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Open mike 09/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 9th, 2021 - 179 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

179 comments on “Open mike 09/10/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    Up close & personal: the preceding negotiations

    • Puckish Rogue 1.1

      Good video

      • Gezza 1.1.1

        Thank you. 👍🏼

        Sweety Pook is the only pūkeko in her whānau to ever let me get that close to her on a regular basis. She came to accept having a 3G clamshell cellcam as close as a foot away from her face, as long as I kept up the soothing patter. (And I had either wheat grains or a bread chunk for her.)

        • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1.1

          Pukekos are probably my favourite bird, with honourable mentions to Keas and Kiwis, due to their comically oversized feet, way they walk and family structure

          • Gezza 1.1.1.1.1

            Yes, they are devoted parents, aunts, uncles & cousins. All the adults, & any adolescents that can fly, share in the feeding, protection & raising of new pooklets.

            Bluey, the koro, always bedded down with the new pooklets every night until they were old enuf to build their own solitary sleeping nests, like all the older birds.

            They are fastidious house cleaners too. Every morning Bluey and/or the other birds would dump old bedding in a little rubbish heap a foot or two away from the pooklets’ nest, and they’s all pull out new grass and lay it down as fresh bedding.

            Once the rubbish heap got too big, Bluey would build another nest somewhere else.
            then call the pooklets to come to that one at bedtime. It was a sweet thing to observe – dad calling the kids to bed for the night. 😀

            And I noticed they prefer to walk to where they want to go. Even if they CAN fly directly to their destination, they almost always land a few metres away, & walk the last bit of distance.

            Watching these birds walk, it’s very easy to see that their ancestors were raptor dinosaurs.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.2

          Hi Gezza, that's really great. On the edge of Lake Rotorua at Kawaha Point we had a Kereru which would let us come really close, about 1 metre away. We had a dish we'd place segments of plum, and each morning it would arrive sit on the rail close to the dish . It would take a piece in its beak and manoeuvre it to swallow it whole. We cut the pieces smaller scared we'd choke it. So lovely to be so close. That was 10 years ago, we have the photos packed away somewhere lol.

          • Gezza 1.1.1.2.1

            How neat ! Kereru are big birds. That’d be something to see. These days I never take a photo, I always take a video clip, & leave my cellcams on the default setting to video after last use. I make frequent use of the zoom too. Every shot that looks good as a pic, imo looks even better as a short live action video clip.

            The birdsong along the stream at my place starts really early, before dawn. Like, 5 am or even earlier some days. I throw the kitchen windows open if I’m up early. As well as the sparrows & blackbirds, I usually have a song thrush putting out its full, enchanting repertoire.

            And this morning I had about 15 minutes of a shining cuckoo’s song or call. (Other names: shining bronze-cuckoo, pipiwharauroa, pīpīwharauroa.) It’s a very distinctive call, once you know what you’re listening for, from a most unusual-looking bird that is quite often heard but rarely actually seen by anyone in a tree. It eventually moved upstream, I could hear its call receding in the distance.

            https://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/shining-cuckoo

        • Visubversa 1.1.1.3

          She will love you more if you bring her dog food. Pukeko will hunt in packs to take chicks from other less aggressive birds. I have seen them take coot chicks and ducklings in Western Springs Park.

          • garibaldi 1.1.1.3.1

            …..and the bloody puks will raid your orchard and your veges. Also horribly aggressive to other species of birds. You can probably gather I hate the bloody things, especially the way they make out they are so "sweet".

            • Gezza 1.1.1.3.1.1

              Yes, if one attacks, they all attack. It’s a family affair.

              Mine weren’t particularly aggressive with other birds (one whanau can sometimes behave quite differently from another one, even just down the road, researchers have noted). Sometimes one might rear up & stab a mallard duck in the back if it had barged into the middle of a group of them & was hoovering up too many wheat grains.

              Or if a rapacious mallard drake or hen had bowled over one of their pooklets in their mad rush to get in on a free feast. But most often I wound up with both ducks & pūkekos eating in the same space without any aggro.

              Ivan The Terrible was a mallard drake who would attack all the pooks for no other reason than he wanted all the food that was going solely for himself! He was so aggressive they all fled from him.

              If you encounter unusually aggressive pūkekos, there’ll be pooklets hiding in foliage near them that they aggressively protect. They go straight on the offensive if the kids are nearby.

              • In Vino

                Hmmm. My dear old Mum (when I was a toddler) was feeding bread to mamma duck and tiny new ducklings that had walked up from the lake at the bottom of our section.. She saw a lonely pukeko prancing (they do walk funny) up from the rear. 'Oh, that poor, shy pukeko!' she thought, and especially threw a large piece of bread to land right in front of it. It pranced by the bread, then suddenly rushed and violently pecked a tiny duckling around the neck, and bolted off with it.

                My dear old Mum hated pukeko for the rest of her life, and encouraged us to set our pet dogs onto them. Not that they ever caught one.

                They are a clever, tough breed, and will be one of the last to become a threatened species.

    • weka 1.2

      the balance!

      Close ups of the pukeko feet is fantastic.

      • Gezza 1.2.1

        Yes. They all learn very quickly how to walk along the fence paling tops. Even when a strong gust of wind hits them, they just put their wings out – like a tightrope walker’s arms – to keep their balance, & keep on carefully strolling along the fence.

        Those long toes/talons can easily grip both sides of the palings, hence their dexterity in fence-walking.

        They are prodigious climbers too. They’ll walk-climb right up an erect tree branch to the top, if in the mood.

      • JanM 1.2.2

        I just wish they had more road sense! I live 20k out of Whangarei and nearly every time I travel in to town there are at least 2 sad bundles of feathers on the road 😥

        • Gezza 1.2.2.1

          It’s because they so like to walk everywhere. The silly sods don’t use their wings to fly up & over the roads.

          My Pook family has now moved on downstream – the side of the stream bank where they used to build their sleeping & pooklet nests has been steadily eroding away with each heavy-rainfall-induced full flow event & all that remains where they used to have some flat or gently sloping spaces is now a sheer cliff face – not safe for raising pooklets, who’d fall into the water when very tiny.

          I was always telling my Pook family 🐧 newbies 🐧🐧 to STAY OFF THE ROADS 🚷 & stick by the stream!

          There’s a typical light breeze blowing, but it’s a warm one & it’s a gorgeous morning in North Welly. Going to go & get out in it & do some light weeding & gardening.

        • weka 1.2.2.2

          It's also because when one gets killed, the other tend to hang around 🙁

          Humans can and will build tunnels for dairy cows to walk under roads, why not wildlife? Or bridges.

    • mary_a 1.3

      Thanks again Gezza. I could see Sweety pook's brain working there. And my God the size of those feet! You certainly have her trust. Being deaf, I was unable to hear the audio, but the video tells a wonderful story as alwayslaugh

  2. dv 2

    I am curious how this traveler in to northland got a travel permit on false info?

    Then the permit was rejected the info was found to be false.

    If it was eventually found to be false, why were those checks not done initially?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-northland-into-level-3-warning-cases-could-spiral-out-of-control-if-auckland-restrictions-ease/WYN42Y2ZHS6H5HOT26JIUILYHU/

    • Treetop 2.1

      A person could go across a level zone and have a legit reason and then moonlight as a sex worker, courier, thief, do money laundering and wear an expensive suit or an exclusive designer lable.

      It is about the safety of people when it comes to contact tracing and the transmission of Covid.

      There needs to be a process to inform contacts when it might not be safe for the person who falsified information and it needs to be done from the inside.

      There are clues and even using the time frame and a close location is important.

      • dv 2.1.1

        That would be suggesting the illicit activity, then was noted and travel pass was rejected. Which is feasible.

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.2

        Maybe they should have given sex workers essential worker status in level three..fast food and fast sex, not my bag personally, but I can see how it could be a thing for a lot of people.

        • Treetop 2.1.2.1

          A fixed address used for a brothel so a motel is not used.

          Basically where you can and cannot operate during a pandemic.

          We all get hungry and enjoy fast food. So a location of interest on all fast food outlets over a time frame in the areas visited..

  3. Ad 3

    Five days, no contacts other than 2 petrol stations, forged "essential worker" documents.

    When the name comes out she's going to be the most famous prostitute in New Zealand.

    Sex education will change that's for sure.

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      When she said she offered extras she wasn't kidding angel

    • Treetop 3.2

      The onus is now on people to get tested and to adhere to level 3 restrictions.

      I would be very disappointed that a person is not cooperating. Covid is Covid regardless of how it enters your community.

      • Jester 3.2.1

        They should detain her until she co operates. Are they allowed to imprison her?

        • chris T 3.2.1.1

          I am not 100% sure about this, so could be talking complete shit, but have heard in various interviews with suppossed experts that they can call in some pretty draconian powers with a pandemic like holding people.

          Pretty hazy stuff I think from my googling.

          • Andre 3.2.1.1.1

            Section 70 of the Health Act 1956:

            e)

            require persons to report themselves or submit themselves for medical examination at specified times and places:

            (ea)

            if the spread of the disease would be a significant risk to the public, require people to report, or submit themselves for medical testing, at stated times and places:

            (f)

            require persons, places, buildings, ships, vehicles, aircraft, animals, or things to be isolated, quarantined, or disinfected as he thinks fit:

            (fa)

            if the spread of the disease would be a significant risk to the public, require people, places, buildings, ships, vehicles, aircraft, animals, or things to be tested as he or she thinks fit:

            Those clauses are not time limited. So yeah, personally, I would not want the Director General of Health thinking I might be in need of some kind of incentive to be co-operative with an infectious disease investigation.

        • Treetop 3.2.1.2

          People on trial have the right to remain silent. So detaining the person does not mean they will cooperate.

          Detaining when a health issue is another matter, so is falsifying information.

          • Jester 3.2.1.2.1

            good point.

          • Forget now 3.2.1.2.2

            If it even gets to trial; Treetop! This stuck in my craw a bit when I first read it, but in retrospect it is a small price for information leading to the securing of her companion whose location is as yet unknown. Better to be practical than vengeful where public safety is concerned:

            The woman has not given a reason for being in Te Tai Tokerau and has not been open about her movements.

            Covid-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins is not ruling out dropping charges against the woman, in a bid to cut a deal for her cooperation.

            He said the woman has not been providing information to health officials, and he will consider options which might encourage her to be more open.

            Hipkins said sometimes taking a hard line makes it less likely someone will cooperate, and if there are things officials could do to help her be more open, then the government will look at that.

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453220/iwi-led-border-controls-back-in-northland-as-region-enters-alert-level-3

  4. Jenny how to get there 4

    Why isn't Northland at Alert Level 4

    • Ad 4.1

      There aren't enough places of interest in Northland

      • Puckish Rogue 4.1.1

        Burn!

        • Ad 4.1.1.1

          I'm from the far north with old family farms and relatives in both Kerikeri and inland of Whangaroa. Hard case people.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.1.2

        devillaugh We lived at Kaukapakapa in the 50’s for 3 years and travelled up to the Bay of Islands when there were hardly any other holiday makers except in the campsites. It was beautiful clean and full of kaimoana.

    • GreenBus 4.2

      I thought L4 was history, not gonna use it anymore. L3.25 is the new L4? Then again, the Traffic Light system is gonna replace Levels stystem so I guess we trust they know what they are doing. A lot of people are worried looking at comments last few days.

      • miravox 4.2.1

        "L3.25 is the new L4?"

        Maybe they could just make up an equation or something that looks cool, say
        [L= (R0/vaccination rate) x π] or something
        – I'm sure an actual mathematician could make up a credible one – for the alert levels, but which is as hard to decipher and meaningless as the ones we have right now.

      • Treetop 4.2.2

        I am still trying to get my head around why people swim outside the flags at the beach when they need to swim between the flags.

        I saw the changes made in the UK when it came to what the Covid restrictions were. People ended up being confused about what they were suppose to do and threw the towel in telling the mayor/government to f off.

        Wrong time to implement the traffic light system. Government need to focus on vaccination uptake.

        • Gezza 4.2.2.1

          “I am still trying to get my head around why people swim outside the flags at the beach when they need to swim between the flags.”
          ……………………………

          My theory? In any given population of sufficient size there will always a group of individualistic rule breakers for whom virtually any rule MUST be broken, by them, regardless of whether the rule makes sense or not. It’s a character flaw.

          Also in any population of sufficient size, there will also be a group of people who basically have no mind of their own, who will see someone else rebel against a rule, & who will copy their behaviour, mistakenly thinking they are being individualistic rule-breakers themselves. They’re not: they’re just “followers”.

          A given number of people in both these groups wind up being ideal candidates for Darwin Awards, because some are just plain stupid, which is probably why their numbers don’t tend to increase over time.

          • Treetop 4.2.2.1.1

            Being accident prone due to making poor choices is not a defence.

            • Gezza 4.2.2.1.1.1

              Indeed, it is NOT. 👍🏼

              Altho I have met one individual in my life whose poor choices and/or really stupid instant decisions, & the resulting matching accidents, occurred with such regularity, & often such severe consequences, I concluded I had finally met a real-life jinx. Fortunately for his friends & loved ones, he only ever seemed to jinx himself.
              Though he was a most likely a source of constant worry for them.

              The kind of guy who would stand in the bathtub to paint the bathroom wall, holding the paint can, & then “step back” to admire his work, forgetting he was still standing in the bathtub – result, injured back & blue paint everwhere, all over the bathroom, the floor, the fittings….

              • Anne

                Got a brother like that. He drove his car into a muddy quagmire once and then couldn't get it out of course. When asked why he did it in the first place he didn't know. Just one example.

                They seem incapable of thinking things through before they act. Probably got a medical name but don't know what it is.

                • Patricia Bremner

                  I had an uncle who was a dreamy like that, a walking disaster and yet lived to 98. I'm not sure how.

                  Once in the 50’s he was tamping dynamite around a large broom bush.

                  The dynamite was sweating and it went off before he was ready!!

                  My Dad remarked at the time "Bill should have realised it had sweated and become unstable.. He worked in the mine long enough."

                  His only injury was a flash burn in which he lost his eyebrows.

                  There are several stories all similar. A survivor.

  5. Adrian 5

    I was under the impression that levels would generally stay but the traffic lights determine stop or go for individual places like pubs, restaurants and gigs etc, meaning different colours for vaccine status and other protections like green for full vacc, passports, sign-ins, masks etc.

  6. Adrian 6

    At least the divorce lawyer economy is going to boom in Northland. Name and shame for the complicit to circumvent border controls clients is going to be fun, get your popcorn here.

  7. ianmac 7

    A lesson found on the New York Times. We are facing the same dilemmas.

    SINGAPORE — The vaccines were supposed to be the ticket out of the pandemic. But in Singapore, things did not go according to plan.

    The Southeast Asian city-state was widely considered a success story in its initial handling of the coronavirus. It closed its borders, tested and traced aggressively and was one of the first countries in Asia to order vaccines.

    A top politician told the public that an 80 percent vaccination rate was the criterion for a phased reopening. Singapore has now fully inoculated 83 percent of its population, but instead of opening up, it is doing the opposite.

    In September, with cases doubling every eight to 10 days, the government reinstated restrictions on gatherings. The United States said its citizens should reconsider travel to the country. Long lines started forming at the emergency departments in several hospitals. People were told once again they should work from home.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/world/asia/singapore-vaccine-covid.html

    • Treetop 7.1

      Vaccination alone has its limitations. Without vaccinations all hell would break loose. So other measures which work alongside vaccination is required.

      The countries who have opened up have opened up to new strains of Covid. I think it is important to not introduce new strains as the Pfizer vaccine may not be enough.

      I'd rather take the turtle approach and not the hare.

      Once new effective treatments are available it will not be as important to rely on vaccination.

      Two things I am following is the new Mu strain and hope in the quillay tree.

      • ianmac 7.1.1

        It is so tough being the Prime Minister. Imagine the stress involved in deciding which course to take. We are damned regardless. And people's lives are at risk.

        However, there are reports that in India, Japan and Brazil incidence of infection are inexplicably dropping. Hope?

        • Treetop 7.1.1.1

          I do hope that the PM has drawn a firm line between her public and private life.

          Covid is for scientists to solve and politicians to manage measures to lessen the impact and uncertainty due to Covid.

        • Bearded Git 7.1.1.2

          Or they are not testing in those countries..possibly dubious figures. Remember the Economist said a couple of weeks ago that the Covid death toll is 18m not 4.5m as reported.

  8. weka 8

    this is damning. Fuck National, and fuck NZF who would have known about this man's unjust conviction when the blocked Labour from repealing the three strikes law.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-strikes-law-supreme-court-rejects-hefty-prison-sentence-for-unwanted-kiss/KXJFJBC3OBKEGF5AV43JPGIYPQ/

    • miravox 8.1

      Parliament didn't intend for the three-strikes law to result in sentences that violate the Bill of Rights or New Zealand's international human rights obligations, the justices found.

      Hmmm – I'll wager those who voted for this law didn't care. They had been advised on this point.

      Happy though, for this little fiction if it was required for this unjust sentence to be discarded.

    • Pete 8.2

      Stories like this won't make the hang-rope wielding National and Act supporters change their minds about the three strikes law.

      They'll redirect their attention and inclination to the judges who point out the madness.

      • weka 8.2.1

        yeah but NACT aren't in government, Labour are and should do something about this when they get a moment.

        • Puckish Rogue 8.2.1.1

          What we need is maximum security hospitals, stand alone facilties, with doctors, psych, nurses and officers

          But I doubt any party would have the guts to do right thing

          • weka 8.2.1.1.1

            Not sure this man should be incarcerated at all. It's possible he needs community support and we're just shit at it.

            Also not sure why he would need to be in maximum security hospital. If he needs psychiatric care, wouldn't one of the locked wards suffice?

            Don't we have high security psych wards already? There's one in Dunedin I think.

            • Puckish Rogue 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Sorry on a phone so not typing as much as I should

              When I said psych hospital that's max security I didn't mean all wards but that it needs to have at least one max security ward and lower security for others

              Not too sure how the psych wards work, I know some guys from the ISU ward in Christchurch Mens get transferred to Hillmorton but I also know know they say a prisoners behaviour is "behavioural" therefore they won't take him

              • joe90

                Kids too. Once they're deemed as having a personality disorder they're bounced from psych services and social workers/youth justice are on their own.

  9. chris T 9

    Apologies. Posted this on the review thread by accident. But find it interesting and funny. And worth resurrecting on the right one

    Pretty funny watching an irrelevant Winston Peters getting air time on the Nation, pretending to slag off the party he personally decided would be govt.

    Edit: And probably will again given his beef with the Nats if by some miracle he gets the chance again.

    People take the opportunistic idiot seriously though. Which I continue to find odd.

    • garibaldi 9.1

      Me too chrisT. He's a chameleon alright and I don't know why anybody trusts him.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1

        Agreed

        • Gezza 9.1.1.1

          My werking assumption is that for a certain proportion it’s memory problems, for some others, they’ve simply not been voting for enuf to be aware of his track record, & finally, for some, they just enjoy watching him having fun, playing merry hell with the opposition or the government, depending on what side of the House he’s on this term. He IS hugely entertaining.

          And he’s also got the benefit of having done a lot of good for pensioners, been a very solid Foreign Minister, twice, & quite a dependable Deputy PM.

          • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1.1.1

            I will forever be grateful for that decision to go with Jacinda Ardern and Labour.. I don't think Winston really realised what she would be like and how much of a favour he did all of us.

            I hope this latest battle with delta does not cloud people's judgement. Remember we have been safe from covid pretty much for two years.

            Delta is a different beast, and vaccines masks and bubble selection will be necessary for those of us with co-morbidities.

            The young will quickly take on the risk after vaccination, as they do when driving riding motorbikes and indulging in adrenalin rush activities and contact sports.
            But they need help with education instead of becoming “cheap wages.”

            Spit tests masks general behaviours and even new laws may protect us to a degree, but there is no way business is supporting lock downs anymore, because the support was not there with a mortgage and rental moratorium for the lock down period imo.

            Equity means we have to own the difficult starting place at the outset for many groups.

            Poor food poor housing low incomes, add to that fear of authority and the effects of the lawless element involved in drugs in their neighbourhood.

            This delta virus is cruel in large families holding down casual work and unsociable hours. Any of them influenced by misinformation on the internet not vaccinated are sitting ducks for delta. It spreads in crowded households very rapidly.

            We have to stop being judgemental and resource their leadership to gain traction. This a crisis and needs swift assistance and care. Otherwise we will lose thousands and will be horrified.

            We should not let these leaders of capitalism get away with silly whingeing. We should email. facebook tweet, whatever to say 'you have lost custom with that selfish stance BAU has gone.' The sooner we convince them of that, the better off we will all be.

            We also need to convince our Leaders to stay the course.

            Treasury and Business predicted "-15% GDP… we were 5+% So they were 20% out in their take on things.. why are we listening now? Keep hopeful and follow the advice. That has served us well. We have done well up to now..

            We do need to support the marginalized, even when they don't help. Look at the self appointed Apostle. We are awaiting the fall out from that.

      • chris T 9.1.2

        Key had the right idea years ago, when he just told him to f off before the election.

        Basically cut off his nuts as a problem

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-rules-out-any-nz-first-deal/2H7RMVGJBDQXGOKLIMJSWCYPX4/

        Whoever is leading the Nats at the next election would be wise to do the same I think.

  10. Anne 10

    This is beyond pathetic! Trying to make a story out of a handful of text messages between Siouxsie Wiles and Ashley Bloomfield.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-siouxsie-wiles-to-ashley-bloomfield-lets-get-vaccinated-together-on-the-sky-tower-texts-show/6SL5TWWE2E7AJJFKRHNGICYLMM/

    Following the Slater controversy, Bloomfield said he had been in touch with Wiles by text message.

    Those text messages between Wiles and Bloomfield were released under the Official Information Act.

    Wiles and the Ministry of Health have been approached for comment.

    So, a couple of people who know each other are not allowed to communicate with one another? Jesus!

    • Gezza 10.1

      Speaks volumes for how low churnalism has sunk these days. This is old style Women’s Magazine or Entertainment Tonight celebrity gossip stuff.

    • weka 10.2

      whoever did the OIA must have been disappointed. All pretty mundane.

  11. Foreign waka 11

    And all the while the law in NZ ruled that a woman's soul belongs to her husband:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126570671/artist-broken-after-judge-rules-copyright-of-her-work-must-be-shared-in-divorce

    Back to the 16th century and its not surprising how women are now seen. No, not just body, its now the mind too! Its back to being a "property".

    For all artists out there, make sure your copy right is strictly secured in a trust because this is the corporate model and well protected.

    I hope that some high powered women have a thing or two to say to this because it will be their innovations, their inventions, their input next.

    • JanM 11.1

      Yes I was absolutely digusted when I read this – she'll have that limpet attached to her for the rest of his life! Would make a good episode of Why Women Kill IMO

      • Treetop 11.1.1

        I couldn't have worded it any better.

        I would buy from the artist.

        How would a person know who they were buying from?

      • Gezza 11.1.2

        It works the other way round too, tho, doesn't it?

        Limpet ex-female partners or ex-wives hanging off their male ex-partner's or ex-husband's well-paying skills or talents?

        Surely this is about the equal application of matrimonial property law?

        • Treetop 11.1.2.1

          The other way around makes no difference. It is about the future proceeds of the artists copyright. I would still only buy from the artist.

          • Treetop 11.1.2.1.1

            When it comes to the division of the matrimonial property, it is not a one off like a house sale so it is not limited.

    • joe90 11.2

      When one builds a successful business, a former partner is entitled to their share of assets gained. Why should a copyright asset be treated differently?

      • weka 11.2.2

        income from copyright assets maybe, but not ownership of the copyright itself, that's a problem.

        • joe90 11.2.2.1

          Why should copyright ownership as a money making asset be treated differently to any other money making asset sold to settle a relationship property dispute?

          • weka 11.2.2.1.1

            because art/creativity is personal and to tie it into a broken relationship like this is anti-human and anti-community. The ex can benefit financially but shouldn't retain control of someone's career.

            I guess a comparison might be the family home. If they come to an agreement, she keeps the home and live in it with the kids, he gets bought out and gives up control of the asset. But even if they don't sell, he shouldn't have keys to the house. There's an obvious conflict of interest.

            • joe90 11.2.2.1.1.1

              Enduring years of financial hardship and spending every waking hour creating an income producing asset isn't personal?

              Obliging someone to return to former hardships and demands isn't controlling someone's career?

              And TBF, the comparison is that the occupant pays the market price to rent the part of the home they don't own. Zip to do with access.

              • Descendant Of Smith

                lol.

                "anti-community"

                Copyright itself is anti-community. Prevents things being in the commons. Stops art and music being the very product of communities by invoking ownership.

                • weka

                  If I write a book, and it's not copyrighted, then someone can take that work and sell it as their own. That's not the commons, that's capitalism.

                  • weka

                    you might not be wrong about it being anti-community, but I'd like to see a better model.

                  • Descendant Of Smith

                    Capitalism surely is the application of rules to create monopolies and to control the printing of material. Copyright has a long history of reducing the rights of citizens to freely disseminate information and knowledge.

                    The very notion of ideas forming in a vacuum and not through building on others work and knowledge is a capitalist one. Copyright itself is essentially a monopoly – in fact was once called that.

                    Early copyright privileges were called "monopolies," particularly during the reign of Queen Elizabeth, who frequently gave grants of monopolies in articles of common use, such as salt, leather, coal, soap, cards, beer, and wine. The practice was continued until the Statute of Monopolies was enacted in 1623, ending most monopolies, with certain exceptions, such as patents; after 1623, grants of Letters patent to publishers became common.

                    "As the "menace" of printing spread, governments established centralized control mechanisms, and in 1557 the English Crown thought to stem the flow of seditious and heretical books by chartering the Stationers' Company. The right to print was limited to the members of that guild, and thirty years later the Star Chamber was chartered to curtail the "greate enormities and abuses" of "dyvers contentyous and disorderlye persons professinge the arte or mystere of pryntinge or selling of books."

                    And so on and so on. All designed to control and repress. This continues in modern times where copyright is affectionately known in the US as The Mickey Mouse law. Each time Mickey Mouse is due to come out of copyright the US extends the copyright period.

                    It should be by now in the commons. Walt Disney is long departed. He cannot make any more money out of it. There are plenty of artists who had their copyright owned by recording companies who made a fortune while the artist made zilch. The notion that copyright supports artists is nonsense much of the time even today – just look at Taylor Swift who is having to re-record her own albums as she does not own her own copyright to the original albums.

                    Copyright should be non-monopolistic for a start. The original author/artist/artists should always have the continued right in law to work they have created – they can sell it to corporates but they should always be able to sell their own works themselves (an alienable right) – corporate exclusivity to copyright should be forbidden. If an artist is not happy with a publisher they have sold rights to then they should be free to sell to another publisher / give permission to another to publish. That would be competition. you look after your artist, pay them a fair share or they can choose to go somewhere else. Upon death all published work should revert to the commons (though there should be some limited provision for supporting surviving families say 10 years) – none for surviving corporates.

                    I can publish and bring the joy of Anna Sewells – Black Beauty to anyone tomorrow or Treasure Island or Gone With The Wind – all the artists are dead and they belong to the commons.

                    We lose so much creativity due to copyright – it is restrictive not empowering.

              • weka

                You've missed the point. Yes, building up a business is personal. But afaik it's the monetary value that gets split in divorce not the control of the actual business. In this case the ex wants control of copyright of some of the paintings in perpetuity i.e. they get to say what happens to the paintings, reproductions etc. They want to make reproductions of single art works against the artists will.

                This would be analogous to someone having a business, getting married, running the business on their own, getting divorced and the ex not just getting a financial split but having a say in the business post-divorce against the will of the person whose business it is.

                • weka

                  But you know, have at it arguing for capitalistic values.

                • felix

                  Is that not how it usually works though? Would half of the shares in a revenue-producing business not usually go to the former spouse?

                • KJT

                  That is exactly what does happen.

                  In fact it is control of the business that is split.
                  The shares.

                  In a 50/50 relationship split, of a business that is “relationship property”, both partners have an equal say, and share in future earnings. Just as they do in the “family home”. (There is an exception for family homes when children are involved, which usually works in favour of the woman in the relationship BTW).

                  The ruling is entirely consistent with the general divorce law principle, of an equal split of “relationship property”.

          • Foreign waka 11.2.2.1.2

            OMG

    • KJT 11.3

      That has been the rule for decades.

      Earnings a partner makes while they are together, including future earnings in a business one partner owns or starts are part of the settlement on a divorce/split

    • Gypsy 11.4

      The court appears to have ruled that Intellectual Property is no different to any other property brought into the relationship (not subject to a PRA) or created/acquired during it. I'm guessing inventions, authored works etc would also be captured.

      The law isn't interested in the artists 'feelings'. The issue is whether the property has economic value. Clearly it does.

      • weka 11.4.1

        Peak capitalism

        • Ad 11.4.1.1

          Peak equality

          • weka 11.4.1.1.1

            we should get over that and look for fairness instead.

            • Gypsy 11.4.1.1.1.1

              IMHO the outcome is fair. If he has built up a business, for example, she will be entitled to one half of either it's ongoing returns or it's net present value (as determined by a valuation).

              • weka

                the issue isn't division of finances, it's that the court is giving the ex control of copyright. That's a different thing.

                Another example would be someone was a writer, got married, wrote a book, got divorced, and the ex was given control of the book copyright, could sell the rights to someone to make a shitty film of the book. That's far beyond a fair split of assets.

                • Gypsy

                  In your example, the ex wouldn't get 'control' of the copyright, because that would be shared 50/50.

                  But that aside, copyright is simply another form of property. It is an asset in the same way architectural drawings or software would be. It would be perverse indeed if the work product of one partner in a relationshiop was somehow protected from relationship property.

            • Joe90 11.4.1.1.1.2

              There's nothing fair about the rent seeking nature of copyright.

          • Foreign waka 11.4.1.1.2

            No more art then, just commercial junk. Great advancement for humanity. Bravo.

            • Ad 11.4.1.1.2.1

              Sirpa's paintings really are commercial junk. They are as close to high art as McDonald's are to the French Cafe. Most of them wouldn't make the cut of a Mambo t-shirt.

              If you use your spouse as a muse then divorce them, you deserve to give what you owe. Male or female.

    • vto 11.5

      The judgment lines up with all other case law about the ownership of property created during a partnership. It is shared equally, all else being equal …

      I don't even know why this was a story

      • Gypsy 11.5.1

        Agreed.

      • Foreign waka 11.5.2

        Because we are not talking about the pictures but any creative outcome in the future being deemed intellectual property. OMG NZ, imagine you do this to Maori.

        • Descendant Of Smith 11.5.2.1

          That wasn't my reading of the decision. The shared copyright only related to items created while they were together.

          • Patricia Bremner 11.5.2.1.1

            A limit should be agreed in writing as to the number of prints and other reiterations or the value could be devalued The actual art does not matter It is the principle and the precedent set. Does this situation require a trust?

            • KJT 11.5.2.1.1.1

              It is not setting a precedent.

              It has been the same with "relationship property" for decades now.

              Just that more often it is a male partners earnings/assets that are split.

              I know one at the moment, where the woman in the relationship wants half of all property, including the business, but is trying to leave her male partner with 100% of the debt.

      • bwaghorn 11.5.3

        It's a thing because the artist is a woman, it's how some at "the standard "roll

  12. weka 12

    Hone Harawira on RNZ last night about Northland, from Te Tai Tokerau perspectives. Worth a listen. He's focused on border control.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/nights/audio/2018815670/hone-harawira-raises-concerns-as-covid-19-seeps-into-northland

    Should we be looking at regional border control strategies where that is relatively easy to do? South Island/North Island. Otago and Southland share a border with Canterbury with only three road accesses (thanks to the Waitaki River), and a border with the West Coast with one road access.

    The vaccination programme is a major tool, but I don't think it's going to give us quite the freedom many seem to think it is even if we get to 90+%. We should be thinking further than the next 6 months.

    • Gezza 12.1

      I thought the government pretty much IS implementing regional border controls now?

      How is what you are proposing significantly different, weka?

      • weka 12.1.1

        I was thinking pre-emptively rather than reactively. eg if the South Island and North Island were separated to prevent delta from getting to the SI, what would that look like? It would affect air travel, ferries, shipping and land freight. Supply lines would be one logistical issue, travelling another.

        My question here is what will people be willing to do to keep a place covid-free ie support the elimination strategy?

        From a future proofing, climate prep, sustainability perspective, there are lots of potential gains eg relocalising economies, relocalising food production, slow travel.

        I think there would need to be careful consideration given to not creating stigma for areas that have delta.

        Mostly I'm thinking about how neoliberalism is pushing us towards 'live with covid', and the parallel conversations about climate action/relocalisation, and covid prevention, need to merge. It's business's failure to adapt to a more secure world now that's the problem eg tourism still banking on the borders opening while health sector people are saying no, we shouldn't be opening the borders. The sooner businesses can adapt and make the most of opportunities for long term stability with the multiple crises the better. The public pushing these narratives would help.

        • Forget now 12.1.1.1

          The southern & eastern borders of level 3 Waikato are too big to effectively control. It is only a matter of time now until Delta creeps down to Wellington. Gray & Baker may be right that Cook Straight is a more practical border:

          "I worry that we will see spread, we're already seeing spread north, I think we will see spread south and we as a population should not really be prepared to accept this. We've done so well in the last 18 to 20 months."

          She said the messaging from the government to do with loosened restrictions had been confusing.

          "This week has been quite confusing for lots of people… I would urge communities, particularly in areas with lower vaccination rates, whatever the reason for those low vaccination rates, I would say to everybody, the population, we've just got to behave as if we're still in level 4…

          {Baker} said one option is a regional approach which would mean a suppression policy could be used in Auckland, while the rest of the country and particularly the South Island could continue to strive to eliminate the virus.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453208/easing-auckland-s-restrictions-a-very-risky-strategy-public-health-expert

          Though I think that falling back all the way to the Waitaki is conceding too much; Weka. The Waiau, plus the 3 passes (Lewis, Arthurs & Haast) are quite as defensible in a managed retreat if boaties won't keep clear of the Sounds and northern coast of Te Waipounamu.

          But planning for the worst is not admitting defeat, even if it may seem like a self fulfilling prophecy as we watch the slow moving trainwreck up in Te Ikanui.

          To transition safely, we propose four key tenets. First, nations need to retain flexible and short-term NPIs {non-pharmaceutical interventions} based on the changing epidemiology and hospital capacities and be steadfast in implementing NPIs even when there is a rise in infections from reopening. Second, nations need to ensure maximum vaccination coverage while taking into account risk prioritisation, vaccine dose sparing, and equity principles. Third, the disparate impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic have highlighted the need for more targeted and commensurate relief, to shield to an extent industries and vulnerable groups from the unintended consequences resulting from sustained NPIs. Fourth, nations need to foster extensive surveillance and stronger community social responsibility to detect and isolate COVID-19 cases quickly through more self-testing and home-based isolation while transferring risk assessment skills from institutions to individuals through codesigned risk communication and community engagement strategies, so communities can understand and mitigate their own risks.

          https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02186-3/fulltext

          • weka 12.1.1.1.1

            Thanks for the Baker reference, will have a listen to the audio.

            I wasn't thinking about falling back to the Waitaki, so much as the South Island being distinct from the NI, and within the SI looking at the natural geography as a way of partitioning areas if necessary.

            • Nelson/Marlborough (don't know exactly where those natural boundaries are with Canterbury)
            • West Coast
            • Canterbury
            • South of the Waitaki and Haast
            • Stewart Island
            • Chathams

            Yeah, the small boats might be an issue in the Sounds and Fiordland. But it's about having low risk not no risk.

  13. joe90 13

    Certainly won't be the first time the fuckers indulge in a little price gouging.

    The company producing an experimental antiviral pill for Covid-19 treatment is accused of selling the drug to the US at 40 times the cost of its production, found a report.

    Molnupiravir, manufactured by pharmaceutical company Merck, has entered into a contract with the US government to supply 1.7 million courses at a price of $700 per course. However, an analysis of drug pricing by Harvard School of Public Health and King’s College Hospital in London found that it takes about $17.74 to produce a five-day course.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-merck-covid-pill-cost-b1933100.html

    • Andre 13.1

      I kinda wonder how many people that won't get vaccinated, because of BigPharma profiteering off vaccines and because the vaccine is too new, will be demanding stockpiles of this stuff every time they get a sniffle.

      • joe90 13.1.1

        Just a word from TFG and they will.

        • Andre 13.1.1.1

          Put out the word that that's where they've really put the microchips, and there's nothing Donnie One-Term could say that would make them take it.

          • Editractor 13.1.1.1.1

            Or tell them that it might change their DNA.

            Oh wait, it actually might:

            "Well, auxh nucleosides [including molnupiravir] can also be taken up by many other enzymes, including those that handle our own nucleic acids, so some of them are mutagenic." https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/molnupiravir-last-small-molecule-coronavirus-hopes

            • Andre 13.1.1.1.1.1

              Yeah, when I first read about how it worked, my reaction was holee phuc, Incredible Hulk here we come!.

              Since then, biochemistry academic friends and family and a bunch of technical articles have explained to me why it causes viral mRNA replication to get fucked up, but actual human mRNA replication doesn't get fooled. I'm fairly sure I don't properly understand it, so I'm definitely not gonna try to explain to anyone else.

              But still, that mode of action scares me enough that I really hope I'm never in the position of considering whether to take it. The prospect of actual covid hospitalisation would be pretty persuasive tho.

              • RedLogix

                That and the totally nil long-term safety data – no thanks.

                Still it might turn out as a useful horse de-wormer.

      • bwaghorn 13.1.2

        Funny thing is when I first read about this pill, I thought hmmm not sure I'm keen on it this early, yet I had no problem getting vaxxed

    • chris T 13.2

      Was reading about this the other day. Extremely cool stuff, but geezes pharma can be pricks when it comes to wanting ott profit.

      • Andre 13.2.1

        Extremely cool stuff

        Well, it's only roughly 50% effective in preventing hospitalisations. That's kinda feeble compared to the vaccine's 80% to 90% effectiveness in preventing hospitalisations.

        There were too few test subjects to be confident about the effect on deaths, bet that there were eight deaths in something like 370 patients in the placebo arm, vs no deaths in 370ish patients in the treatment arm is certainly better than having those numbers the other way around.

        • chris T 13.2.1.1

          Sorry. Meant cool as a concept if it turns out to be an option for those unable to have the vaccine, due to severe reaction.

          50% for them would be better than 0% I would hazard a guess

  14. joe90 14

    Oh to be designated a deputy fire/hangi watcher and get to be parked up in that chair.

  15. Gezza 16

    FFS: Yet another one 😡

    Are we getting one gang-related fitearms incident a day lately? Or is it one every 2nd day, on average? There sure do seem to be a helluva a lot of these…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/453228/person-seriously-injured-in-firearms-incident-in-mt-roskill

    • Gezza 16.1

      🙄 *firearms

      • chris T 16.1.1

        Currently can't comment even though I would like to. Due to it probably ending in another suspension.

        So I will just say, I agree. Seems worryingly common atm

    • Puckish Rogue 16.2

      This is obviously fake news.

      Everyone knows that the firearms handed back and the ban on semi auto centre fire rifles means that these incidents are less likely to happen.

  16. observer 17

    Cognitive dissonance update:

    2020: "We rule out Winston Peters. We can't trust his word" … Simon Bridges, National leader.

    2021: "We choose to believe everything Winston tells us" …

    • Gezza 17.1

      Eh?

      Link, please? 😐

    • chris T 17.2

      Do you happen to know Ardern's opinion on teaming up with Winston again after the next election if he is needed to form govt?

      After he has spent the last month of finally being open to the media slagging her govt off.

    • Pete 17.3

      A real dilemma for bloggers there and here who say Winston Peters never gives the truth and what he says shouldn't be trusted. Who also say Jacinda Ardern never gives the truth and what she says shouldn't be trusted.

      Having both of them wrong in the women up north scenario I guess means they must know what the real story is. They should get in touch with David Seymour and tell him.

      You see, as expected, David Seymour has chimed in. He wants Hipkins to tell us what he (Hipkins) doesn't know. He should consult those who do know.

      • observer 17.3.1

        And the dissonance gets weirder …

        National and ACT who complain bitterly about the government using the podium at 1 pm for extra media coverage, have today … demanded that the government use the podium at 1 pm for extra media coverage.

        https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/278614-demand-government-to-be-upfront-about-breach.html

        They basically toss a coin: if PM fronts, they say she milks. If PM doesn't, they say she must. (She did front BTW, but not in Wellington … they'll doubtless find some reason to complain about that too).

        • chris T 17.3.1.1

          pretty sure they both want a clearer roadmap than Ardern gave on Monday tbf.

          Like what level we we can go toat such and such vaccinated level, with this many unknown link cases. or no unknown linked cases etc.

          Unfortunately the govt appears to think we are as a country too thick to grasp these obvious scenarios.

          • bwaghorn 17.3.1.1.1

            Kinda hard to draw a road map of uncharted territory !!

            Till you've navigated it ,

            • chris T 17.3.1.1.1.1

              I disagree.

              It is pretty easy to say if we have this % vaccinated (90% or what ever as they won't actually say). This many new cases we can link to the other one. And this many we have no idea, we can't/can/prepare to if possible move to this level

              If any is higher than the following #### this we are screwed for a bit

              She aint rocket science and is what the are doing anyway

              • Pete

                Scenarios. We want scenarios for EVERY possibility.

                "Like someone in such and such a region has tested positive and they visited 27 places in the public in the previous week," in which case we would …" And "three people tested positive but two of visited only one place each," and so we would …"

                So we'll have about ten thousand possible scenarios on a 'paint by numbers' response list and then we can complain that it's too much, we're confused with all the information.

                • chris T

                  Sorry. But that is bollocks.

                  Just a rough idea would help small businesses.

                  This wait till 1pm or 3pm in two weeks time as we can't even give you a rough gauge is getting tiresome.

        • Gezza 17.3.1.2

          I definitely want to know how this sex worker managed to get an exemption letter:

          1. who did she apply to (the org, not the person)
          2. who issued it (same)
          3. what information & evidence was provided to support it
          4. what checks were done, & if none – why none
          5. when did the issuer find out the information provided was false
          6. how did they find out
          7. how long after this was the exemption letter revoked
          8. what steps were taken to get it back from the sex worker, and/or
          9. when & what information was given to the police to be on the lookout for this fraudulently obtained document to get it back off her.
          • dv 17.3.1.2.1

            Good list Gezza.

          • Red Blooded One 17.3.1.2.2

            has it been proven she is a sex worker? I know the accusation is out there but that might just be a Cameron Slater style slur at this stage.

            • Gezza 17.3.1.2.2.1

              No, I don't believe it has. Just watched Newshub on the plus one channel setting out what we know & that she's a sex worker was NOT mentioned. NewsHub being the type of media organisation that it is, they would stress that she is a sex worker if this had been confirmed by a reputable source.

              Even if she's not, that list of questions of mine still stands & the public – especially Northlanders – deserve to know the answers.

              The responsible authorities need to make every effort to ensure this doesn't happen again. Look at the bloody fallout from what looks like a high trust model when a thoroughly untrustworthy individual milked it?

              • observer

                But we seem to be making every effort to guarantee that it happens again.

                You ask valid questions above. But only because we have lockdowns, and rules, a border. Remove those and the questions are gone too.

                If 2 (so far) women are such a big story, what will thousands of people be? Anyone who demands that we "open up" at some arbitrary number (75, 85, whatever) should not get worked up about two people today. After a couple of months of "freedom", and its certain consequences, nobody will remember or care about 2 cases. Or 200.

                "Apply the rules strictly, and then scrap them ASAP". That is literally the opposition's stance. Absurd.

              • Red Blooded One

                Agree all those those questions deserve to be asked and answered. As one of those Petrol Station places of interest is closest to where I moved to 2 months ago I want all the answers too but I fear we have all bought into the social media gossip on this occasion, including Winston, desperate for attention. Whatever this dodgy woman was up to I hope it all comes clear in the fullness of time.

            • Anne 17.3.1.2.2.2

              No. It hasn't been proven. And the gang leader who was supposed to have accompanied her to Northland has categorically denied it. Says he's not been to Northland. He was given an exemption to come to Auckland and encourage his members to get vaxxed. Today's latest Covid news suggests that is exactly what he has done.

              You mention Slater. What's the bet he's been 'helping' to spread the rumours.

          • chris T 17.3.1.2.3

            Could be completely wrong as going by something I heard on the radio this afternoon while shopping in busy supermarket, but from memory think fake paperwork.

        • Patricia Bremner 17.3.1.3

          The Opposition meme "We would do it better" "Give us certainty".cryingangry TUI.

  17. joe90 19

    Great.

    The Nevada State Public Health Laboratory has identified a rare case of COVID-19 reinfection occurring just 22 days after the patient first tested positive.

    The patient, an unvaccinated 31-year-old Mineral County man with no underlying health conditions, first tested positive for the delta variant and then, three weeks later, for a different strain that evolved from the delta variant, Mark Pandori, director of the lab at the University of Nevada, Reno’s School of Medicine, told the Review-Journal this week.

    […]

    The strain, a sublineage of delta known as AY.26, has 31 genetic differences from delta, including on the spike protein, the part of the virus targeted by vaccines, he said. It is this genetic variety that especially concerns him.

    “My concern is that there’s a scientific rationale for this being indicative of a bigger problem,” said Pandori, whose lab in August 2020 reported the first known case of COVID-19 reinfection in North America.

    That bigger problem is the possibility of increasing numbers of reinfections as well as so-called breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals.

    https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/nevada/mutant-of-delta-variant-blamed-for-nevada-mans-rapid-reinfection-2455634/

    • McFlock 19.1

      tl,dr: the plaguelands are developing yet more variants of the disease.

    • SPC 19.2

      A bit concerning for populations reliant on natural infection immunity after high levels of spread.

      If it is to compromise current vaccines – we have to keep this strain out, or focus on treatments and back to border bubbles and elimination.

  18. Patricia Bremner 20

    Well this is because they were too slow, so opening up to the world becomes a bloody business pipe dream. Let us hasten slowly!!

  19. Ad 21

    It's in Bay of Plenty in Katikati, but they are fully vaccinated.

    Hold your breath Tauranga.

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