Open mike 10/04/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 10th, 2023 - 296 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

296 comments on “Open mike 10/04/2023 ”

  1. tsmithfield 1

    I expect to be a fairly lonely voice in this discussion. But anyway…

    One issue that has been rearing its head lately is the intended new way of teaching mathematics. The MOE is looking to introduce critical mathematics into our schools. From the document (page 8)

    A critical maths pedagogical approach uses maths to develop critical awareness about wider social, environmental, political, ideological, and economic issues. Critical maths recognises the importance of understanding, interpreting, and addressing issues of power, social justice and equity in the community and the wider world. Ākonga are encouraged to interrogate dominant discourses and assumptions, including that maths is benign, neutral, and culture-free.

    This approach seems to me to be very woolly and politically loaded.

    According to Wiki critical mathematics has its roots in Neo-Marxism, and "give special attention to the social, political, cultural and economic contexts of oppression, as they can be understood through mathematics."

    So, it seems to me that teachers will be expected to frame maths as part of some sort of class struggle, and, perhaps in a similar way to which the education system is framing science, we will be shunning mathematics as "Western maths".

    Further more, I don't see this type of teaching as actually doing anything to improve numeracy in children because "there is no set curriculum." Hence, there seems to be the likelihood of huge gaps in knowledge. And rather than structuring maths to match student needs, it seems to me more likely that teachers will be structuring maths lessons to avoid their own areas of weakness.

    This whole relativistic approach to an absolute subject can only end in disaster IMO. I am all for teaching maths in an applied way. That is, teaching maths so that it matches areas of interest children may have. For instance, teaching maths as it relates to an engineering course. But, what is proposed is nothing like that.

    • weka 1.1

      Would you mind linking to the source webpage for that PDF? I think seeing the context of where it sits would help the conversation

      edit, it’s from here https://www.education.govt.nz/our-work/changes-in-education/curriculum-and-assessment-changes/common-practice-model/

      • tsmithfield 1.1.1

        As far as I know this was the source:

        https://assets.education.govt.nz/public/Documents/Curriculum/cpm/Phase-1-Common-Practice-Model-March-2023.pdf

        It seems to be from a government education site so far as I can see.

        • weka 1.1.1.1

          That's the same PDF. I'm asking where it came from. Did you get it from google? or the government website? or?

          • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1.1

            I got it from following through after seeing the question on it in the house the other day, so I knew it was ACT and found it was linked to by Seymour. I didn't specifically access it directly from a government site.

            Not that I think it is relevant.

            My concern is about the content of the document, not who linked to it. I would have had the same concerns no matter who linked to it. I have a love of education, and genuinely find this sort of stuff concerning.

            • weka 1.1.1.1.1.1

              it is relevant (I linked above), because it's part of a whole strategy beyond that document, and it's useful to see that context. It's just about better understanding than people going off on one yet again (thinking about the MM debate, and not meaning you).

              I wasn't asking who linked to it, I was asking where the document originated, for those reasons.

              • weka

                (and to clarify, I was really just asking, it's not a requirement, it's just helpful).

                • tsmithfield

                  Not that I am an ACT voter. I am probably driven more by issues these days. And, education is one of those issues for me.

                  • Anker

                    Tsmithfield in my opinion the Labour govt and their policies are infused with gender ideology and critical race theory. I realize this proposition is up for dispute, but I think what is happening with the school curriculum provides some evidence for this (gender ideology is now introduced at school from 5 years of age where children hear phrases such as "being born in the wrong body" and "sex assigned at birth"). I can provide a link for this if required, but I think such evidence have been provided on this site many times).

                    If one support's these ideologies then a vote for Labour or the Greens is an obvious choice. You will see these flourish across our countries institutions. That's what a vote for Labour or Greens now means.

                    Gender ideology which postulates such ideas as sex being assigned at birth and gender identity trumping sex seeing the absurd idea that women can have penises, is frankly delusional. This has nothing to do with geniune people who have extreme dysphoria to the extent they what to live as members of the opposite sex. Those people are extremely rare and need to be left in peace to lead their lives.

                  • weka

                    Not that I am an ACT voter

                    glad to hear it 🙂

                  • Blade

                    I will be voting ACT. You have highlighted something though that the Right seem not to be addressing regarding education. National want a focus on teaching the ''basics'' Many would agree there's been too much touchy feely nonsense being taught at the moment. But where does this nonsense come from? :

                    1- Education Ministry.

                    2- Teachers Colleges.

                    3- Teachers Union (supportive role)

                    4- Outside input ( especially cultural)

                    What's Nationals policy regarding these institutions? Does an incumbent government have any influence over these organisations? If not then it's wasted effort worrying about education. If you want a good education for your kids, it's either private education or home schooling.

    • Hunter Thompson II 1.2

      Does the MoE document bring in Mātauranga Māori?

      • Anker 1.2.1

        Interesting to read. It does read to me like it is attempting to elevate Maori knowledge above science (my opinion). I read Chris experiement with Kawakawa.

        Its good to encourage curiousity in students and that is a big part of what science is about. I would never disputed that certain native plants don't have some sort of healing properties. The problem with Chris study from a science point of view is that he uses mouse cells. This of course is common in science, but doesn't necessarily translate to human cell. Good science always acknowledges the flaws in their studies.

        The challenge would be to test Maori traditional methods against Western methods for reducing inflamation (obviously well above the students grade so to speak).

        Unless I see rigourous scienctific evidence that alternative medicines work as well as or better than conventional western medicine, I don't see why we would elevate such medicine.

        Besides which, I thought we were trying to ensure Maori are well engaged with the health system as part of improving their health outcomes. I am not sure looking at traditional methods is going to help this.

        All of the above is just my opinion.

        • Tony Veitch 1.2.1.1

          And as you are a known right wing apologist, your opinion is not worth a great deal!

          • weka 1.2.1.1.1

            please don't flame.

          • Anker 1.2.1.1.2

            I didn't realize I was known as a right wing apologist. Can you define what you mean by right wing.

            Its up to you how much weight you give my opinion. Entirely up to you

            • Tony Veitch 1.2.1.1.2.1

              I will be voting Act. 3.3.2.2

              [Sorry, weka, couldn't resist!]

              • Anker

                Does voting Act make me a right wing apologist? I was just saying that I would. Have never voted for anyone but Labour all my life.

                I have thought very carefully about it, listened to a range of parties and although I don't agree with all Act say, at this point in time they are the one's who disturb me the least.

                • Tony Veitch

                  I'm sorry, Anker, but I must be too set in my ways to comprehend, even for a millisecond, how someone who has "never voted for anyone but Labour all my life" could vote for Act: Richard Prebble and Roger Douglas reincarnated, with a touch of Ruth Richardson thrown in for good measure.

                  Their "market will decide" ideological belief will continue to wreck this country, as it did for education, health etc under Douglas, Bolger, Key and even Clark.

                  [Shakes head in utter disbelief!]

                  • weka

                    maybe ask then, you never know, you might learn some things about why women who feel politically homeless as doing what they are doing. Did you see how the SNP's polling tanks after its leader fucked up an interview on whether a rapist was a woman? Removing women's rights has serious political risk.

                  • Anker

                    Fair enough Tony that you don't understand. If I knew you we could sit down over a coffee and I could explain why and maybe we could have an interesting debate about it.

                    It goes something like this. As far as I am concerned, NZders are far worse off economically than when Labour took the reigns in 2017. Child poverty has not decreased and given the latest I saw in the current stats, they didn't count children in motels and living in cars. The need for food parcels have increased and I believe this from what I am told by the people I donate too. The health system has got worse and in my opinion Labour have absolutely failed to attend to the most important issue facing the system i.e. workforce shortages. I read Ian Powells columns and this informs some of my opinions. Housing has not improved. Crime??? don't think so.

                    I know Labour had the pandemic to deal with and I give them cudos for that. While I am pro vacinne, I think the mandates have created a great deal of division. I have never known the country to be so divided.

                    Education, well I endorse everything Tsmithfield has been posting very recently about the school syllabus. Our truency rates are shocking, among the worse and Jan Tinettis solution was to run a series of adds to get kids back to school.

                    Ideologically I find Labour no longer matches what I believe in. They are neo liberal (as Act are). Their policies are heavily influenced by gender ideology and crt.

                    I don't agree with Seymours economic policies but hey, don't see any party offering something that is significantly different.

                    His party does have a lot of solutions though on truency, the school curriculum, etc etc.

                    Climate Change, well we have a shiny new Ministry or some such thing and then a Minister who blames everyone else rather than resigning because he has achieved so little.

          • Molly 1.2.1.1.3

            "And as you are a known right wing apologist…"

            That's a definitive statement, made without evidence.

            Surely, we can focus on topics rather than people?

            • weka 1.2.1.1.3.1

              If you read the thread you will see that I've already asked him to stop. Multiple commenters replying when there really is no need is part of the current problem on site (not just you). If Tony already feels sufficiently pissed off or whatever it is that is going on, then having others wade in is unlikely to improve things.

        • Incognito 1.2.1.2

          What are you referring to when you mention “Chris experiement [sic] with Kawakawa”? Where is your link?

          What did Chris [?] do with mouse cells [what mouse cells?], what did he find, what did he conclude, and what were the next steps in the scientific process?

          What were the “flaws” in his [science?] project? Where is your critical scientific analysis?

          In what way(s) do human cells in the lab translate better to real-life humans? How many steps, or better, what steps are needed in between such translation? Does it require any follow-up experiments, e.g., for further testing and validation?

          And so on and so forth.

          BTW, the medical use of Kakakawa is traditional knowledge and, as such, traditional medicine, which is different from alternative medicine. Please stop conflating the two, especially when you want to criticise Mātauranga Māori in relation to Science as we know it.

          Anyway, I though this thread was about critical mathematics and this seems to be the specific lightning rod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mathematics_pedagogy#Critical_theory_and_critical_mathematics

          • Anker 1.2.1.2.1

            Hunter Thompson at 1.2 posted this link

            https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/topics/m%C4%81tauranga-m%C4%81ori

            if you click on it you will find the experiment I am talking about undertaken by a student called Chris. I do admire him for attempting a scientific experiment. He was able to demonstrate that how scienctists were testing Kawakawa was flawed at least from the point of view of mouse cells.

            Sorry I don't have a link to hand about mouse cells don't automatically mean something will work in humans.

            You are correct traditional medicine isn't the same as alternative medicine.

    • Anker 1.3

      100% Tsmithfield. The education syllabus appears to have been taken over by people who have an ideological position to impose on young minds……

      • mpledger 1.3.1

        I don't think it's that. I think they are trying to give children the tools to use as adults to fight back against people who want to impose an idealogical position on adult minds.

    • Ad 1.4

      Hmmm. Imagine if we made mathematics meaningful.

      Imagine if we used it to make sense of actual everyday happenings in our neighbourhood.

      Imagine if we also reversed it and used English classes to make us stronger in Maths at the same time.

      Doesn't sound too Pedagogy of the Oppressed to me.

      • Anker 1.4.1

        Maths was made more meaningful when I was at school. I remember school projects where I applied maths to budgeting for my ideal wardrobe.

        What is being implemented now is ideological

        • Ad 1.4.1.1

          You were taught in an ideological void?

          Were you raised on Mars?

          • Anker 1.4.1.1.1

            No I wasn't raised on Mars. But I think you knew that.

            I can honestly say I don't think a particularly ideology was part of my education.

            At uni doing an undergraduate degree, I was taught there were a range of paradigms within which we operate, but I was taught that one way was the right way to look at it. I was taught to be aware of the different paradigms and critically evaluate them.

            What about you Ad. What ideology was imposed on you when you were being educated?

            • Ad 1.4.1.1.1.1

              If honestly you can't see the ideology you were brought up in, then honestly you shouldn't be making claims about the ideology you observe now.

              • Anker

                The values I was brought up with were egalitarian. I guess you could say it was the ideology of socialism. This wasn't really brought into my learning at school. We didn't cover politics. In social studies we covered Maori and their culture. We learnt Maori songs, made pois and danced with them. Did some flax weaving. We visited museums and I still recall the peacefulness of the meeting house. We learnt a bit about how pre-colonial Maori lived, hangis food storage huts, iwi hapu. I don't recall but I am pretty sure we covered the NZ wars, but not the Musket wars. I don't think it was too poltical, but it was very respectful (imo). I never came away with the idea that Maori were inferior in any way. It was kind of descriptive. I also recall learning at high school in Social studies about pacifica coming to NZ to be given all the factory jobs that Kiwis didn't want to do.

                But you have yet to answer my question. What ideology did you get educated in? No problem if you rather not answer.

                • roblogic

                  I couldn't detect any overt ideology at my middle class, mostly white schools in the 70s and 80s. But there was (is) definitely a cultural bias inherited from our past as an outpost of the British Empire. No doubt many assumptions were made and narratives taught by well-meaning teachers that left out some important things (racism, war, colonisation) that other cultures knew and experienced first hand.

                  • Belladonna

                    Oh, there definitely was some (assuming that you are roughly the same vintage as me)

                    Joe is building a deck, he needs to cover his material cost (calculate this), and his labour (at $12/hr), and make a 10% profit. If it takes him 4 hours to build the deck, how much will he charge the customer?

                    Molly is baking for the school fair. She needs to bake 10 cakes (calculate the ingredient costs, from the list supplied). If the school sells the cakes for $9 each, how much profit have they made, after accounting for the ingredients.

                    So. Sexist assumption that Joe is working for money, while Molly is volunteering – not to mention the fields of endeavour (why shouldn't Molly be the carpenter!)

        • Sabine 1.4.1.2

          We did math and applied it to budgets for food, housing, and such, it was called 'home economics', it also included balancing a check book, compound interest.

          today we teach them that if you need top surgery get a go fund me.

          you are right, what ever 'ideology' we were thought it did not include the falsehood of people changing their sex and it did not involved kids being castrated and sterilized.

          We were utterly lucky.

          • tsmithfield 1.4.1.2.1

            We did math and applied it to budgets for food, housing, and such, it was called 'home economics', it also included balancing a check book, compound interest.

            I agree with you. Applying maths like this to real problems people face helps inspire people about the practical value of maths.

            If this was what is intended in the new education model, I would be quite happy. But, looking at the philosophies and ideology behind critical maths, I don’t think it is.

      • tsmithfield 1.4.2

        Imagine if we used it to make sense of actual everyday happenings in our neighbourhood.

        Ad, I think you are talking more about applied maths, which I think is excellent for making mathematical concepts relevant.

        But, as I understand it, that isn't so much what critical maths about. It seems to be more about pushing an ideology, and guiding teaching methods.

        I think the issue here is bigger than left or right politics. It is more about ensuring our children grow up with a fighting chance of succeeding in life.

    • Molly 1.5

      "I expect to be a fairly lonely voice in this discussion. "

      FWIW, I agree with your concerns.

    • Macro 1.6

      Mathematics has always had a cultural context. The Babylonians used a base 60 number system, To the Greeks the concept of Zero was an anathema, such a belief held up the advancement of algebra for centuries.

      Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number. Some of them asked themselves, "How can not being be?", leading to philosophical and, by the medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum. The paradoxes of Zeno of Elea depend in large part on the uncertain interpretation of zero.

      The advancement of science and mathematics goes hand in hand with the progression of cultural practice and belief, whether we like it or not.

      I remember teaching a group of Tongan sailors who had been selected to maintain the Tongan defence force new patrol craft electrical equipment. Their cultural experience was quite unique. How do you talk about electrons, potential difference, etc? I'll leave that to the people here to ponder on.

      • tsmithfield 1.6.1

        Thankfully now we have an understanding of maths that transcends culture. And it doesn't take too much thought to realise that this is actually quite important for the general advancement of knowledge across cultures. Otherwise, spreadsheets might give different answers depending on which country someone lives in.

        Applying maths to cultural situations is exactly that. Applied maths. It isn’t critical maths as per the Wiki explanation given above, or the MOE document I linked to earlier.

        Even Tenetti and Kelvin Davis seemed to be struggling with the difference in question time when Kelvin Davis suggested to Tenetti that the maths used in the government budget was an example of critical maths.

        It wasn’t. It was applied maths as it applied to the budget. Not critical maths. There is a huge difference.

        • RedLogix 1.6.1.1

          "Culture" is really nothing more than an arbitrary grab bag of social habits, customs and preferences. Different societies everywhere evolve by an indeterminate process of accumulating odds and ends according to their history, geography and degree of isolation from others.

          Now while there is no doubt the culture we grow up in becomes imprinted on our psyche, is important to us as individuals, and that it will tend to drive differing outcomes between societies (it being self-evident for instance, that a culture that values education more highly will likely become better educated) – it is a mistake to elevate 'culture' as something more than it is.

          • Liberty Belle 1.6.1.1.1

            Culture doesn't care about the square root of 49.

            • mpledger 1.6.1.1.1.1

              But some cultures could calculate square roots and some couldn't and that made a difference in what they could build. And buildings matter to culture – for law, government and arts.

              • Liberty Belle

                Sure, but none of that speaks to why our kids should be taught to:

                "interrogate dominant discourses and assumptions, including that maths is benign, neutral, and culture-free."

                Because maths is all of those things.

                Also, there is no place in maths to recognise

                "the importance of understanding, interpreting, and addressing issues of power, social justice and equity in the community and the wider world."

                This is all just ideologically driven bs, that is going to take time away from teaching actual maths, as opposed to this other flannel.

                All quotes from https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-04-2023/#comment-1944673

          • Anker 1.6.1.1.2

            1000% red logix. Absolutely agree with what you say about culture.

    • Incognito 1.7

      Doing maths at school seems to have become like reading-comprehension, which puts students with dyslexia on the back foot. I struggle with it and I aced maths at secondary school and university and I’m not even really on the spectrum.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_(mathematics_education)

    • Liberty Belle 1.8

      "A culturally responsive and sustaining pedagogical approach values and builds upon the knowledge, values, languages, cultures, identities, whānau, communities, lived experiences, and whakapapa of ākonga."

      Direct quote from your link.

      What a load of f*&king nonsense.

    • roblogic 1.9

      This comes back to the present zeitgeist that calls into question many things we previously assumed were unassailable truths:

      • Objective reality exists independently of human minds
      • The laws of nature are real, measurable, rational, and available to human minds
      • Humans are capable of understanding these laws and writing them down
      • We stand on the shoulders of giants; past generations bequeathed us a social and intellectual treasure trove
      • Humans are also capable of great error, that is why independent thought and critique is a social good
      • Moral categories and moral reasoning is a skill to be taught; children need to learn and grow
      • Biological categories and taxonomies are not socially constructed, but are observed and verified by genetics and phenotypes
    • Visubversa 2.1

      We also broke windows, set fire to letterboxes, chained ourselves to railings, disrupted men's meetings and threw ourselves in front of the King's horse.

      • weka 2.1.1

        fair point. Can I use that in the twitter thread?

      • SPC 2.1.2

        And the violent stuff.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suffragette_bombings

        The minor damage to the Edward Chair in 1914 was later found to include a split to the stone (when the Stone of Scone was repatriated back to Scotland from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day 1950 by University of Glasgow students (Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson and Alan Stuart).

        Originally the Crown person sat on the stone, until the 17th Century when the stone was placed within wood.

      • Sabine 2.1.3

        And showed up naked at the Deans Office to protest the lack of female changing rooms/showers in 1976 at Yale.

        https://www.espn.com/espnw/title-ix/story/_/id/7985418/espn-magazine-1976-protest-helped-define-title-ix-movement

        The men had state-of-the-art boats, but were mired in the program's worst rut (no Olympians since the 1964 Games). The women, who were far more successful, made do with antiquated, shoddy wooden shells. But the harshest indignity was the wait. After every practice at what was then the Bob Cooke Boathouse — a Spanish-style building that was the footprint for the Gilder Boathouse — the men would go into the showers, while the women got on the bus and waited for them.

        There was a small trailer with four showerheads for the women, but because Yale and the municipality of Derby were at odds over the boathouse sewer line, the facility didn't have the variance needed to get hot water.

        So the women sat on the bus, cold, wet, tired, and steaming that they had to wait to get back to Yale to shower. They had made countless entreaties to the athletic department and Joni Barnett, the director of women's athletics and physical education, but still, no showers. "I would sometimes work out in the morning, when nobody was there," said Warner. "But I still couldn't use the showers." In February of that Olympic year, Warner came down with pneumonia.

        snip

        As the winter of '76 played itself out, someone on the bus jokingly suggested throwing Mrs. Barnett in the river to show her what it felt like. That idea was trumped by another: Let's stage a demonstration in her office where we show her the bodies Yale doesn't seem to care about. "I dare you," Anne said to Chris. "No, I dare you," Chris said to Anne.

        snip

        They wrote TITLE IX, or just IX, on each other's backs and sternums.

        snip

        Awaiting them were the writer and a photographer from the Yale paper. Ernst had made the appointment to see Barnett, and as she remembers it, "Her secretary saw me and said, 'Oh hi, Chris," and then she looked behind me and said, "Uh oh." The 19 women then walked into Barnett's office and took off their sweats. The photographer, Nina Haight, climbed on a desk to shoot the event, while the writer, David Zweig, sat in a chair with his back to the nude women. In a calm and unwavering voice, Chris read her the statement, which said, in part:

        These are the bodies Yale is exploiting.

        We have come here today to make clear how unprotected we are, to show graphically what we are being exposed to …

        On a day like today, the rain freezes on our skin. Then we sit on a bus for half an hour as the ice melts into our sweats to meet the sweat that has soaked our clothes underneath …

        No effective action has been taken and no matter what we hear, it doesn't make these bodies warmer, or dryer, or less prone to sickness …

        We are not just healthy young things in blue and white uniforms who perform feats of strength for Yale in the nice spring weather; we are not just statistics on your win column.

        We're human and being treated as less than such.

        The story Zweig filed for The New York Times — for which he was paid less than $100 and received no byline — ran on the front page of the second section the next day under the headline "Yale Women Strip To Protest A Lack Of Crew's Showers" with this quote from Warner: "We'll probably get [showers] when Peter Pan comes back to life."

        And for what its worth, the current young women who want to succeed in sport will just have to wait for Peter Pan to come back to life to get heir single sex spaces back and thus not having to compete against males, nor having to change/shower with them.

        1976.

    • Molly 2.2

      Not really, wink

    • roblogic 2.3

      I watched the French movie "Driving Madeleine" last night. A lovely portrait of a life and insight into the human condition, from the perspective of a French woman who grew up 90 years ago. Women's rights were hard won.

      Madeleine's husband turned into an abusive alcolohic who hated her son from a previous relationship. She was regularly beaten and raped. But the final straw was when he hit the boy. So she knocked him out with sleeping pills and injured him so badly he could not abuse any more.

      The court scene was particularly poignant. She stood in the dock, accused by a judge and jury of men. She told her story of years of beatings and how she could have killed her husband, but didn't go that far. Then the husband came into the court and lied to everyone. So Madelene was sentenced to 25 years prison. This was in the 1950's when divorce was practically impossible, marital rape was not a crime, women were still widely seen as chattels and could not have their own bank accounts or careers.

      This is way outside my normal, masculine coded movie fare. A woman's perspective of life is much different from my experience. Every generation has their wars to fight, I suppose. But things are so much easier these days, in so many ways.

  2. Molly 3

    Well, concerns about the police not being worried about people's safety appears to be unfounded…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487640/police-urge-rainbow-community-to-report-threats-violence-in-wake-of-posie-parker-visit

    Disinformation Project researcher Dr Sanjana Hattotuwa previously told RNZ the outpouring of hate towards the trans community triggered by Keen-Minshull visit was beyond anything he has seen.

    "They are being hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online – to a degree we've never studied before."

    Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.

    He said the extremity of the content was more characteristic of far right and neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups, and the fact it was now being taken up by groups that flourished because of Covid measures was "really worrying".

    He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".

    "Something that we've never seen before is the import of content from Australian neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, anti-Semitic networks and individuals and their personal networks, into Aotearoa New Zealand."

    Hattotuwa said there was an "extremely strong correlation" between online hate and the possibility of physical violence.

    • Visubversa 3.1

      Unfortunately, their idea of "violence" is someone saying "Good Morning Sir" to them in a supermarket or using the name they had for 45 years.

      • SPC 3.1.1

        It's not as if it is unknown for right wing actors to commit violence.

        • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1

          When did "Good Morning" become a right wing greeting?

          • Visubversa 3.1.1.1.1

            Nick, "misgendering" and "deadnaming" are well on their way to being hate crimes.

          • SPC 3.1.1.1.2

            Another person conflating online threats with saying hello …

            • Sabine 3.1.1.1.2.1

              Please define 'online threats'.

              • SPC

                Read the article Molly linked to in 3.

                And stop with the no debate strategy.

                • Molly

                  I linked to it as an example of the low-quality output of The Disinformation Project.

                  Many women have examples of direct and violent threats online, doxxing and physical violence from just expressing concerns or opinions online.

                  Equating KJK and the #LetWomenSpeak attendees with the increase in negative responses, seems to imply those mostly middle-aged women are responsible.

                  It is more likely, that others have got involved when celebratory social media posts and inane excuses for violence have been posted.

                  It seemed apparent to me that what was said in the quoted piece was of very low quality. It seems you have another perspective.

                • Sabine

                  If you wish to converse with me you need to define your terms. Voltaire.

                  I am not gonna give value to people who do not define their terms. So if you want to brush people who disagree with you or persons that person form the Disinformation Politburo singles out as ‘nazis, rightwingers, others, then you need to define what you mean or whom you speak about when you do that.

                  • Anker

                    100% Sabine

                    Disinformation politburo nails it

                    • SPC

                      It's pretty right wing to infer that disinformation comes from a communist party organisation.

                  • SPC

                    The specific nature of the online threats referred to in the article was not disclosed

                    hounded, harassed and harmed and hated upon online – to a degree we've never studied before."

                    Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content

                • weka

                  Mod note:

                  And stop with the no debate strategy.

                  No debate has a very distinct political meaning at this point in history. If you are using it in that way, can you please explain clearly what you mean? (because I can't see anything even close to No Debate here)

                  If you are not, can you please find a different term. Using no debate out of meaning and context, when so many people still don't know what it is, is just going to cause confusion.

                  Please acknowledge this mod note and let me know what you want to do, thanks.

                  • SPC

                    For mine the dismissal of online threats was similar to "nothing to see hear" strategy of, no debate.

                    I saw the "what does online threat mean" question in that context – given the quoted article made the context clear.

                    I have noted you think "no debate" being "trademarked" would help clarify use of the term.

                    • weka

                      For mine the dismissal of online threats was similar to "nothing to see hear" strategy of, no debate.

                      ok, thanks, I haven't seen that (am not reading all of the comments atm). Will keep an eye out. I think naming it directly as dismissal of online threats would make it clearer what you mean. There is a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication happening on TS atm.

            • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1.2.2

              Actually, that was you. I still remain uninformed about when hello became politically motivated and wouldn't take a greeting as a threat.

              • SPC

                I still remain uninformed about when hello became politically motivated and wouldn't take a greeting as a threat

                In your mind when you took the claim of Visubversa

                Unfortunately, their idea of "violence" is someone saying "Good Morning Sir" to them in a supermarket or using the name they had for 45 years.

                as gospel.

                • Visubversa

                  It is the "Sir" they are complaining about.

                  • SPC

                    The person is angry about being "misgendered", given the dress up in accord with gender ID, but did not claim that this was violence.

                    Hopefully some one has told him going full Karen mode, and using physical presence and volume to domineer is not a feminine trait.

                    • Sabine

                      He is an entire male in a mini skirt and non of that makes them a 'woman'. Sir is the correct way to address this person.

                    • Blade

                      Yes. She has very masculine traits. [deleted].indecision

                      [advocating violence on The Standard is an instantly bannable offence. The transphobia doubles the offence. https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/ You’ve definitely made an effort to change how you comment here, which is appreciated, but it seems like some things still haven’t sunk in. Because you’ve taken up a lot of moderator time, the ban is 12 months in accordance with keeping the debate culture clear for the election year. – weka]

                      [upgraded to permanent ban due to similar comments still being made]

                    • weka []

                      mod note.

                    • Molly

                      "Hopefully some one has told him going full Karen mode, and using physical presence and volume to domineer is not a feminine trait."

                      Two offhand insults to women there:

                      1. Use of Karen as a derogatory term for assertive women – usually of a certain age;

                      2. Equating femininity with womanhood.

                    • SPC

                      Good Afternoon Maam.

                    • Molly

                      @SPC

                      cool

        • Sabine 3.1.1.2

          Please define 'right wing'.

          • SPC 3.1.1.2.1

            Something that we've never seen before is the import of content from Australian neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, anti-Semitic networks and individuals and their personal networks, into Aotearoa New Zealand."

            Traditionally (italics).

            Hattotuwa said a major change had been the degree to which the "extraordinarily violent" content has been taken up and distributed by anti-vax and anti-mandate groups.

            He said the extremity of the content was more characteristic of far right and neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups, and the fact it was now being taken up by groups that flourished because of Covid measures was "really worrying".

            He said the vitriol directed at the trans community could be described as "genocidal".

            The thing about populism, is that when it comes to hate for an other, whether a former PM or the woke or a minority related to, it can become violent.

            • Sabine 3.1.1.2.1.1

              and does that then include the left too? Cause we all witnessed violence against old women – bashed in the head resulting in a fractured skull, or is that ok because these women are transphobic for standing up for female single sex spaces and no males in female sports, award categories and female prisons?

            • Anne 3.1.1.2.1.2

              Thanks SPC.

              The Herald have also come up with an article:

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-urge-rainbow-community-to-report-threats-and-violence-in-wake-of-posie-parker-visit/BOFKG45OFNAEXOH57KC6UU42E4/

              Its time some factions within the Rainbow and Trans communities stopped their fighting. It is only a matter of time before the hatred spreads beyond their communities to include all manner of other groups for unrelated political or social reasons.

              As I alluded to a week or two ago:

              I see a trend developing similar to Germany in the 1930s but in a modern day context. The Nazis manipulated the populace to feel and express hatred against individuals deemed 'enemies of the state' and encouraged them to make threats of violence and carry them out with impunity. And look where that ended.

              It could easily happen again and if current global trends continue on their present course it will happen again.

              • Visubversa

                Unfortunately the Trans takeover of the Rainbow community is the problem. That is why there are LGB groups springing up all over the world. Once upon a time – the T definitely belonged with the LGB – we were all same sex attracted. Carmen, Georgina etc were sexually attracted to men. Now – with the change in who and what is "Trans" with gender ideology, many of them are straight and we are being force teamed with the "Alphabet Swamp" which adds more letters every day and covers more of our Rainbow flag.

                All the funding and all the emphasis goes on the "T". No other voices are heard.

                • SPC

                  Transsexual transgender women are being called TERF's (another Nazi) if they get offside with TRA's.

                  • Sabine

                    Yes, as they too dare to not comply utterly and completly with Gender Theory.

                    I have said some time ago, any person who is 'female' as per their official papers will lose rights, the ones with a biological vagina and the ones with the inverted penisvagina alike. The ones who will not be harmed is the person in the clip above as they are simply a cross dresser who can go back to presenting male. Something those that fully transitioned and those that are biological women can not do.

                    And it is about time that those that just want to live their life need to understand that.

                    If people want to use the ladies toilet because they are scared of male violence then they need to explain how letting all males self identifying into any and all female spaces will make them safer?

                    • SPC

                      Yeah the transsexual transgender women are the ones most at risk in this contention. While we are closer to self ID than the UK (who continue to use the managed health and legal process) the matter is coming to a head there more. This is because their gender female ID has more status in law than here. Which is why their Home Secretary is apparently considering resolving this with a formal biological female definition in law. Where does that leave them?

                  • Sabine

                    SPC, you said: Yeah the transsexual transgender women are the ones most at risk in this contention. While we are closer to self ID than the UK (who continue to use the managed health and legal process) the matter is coming to a head there more. This is because their gender female ID has more status in law than here. Which is why their Home Secretary is apparently considering resolving this with a formal biological female definition in law. Where does that leave them?

                    Where does that leave them? If they are transitioned, aka penis vagina and all that and they have their paperwork in order it will leave them in the female spaces.

                    If they are Trans Rights Activist or Incels/MRA's as i like to call them, it will declare them males as per the sex that they were born with and thus it will leave them out of female spaces including sports, awards, prison cells, hospital rooms, and toilet/changing room facilities. It will allow females to specify intimate care if they need it be provided a female carer rather then a trans identified male who self id's as a women – if they transition or not. And that is a good thing. We go back to what used to be. Unless they transition fully they are not a transwomen, they are transvestites, cross dressers, a drag queens, and always a male.

                    Sex is sex and immutable, gender is what ever you make of the assets your parents gave you. And wearing mini skirts does not make a male a female.

              • Anne

                And right on cue this turns up:

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/florida-sheriff-mike-chitwood-from-volusia-county-is-a-cult-icon-after-ripping-into-neo-nazi-group-terrorising-jewish-locals/VD6VPUEOI5BCBHZW7R52BCT5EI/

                Not in NZ but an example how this hate thing on anybody perceived as being different can spread to alarming levels.

                • Molly

                  "Not in NZ but an example how this hate thing on anybody perceived as being different can spread to alarming levels."

                  You seem to enter these threads about women speaking with a repeated implication that it is about not accepting people who are different.

                  Do you have evidence of that perspective being raised here?

              • Anker

                I do too Anne, but we probably disagree where the threat is coming from.

                The threat made itself very apparent in Albert Park when a group of absolute thugs used violence and intidation to shut down the free speech of others, in this case a group of women trying to speak about their sex based rights.

        • Anker 3.1.1.3

          And left wing gender extremists as in Albert Park

          • SPC 3.1.1.3.1

            Sure. So women should be able to take online threats to police from those TRA’s who do this.

            • Anker 3.1.1.3.1.1

              Yes anyone should be able to take on-line threats to police.

              Remember the violence against women at Albert Park was real and perpetrated by those on the left/ trans rights activists (these aren't necessary trans gender people or even gay)

            • Sabine 3.1.1.3.1.2

              You mean the same coppers that stood there and did literally nothing? Cause there is footage of coppers not doing a single thing to prevent that travesty from happening?

              Nah, mate it seems that the left is quite ok with violence and hate directed at people they don't approve of, heck they even try to 'ohter' these people by calling them Nazis and hate groups.

              So i leave you with the words of the good man Jesus, after all it is Palm Monday, 'those without sin shall cast the first stone'.

            • Molly 3.1.1.3.1.3

              Immediate physical threats to women were – for whatever reason – not acted on by police who were present.

              So what expected results do you see for women who "take online threats to police"?

              • SPC

                I'd have no preconceptions. I'd expect the evidence supplied (including capacity to track identity of the perp), and extent to which a specific threat was made to have some significance. There is also the social media platform complaint.

                • Sabine

                  oh boy, there were about several hundred of posts from all over the world with the clip of the young bearded white/white passing male who head butted and old women and then hit her straight in the face twice with the full force of his youth and fists.
                  All tagged the police, the government, the media, and yet, two weeks after that fact that 'white cis male' is still not being apprehended. Crickets….Crickets….. but i guess finding that dude is harder then coming after people that call the soup throwing person a male.

                  Then you had the soup thrower who in many media posts pretended to have left the country, posted many clips about how he would do it again, and is proud of it, but in order to get to his 'go fund my dumb arse' 'give a little to my defense fund' pleaded guilty. Will this thrower of liquids get anything other but slap with a wet bus ticket? I doubt it. I would not be surprised if they gave them the 'Young New Zealander Award for public violence' haded to him by Chippy – he who can not define a women unless he gets to read the questions from journos first so that his PR team can 'pre-formulate" a question. And i guess throwing liquids at people now is good old fashioned ‘protesting’ now, and surely no one on the left will ever complain if it is one of theirs that get a bottle of shitty tomato juice poured over them. As the purple clad soup thrower would state “Slay”.

                  Then there is the old person that was ellbowed by some gigantic person from Wellington, a line backer in blue drag with and enormous wig and bad make up. That person too is known, has a FB page, and is probably coming to a library near you to read about kindness and acceptance to kids in order to indoctrinate them young. ‘Slay Queen’.

                  There is not a copper in this country that gives a flying fuck about women – human females and their rights to human rights, their rights to peaceful assembly with a crowd of their choosing, their right to politically be active, their right to be among their peers.
                  There is not a politian in this country that gives a flying fuck about women and that includes the deluded and delusional vagina havers in parliament, the Labour quota women and the queer brigade from the 'green' party. These vagina having persons just hope that they have enough privilege and middle / upper class wealth to never need a public toilet, public school, public hospital ward or a 'real' female carer for their intimate needs. “Slay”.

                  I don't blame the young people as much as i really blame the few / handful of people that actually have a say in this country. They could help create a better situation for trans and normal people alike, yet they stake the flames.

                  Genocide. Fuck me but that word literally means nothing anymore, and i as a german have learned a thing or three about genocide, collective guilt and the misery that comes from it, generations after the fact.

                  I guess watching women get beat up life on telly makes for good rating. And the coppers are to busy eating donuts.

                  • Shanreagh

                    Sabine.

                    Absolutely agree with your views.

                    These vagina having persons just hope that they have enough privilege and middle / upper class wealth to never need a public toilet, public school, public hospital ward or a 'real' female carer for their intimate needs. “Slay”.

                    Weka gathered together what women do in safe spaces and need safe spaces for. While thinking about this I realised that sometimes as you get older you don't have to be middle class not to need a public toilet or a mixed ward in a hospital……just old.

                    You know just old, with a walking frame or stick plus a need to go. You have to take what is there, or if squeamish (my mother would never go to a toilet with unknown males there) just wet your pants and go home & change.

                    Then if you get ill, like with unstable angina, they take you to a hospital in the ambulance and you get the ward you're given.

                    My mother had female personal carers but when one was sick was offered a male one. She refused but was OK with male nurses in hospitals as there were others about. She refused to have a male doing the little bits of housework she had funding for. She did not feel safe with men she did not know in her home while she was by herself.

                    Imagine getting to age 90 and then arguing the toss with people trying to tell you a man was a woman and that this man was going to do your personal cares.

                  • SPC

                    It has been reported that the person referred to was born inter-sex.

              • Belladonna

                I can speak with a bit of secondhand experience here.

                A family member (female, feminist, in her 40s) was targeted online for her views. Including specific, graphic and violent threats, which made it evident that at least one of the abusers knew where she lived, and worked.

                Bloody scary.

                Reported to the police, along with evidence of the profiles being used.

                Zip. Nada. Police did nothing. And, in fact, told her they would do nothing. It's a 'resourcing issue'. [Which may be true, but is not reassuring]

                Another family member, reverse engineered the profiles (this is my non-tech-speak description of what he was doing) – to find the actual identity of the abuser. Offered this to the police, and was told that he was breaking the law, by breaching the abuser's privacy. And that the police were 'unable' to use this data.

                Really, it makes you wonder at what point will the police act?

                And, just in case anyone thinks this is an isolated incident

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300379571/we-cant-rely-on-the-police-mori-women-on-edge-after-escalating-threats

      • weka 3.1.2

        Unfortunately, their idea of "violence" is someone saying "Good Morning Sir" to them in a supermarket or using the name they had for 45 years.

        by 'their idea' do you mean trans people, the police, or the Disinformation Project being quoted in the article.

        Did you read the quote? It's pretty clear that neonazi rhetoric has increased recently and is extreme. This isn't TRAs saying misgendering is literal violence. It's a completely different order of problem.

        I agree there is concern that TDP might be including blunt language about gender and trans people, but I don’t see how it’s reasonable to assume there is no violent nazi rhetoric and increasing violence from the other groups occurring (because it makes sense).

        • Anker 3.1.2.1

          I would need to see the information the disinformation project has. I am afraid I have a low trust of what they say.

          I am not saying that these threats aren't happening. I know however the trans community consider things such as misgendering as hate speech and can refer to it as violence.

          • weka 3.1.2.1.1

            It seems reasonable to assume that neo-nazis are doing more than misgendering.

    • SPC 3.2

      The extremist right are grifters who would exploit a sense of concern amongst women regarding a minority – Moslem or transgender, to legitimise their application of violent force against a group they already "hate".

      That said women's groups should call on women to refer on-line threats they receive. And call on the HRC to condemn some of the transgender rhetoric (re being someone with the right to be demonstrably a male in women's places).

      • Sabine 3.2.1

        Yeah, how is that person that souped a women in public place doing? they still at home posting 'slay' comments?

        How is that person that head butted and who twice smashed his fist in the face of an old women doing? Police has found him yet? Nope?

        How is that person doing that was ellbowed by some Drag Queen from Wellington? The Drag Queen already been invited by the police for some 'training' on how not to ellbow people cause that is 'unkind'?

        Nah, that is ok with NZ Politians, its ok with the NZ Police force, and i don't think HRC did say anything lest it offend the Gender Borg.\

        Heck, the left is even asking for more of that should females, biological women, insist in talking about their transphobic women rights.

      • Anker 3.2.2

        SPC did you see the thread on yesterdays Open Mike about the HRC? The Commissioner attended the counter protest in Wellington against Let Women Speak and of course there were no Let Women Speak there. We met in someone's house, because even going to a cafe felt too risky.

        The Human Rights commissioner who alledgedly told Ani O'Brien lesbians could have penises. The Disinformation Project if they were geniune and not highly politicized would surely be investigating him. What he said is absolute disinformation.

        • SPC 3.2.2.1

          It's his job to receive submissions from those with concerns.

          PS

          A person born male and who identifies as a transgender woman cannot play "lesbian" with a bi-sexual female, or a transsexual while they still have a penis. If they do "lesbian" play and support women's safety/causes they might get called lesbian like someday – when we resolve this in a civilised way.

          • Sabine 3.2.2.1.1

            no matter what a person with a penis does to their penis, they will never be a 'lesbian'.

            In the same sense as a vegan burger patty made from lentils is never gonna be a nice juicy meat patty coming from a cow.

            lesbian – woman – human female loving a women – human female. The attraction is sex based.

            A translesbian with a penis or a cut of penis engaging in a ‘same gender relationship’ is a heterosexual male who engages in sex with another heterosexual female or a bisexual female.

            Sex – is not gender

            Sexual attraction is not same gender attraction.

            Lesbians and homosexuals are not human support and validation instruments to people who have body dysphoria and who want to cosplay the others for 'victim' and 'oppression' points.

            A white male in a frock is not a lesbian and is not an oppressed and marginalized minority. Its just a white male in a frock.

            • SPC 3.2.2.1.1.1

              There are two extremes, those who say transgender women with penises relationships with women are lesbian ones and those who call GB's sex with men a male homosexual relationship.

              • Molly

                "There are two extremes, those who say transgender women with penises relationships with women are lesbian ones and those who call GB's sex with men a male homosexual relationship."

                yesblush

    • Anker 3.3

      The disinformation project are beginning to look like the conspiracy theorists to me.

      I would like to see some examples of this on line hate towards trans people. Just to be clear, I utterly condemn on-line hate towards anyone. But other than Racheal Stewarts tweet, which I condemn, even though it was supposedly a joke, I have seen nothing.

      Anyone got anything from twitter or elsewhere.

      • SPC 3.3.1

        It's apparently recent. Oz right wing groups getting traction amongst some anti-government social media locals they targeted.

      • Incognito 3.3.2

        The disinformation project are beginning to look like the conspiracy theorists to me.

        “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you” – Friedrich Nietzsche

        You have been staring too much into rabbit holes, which is why you say you will be voting ACT.

        • weka 3.3.2.1

          that Nietzsche quote might apply to the disinformation project people too 😉

          • Incognito 3.3.2.1.1

            It might, but bias is not binary. Academic researchers acknowledge bias and have tools & ways to mitigate this as much as possible, and they (i.e. the DIP) use publically available data & information (unlike our spy & security agencies). People who are commenting on Social Media do the exact opposite. Unfortunately, the SM narratives and behaviours have well and truly infiltrated, invested [in], and infected the discourse here on TS. This process of decline has accelerated over the years and a lot recently, almost following Moore's Law – today, so far, has been an absolute shocker, IMO.

            Please define ‘shocker’ frown

            • weka 3.3.2.1.1.1

              I agree it's not binary and I wasn't meaning it in that way. If the disinformation watch people believe that all GC are terfs, and terfs are bigots and Nazi sympathisers, then they just don't know what they are talking about (presumably because of bias). And if they are making mistakes with GC beliefs, then what else are they making a mistake about? Although tbf, the gender/sex war is unique, so they may be good at the rest of what they are doing.

              Academic researchers acknowledge bias and have tools & ways to mitigate this as much as possible, and they (i.e. the DIP) use publically available data & information (unlike our spy & security agencies).

              Again, it's clear that in the sex/gender war, some academics are absolutely failing in their job. So while your statement is true in a general sense, it's no long possible to rely on that.

              People who are commenting on Social Media do the exact opposite.

              That's harsh. Do you include yourself and me in that?

              • Incognito

                Quite a few “if” conditional statements in your comment, i.e., are you making assumptions or speculating or something else? And what does it mean to the validity of the findings and conclusions about the spread and effect of disinformation in NZ? It seems to me that others (and you?) are questioning the information experts here but without much evidence or sound argument.

                I know that I sometimes tend to slide towards piss-poor-quality commenting, e.g., when I’m tired and/or frustrated.

                I’ve told myself to step away from the keyboard when that starts happening.

                You do realise that it was a general comment, yes? I could have included “some” – any intelligent good-faith commenter would either understand or query [as you did, thank you] before they would jump to inaccurate conclusions that they find ‘jarring’.

                Confirmation bias is a growing problem everywhere, on SM, in MSM, and here on TS. It tears down any constructive debate because people come into it with a bag full of bias and have generally (!) little to no intention to meet the other(s) somewhere in the middle. If stating this is harsh then so be it.

                • weka

                  I used 'if' because I can't be arsed looking it up specifically about that particular project. But it's common and widespread for NZ liberals to do exactly what I just described. Feminists see this all the time because we're paying attention. I just don't take notes and keep references.

                  I liked the Nietzsche quote, because it opens a door to thinking about how we might engage with ideas/people/politics we perceive as monsterous and what that might do to us. The liberal left in NZ insisting that all GC are bigot/terf/nazis is I think a really good example of what can go wrong.

                  I don't consider what I wrote piss-poor. I'm experienced in the GC field. If people want to follow up on what I said, I'm happy to share more including providing back up.

                  • Incognito

                    A team of academic researchers is doing what it’s supposed to be doing: research for the Public Good with publically available sources and disseminating this into the public domain assisted by sound science communication. How this relates to “NZ liberals” and “The liberal left in NZ” is unclear to me and seems to be drawing a longbow. If one makes an allegation it serves to support it with evidence.

                    I did not comment on the quality of your comments here or elsewhere, only one on some of my own, especially the ones that never see the light of day here.

                    • weka

                      If you reread my comment you will see that I to had shifted to a general comment rather than that team specifically. That team is not the only people working on disinformation generally.

                      If the disinformation watch people…

                      I'm glad you have faith in such institutions. However the reasons why many people don't are valid, even if there are aspects of that dissatisfaction that are problematic.

                      But even before the current sociopolitical issues, academia has always struggled with bias and how to manage it, so it's not as big a bow I am drawing as you might think.

                      Are you familiar with the issues in academia in the US and the UK around the gender/sex war?

                    • Incognito []

                      Ok, I came into this thread with a specific response @ 3.3.2 to a specific (negative but empty & hollow without substance) comment @ 3.3 regarding “The disinformation project” that relates directly to the very first comment @ 3.

                      In general, I do have faith in the methods of Science and specifically in the team of the DIP. Are these perfect? No. Are they infallible? No. Are they among the best tools & methods available, at present? Yes! Is Science self-correcting? Yes.

                      I strongly believe that academia is ahead of the curve in terms of identifying and dealing with bias and maintaining academic integrity, at least in the natural sciences.

                      If/when people claim they distrust science they must support their claims. I see little of this happening here – people counter perceived or real bias with their own bias without even realising this or perhaps they don’t want to!

                      I feel that you’re diverting away from the original and specific comment, which was about Information Science Research by a specific team, which is multi-disciplinary but with a strong focus & emphasis on information rather than on specific aspects of the information under study that are discipline-specific and –dependent. If/when one starts to generalise, the criticism becomes generalised too and both precision and accuracy of said criticism go down – it is like zooming in & out with microscope, telescope or any type of camera: only the field of view is sharp and in focus.

                    • weka

                      Just started looking for some links to explain what I mean. The first few disinformation people twitter accounts are locked (understandably), so I won't pursue this now but happy to pick it up another time. I can confirm that Byron Clark uses the term terf. Ime (following on twitter, a few interactions), he doesn't have a good grasp of feminism or women's sex based rights, and tends to use genderist liberal feminists to support his view rather than grappling with the conflict within feminism and generating an understanding.

                      It's worth clarifying I think that I don't dismiss TDP out of hand and my criticism of disinformation people generally is probably different than others here. I have zero doubt that disinformation is increasing, that there are people doing that deliberately as well as the people who can no longer tell what is real. It's also clear that we are in a time of rapid and frightening cultural change, and the work of TDP is crucial in addressing that.

                      I also think that the anti-terf position is so strong in NZ that it's scaring me more than the other disinformation. What the NZ police did with the LWS event should be alarming to the left and civil society generally, and the inability of the MSM to report on the violence against women likewise. This is a watershed moment for NZ, and I don't have confidence that academics are free from the bias or the pressures of No Debate. I hope I am wrong.

                    • Incognito []

                      Byron Clark is more activist than academic, IMO, and only one individual. While some criticism of his lack of expertise and/or ignorance might be valid, I don’t think this invalidates everything he does. However, sometimes some people use this tactic as a counter-argument if they don’t like the message to try to neutralise an adversary.

                      I’d also like to think that your views of TDP (aka the DIP) are more nuanced than the views of others here!

                      This is a watershed moment for NZ, and I don’t have confidence that academics are free from the bias or the pressures of No Debate.

                      I’d say that, in general, academia still is the best protection against certain bias because that is foundational to academic & scientific quality & integrity. At the institutional level, things seem to have become more politicised, unfortunately, and there has been a strong push from science funders (read: taxpayers’ money) too. It is beyond the scope of this topic to discuss the reasons & background for these (mostly!) unfortunate developments.

                • weka

                  You do realise that it was a general comment, yes? I could have included “some” – any intelligent good-faith commenter would either understand or query [as you did, thank you] before they would jump to inaccurate conclusions that they find ‘jarring’.

                  yeah, maybe everyone is on edge atm? I think it was more that I don't know who you are referring to, or maybe more that if you see most of TS comments in that light atm. Which would be very serious.

                  • Incognito

                    You and I seem to be spending a lot (!) of time commenting to & fro …

                    Which would be very serious.

                    What would be serious? That quality of comments & debate here has gone down heaps? Or that I see it this way? Or that you don’t see it this way and might be missing something (‘it’)?

                    • weka

                      if the debate culture at TS was collapsing. I'm confident that you and I see this differently, which is why I would really appreciate you (or anyone) spelling it out.

                    • Incognito []

                      I never said or implied that debate here is in danger of imminent collapse. TS has weathered many shit-storms before and always survived albeit with some collateral damage, occasionally.

                      My main concern is the debate here has become more polarised and thus more polarising. In this sense, it is starting to resemble SM, at times, IMO.

                      You can draw your own conclusions, independently and in parallel, and then we can compare notes. In the back-end, if desirable. So far, you’ve not raised any concerns about (recent) TS discourse.

                    • weka []

                      My main concern is the debate here has become more polarised and thus more polarising. In this sense, it is starting to resemble SM, at times, IMO.

                      Thanks for clarifying, I understand now.

                      So far, you’ve not raised any concerns about (recent) TS discourse.

                      Actually I have, a number of times. I suspect that both of us having been busy IRL lately has contributed to some miscommunication. Agreed about talking in the back end, might be good to have a single thread that is easy to find.

                      I want to reply to your comment on the other OM thread, it was really helpful. Will do that later on.

                    • Shanreagh

                      @ Weka. I don't think the debate structure has collapsed here.

                      I have been astounded at the references and points of view put forward by you, Anker, Molly, Visubversa, Belladonna and Libertybelle etc together with the meeting half way approach & intelligent questioning made most recently by Redlogix and Tsmithfield.

                      I get that 'women's issues' are not everyone's cup of tea. I get that the sharing of information and not beating each other to a pulp is not the way it sometimes happens around here.

                      I have been around on Women's Issues for many years and I can honestly say that this is/has been the most informative, well run and sparkling debate for me….ever since we started talking about the inequities of the No Debate approach way back. The fact that is sustained, that it sparks fresh ideas and references off each other is good.

                      I also think it does show that for many women the ideal and a happier strategy is for people to read what is written and come back with ideas and questions rather than a straight fist to the nose figuratively speaking. I feel hugely empowered by reading the contributions.

                      I know that the women who have contributed don't all think/feel the same even on this issue or how to fix it. Several of us have tried to put up suggestions for improvements.

                      Some of us guided by you have compiled the list of things that safe spaces for women are all about.

                      We have more to lose than men. We must never forget this…..

        • Anker 3.3.2.2

          Hi Incognito you see I think that is another tactic to get away from what the debate is about i.e. "staring into rabbit holes"

          It is true I have a lot of information on the issue of gender ideology and self id etc. But saying I have been starring down a rabbit hole is a way of trying to dismiss my concerns.

          I will be voting Act and in a democracy we are free to vote for whoever we believe is the best choice.

          Re your comment of battling with mosters, I am absolutely nothing to do with Nazis, alt right (whoever they are nowadays), people who don't believe in taking the vacinne (I do and am about to have another shot. Having said that individuals are entitled to refuse a vaccine.

          What ties it all together for me is to do with my values. They haven't change at all. Truth, taking people as I find them, as aiming for fairness, which is impossible in an unfair world.

          • Incognito 3.3.2.2.1

            I have a lot of information too, more than I know what to do with and I paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld and Socrates that I don’t know shit about shit that I don’t know about but I can smell BS when I hear it enlightened

          • Shanreagh 3.3.2.2.2

            Good points Anker.

            It is always an own goal to me when a person's debating technique calls another a Nazi.

            To me it shows

            a) they know nothing about history

            b) are unwilling or unable to debate facts without insult

            • Incognito 3.3.2.2.2.1

              Anker’s response was as weak and pathetic as it was predictable.

              I prefer the high-quality comments and contributions that you used to make here instead of the beating around the bush holding the wrong end of the stick of late.

              • Shanreagh

                I am a woman who is shocked to the very core by the black is white arguments I am confronted with here in relation to the trans debate.

                Transwomen are men.

                Then let's work from here to make the lives etc of all minorities happy and safe.

                For me to want to do that does not mean I should or need to deny reality or biology.

                If you class being women-focussed as holding the 'wrong end of the stick' so be it.

                • Molly

                  Unfortunately, it appears you are no longer considered to be on the "right-side" of this discussion (….or this picture):

                  We all started on the right… now we are mostly just in the right…wink

                  • Shanreagh

                    Yes indeed Molly.

                    We are living in a mad world when police seek input from the shouters and bashers on the ways that they may have been offended by the the minority, and often elderly women who wanted to see KJM.

                    The Police don't seem to have got very far indentifying and arresting the person who bashed the 71 year old around the head, fracturing her skull.

                    This brings me to another point

                    For The Standard

                    In the current (crazy) climate where Police are seeking input from people who may have been hurt by people who they think have stated pro women views (interptreted by them as anti trans)

                    How protected are we as posters here making our views known?

                    Will we be protected to the limits of the lawful ability of the Standard?

                    In what cases would The Standard be obliged to give over our real names etc?

                  • roblogic

                    😂 lol, great image!

                • Incognito

                  If you class being women-focussed as holding the ‘wrong end of the stick’ so be it.

                  No, that’s not at all what I meant and most puzzling.

                  I was referring to your misreading (…) of some comments, including mine – unfortunately some others here take their ‘misunderstandings’ to a whole new level of self-righteousness …

              • Anker
                • Oh come on Incognito. Calling my response weak and pathetic doesn’t add to this debate.

                If you think my response is week and pathetic, say what it is I have said that leads you to that conclusion. I am not even sure which comment you are referring to.

                you started out saying I was starring down rabbit holes. Then you said something about smelling bullshit ( I wasn’t even sure if you meant me or what you thought was bullshit). And now my response is week and pathetic.

                Nothing direct critiquing my ideas

                • Shanreagh

                  I've just about given up Anker. The points made by Incognito 10 April 2023 at 3:11 pm in my case at least are so oblique that if I was a swearing person I would be going WTAF.

                  Coupled with my 'misinterpreting' of how a person using one sentence questions was seeking information…

                  My first incllination was to say to said person, 'how come you've been here in NZ for all these years and have no inkling of Womens issues, including no men in female areas', & gone from there. Looking back now I think I should have. It may have prompted a more civil way of discussion…..who knows?

                  Instead I tried to accept that he genuinely did not know, gave info, then thought perhaps these are socratic questions and he does know…..but no.

                  I think had I wanted to suddenly do a deep dive and write some opinions on Ukraine/Russia, I am damn sure that I would always frame my questions or comments so that those answering knew I was genuinely seeking information. For instance would I say

                  Ukraine – false flag?

                  or

                  Ukraine – the curse of religion on life in wartime?

                  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/4/10/zelenskyy-condemns-russian-strikes-on-orthodox-palm-sunday

                  No I wouldn't.

                • Incognito

                  I was holding up a mirror to your comment, but you failed to see that you were staring into a void filled with noise & nothingness, and just unsupported reckons. In this case, it was a group of scientists whom you disagree with, evidently, but without any sound reason or evidence – you simply don’t like their message, it seems. Any criticism of your baseless allegations bounces off like water off Teflon yet the irony is that you accuse others of trying to divert away from debate. Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in talking about one’s talking points and confirming their prejudices & biases – it is even less interesting and relevant than people’s preferred taste of ice cream [hazelnut-mocha].

                  I am not even sure which comment you are referring to.

                  QED (aka why even bother then?)

                  PS your understanding of science in general is weak. This is not a criticism per se but an observation.

                  • Shanreagh

                    My god this is OTT.

                    Who is it directed to?

                    Horrible stuff.

                    • SPC

                      It began at 3.3. …

                    • Incognito

                      You have to ask??

                      You don’t know to whom it was directed nor what it is really about then yet you have already given your verdict and reaction in and of disgust. This has become a rather typical response and it is no wonder that good commenters have and are giving up in despair of this level of one-sided emotive knee-jerking.

                    • Shanreagh

                      No matter at whom it is directed it is horrible stuff.

                      Surely you can be a little more respectful of those who comment.

                      We are not perfect.

                      Just people with ideas/thoughts and sometimes they may be imperfectly written.

                    • Incognito []

                      I’m not asking for or expecting perfection. This is another profound misinterpretation and mischaracterisation 🙁

                      I’m asking for a modicum of self-awareness and self-reflection.

                      I’m also asking, again, that people pay a little more attention to their comments to avoid … wasting precious time of others.

                      I’m asking of people to assume less and ask more, when in doubt, without turning it into hypothetical statements or leading questions that sound like assumptions or as if they’ve already made up their minds.

                      I ask people to leave emotions out of debate – robust debate on this site is not a form of protest in Albert Park or an occupation of Parliament grounds. This is a free public forum where all kinds of minds come together to discuss & debate, not shout, or exhibit other forms of passive-aggressive behaviour.

                      I do ask that people get their facts straight before they start labelling.

                      On a personal note, it is quite (!) hard for me to be dispassionate and impartial when I do care so much.

                • RedLogix

                  Now would be a good moment to create some breathing space here.

                  Moderators are people just like the rest of us, and while it is certainly possible to disagree with them – and I have done so many times – you are not going to achieve anything by trying to force their hand. In order for this place to function their positional authority has to be unconditionally supported, regardless of your conflict of opinion with them.

                  Nor are moderators infallible. I stuffed it up on more than a few occasions, but the best way to deal with this is to make your point in response as calmly as possible and then let it go. Trying to have the last word is a sure path to a usually unnecessary martyrdom. Often you can make a point more eloquently in silence than any other means.

                  Now if only I could abide by my own ideals on more reliable basis blush

                  • Anker

                    Think I will just put a line under all of that and come back tomorrow.

                  • Incognito

                    Thanks, for your wise words, but for the record: no Moderator hat in clear sight or within reach. I am acting as a concerned commenter here today and I really want to keep it this way – my patience has been tested by one only but we dealt with him decisively 😉

      • Tabletennis 3.3.3

        Dr Hattotuwa (research fellow from The Disinformation Project)said it was particularly worrying considering the lack of tools in New Zealand to deal with disinformation and conspiratorialism.

        "Every institutional mechanism and framework that was established during the pandemic to deal with disinformation has now been dissolved. There is nothing that I know in the public domain of what the government is doing with regards to disinformation," Dr Hattotuwa said.

        "The government is on the backfoot in an election year – I can understand in terms of realpolitik, but there is no investment."

        He believed the problem would only get worse as the election neared.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/487555/rise-in-disinformation-conspiracy-theories-prompts-calls-for-election-protections

        In an article of the Colombo Telegraph (June 2014) it was reported he verbally abused a female co worker …..
        https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/cpa-hattotuwa-must-answer-instead-of-dodging-and-misleading/

        • Incognito 3.3.3.1

          How is the attempted smear of one of the messengers relevant to the rest of your comment?

          How does it help the debate? How does it help any debate?

          What is the point of smearing anyway?

          Why are you spreading this here on TS?

  3. Nic the NZer 4

    Bringing it all together with Jacinda leaving parliament recently. Here's the Maori party claiming that re-opening the border as the vaccination process completes will be a "modern genocide".

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/11/maori-party-warns-reopening-new-zealand-amid-covid-outbreak-would-be-modern-genocide

    The implication that Maori vaccination rates were low is a miss-leading statistical narrative. As a proportion of population there are more younger Maori (and Pacific) than other populations and the younger people had a lower vaccination rate. Maori were vaccinated at a higher rate than Pakeha when looked at by age band however. With covid youth is a stronger protector than vaccination status so this was typically abused.

    So that's the modern meaning of a genocide, it seems to be equivalent to stuff that happens. I think the Maori party all had good words to say as Jacinda left office.

    • Ad 4.1

      With apologies for cross-posting from Kiwiblog, but improving vaccination rates for Maori into 90%+ range has been shown to be both possible and achievable, fairly recently.

      https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/

      [Image resized – Incognito]

      • Nic the NZer 4.1.1

        My point about the statistics is you get a different narrative if you model by ethnicity or by ethnicity and age category or by age category. Before we accept a narrative we should have some basis for presenting that as the true model, especially when alternate models present a different one. In a political context that may also only be an ideologically motivated choice (because there is insufficient evidence for an objective choice either way).

        I don't objectively know if the kiwiblog story about changing immunisation rates is a story about ethnicities, or age categories something else.

      • Ad 4.1.2

        The graph is measured by ethnicity

      • Anker 4.1.3

        God any speculation about the drop off for Maori and Pacifica? vacinne fatigue?

        • Belladonna 4.1.3.1

          Just looking at the graph – which is of childhood vaccinations (not Covid) – there's a slow trend down from 2017-2019 – which I'd attribute to the increasing difficulty of accessing GP services in poorer areas.
          Post 2020 – it's the Covid lockdowns. All routine childhood immunizations were put on hold (IMO – this was a critical error – babies and toddlers have a very slight risk from Covid, and a very real (and much higher) risk from pertussis, measles, etc.). And, of course, lockdowns continued in Auckland (biggest Maori and Pasifika population) for much longer than the rest of the country.
          Medical staff report that they've never 'caught up' with this 2 year failure to vaccinate.
          And, this is complicated (again overwhelmingly in Auckland, but also in other cities), by the housing crisis, with people frequently shifting houses – making it difficult for GP (or other health providers) to contact them for vaccination reminders.

          Finally, I'd say that the anti-vaccination attitude to Covid, has slopped over quite a bit into the way some people perceive childhood vaccinations (about which there is nothing experimental, and for which we have decades of solid data).
          Many, many people know people (or have experienced themselves) a Covid infection which is like a mild 'flu, or even completely symptomless. Of course, some of those people are going to believe that all the fuss about vaccination was unnecessary. And, if Covid vaccination is unnecessary, why would they believe 'the government' over the need for childhood vaccinations?

          What I find really interesting is that the Asian update of childhood vaccines has remained virtually unchanged – right at the top of the chart.

    • Sabine 4.2

      Everything is a genocide. You don't even have to do something. You just have to use the word, and expect everyone to shut up.

  4. pat 5

    "That will be extremely important. Because it may well see the Greens fall below the crucial 5 percent MMP threshold. On current polling, a Labour Party stripped of its Green allies will have insufficient parliamentary support (even with Te Pāti Māori) to form a government. Electoral victory will be claimed by National and Act.

    And that will be no trivial matter."

    https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/120697/chris-trotter-watching-growing-struggle-within-green-party-where-radical

    A pivotal point for the Greens?

    • Sabine 5.1

      I totally think the Green should just dump the 'white cis male' and install the purple clad Genderfairy in his place. It will do wonders for the Greens parties electoral chances.

      • Anker 5.1.1

        100% Sabine lol lol lol

      • Shanreagh 5.1.2

        Good Sabine…we could have other colour clad Gender Fairies representing other genders, you know rainbow.

        All those disagreeing with the Greens could be cast as Goblins. (In my fairy stories the Goblins were always the enemies of the fairies and always wore black…hmmmm not sure where that is going)

        I do love your post and hopefully will have the chance to share with my long term green voting & Green electorate office-holding cousin who is feeling a bit left out..not believing all the gender 'woo'.

        • Sabine 5.1.2.1

          i find black a most fetching color and frankly the thing that i really am starting to dislike is the 'rainbow'. It has become a very oppressive symbol of exclusion to me.

          I will again not vote for the Greens, they no longer represent anything else but a group of people that chase the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

          • Shanreagh 5.1.2.1.1

            You know Sabine, I agree with your comments re the rainbow….now i get a 'here we go again this will be good' negative response to rainbow this or that, much as I did after seeing all those NZ flags on cars coming to the Wellington parliamentary occupation and being waved at the occupation itself. I've never been a real flags person but the over use of the NZ flag, rainbow flag and the pale pink/blue trans flag just do it for me.

            And talking about Johnny Cash in my younger days when reel to reel tape recorders were well past being a thing, in favour of cassettes etc into our close neighbourhood of five rental houses came our new neighbour who was rumoured and later found to be true, had 8 hours of Johnny Cash on a reel to reel. 8 Hours. I like MiB though.

            Greens goneburger for me too.

            Men in Black last few verses are very apt now, as they were then.

            ‘Well, there’s things that never will be right, I know
            And things need changin’ everywhere you go
            But ’til we start to make a move to make a few things right
            You’ll never see me wear a suit of white

            Ah, I’d love to wear a rainbow every day
            And tell the world that everything’s okay
            But I’ll try to carry off a little darkness on my back
            ‘Til things are brighter, I’m the man in black’

  5. joe90 6

    Will no one think of the wealthy?

    https://twitter.com/tomgara/status/1644754084728131593

    The left’s assault on the Supreme Court is continuing, and the latest front is the news that Justice Clarence Thomas has a rich friend who has hosted the Justice on his private plane, his yacht, and his vacation resort. That’s it. That’s the story. Yet this non-bombshell has triggered breathless claims that the Court must be investigated, and that Justice Thomas must resign or be impeached. Those demands give away the real political game here

    https://archive.li/PUAts

    • Sabine 6.1

      The left really does not like that 'black person', cause its the wrong type of 'black' person. lol…….

      Question, is it illegal to have rich friends in the US when a judge? And does that also apply to judges that the left approve of? Or are all these judges only allowed to have friends in the slums of the US?

      • Ad 6.1.1

        It is illegal to not disclose political gifts, as Thomas has.

        But no fear of him being held to account.

        • Sabine 6.1.1.1

          Is it a political gift? Or is that just hte left wing bias to discredit someone that the left would love to nuke into the orbit to install another humpty dumpty?

          defining my terms: political gift to what end? Did Thomas do a single thing that benefitted that person politically, economically, or socially? Did Thomas do anything to reward that person in kind?

      • Macro 6.1.3

        It's not just the fact that Clarence has accepted undisclosed gifts from a billionaire, it's more who this mega donor is!

        The Republican megadonor whose gifts to the supreme court justice Clarence Thomas have come under the spotlight has a private collection including a garden of statues of dictators, including Mussolini and Stalin; Nazi memorabilia; and paintings including two works by Adolf Hitler, the Washingtonian reported.

        “I still can’t get over the collection of Nazi memorabilia,” the Washingtonian quoted an anonymous source as saying, regarding a visit to Harlan Crow’s Texas home. “It would have been helpful to have someone explain the significance of all the items. Without that context, you sort of just gasp when you walk into the room.”

        On Friday, the Washingtonian published pictures of Thomas’s friend’s collection of Nazi artefacts, which includes a signed copy of Hitler’s memoir, Mein Kampf.

        • Sabine 6.1.3.1

          Personally i don't give much fuck about that, you would be surprised who collects that shit. Seriously.

          I consider these ueber rich people all pretty much the same, and i would not be surprised that this dude also gave to the democrats, you know buying insurance for everyone.

          What i find interesting is that this is raised now. And not earlier.

          But then its the US and they are a right shitshow of anything goes.

    • joe90 6.2

      The Propublica article about how for twenty years Thomas has been accepting luxury trips nearly every year from a billionaire GOP donor without disclosing them.

      https://www.propublica.org/article/clarence-thomas-scotus-undisclosed-luxury-travel-gifts-crow

      https://archive.li/YeVOT

  6. Molly 7

    A lo-energy hopper system – just for the fun of it:

    https://youtu.be/6RiYXI1Tfu4

  7. Incognito 8

    Graduate students will have their work cut out for them critically analysing the conclusions of epidemiologist Professor Michael Baker. I can imagine that his thoughts and suggestions will go down like a cup of old sick with some here because they don’t like the message(s) nor the messeneger.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487620/covid-19-may-kill-1000-kiwis-cause-10-000-hospitalisations-in-2023-michael-baker

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487645/keep-covid-19-restrictions-as-is-epidemiologist-michael-baker-says

    • SPC 8.1

      Short version we have around 500 flu deaths pre 2019 era and can expect this again (or worse) this year. This places a strain on our health system by late winter.

      The return of flu season in 2022 coincided with a decline in omicron spread.

      https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/08/31/flu-cases-in-nz-4-times-higher-than-previous-years-expert/

      The flu type this year has not been around since before 2019, so another flu season like 2022 can be expected.

      This year there have been around 300 COVID deaths – around a 100 a month. The chance of a decline in omicron spread this winter is again possible – largely because of the bivalent booster now available.

      • Incognito 8.1.1

        I agree, anything is possible, if people act in accordance with the data & info and advice provided to them. But distrust levels have grown a lot.

        The NZ Health system is already stretched and people know this.

        Baker is pointing to a realistic situation that can arise if people do nothing (much). Decreasing vaccination rates are a worry, short- and medium-to-long-term.

  8. Anker 9

    i have a lot of time for Michael Baker.

    I think he is likely correct. It now comes down to personal responsibility. I know we are going to be lying low right now, even after we have our scheduled vaccine.

  9. joe90 10

    Dr. Lystrup swore her oath on Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot.

    On Thursday, Dr. Makenzie Lystrup became the first-ever female director of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center. The GSFC is the research laboratory that develops unmanned spacecraft, including the James Webb and Hubble space telescopes. It also has a budget of roughly $4 billion. Lystrup, who holds a doctorate in astrophysics, is a natural fit in the role:

    Prior to joining NASA, Lystrup was vice president and general manager of civil space at Ball Aerospace, where she was responsible for the company’s portfolio of civil space systems that span across all science fields, operational weather and Earth observation, as well as advanced technologies development objectives. In this role, she led Ball’s contributions to several missions, such as NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope, Imaging X-ray Polarimetry Explorer (IXPE), Landsat 9, and the Roman Space Telescope.

    One thing that didn’t get a mention in NASA’s press release about her appointment, however, was the book on which she took her oath.

    https://friendlyatheist.substack.com/p/the-joy-of-seeing-a-nasa-official

  10. Molly 11

    Perhaps women should wait for a personal invitation, as per original link:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/487640/police-urge-rainbow-community-to-report-threats-violence-in-wake-of-posie-parker-visit

    Police are urging any members of the trans or rainbow community who are being threatened in the wake of the visit by a British anti-trans activist to contact them.

    Police say violence or threatening behaviour towards people because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, race, faith, disability, and age is not acceptable.

    Notice a missing characteristic in this list?

    Anyone concerned about specific threats or messages should contact police on 105.

    Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex and queer people can also discuss issues with police diversity liaison officers.

    So kind (of unequal) in what is available to complainants.:

    "We're not here to protect you" – Police response at Albert Park to request for help, timestamped @15:12.

    https://youtu.be/TJ9FqiNcV80?t=912

    • weka 11.1

      it's just been pointed out to me that woman/female is now a gender identity, so they don't have to talk about women specifically.

      • Molly 11.1.1

        "it's just been pointed out to me that woman/female is now a gender identity, so they don't have to talk about women specifically."

        Stonewall law interpretation.

        Human Right's Act (1993):

        https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html

        21 Prohibited grounds of discrimination

        (1) For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—

        (a) sex, which includes pregnancy and childbirth:

        https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/versions.aspx

        Do you know when this supposed change occurred, because AFAIK that change was only (stupidly IMO) made to the Sentencing Act 2002:

        https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0009/latest/DLM135545.html

        9 Aggravating and mitigating factors

        (1) (h) that the offender committed the offence partly or wholly because of hostility towards a group of persons who have an enduring common characteristic such as race, colour, nationality, religion, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, or disability; and

        (i) the hostility is because of the common characteristic; and

        (ii) the offender believed that the victim has that characteristic:

      • Sabine 11.1.2

        is that in writing? Or is that a situation like in the UK where they now actually have to think of stating that 'woman/female' is a feeling or a sex?

        • weka 11.1.2.1

          I've been noticing it in various places but hadn't kept track. This turned up today, along with the police statement above.

          https://twitter.com/garwhoungle/status/1645161075057496065

          • weka 11.1.2.1.1

            but no, I haven't seen it stated baldly in writing. Might be in the Stats NZ stuff, will have a look later.

            • Sabine 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Oh well, it was a nice to have. We had been lucky for about 150 years we were more then just property and chattel. We thought we were human. Well done progressives. Well done. You singlehandedly undone all the work of many.

            • Sabine 11.1.2.1.1.2

              Our human rigths act contains the word 'women' or 'gender'?

              • weka

                I don't know. I need to do some research on this. Please let me know if you find other examples of special lists that leave out women. I've been noticing it for a while, but think I should be compiling a list now.

          • Molly 11.1.2.1.2

            Policies and guidelines seemed to have changed before legislation has been clarified or tested.

            It will then be possible to say, this interpretation has no impact when it is tested.

    • SPC 11.2

      I am fairly sure that a white cisgender male would qualify as anyone. So it might also include women.

      But only some people qualify as included because of "diversity" (look how PC Pakeha society has become since the Treaty …).

      • Sabine 11.2.1

        One could argue that hard done by white males just self id as a women and suddenly they are an oppressed category on the grounds of their gender identity. Oh the poor boys. So hard done by.

  11. Patricia Bremner 12

    Cultural wars seem to be "topic de jour" lately, picked up gleefully by press and social media.

    This is at the expense of climate change and its outcomes….which are a real and increasing danger. imo.crying

    Who benefits from the cultural squabbles while the climate change train bears down on us? Not the Greens Labour or Maori Party I would think.

    (I have a vision of the train squashing two groups with their placards fighting on the rail tracks with a train nearly upon them)surprise

    Conflating bad behaviour to all members of groups on both sides, distracts from issues of the common good. imo.

    We should all be looking for features which unite, rather than those that divide us, otherwise we will fight this next election on topics picked by some someone else.

    Just my twopence worth/ lol 2 cents worth.

    • weka 12.1

      I agree. It's the worst time for the left to be cutting itself to pieces as well as marginalising those it disagrees with.

      In the gender/sex wars, one of the big problems is No Debate. Many people simply refuse to have any kind of conversation other than enforcing their ideology. Unfortunately this has gone on for so long now that there are many GC women who feel they have their backs to the wall and also now have little room for compromise.

      The most hopeful thing I see is that in the UK, where gender critical thinking is largely influenced by left wing, centre left, and a few centre right women, a lot of women have just gotten on with the legislative, lobbying and court case work that means there is some hope of women's sex based rights not being completely stripped. But there is a backlash against trans people and the longer the liberals refuse to talk with GC women the more the mainstream will go wtaf? and turn against gender ideology (trans people being the most prominent expression of that, even when they disagree with it).

      • Patricia Bremner 12.1.1

        Thanks Weka, I have seen this divide and conquer behaviour pattern so often over my 81+ years, that I fear this time it is dividing women into conservative and progressives.

        This was done to Labour in the first Muldoon election, when "Reds under the beds.. Dancing Cossacks" sank the excellent superannuation scheme, through frightening people into believing the State would "buy up private enterprise" Shameful fear building .imo

        Then Key convinced us that community meant communism, and self determination and enterprise were the road to the "Light'. (for the entitled few) the rest..$10 an hour.

        Now players on social media are planting ideas which create fear and division and once again, the "piper" has skillfully divided and hardened attitudes to where we are shouting past each other.

        This is designed to divide groups on cultural grounds, and drive women from Labour Greens and Maori Party into the arms of National and Act.

        Which demographic was the weakest for the Right in Polls? Women.

        What happened at that Parker Posie Rally was wrong and Police should be following up on the physical attacks. However I fear once again groups are being manipulated for political gain. Some have already expressed they are moving their allegiance from the Left to the right, so I fear this strategy is bearing fruit for the Right.

        This is a real issue, but not one others should manipulate imo.

        • weka 12.1.1.1

          thanks for that perspective Patricia. Who do you think is doing the manipulation this time?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 12.1.1.2

          Some have already expressed they are moving their allegiance from the Left to the right, so I fear this strategy is bearing fruit for the Right.

          This is a real issue, but not one others should manipulate imo.

          Eszter Kovats: Gender-madnesses in Germany and Hungary
          https://democracyinstitute.ceu.edu/articles/book-eszter-kovats

          Some academic analysis of this manipulation was aggregated in a Special Issue: Gender and Far-Right Nationalism, in the Journal of Modern European History.

          Isabel Heinemann and Alexandra Stern are the guest editors of this special issue. Excerpts from their abstract and text are copied below – food for thought, imho.

          Gender and Far-right Nationalism: Historical and International Dimensions. Introduction [6 July 2022]

          Abstract: Several authors underscore the crucial role of social media platforms and memes in the making and messaging of contemporary far-right nationalism, others rely on more ‘traditional’ media such as journal articles, political speeches and texts. Taken together, the papers in this volume highlight several overlapping themes relevant to the historical study of far-right nationalism and gender and its contemporary transformations:
          (1) essentialism, (2) racism, and (3) and memes and discourses.

          Text: For the most part, far-right ideologies and movements have a strong reactionary component against feminism and ideas of gender egalitarianism. Instead, they tend to promote rigid and binary constructions of gender that assume and expect that women should fulfil their naturally ordained roles as mothers, reproducers, and caretakers. They believe that men, conversely, are destined to act as protectors, aggressors, and leaders.

          Often, gender and sexuality equality is the despised centrepiece of reactionary ideologies. For example, populist leaders in South America and Eastern Europe reject gender egalitarianism and the acceptance of queer lifestyles, attacking them as politically correct stances enforced by ‘Western’ liberalism and being out of step with traditional national values. Moreover, far-right nationalists across Europe appropriate the term ‘gender’ to associate it with ‘chaos’, ‘moral decline’, a troubling version of modernity and, finally, ‘danger to the young generation’. In this reading, the quest for ‘gender equality’ is transformed into a perverted notion of ‘gender ideology’ and is thus harmful to the nation.

          For the most part, the far-right overwhelmingly endorses homophobic and transphobic positions on sexuality. This certainly was the case during previous waves of the far-right, in which heterosexuality was non-negotiable and queer-bashing was practically a rite of passage for new recruits. In the current context of gains for LGBTQIA+ communities, through both legal victories and greater social acceptance, in some circumstances, the contemporary far-right is more flexible with regard to gender and sexuality, yet such flexibility is always enacted in the name of ethnonationalism and protecting borders. For example, far-right nationalists in Scandinavian countries such as Sweden with strong traditions of welfare mobilize rhetoric focused on protecting the country and its values from threatening outsiders, such as African and Muslim refugees, and pit the protection of gender equality and LGBTQIA+ rights against the encroachment of the ostensibly retrograde, patriarchal cultures of the Middle East and Africa.

          • Belladonna 12.1.1.2.1

            I'm not at all clear how this article describes the far-right as 'manipulating' anything.

            It seems to be a statement of their philosophy – not a discussion of any way that that philosophy attracts other groups, or is used to manipulate or divide the left (in particular).

            • Drowsy M. Kram 12.1.1.2.1.1

              I'm not at all clear how this article describes the far-right as 'manipulating' anything.

              According to its editors, the special issue "demonstrates how critical the aspects of gender and sexuality have been to the mainstreaming of the far-right since the early 2000s."

              The contributions to this volume analyse discursive and political strategies, national and transnational networks as well as shape-shifting ideologies of exclusion and difference.

              Perhaps 'manipulating' is too strong – no-one wants to be manipulated. Nevertheless, the anti-gender ideology bandwagon, whatever its origin(s), would seem to be a(nother) strategic vehicle for the political right, at least if comments on TS are anything to go by.

              "Gender Ideology" – A Fantastical and Flexible Narrative
              Analysis
              The ultraconservative extreme right in Brazil is creating moral panic by pushing fake news about “gender ideology”. The fear of anything but heteronormativity plays a central role in the ascension of authoritarian leaders and democratic backsliding.

              https://www.cambridge.org/core/blog/2022/08/23/symbolic-and-imaginary-anti-gender-states-engagement-with-the-uns-women-peace-and-security-agenda/

              • Belladonna

                Unfortunately your quotes don't demonstrate this (regardless of what the editors claim).

                Which weakens your claim that "the anti-gender ideology bandwagon, whatever its origin(s), would seem to be a(nother) strategic vehicle for the political right, at least if comments on TS are anything to go by."

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Unfortunately your quotes don't demonstrate this (regardless of what the editors claim).

                  Imho, it is the editors' opinion that "aspects of sexuality and gender" have been critical "to the mainstreaming of the far-right since the early 2000s." Also, that there exist "discursive and political strategies", "national and transnational networks", and "shape-shifting ideologies of exclusion and difference" that contribute(d) to this 'mainstreaming'. I share their opinions. Let's agree to disagree.

                  Recall that at least a couple of regular commenters here have indicated they could no longer vote for left-ish political parties (or would at least have to hold their nose), some time after the BDMRR Bill (2021) passed by unaninmous parliamentary vote.

                  And consider the possibility that anti 'gender ideology' crusades (fortuitously?) serve the political right, regardless of their origin(s).

                  Gender Ideology: tracking its origins and meanings in current gender politics [2017]
                  Above all, anti-gender proponents mobilise simplistic logics and imaginaries and constitute volatile enemies – here the feminists, there the gays, over there the artists, ahead the academics, elsewhere the trans bodies – nourishing moral panics that distract societies from structural issues that they should be debating, such as growing inequalities of gender, class, race and ethnicity. Although they use theological arguments, anti-gender campaigns speak the language of the Planet Animal. Their representatives, in fact, adhere to Darwin when they say that reproductive autonomy, the multiple forms of family and sexual fluidity not only contradict divine law but also the laws of nature.

                  LGBTI inclusion in Australia and Aotearoa New Zealand schools: policies and practices [2020, PDF]
                  In Australia, the response (peaking during marriage debates 2016–2018) was a “moral panic” against the Safe Schools Coalition featuring denouncements from Christian evangelicals like the Australian Christian Lobby’s Lyle Shelton and conservative politicians like Corey Bernadi – coordinated through the conservative entity, NewsCorp (Law, 2017). Attacks on LGBTI rights education and marriage pushes in both contexts used phrasing mimicking the claims made about anti-homophobia programs around the world such as in “gender ideology” claims made against programs in South America and Europe (Correa, 2018). Tactics seen internationally including anti-LGBTI petitions and propaganda distributions were replicated in both countries.

                  • RedLogix

                    The problem that is now increasingly evident with your general argument is that it offers no boundary condition. There is no built-in argument against anything – the same logic is being recycled over and again to demand we sequentially dismantle each and every social taboo one at a time.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Thanks RL for taking time to offer your analysis of the problem as you see it. I prefer "one at a time", and carefully (haste makes waste), to 'all at once', but maybe that's a luxury future generations can ill afford. Many things are changing too rapidly for my liking – deeply held beliefs, principles and values are being eroded, at least as I see it, but change (good and bad) is inevitable – tidal even.

                      The idea of dismantling "each and every social taboo" gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. I'm firmly wedded to my (typical – who knows?) taboos, and will cling to them as long as I can. Nevertheless, I reckon we could agree on one or two modern social taboos that deserve a degree of defiance.

                      Film that challenges 'one of society's greatest social taboos' premieres on CBC Documentary Channel
                      [21 Sept 2022]

                    • RedLogix

                      I am not sure of your intent on the link to the 'anti-motherhood' piece. I am certain there are some women who choose never to have children and no-one would suggest they be forced otherwise; but the evidence is that the large majority who find themselves childless in middle age realise to their considerable chagrin and sorrow that it is a condition they deeply regret.

                      All too often ideas we think are wonderful in our youth turn out to be monumentally stupid as we get older.

                      Likewise the core problem the left has with it's 'unconstrained progress' argument is that not all new ideas are necessarily good ideas. They frequently turn out to be old ones that have been tried by prior generations, discarded and forgotten. And the cycle repeats itself.

                      Your concerns that the 'hard right' might well be 'manipulating' this trans debate are not without some basis in reality. For every reaction there is eventually a reaction. And the further into error a society shifts, the more extreme the necessary correction.

                      I have yet to watch all of this, but this young guy is reasonably well read as far as I can tell, and makes a case for the pendulum swinging hard-right, even as he is appalled by it:

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      I am certain there are some women who choose never to have children and no-one would suggest they be forced otherwise…

                      "No-one"? You're too intelligent/knowledgeable to be certain, imho.

                      The Danger of Forced Pregnancy [9 May 2022]

                      End Forced Pregnancy [20 Sept 2022]

                      When the anti-woke ("We fight the woke…") pendulum swings, it may do so with force, and collateral damage is a distinct possiblity.

                      Florida Legislators Want to Vastly Expand State Funds for Anti-Abortion Pregnancy Centers [22 March 2023]

                      Florida Senate passes six-week abortion ban [4 April 2023]

                      Of course it could "never" happen (again) in our part of the world.

                      Reproductive coercion and abuse among pregnancy counselling clients in Australia: trends and directions [30 July 2022]

                      https://www.msiaustralia.org.au/reproductive-coercion/

                      Information on abortion
                      Information on abortion services in New Zealand, including how to access abortion care and what help is available.
                      Abortion is legal in New Zealand, and changes in the law in 2020 made abortion easier to access in New Zealand Aotearoa.

                  • Belladonna

                    Recall that at least a couple of regular commenters here have indicated they could no longer vote for left-ish political parties

                    I do, indeed recall this. However, it seems to me to be evidence that there is 'push' away from the left (due to these specific policies), rather than 'pull' from the right.

                    I still don't see any evidence in your multiplicity of quotes, that the right (or even the far right) are actively fostering this. It does seem to be entirely driven by changing policy on the left.

                    From the NZ perspective, it is the GP and Labour who are supporting trans-rights at the expense of women's rights (from the GCF perspective). This is not driven by National or ACT or NZF, or any other party – it is entirely their own policy.

                    It seems highly unlikely that a far-right party (characterized as you quote)

                    For the most part, far-right ideologies and movements have a strong reactionary component against feminism and ideas of gender egalitarianism. Instead, they tend to promote rigid and binary constructions of gender that assume and expect that women should fulfil their naturally ordained roles as mothers, reproducers, and caretakers.

                    … would be a natural 'refuge' for feminists, especially GCF – displaced from the left.
                    Centrist or right-of-centre parties seem more likely to be a landing ground.

                    And, in that context – by the above definition, you could certainly not categorize ACT as a far-right party. I'd say right-wing economic policy, and left-wing social policy (cf their stance on both abortion and euthanasia). They tend to elevate 'choice' as the most important factor [yes, I know that there are issues with this from an economic and social perspective – but that's not the point being discussed ATM]

                    I'm not saying that there is not wedge politics going on in NZ – I'm simply saying that you have yet to provide any evidence of it.

              • weka

                Nevertheless, the anti-gender ideology bandwagon, whatever its origin(s), would seem to be a(nother) strategic vehicle for the political right, at least if comments on TS are anything to go by.

                Please explain what you mean by this. Are you saying that progressive women on TS are being used by the right? How so?

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Please explain what you mean by this. Are you saying that progressive women on TS are being used by the right? How so?

                  Was thinking less that the political right could be using (progressive) women (and men) on TS, and more that the right could 'use' additional votes, or at least benefit from some choosing to withhold their votes from the Greens/Labour (in order of most despicable/despised party?)

                  Who are Labour’s lost voters? [12 January 2023]
                  They are an upper-income 52-year-old woman who owns their home.

                  A few commenters (most some time after the BDMRR Bill (2021) was passed by unanimous parliamentary vote) have indicated they could no longer vote Green and/or Labour, preferring a protest vote/abstention.

                  Yes, I will remain a member of the Labour Party but I won't be voting for this Government in 2023, I won't be voting at all probably, for the first time ever.
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/the-winners-and-losers-from-nationals-leadership-spill/#comment-1836682 [26 Nov 2021]

                  The current left political discourse is pushing votes away.
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/the-kim-hill-kathleen-stock-interview/#comment-1888394 [15 May 2022]

                  As i said, this was a success for the Greens as this is one of the very few policies were they actually got what they wanted, as did Labour, hence why both parties will not get my vote.

                  Having never voted right in my life, so will not consider that an option. I am sure i will find a nice obscure little third party to cast a vote for.
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31-08-2022/#comment-1908552 [1 Sept 2022]

                  • weka

                    to clarify, what you meant was that the right will benefit from GC people not voting on the left over self ID etc?

                    Yes, this is a well known phenomenon, not just in NZ.

                    This is what happens when the left tries to remove women's sex based rights. It turns out that there are women for whom this is a serious, top level political issue.

                    Men too. I'm seeing men say they won't vote because they cannot support the anti-reality aspects of what is being done. From what I can tell this is a matter of integrity.

                    The question is why the left and liberals are either ignoring this or actively forcing it.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Fwiw, I agree that now is "the worst time for the left to be cutting itself to pieces", and "They definitely cannot say they were not warned."

                  Imho, there is a view, here on TS, that ‘the left’ is pushing (some/many?) voters away. Maybe just consider the possibility that the anti ‘gender ideology’ bandwagon is pulling (“We fight the woke…“) while the ‘gender ideology’ bandwagon is pushing.

                  Not to mention the carbon foot print on those massive prosthetic breasts………
                  The Greens and Labour lost my vote over the gender ideology stuff.

                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-09-2022/#comment-1912507 [27 Sept 2022]

                  There are a lot of "political orphans" over the embrace of gender ideology by so-called left wing parties. The Green Party are even worse than Labour.

                  I have never voted Tory – and I never will.

                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/sturgeon-like-ardern-a-casualty-of-online-abuse/#comment-1936185 [21 Feb 2023]

                  Unless Labour and the Greens apologise for their inflammatory comments and denounce the mob I cannot vote for either of them. Democracy is too important I may have to hold my nose and vote National just to ensure the Greens are nowhere near power.
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/letting-women-speak-in-aotearoa-new-zealand/#comment-1941026 [25 March 2023]

                  I couldn't bring myself to vote national or act, even holding my nose, so I have decided to vote for te parti Maori. I certainly could no longer vote for labour or the greens…
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/letting-women-speak-in-aotearoa-new-zealand/#comment-1941031 [25 March 2023]

                  I also can't vote for National or Act. At this stage I think I will be voting for TOP in the hopes of a left wing government not wagged by the Greens.
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/letting-women-speak-in-aotearoa-new-zealand/#comment-1941248 [26 March 2023]

                  I am not voting for Greens in any way shape or from now on, after 3 elections.

                  Labour will need big moves on climate change, women's issues before I vote for them.

                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941729 [28 March 2023]

                  • weka

                    Imho, there is a view, here on TS, that ‘the left’ is pushing (some/many?) voters away. Maybe just consider the possibility that the anti ‘gender ideology’ bandwagon is pulling (“We fight the woke…“) while the ‘gender ideology’ bandwagon is pushing.

                    Who is the anti gender ideology bandwagon exactly?

                  • Sabine

                    It is easier blaming some women who look at what happens to women the western world over – and of course see what happens in Iran and Afghanistan – see what happens to de-transitioneers and decide that they can not vote for people who refuse – out of fear from the mob I might suggest – to define what a women is.

                    Like Chippie they rather stand there and state silly things about not having a 'preformulated answer (damn the politburo should have provided them with and answer a long time ago – something along the line, last i checked Jacinda Ardern is/was one to the laughts of everyone) but no the dude can not. And that makes him unelectable.

                    And every time that happens, and every time a women looks at that shit and says ;NO thank you, it must be because they are right wing and not women who have come to understand that this Labour Party, this Green Party, this Maori Party, this National Party and even this Act party are all part of the mess that is the Trans rights vs Women rights issue.

                    And i guess it is easier for our selected officials ot smear everyone as a Nazi or a racist or bigot or a phobe, because then you don't actually have to answer.

                    So me too i will not vote for the Greens, not vote for Labour, not vote for National, not vote for TPM. I could vote for ACT on the grounds that they will disestablish the Ministry of/for Woman – if you can't define what one is you don't need that ministry nor the expense. Ditto for the Human Rights dudes, if human rights is somethimg women don't have because their few rights to single sex spaces are transphobic, then they might do away with it, as they would have to call that Selected Human Rights Office. Born a female? You got no rights. Please say thank you on your way out. See how that goes?

                    So chances are i am gonna vote for NZFirst, as i did last time around. Or i might vote for legalise Aotearoa. Or the Outdoors Party if they still exist. Who cares. It is not as if my kin or those of my kind have can hope to call on this government for help/protection.

                    But i agree with you on this. If this 'Egg' was laid onto the left by the right because they knew the left would go gaga over a new oppressed category of people – mainly middle class white guys who want to be something they never will be, and watch the left destroy itself over it by throwing its largest single contributor to the health of the left over board then the right did well. Women. The ones that do the canvassing, the phone banking, the cookie baking, flag waving , donating human bodies that help during elections.

                    Cause every single left bloke, and ever single left women on this blog that is OK seeing women stripped of their rights to single sex changing rooms/toilets, sports, prison cells, hospital wards, female caregivers etc, you need to understand that you are not doing this to us – those of us over a certain age – we generally can cope – but you are doing this to your daughters, and grand daughters. And these young women see what is going on and to be fair to them many don’t like this and many don’t consider themselves left.

                    It is them that you expect to change with males in the public showers in gysm, swimming pools etc. It is them that you expect to compete against males in sport. It is them that you expect to be called a birther, a birthing body, a birthing parents so as to not upset males that will never be called mother cause they will never give birth. And if these young females opt out of the female sex category by virtue of very expensive plastic surgery – paid for by the tax payer – thanks very much, i can fully understand it. Cause i would not want to be female in a world were females are barely tolerated because you still need them to produce the next wave of workers and canon fodder.

                    You want to blame people for not voting the 'left' or what masquerades as the 'left' , you want to call them right-wingers, do so at your leisure. Just know that you are one of the many here and elsewhere that does the pushing away of women. And you think you are being a progressive. And kind. 🙂

                    And fwiw, in the meantime no meaningful resources for Transpeople have been created, because the state was so cheap they took any infrastructure created by women and just told the blokes to come and get it, we will have your backs.

                    Essentially a disservice is done to both, women and transpeople.

                    Defining my terms: Women – human female. Daughter – the female child Grand daughter – the female child of ones child. These terms to not apply to any males.

                    • Molly

                      Thank you, Sabine.

                      "And fwiw, in the meantime no meaningful resources for Transpeople have been created, because the state was so cheap they took and infrastructure created by women and just told the blokes to come and get it, we will have your backs."

                      As you note, the political movement and kindness credit has come with little practical and concrete help for the transgender community. The not inconsiderable amount spent appears to go on consultation, employment and promotions.

                      Practical needs are:

                      • Improved access to therapy;
                      • Investment in clinical reviews of evidence for current guidelines of transgender healthcare to ensure patient-centred quality care,
                      • Support for young people with same-sex orientation,
                      • Third spaces when appropriate,
                      • Accessible and quality care for detransitioners

                      (Just want to add, framing it as a one-issue voting technique is simplistic and often wrong. Greens and Labour have both underwhelmed me on other issues as well as this. But I also will not vote for deliberate incompetence when it manifests).

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Wrong link for the fourth quote above – apologies to Janice & Shanreagh.

                  I couldn't bring myself to vote national or act, even holding my nose, so I have decided to vote for te parti Maori. I certainly could no longer vote for labour or the greens…
                  .https://thestandard.org.nz/letting-women-speak-in-aotearoa-new-zealand/#comment-1941028 [25 March 2023]

          • Incognito 12.1.1.2.2

            In a nutshell: a weaponised pawn in a cynical power game.

          • Patricia Bremner 12.1.1.2.3

            Interesting Drowsy M Kram … so… if I have understood …

            The Right are homophobic and patriachal mainly.

            So, to have two "disliked" groups fighting each other could be a vehicle to further these beliefs and cause a wedge.?

            devil Cat and pigeons?

            • Drowsy M. Kram 12.1.1.2.3.1

              yes

            • Anne 12.1.1.2.3.2

              Thank-you Patricia for your input yesterday. You have managed to get across what I was trying to, but not hitting the mark. It is indeed wedge politics and it saddens me so many intelligent people are falling down the rabbit holes that have been dug for them. – generally speaking that is.

              You and I are the same age and we have seen this 'wedge' game played out many times. It doesn't just apply to politics but other social settings too. There are others who can see what is happening so I hope they continue to comment.

              In my view there has also been a little bit of bullying going on here @ TS which is not helpful.

              • Patricia Bremner

                I have admitted in the past to areas of bias, but over the last while I have felt saddened by the fixated discourse, with no shift in tone or self awareness. No looking from another view.

                I was commenting on an idea that this’ felt familiar.’ So I reread comments and concluded it had become wedge politics.

                Drowsy M Kram's scholarship showed in far clearer terms what was occurring. The sense that the issues while concerning and real were being used to wedge groups to harden their stance to not vote or change their vote, was clarified.

                Weka, you and Incognito show huge tolerance for a wide range of abilities and views, and do hours of valuable work, I am glad my idea caused some interesting and informative exchanges.heart

                So thankyou and special thanks to Drowsy MKram. Always solid and researched. yes

                Proving this is possible but difficult.
                A point being, perhaps we support women’s spaces, and also fight for trans spaces.
                After all, it is not so long since it was “women and children’ and the social oddity the “spinster”.

                • Anne

                  I agree with you about DMK. He/she takes the time to thoroughly research his points and I thank him/her for his diligence.

                • Shanreagh

                  Proving this is possible but difficult.
                  A point being, perhaps we support women’s spaces, and also fight for trans spaces.

                  Thanks Patricia. I million years ago I would have supported this notion as fair and equitable. Not now

                  My priorities are 99.9% I fight to ensuring that women have the right to all the safe spaces and keeping an eye out for possible legal breaches/threats to these.

                  .1% if I have time, for trans spaces but I may be washing my hair smiley

                  This is a something that the trans lobby should be working on for themselves noting that should it involve trangressing the rights of women I, like others, will be down on them like a tonne of elderly bricks.

                  Weka had some words about peak trans and what it means/t and I find this describes the journey I have taken. I see in early posts I thought it was a human rights issue for the trans community and was supportive. This not an unknown starting point until the real agenda is revealed.

                  https://www.peaktrans.org/

                  I am afraid reasonableness, courtesy, recogniton move mountains in my world. Threats, bashings, diminishing of free speech just show me how close we are to bullies and how far away we are from the civilsed people we claim or want to be.

                  • Patricia Bremner

                    Shanreagh, I think it is still a human rights issue. We are all human.

                    It comes down to discussion or stances imo.

                    So that 99.9% has ended any reasonable discussion.

                    .surprise1% while you are "washing your hair"

                    That is that then. So all trans are bad in your book.?

                    That is of course a rhetorical question.

                    • Shanreagh

                      That is that then. So all trans are bad in your book.?

                      That is of course a rhetorical question.

                      And a leap in logic. It means that I am placing my effort where it means most to me.

                      It means, unlike the efforts I made with homesexual law reform, civil unions, abortion rights etc, I don't see this is something I will fight for.

                      I see that women have much more to lose. Women are my primary focus.

                      Human rights are not 'made' by taking the human rights from one group to give them to another group.

                      And besides I don't like being told that men are women, ie that it is possible in biology for this to happen.

                      If the thought had been transwomen identify as women, rather than are women and we had gone from there to promoting safe spaces that did not involve women giving up their safe spaces I might have seen this differently.

                      With those beliefs above and with the violence shown against women who were trying to listen to women's issues at Albert Park the wish to help has been pushed away.

    • Incognito 12.2

      Very good comment, thank you!

      Wedge politics always works well against the political Left, as it has tendency to fracture (self-explode) and eat itself. It is the Achilles heel of the Left.

  12. Belladonna 13

    A fascinating use of archaeological DNA technology to inform scientists about the wider range that Kakapo had in the past, and the much broader range of diet which is open to them.

    Hopefully will help significantly in broadening their range in NZ as the population teeters back from the edge of extinction.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/what-scientists-just-discovered-about-nzs-critically-endangered-kakapo/5B72RQHEJ5AOBG3RGGWSHRYEFE/

    As one of my favourite birds, and an archaeology geek – this makes me doubly happy.

    • RedLogix 13.1

      Stoats, weasels, rats and feral cats. If only we had an efficient way to control them.

      Incidentally as I type this, I can look out my window here in Perth and watch a flock of Red Tailed Black Cockatoos – munching up gum nuts. Parrots are really such audacious creatures – the kea being an especially bold creature that just owns it's space like few other birds.

      I recall reading somewhere that it is thought that parrot species arising in ancient Australia may well be the earliest truly intelligent species in our evolutionary timelines.

      • Belladonna 13.1.1

        Stoats, weasels, rats and feral cats. If only we had an efficient way to control them.

        1080.

        https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/methods-of-control/1080/why-we-use-1080/

      • Belladonna 13.1.2

        Kea are another of my favourites – such smart, smart birds.
        I often wonder if ‘personality’ is an indicator of intelligence.

        • RedLogix 13.1.2.1

          Many years ago I was working deep in Fiordland assisting with a geology project. This was before satellite PLB's and our only form of communication with the outside world – many days tramps away at best – was a daily 6pm Mountain Radio Schedule using a portable SSB transceiver. Because we were so far away it was important to erect a decent antennae each evening; usually between trees or rock outcrops.

          This particular evening I had set it up across the gully we were camped in, and a fine job it did with an excellent signal. But the resident kea was most perturbed at our uninvited intrusion into his domain and was noisily cruising up and down the gully expressing considerable disapproval. Until of course the inevitable happened and there was an almighty squawk, flap and a thud nearby. The end of the antennae whipped out of the the tent and on exiting rapidly to find out what had happened we were confronted with an infuriated tangle of kea and radio wire rolling about on the ground.

          It was an undiluted image of embodied outrage.

          The radio being suddenly all my responsibility I had to don several thick layers of clothing, the strongest gloves we had – and then spend a good half hour gingerly untangling this mess with as little harm to kea, wire and myself in that order – as possible. When finally freed the damn bird hopped off a few metres, still yelling abuse, then swooped about undeterred until finally it was dark or he got bored with it I cannot tell.

          Being totally unafraid of me handling him, it was clearly the injury to his pride which irked him the most.

          • Belladonna 13.1.2.1.1

            Wish we had a "Like" button!
            I bet there was a lot of bad language on all sides, yours and Kea's

            • RedLogix 13.1.2.1.1.1

              Odd how memory works. I sometimes couldn't tell you what I had for breakfast yesterday, but moments like this from decades ago are still crystal clear.

              And yes there was a lot of 'f-word' – but I have since discovered this is an important technical term across the whole of the Australian mining industry. Besides it was probably the one word the kea and I shared in common.laugh

              • Tony Veitch

                Once, also in Fiordland and many years ago, some careless tramper left the door to the longdrop open. One or more keas got in and spread a roll of toilet paper all over the nearby forest!

          • Anne 13.1.2.1.2

            I vaguely recall a TV documentary (it might have been Attenborough) that claimed the Kea as the most intelligent bird on the planet.

            Years ago when doing the Milford Track we climbed a mountain – a hill to you I'm sure RL. We were warned about the keas at the top and told not to leave anything lying around. Sure enough we were greeted with the sight of 20-30 keas sitting in total silence in a nice neat row along a ledge and looking oh so meek and mild. Somebody, lulled into a false sense of security, momentarily put their lunch on the bench beside them. Whoosh… it was gone in seconds.

            Little blighters, but you can't help loving them.

          • Shanreagh 13.1.2.1.3

            What a fabulous story Red.

            I have this view of the both of you and kea looking at each other grimly and thinking 'let this be done' through gritted teeth, if keas have teeth!

            And Tony and Anne!

    • Anne 13.2

      Belladonna @ 13

      Funnily enough I googled Sirocco earlier today, before linking in to TS, to see if he was still alive and kicking. He is indeed and for a bit of light relief from the past few weeks I give you the world famous parrot umm… enjoying himself:

      https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-z/kakapo/sirocco/

      • Belladonna 13.2.1

        I have actually met Sirocco!
        Quite a number of years ago, my brother gave me a 'close encounter' with him for a significant birthday. It was at Auckland zoo, and I got to get up close and actually touch him. It was an amazing experience.

        I know, some people are anti zoos, and captive animal experiences – but he is a *magnificent* ambassador for kakapo – and if people care about him, they're more likely to support the efforts to save the wild population.

        I've also had Greg the takahe on TiriTiri peck the shoelaces out of my shoes – but that's another story.

      • Anne 13.2.2

        Damn I changed the link but it disappeared. This is the better link:

  13. newsense 14

    I think this is a interesting in the 3 Waters context.

    For some of us the awkward treaty, a result of (don’t laugh) humanitarianism in the colonial office, is a starting point.

    For others, those that holiday in Hawaii or who talked about how the South Africans got it right or talk about Stone Age culture, they look at Australia, Hawaii and elsewhere and wish imperial might had settled New Zealand affairs and that Maori, in their view, can not be considered partners. We’re talking about different countries.

    3 Waters allowed some of those holding these views to express them publicly.

    1973- a genuine nuclear free and apartheid free moment! Trevor Richards on 1973.

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