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Open mike 27/09/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 27th, 2022 - 135 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

135 comments on “Open mike 27/09/2022 ”

  1. Tony Veitch 1

    The latest Jonathon Pie rant!

    He could quite easily be talking about Luxon and the Natz – they (the Tories and the Natz) share so many values (Luxon said so in a tweet!)

  2. Jenny are we there yet 2

    More saber rattling by the official Kremlin mouthpiece, RT

    RT, repeats and reinforces Putin's threat to use nuclear weapons if the Russian Federation faces military defeat on the battlefield.
    Claiming that a Russian defeat in Ukraine is an existential threat to the Russian Federation, a defeat that that must be reversed with nuclear weapons, if all other options for achieving victory in Ukraine have fails.
    In a contorted act of logical jujitsu, RT turns the responsibility for Russia using nuclear weapons onto the US.

    …..So many of Russia’s so-called red lines being breached without consequence from the start of the Ukraine war have created an impression that Moscow is bluffing, so that when President Vladimir Putin recently issued another warning to Washington, saying that “it is not a bluff,” some people concluded that it was precisely that. Yet, as recent experience demonstrates, Putin’s words deserve to be taken more seriously.


    • Adrian Thornton 2.1

      I guess RT were referring to this Cuban missile crisis…

      “The planners therefore faced a serious dilemma: they had in hand two somewhat different proposals from Khrushchev to end the threat of catastrophic war, and each would seem to any "rational man" to be a fair trade. How then to react?”

      “One possibility would have been to breathe a sigh of relief that civilization could survive, to eagerly accept both offers and to announce that the US would adhere to international law and remove any threat to invade Cuba; and to carry forward the withdrawal of the obsolete missiles in Turkey and to carry forward the withdrawal of the obsolete missiles in Turkey, proceeding as planned to upgrade the nuclear threat against the Soviet Union to a far greater one, of course, only part of the global encirclement of Russia. But that was unthinkable.”

      “…of course, the idea that the US should be restrained by international law was too ridiculous to merit consideration. As explained recently by the respected liberal commentator Matthew Yglesias, "one of the main functions of the international institutional order is precisely to legitimate the use of deadly military force by western powers"


      • Jenny are we there yet 2.1.1

        What is it, about whataboutists?

        “one of the main functions of the international institutional order is precisely to legitimate the use of deadly military force by western powers”

        Matthew Yglesias

        I wouldn't disagree with that.

        But instead of decrying this state of international affairs, Whataboutists are all about using the example of the deadly military force exercised by the western powers, in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Guatemala etc. as an excuse for Russia and its allies to do the same. Even if it means supporting the use of nuclear weapons, even if it leads to genocide.

        • Jenny are we there yet

          What Rule-Based International Order?

          Simon Waxman – Boston Review, March 2. 2022

          Putin’s war in Ukraine breaks the rules, but powerful states always do. Far from dying, a just global order remains to be built…

          In announcing that Russia would intensify its eight of years aggression against Ukraine in the interests of “denazification” and protecting oppressed Russian speakers…..

          …..the official position of the United States is that Russia is undermining a rule-based global order that supposedly has prevailed since the close of World War II.

          ….It is indisputable that, in practice, the rule-based global order evoked both by Russia’s critics and by Russians calling out the United States does not exist. Where was it in 2003? Where was it when NATO bombed Yugoslavia in 1999? When the United States bombed Libya in 1986? When the United States supported a coup in Honduras in 2009, or the coup in Iran in 1953? Where, for that matter, was it when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, to muffled grumbling abroad? Russia has repeatedly targeted civilians in Syria while the rest of humanity yawns.


          "…..a just global order remains to be built."

          Whataboutists don't want a just global order, they want an unjust global order shared more equally between the rival imperialist powers, even if it takes world war to achieve it.

          The defeat of Russian imperialism by the people of Ukraine and the people of Russia will be a victory for people everywhere and a defeat for imperialism everywhere.

          5 Russian Enlistment Offices Hit By Arson Attacks – Reports

          Down with all imperialists and colonialists.

          Slava Ukraine

    • mikesh 2.2

      RT turns the responsibility for Russia using nuclear weapons onto the US.

      It is US weaponry that is winning in Ukraine. Ukrainians, as far as the US is concerned, are just cannon fodder.

      • Jenny are we there yet 2.2.1

        "It is US weaponry that is winning in Ukraine."


        What a load of rubbish.

        Weapons of war, like all tools, need someone to wield them.

        Weapons don't win wars, people do.

        If people weren't fighting to free themselves from Russian imperialism, the Western imperialists would have no where to send their weapons.
        With or without foreign military aid, the people of Algeria, the people of Vietnam, the people of Syria, the people of Ukraine will fight for their freedom regardless. Western supplied weapons have shortened the war in Ukraine that is all.

        "The long arc of history bends towards justice"

        Martin Luther King.

        Western supplied weapons have shortened the long arc of history.

        • Blazer

          'Weapons don't win wars, people do'-tell that to the Nth American indians when they first encountered the Gatling gun…and to Maori when they first come across …muskets!

          • Jenny are we there yet

            'Weapons don't win wars, people do'-tell that to the Nth American indians when they first encountered the Gatling gun…and to Maori when they first come across …muskets!


            You still need people willing to wield them, if they could get their hands on them, of course.

            If the Maori and native Americans were happy with having their lands stolen and taken over, and didn't want to fight the invaders, it wouldn't matter how much weapons you gave them.

            Because they couldn't get their hands on these weapons they were slaughtered and displaced by the invading British imperialists and colonialists

            Now if the Maori and the Native Americans had been supplied with these weapons by a rival imperialist power opposed to the British Empire….
            It would have been a different story.

            Sort of dismantles your argument that Ukraine shouldn't be supplied weapons from the West.

            Don't you think?

            • Blazer

              No I don't Jenny.

              It's obvious that people need to utilise weapons….

              It's a bit like you turning up to a gunfight with…a knife.

      • Jenny are we there yet 2.2.2

        "It is US weaponry that is winning in Ukraine."


        What a load of rubbish

        Weapons are an important factor in war, but not the decisive factor; it is people, not things, that are decisive. The contest of strength is not only a contest of military and economic power, but also a contest of human power and morale. Military and economic power is necessarily wielded by people.

        Mao Zedong

        He aha te mea nui o te ao?

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    One of those rare UN speech that isn’t just hollow hyperbole and empty rhetoric….the Global South is once again showing the way forward for Leftists around the world.

    Also check out the UN speech of Honduras’ new left-wing President Xiomara Castro. She denounced colonialism, “neoliberal injustice,” and corporate exploitation while calling for multipolarity….“Never again will we carry the stereotype of a banana republic.”


  4. Ad 4

    Will lower taxes lead to a stronger economy in the UK?

    Why is the value of the British pound falling and what is a mini budget? (openaccessgovernment.org)

    Let's see what this economy looks like after 6 months.

    Signs aren't good.

    • Adrian Thornton 4.1

      An unbelievably stupid reactionary economic policy…and in the face of a brutal winter that many millions of British citizens will probably never forget…it is hard to imagine any sane person enacting trickle down economics at this point, she has gone completely rouge.

      Europe is looking more and more shaky as the weeks go by…Tuss (an actual nutter) a week or two ago, an actual Fascist just elected in Italy, disaster and suffering for everyone involved in the Ukraine…the extreme Right emboldened throughout Europe like it hasn’t been since the 1930’s…we are probably going to be watching one country after the next fall to the Right…things are starting to look extremely dangerous

      • Sanctuary 4.1.1

        The United Kingdom is really one long, sad tale of gross economic and political mismanagement by it's ruling class stretching back to the 1880s.

        Britain being the first country to have a political revolution in the 17th century gave it the political institutions that were the basis that allowed it to be the first country to harness the industrial revolution and gain a great empire and huge wealth. It's failure to have a second political revolution of any sort post the Great War condemned it to a continuation of the muddling rule of an incompetent and increasingly ossified ruling class when radical political reforms was still possible.

        Nowadays, the UK is rapidly decling into the status of an emerging market economy, and Kwasi Kwarteng has delivered the sort of budget you tend to get from emerging market economies – a looting of the public coffers in favour of an entrenched economic Latifundia built on rent taking and speculation buttressed by increasingly harsh and repressive policing and a sympathetic right wing popular media to maintain social order and justified by a fig leaf of naive, wishful-thinking, supply-side economics.

        Some institutions decay faster or slower than others, so you've now got a situation where a completely decayed Conservative government of supply side fanatics is trying to do one thing, but as fast as they do it the less decayed Bank of England is doing the opposite. And all the while, the pound is crashing and British standards of living are going down the gurgler with it.

    • Poission 4.2

      NZ$ fell 2% overnight,now trading at .5628,interest rates will rise accordingly.

      The flash crashes in the UK,and globally will have left some hedge funds with big losses on long positions.

      Here 9% mortgages by new year are real possibilities.as bank margins on lending are at record lows ( .4% in 2 yr).

      • Ad 4.2.1

        What are you observing in price trades our key commodities like:

        – Oil, diesel, and petrol

        – Fertiliser, PKE

        – Basket of imports

        I am just guessing that if our $$ fall is that bad and likely to stay that way, we are in for one scream of a Christmas.

        • Poission

          Oil product basket falls overall,due to demand destruction (volume decreases) as discretionary spend decreases.Diesel prices will remain high due to substitution for gas ( standby generators and oil fired power stations etc).

          Freight rates fallen (container) and going back to pre pandemic levels ( us china 20k down to 3k) balanced by shipping slowing (speed reductions to reduce fuel cost).

          Fert costs high,where imported,some building product decreases (extrusions etc) as demand reduction in Australia and asia.

          China in big problems with debt issues (exposure to emerging markets) and debt to US banks,as US$ removes any doubt on Yuan being a reserve currency.

          The big risks are with Super investments in growth products as opposed to value, here to attract investment interest rates need to be higher.

          • Ad

            Plenty of Kiwisavers pretty unhappy already.

            Gordon Campbell will not be the last to comment on the British shock impact for us:

            Gordon Campbell on what Britain’s tax cutting spree means for us – werewolf

            "As a result, the cost of everything – from oil to food to consumer goods to the technology we need to grow the economy – is going to skyrocket. Luckily, the prospect of a global slowdown is already pushing down the price of oil on world markets – but our fading currency will mean that none of the benefits will flow on through to Kiwi motorists. Finally, the rising price of imports will fuel inflation, thus posing a tricky decision for the Reserve Bank – should it keep on raising interest rates to curb inflation, or will the relentless hiking of the cost of investment succeed only in stopping economic growth in its tracks?"

            This together with interest rates over 7% sounds like change of New Zealand government all by itself, and not much it can do about it.

            • Poission

              The days of easy money are over,and will be for some time,as is spending into the unproductive sector as we need to rebalance the twin risks of a high current account deficit with a high rate of government debt.

              Orr said productivity increases are needed,a better use of resources also.Information is poor with cpi being quarterly,fiscal updates sparse ,if large economies can impart the information monthly,so can NZ, this reduces shocks and can induce better redistribution.

              NZ business also need to understand that cost plus pricing is costly for their business,and look to reduce debt rather then dividend or share buy backs etc.

              On the other side of the coin,we are also coming into spring fully,with good growths and decreasing fresh food prices,the winter electricity maintenance is mostly over and there are no tight generation windows for 200 days.The busy manufacturing season for NZ with is primary focus sees more available electricity with solar,decreased residential use,and very large hydro storage at around 140% of historical vol.This will keep pricing low outside of high load windows.

      • Bearded Git 4.2.2

        Poisson-while the fall of the NZ$ versus the US dollar will push up some prices, most other countries currencies are also falling against the greenback, so this will not necessarily increase inflation significantly.

        In any event, interest rates are not raised to protect currency values, they are raised to dampen inflation.

        • Poission

          Interest rates and currency are entwined,Yesterday the flash crash in sterling was when markets in Asia opened,the only mechanism for reducing risk was currency depreciation,when the Uk debt markets opened,the flash crash was in the Gilts,and the pound appreciated.

          here with the NZ$ we were closed so only currency valuations available as a risk relief valve,as interest rates increase on the secondary markets the kiwi should stabilise.

        • Poission

          The other part of the currency exchange is it makes trips overseas more expensive for activists,and makes NZ cheap for tourists from the US or AUS.

        • Poission

          As stated earlier the NZ$ has appreciated with the NZ debt markets now open.and a .63% rise in currency with a 13b rise in the 2 yr bond and a 19b rise in the 10 yr bond.


        • pat

          Unfortunately the USD is what everyone wants/needs so it will…and likely disproportionately

  5. Joe90 5

    A nighmare in the making for home owners.

  6. Sanctuary 6

    As global demand drops, local storage capacity runs out and US allies respond to prodding from Washington and increase supply, India has stopped buying Russian oil. This REALLY turns the screws on Putin's war economy, as India had been one of the biggest customers for post-sanction Russian oil.

    • Sabine 6.1

      It is going to hurt Russia to no end to not sell their oil to countries who have no oil. Ditto for Gas.

    • Francesca 6.2

      India is skipping this month because of freight costs.Its an entirely economic decision and does not mean it has ditched its neutrality.Meanwhile Sri Lanka ups its Russian imports, along with Myanmar, and of course China .I don't think skipping a few shipments is going to bring the Russian economy crashing to its knees.

      And those Indian imports were also helping to keep other countries solvent


      • Sanctuary 6.2.1

        "….Its an entirely economic decision and does not mean it has ditched its neutrality…"

        The wider picture is India is ditching Russia as an ally and moving closer to the West.

        Also, “freight costs” might not entirely be the result of the invisible hand…

        • Francesca

          Paraphrasing Bill Maher "Wake me up when they leave SCO"

          • Sanctuary

            Indian sentiment began to turn away from Russia after the way they were basically stiffed by a chaotic extortion racket over the purchase of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya – Russia simply became a country it wasn't worth trying to do business with. Indian loss of faith in Russia as a reliable supplier of high quality weapons is why they decided to buy the French Rafale fighter.

            The biggest catalyst for change though was the confrontation with China a couple of years ago and the jolting realisation that the Indian armed forces had little to no chance of winning a war of any kind with China. Since then they've shaken up an army locked into a regimental tradition that still includes much of the protocols and pomp of the Raj and they've looked at the reduction of Russia to a Chinese vassal and decided that buying not very good weapons from a dysfunctional gangster state that is completely beholden to their most likely enemy isn't a good idea.

            As far as the Indian ruling elites are concerned the west has got the best weapons and the shopping is much better too, so why not go with the west?

  7. weka 7

    Standardistas might want to hash this one out, because it comes up here too. Six tweets, starting below. Comment here or on twitter.

    • Sabine 7.1

      On the grounds of my sex. Nope.

    • Molly 7.2

      Greens have lost all four eligible voters in this household.

      Not just because of their promotion of gender ideology, but their inadequate analysis and proposals on climate change, housing and inequality.

      • Francesca 7.2.1

        I sympathise with your disappointment.I remember though when Pete Hodgson was in charge of climate change issues , back in the early 2000s, he was quietly begging grass roots climate activists to kick up a ruckus, so as to give him traction within his own party who were dragging their heels .Its up to us to really make climate change response an electoral issue, shaming all parties to act

        • Molly

          Disappointment is not the word. Disdain is closer.

          Attitude towards those that are adversely affected by their proposals or policies. Failure to spark public interest or discussions. Supporting knee-jerk National Policy Statements on productive soils, but not strongly advocating for one on climate change – which will have immediate effect on all local government planning documents, sending emails celebrating divisive policies or implying credit for other's achievement, performative political posturing, throwing feminists out of the party…etc.

          As I said, disappointment is not the word.

          I will not be persuaded by any form of: "…better than the alternative".

          As a small party, they have some leeway to take risks, and represent people – not chase elections. They don't.

      • Sabine 7.2.2

        I would like to know the carbon footprint of puberty blockers, sex re-assignment surgery, sexual assaults in unisex changing rooms including filming under the stalls revisions of sexual re-assignment surgeries gone wrong, health issues due to wrong sex hormones and the likes.

        Like seriously how much is that worth in carbon credits?

        And how can those that no longer can be defined make a difference when they no longer exist in law and language?

        • Molly

          I just can't see the appeal of the Green Party in it's current form.

          • Sabine

            I honestly would just like to see this question answered by someone.

            Anyone. Really.

            But i don't think the purple clad genderbread fairy of the Green Party would approve of such a question. Nor would the person from the Green Party who thinks that the 'c' word is empowering. Or the persons in the G and L Party who think sex work is work, and surrogacy is a money making venture for poor persons with child bearing abilities and who pretend that both are empowering to persons who have nothing else to sell other then their bodily orifices for sexual use by customers or the use of their reproductive organs and the selling of the children they birth.

            I will totally never vote for any parties that have no issues with these things and / or promote these things as progressive.

            • Anker

              Hear, hear Sabine. Couldn't agree more.

              Nor would I be keen to vote for a party whose leader stood up at a memorial for those who lost their lives in the Chch atrocity and acuse NZders of racism (when the murderer happened to be an Australian). I mean WTF. Terrible judgement. If we are all so racist, how come so many turned out in support of the muslim community

        • Anker

          Interesting points Sabine. Not to mention the carbon foot print on those massive prothetic breasts………

          The Greens and Labour lost my vote over the gender ideology stuff. What that did is open my eyes to all the non delivery that is the Labour Govt.

          The increase of the PMC and their salaries and the disdain they treat health professionals with are just further nails in the coffin.

          Having watched submissions on the gender self id bill, I cannot bring myself to vote for a party that believe mad things such as sex is on a spectrum. And your transphobic if you don't want a male person in your change room

          • weka

            who will you vote for? Do you think any other party doesn't support self ID?

            • Sabine

              Legalise Aotearoa

              Social Credit

              humpty dumpty

              my dog

              my cat

              Sometimes we cast votes to be on record that we support a person or party. And i did that in 2016 were i voted for the green party in support of Metiria Turei.

              In 2020 i voted for a third party as my questions of 'where too' when confronted wit the slogan of 'lets keep moving' was not answered.

              And sometimes we cast votes to be on record that this is not happening in my name. And this will happen this time around.

              This shit is not happening with my support. And anyone who votes for any party that does support that shit must then live with the fact that that too was something they supported with their voice/vote.
              Never mind all the shit that has happened in Rotorua in the last three years. 11% local unemployment. LOL, and i am to vote for this? Lol. So it might be different for you in Dunedin, maybe you are actually having a sane person running, but some of us are not so lucky. It is shite, shite or shite, only dif the color of the shite.

              • Molly

                I agree. Also voted in support of Metiria Turei, even while thinking to myself, it looks like the Green Party supported the policy behind the public statement, and then collectively all took several steps back, when the pushback was immediate and negative.

                Leaving her isolated, undefended and ultimately, ejected.

                Looking back, I should've taken more note of this incident. The integrity of the organisation was shown here. Good political strategy no doubt, but not appealing to me.

                • Sabine

                  Yes, that was a watershed moment for the Green Party, but they dropped her faster then they would have dropped a hot potato. It was an interesting time, and in hindsight, an innocent time. I still thought that voting actually matters. The last few years have made it quite clear that no, voting matters very little, and just because it shines does not mean it ain't cat – gold. Buyer beware.

            • Anker

              I have not decided who I will vote for yet.

              (Humpty Dumpty sounds like an interesting choice though Sabine).

              If I don't vote, it will be a deliberate choice.

              I am struggling to decide who to vote for in my local body elections.

              • Sabine

                Humpty Dumpty would be a perfect candidate for any party.

                "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."

              • adam

                The Māori Party are talking about how to live/adapt to the coming environmental changes coming.

                They seem to be the only one with some sensible ideas on how to cope with the shit storm which is on our door step. We 'ant reversing the temperature any time soon, and the facts are we a locked into 2 degrees, possibly more.

                • Anker

                  I am not aware of what the Maori Party are saying on CC.

                  I am really unsure about them as I watched them interviewed and one of the things the said was that they would abolished prisons. This seems naive to me.

              • weka

                Ok, well I think I understand why the radicalisation away from the left is so pervasive. If you won't vote to stop a Nact government, then what is the point? Please don't tell me that Nact and L/G/Mp are the same.

                • Sabine

                  Please tell us where anyone here said that N / A are the same?

                  And please tell me why you think that Legalize Aotearoa and Social Credit are not on the left.

                  If the L party looses, if the G party loses anymore support from the public, it is up to L and G to do some soulsearching (if they still have such a thing) and act accordingly. Personally i think neither party is able to do that, ego is all they have, and thus chances are they will eat humble pie at election night because they are so full of themselves that they can not read the room.

                  But the fear of it will be worse? I live in a town that is dead, full of homeless people with no where to go and no jobs to be had, 11% unemployment and mixed sex going to be everywhere. Worse? Define worse.

                  • weka

                    Please tell us where anyone here said that N / A are the same?

                    It's a common position on the left Sabine. I was pre-empting someone running that superficial argument.

                    And please tell me why you think that Legalize Aotearoa and Social Credit are not on the left.

                    No idea if LA is left or not. SC are. I didn't say they're not. I haven't made any comment about LA or SC.

                    I am however starting to wonder if someone can call themselves lw if they won't vote to stop a Nact government.

                    if the L party looses, if the G party loses anymore support from the public, it is up to L and G to do some soulsearching (if they still have such a thing) and act accordingly. Personally i think neither party is able to do that, ego is all they have, and thus chances are they will eat humble pie at election night because they are so full of themselves that they can not read the room.

                    Elections in NZ are won by the middle. Swing voters. This is how Labour got the majority in 2020. That is very unlikely to happen again. Polling is showing that the middle has shifted to Nat a bit (L/R blocs are neck and neck).

                    Labour are a centre left neoliberal party, and they act accordingly. They have to deal with the pragmatics of that swing vote.

                    The GP are largely dependent on liberal voters, those that swing between GP and Lab.

                    So please tell me what soul searching you want them to do, and what actions you think they can/should take. Details please, because that was the point of the opening tweet, to have a discussion about the various ways in which radical change could play out.

                    I'm asking this because it's easy to throw out a bunch of rhetoric about what L/G should do (we all do it), but I want to see deeper thinking of those ideas grounded in real politik and how parliament, government and elections function.

                    • Sabine

                      remove self id.

                      that is one thing they could do. But they will not.

                    • Sabine

                      Just for the record, i never voted to keep someone out of government. I vote to get someone into government.

                    • weka

                      Sounds like you would rather have a NACT govt upholding self-ID than a L/G/Mp one.

                      Just for the record, i never voted to keep someone out of government. I vote to get someone into government.

                      That's nice. Meanwhile, outside of your principles, voting for SC or ALCP is a defacto vote for Nact. I don't make the rules, that's just how it works. If you're ok with Nact, then vote however you like. If you value things like beneficiaries, housing, climate, ecology, vote on the left for parties that will be in parliament.

      • Bearded Git 7.2.3

        Molly-the Greens are not in government and so have little power over the CC policies of this government.

        If people vote Green at the next election such that a coalition something like Lab 34/Gr 10/MP 4 takes power then the Greens will be able to greatly influence CC policies.

        It follows that you should continue to vote Green. (Unless your hatred of the Greens gender policies over-rides you climate concerns, which frankly would be silly)

        • Molly

          Read above.

          "It follows that you should continue to vote Green. (Unless your hatred of the Greens gender policies over-rides you climate concerns, which frankly would be silly)"

          The Green Party approach does not alleviate my climate concerns. It heightens them. They are ineffective, timid – often don't spook the horses – simplistic proposals that ignore impacts, and assume a lot. Their housing policies and inequality proposals are similar. Their policies extend the problem, they don’t resolve them. Even worse, they often give the impression that something is being done to solve, allowing focus to move on.

          Oh, yes. Wanting coherent, effective proposals on what I consider important is "silly".

          I will refrain from telling you what I believe your political priorities to be and who to vote for. Because, quite frankly, I'm not that arrogant.

          Vote for parties that soothe your concerns and make you feel good if that is your priority.

          • Tony Veitch

            If, for even a moment, you think that the Natz and Act will come up with better climate change policies and so deserve your vote – well, I've got a bridge for sale!

            • Molly


              "The attempts to shame voters into casting votes for particular parties – by use of terms such as racist, bigot, silly can provoke resistance and have a negative effect on many. I try to avoid an emotive response to such shenanigans, and stick to process."

              Tony, I don't know whether it's my personality, or the fact that over the years I have dealt with children I love, attempting this technique at various times, but my reaction to this approach is that it is juvenile, and has demonstrably failed in many elections in various countries in recent years.

              If a party with clear policies on my priorities is available, it is likely that party is the one that will receive my party vote. Attempts to shame elicit a 'meh', if I can at all be bothered to respond. So, meh.

              You get to make your own vote depending on your stated sole priority: ie. Natz and Act will NOT come up with better climate change policies, and regardless of what I think of your selection process, that is your right.

              • Tony Veitch

                I was suggesting you are naive to reject a party because ALL their policies do not jell with your wishes/hopes.

                To my way of thinking, a vote for a very minor party with no hope a getting into parliament is a wasted vote – though I do accept that is the nature of our representative system.

                To me, that only leaves the 5 'big' parties and much as I think Labour has fallen far short of my expectations (and I suspect most on the left would agree), when I glance across at the Natz and Act, Labour and the Greens are my only viable alternatives. I have party voted Green for the last three elections, though I live in ChCh Central and vote Labour.

                To miss use Margaret Thatcher’s (I think) phrase – there is no alternative! TINA.

                • Sabine

                  Sometimes a wasted vote is good for the consience of the voter. Some of us have not voted for the current government ever, not once and not twice. So those of us can not make this current government fail. They never had 'our' vote.

                  Last, there are more parties then L/N/A/G and people can and should vote for them if they believe that they are representive of them and their ideas, and fwiw, if people don't vote for the small parties i.e. The Greens 🙂 or TPM 🙂 then they have no reason to exist and we could go back to a FPP system. And where is the fun in that. And would L win on its own again in 2023 without support from some of the 'vote wasting ' small parties?

                  • Tony Veitch

                    Believe me, the last thing I would like to see is a sole Labour govt. We need the Green and Te Pati Maori in coalition with Labour to drag the party left!

                • Molly

                  "I was suggesting you are naive to reject a party because ALL their policies do not jell with your wishes/hopes."

                  No, you weren't. But I'll let you keep that, without making the honest comment you deserve.

                  You have absolutely no idea of my wishes and hopes, nor how I have analysed policy.

                  So, can you refrain from telling me who to vote for according to you, and I will refrain from having to find acceptable written words in response.

                  • Tony Veitch

                    No, you weren't.

                    Perhaps you might refrain from telling me what I meant. After all, I'm not responsible for how you react to what I say. I certainly can't help it if you feel defensive!

                    • Molly

                      "Perhaps you might refrain from telling me what I meant. After all, I'm not responsible for how you react to what I say. I certainly can't help it if you feel defensive!"

                      Sure, Tony. I guess you come from the school of DoAsISay, not DoAsIDo.

                      Unless you have something persuasive to add about any of the parties policies… let's call this vote drive unsuccessful… and leave it there.

                    • Tony Veitch

                      ??? and ?

      • weka 7.2.4

        Not just because of their promotion of gender ideology, but their inadequate analysis and proposals on climate change, housing and inequality.

        Who will you vote for?

        • Molly

          I'll do what I usually do. I'll bring to mind all the work and comments of political parties during the last term (and more) and then I'll visit their policy pages, as they near the election. By that time, those policies should be as good as they can get them. I'll ignore the polls, and vote for those whose policies align (with the proviso that policies are clear) and who are the most trustworthy.

          The pool of options is getter smaller every election.

          Agree also with Sabine’s comment above, to not support any parties whose policies cause active harm. And to the use of my vote to signal protest.

          (If Sabine’s dog does stand for election, that may be where my vote ends up.)

          • Sabine

            this generally is my process.

            read up,

            listen to talks, go to meetings

            and then vote for the least evil among them.

            Currently my vote sits with Legalize Aotearoa. For all the good reasons that L and G ignore. Business creation. Tax income. Removing the plant from the crimes act into the agricultural act ( a bit like abortion was moved from crime to health), make use a health issue, free up Police time to go after bigger fish, take pressure of Justice, remove people from Home D or Prison if they are in it for growing/selling/using.

            L/G/N/A can all do the same, in fact i am surprised that ACT is not running with legal/tolerated weed. I would have thought it would be part of the ueber liberal / libertarian crowd.

            • Molly

              I can't actually see a more reasonable way of allocating a vote, to be honest.

              The attempts to shame voters into casting votes for particular parties – by use of terms such as racist, bigot, silly can provoke resistance and have a negative effect on many. I try to avoid an emotive response to such shenanigans, and stick to process.

              By the by, did I recall you mentioning that you were on Twitter?

              • Sabine

                I am in the twitter poo box cause i am not deleting my tweets. 🙂

                I can live with that.

                • Molly

                  Damn, I've only been active in the last few months. Surprisingly, not yet on the block. But apparently shadow banned or deboosted according to a couple of messages I've received.

                  Seems to be the only place to get information and have discussions about certain topics, so it took me a while to get over my social media aversion.

          • weka

            based on what is currently known about policy, who would you vote for?

      • weka 7.2.5

        the tweet wasn't about who people vote for. It was about the idea that the Greens could usefully go full Turei. I'm interesting in your thoughts on that.

        • Sabine

          they had since 2016 to do that.

        • AB

          Turei herself went full Turei on poverty and inequality. She correctly said that the benefit cuts of the 90's were inhuman and as a solo parent she found a way of getting round them to secure some extra income. This triggered 'respectable' commentators into denunciation of her as a benefit cheat. So-called benefit cheats (aka extra-legal rational self-maximisers) are a fantastic wedge issue for the right. No issue could be better for turning parts of the working class and natural left voters against each other. So strategically, it was a bad issue to go full-Turei on.

          Would going full Turei on climate change be any different? Probably not. Remember Izzy Cook from a few days ago and remember XR in the UK getting criticism for disrupting working class people from getting to work and earning a crust. They would be pilloried for hypocrisy – with Taxpayers Union goons going through their rubbish looking for -plastic packaging or evidence of excessive food miles, or whatever. If you are going to demand that the rich live a bit more like the poor, expect the full wrath of their economic, political and media power. Keeping the activists at arms length is more likely to be successful in the long run – even though the odds are low and declining.

          • Molly

            "So strategically, it was a bad issue to go full-Turei on."

            Depends what the strategy was. If the strategy was to purge all the older Green politicians whose focus was on environment and poverty, then the strategy was successful.

            If the strategy was about poverty, then the decision to make Turei's public announcement, should have anticipated the obvious pushback and have had strategies and stories ready to counteract that push. They didn't. They instead murmured "How sad, how terrible…" and used her as a signal that they were not ALL benefit bludgers.

            "Probably not. Remember Izzy Cook from a few days ago and remember XR in the UK getting criticism for disrupting working class people from getting to work and earning a crust. "

            This is not about raising the issue. The SS4C incident was about non-preparation, and the XR targets are sometimes off the mark. Disruption (and possible harm) to random members of the public, is smug at best, alienating at worst. There are multiple targets of those in power, that are ignored.

            Acknowledge those mistakes, learn from them and move on.

    • Ad 7.3

      We're pretty keen on Shaw in our network. There isn't a Labour equivalent.

      In 2023 Greens should state whether they are going to be part of government. That would show the commitment we'd need.

      • weka 7.3.2

        In 2023 Greens should state whether they are going to be part of government. That would show the commitment we'd need.

        I'd be very surprised if that wasn't their position, and if they didn't make it very clear. It's what they do in election year.

        • Ad

          They need to state not just which of Labour or National they'd prefer, or just "confidence and supply" from the crossbenches.

          They need to be all in. That would tell me they are prepared.

          • Louis

            Then they are prepared. See 7.3.3

            • Ad

              No that is James Shaw is prepared. Pretty big difference.

              I'm looking for a stated intent to be in coalition government.

              Linking to the Greens at their flakiest is a bad idea if you want Labour people to come over.

              • Louis

                As co-leader James Shaw represents and speaks for the party. "firmed up 'their strategy' to back Labour in 2023…the Greens can improve Ms Ardern's government' That is a stated intent to be in coalition government with Labour.

                • Ad

                  "Can improve" is by no means the same as "will commit to joining coalition"

                  Shaw is on record from your own link about how his own members distrust being in government. Hes also on record acknowledging he hasn’t taken key activists with him. That is why the confirmation of ‘go into government’ is a long way from ‘can improve’.

                  I’d say he’s learnt that the hard way.

                  • Louis

                    "Some old-school activists want the Greens to rip up the deal and campaign in opposition" However..

                    "There's absolutely no appetite amongst our voters for change of government"

                    "There are (Greens) who are concerned at the compromises associated with being in government … and that you could, from a place of opposition, be more effective by shifting public opinion and putting pressure on the political system.

                    "I sit at the other end of the spectrum. And I think the majority of members do. As a political party, our job is to get into government and to make change that way."

                    Julie Anne Genter backs Shaw saying "If we were polling four per cent and climate change wasn't an issue people were concerned about, I would be like, 'This is not working, we need to walk away from the agreement'…"Things are looking pretty good. It's looking like the plan is working"

          • weka

            They need to state not just which of Labour or National they'd prefer, or just "confidence and supply" from the crossbenches.

            They need to be all in. That would tell me they are prepared.

            Prepared for what?

            Every election the Greens reiterate that they won't form govt with National. It's a decision made at the membership level, not something the caucus can change (technically I think there is some way they could but it would be suicide). Afaik it would be something that went through and AGM.

            So it's a given that the only government formation option is Labour.

            As for the cross-benches, unless there is some unforseen turn of events, as I said above, I think it's highly unlikely that the Greens would go into an election doing anything other than affirming they want to be in government with Labour.

            That's not a free ride for Labour mind, it's an intention that if the numbers are there this is the GP preference. They will want to be a part of the government with Ministers and shit, and that stuff gets worked out post-election.

            • Ad

              Prepared to commit.

              Don't give me your bullshit about "free ride". The Greens have done nothing but free ride off Labour for years.

              If the Greens want to attract Labour voters, they have most of next year how to do it.

              • weka

                Don't give me your bullshit about "free ride". The Greens have done nothing but free ride off Labour for years.

                your regular reactionary antipathy towards the Greens aside, you were asking for commitment, and I was pointing out that the Greens aren't going to guarantee support for Labour. It will depend on numbers and what happens in the election. Just like with any other party.

                But, for the third time: GP won't go with Nat, they will support a Lab govt, they're already committed to this. It's a long play from the Greens and it started before Labour were on board. It's not a guarantee, because the GP will have to see what's on the table. Just like any other party.

                And, the Green Party (ie members) has a lot of say in what happens. Shaw can't decide how things go.

        • Louis

          yes Weka

      • Louis 7.3.3

        'Mr Shaw said the leadership debate firmed up their strategy to back Labour in 2023, arguing the Greens can improve Ms Ardern's government'.


        • Ad

          Not likely to get an actual intent to be in government with Labour until close to election day.

          • Louis

            'firmed up their strategy to back Labour in 2023' is pretty clear.

            • Ad

              Good for left or right alignment, nothing more.

              If Shaw wants to bring Labour voters over the fence he knows he'll need to be more convincing. Let alone more convincing to his own Delegates.

              • Louis

                I thought winning 97% of the vote was convincing.

                'Mr Shaw is taking his return to the co-leadership less as a personal victory, and more as a show of support for his approach to politics'.

    • Stuart Munro 7.4

      One of the strengths of the Greens used to be that they were not addicted to the sinecures of power, which let them maintain the coherence of their policies without compromise. I associate that stance more with Jeanette than with Metiria, for all that I approved of her initiative.

      I stopped supporting the Greens as they abandoned environmental issues for social stances probably better left to Labour: migration & gender activism that negatively impact ordinary New Zealanders.

  8. joe90 8

    The entitlement is strong in these thieving pricks.

    The British royal family has given broadcasters in the UK a deadline of today to pick just one hour of footage they would like to keep for future use from the Queen’s funeral and the King’s proclamation ceremony, despite the fact that millions of people already saw it all livestreamed on several platforms, according to a new report from the Guardian.


    Where does that leave online coverage, something you’d assume could live on the web forever? The royal family already had at least five short clips from the Queen’s memorial and funeral services at Westminster Abbey and Windsor Castle purged from UK media websites, according to the Guardian, though longer streams still survive for those who know where to look.


    No, the royal family would like to make sure you don’t see things like King Charles III impatiently making one of his servants take away a pen holder at the desk where he proclaimed himself king. In the video, which went viral on social media, Charles looks like an entitled prick, which is precisely the kind of video the royal family doesn’t want circulating after losing the queen—a woman often compared to a neighborly grandmother and a much softer image for a group of people who are hoarding immense stolen wealth.


  9. adam 9

    So this happened in Italy, whilst Poland has already gone their, Spain looks next, then probably Sweden. So these guys are on our side? Then who the hell are we? As far right and post fascist as them?

    It's a fascist love in, on one side this mob, on the other the Russians.


    • Ad 9.1

      We're going to have to engage with all remaining democracies, while they are still democracies.

      It's not like there's a global expansion in the left or in democracy itself.

      • adam 9.1.1

        Really want to ignore South America and central Africa their Ad? Left wing governments all over the place, looks like even Brazil may go back to the hard left.

    • joe90 9.2

      Meloni is connected to Bannon. They were interviewed together by The Guardian in 2018.

  10. Booker 10

    Seems like no one has posted this in the Open Mike for the last few days – a piece by Al Jazeera about the Corbyn-era anti-Semitism crisis in the UK's Labour party:


    • Bearded Git 10.1

      I have listened to/watched two and a half hours of this so far. It is crystal clear that Corbyn (who has fought racism all of his political life) was ousted by shady and ruthless pro-Israel people and groups, and that this has the blessing of Starmer.

      If I was back living in the UK Starmer's Labour would never get my vote.

      Brilliant work by aljazeera.

      • adam 10.1.1

        What did Malcolm X say again…

        “The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses.”

    • Stuart Munro 10.2

      Yes – it shows two things – Israel has no problem with stymying democratic representation in other countries.

      And Starmer is a treacherous pos with about as many redeeming features as Roger Douglas.

      • AB 10.2.1

        Corbyn only ever had one chance – to catch everyone by surprise in 2017. Having got close in 2017, he was never going to get another opportunity. The vilification ramped up after that. If he'd won in 2017, it would have been riveting to see how far the establishment went to remove him and whether they would have disgraced themselves by botching it somehow. Though the metronomic precision of the Queen's funeral suggests that the execution would have been near-flawless.

      • Blazer 10.2.2

        On the same page..there..

  11. Robert Guyton 11

    "Experts say ditching concrete and creating mini wetlands could help water systems cope better with effects of extreme weather"


    "People should flood their gardens and create bogs in order to stop the effects of drought and reverse biodiversity loss, according to the head of Natural England.

    Tony Juniper, who leads the government quango, said that concreted-over front gardens, and backyards which do not hold much water, could contribute to sewage spills into waterways as surface water runs off the hard or dry surfaces.

    He recommended that people turn their gardens into wetlands, which can hold water and prevent run-off. This would also create habitats for many creatures."

  12. joe90 12

    I doubt spying was the issue.

    Japan’s government on Monday banned the export of materials that may be used for chemical weapons to 21 Russian organizations, including science laboratories. The measure was approved by the Cabinet following a decision by Group of Seven foreign ministers last week.


  13. observer 13

    I suppose they will edit and correct eventually, but this is the level of accuracy you get from the NZ Herald online:

    Another political opinion poll is due out tonight, the 1 News Kantar poll, which in August had National on 48 per cent and Labour on 44 per cent.

    Wrong and wrong. Hopeless.


    • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1

      Ha – the NZ Herald, typing one Key to the right, as per usual.

      National Party 37%, Labour Party 33%.

  14. If this is as reported (and I have no good reason to doubt it), I find it absolutely shocking


    I expect our Police to act within the law – rather than illegally gaining access to surveillance cameras in an attempt to track people by reporting a non-existent crime.

    Police have confirmed that by inventing a crime and falsely listing the vehicles as "stolen" it allowed access to the powerful tracking capabilities of the privately owned systems.

    Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson said the situation concerns him, saying he expects police to act inside the law at all times.

    I'm 100% with Roberson on this one.

    While I recognized the desire of the police, at the time, to track people they believed were breaching the quarantine regulations – there are legal avenues for them to follow to achieve this goal.

    • Anne 14.1

      Its a bad look alright but to be fair to the police, it was the beginning of the pandemic which was a time of uncertainty and fear because nobody knew at that point what the outcome was going to be. The police were on the front line and it must have been a stressful time. That’s when mistakes are made.

      My guess is, they believed the situation warranted an immediate response regardless of other considerations because of that uncertainty.

      As it turned out the whole emotively charged drama was unnecessary because the young women had been given permission to enter Northland – albeit as it turned out erroneously. I have some compassion for the person who made the mistake in the first place. They must have felt terrible and probably hid under a rock for a few weeks. 😯

      • Belladonna 14.1.1

        It's a bridge too far for me, Anne.
        If the police can choose not to abide by the law, then how can we condemn the criminals for doing the same thing?

        They had legal alternatives – to achieve the same goal (tracking the people they believed at the time were illegal quarantine evaders) – and chose not to use them.

        We can be kind, and put that down to the stress of the pandemic. But when the first reaction is to break the law, rather than find a way to achieve your goals within the law, you have to wonder at the culture.

    • Stuart Munro 15.1

      Costco is really not a premium venue. It is a discounter, offering (hopefully) cheaper alternatives. To the extent that it weakens the supermarket duopoly, that may be a good thing – but Costcos success is emblematic of the failure of neoliberalism to be the rising tide that lifts all boats. Kiwis need discounters because of the gross and sustained failure of Rogergnomics. It has utterly failed.

      • AB 15.1.1

        Yes – the same way that so many people need the cheap imported stuff at The Warehouse because they no longer work in well-paying jobs in local manufacturing or the like, but instead in minimum wage hospitality and retail jobs in places like The Warehouse. i.e. we need what it provides only because it exists in the first place.

      • Sabine 15.1.2

        How much is the member ship fee?

        • Molly

          $60/yr.- Membership

          Random recent NZ article about benefits:


          "Research shows that club store prices can be 22.5% lower than traditional supermarkets.

          Already, Costco’s store-adjacent petrol station in Auckland, which opened in April, has had a significant impact on fuel prices in the neighbouring community.

          As the world’s third largest retailer, Costco has significant buying power to support its everyday low pricing strategy.

          Costco buys in bulk, allowing the store to achieve economies of scale creating savings which can then be passed on to members. The company limits the mark-up on merchandise to between 14 and 15% above costs. "

          • Sabine

            Oh boy. a membership fee to get access to discount food distribution center. We have out progressed us. Aldi on steroids.

            • Molly


            • Belladonna

              You also have to be afford to buy (and be able to store and use within the product lifespan) quite large batches of goods.

              It might make financial sense for large families and/or people clubbing together to group purchase (as some currently do for Gilmores, etc.).

              It's also possible that small retail (dairies, etc.) might be able to shop there, rather than at supermarkets (I know that there's discussion about wholesale access for retail shops – but I remain deeply cynical that it will ever eventuate).

      • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1.3

        I find our local 'Reduced to Clear' good – nice round trip walk of ~90 minutes earlier today. Not a substitute for supermarket shopping, but an inexpensive supplement.

        • Belladonna

          I shop at one as well – though not within walking distance – about 20 minutes drive away. I bundle a trip there every month or so, with other necessary road trips in that direction.

          It's a bit like op-shopping – you never know what is going to turn up on sale.

    • DB Brown 15.2

      I think having Costco here is a good thing for many reasons.

      If we're to let corporations take over we could do a lot worse, like Amazon.

      "Costco is often cited as one of the world’s most ethical companies. It has been called a “testimony to ethical capitalism” in large part due to its company practices and treatment of employees."


      "Our research highlights many ethical issues for Amazon, including climate change, environmental reporting, habitats & resources, pollutions and toxics, arms & military supply, human rights, worker's rights, supply chain management, irresponsible marketing, animal rights, animal testing, factory farming, use of controverial technologies, political activies, and anti-social finance."


      • Belladonna 15.2.1

        I haven't done any research into Costco and/or whether or not it's a good thing for our economic environment.

        I suspect there are arguments both ways.

        It was the idea of people queueing to be first through the doors which struck me as bizarre. Perhaps I'm just not queue minded 😉

        • DB Brown

          Yeah I get that. Some people love being first in though. And the promise of reduced prices in these trying times, pretty attractive…

          Or (Satire) a damning indictment of DOC's park upkeep, that people would rather go camping in shop doorways.

          Costco already sells NZ goods in their stores offshore, and now they're here, will be checking out what else we've got. That's good for our producers and manufacturers. Meanwhile providing good jobs with good prospects and good money.

          Whereas Amazon is good for NZ like a boa constrictor is good for rodents.

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