Open mike 10/11/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 10th, 2023 - 73 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

73 comments on “Open mike 10/11/2023 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Dennis Frank 1
    10 November 2023 at 6:15 am

    We're seeing Labour's blame culture again:

    Newshub has obtained a complaint made to Labour from their mother. She accused Andersen of yelling at her daughter and son on election night, telling them, "Maybe you should have done some more door-knocking" in an aggressive way and making them feel like this was the reason Labour and Andersen lost. The mother also details another time her daughter couldn't volunteer because she was going on a family trip and Andersen allegedly yelled at her on the phone. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/ginny-andersen-doesn-t-deny-bullying-allegations-in-phone-call-with-newshub.html

    In 2020, the mother said her daughter mixed up home addresses and Andersen called her "useless" and "made her feel little", it alleged.

    Newshub was among multiple media outlets which were sent this complaint – the source said they were leaking it because they were unhappy with the Labour leadership's handling of it.

    So this pattern of behaviour has been continuing for three years. Everyone naturally wonders what makes a leftist so nasty. Why default to copying the right when we need a positive alternative? Is self-improvement and character development really impossible for left-wingers? I doubt it.

    Something in their culture makes them want to take the easy way out instead. You'd think Labour's leadership would have learnt from Kiri how to respond to complaints. Apparently not!

    • AB 1.1
      10 November 2023 at 9:36 am

      Nah – just about every workplace has some of this stuff. What we are seeing is a fundamental disjunction that is seldom mentioned – that irreconcilable conflict between highly-pressured modern work and the growing cultural phenomenon of individuals believing they have a right to feel 'empowered'.

      The more cynical among us might think that the promotion of the idea that ’empowerment’ is possible despite being in a position of subordination, is a deliberate attempt to disguise the fact of subordination.

    • Louis 1.2
      10 November 2023 at 11:21 am

      "Outgoing Police Minister Ginny Andersen has said she "doesn't recall" yelling at a teenage volunteer and calling her "useless"

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/labour-mp-ginny-andersen-doesn-t-outright-rule-out-yelling-at-teenage-volunteer-calling-her-useless.html

    • Gabby 1.3
      10 November 2023 at 11:50 am

      I imagine the things that make leftists angry and the things that make Frankses angry are similar.

    • Barfly 1.4
      10 November 2023 at 12:45 pm

      "In 2020, the mother said her daughter mixed up home addresses and Andersen called her "useless" and "made her feel little", it alleged"

      If that occurred Why the fuck is the individual hanging around for more? Masochism? It's hard for me to understamd why someone would keep going back for more for a volunteer position frankly it beggars belief.

    • ianmac 1.5
      10 November 2023 at 3:11 pm

      Funny how it is potential high flyers in the Labour Party who get accused of "bullying."

      This complaint contains nebulous things like "shouting at" and "blaming." The complaint is from the mother and includes the Election night accusation just 3+ weeks ago. Who leaked the complaint to media? Labour Party? Ginny? And with case in the alleged stage how come the Media, especially Newshub, are so certain of Ginny being guilty?

      This smacks of Dirty Tricks to me.

      • Dennis Frank 1.5.1
        10 November 2023 at 4:33 pm

        My take, reading the subtext, was that it was authentic. Seems like a committed Labour family, to have sustained the volunteering despite the bitching…

        However I sympathise with your scepticism. Once upon a time I naively assumed that anyone who joined the Greens would be ethical! frown

      • Anne 1.5.2
        10 November 2023 at 4:58 pm

        Funny how it is potential high flyers in the Labour Party who get accused of "bullying.

        And they are nearly always Labour women.

        As for the past attempt to smear the Hutt Valley Labour Party's financial arrangements with a union which amounted to a paltry few thousand dollars per annum:

        how much of that $8 billion lodged in the Nat’s campaign kitty was dirty money? It would not surprise me if it was quite a bit.

        Two can play at that game.

    • SPC 1.6
      10 November 2023 at 3:46 pm

      One leftist, all leftist … really?

      • Dennis Frank 1.6.1
        10 November 2023 at 4:28 pm

        Not really, of course. Generalising is just a thing people do, part of human nature. One can often find exceptions to a general rule…

  2. RRM 2
    10 November 2023 at 6:56 am

    Too many gins in Ginny and the mask slips. This doesn't sound very #kind. Gaurav was right.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301005635/labour-investigates-bullying-complaint-against-mp-ginny-andersen

    And even Labour Party people don't like Helen White, want to see her fail:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/election-2023-amelia-wade-analysis-labour-insider-hopes-helen-white-loses-recount-another-says-she-s-condescending-entitled.html

    Looks like the wheels have completely fallen off. The next Labour PM isn't even in parliament yet.

    • pat 2.1
      10 November 2023 at 7:19 am

      As David Mitchell says (paraphrase) in the attached link…'yes they're all horrible, but the "good ones" are those who maintained stability and didn't play favourites'

    • Visubversa 2.2
      10 November 2023 at 8:16 am

      "Some" Labour people. We also had the "Backbone Club", the "Mike Moore Supporters Club", the "Anybody But Cunliffe" crowd, and a whole collection of past egoists, misfits and wreckers. We survived them – and we will survive this.

    • Barfly 2.3
      10 November 2023 at 8:34 am

      Aw

      "The next Labour PM isn't even in parliament yet."

      Neither is National's it's in recess ya numpty! cheeky

      • Incognito 2.3.1
        10 November 2023 at 9:09 am

        National’s future leaders tend to be ex-CEOs such as the current one who parachuted from above from Air New Zealand into the Party. None other NZ political party follows the vertical trickle-down of power as blatantly as the Nats; it’s in their blood. Unsurprisingly, the number of female MPs in National is low, not to mention the representation of other social groups in the NZ population.

        • alwyn 2.3.1.1
          10 November 2023 at 10:26 am

          "National’s future leaders tend to be ex-CEOs ".

          That is an interesting hypothesis but do you have any evidence for it having occurred at any time prior to Luxon?

          Hamilton? No

          Holland? – No

          Holyoake? No

          Marshall? No

          Muldoon? No

          McLay? No

          Bolger? No

          Shipley? No

          English? No

          Brash? Yes, for a very short period. Broadbank and the Kiwifruit Authority I believe.

          Key? No

          Bridges? No

          Muller? No

          Collins? No

          Hardly very much of a Trend, is it?

          • Ghostwhowalks 2.3.1.1.1
            10 November 2023 at 5:08 pm

            Key wasnt a CEO , but like Luxon, Muller were corporate ladder climbers, who got near or at the top

    • Louis 2.4
      10 November 2023 at 11:13 am

      Gaurav was proven to have bullied his staff, he was also a headache to PS. The way Amelia and Tova were speaking to Helen White, this looked like a media beat up to me.

      "You guys are really going for me, is there any particular reason?"

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/election-2023-labour-s-helen-white-still-proud-of-result-despite-just-20-vote-victory-recount-happening.html

      • Incognito 2.4.1
        10 November 2023 at 11:24 am

        FYI, RRM is a RW troll whose natural habitat is over at KB.

      • Anne 2.4.2
        10 November 2023 at 5:13 pm

        "You guys are really going for me, is there any particular reason?"

        Helen White made the stupid claim that she had "done very well" in Mt Albert when she clearly had not. In doing so, she opened up the opportunity for the gotcha journos to "go for her". She should have had the sense to say nothing.

        • Louis 2.4.2.1
          10 November 2023 at 11:19 pm

          I can see why Helen White said that when other safe Labour seats went blue.

          • Anne 2.4.2.1.1
            11 November 2023 at 9:41 am

            The problem with that Louis, Mt Albert was regarded as the safest Labour seat in the country. Most people thought it would be impossible to turn that seat around.

            The last time Mt.Albert came under threat was in 1975 when Muldoon offered a massive superannuation bribe which brought NZ close to bankruptcy nine years later. Even then the margin between the two parties was iirc somewhere between 250 -300 votes.

            • Louis 2.4.2.1.1.1
              11 November 2023 at 1:02 pm

              Covid has turned everything upside down. Auckland's anger over the last lockdown, and as the election showed, Labour seats were not safe. 2020 red wave. 2023 blue wave.

              • Anne …
                11 November 2023 at 7:29 pm

                yes

                To put it bluntly, the majority of the population don't give a tinker's cuss (as my old Dad used to say) about anyone but themselves and who belongs to them.

                • Dave W …
                  15 November 2023 at 10:37 pm

                  Helen White did really well to keep our electorate when cabinet ministers went down with Michael in Mt Roskill, Deborah lost New Lynn for the first time since the electorate was established in 1964. Peeni lost Tāmaki Makarau (although it is suspicious and unfair having a polling booth in the marae that the leading opponent was CEO of).

                  Melissa Lee had more experience and brand recognition than Carlos Chung and Paulo Garcia. But for Helen and her fantastic campaign team's hard work, then there is no question that we would have lost this seat too. Ricardo Menenmendez-March has name recognition and it was disappointing the Greens campaigned so hard for the electorate vote with a two ticks green campaign (unlike Mt Roskill and New Lynn). Some would call that selfish. There were boundary changes and high end housing being completed that also made it harder for Helen than for other Labour MPs – yet she still won!

                  The attacks by media, particularly Amelia Wade at Newshub supported by Jenna Lynch, Tova, and the green party attack blogger Martyn Bradbury on The Daily Blog are disgraceful. Helen's professionalism and skill as a leading lawyer are clearly evident. If Helen was in Wellington, we'd miss her, but she would have easily won Rongotai or Wellington Central. It is just not as easy for us getting votes in Auckland as it is in Wellington!

                  The statistics also show how well Helen did on the party vote. Next door in Epsom we got under 15%! Helen got 27% which is slightly HIGHER than the nationwide average. In surrounding electorates the party vote dropped more than in Mt Albert. Yes the tide was going out swiftly and so heavily in Auckland so we dropped a bit from 48.6% party vote in 2020 to 27.0%. But in New Lynn we dropped even more from 53.3% down to 27.3%, in Te Atatu from 58.1% down to 33.0%, in Mt Roskill down from 55.7% to 30.0%, Kelston 61.9% to 38.0%, Pakuranga 41.8% down to 16.3%, and Takanini 54.5% down to 27.1%. In all of these electorates Helen again outperformed. This is why this media beat up defies the statistics and Helen is absolutely 100% right, that she did very well. It really annoys me them attacking an obviously extremely hard working diligent MP that ran an excellent campaign in the face of attacks from both left and right. I fear the media are making up leaks by not naming the sources – as they will not exist.

                  We are lucky to have patriots like Helen White representing us, and without our brilliant and super-talented campaign team in Mt Albert, then this too would have joined the majority of Auckland electorates in turning blue too.

                  This storm will pass. Helen did brilliantly to hold our electorate in light of everything. Just sticking up to and pushing back to media makes us admire Helen even more. We can only thank Helen so much for her service. We are lucky to have someone of her calibre, that cares about people, worker's rights, a great health & education system, and providing affordable housing.

                  • Anne …
                    17 November 2023 at 9:44 am

                    Only just discovered your comment Dave W.

                    I grew up in Mt Albert and was closely aligned to the Mt. Albert Labour Party in the 1970s and part of the 80s. I shifted to the North Shore in 1984 and lost contact with my former Labour colleagues.

                    Before me, my father and Warren Freer [who was the MP for Mt Albert for 34 years until Helen Clark took over in 1981] were good friends so my ties went back a long way. It seemed inconceivable that Mt Albert could ever fall to the Nats but now that you have explained the back-ground I can see what happened.

                    Since making those comments we have seen further negativity aimed at other women Labour MPs and former Cabinet Ministers. Ginny Anderson is the latest.

                    There seems to be an orchestrated attempt to discredit them, in part perhaps to cover-up for the National Party's less than skillful attempts to organise a coalition government.

  3. lprent 3
    10 November 2023 at 9:57 am

    Hopefully fixed the update problem with TS on mobiles. The update to WordPress 6.4 broke the theme used for the mobile plugin.

    Just trying to clear the offsite cache now to force a update.

    • lprent 3.1
      10 November 2023 at 10:40 am

      Nope. The problem appears to be with the mobile plugin not loading CSS. Pushed it back to the plugin support. Disabled the mobile plugin.

      I will have a look at it tomorrow and see if I can identify the bug.

      • weka 3.1.1
        10 November 2023 at 12:19 pm

        any chance the commenting fault on the desktop version can be fixed? Still can't reply to comments. Safari on iOS 17.1.1

        I think this is why some people don't use the reply button and just do a new comment.

        • Barfly 3.1.1.1
          10 November 2023 at 12:48 pm

          Reply button working fine for me on chrome

        • lprent 3.1.1.2
          11 November 2023 at 10:20 am

          Hunting around for a testing site that lets me look at a recent iOS (and doesn't want an ongoing subscription).

          I asked my partner, but it appears that her iPhone has developed a fusion with her hand. I might add that I feel this way as well about my S23, but I am in a cafe at present on their internet because a moon boot on my foot is leaving me reluctant to get up and extract the phone from the car.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    10 November 2023 at 11:03 am

    One outcome of the current coalition negotiations is likely to be an extra four billion a year for defense.

    Rumour has it that the navy would like to replace the OPVs and ANZAC frigates with single class of 3-5 new frigates, with the Babcock (who have a presence in NZ) designed Arrow 140 (AKA Type 31) frigate looking like the early favourite. Babcock will offer some tasty local investments to help build these ships.

    The Type 31 is twice as heavy as the ANZAC frigates and 30 metres longer. Get the popcorn out for that debate…

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      10 November 2023 at 11:42 am

      Imagine if peace-making were given parity with war-making in economic policy, and funded accordingly. An enlightened govt would deploy AI in both necessities.

      I'd like to see a global competition for leading edge tech companies to develop peacemaking AI software. Bill Gates oughta fund it. Structure the thing like a World Cup tournament, so whizzkids get to update the tech in quadriennial cycle.

      It would give leftist govts the opportunity to get runs on the board solving trad problems like the middle east…

      • Francesca 4.1.1
        10 November 2023 at 12:06 pm

        I kind of like the idea, in the absence of human rationality.

        If AI could be programmed with historical fact, a code of fairness, international law, accepted values…oh god, it's not gonna work is it?

        • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1
          10 November 2023 at 1:38 pm

          historical fact, a code of fairness, international law, accepted values

          A likely tetrad. The working model for this stuff is the one that solved the Cold War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation

          That, however, was binary. The AI must be primed with network theory plus the science of complexity to sort out shit like the middle east.

          That gears your tetrad up into a hexad. I'd toss in magical thinking to end up with a heptad: 7 elements in a design & it works like magic. Obviously one adept at mastery would kick that one in on the sly…

          • Francesca 4.1.1.1.1
            10 November 2023 at 2:50 pm

            i wonder if anyone has gamed that ?

            The problem would be including and entering the data in a non partisan manner

            • lprent 4.1.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2023 at 10:30 am

              Not to mention in a manner that doesn't constrain it in the time dimension.

              Fairness, historical fact, international law, and accepted values all morph like crazy over time. This is why law in most open states that don't make law by clique tends to lag public mores by about 30 years.

              Changes in societal attitude tend to require about that amount of time to diffuse through society enough so the balance point in favour of change tilts to making it into law or precedence.

              Reading the history of common law or legislative change is like looking at changes in local or international concurrences about what is fair, and accepted values. Frequently you see acceptance of 'historical fact' leading or trailing that process.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 November 2023 at 12:47 pm

                yes damn good comment

                Saturn cycle is 29.5 years (usually gets cited as 30), correlating with the traditional onset of middle age. As a natural archetype it provides structure (Jupiter provides growth, 11.5 year cycle usually cited as 12). Thus these two drive the economy (fear & greed).

                In mass psychology they work like this: Saturn imposes boundaries, Jupiter opportunities, thus divides & multiplications, differentials & integrals. So with law you get outlaws & inlaws, the latter being law-abiding. But folks get bored with binaries so clever buggers usually do both & success depends on timing & situation!

                That morphing effect you mentioned is due to mutable phasing within time cycles, when things are liable to mutate. Science is still stuck on the Einsteinian spacetime paradigm, a century in now, so physics education still lacks comprehension of real time, which is experiential. Biological clocks are acknowledged as real but academic silos prevent physicists learning from them. So dumb buggers still only count time. Qualia are real too, of course, but the penny hasn't yet dropped…

    • Adrian 4.2
      10 November 2023 at 11:59 am

      A while ago a good mate who was ex-navy said anything we can afford or be allowed to have, i.e super secret techo, as a frigate would only be usable in a aircraft carrier screen on the far periphery of the protection screen. I'll check with him again on the details but I had not known that aircraft carriers have up to 12-20 other ships protecting them. In other words it would be a bloody expensive sacrifical lamb on its way to the slaughter. Lets just stick to our knitting and get ships that can do more useful work than be part of a pack.

      • SPC 4.2.1
        10 November 2023 at 3:54 pm

        Sure, have ships that have more than that purpose and not committing to a fight for Taiwan.

        Oz can be defended by land based (air and missile) forces, with subs at the periphery.

      • Ghostwhowalks 4.2.2
        10 November 2023 at 4:42 pm

        Doesnt have 20 ships , maybe 4 or which are all high end destroyers and cruisers

        Carrier has its own planes to defend itself

        • Adrian 4.2.2.1
          10 November 2023 at 5:09 pm

          He said the screen could be 20kms by20kms with frigates etc on the outer.

          • Ghostwhowalks 4.2.2.1.1
            11 November 2023 at 6:33 am

            Thats too close . Most would need to be further than that , but we can see what a US carrier has as its support group now , there are two of them in the Med/Red Sea

            4 Destroyers plus a Cruiser based on the current makeup. The numbers your friend talked about are WW2-Korean War stuff

            'The Ford Carrier Strike Group has a range of capabilities, the senior defense official said. While in the Eastern Mediterranean, the strike group – consisting of Ford, Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser USS Normandy (CG-60) and Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers USS Thomas Hudner (DDG-116), USS Ramage (DDG-61), USS Carney (DDG-64) and USS Roosevelt (DDG-80)

            https://news.usni.org/2023/10/12/gerald-r-ford-csg-arrives-in-eastern-mediterranean-defense-department-says

    • Ad 4.3
      10 November 2023 at 12:39 pm

      Very interesting rumor.

      Any source to follow up?

      Just in case there's a bid coming up.

      • Sanctuary 4.3.1
        10 November 2023 at 2:00 pm

        Discussion of the RFI here (closes 15th November)

        https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/indo-pacific-2023/2023/10/new-zealand-contemplates-how-to-best-manage-a-small-fleet-of-ships/

        Babcock's confirmation of a formal offer for the Type 31/Arrowhead 140. It isn't clear to me if this is an unsolicited offer.

        https://www.navaltoday.com/2023/11/01/babcock-offers-arrowhead-140-frigate-design-to-new-zealand/

        A potential early pointer will be the Seasprite replacement, as the SH-2G is running into serviceability issues and looks like it may need to be retired earlier than anticipated. Anything in the AW101/SH-60 class would imply a vessel big enough to operate such helicopters.

        https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/new-naval-helicopter-planned-for-new-zealand

        The Type 31/Arrowhead 140 is (apart from the sticker price – which will still be a LOT cheaper than the A$45 billion the Australians are spending on the AEGIS capable Hunter class to replace their ANZAC class frigates) an attractive offer. An easy fit for the Calliope dock, it has multi-mission modules, a VLS system compatible with all the most modern guided weapons and, above all, a crew of 80-100 which is a lot less than the 162 required on an ANZAC frigate. You could have three T31/A140 frigates for the same crewing cost of two ANZACs.

        • Ad 4.3.1.1
          10 November 2023 at 3:16 pm

          Helpful pointers thankyou.

          Just in case NZF gets its coalition order in fast.

          • Ghostwhowalks 4.3.1.1.1
            10 November 2023 at 4:48 pm

            Ignore the costings for Australia frigates. Thats full life costs over 30 years. Build and buy cost is a fraction of that

            See the NZ buy of P-8 planes . US Navy contracts made public for every annual contract shows them buying ( for US and other countries) them for US$140 mill each

            'Five years ago, on 2 July 2018, Cabinet approved the acquisition of four Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft to replace the aging P-3K2 Orion aircraft – a $2.34 billion, once in a generation investment.

            https://www.defence.govt.nz/the-latest/story/fourth-and-final-p-8a-poseidon-lands-in-new-zealand

            Actual cost to buy 4 from public information US contracts is more like US$500 mill

            • Macro 4.3.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2023 at 11:14 am

              Through life cost for any major defence equipment buy is essential. No good buying a ship if you then can't maintain it in subsequent years because there is no money, or you can't train personnel to service the equipment, or operate it. Auusies know this that is why they include that figure in the overall buy. Private companies just want the sale so don't factor in these ongoing costs.

              • Ghostwhowalks …
                12 November 2023 at 12:48 pm

                Hospitals and schools are the same , but we only compare the ' built cost ' there.

                $1 bill doesnt go very far in the health system , over 25 years does it

        • pat 4.3.1.2
          10 November 2023 at 4:15 pm

          Why is it that with all the specification/operational requirements, consultation with those in Defence and independent experts, frequently existing units in operation already…sometimes for years….that we appear to almost always buy dogs, whether it be ships, armoured vehicles, helicopters, weapons systems etc.

          And it's usually within a relatively short period of time that we discover the fact.

          • Ghostwhowalks 4.3.1.2.1
            10 November 2023 at 4:51 pm

            Mostly disinformation spread by rival manufacturers who didnt get the business.

            They are complex equipment and need proper maintenance, money that often isnt made available or cut after a few years.

            • pat 4.3.1.2.1.1
              10 November 2023 at 5:36 pm

              Im basing my opinion on the numerous reports (usually) emanating from NZD itself….its a regular occurrence that some years after a major purchase a MoD report comes out listing the reasons why the purchase was the wrong one.

              • pat …
                10 November 2023 at 5:55 pm

                We appear to be regularly wise AFTER the event….perhaps some of that wisdom is needed prior?

              • Macro …
                11 November 2023 at 11:05 am

                As a general rule NZ Govt's, of whatever colour, always buy the cheapest option.

                I have been involved in the scoping and costing for replacement vessels as a Staff Officer on the Naval Staff for a period of around 8 years. I remember the acquisition of the Brooke Marine Lake class Patrol Craft in the 1970's. They were designed for Atlantic sea states, Pacific Ocean wave lengths are different and the new Partrol Craft were just not up to the task. Personal injury to crews grew at an alarming rate because of the craft tossing about in seas they were simply not designed to handle. The Admiral arranged for the four patrol craft to vist Wellington to show them off to the general public and the politicians of the time. A short trip around the harbour was organised including a short peak into Cook Strait.

                We had been requesting the Govt for hard living allowance for the crews for the Patrol Craft for some time prior. That short trip was sufficient to get the approval for the hard living allowance approved that day laugh

    • Bearded Git 4.4
      10 November 2023 at 2:48 pm

      That is four billion wasted that could be used to fix up the public health system.

      • Ghostwhowalks 4.4.1
        10 November 2023 at 4:53 pm

        Its an RFI , a wish list for 15 years away …maybe

        The frigates just finished a major update – known as half life, and its not like they even spend half their time at sea. So plenty of time if or when a new build is on the cards

  5. Muttonbird 5
    10 November 2023 at 11:46 am

    Britain is on edge this week in the lead up to a planned march in support of Palestine on Saturday, Armistice Day.

    The Home Secretary, Cruella Braverman, in breach of ministerial code, took out an article in The Times accusing the Met Police of bias for not shutting down the march. She also compared what she called the hate march with 'those we see in Northern Ireland'.

    Sky's senior Ireland correspondent explains that part, somewhat brutally:

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1722696060819124684?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1722696060819124684%7Ctwgr%5Ea73849ab6cba64bb5611788357d9ecc48d26bd85%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theforum365.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbmay%2Fstatus%2F1722696060819124684%3Fs%3D20

    • Bearded Git 5.1
      10 November 2023 at 2:51 pm

      Braverman is history. If Sunak signed off on her Times letter criticising the police for favouring the Left (what alternative reality is this?) then Sunak could be gone too.

      • Ghostwhowalks 5.1.1
        10 November 2023 at 4:39 pm

        What about commemerating the British servicemen killed by the Jewish terrorist militias during Mandate for Palestine period

        Due to the violence Britain had to station 100,000 troops there after the war, and eventually gave up handing the problem over to the UN – who thought partition to mostly new arrivals was a good idea , after a rigged UN general assembly vote ( Thailand voted No , the delegation was recalled and vote changed allowing it to pass 60% majority

        • Bearded Git 5.1.1.1
          11 November 2023 at 2:55 pm

          Wow I didn't know about that rigging Ghost.

          I do know my mother was always bitter towards the Israelis because they had killed many British troops in bomb attacks during the period you talk about above. I read somewhere the other day the Zionists blew up a synagogue during the same period, and blamed it on the Palestinians, doubtless to curry favour and support from the USA.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1
      10 November 2023 at 2:53 pm

      It is ok, certainly this is true I think:

      In fact, Israel’s ongoing industrial-scale slaughter and nationwide repression of the Palestinians, in retaliation of Hamas’s gruesome October 7 attacks in southern Israel, is both utterly criminal and terribly foolish. Israel has tried to live by the sword for the past 75 years, but it has sowed more of the same insecurity, infamy and anger. Repeating the same strategy again and again and expecting different results is indeed stupid.

      The article does downplay wrong-doing by Arabs (e.g. the above single sentence is the only mention of hamas' recent terrorist attack) and to say "If anything, the Jews have historically been the victims of racism for centuries…" betrays serious bias – in fact Jews have clearly and obviously been victims of centuries of appalling abuse, not least being the main victims of one of the worst single acts of genocide to date.

      There is not one mention of what hamas could offer – e.g. return hostages, implement a ceasefire etc. The author has written numerous articles criticising Israel and its war crimes since October 7th, but wrote only a single article (on October 7th) about the hamas atrocities – in which he made no criticism of hamas or condemnation of their appalling war crimes / crimes against humanity, but instead admiringly portrayed their despicable acts as heroic military action against Israel.

      He expressed no concern that such an attack would obviously make the current Israeli attacks likely. What did he think would happen?