Open mike 10/01/2016

91 comments on “Open mike 10/01/2016 ”

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1. Andre 1

   10 January 2016 at 7:59 am

   Some people have asked for perspective on the size of the big gas leak in California.

   http://www.carbonbrief.org/aliso-canyon-how-bad-is-the-california-gas-leak-disaster gives a good analysis.

   About the same as 440,000 cows. New Zealand in June 2014 had around 6.6 million dairy cows and 3.6 million beef cows. So New Zealand’s cow herd emits around 23 times as much methane as this California “state of emergency” leak.
   • Andre 1.1

     10 January 2016 at 8:16 am

     Whoops, correction. Just noticed their comparison was two months of the leak to a year’s worth of cow. So New Zealand’s cow herd emissions are 4 times the size of the California leak.
     • b waghorn 1.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 8:44 am

       The glearing difference is that cattle produce food (you know one of the 3 things humans can’t live without) where as a gas leak produces nothing good.
       • Once was Tim 1.1.1.1

         10 January 2016 at 9:02 am

         True … but food and shitty rivers of water. I think maybe the point being made is more to do with the inappropriate intensity of it all (maybe)
         • Once was Tim 1.1.1.1.1

           10 January 2016 at 3:13 pm

           Christ! I thought I might have had a response by now ffs!
           Andre was concerned about air quality
           I was pointing out water quality
           …. and ALL within that concept and trendy talk we now charactersise as ‘SPACE’. How very intelligent of us all eh? Time ….. and ….. Space
           ….. now what is that 3rd thing we need for humans?

           We could of course rely on the jet stream to blow away the air quality toxins, and tidal flows to disperse the cow shit and put it all into a global economy of ‘the Earth versus the Human being’.

           Mr/Ms/Ms/Mrs B Waghorn – I’m not having a go at you by any stretch of the imagination.

           I am forever amused at my neighbours however, claiming very staunch GREEN creds as they do – shuvving inappopriate things in the green counsil bags (attracting mice and rats and various other predatory creatures foreign to the area), trotting off home after drunken nites out ditching their KFC/Makkers/etc rappers and RTD containers, ….. etc.
           I think they even try to measure their ‘footprint’ – all the while forgetting some very basic inputs.
           Some of those inputs we could go into but they involve things like littering and sewer flows and condoms and ‘fanny rags’ and all that kind of thing that are best not delved into (for the sake of propriety and correctness).

           They’re about as GREEN as BROWN minus YELLOW – but at least they try when they’re half way conscious
         • b waghorn 1.1.1.1.2

           10 January 2016 at 6:35 pm

           I get this massive vibe from urban people that they do no wrong and its us farmers fucking the planet. Attacking people for playing to the rules is piontles and counter productive .
           You want to change things get a good government into power that listens to and funds scientists.
           Most farmers are OK people who get caught up in the basic human desire create and build .
           Water food and oxegen where my 3
           And comparing a gas leak in the us to cows in nz is odd
           • Andre 1.1.1.1.2.1

             10 January 2016 at 7:58 pm

             Apologies for expressing myself in a way that came across as an attack. I genuinely was only looking for some kind of comparison that we in New Zealand could relate to. At the time I put it up, I wasn’t trying to convey any kind of deeper meaning.

             However, if I were trying to express a deeper meaning, it would be along the lines of how the sum of our cumulative tiny actions in fact do add up to something bigger than a single colossal fuckup, and how we are all contributors to the problem. If I had been thinking of that at the time I would have found and added a few other comparisons.

             I agree that there’s a lot of sanctimonious criticism of others, particularly agriculture, from urban greenies that don’t have a clear picture of their own non-green habits. However, parts of the agricultural community adopt an attitude that somehow their emissions are more worthy because they are producing food and that they should therefore be exempt from scrutiny or requirement to change. Unfortunately, from a climate change perspective, cattle are really pretty bad, they turn more of their dry matter intake into methane relative to other livestock, and they require more dry matter in to produce protein out than most other livestock.

             So I’m of the opinion we really need to change how we structure agricultural incentives so that greenhouse gas emissions become a factor in agricultural decision-making. Disclosure of interest: I am a (fairly silent) partner in an agricultural enterprise, and the major part of my personal carbon footprint could be attributed to that.

             Finally, New Zealand has changed a lot in the 30 years since I was growing up and spending a lot of time in the outdoors and in rivers in particular. While there are a lot of farmers that do take pride and care in their land, a lot are frankly disgusting. A lot of the rivers that were once clean and running year round have become more akin to open sewers, and some even dry up in the summer now, and some lakes have become basically open-air settling ponds. Clean rivers and lakes were aspects of New Zealand I used to be proud of and thought were a big plus over the US. Not any more. And that’s entirely due to intensifying agriculture.
             • b waghorn …

               10 January 2016 at 8:39 pm

               No offence taken.
               I’m of a strong government mindset as people in genera peoplel won’t do what’s good for them if , I do know that its next to impossible to change someone’s behaviour by harangueing them , big carrot with an even bigger stick is the way.
             • Rodel …

               10 January 2016 at 8:41 pm

               Drove from Nelson return to Christchurch a few months ago. My most enduring recollection for most of the journey was the smell of cowshit. Not what I remember from previous trips 20 years ago.
               • b waghorn …

                 10 January 2016 at 10:31 pm

                 Couldn’t smell the carbon coming out of your exhaust?
                 • Andre …

                   11 January 2016 at 2:54 pm

                   If anyone’s interested, my quick calculation suggests one cow-years worth of methane emissions approximately equals burning 830 litres of petrol or 760 litres of diesel in your car, in terms of climate change effects.
                   • b waghorn …

                     11 January 2016 at 6:22 pm

                     Very interesting . proves the saying that when one points the finger there are 3 pointing back at you.
                   • Andre …

                     11 January 2016 at 7:32 pm

                     Just to illustrate how easy it is to do major numbers fuckery when it comes to climate issues and trying to apportion blame: that cows-to-cars comparison I just did is based on the low end of cow emission estimates and on the 100 year global warming potential of methane (which I think is fair). If I wanted to really paint farmers as climate villains, I would choose the high end of the emissions estimates for cows, and the 20 year global warming potential of methane, and claim that one cow-year is roughly 4150 litres of petrol or 3800 litres of diesel in terms of climate change effects. Yes, a 5:1 difference just by tweaking assumptions and definitions.

                     So I’m less interested in trying to pass out blame, and more interested in getting to a system where everybody’s emissions and costs become more visible and people can make rational choices to reduce them.
                   • b waghorn …

                     11 January 2016 at 8:34 pm

                     You have created a new measure . now when reporters want to compare the scale of something ,insstead of swimming pools or buses they can use cow farts.
                   • Andre …

                     11 January 2016 at 8:54 pm

                     Apparently most of it leaves by the front entrance, not the back door.
           • Sacha 1.1.1.1.2.2

             11 January 2016 at 6:46 pm

             “I get this massive vibe from urban people that they do no wrong and its us farmers fucking the planet.”

             In NZ, half our emissions come from agriculture yet they have been exempted from accountability by our current government. That might be your answer. Doubt it applies in the rest of the world, just here.

             Urbanites need to sort out our transport and energy usage, for sure. Again, the current government would rather invest our limited transport funds in duplicate 1950s motorways through the countryside than in urban public transit infrastructure which can hugely reduce emissions. And we have a broken electricity ‘market’ which now has even more pressure on it to pay out dividends to shareholders.
           • Once was Tim 1.1.1.1.2.3

             11 January 2016 at 7:11 pm

             I sure as hell hope you don’t get that vibe from me, or that you’re assuming I come from an urban background.
             Looking at your comments (including below) …. we’re in agreement.

             At the moment, I live next door to a slum landlord providing student accomodation. It’s interestin today’s media and WCC response to litter. I had to have a chortle and ask what the fuck took them so long.

             Whilst I have a slum landlord next door, I also have a procession of transient student occupants – MOST of whom claim green creds.
             Except that if you were to measure their carbon footprint …… it’d probably rival a bloody Chinese coal-fired power station.
             They ‘recycle’ (which means they chuck anything from fanny rags and condoms to festering food scraps in green recycling bags – which strangely enough don’t get collected an encourage the rodent population)
             When they ‘recycle’, they consistently put glass, RTD metal, KFC, Makkers (and whatever is the other 3rd choice of their staple diet) out on the wrong days such that it simply blows around for weeks on end. (The excuse id I imagine being that they were just a bit munted at the time – although I can’t explain why – given their claims to greenness – they make no effort to remedy their error. Christ – they even go to the Sunday Te Papa market and buy cheap veges and chuck the buskers a dime or two. It’s a shame most of the veges also rot in ‘green’ recycling bags unused during the following weak.
             If one were to measure the toxins flowing down the gutter on a rainy day from the ‘green dwellers’ in the neighbourhood – I’d have to agree that any shit entering waterways from farming wouldn’t be that much more than the absolute SHITE that ends up near Moa Point AND directly into Wellington Harbour.
             But hey …. they were pissed – some having bought their ‘bottles’ from the local supermarket (under investigation with licence being challenged) – so that’s okay then. Besides – they’ve got essays they need to submit at the last moment before the deadline, whereby they need some boxes tikked so they can get their degrees. And also besides – the landlord is a cnut so he deserves to be punished with rubbish (along with everybody else in the community.

             But as I was surmising above – it is more about intensity and whilst I’d agree that farmers are an easy target, they sure as shit aren’t doing themselves any favours – in fact if they were a bit smarter, they’d start to realise that the Natzis aren’t ekshully doing much for them in terms of medium to long term sustainability (by that I mean everything from their mates ‘mis-selling’ of financial options, to the dismantling and corruption of their co-operative [Fonterrra], to various irrigation schemes [schemes] the operative word, to fostering G R O W T H – no matter what the cost or sustainability – except by large corporates ……)

             mmmm . I’d better not go on because whilst I have the utmost empathy for the likes of the farmers just trying to get an earn to support him/herself and offspring, I’ll jeopardise that empathy witnessing the ever increasing numbers of Natzi-supporting farmers conned by promises, utter stupidity, and greed. I’m sure you know of the Mr Waghorn – theyre in your neighbourhood (and various other places where land use is better utilised, and where it is appropriate to farming – where there is a recognition of limits)
             As you say … there are 3 fingers pointing and we can spread them around.
             I’m waitng for the 4th finger that does the 360, but I fear I’ll be long gone before that fucking happens
   • sabine 1.2

     10 January 2016 at 9:37 am

     Might it be an emergency because as of 2008 there were 30.000+ People living there?
     Might it be an emergency because they are now ‘evactuating thausands of people’ from Porter Ranch?
     http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-porter-ranch-gas-leak-live-htmlstory.html
     Might it be an emergency because at some stage the methane gas will start killing people?

     Or is it only an emergency when cows are affected?

     Porter Ranch
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Ranch,_Los_Angeles
2. Tautoko Mangō Mata 2

   10 January 2016 at 9:45 am

   More on the “can of worms” TPP legal scrub weakens users rights.

   Michael Geist from Canada has written a series of articles about the TPP. His recent article is titled The Trouble with TPP, Day 5: Rights Holders “Shall” vs. Users “May”.

   The absence of users in the Internet provider section is not an anomaly. Throughout the TPP IP chapter, there are two distinct approaches. Where rights holders interests are concerned, the requirements are typically mandatory (ie. “shall”). Where the issue involves user rights or access, the requirements are not requirements, but rather non-mandated provisions (ie. “may”).

   The weak language can similarly be found in safeguards against abuse of intellectual property rights. The TPP is filled with provisions aimed at guarding against misuse or infringement of IP rights. But what about when rights holders misuse their rights? Article 18.3(2) provides more weak language

   Appropriate measures, provided that they are consistent with the provisions of this Chapter, may be needed to prevent the abuse of intellectual property rights by right holders or the resort to practices which unreasonably restrain trade or adversely affect the international transfer of technology.
3. ropata 3

   10 January 2016 at 11:25 am

   John Roughan praises Rogernomics and the fact that his children all work overseas?!?!
   #HeraldActPartyNewsletter
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11571097

   Maybe they are overseas to escape the endless stream of party political broadcasts from dear old dad
   • Ad 3.1

     10 January 2016 at 11:48 am

     You could write a counterfactual of what New Zealand would look like now if the 1984-1989 reforms hadn’t happened. Just project out a variant between Muldoon and Kirk.

     Regarding the children working overseas, if you had a science degree, or arts degree, would you really choose to stay in New Zealand? Even LPrent has got to the perfect balance between overseas and local work, and he works in code.

     The fields New Zealand’s economy supports are:
     real estate and construction, agriculture and food and beverage broadly, and tourism. It would be worth staying around for those. Otherwise there’s not much point. We are one of the most mobile countries in the world for good reason.
     • BM 3.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 12:03 pm

       The tech sector accounts for 7% of GDP, more than 124,000 jobs and growth of 16.5% pa.

       http://www.nztech.org.nz/what-we-do/business-growth-exports/
       • ropata 3.1.1.1

         10 January 2016 at 12:14 pm

         It’s growing because we are the Mumbai of the Pacific — low wages, good skills, + English. Even Auckland’s higher salaries are insufficient to living costs, if you want to ever own a house. Best option for skilled younger Kiwis is to leave.
         • BM 3.1.1.1.1

           10 January 2016 at 12:19 pm

           Whats the average salary for a programmer in Auckland?
           • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.1.1

             10 January 2016 at 12:30 pm

             Hard to say really. Beginner is somewhere between 45k and 60k. Senior coders seem to be between 90 and 120k. Most available jobs seem to be between those two.
             • BM …

               10 January 2016 at 1:27 pm

               For a beginner, 50k+ first up is pretty good coin for a 21 year old.

               100k + isn’t too bad for some one with experience either.
               • ropata …

                 10 January 2016 at 3:59 pm

                 That puts you in the top 10% of income earners in NZ and you might be able to get on the bottom rung of the property ladder. Everyone below that 100K level is screwed though.
               • ropata …

                 10 January 2016 at 4:24 pm

                 100K is still less than the median house price inflation – 120K last year
                 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11510908

                 This is unreal territory – similar to the USA before the GFC
                 • BM …

                   10 January 2016 at 7:24 pm

                   I agree, prices at the moment in Auckland are completely out of whack.

                   Problem is the Auckland council and their complete mismanagement of the cities finances and the myopic focus on “green living”.

                   They’ve created the situation that Auckland is currently in.

                   The best thing that could happen is if the government did a Ecan and took over and got the whole mess sorted.
                   • ropata …

                     10 January 2016 at 7:38 pm

                     WTF, you’re blaming the council for high house prices, and your solution is to toss out democracy?? Nice one BM.

                     Ever heard of the leaky homes crisis or the Canterbury quakes or the SuperCity rush job? Many factors have converged to screw up housing development and it’s just transparently shitty spin to blame the Council
                   • mickysavage …

                     10 January 2016 at 7:48 pm

                     The housing problem started in 2009 about the same time that super city was a twinkle in Rodney Hide’s eye. I wish the Council was focussed on green living. And the finances are fine if they stop giving businesses further reductions.
                   • ropata …

                     10 January 2016 at 9:13 pm

                     It’s the f*cking “free market” mate. Hugely distorted due to LACK of regulation by the NatCorp™ slackers
                   • reason …

                     11 January 2016 at 4:45 am

                     Do an ecan??? …… So you want the Nats to suspend democracy and fill the Auckland harbor with fecal matter.

                     Sounds like a cow of idea ………

                     Anyway I thought nationals plan for improving Auckland primarily involved giving land and money to sky city casino ……

                     Until of course they get a right wing mayor in and then they can asset strip/privatize the councils assets.
                   • lprent …

                     11 January 2016 at 2:44 pm

                     …the government did a Ecan and took over and got the whole mess sorted.

                     They’d have to call out the army, allocate a whole lot more to the courts, and hope like hell that not too many of soldiers and judges are Aucklanders. We aren’t quite as quiescent about arsehole politicians feathering their and their mates nesteggs up here.

                     Besides, the National members of the government clearly have absolutely no frigging idea about how to do fuckall. Look at the idiot Brownlee, or their appointments to the ChChRecovery, or the actual pathetic performance of the sock-puppets that they shoved into ECan.

                     Just because the morons from NACT were stupid enough to create the whole city council doesn’t mean that we disliked it – it means that we finally managed to get the power to bulldoze the fuckwits in Wellington aside. It also meant that we wind up spending this decade to improve it by removing the stupidities that those ideological idiots in NACT shoved into the mix. Like the idiotic corporate entities running our assets.
             • Lanthanide …

               10 January 2016 at 5:50 pm

               My company’s starting rate for a graduate in CHCH is $50k.
               • ropata …

                 10 January 2016 at 7:34 pm

                 That’s nice, but there are plenty of other Chch companies keeping IT salaries nice and low, just because they can. $35 K would probably be a more common starting rate. ($50 K would be for top end grads, I’m guessing)
                 • Lanthanide …

                   11 January 2016 at 6:20 am

                   Actually I think we’re towards the bottom of the market.

                   I started on $38k a decade ago.
               • BM …

                 10 January 2016 at 7:35 pm

                 Same in Hamilton.
         • fisiani 3.1.1.1.2

           10 January 2016 at 12:37 pm

           Typical moaning from the Left. Someone points out growth and there’s an immediate Yeah, But. Actually not even a Yeah. Skilled young Kiwis have always left. They are now returning in droves. It’s a beautiful day, employment is at an all time high. The economy is growing at 2.2%. Wages are easily outstripping inflation. Enjoy the good times.
           • Andre 3.1.1.1.2.1

             10 January 2016 at 12:47 pm

             fisiani, I know it’s off the immediate topic here, but since you’ve expressed enthusiasm for TPP, what are your thoughts on TransCanada suing the US for $15 billion under the ISDS provisions in NAFTA?
             • fisiani …

               10 January 2016 at 12:50 pm

               NAFTA is not the TPP. Duh!
               • Andre …

                 10 January 2016 at 12:52 pm

                 But the provisions in NAFTA that TransCanada is using are included pretty much word-for-word in TPP.
                 • greywarshark …

                   10 January 2016 at 12:56 pm

                   All the modern trade agreements have the same (un)principled terms, but apparently our coming TPPA introduced some even curlier than before. We get the best deals!
                 • fisiani …

                   10 January 2016 at 1:06 pm

                   I can assure you that there will not be a oilpipe from NZ to Canada proposal made. Strawman argument.
                   • Andre …

                     10 January 2016 at 1:16 pm

                     Outstanding evasive tactics you’re using there.

                     But here is a clearcut example of a sovereign state exercising legitimate rights, being sued by a foreign corporate, using trade agreement clauses almost identical to what our government is about to sign us up to. I am honestly curious about your views on that. So I’ll ask again, what are your thoughts on TransCanada suing the US for $15 billion under the ISDS provisions in NAFTA?
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     10 January 2016 at 1:35 pm

                     Well, we can assure you that corporations will be suing the NZ government for billions of dollars under TPPA fully negating any possible benefit that it brings and it really doesn’t look like it’ll be bringing any.
                   • Once was Tim …

                     10 January 2016 at 3:39 pm

                     Jesus Fizzz …. you really really don’t understand Indian perceptions or culture do you! (Statement not question)

                     Similarly, and perhaps more relevant – since you – is it you? that’s recently had that preoccuption with Venuzuela??? – you really do have no fucking idea.

                     I look forward to you and yours – claims of success in terms of your agenda.
                     It’ll all come with angst and battles that you (in your arrogance) no doubt are confident you’ll have an upper hand in.

                     PLEASE .
                     FTA South Amurrika (I’ve been waiting for progress in this space going forward since Chavez’s demise)
                     FTA Inja (We’ll see how Modi plays out and NZ’s treatment of Indian students – especially those sons and daughters of Indian politicians – not unlike those of the Brazilian).

                     Sorry folks – I find it hard sometimes to reconcile the fukkin IGNORANCE of the likes of Fizz’s spin. I D E O L O C I C A L and learned rote – or what!!
           • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.1.2.2

             10 January 2016 at 11:53 pm

             Employment is not at an all time high – I remember in 1980 we had unemployment of 0.5% – and it wasn’t this 1 hour a week bullshit or cancer victims being harrassed to abandon their only means of support.

             I’ve recently returned from 10 years overseas and I can’t wait to get out of this horrible shithole.

             The economy is only growing at 0.3% ex migration and Christchurch, wages haven’t kept pace with inflation for thirty years (excluding real estate inflation is bookkeeping of the kind that lands people in jail).

             The country is lost and damned, and Auckland is mostly populated by orcs.

             Best thing that could happen here is a seisachtheia.

             Gnats should all be in jail.
     • Whispering Kate 3.1.2

       10 January 2016 at 1:49 pm

       Yes Ad, our young people go overseas for better job prospects and also to see the world as they have always done here. Two things which result in this mass migration is firstly these days they have the opportunity to come and go with air flights bringing them home within their salary range that they are earning overseas. In the 60’s it was a one off to go overseas as the sea travel was hideously expensive and you went over and stayed overseas for as long as immigration allowed you to. If that young person today has the luck of a UK father they can gain the Euro passport and the world is their oyster. Its great for them and I say good luck to them as the NZ we live in is not the lovely place it used to be – that pristine haven at the bottom of the world.

       Secondly there is a knock on effect of these long stayers overseas, the negative side of it is it dislocates families and takes away that cohesive society we used to have of two or three generations all living close by and supporting one another. I know many many people who have kids away some as long as 17 years and longer, its lovely when they come home, say every 2-4 years but it still breaks up families. We always want the best for our kids but nevertheless its a different kettle of fish to the 60’s when one went for 2-3 years and then came home and settled down. NZ then wasn’t so bad to come home to.

       I never gild the lily with my kid and her partner when they come home, they get the truth of what this country is all about and they are shocked at the cost of housing, food and other utilities we have to pay for. She owns a beautiful home which would cost 2 mil here and paid $424 US for it. Of course she earns huge money and why would she want to come home to a low waged economy so I don’t blame her staying away. She gets to see us quite often and has a far nicer lifestyle where she is.

       Even in my twenties I was politically aware and wouldn’t have wanted to come back to this nasty place where dog eats dog and the vulnerable are not looked after. Where she lives now is probably pretty much the same but at least she is appreciated for her labour and is saving a great egg nest for their retirement which is what we, as all parents want our kids to do.
       • ropata 3.1.2.1

         10 January 2016 at 4:03 pm

         The Americans I’ve met (99% really nice people) are universally horrified at the costs of living here. Clothing, food, cars, petrol, and crummy housing, is all disgustingly overpriced. This is because the NZ market is TINY and big players can manipulate it and collude with ease.

         example: 13 real estate agencies accused of price fixing
     • Once was Tim 3.1.3

       10 January 2016 at 4:14 pm

       Please @ Ad. Shoot me NOW!
       I’ve just witnessed the discussion that follows (and in particular – the IGnorance of the Fizz.
       I’m not sure whether he/she (actually he) hasn’t the capability for critical thought, or whether I should just bow down to @Paul/Paulm’s dnftt comments.
       The latter would be so much easier.

       He’s got me wondering whether it was his essays I once had to mark and to have had to seek a second opinion.
       How the fuck did it come to this! There are words we once used as descriptors no longer seem to have any meaning – but I guess that’s what they intended.

       I hope Fizz has a really exquisite looking tick on the certificate of achievement he’s in possession of cos fuck all else is going to safe him when we eventually delve into it all.
     • ropata 3.1.4

       10 January 2016 at 4:31 pm

       Sure Ad, rogernomics saved us from some of the awful consequences of Muldoon but it also introduced the iniquitous GST, sold off basic infrastructure assets for a pittance, and made the crash of 87 a hell of a lot worse. The shocking inequality and poverty produced from its hellspawn offspring, ruthanasia, changed NZ from a once decent country to one where the poor are actively demonised.

       The 1984 reforms were necessary but not taken to the extreme that ACT party founder Roger Douglas went to. He destroyed David Lange and fucked up the Labour Party in the process. It was a shameful and despicable way to conduct government.

       John Roughan is a blind idiot, I hope you were just paying devil’s advocate with that comment (3.1).
       • greywarshark 3.1.4.1

         10 January 2016 at 10:13 pm

         The 1984 reforms were like giving thalidomide to a pregnant woman to help her with her horrible morning sickness.
     • Macro 3.1.5

       10 January 2016 at 7:58 pm

       You tell us what it would be like to have import quotas and for NZers to manufacture most of the goods they needed instead,
       Nope the goods may not be quite as fancy as that overseas – but 3% unemployment is better than 6.8% and rising.
       And there would be a decent median wage.
       House prices would be lower because we wouldn’t have sold all our major banks offshore.
       We would be manufacturing our own rolling stock for our expanding rail system and we would be Carbon Neutral and virtually 100% renewable.
       I could go on – but it would be just too depressing to think of all the opportunities we have lost because we cast it all aside and sold the silver for next to nothing.
       • ropata 3.1.5.1

         10 January 2016 at 8:00 pm

         +1 good points sir/ma’am
4. joe90 4

   10 January 2016 at 12:17 pm

   Charming.

   http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/austeast/movies/gmsirn/gmsirnjava.html

   http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/temp/tccapture.gif
   • greywarshark 4.1

     10 January 2016 at 12:53 pm

     Id be counting my beads or charms for sure. Nasty looking boil mid-Pacific. And we send a poor guy back because we don’t register when they put in application, only when it is complete in every detail. So the two days it took to get info complete meant he was over the bar because of those two days.

     What are we planning to do for the Pacific Islanders? We can accept wealthy people who prop up this shaky economy in the Shake Isles. But PI people who were helpful workers once to the economy, are not the preferred people any more. Now it is those from the Indian continent, Indians from Fiji, and Filipinos. All needing places and jobs, but they are not from islands just above water level, lashed with increasing cyclones from sea level and winds from above like a punishment from hell.
     • Poission 4.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 1:24 pm

       Hmm

       http://pamola.um.maine.edu/fcst_frames/GFS-025deg/DailySummary/GFS-025deg_NH-SAT5_PMSL.png
5. Karen 5

   10 January 2016 at 12:33 pm

   There is a documentary being shown on TVOne at 10:10pm tonight that will be of interest to anyone interested in NZ history and/or Māori issues. It would be easy to miss considering the time slot it has been given.

   “Hikoi – the Land March” commemorates the 1975 Land March led by Whina Cooper and features several of the people who participated.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/tv-guide/75716733/hikoi-the-land-march–new-footage-unveiled
   • maui 5.1

     11 January 2016 at 12:11 am

     Thanks, I saw the second half. The tv footage from 1975 was so clear it almost looked like it happened 5 years ago! I think I had forgotten a lot of what happened there, the bit at the end about Bastion Point and the 1000 police officers/army surrounding the occupiers was scary, almost fascist, rekindling an act from the New Zealand Wars almost. We do have some very poignant moments in our short history. The other takeaway for me was the stat that Māori only own was it 6% of NZ land currently, even after the large treaty settlements we’ve had in recent decades. In a lot of cases they’re just been offered the shit land back that pakeha never found a way to make a profit out of or exploit properly. Hope the doco makes it onto the OnDemand website.
     • Karen 5.1.1

       11 January 2016 at 9:15 am

       It is available On Demand so you will be able to see the first half!

       https://www.tvnz.co.nz/ondemand/hikoi-the-land-march/10-01-2016/series-2016-episode-special
6. greywarshark 6

   10 January 2016 at 2:52 pm

   Seen on a Facebook page. Does this define the zeitgeist of the young adult generation? If so, they will spend so long looking walking away from those with a wise message that they consider negative, that they cannot prepare themselves for the nasty future that awaits.

   Walk away from anything or anyone who takes away from your joy..
   Life is too short to put up with fools.
   • weka 6.1

     10 January 2016 at 4:27 pm

     It’s not just young people. It’s in the hippy and new ager circles as well as the wider American culture of personal growth. Some of it is constructive, but there are very clear libertarian and neoconservative ethics at play as well. I agree, it creates problems on a number of levels and can be quite nasty. Poor people for instance are just full of negativity otherwise they wouldn’t be poor.
     • greywarshark 6.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 6:50 pm

       weka
       The attitude is that poor people are too negative and cause their own poverty. I have come across that from a USAn, his refusal to consider tweaking policies in the community group we were operating was one factor in its demise.

       But the meme is so pervasive that poor people can believe it is their own fault, feel guilty at asking for things, or nsisting on things that are their right actually, still there in the law.

       The distressing thing is that this poisonous attitude that doesn’t want to front anything unpleasant or admit need for correction or improvement in society, means that everything that has a shitty smell stays that way. And if someone comes along all keen to make change and uses known community rousers and methods of self-firing in people which works, they are viewed as one-off outliers, and if they leave then the system and methods may just be allowed to fade away.

       Of course this is ‘aided’ by the practice of neo liberals to want to cut ties between government central or local with the community and force groups to go to private enterprise for fund raising after a few successful years. Government will then fund some new group in the same temporary fashion, with the same result. It doesn’t matter how good, how useful, how carefully controlled the budget is, the neo liberal dead hand of government shows up soon and starves the organisation, or insists on user-pay which may dry up its good purpose.
     • The Fairy Godmother 6.1.2

       10 January 2016 at 8:34 pm

       Here is some good reading on this issue. An explanation of how positive thinking took hold in America. Causes all sorts of problems. People with cancer think they got it because they weren’t positive enough etc. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/10/smile-or-die-barbara-ehrenreich
   • BM 6.2

     10 January 2016 at 5:46 pm

     Main reason why the left ain’t getting traction.

     No one likes a downer, no one wants to listen to some person bleat on about how bad every thing supposedly is.
     • weka 6.2.1

       10 January 2016 at 7:49 pm

       I suppose the irony of your comment is unintentional.
     • ropata 6.2.2

       11 January 2016 at 10:36 am

       Too much positive thinking = reality denial. It causes ponzi schemes and the GFC
7. joe90 7

   10 January 2016 at 3:39 pm

   Must be time the terrorists that aren’t rang their mums and arranged a ride home.

   
   JJ MacNab
   ‏@jjmacnab

   The OR militants have updated their wish list.

   https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/685960657225793536
8. joe90 8

   10 January 2016 at 4:27 pm

   Twenty years too late.

   For more than a decade, the Environmental Protection Agency has been under pressure from environmentalists and beekeepers to reconsider its approval of a class of insecticides called neonicotinoids, based on a mounting body of research suggesting they harm bees and other pollinators at tiny doses. In a report released Wednesday, the EPA basically conceded the case.

   http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2016/01/epa-finds-major-pesticide-toxic-bees
   • Molly 8.1

     10 January 2016 at 8:51 pm

     I watched “The Vanishing of the Bees” a few years back, and saw how the beekeepers themselves were looking into the reasons for the CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder) that was destroying their hives and livelihoods.

     The EPA’s role in approving the neonicotinoids is worthwhile to watch for itself. A 3 day trial, which does not follow the bees long term. While the film does not unequivocally state a reason, – it seems more than likely that when the bees feed on the honey during winter, the toxicity is concentrated in this winter fuel, and the effect is marked and leads to colony collapse.

     Worth the time if you are interested in this subject:
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-JjQH_HUHQ
     • ropata 8.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 9:05 pm

       NZ and South Africa are exporting bees like there’s no tomorrow
9. cogito 9

   10 January 2016 at 5:24 pm

   I smelt a rat the moment Paula Bennett appeared on tv with optrex running down her face. Then all became clear with the rich-list connection.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/75751778/rich-lister-culum-manson-is-father-of-killed-jogger-jo-perts-children
   • One Two 9.1

     10 January 2016 at 6:04 pm

     Perhaps the focus should be on the dead lady, and those who have lost a mum, daughter etc

     Public high profile death is a repeat in the Manson Company
     • Gabby 9.1.1

       10 January 2016 at 6:52 pm

       Bound to be a coincidence.
   • Anne 9.2

     10 January 2016 at 6:04 pm

     Yes, me too.
     Imagine if the victim had been say… Samoan and came from South Auckland… was the same age and a solo mum with two children. Do you think she would have got the same wall to wall coverage in the media? We all know the answer is NO. And of course P.B. wouldn’t have been seen spilling optrex down her face.
   • maui 9.3

     10 January 2016 at 6:23 pm

     It would be ironic if funding cuts/shortcuts by Government end up being somewhat responsible for this tragic event.
   • Muttonbird 9.4

     10 January 2016 at 7:45 pm

     The rich-lister ditched her when she was pregnant with the second child…

     …nice bloke.
10. greywarshark 10

    10 January 2016 at 7:10 pm

    How Corrupt is Britain – book recently published.
    Tesco has three investigations for naughtiness! And on and on with cases….
    (https://plutopress.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/how-corrupt-is-britain-david-whyte-talks-about-his-new-book/

    One hour talk David Whyte and Luke Hildyard
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSJey0VylMI
    Google notes –
    Feb 17, 2015 – David Whyte is Reader in Sociology at the University of Liverpool. He is an internationally established author on the subjects of state power and …

    Luke Hildyard, deputy director of the High Pay Centre, a think-tank established to monitor pay, says the group has long since argued that “executive pay incentive payments have become totally dysfunctional and bear little relationship to company performance”.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/39959ed2-05e7-11e5-b676-00144feabdc0.html
11. Wisdumb 11

    10 January 2016 at 7:15 pm

    I would like to pass on my great appreciation to MickySavage, Lprent, te reo putake, and any other TS people I have probably forgotten, who maintained the daily service over the Christmas New Year period. It must have kept you very busy when everyone else was taking it easy. For my part It meant that there was something meaty in politics or current affairs to read every day. Thank you all greatly.
    • mickysavage 11.1

      10 January 2016 at 7:50 pm

      Cheers WD. Christmas is always a stretch but there was a lot of interesting things happening …
    • gsays 11.2

      10 January 2016 at 11:18 pm

      hi wisdumb,
      well said.
      i, too, greatly appreciate the efforts made for me to participate in this community.

      keep up the good work.
      please.
12. fisiani 12

    10 January 2016 at 8:09 pm

    How low can the Left go. Bring back Shearer.
    • maui 12.1

      10 January 2016 at 8:30 pm

      Another fish bait comment..
      • Paul 12.1.1

        10 January 2016 at 8:43 pm

        dnftt
      • ropata 12.1.2

        10 January 2016 at 9:10 pm

        I thought the t.roll count was getting a bit low. Fishy must be on a zero hour contract?
        • Grant 12.1.2.1

          10 January 2016 at 10:01 pm

          Gollum …
          • John Shearsat 12.1.2.1.1

            10 January 2016 at 10:45 pm

            at 12
            Way to go Standardistas stupid comment for fizzy and just 4 comments and we are onto 13 Big Claps.
    • swordfish 12.2

      10 January 2016 at 11:37 pm

      @ fisi “How low can the Left go”

      ………………………………Left………….Oppo

      2014 Election………….35.8…………..44.5
      (Party-Vote)

      Poll Average……………42.4…………..49.2
      (since Sep 2015)

      Diff…………………………+ 6.6………….+ 4.7

      You were saying, fisi ???
    • Ffloyd 12.3

      10 January 2016 at 11:43 pm

      @12 Fisiani farts again.
13. ropata 13

    10 January 2016 at 10:04 pm

    interesting programme on Radio NZ, filed here for future reference:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/summernoelle/audio/201784993/professor-jeremy-waldron

    Professor Jeremy Waldron is an esteemed law professor at New York University and Oxford.

    He’s been described as the leading political and legal philosopher of our day. In the legal world, he is our most famous New Zealander. Professor Waldron is an outspoken critic of drone warfare, torture and hate speech, writing books that make the case for their corrosive effects in a democracy. He’s in demand for lectures all over the world.

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