Open mike 11/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 11th, 2020 - 179 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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179 comments on “Open mike 11/07/2020 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1
    11 July 2020 at 6:17 am

    Dear Standard readers,

    I have created a fun Give a Little page:

    “Buy Michael Woodhouse a moral compass.”
    https://givealittle.co.nz/fundraiser/buy-michael-woodhouse-a-moral-compass

    The page may not last long (too overtly political?).

    All donations go to the Christchurch City Mission, a charity I have no connection with.

    And I have used the words of UncookedSelachimorpha without permission I’m afraid (I hope you don’t mind) because you expressed the indignation I felt far better than I could.

    "For Michael Woodhouse, as health spokesman, former CEO of a hospital and person with a Masters of Health Administration, to merely delete emails that wilfully breach patient privacy is disgracefully inadequate.

    "He knew the leak he received was outrageously unethical and went against all standards of medical practice. It was incumbent on him to take decisive action to expose and shut down this appalling behaviour. Reporting the breach to the proper authorities (e.g. MOH, privacy commissioner) would be the minimum decent action he could take."

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    11 July 2020 at 7:39 am

    Gordon Campbell hones in on a key point of the saga:

    And what are we to make of National’s Health spokesperson Michael Woodhouse, whose credibility is fast receding to vanishing point, what with that invisible homeless person he alleged had snuck into quarantine last week. Woodhouse is obviously a big Bob Dylan fan (‘How does it feel to be without a home/like a complete unknown ?’) Subsequently, Woodhouse could offer no evidence that the mystery tramp even existed. Now comes this latest epic fail. As we stare into the vacuum of his eyes, his words make ironic reading:

    National health spokesman Michael Woodhouse said the leak represented “another serious failing” of the Government.“Reports coming in this morning of personal details being leaked which reveals the identity of New Zealand’s current active cases, is yet another serious failing from this incompetent Government. This is unconscionable and unacceptable that those suffering from the incredibly dangerous virus now have to suffer further with their private details being leaked. The Government needs to get to the bottom of this, and quickly. The Ministry of Health has been assuring people since the beginning of the epidemic in New Zealand that personal details would remain private, it’s unfathomable that it couldn’t handle a simple task like this.”

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2020/07/gordon-campbell-on-why-todd-muller-needs-to-own-the-privacy-leak-scandal/

    Editorial note: `stare into the vacuum of his eyes' ought to be in single quotes, Gordon, to remind readers that it's a line from the Dylan song that hit top of the charts in '65.

    Perhaps a journo will do the sleuthing to establish the extent of woodlouse guilt? Did he admit that he saw the email Boag sent him before he accused the govt of the privacy breach? If he did know it was a Nat conspiracy before mouthing off, Muller ought to punish him. While staring into the vacuum of his eyes, preferably…

    • Just Is 2.1
      11 July 2020 at 9:06 am

      Denis, the 4th estate is equally to blame for this fiasco, they parroted the mumblings of a recidivist liar, knowingly.

      We need honest Journalism at a time like this, peoples lives are at risk

      WAKE UP MEDIA, get your heads out of the sand.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 9:28 am

        Yes, the drift towards shallow journalism has been evident for some years now. I saw it happening in the TVNZ newsroom while I was working there in the '90s but those doing investigative journalism provided suitable balance then. I blame social media for the subsequent worsening of the effect.

        Commentators lack the inside view: deadline pressure motivates quick production of stories. So there's a real economic cost to doing research. A journalist will only invest the time to get to the crux of a skullduggery situation if their conscience prevails over expediency. Journalism in the public interest remains de-institutionalised!

    • Grumpy 2.2
      11 July 2020 at 9:27 am

      .”…….and say, do you want to…….make a deal?”

      [Fixed error in e-mail address]

    • Gabby 2.3
      11 July 2020 at 9:54 am

      Homes in, in praxis. Go hone your wit.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    11 July 2020 at 7:57 am

    BFD has something worth reading for a change: https://thebfd.co.nz/2020/07/10/a-free-taste-of-an-insight-politics-article-8/

    The Anglosphere is a term first used by science fiction author Neal Stephenson but taken up by historians and others as a useful signpost for those nations formerly part of the British Empire. It includes Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand and in some formulations, South Africa, and Ireland. Countries bound by culture, political traditions and a mutually intelligible language (hence the debate over South Africa and Ireland). In his book ‘How We Invented Freedom and Why It Matters’, ace Brexiteer and former Euro MP, Dan Hannan makes the argument that political freedom – the state deriving its power from the consent of free individuals, rather than individuals being granted freedom by an almighty state – is a uniquely British rather than ‘Western’ phenomenon.

    This freedom was wrought by history and circumstances peculiar to the British Isles: the Anglo-Saxon Witan system, the common law, the Protestant break with Rome, the absence of a large, potentially tyrannical standing army and the individualist property rights that provided the basis for capitalism. Hannan argued that in the face of encroachments on political liberty (he was thinking foremost of the EU) the ideal of ‘the Anglosphere’ should be reignited.

    Hong Kong is another opportunity. It prospered as a loyal British colony for over 150 years with its people never demanding self-government. Then for the sake of diplomatic expediency, its people were handed to the CCP without the democratic consultation usually required elsewhere (see the Falklands). Britain has a moral duty to its former subjects. Hong Kong, spat out by the Lion, shouldn’t be left to be swallowed up by the Dragon.

    Inasmuch as we all remain embedded in cultural ambience produced by the residue of the British empire, it's a good idea to reflect on how distinctive its imperialism actually is – and likely due to having no emperor!

    The writer seems unaware of the constraint imposed by international law: 19th centuries treaties dictated the outcome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    11 July 2020 at 8:14 am

    Two prominent women in spat over free speech: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122101004/christchurch-mayor-lianne-dalziel-rejects-china-corruption-claim

    In a 2015 email addressed to the Mayor, Brady said she had been told at a meeting she “was being banned from participating in any official events related to China and or Antarctica…”. She claimed pressure had been placed on an individual (whose name is redacted) to have her banned, and asked if this pressure was “made under Mayor Dalziel’s knowledge, if she too is bending to Chinese pressure…

    “Banning was a common practice of the South African regime and is a classic means to isolate, discredit, and silence someone whose views might be an inconvenient truth,” Brady wrote.

    The mayor seems reluctant to embrace the notion that she may be a stooge of the communist regime in China. Quite why the prof got banned isn't clear though.

    A council staff member responded saying “we are not aware of any ‘ban’ or ‘blacklisting’”, and rejected the suggestion there had been any such “policy or pressure” to do so.

    So it seems to be a Schrodinger's ban: real if one official says it is, unreal if another says it isn't. Social reality gets created according to who you believe…

  5. Gareth 5
    11 July 2020 at 9:05 am

    Here's an article about the media's quality of reporting during COVID:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/zealand-media-endangered-public-health-200707103532946.html

    We really need better, otherwise conspiracy theories fill in the gaps. My neighbour was telling me yesterday that he's "heard" that everyone's covering up that the guy who did a runner from quarantine the other day went to a brothel instead of the official story. First time I've ever heard a conspiracy theory of any kind from him.

    • Ed 5.1
      11 July 2020 at 9:30 am

      Thank you Gareth. I agree with your summation.

      Mosa publicised this article a couple of days and it has been discussed a bit on the Standard.

      It would be good if there was a post based on this article.

      Caitlin Johnson, one of my favourite writers, writes regularly on the issue of the daily narrative we are fed. An Aussie, her main focus is the U.S. ; however, her take is accurate for all the 5 eye nations.

      Her most recent report is entitled 'As Long As Mass Media Propaganda Exists, Democracy Is A Sham. ' I recommend it.

      The article looks at a recent poll that shows most Americans believe Russia targeted U.S. soldiers, despite this being a "completely discredited narrative ."

      It looks at the power of the media to sway people's thinking.

      Why? I'll leave that to Caitlin…..

      "But people are not as objective and adept at critical thinking as we tend to believe we are. People have many cognitive biases which distort our ability to objectively process information and understand events, including one which causes us to believe something is true just because they’ve heard it said multiple times. This makes us easily susceptible to mass media propaganda, where our encounters with daily news headlines can shape our perception of what’s going on in the world regardless of whether or not those headlines are backed by actual facts."

      We need a better media.

      https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/07/09/as-long-as-mass-media-propaganda-exists-democracy-is-a-sham/

      https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/03/26/the-illusory-truth-effect-how-millions-were-duped-by-russiagate/

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 5:12 pm

        But people are not as objective and adept at critical thinking as we tend to believe we are. People have many cognitive biases which distort our ability to objectively process information and understand events, including one which causes us to believe something is true just because they’ve heard it said multiple times. This makes us easily susceptible to mass media propaganda, where our encounters with daily news headlines can shape our perception of what’s going on in the world regardless of whether or not those headlines are backed by actual facts.

        As I've said many times, the spreading of misinformation needs to be made illegal with serious consequences for those doing so. The concept of free-speech does not give anyone, especially media services, a right to lie.

  6. Morrissey 6
    11 July 2020 at 9:08 am

    Kim Hill's "brave" (that's how he describes himself) guest this morning came up with a completely ridiculous solution to the problems facing the world

    RNZ National, Saturday 11 July 2020, 8:10 a.m.

    First up on Dame Kim's programme this morning: yet another from that endless conveyor belt of glib and talkative "woke" commentators that she and her producers go to almost without thinking. This fellow likes to hang out with billionaires and deliver mild critiques of them to their face in places like Aspen, Colorado. Early on in this interview he called himself "brave" for this daring behaviour…

    Described by a Guardian reviewer as "superb hate-reading", writer and columnist Anand Giridharadas's latest book Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World investigates the hypocrisy of billionaire "do-gooders".

    He questions how and why we have become reliant on the philanthropy of the super-rich to help solve our biggest global issues, and their role in eroding the public institutions that should be leading the way.

    Giridharadas is an editor-at-large for TIME and was a foreign correspondent and columnist for The New York Times from 2005 to 2016. His two previous books are India Calling: An Intimate Portrait of a Nation's Remaking and The True American: Murder and Mercy in Texas.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday

    As I suspected, Giridharadas could not help himself; a few minutes after praising himself for daring to speak to Bill Gates and Peter Thiel—"brave", he calls himself—he then went on to claim that there was one person who could save the world from this. That saviour is…. wait for it!.… Barack Obama. sad no angry

    I dropped the following hasty email to Lady Kim…

    Anand Giridharadas' bizarre praise of Obama

    Dear Kim,

    Anand Giridharadas was doing well until he suddenly started to spruik Barack Obama. If ever there was a tool of corrupt billionaires, it was that machine politician.

    Yours in disgust at glib and thoughtless New York Times hacks,

    Morrissey Breen

    Northcote Point

    • Tiger Mountain 6.1
      11 July 2020 at 9:24 am

      Anand had a pretty good analysis of neo liberalism and its origins I thought regardless of his pedigree and acquaintances.

      Morrissey, is there anyone in this whole damn world that has got it right in your esteemed opinion–or is everyone a sell out dog, and working class heros exist no more?

      • Ed 6.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 9:33 am

        To call Obama a working class hero is quite a stretch.

        He was there for the billionaires.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.2
        11 July 2020 at 9:36 am

        I googled working class heroes and got this: http://www.workingclassheroes.co.uk selling "mens streetwear from Patagonia". Nice to know they have embraced capitalism while doing `hands across the water' with the folks in Patagonia eh? 🤣

        Bet it got Marx spinning in his grave. No more revolution. Evolution instead.

        • Ed 6.1.2.1
          11 July 2020 at 9:39 am

          Capitalism is destroying the planet.

          So not evolution, but regression.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.1.1
            11 July 2020 at 5:17 pm

            I've been wondering if capitalism is the last stage of development for a civilisation. After all, once capitalism arises in a civilisation its always been destroyed allowing for a new civilisation to arise to replace it and thus giving us civilisational evolution.

        • Morrissey 6.1.2.2
          11 July 2020 at 9:55 am

          People who take Girardharadas seriously would worry about such symbolism, Dennis. Symbolism and right-on messaging is the only thing that matters for them.

      • Morrissey 6.1.3
        11 July 2020 at 9:50 am

        I respect and admire many ethical, rigorous and brave academics and journalists—really brave, that is, not someone who delivers mild critiques to billionaires in luxury resorts.

        I do not rate someone who hobnobs with Bill Gates and delivers glib homilies on the hipster channel Vice, and advocates for, of all people, Barack Obama.

    • Ed 6.2
      11 July 2020 at 9:45 am

      Morrissey.

      I'm 10 minutes in and Anand Giridharadas is making a lot of sense, especially regarding the Tech billionaires, like Thiel, Gates and Bezos.

      • Morrissey 6.2.1
        11 July 2020 at 9:53 am

        I agree, Ed. He says many things that are perfectly correct. But anyone who posits Barack Obama as any sort of a solution cannot be taken seriously, other than by the same folks who wept in despair after Saint Hillary was beaten in 2016.

        • Ed 6.2.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 10:41 am

          Totally agree.

          How is that manuscript coming along of the Woodhouse interview?

          • greywarshark 6.2.1.1.1
            11 July 2020 at 2:31 pm

            Morrissey you find fault with the guy for referring to Obama in a positive way. So he is to be hit over the head with that. Yet you write here with so many flaws in your thinking and still demand your right to be taken seriously: I would rate you only 65/35 right, which isn't all that high. Try being more objective and not so excitable about others why don't you.

          • Morrissey 6.2.1.1.2
            12 July 2020 at 7:27 pm

            I made the decision that that sleazeball does not deserve an hour of my time transcribing his crap; so I'm using only a little bit of that demolition job by Katherine Ryan, as part of a dramatization I'm doing of a recent emergency meeting of Muller's caucus.

    • Gabby 6.3
      11 July 2020 at 10:00 am

      No he didn't. You need to clean your ears again.

      • Morrissey 6.3.1
        11 July 2020 at 10:06 am

        Actually, he said we need "someone like Obama."

        Utterly inane, utterly Hillary for President.

        • AB 6.3.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 10:53 am

          Giridharadas said that the progressive ideas of Sanders and Warren were popular – but that there were barriers to them actually winning electorally. And to overcome those barriers would need someone with the charisma, rhetorical fluency, charm, likability (call it what you will) of Obama.

          That doesn't seem like an unreasonable comment – whatever you think of what Obama actually did – his skills as a politician are undeniable. We have seen this close-up with Ardern, how relatability, charm, being in tune with the mood and language of the times is so important. I took it as more of a comment about Bernie's limitations as an electoral politician, rather than errors in his policy.

          Admittedly – Giridharadas,s solution does seem rather week in comparison to the strength of his diagnosis.

          • RedLogix 6.3.1.1.1
            11 July 2020 at 11:34 am

            The coalition of left/progressive voters (especially in the USA) have many conflicting values and agendas, and normally only win when the Democrats can put up a candidate who has the charisma and political fluency to get them all to turn out and vote.

            (Biden is the exception only because Trump is so intensely polarising.)

          • francesca 6.3.1.1.2
            11 July 2020 at 11:52 am

            That's a fair point

          • The Chairman 6.3.1.1.3
            12 July 2020 at 11:02 am

            Indeed, AB.

            And it was a great interview by the way. It's something we should be focused on.

        • Gabby 6.3.1.2
          11 July 2020 at 11:04 am

          Egg Zachary, LIKE Obama. The persuader, not the warmonger.

          • Incognito 6.3.1.2.1
            11 July 2020 at 11:23 am

            Please don’t spoil Morrissey’s carefully crafted narrative; it took him ages to draft that carefully worded e-mail to Kim Hill. We need more brave public intellectuals like Morrissey.

  7. OnceWasTim 7
    11 July 2020 at 9:10 am

    It's going to be interesting to see the reponses in here to Kim Hill's interview with Anand Giridharadas (link not up yet @ Sacha – except maybe https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday for today 11/07/2020 )
    Pass the popcorn
    Edit: Fark me! How did I guess @ Mozza

  8. francesca 8
    11 July 2020 at 9:42 am

    But you have to admit, he has a point.

    I mean Obama had his chance …for the first 2 years Democrats had a majority in both houses , and yet still Guantanamo , despite all his noble promises remains open for business

    No one was prosecuted for the disaster of the GFC, and the torturers “we tortured some folks”got off scot free.

  9. Sabine 9
    11 July 2020 at 12:23 pm

    got a call to day asking if we could deliver to the local isolation hotel. Why yes, we can.

    And so we did. Gave the package to the guard by the fence and they took it to the customer.

    So really there is no reason anyone needs to sneak out for a V and a Pie, or a bootle of whine or anything. Call and have it delivered.

    • xanthe 9.1
      11 July 2020 at 12:29 pm

      but not alcohol. (thanks @lprent for giving us the in comment ctrl/right click's)

      • anker 9.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 12:45 pm

        This issue of alcohol came up yesterday on DR I think. My understanding is they can buy wine from the hotel, but not order it in. Prices are likely to be higher than a liquor outline. And the hotel can control how much is supplied, which would be essential…..imagine unlimited alcohol in quarantine……what could possibly go. wrong

        I see some friend/family member said she tried to persuade our Queenstown business owner not to abscond. I hope she informed the police of his intention to commit a crime. If not suggest a visit from the police and charges.

        BTW. Shout out to Gabby and Observer for having me LMAO last night. Observer quoted from the media that the Queenstown man had been difficult to manage in social isolation and had very strong political views (?" Cindy's locking me up????")

        Gabbys response…."look like the Nats have found their next candidate forSouthland/Clutha " Ha ha ha bloody funny.

        I also saw a headline from a contact of the new candidate saying he's a really nice guy. Yeah right….

    • Just Is 9.2
      11 July 2020 at 12:30 pm

      Is a bootle of whine like are a very large container of whinge..

    • weka 9.3
      11 July 2020 at 12:39 pm

      discussion on twitter suggests that people can't get alcohol delivered (but can buy in hotel alcohol, within a certain limit eg 6 cans beer/day).

      • Chris T 9.3.1
        11 July 2020 at 12:51 pm

        TBF given it is 4 and 5 star hotels that would probably cost a fortune.

        Not that I condone rocking on down to the local bottle store.

        Maybe the govt should assign someone to just get a shopping list and delivery person for each day, can't see it being much more cost.

        Maybe work with Uber?

        • Sabine 9.3.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 1:07 pm

          most businesses already offer delivery – have been doing so since level 4 and three.

          so no point using an underpaid uber driver – the only ones making money is the app/shareholder.

          But the government could legislate just how much these hotels can charge to people in isolation for say beer and wine. Usually mini bar prices are way up because many people actually don't use them. They leave their hotels for drinks. And again in saying that, non of these fuckwits actually have a cost to pay for food n bed, so fuck it they should be able to either hold their need or suck it up and pay the price.

        • weka 9.3.1.2
          11 July 2020 at 2:24 pm

          Have yet to see a good write up of what is available and seeing a range of opinions on it, I suspect it probably varies a bit from place to place. But the restriction on alcohol might be causing some problems, also for people that smoke. Stressful situation alongside not being able to self-medicate enough is not a good mix.

          • Chris T 9.3.1.2.1
            11 July 2020 at 2:44 pm

            True.

            TBH, given the situation I would tend to just say you can smoke in your room, if it temporarily saves grief

            • Muttonbird 9.3.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2020 at 3:57 pm

              Increased risk of fire, and cigarette smoke ruining the room? Don't think so.

        • greywarshark 9.3.1.3
          11 July 2020 at 2:35 pm

          Oh how kind we are to alcohol addicts. Now when we get the marijuana okay law passed it will stop some of the silly unbalanced BS in NZ.

          • Incognito 9.3.1.3.1
            11 July 2020 at 4:54 pm

            Of course not! The binary brigade will still stick to its simplistic morals of right or wrong, for or against. Anything in between has too much nuance and is too complex to consider for more than a fleeting moment – hang on, there’s another message/tweet/reckon I need to give my undivided attention as if my life depends on it. There is no position in the middle, there is no room for negotiation and debate (!), and there is definitely no possibility for consensus or agreeing to disagree.

            People are not really left- or right-handed, as they would use both hands for most stuff. Similarly, people are not as politically pure and on either side of the political left-right spectrum as they believe they are. It is heuristic approach by the mind to make things simpler than they are and save time (another illusion) and energy.

            Don’t blame the media, blame your lazy mind and start thinking.

            • ianmac 9.3.1.3.1.1
              11 July 2020 at 5:04 pm

              One of the disadvantages of a referendum is the Yes/No nature of it. A bit like are you really pregnant or just a little bit pregnant?

              • Incognito …
                11 July 2020 at 8:45 pm

                Referendums don’t come out of the blue and don’t sit in some kind of vacuum. There is much debate before, which leads to a decision to hold a referendum, and then after, to implement any changes. I wasn’t referring to any specific action but to thinking, binary thinking.

                Out of interest, when do you become pregnant?

                • ianmac …
                  11 July 2020 at 11:13 pm

                  When do I become pregnant? Er no time I hope. As an 80 year old male it might be a bit late anyway.

            • I Feel Love 9.3.1.3.1.2
              11 July 2020 at 7:22 pm

              This binary thinking also sits alongside that "cancel culture" letter that famous people signed, then some people took their names off when they realised who elses name was on the letter. It's about agreeing with the goal, but for different reasons. Like marching for free speech, but when you look around and see you're in a group of neo nazis you decide to quietly leave, even though you have the same goal (free speech), but for totally different reasons.

      • Sabine 9.3.2
        11 July 2020 at 1:04 pm

        still, one ran for a pie and a v. non of that is needed.

        Anywho, the lady in question got her teas, her chocolates, her pastry, her coffee and she will be good there for two weeks before going home.

        the point is, that no one needs to be a shitheel.

        • weka 9.3.2.1
          11 July 2020 at 2:18 pm

          I agree. I suspect some of this is political (court report from one case suggested this). But some might also be stress. People do weird shit when in unusual and stressful situations.

  10. Just Is 10
    11 July 2020 at 12:26 pm

    A story in the Herald this morning stating unemployment was reaching " the same levels as it did during the GFC".

    The recession that NZ suffered from was in 2011, nearly three years after the GFC, it was the only country in the world to claim this 3 years on, most countries were in recovery stage.

    The recession in 2011, was at the time described by most economists as the direct as a soft recession, the result of the Drought that affected Northland and the East Coast, the other contributing factors was the CHCH earthquakes and the combination of the National Party Tax cuts and the increase in GST which did more harm to the economy than the GFC three years earlier.

    NZ was fortunate in 2008, to have ridden the GFC on the back of Australia's economic plan, they injected over a billion dollars directly into their economy by sending a $1000 check to every house hold to maintain spending in the local Economy

    At that time, Australia was NZs biggest export market and maintained their demand for NZ products.

    I get really tired of the media and National saying the recession was due to the GFC, it wasn't, it was created by a Failure of the Govt of the day to recognize it wasn't the time to push through there famous tax cuts and the increase in GST that saw many on low incomes with lower spending power.

    Ideological stupidity was at the forefront, but they didn't care, it was a really good excuse to run Austerity and a low wage economy, which, by any measurement, was a Complete and Total failure for most Kiwis.

    NZ had the lowest average income in the OECD measured against similarly developed countries, any economist worth anything will tell you those two things lead to a shinking economy, so National imported nearly 800,000 migrants, bringing their money with them to prop up the failing economy.

    And we all know how that ended up.

  11. weka 11
    11 July 2020 at 12:41 pm

    Asking this again, anyone know what this piece of legislation is for? Apparently it's in older acts too. Am curious what the intent is, and how often it gets used (and why).

    https://twitter.com/JennyKayNZ/status/1281463549114462208

    • Craig H 11.1
      11 July 2020 at 9:11 pm

      After some more research, this is raised in the State Services Commission departmental report on the Bill (https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/submissions-and-advice/document/52SCGA_ADV_93134_GA4111/state-services-commission-departmental-report) – because the Select Committee failed to produce a report, the SSC report is the best option remaining. To quote from the report (pp135-137):

      Schedule 8, Clause 6: Medical examinations

      Schedule 8 clause 6 provides that a “chief executive of a department or the board of an interdepartmental venture may request an applicant for appointment or an employee to undergo a medical examination”. The department or venture may nominate a “medical practitioner” and must pay.

      The Chief Ombudsman notes that the discretion provided to chief executives already exists in section 82 of the State Sector Act, but suggests that the Committee consider amendments to provide guidance as to the purpose of the discretion and the circumstances in which it could be exercised.

      Submissions by the PSA national delegates within the Department of Conservation (DOC) and Inland Revenue Department (IR) express shared concerns. Both submit it should be clear that the requirement should be relevant to the work of the role, for example by adding to subclause (1) “… to ascertain any medical conditions that could affect fulfilment of the role”. They comment that “request” implies that an applicant could refuse a request and, if that is not the case, it should change to “require”. The DOC delegates comment that they support drug testing of workers for health and safety reasons. The IR delegates comment there is no mention of how mental health would be viewed/managed and how the principles of Nga Kaupapa are incorporated into this and the required medical examinations.

      The New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties considers the power provided to chief executives is broad and untrammelled. It recommends that the Bill incorporate the safeguards found in the United Kingdom Access to Medical Reports Act 1988 (these include, for example, requiring the person seeking the medical report to obtain the person’s consent, and to provide them with information about their rights to see and amend the report before it is provided to the employer). The Council also recommends that the Bill require chief executives to keep data on the frequency and circumstances with which they use the power to ask people to undergo a medical examination, and to report this data to the Commissioner annually.

      Commentary: As the Chief Ombudsman notes, the provision in the Bill already exists. It has existed in some form since 1912.

      Public Service Act 1912: the Commissioner shall make regulations prescribing (among other things) “a medical examination as to the health of candidates”. Candidates were held to comply.

      State Services Act 1962: the Commission or permanent head may require any applicant or employee to submit to a medical examination at ‘his’ own expense.

      State Sector Act 1988: a chief executive may require any applicant or employee to undergo a medical examination at the expense of the department.

      Public Service Legislation Bill: provides for a chief executive or interdepartmental venture to request and must pay.

      The Bill changes an ability to “require” to an ability to “request”. This change is deliberate in the contemporary context of human rights and privacy considerations. A request cannot be enforced. If not followed, it could become the subject of an employment-related conversation between the employer and employee.

      The Bill does not detail particular types of medical examinations. It would not be suitable to attempt to include either a positive or negative list. However, the term “medical practitioner” is defined in clause 5 as “a health practitioner who is, or is deemed to be, registered with the Medical Council of New Zealand continued by section 114(1)(a) of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003 as a practitioner of the profession of medicine”.

      In practice, the provision is not used extensively. However, there can be circumstances where it is appropriate, notably when a medical examination would be relevant:

      for the purpose of determining the person’s ability to perform their job, or to fulfil their requirements of being a good employer, including good and safe working conditions.

      The New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties makes a number of helpful suggestions with regard to international examples. In New Zealand, however, the Privacy Act 1993 would apply to the information and provide for matters such as protecting the individual’s rights to access to it, correction, and storage. Advisers agree that the information resulting from the medical examination may only be provided to a chief executive or board or an interdepartmental venture with the consent of the applicant or employee. Advisers also agree that the only information that should be provided to the chief executive or board is information that is relevant to the purpose of the medical exam.

      Recommendation 35: We recommend that an addition to this clause be inserted to the effect that:

      • a chief executive or board of an interdepartmental venture may request a medical examination for the purpose of determining the person’s ability to perform their job or to fulfil their requirements of being a good employer, including good and safe working conditions
      • the request must be in writing and state the purpose
      • the information resulting from the medical examination may only be provided to a chief executive or board or an interdepartmental venture with the consent of the applicant or employee
      • only information relevant to the purpose of the medical exam is to be provided

      Now that the language is “request” not “require”, the civil liberty issue isn’t really there in the same manner. Note that employers can require medical examinations for H&S reasons now e.g. to determine if an employee is fit to return to work.

  12. weka 12
    11 July 2020 at 12:46 pm

    Commenters who fill in the Name and Email fields frequently, has something changed in the past few months? We're getting a lot of typos, which means the system treats you as a new commenter and the comment gets held in Pending to be released by a moderator. Would love some feedback and what kind of device you are using.

    • I Feel Love 12.1
      11 July 2020 at 1:46 pm

      I sometimes type too fast and notice I've been typing in the email field, so more bozo user fault than system. I back up but sometimes leave the odd extra letter.

      • weka 12.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 2:21 pm

        it seems odd that there is a sustained spate in the past few months. Might still be user error, but I am curious if the interface or something has changed.

        • Muttonbird 12.1.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 4:03 pm

          I did comment some months ago that my text field kicks me off sometimes while I'm typing, and the cursor resets to the Name field. Most of the time I pick it up but sometimes I hit submit with the last bit of a sentence in the Name field instead of where it should be. Desktop version on laptop.

          Also can't use the desktop version on mobile because the text field doesn't have a cursor or accept text.

          • weka 12.1.1.1.1
            11 July 2020 at 6:34 pm

            ta, that's the kind of thing I was thinking about. There's been a few where sentences have turned up in the name field. Or email addresses. I'll mention it to Lynn (he's aware of the mobile issue, I find it is intermittent on my iphone). What's your OS and browser?

          • lprent 12.1.1.1.2
            20 July 2020 at 6:03 pm

            Ummm. That sounds like a lagging javascript.

            I'll have a look at it when I get some working glasses back again.

            But it will be a browser problem. I really need to finish the code (and cookie) that flips the java editor off on a particular browser / machine.

    • Ed 12.2
      11 July 2020 at 2:42 pm

      I accidentally typed in the name field and did not notice.

    • observer 14.1
      11 July 2020 at 1:16 pm

      I hope people start to read and get informed before adding the knee-jerk comments on these "escape" stories.

      Yesterday there was a flurry of Confident Reckons, many of which were made to look silly soon after, once we had some facts. Sharing instant ignorance adds nothing.

      • weka 14.1.1
        11 July 2020 at 2:19 pm

        I'm looking forward to eventually finding out why people are doing this. Don't have a good sense of this yet.

        • Just Is 14.1.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 9:35 pm

          It appears that each of runners had different reasons, one only wanted some shopping, the older person is suggested as having health issues, the other man had been abusive and a "strong political viewpoint", I'm not sure about the first woman.

          Amy Adams suggested that the reason was because the motel/hotel accommodation was below scratch.

      • Anne 14.1.2
        11 July 2020 at 3:25 pm

        Actually, I think the MSM are partly responsible. They’ve been making a big thing out of these break-outs and, I suspect, generating both copy-cat scenarios and over-reactions among some in the community.

        They should leave the police and related services to deal with them and stop high-lighting the escapees unless there is good cause to notify the populace at large – something the police would do anyway.

    • AB 14.2
      11 July 2020 at 1:48 pm

      Because these people weren't in the country as we went through L4 and L3, it looks like they may have missed out on some shift in consciousness that the rest of us have been through. The idea of sacrificing immediate self-interest for the collective good, was strong through L4 and L3. Strong enough for the phrase 'team of 5 million' not to feel completely cringey and embarrassing, which under normal circumstances it would. Alternatively – it might be that at all times, and under all circumstances, there is simply an irreducible minority of dipsh*ts.

      • weka 14.2.1
        11 July 2020 at 2:20 pm

        that's a really good point about not having gone through L4 here.

        • greywarshark 14.2.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 2:41 pm

          After what I have heard about the prevalence of meth and P in the country, and the fact that we have such a high drug taking score, it is likely that there are many people affected by abstinence of their chosen pasttimes. I had an eye operation requiring me to lie still face down for long periods and regret to say that I couldn't manage the required periods. So I can be understanding of people who have drug habits or are freedom-loving reckless individuals.

      • Adrian 14.2.2
        11 July 2020 at 2:56 pm

        Good assesment AB but there were still quite a few doing runners or walkabouts under 4 and 3, was it something like 6-700 arrests and lots of talking too's ?.

    • tc 14.3
      11 July 2020 at 2:53 pm

      A massive fine for any chump who sees fit to endanger what we've achieved plus the full cost also for the quarantine. Take that !

      Anyway you cut it it's basically a 'F U, I'll be right' attitude which arises from not considering others.

    • Just Is 14.4
      11 July 2020 at 4:20 pm

      Just heard another report that a 60 year old man broke out of a window in an Isolation facility in Hamilton, it took the police an hour to find him.

      There are calls for returnees to have negative C19 test before boarding any flights to return to NZ.

      Personally, I think this should be mandatory for all flights globally.

      It's become evident that some of the people returnig to NZ new they had symptoms, but came here anyway.

  15. observer 15
    11 July 2020 at 1:26 pm

    Usual caveats about polls, but there's plenty of data here to reflect on.

    Remarkable that Labour lead National on the economy, 45-30. That might not be the case if Todd had been doing what he promised on his first day as leader … talking about the economy.

    Instead he's been barking at the cars like Bridges, except with a much smaller vocabulary.

    • Incognito 15.1
      11 July 2020 at 5:17 pm

      So, now it’s woof, woof instead woof, woof, wuff. That’s not vocabulary but the use of onomatopoeias to sound like a dog. All is well in NZ politics. Miaow!

  16. Reality 16
    11 July 2020 at 1:27 pm

    The faces of Adams, Muller and Brownlee on TV1 news last night when Muller was being questioned should be set in stone. Never seen quite that level of discomfort!

  17. OnceWasTim 17
    11 July 2020 at 2:19 pm

    Bloody Hell! Another conspiracy for Mr Muller to sink his teeth into.

    First it's portraits of JA on bus shelters, now it's pavement stickers telling us all to "Keep Left Unite Against Covid 19"

    The Electoral Commission really should get involved!!!! I mean ….why NOW?

    And while they're at it, we should get them to declare all those "Keep Left Unless Passing" signs as electioneering – nobody takes heed of them anyway! And half the people are driving on a fishing licence too!

    (/sarc)

  18. Chris T 18
    11 July 2020 at 2:24 pm

    Another one does a runner.

    Am beginning to wonder if there are decent mental health workers in these places.

    • Ed 18.1
      11 July 2020 at 2:48 pm

      Are these issues regarding alcohol?

    • OnceWasTim 18.2
      11 July 2020 at 2:51 pm

      You mean as opposed to indecent ones? Put 'em in the stocks I reckon! NAME and SHAME is the only answer. That'd learn 'em

      • Chris T 18.2.1
        11 July 2020 at 3:09 pm

        Not sure where that sarcastic comment came from.

        I was just querying if there were councillors talking to these people.

        But by all means, if you think who gives a shit, that is fine

        • OnceWasTim 18.2.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 3:24 pm

          I'm just getting more cynical as I approach dotage @ Chris T. It's a right of passage. Won't be long before the folks at ZB will be offering me a job in their bid to be fair and balanced.

          I think Mike Baker on NewShubs the Nation this morning had some good ideas re handling people in quarantine. But as you know, these things take time

        • Ed 18.2.1.2
          11 July 2020 at 3:30 pm

          Counsellors surely, not councillors?

          • Chris T 18.2.1.2.1
            11 July 2020 at 3:40 pm

            I am slightly dyslexic. Apologies.

            It makes my emails that mention their or there and your and you're quite interesting to read though, which can entertain people at my expense.

            🙂

            • In Vino 18.2.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2020 at 4:29 pm

              Ah – trying to play a false 'PC' card, huh?

              The fact that you can easily spell 'slightly dyslexic' correctly is complete proof that you are no such thing.

              Never try to stand in the way of a good pedant, O careless one.

              • Chris T …
                11 July 2020 at 5:15 pm

                Whatever

                You are awesome and probably right, and me admitting I am shit at spelling is a complete "PC" thing.

                Congrats

                • In Vino …
                  11 July 2020 at 5:47 pm

                  We can all be shit at spelling. Even i can mispell misspel. But I have seen trolls mkae dumb claims about dyslexia, and dumb lefties bekieve it and roll over for them. We can all type a message in a rush and have errors in it.

                  • Chris T …
                    11 July 2020 at 6:23 pm

                    You give me to much credit.

                    I have always just been crap at grammar since my school days.

                    I know big words, but often spell the smaller ones wrong.

                    It isn't a particularly sympathy thing.

                    It is just how it has always been.

    • observer 18.3
      11 July 2020 at 3:41 pm

      I'd hope that mental health workers are available.

      But if they're sitting around in hotels at midnight waiting to respond, then I'd volunteer for isolation tomorrow. Back in the day when I had some (helpful) counselling, they kept office hours. And the taxpayer didn't pick up the tab.

    • Bearded Git 18.5
      11 July 2020 at 9:11 pm

      4 cretins out of 30k do a runner and quickly get caught….NZ quarantine is working magnificently.

      Hasn't it occurred to Muller that in criticising the quarantine process he is consigning himself to oblivion?

      • Chris T 18.5.1
        11 July 2020 at 9:42 pm

        "magnificently."

        One of them was infected and it is pure luck we aren't looking at infections

        • McFlock 18.5.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 10:38 pm

          There was more than enough outrage at going to Rotorua – I'm not sure how a barbed wire internment camp would go down.

          But given the ongoing warnings about novel viruses, we should probably start looking at a dedicated facility or three. Maybe prefab units that can be clipped together in a public park.

          Hotels work in a pinch, but they're not suitable for longer term use. Not just the absconding, they obviously have issues with cohort control and separation, especially at check in.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 18.5.1.2
          11 July 2020 at 10:56 pm

          Chris T, NZ has no detected post-elimination Covid-19 community transmission (so far) due to an ENORMOUS dollop of good management and a near-invisible dusting of "pure luck" – you sound put out by our excellent health outcomes.

          • Chris T 18.5.1.2.1
            11 July 2020 at 11:09 pm

            Not really.

            I am just starting to think it is more luck, than management.

            Look at Victoria. I have family there and they have had the bad version.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 18.5.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2020 at 11:17 pm

              Maybe it's mostly good management in NZ and Australia, with a little bad luck in Victoria. Personally I think it's mostly good management in NZ and Victoria (slightly better management in NZ?), and luck has little to do with it.

              You and Todd just need to be patient – there will be community transmission of Covid-19 again in NZ, but no-one knows when.

              • Chris T …
                11 July 2020 at 11:38 pm

                I think luck has a lot to do with it and I wouldn't give Todd the time of day, so please don't associate me with him for zero reason.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  11 July 2020 at 11:50 pm

                  Has luck really got "a lot" to do with the comparatively bad Covid-19 health stats in Ireland, Sweden, the UK, USA and Brazil? If you think NZ's Covid-19 health outcomes owe more to good luck than good management, then I respectfully suggest that you re-examine your understanding of the factors affecting the spread of global pandemics.

                  Apologies for lumping you in with Todd – you tend to come across here as being more critical of left-leaning policies/governments than those on the right of the political spectrum, but maybe that’s just me.

                  • Chris T …
                    11 July 2020 at 11:53 pm

                    We had a positive person running around for 70 minutes

                    Yes. It is luck

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:12 am

                      There is an element of luck/chance as to whether that positive person (just the one was it?) infected someone else in those 70 minutes.

                      It's management (by public health services and other government institutions), aided and abetted by the general populace (team of nearly 5,000,000), that’s the primary determinant of a country’s overall health outcomes in a global pandemic. That management can be anything ranging from ‘very tight’ to ‘open slather’.

                      Ireland, Sweden, the UK, USA and Brazil each have a Covid-19 death rate per million of population that’s at least 75 times NZ's rate – if you thinks that's due to luck, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 12:17 am

                    And I am sure the people in Victoria would be saying the same thing if the security guard who had alleged shagged the isolated person and not got it.

                    It is blind luck

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:38 am

                      Ireland, Sweden, the UK, USA and Brazil each have a Covid-19 death rate per million population that’s at least 75 times NZ's and Australia’s rates. The number of Covid-19 cases per million population in NZ is at least 14 times lower than those five countries.

                      If you think that's due to (blind) luck, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

                    • McFlock …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:38 am

                      The management part is stopping staff having sex with people in isolation. It's literally a staff management issue. And not the only lapse they had.
                      Our worse lapse is someone speaking to a checkout person or a cop or a neighbour, not tongue-lashing them

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 12:24 am

                    BTW

                    I have no particular allegiance with either the Nats or Labour

                    Voted for Helen once and have never voted National

                    But I do do one thing, And that is hold all parties to account.

                    Edit: And I have a particular distaste for fluffy politics and crap media not asking questions

                    • Chris T …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:53 am

                      When was the last time it hit the average required 4000 a day which is required to be sure of proper monitotiring

                      These are Hipkins numbers, not mine,

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 12:45 am

                    Then lets disagree.

                    Because the bloke only had to splutter on one person (If he did indeed not, in the missing 40 odd minutes) And we could just as easily be looking at Victoria numbers,

                    Who knows as the testing has turned to shite

                    But hey, The govt is doing brilliant when people aren't running off.

                    • Sacha …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:50 am

                      the testing has turned to shite

                      By all means have an opinion divorced from reality but do not try to pass it off as fact.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2020 at 1:05 am

                      Based on measured Covid-19 health outcomes, our Government has indeed done a brilliant job to date. If, despite your relentless carping, you're genuinely keen on holding "all parties to account", then I look forward to your critique of the behaviour of opposition National party MPs over the last week – bit of a shocker eh?

                      Still think the Jamie-Lee Ross deBaclay was the opposition’s ‘lowlight‘ for this term so far, but who knows what the next 2 months will bring wink

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 1:15 am

                    National have been complete idiots.

                    I am still struggling to see how this relates to covid infected people walking out of isolation with little detail of where they went for over an hour

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2020 at 1:23 am

                      And I'm struggling to understand your apparent inability to grasp the relative contributions of "blind luck" and 'management' (by governments, public services et al.) to a particular country's long-term health outcomes during a global pandemic of a novel virus.

                      Surely you can see that the ideology and Covid-19 health advice offered by Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro etc., are having an appreciable effect on the measurable Covid-19 health outcomes of the countries they ‘lead‘.

                      Although I will have to concede that NZ got pretty lucky with Ardern and Bloomfield. We don’t know how lucky…

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 1:18 am

                    I know this is a struggle for you to understand, but I don't support national or labour.

                    I couldn't give a rats arse, if both broke.

                    I look at thingd from both sides

                    Apologies if this is a complete conundrum to you

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 1:31 am

                    I give up.

                    It is obvious you don't see a covid infected person who rock off on one of the busiest streets in the country is an issue.

                    All good

                    We had some blind luck and apparently no one else is infected in his travels.

                    But then who knows as the testing has gone down.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 July 2020 at 1:39 am

                      I give up too – if you can't see a relationship between the ‘economy over health‘ ideology and ‘leadership/management‘ styles offered by Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro etc., and the measurable Covid-19 health outcomes of the countries they 'lead', but would rather attribute the hugely different health outcomes of countries to "blind luck", then we are indeed at an impasse.

                • In Vino …
                  11 July 2020 at 11:52 pm

                  As an aside, I think we should be using schools rather than hotels as detention centres. Schools are so much more like prisons, and most are now already surrounded by horrible spiky fences to keep the nasty local gangsters out. (Thanks to social policies of most governments since the 1980s.)

                  It would be so easy to use schools as concentration camps – only a few would be needed, and minimal security staff would be needed to patrol the perimeter.

                  • Chris T …
                    11 July 2020 at 11:56 pm

                    I would have said the grounds of military bases and campervans like originally, but if you think schools I disagree.

                    • In Vino …
                      12 July 2020 at 12:02 am

                      Sorry – I forgot that some people need a sarc tag.

                      We could fit 25+ people into each classroom, with some extra desks to spare.

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 12:10 am

                    But this ignores the fact it would be a bit dim.

                    But by all means roll with it trying to tell them wise.

                  • Chris T …
                    12 July 2020 at 12:13 am

                    So now we have people saying we should use schools?

                    Brilliant

  19. observer 19
    11 July 2020 at 4:01 pm

    Some people on various social media demanding to know "Where's Tova? Jessica? Why aren't they going after Todd?".

    On a break, is the answer. With an election campaign coming, there won't be any time off for political journos. Parliament is in recess, so this was the obvious time to book. It's not as if they could predict the mad meltdown of the past week (who did?).

    As with the timing of polls and much else, a lot of things that inspire conspiracy theories are simply arranged in advance.

    (and no, that doesn't excuse Newshub's lamentable coverage, at all. But that's the fault of people who are in the building, not one reporter who isn't).

    • In Vino 19.1
      11 July 2020 at 4:20 pm

      And there I was feeling sorry for Tova. Why, I thought to myself, why should she ever again believe anything at all that Todd Muller ever says ???!

      Poor little Tova – I well remember her shamelessly and impudently putting that question to Jacinda Ardern over a far lesser issue during lockdown.

      I was so looking forward to Todd's effort at answering her heart-wrenching question…

      Something like, "Er, no… I can see where you are going with this."

      But poor little Tova is away on holiday, is she?

      Well, I guess both she and we are spared all that agony.

      As is Todd. Typical!

  20. Fireblade 20
    11 July 2020 at 4:12 pm

    It's not politics, just a bit funny. This parrot rocks Led Zeppelin.

    https://www.twitter.com/planetpng/status/1281298450563371015

    • gsays 20.1
      11 July 2020 at 5:54 pm

      That's gorgeous, Fireblade.

      In parts it reminded me of Michelle Boag on The Panel.

  21. ianmac 21
    11 July 2020 at 4:46 pm

    From Luke Malpress on Stuff and I thought Luke was an enthusiastic National man. Again he hints at the National being saved last week by the runaways. But not all MPs are happy. (Reference the faces of Adams and Brownlee during Mullers presser.)

    It is also understood that the National Party had a caucus teleconference on Thursday night at 9.30pm which left many caucus members unhappy. First, according to sources, Muller did not specifically ask if anyone else had received information from Boag. And second, in his first big economic speech, Muller criticised the Government for not having a plan while not presenting a plan himself, instead delivering a directional, but vague, five-point framework to the Canterbury Employers Chamber of Commerce.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122102664/mullers-new-job-convince-the-public-nationals-not-a-moral-vacuum

  22. ianmac 22
    11 July 2020 at 4:51 pm

    It is reported that the Virus has mutated and is much more infectious. It is said to be no more dangerous but just more easily spread. So hands up that we keep the border closed longer? Waiting for confirmation.

  23. Fireblade 23
    11 July 2020 at 5:06 pm

    Watch the video.

    Perspective with Heather du Plessis-Allan. The problem that Todd Muller has and is National telling us the truth?

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/video/heather-du-plessis-allan-is-national-telling-us-the-full-truth/

  24. David Mac 24
    11 July 2020 at 5:16 pm

    I think the WHO investigation into the origins of the virus will at best be a barometer displaying the alignment of Dr Tedros.

    Although beyond redemption, I think Trump is right to take a step away from the UN. It's become a pit of snakes, past it's best before date. It's an organisation that should have it's foundation in a love for each other and it just hasn't. The CCP can have it.

    A worthwhile WHO would bring together the 200 best vaccine minds in the world and give them all they required.

    Wuhan in Hubei province was locked down, residents welded into their apartment buildings, meals passed through railings. At this time 5 million people departed on international flights from Wuhan International Airport, domestic was closed.

    You or I, we'd slam the gates down at Mangere wouldn't we? The thought of knowingly jetting hot-spot people off to all points around the globe conjures up images of Mike Myer's Dr Evil in my mind.

    I get the Chinese need to save face, reluctance to admit fault etc. But sheeesh. I don't think the CCP form is aligned very well with the sentiments and emotions of the 1.4 billion.

    Leading via fear works, but it is always finite, comes to an end. It is natural that our love and respect for each other will rise to be dominant. We are a social animal, inclined to be friends.

  25. ianmac 25
    11 July 2020 at 5:18 pm

    From Chris Leitch outlining the number of dodgy National MPs. These are facts rather than just opinions. New Zealand Politics. Blogger.

    https://www.facebook.com/New-Zealand-Politics-155820134514358/

    So Former National Party President Michele Boag has resigned – from a few things. National's Southland MP Hamish Walker has resigned too, as did the MP he took over from Todd Barclay. Then there was Mike Sabin in 2015, Maurice Williamson in 2014, Aaron Gilmore in 2013, Phil Heatley and Pansy Wong in 2010, Richard Worth in 2009…………..all for things they knew they shouldn't be doing, but did anyway.

    The Serious Fraud Office filed criminal charges against four people in relation to an alleged NZ$100,000 donation paid into a National Party electorate bank account which senior National Party personnel who clearly should have known something about it apparently didn't.

    And Nicky Hager's book Dirty Politics revealed (along with a few other examples of 'dirty politics') that Judith Collins had passed on private information about public servants to right-wing attack-blogger Cameron Slater Again senior National Party personnel who clearly should have known something about it apparently didn't. Collins was also the subject of controversy after an overseas trip where she appeared to be promoting milk products produced by Oravida – a New Zealand company of which her husband was a director.

    There's more, but it doesn't need to be catalogued.

    What's here is surely sufficient to make one question the validity of National's superior attitude towards being the 'natural party of government'. Why would anyone want to vote for more of that?

    And National's claim of being 'superior economic managers' is just as flawed and will be examined in the next post.

    Source; Chris Leitch.

    • gsays 25.1
      11 July 2020 at 6:05 pm

      That is skewering.

      No hyperbole, exaggeration or histrionics.

      I wonder if Kiwiblog is interested? devil

    • In Vino 25.2
      11 July 2020 at 6:29 pm

      Righties and idiots often claim, "Both sides are dirty in Politics." The last one I heard was a woman on RNZ's 'The Panel' on Friday – she made that claim, and then quoted sex scandals associated with Labour Conferences.

      Well, none of them were schemes calculated to make National look bad. More like Labour being made to look bad through the media publicizing 'bigly' rumours and accusations. And let us not forget that the big headlines from Andrea Vance's accusation that Jacinda Ardern had 'covered up' a big sex scandal was later withdrawn and apologized for – at the bottom bit of page 126 where few would notice it…

      National has been constantly caught out at Dirty Politics – manoeuvres deliberately calculated to make Labour look bad. This current one is only the latest. The worst was the deliberate use of material from GSCB (or SIS?) to denigrate Goff during his 2011 election campaign.. only exposed several years later. That election result should have been revoked, the abuse of knowledge explained to the public, and a new election held.

      Come on, you Righties and idiots who say both sides are dirty:

      Please give me a list of Labour's dirty deeds which have been deliberately calculated using foul means to make National look bad.

      Nicky Hager has made a big long list of National doing that to Labour, and none of his accusations has been disproven in court – because they are valid.

      Righties – please tell us exactly how many times the Labour Party or the Left in general have been shown to use subterfuge like Boag's email leaks to deliberately make the other side look bad.

      I don't believe you can supply anything much of substance. Usually the mud slung at Labour is own-goal stuff, exaggerated by hostile news media.

      • Ed 25.2.1
        11 July 2020 at 6:34 pm

        As a matter, who was the woman on RNZ's 'The Panel' on Friday?
        Wallace Chapman is hapless.

        The actions of Woodhouse during a worldwide pandemic are more than Dirty Politics.

        What is the definition of subversion?

        • Gabby 25.2.1.1
          11 July 2020 at 7:14 pm

          I do wonder sometimes if Wallace hears the way he speaks, in which case the world would be a wondrous bowl of vigorously tossed garbled word salad.

          • In Vino 25.2.1.1.1
            11 July 2020 at 7:52 pm

            Yes, I suspect it is Wallace's task to trivialise and divert, just as it was Jim Mora's.

        • In Vino 25.2.1.2
          11 July 2020 at 7:25 pm

          Ed – I now think it was Thursday, not Friday. I managed to listen to Friday on RNZ website, and it was not her. I got lost in trying to hear Thursday's panel in their demands that I enrol for ipods and God only knows what..

          • Matiri 25.2.1.2.1
            11 July 2020 at 8:10 pm

            It was Nalini Baruch on Thursday's The Panel and Alexia Russell on Friday.

            • In Vino 25.2.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2020 at 8:18 pm

              Thanks. It was near the start, and I now know it was not Alexia. I could not access Thursday so I do not want want to accuse Nalini in case it was Wednesday..

          • Chris T 25.2.1.2.2
            12 July 2020 at 12:56 am

            Sorry In Vino

            There is no reply link on your other post.

            So repeat

            When was the last time it hit the average required 4000 a day which is required to be sure of proper monitotiring

            These are Hipkins numbers, not mine,

            • In Vino 25.2.1.2.2.1
              12 July 2020 at 11:21 am

              I don't know why you are asking me, Chris T: I made no statement at all about testing.

      • I Feel Love 25.2.2
        11 July 2020 at 7:14 pm

        One of the goals of Dirty Politics was to seed that doubt in the public, that they "all" do it, to undermine the notion of "big" Govt.

        • In Vino 25.2.2.1
          11 July 2020 at 7:37 pm

          Yeah – Why on Earth did I waste my keyboarding time? No Rightie will reply, because no Rightie has a list of anything to offer.

          • Chris T 25.2.2.1.1
            12 July 2020 at 12:58 am

            Pledge cards kind of rings a bell

            • In Vino 25.2.2.1.1.1
              12 July 2020 at 11:24 am

              Was that a dirty trick by Labour designed to make the Right look bad? I think not… I seem to remember it was played upon to make Labour look bad.

      • Anne 25.2.3
        11 July 2020 at 7:36 pm

        The worst was the deliberate use of material from GSCB (or SIS?) to denigrate Goff during his 2011 election campaign.. only exposed several years later.

        That was former SIS Director, Warren Tucker. The current Director, Rebecca Kitteridge formally apologised to Phil Goff a few years down the track.

        Cameron Slater requested the SIS held material on Phil Goff and Tucker sent it to him. My suspicion is: Tucker was directed to supply the material to Slater from either John Key himself or someone from the PM's Office acting on his behalf.

        One day the truth about that scandalous affair will be released.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11363842

        “Inspector General of Intelligence and Security Ms Gwyn has been investigating allegations made in author Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics that as part of a long-running National Party dirty-tricks campaign, the Security Intelligence Service and Mr Key’s office worked together to release politically embarrassing material to Slater, who used it to discredit Mr Goff.”

        • In Vino 25.2.3.1
          11 July 2020 at 7:42 pm

          Thanks, Anne.

          You are not a Rightie giving me what I asked for, but you have magnificently reinforced what I wrote about the travesty of the 2011 election. And from what I recall, that 'embarrassing material' was not even true…

  26. ScottGN 26
    11 July 2020 at 8:05 pm

    So the story of the 60 year old who busted through a window, out of quarantine, and went banging on the neighbour’s doors is already slipping out of the news sites headlines. No push for the story from the opposition I guess. So, provided we don’t go down Victoria’s unhappy path these few incidents, at odds with the 99.9% of people who are going through quarantine properly, will become nothing more than what they should be, the background noise to our successful Covid response.

  27. greywarshark 27
    11 July 2020 at 9:09 pm

    Some clever, smart thinking going on in the rest of the country out side the Gnats bubble. (I don't know what they've got but I'd keep at least 2m away).

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018754423/calls-for-nz-wool-to-be-used-in-govt-buildings-and-homes

    A couple of sheep are looking thoughtful about this idea, and I think probably like it. It seems the sort of thing that practical TS would go along with. How about signing the petition.

    A Southland farmer is calling for New Zealand wool to be used in all publicly-funded buildings and KiwiBuild homes, for carpeting and insulation.

    A petition has been started and signed by more than 7000 people.

    https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_99224/petition-of-amy-blaikie-new-zealand-wool-products-used

  28. Observer Tokoroa 28
    12 July 2020 at 8:37 am

    Thanks to – Greywarshark – And thanks also to – Just is-

    We are getting some very good uptodate Information and wisdom !

    It does not amaze me that GrannyPoof Herald writes lines and lines of lies, and squeezes its endless Army of Bias, out of it's much treasured enormous Ass.

    As David Attenborough might say – the Herald Species is breathing out its last few breaths.

  29. Whispering Kate 29
    12 July 2020 at 1:11 pm

    Hi Grey I see on Newshub that Michael Baker the Epidemiologist is suggesting that some returnees are presenting with addiction problems and need help staying in isolation for 14 days. He suggested as one of the props to help their stay over being Nicotine patches. I thought to myself maybe my email to the Hon Chris Hipkins (which was then forwarded to Dr Megan Woods) has been actually taken in and discussed. I can hope but its probably such an obvious idea that many others have proffered their opinions as well. But I did the deed and the next day it has been suggested. Amen to that.

    The eminent doctor also suggested health checks and help for other mental health issues. They need to get on top of it whatever the outcome.

    https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/covid-19-nz-to-quarantine-people-in-isolation-for-months-maybe-years-epidemiologist/ar-BB16BkDC

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