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Open mike 11/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 11th, 2019 - 117 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

117 comments on “Open mike 11/08/2019 ”

  1. johnm 1

    Roger Hallam, co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, speaks to a packed hall in Penzance, Cornwall, during his 'Time is Now' tour. He examines the reality of climate change, what social collapse means and why non violent direct action is a catalyst for change.


    • johnm 1.1

      A Concise Overview

      [Deleted long text (again; 1,316 words, this time) without quote marks that is in the link provided]


      [You have asked before to put quote marks around copied & pasted text.

      You have been asked to provide a brief summary, reason, and explanation why people should watch a (long) clip or read a link (to long text; in this case, 1,316 words).

      In your comment @ 1 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-08-2019/#comment-1645338) you actually do it well so I conclude that you are lazy and can’t be bothered other times. You continue to display inconsiderate behaviour and you continue to ignore repeat moderation requests and warnings. Take a week off to contemplate whether you want to continue commenting here – Incognito]

    • weka 1.2

      Lots of respect for Roger Hallam, from what I have seen in the past he is good value. I was going to say I wish they would make shorter videos, but I'm only ten minutes in and holy fuck this is good. Compulsory and riveting.

      This is a man who knows there is nothing left to lose and it willing to speak the truth and do what needs to be done. He has a beautiful blend of social, political and emotional intelligence. I feel relieved when I see that people like him are the ones running things in ER.

      This is why ER in the UK is exemplary. I think other ER around the world, eg in NZ, are struggling a bit to get the deeper aspects of what ER UK are doing and why it works. I need to have a think about this so I can get my thoughts clearer, but it's something that needs to be talked about. What should rebellion look like in NZ?

      • cleangreen 1.2.1

        Agree Weka;

        Government now needs to hear and learn from those who know truth to power.

        We all need to concentrate on the thorny issue of tyre dust with the major component 1,3, butadiene and black carbon polution as a real human threat as tyre dust is now being washed off our roads into drains, creeks, rivers, lakes, aquifers, and into the sea and now found on the polar ice caps speeding up melting of the polar ice caps.

        Tyre dust is our ticking time boomb as plastic was.so see the human damage we face now from tyre dust.

        TYRE DUST = EPA has classified 1,3-butadiene as a known human carcinogen. The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has given 1,3-butadiene a rating of A2, suspected human carcinogen.

        Occupational Safety and Health Administration
        • 1,3-Butadiene

        • Andre

          *sigh* I s'pose there may be some new readers seeing this for the first time, so it needs to be explained yet again.

          1,3 butadiene is a gaseous precursor that gets polymerised with liquid styrene to form solid styrene-butadiene rubber. SBR is part of the mix in modern tyre rubber. That does not mean tyres will be a significant source of 1,3 butadiene in the environment, the original gaseous butadiene has been entirely converted to a different solid polymer.

          The hazard of a monomer tells you nothing about how hazardous a compound formed from that monomer may be. The hazards of styrene or propylene tell you nothing about the hazards of polystyrene of polypropylene plastic. Isocyanates used to make polyurethanes are so hazardous I'm astonished they're legal to be sold without a license, but the resulting polyurethane is very low hazard. 1,3 butadiene gas is hazardous, styrene-butadiene rubber is damn near inert and is now more likely to evolve 1,3 butadiene during decomposition or burning than any other mostly carbon substances.

          1,3 butadiene will be detectable beside busy roads. However the source will be almost entirely vehicle exhaust (mostly diesel), not tyre dust. Or from burning wood or other vegetation nearby. It's the kind of small carbon-rich molecule commonly produced by incomplete combustion.

          • cleangreen

            Learn your chemistry fundermentals as you believe Tyres are a stable composition no that is false.

            Any polymer can be broken down when mixing with other elements..

            Study "subsitution reaction" and see how it changes the composition of any chemical in any form and combines to produce a far more hazardous chemical harmful to humans.

            Heat also combines to release unstable elements of a so called stable polymer and you should know this.

            I suppose you think DDT is good for us and other banned substances such as carbon tetrachloride?

            Dont try to say that chemicals are stable as you look foolish.

            I should know as i was checally poisoned by those like you who reasured us to breathe the air in the builing when 40 workers got poisoned me as one of them.

            I had an adopose tiissue sample conducted on me after exposure and it had proved positive that i had absorbed those ‘so called’ "stable chemicals"

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.2

        What should rebellion look like in NZ?

        Excellent question. Since I'm 70 next week I'd better act my age rather than speak as the archetypal rebel of the sixties generation!

        It must not default to mere protest. Learn from the failure of the Occupy movement: front with a positive alternative rather than petulant complaints about others. Posturing fails to broaden consensus. For that, you have to present a better path to the future than the status quo recycled ad nauseum.

        If the positive alternative seems clear, promises benefits that folks can buy into, and seems worth the effort, folks will shift towards it and help actualise the better future.

        • cleangreen

          Yes Dennis as we get older we see through the cracks.

          The world is full of con-artists today, and if we believe them we are all sunk, so we have to go on our memory of the past and compare it to our life experience today, and the older folks will finallly shine through.

          That will be what a revollution will look like.

          We see the clear way forward with the hindsight of a long life experience we have.

    • Robert Guyton 1.3

      I watched it through.

  2. Jenny - How to Get there? 2

    Dear NZ Police, Maori land protectors are not the problem.

    Before continuing to deploy dozens of officers to Ihumateo to protect the commercial interests of Fletchers All available police resources need to be deployed to track down the convicted neo-nazi white supremacist killer on the loose, before he commits another atrocity.

    …..a member of a notorious and extremely violent white power gang, the Fourth Reich, co-founded by convicted murderer and rapist Malcolm Chaston while he was in Christchurch Men’s Prison in the 1990s.

    Witnesses at the nine day trial said the day before the murder they heard Howie say: “If any Māoris get in the way we will knock them down,”. His brother gave evidence that Howie told him: “We killed that n….. and threw him in the river.”


    Who knows what could happen if this racist killer gets hold of a weapon, or his known associates supply him with one.

    • Jenny - How to Get there? 2.1

      Compare the police "manhunt" for Aaron Howie with the police hunt for liam Strickland.

      Will the known gang associates and “friends and family” of Aaron Howie, be subjected to the same sort of police “pressure” that is being applied to the “friends and family” of Liam Strickland?

      If not, why not?


      • Jenny - How to Get there? 2.1.1

        How many of Aaron Howie's friends or associates are registered gun owners?

        Are their houses being raided?

        Are their doors being broken down?

        How many guns do they have?

        Well nobody knows the answer to that last question, because registered gun owners are not required to register their guns, or even list how many they have. Nobody would know if one went missing.

        Who would ever know if they passed one to Aaron Howie?

        If you asked me the public threat level for this murderous white supremacist and his associates in the "Fourth Reich" gang is very high.

        Why is a hit and run driver on the run, considered to be more of a public threat than a convicted neo-nazi murderer on the run?

        • Psycho Milt

          Why is a hit and run driver on the run, considered to be more of a public threat than a convicted neo-nazi murderer on the run?

          Because one's on the run for killing somebody, and the other's on the run for breaching parole conditions. The cops consider one of those crimes to imply a more serious and immediate threat to public safety than the other, for fairly obvious reasons.

          • Jenny - How to Get there?

            one's on the run for killing somebody, and the other's on the run for breaching parole conditions.

            Psycho Milt

            One killed someone unintentionally with reckless disregard for public safety.

            One killed someone intentionally with malice aforethought.

            One is linked to a political movement that has committed and endorsed mass killings.

            One is a gang affiliate.

            One is having his associates and family's doors kicked in.

            One isn't.

            Which one of these fugitives do you think represents a bigger potential threat to public safety?

            It probably depends who you ask.

            White Pakeha New Zealanders might say the Maori gang member.

            Maori and Asian immigrants and Muslim New Zealanders might say the White Supremacist.

            How many Pakeha New Zealanders believe New Zealand is “racist as f***" that New Zealand is "a racist place."

            “It’s racist as f***. I mean, I think New Zealand is the best place on the planet, but it’s a racist place,”

            Taika Waititi

            • Psycho Milt

              People can say whatever they like about who they think's more dangerous – everyone's entitled to their opinion. Police operations are a different matter, and it would be a bad thing if those were determined by popular opinion about which criminals are more disliked, rather than the actual nature of the offending. In this case, one offence is much more serious than the other and police operations reflect that.

    • Dukeofurl 2.2

      "dozens of officers to Ihumateo to protect the commercial interests of Fletchers"

      Thats not how it started out

      A short time ago, kaumatua and kuia representing mana whenua from Te Kawerau ā Maki, Te Ākitai Waiohua, and Tainui, walked onto the land [23 July] that Fletcher Building owns at Ōruarangi Road, known as Ihumātao, and asked protestors to leave.

      The kaumaua and kuia recited karakia as they walked towards the maunga (mountain) of Puketāpapa a Hape, supported by Fletcher Building, representatives of the Kingitanga, and Police.

      The reason for the local iwi supporting the developers was :

      "We have committed to returning over 25% of the land that we own to mana whenua, and we are currently working through how to do this."

      • marty mars 2.2.1

        "Miscommunication between the police and protesters led to the tense standoff, he said.

        Mr Haumaha has assured the occupiers he will ensure that does not happen again.

        "We've got to a point now we can minimise the police presence on this whenua and just maintain a small number around the health and safety for everyone," he said.

        "We have arrived at a good point to prevent any miscommunication that may have occurred in the past and so to avoid that we have appointed somebody to come along and sit alongside the organisers that are here and continue to work together along those lines.""


        • Dukeofurl

          Yes. Thats what happened last week, it was different back in 23rd July.

          Usually the Police will say they dont get involved in civil disputes, Im sure they are saying SOUL have been there since 2015 ….so why are we even here now….and they see the grassed paddocks they are protecting from what.

          • marty mars

            I'm looking forward to seeing what eventual consensus brings – even as those opposed to that sow their terminator seeds of dissent disguised as concern.

            • Dukeofurl

              When I put my magic thinking hat on and guided by real events, I see Auckland Council has long owned the 10 ha or so block next to the Wallace/Fletcher land on Oruarangi Rd , Cnr Ihumatao Rd.

              They do a land swap with Fletchers for the land right next to the Papakainga/Makarau Marae, which by various means then becomes land for the iwi they are all happy with. Of course the wind blows my magic hat off and there is no money for creating sections and building houses.

              Who knew existing publicly owned land could be so useful ?

    • ianmac 3.1

      Remember Sacha when Key claimed "different hats" when responding to whether he should reveal correspondence with Slater? Funny old World is Parliament.

      • Sacha 3.1.1

        Painfully so.

      • MickeyBoyle 3.1.2

        Is wasnt right then, it's not right now. Genter needs to front and release the letter. Not be a complete hypocrite and opaque.

        • Anne

          Is wasnt right then, it's not right now. Genter needs to front and release the letter. Not be a complete hypocrite and opaque.

          Bullshit and jellbeans.

          Genter has admitted she used the letterhead paper because… that was all she had.

          And guess what, since this puerile political ploy was started by the Nats (of course), politicians of all colours have been busy acquiring plain white paper for their offices. So it would seem the use of parliamentary letterheads for all manner of communications has been endemic in parliament… probably for decades.

          Oh you naughty girl Julie Anne. Fancy carrying on a tradition that has been practiced for decades. You should have known better. (sarc)

          • MickeyBoyle

            In other words when National did it = bad. When we do it = it's just the norm. Got it…

            • marty mars

              I hope you do get it because otherwise you'll be pretty unhappy and moaning a lot.

    • Dennis Frank 3.2

      Unless Bishop can point to any rule in the Cabinet rule-book that she has broken, much ado about nothing, seems to me.

      "Both Ms Genter and her boss (Minister Twyford) leant on a ruling from the Ombudsman, related to Official Information requests, that argued that political parties in a coalition need to be able to freely communicate opinions without fear of them being revealed."

      It would help if the rule-book specified governing party negotiations as private info. Public info would be that covered by the OIA (govt decisions etc). Since the negotiating is a separate process from consequent decision-making, there's a line that can be drawn if it is currently too indistinct.

      This idea that a human is actually dual in parliamentary terms if both minister & party rep doesn't factor in human psychology. People are naturally holistic, seeing themselves as single individuals. Pretending they ain't raises the question of the ethics of promoting delusional thinking in democracy…

      • Dukeofurl 3.2.1

        Thats right.

        Genter is Associate Minister for Road Safety. If she was writing outside her ministerial remit ( which she was) it was as a Green Party MP.

        • Shadrach

          "If she was writing outside her ministerial remit ( which she was) it was as a Green Party MP."

          JAG is the Associate Minister of Transport.

          She wrote the letter on Ministerial letterhead, and signed the letter as the Associate Minister.

          Multiple Wellington Councillors claim that the mayor told them that JAG and one other Green MP threatened to resign if they did not vote for the mass transit plan. The Mayor denies that, but then of course he would.

          The LGWM pan is significantly different to what the LGWM group, and many Wellington councillors, supported.

          This has all the hallmarks of the Greens imposing their ideology on Wellington over the best interests of the region. And being stupid enough to think they could get away with it.

          • Dukeofurl

            Associate Ministers have specific areas of a portfolio. Its not a finger in every part of the Transport pie.

            The Schedule of Responsibilities Delegated to Associate Ministers provides a summary list of the responsibilities that portfolio Ministers have delegated to Associate Ministers.


            Associate Minister of Transport: Hon Julie Anne Genter


            Responsibility for walking and cycling policy, including policy development and consequential Regulations (excluding Budget-related decisions);

            Responsibility for the electric vehicles programme, and the vehicle greenhouse gas emissions programme, including policy development and consequential Regulations (excluding Budget-related decisions);

            Responsibility for all land transport Rules and Regulations, unless otherwise specifically advised by the Minister of Transport;

            Responsibility for all transport safety matters (aviation, maritime, rail and road), including policy development and making of all relevant Rules and consequential Regulations, unless otherwise specifically advised by the Minister of Transport;

            Day-to-day oversight of Crown agency relations in respect of the Transport Accident Investigation Commission and Maritime New Zealand (excluding Budget-related decisions);

            Responsibility for all maritime transport matters, including policy development and making of all relevant Rules and consequential Regulations, unless otherwise specifically advised by the Minister of Transport;

            Responsibility for the provision of weather forecasting services (currently provided under contract by MetService), in terms of the Meteorological Services Act 1990 (excluding Budget-related decisions);

            Responsibility for transport research and statistics, and the associated publications throughout the year;

            General assistance in the portfolio, in particular in relation to setting the strategic direction for the transport sector, ensuring alignment between strategy, policy and regulations within the land transport sector, and policy development to integrate transport (including public transport) and urban development.

            The letterhead is just an office issue. If the letter wasnt about road safety issues it wasnt within her remit as an associate minister.

            • Shadrach

              "Associate Ministers have specific areas of a portfolio. Its not a finger in every part of the Transport pie."

              I don't see that as relevant. JAG is an Associate Minister. And the first words of the last paragraph of the list of responsibilities indicates her involvement can be broad.

              "The letterhead is just an office issue."

              No, it isn't. If she was writing as a Green MP, she could have sent a generic email, and signed it as a Green MP.

              "If the letter wasnt about road safety issues it wasnt within her remit as an associate minister."

              From your list above"

              "General assistance in the portfolio, in particular in relation to setting the strategic direction for the transport sector, ensuring alignment between strategy, policy and regulations within the land transport sector, and policy development to integrate transport (including public transport) and urban development."

              Absolutely a letter to the MoT about LGWM is within her remit as a Minister.

      • Incognito 3.2.2

        In your last paragraph, did you mean “reductionist” instead of “holistic”?

        • Dennis Frank

          No, I meant people operate as, and also see themselves as, organic wholes. Human nature is naturally holistic. The binary divide kicks in via differentiation, which is indeed a basic survival skill, but self vs other is less basic than the sense of being part of the whole (world).

          The problem I'm seeing in respect of ministerial convention is that some folks are more binary than others, some more naturally holistic. Those of us adept at playing a variety of roles in life can do the shapeshifter thing easily. Others are liable to forget the necessity to wear the different hats and pretend to be merely a functionary when required – which is the reductionist stance you mention…

  3. cleangreen 4

    More evidence of National's dirty politics part two is now fronting on main stream media RNZ and others.


    Chris Bishop is questioning Julie Anne Genter over a letter sent from her as deputy Minister of Transport to Minister of transport Phil Twyford?????
    The letter apparently contains Green Party opinions expressed by Genter to Twyford on a Wellington City transport plan; opinions which may have influenced the shape of the plan that was agreed to.

    But the details of the letter are unknown and have not been the main fight so far. The fight has been over whether the letter should be public.

    Was that the best "dirt" the National Party strategists coucld find on these associated Ministers of Transport?

    So how did he get the letter which was suppoosed to be an 'internal 'confidential' document as we saw when Natioinal was last in Government?

    Was it an internional leaked document sent from a 'National Party mole' opeerating inside these two Ministers offices?

    There is something very odd about the Minister oif Transport Phil Twyford's office because for two years we have as a NGO in Napier been refused our letters requesting to meet with Minister Phil Twyford and on several occassions our NGO has called Phil Twyford's office and been 'rebuttled' with a sharp refussal to discuss the issue of why we are not recieving an apointment time to meet with Phil twyford in Wellington.

    We are not impressed at all with the office staff at Phil Twyfords office and perhsaps they need to investigate the beackground of all Government ministers as some may be opposition policitical operatives trying to sabotage the govenement?

    I recall that during the Last 'toxic' National Government it was Steven Joyce who sent a memo around the office staffers warning them that they would need to be loyal to the ministers and not report any issues or information to the press that ?may embassess the Governemt and would be a 'dismissable offence if it was carried out".

    Perhaps now Labour leader PM Adern needs to repeat this threat using the Steven Joyce memo again during her reign?

    Or at least conduct full background intellegence into the 'polical leanings' of all office staff within the parliamentary pool?

  4. Blazer 5

    Breaking news…'Kieran Read's Colgate sponsorship could be at risk!

    Not smiling …enough.

  5. Ad 6

    Anyone else's legs hurt from putting up local electorate candidate hoardings all day yesterday?

  6. Robert Guyton 7



  7. Dennis Frank 8

    Do you feel sufficiently coddled? Try to put your answer in context of how governance ought to provide for sufficient coddling. You could produce the long-awaited revival of socialism!

    "US social psychologist and author Jonathan Haidt spoke on 1 August in Auckland to a crowd of around one thousand people. He is best known for his book The Coddling of the American Mind which examines the new climate of trigger warnings and acute sensitivity of Gen Z." Apparently the ego fragility of this generation is noteworthy. The marxist reviewer was impressed by the audience…

    "At question time were serious questions, and no long grandstanding time-hogging speeches. So it clearly wasn’t a left wing crowd!" https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/08/11/jonathan-haidt-in-auckland-a-quick-recap/

    Well, blow me down. Competitive grandstanding and time-hogging by audiences pretending to ask questions has been a thing for as long as I can remember. People are becoming more polite & considerate??

  8. joe90 9

    When a rich, powerful man connected lots of other rich, powerful men in suspected child sex trafficking crimes has allegedly killed himself while in custody at one of the most secure facilities in the US…

  9. Rosemary McDonald 10

    Sobering Stuff from the Far Far North, https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114339192/a-couple-pay-300-a-week-for-a-room-with-no-lights-at-a-decrepit-backpackers one of a series co-written by a journalist who has caught my attention for her propensity for 'horses mouth' articles.

    The housing situation is dire up there and this is compounded by the ubiquity of meth. Its fucking everywhere up there. Some of us thought, in years past, that the problem was cannabis…but P…a whole different level of damage.

    And its not as if there aren't some very good local groups trying to address these issues…

    • that is some good journalism/use of stats..

      the far north creaks from the burden of endemic poverty…

    • xanthe 10.2

      "Some of us thought, in years past, that the problem was cannabis…but P…a whole different level of damage."

      Some of us have thought for many years that the problem was the criminalization of cannabis. The current P epidemic seems to support that thought.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.2.1

        xanthe…I get the argument about criminalization of drug use not being conducive to alleviating/avoiding/mitigating drug harm…but if severe punishment would stop folks from deliberately packing their kids into the car and filling the same with thick cannabis smoke so said kids were totally zonked by the time the family go to where they are going, then bring on the stocks and the lash. Sorry if this offends….but I have seen this with my own eyes and ask any teacher in the North about the effect this has on the kids' ability to learn. One small school board a few years ago when P was starting to become a 'thing' challenged all whanau at the school to commit to zero drugs and alcohol. Maybe two out of twenty families took the pledge. And so the cycle continues. Most of the the time this is deliberate, and they'll do it with alcohol as well, so it is disingenuous to blame ignorance and poverty. It was bad enough with cannabis…but now its P, and its happening that the way P affects thought processes those parents who may have not subjected their kids to first hand cannabis and alcohol have few if any inhibitions when they're on P.

        I've been speaking with a van dwelling friend who has roamed that region over the past few years and she says it is almost impossible to find safe overnight parking at the moment. (We spend a lot of our time up there in our bus, and would be in a position to support her were we not stuck in the Waikatocrying) I've been encouraging her to go to campgrounds for safety…but these can also habour individuals and groups using P and alcohol and just last night she was alarmed when violence erupted in the camp.

        P is cheaper and more readily available than cannabis, I'm told, and the North is flooded with it.

        The article speaks about struggling to find work….there has been about 1000000 avacado trees planted up there over the past few years, and those who are willing and able to work shouldn't have much of a problem. Housing is shit…and I'm hoping some of those rich prick orchardists up North will see their way clear to emulate the apple growers in Hawkes Bay who are investing in better seasonal worker housing to free up houses for the community.

        • xanthe

          "but if severe punishment would stop folks from deliberately packing their kids into the car and filling the same with thick cannabis smoke so said kids were totally zonked by the time the family go to where they are going, then bring on the stocks and the lash"

          That's the crux of the matter, history and many years of experience shows it doesn't !

          check out this quote which may or may not be Einstein's


          This quote is particularly poignant as it is appropriate to both drug abusers and criminalization promoters,

          • Rosemary McDonald

            What is the answer xanthe? Be buggered if I can think of a way to get the message through to parents who simply don't ever consider that their actions/inactions today are very possibly condemning their kids to the same dead end miserable shit hole conditions that they, the parents, will argue (or will be told by a succession of well meaning do gooders)drove them to the drugs in the first place.

            (Btw, without going into whole lot of personal disclosures…it is possible to have seriously neglected and abused children living in households unaffected by material poverty. It is possible, but extraordinarily difficult, to not go down the same path as one's parents…but from my own experience, and after speaking with the many others who have also survived to not repeat the cycle, the key seems to be steering well clear of routine alcohol and drug use.)

        • greywarshark

          Trouble with avocadoes is that they are expensive in shops and therefore worth stealing. If an orchardist in Far North could get a relationship with surrounding Maori to provide work for those who want it, and it was ongoing, there could be a fair amount of peer watchfulness and 'ownership' of our orchard workplace. If another group or person could start work gangs and get them regular work going outside the area for those who are rated as A workers, there could be a real change of mindset within a couple of years. But entrenched attitudes put entrepreneurs off up there according to what I have been told.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            Some of the orchards are owned by iwi. We shot back up North last month for a couple of weeks and for the first time we heard that the established orchards are having to post security…it will be interesting to see how the come-lately Big Boys participating in the Mass Plant fare when their trees begin producing in earnest. Many of those new orchards are planted along SH1, not off the back roads with big shelter belts. Up until this year, the avos up there would have definitely been worth stealing….even the five for 2 dollars bags had lovely fruit. This year….not so much. I threw away a four for five dollars bag. Seasonal work has been a regular thing up there for ages and the local WINZ, after pushing many off the dole (and off the wharves fishing) and into some of the many jobs going up there seems to be amenable to not knobbling those people who fill vital labour gaps by doing part time work. A phone call, and an adjustment is made to the benefit without the person being worse off or ending up with a bog debt. Come mussel spat harvest time its all available hands on deck…and good hourly rate too. But this is not work for the hungover….

      • Peter 10.2.2

        I can't get my head around it. Lots of people used cannabis and many people use P and the problem is the criminalization those things?

        Why do so many right through our society have to use drugs like tobacco, alcohol cannabis and P? Are they crutches and props because life without them is so shit?

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          "Why do so many right through our society have to use drugs like tobacco, alcohol cannabis and P?"

          Peer pressure is one 'door', followed by (biochemical/physiological) addiction which can overwhelm any incentives to get 'clean'.

          "$1.8 Billion: Estimated annual social cost of illicit drug-related harm"

          • Rosemary McDonald

            You need to add to that the cost of alcohol harm.

            • reason

              Drug abuse including Alcohol get worse when you have politicians who would rather scapegoat and puit the boot in ………. than help.

              When it comes to slum condition housing, and kids living in cars …. Politicians and bad governance are FAR more to blame … than drug abuse….

              Judith Collins in particular was the Govt arm in the Dirty Politics operation to neuter Alcohol reform …. Alcohol abuse was one of the main pillars for the violence and dysfunction portrayed in the very well acted NZ movie, "Once were Warriors"…..

              She also makes unbelievable excuses in defense of rich criminals … according to one of the worlds best corruption exposing investigative journalists.

              After inviting questions after her speech, a Northland delegate referenced a recent UN report on child poverty, and said that was the background of all people they dealt with, particularly gang members.

              "Do you think your government is doing enough for child poverty, and the gap between those that do have, and those that don't have?" Collins was asked.

              Collins then started projecting the type of person she is ,,, particulary her concern for struggling families onto her victims.

              It's not that, it's people who don't look after their children, that's the problem.

              "I see a poverty of ideas, a poverty of parental responsibility, a poverty of love, a poverty of caring."

              This morning, Collins did not back away from that view, telling Newstalk ZB's Mike Hosking that it was the "usual suspects" who were upset by her comments.

              God save NZ from politicians like her …………. shes a 'taker'.


          • greywarshark

            The focus on stopping cigarette smoking by putting the prices up high would tend to divert some to P or whatever if the price is then equal. Once getting on the drug taking practice, then economics and bang for your buck comes into it. And the peer thing, friends are taking it and they share with you when in funds, and in turn you share with them. It's a bonding thing.

            Getting your kids past the age of youth addiction to alcohol and these other things when there isn't a shiny future of work and creating a life, is quite a task for parents. If they are users, doubly hard, it would be don't do what I do. If they could travel away from their cohort to where they could make up their minds what to study and be looked after in a hostel it could put a wedge into youth addiction.

            The emphasis would be to study and pass something, try one or two subjects and pass them, get a feeling for what career they would like, physical and outdoor stuff, fencing or managing, or indoor stuff, computer work combined with skilled artisan stuff. An appreciative encouragement from gummint and their would be an upward line towards successful numbers of trainess and the spiteful class would have to find other targets to vent their displeasure on.

            • Rosemary McDonald

              There's much sense in what you suggest GWS and mostly I agree. Trouble is that tragically, many of these children are adversely affected before birth and this is compounded by getting extra doses, sometimes on a daily basis, because they are breathing in the second hand smoke from ma and pa's cannabis, synthetics or P. Little buggers are multiply handicapped and often end up in the care of grandparents because their own drug addled parents can't cope with the damage they've done. Its a tragedy and needs to be turned around. I hoped within hope that Whanau Ora was going to create a program where a whaea can be paid to mentor a family out of these destructive lives…https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12257338

              Whanau Ora workers know hundreds of families live in these circumstances every day.

              And we do know that for every family struggling to survive there is another family member, immediate or extended, who would step up and start to transform the family if supported to do so.

              Someone who is trusted, someone who will call bad behaviour exactly what it is in many instances, neglect. Someone who will need to be resourced whether for training or skills development in how to handle the high and multiple needs of their family.

        • xanthe

          saying that giving people hope and purpose will reduce drug abuse is not excusing any behavior, Its stating a fairly obvious fact

          on the other hand It is my firm opinion that the war on P is being shown to be just about as effective as the war on cannabis. That is it completely ineffective at reducing use and greatly increasing harm.

          back to the definition of insanity!

          what the "war on drugs" does do is

          1 creates a massively profitable criminal industry.

          2 engenders corruption in the law enforcement .

          how does any rational person support that ?

  10. greywarshark 11

    Just to remind ourselves what dirty dairying can look like. 16/5/2018


    And good news from the Labour coalition 11 August 2019: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396427/govt-backs-community-led-waterways-cleanup-with-12m-boost

    Lately from Oz: 'Dirty apartments' from bad building in Australia – a very bad business. Neolib economics we who desire good governance, good standards, and good lives – we despise you and all that push you like demented druggies.


    Deregulation and poor-quality workmanship over the last two decades have resulted in shoddily built apartments, some with major structural cracks forcing residents to evacuate, flammable cladding, and balconies with water seeping through them.

  11. swordfish 12

    Glad to see Henry Cooke & I are on the same page vis-a-vis NZF support trajectories when in Govt.

    (Me: https://thestandard.org.nz/what-is-up-with-nz-first/#comment-1644703 & https://thestandard.org.nz/what-is-up-with-nz-first/#comment-1644972 He: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114881495/winston-peters-doesnt-care-about-the-average-voter-neither-should-the-greens ) …

    … I'd take issue, however, when Cooke argues:

    We know a little bit about these (NZF) voters from the New Zealand Election Survey, a massive post-election survey of voters … A quarter of the 2014 NZ First voters said "abortion is always wrong"a far higher proportion than the ratings for Labour, National, and the Greens.

    Yeah, it's certainly true that around a quarter of 2014 NZF voters agreed that abortion is always wrong according to NZES. But the proportion of 2014 Labour & National voters feeling the same way was only mildly lower.

    abortion is always wrong ?

    49% Cons

    37% Maori Party

    25% NZF

    23% Non-Voters

    22% Labour

    17% National

    15% IMP

    11% Green

    (Note: a larger margin of error for NZF Con Maori & IMP voters).

    That, in turn, raises the broader point that Labour voters are by no means as overwhelmingly liberal / libertarian … nor Nats as overwhelmingly conservative / authoritarian … as many pundits seem to assume.

    Recent iterations of the NZES suggest the support-bases of both Major Parties are relatively evenly divided between Moral Cons & Libs … whereas voters for the Smaller Parties fall decisively one way or the other: … Greens being Economically Left & Morally Liberal / NZFers being Economically Left & Morally Conservative.

    • Sacha 12.1

      That Māori Party number is interesting. So many people misread them as a party of the left.

      • Incognito 12.1.1

        Interesting comment. To me, it shows that defining or categorising politics and people’s values and attitudes (and morals!) in terms of Left-Right or Liberal-Conservative is overly simplistic and not at all helpful when discussing singular but complex issues.

        • OnceWasTim

          /agreed. Having said that, I'd be interested to know what you and others think of the political compass ( https://www.politicalcompass.org/ ).

          Not perfect, but maybe its just that we need different labels on the Left-Right axis

          Excuse me if I just selfishly sit back and watch for the responses

          • Dennis Frank

            But you didn't volunteer a personal opinion on how well their test operates. That's the obvious way to assess the merit of their framing. It printed me out precisely in the middle of Bernie Sanders' face. I commented here a couple of years ago that it merely confirms that I share typical leftist values. I've never been a socialist. So the site seems designed to ignore identity politics. Ignoring the primary way people act and think politically nowadays is silly…

            • alwyn

              " It printed me out precisely in the middle of Bernie Sanders' face".

              Is that what it is? I thought it was just a very pronounced birthmark.

            • OnceWasTim

              Not sure what I think at times. When I did it a few years ago I was damn near centre point – at a time when a lot of acquaintances would have been calling me a bleeding heart leftie. It looks like it was an attempt to try and map matters economic against social considerations – probably in light of all that 3rd Way shite that's still with us.

              Anyway, I'm only reluctant to comment at the mo 'cos I'm in the middle of tinkering with things mechanical (with greasy, oily paws and not wanting my keyboard to go buggerup)

          • Incognito

            Personally, I don’t think much of it. It is a tool designed to help voters to decide how to vote.


            It does not help me much with singular issues such as abortion, euthanasia, free speech, et cetera. It does not guide my thinking in any ways, shape, or form.

            It is also designed as a tool to increase voter engagement. But I don’t know that it really does achieve what it aims for. To me, it encourages you to align more with a party, and use heuristic labels to decide which tribe you want to belong to, i.e. your location on the ‘map’. Job done – two ticks (on the ballot form). I’d love to know how many people changed their party allegiance and voter pattern after doing the test. I’d say, not many. Others might feel confirmed in their engrained thinking and voting behaviour. Maybe so-called swing-voters are an interesting group to research in this context. Even more interesting would be the million or so non-voters.

            Parties are shown as distinct little dots on this political landscape as if they are or have fixed positions. IMO they should be large shapes that touch and overlap each other. Nothing is fixed anyway; politics and political (and personal) opinions are fluid and dynamic although not nearly as much as they perhaps should be. It would be interesting to see how party positions change over time on the ‘map’.

            The other issue I have with this ‘compass’ is that it reduces complex multi-dimensional and multi-factorial issues into two dimensions (I think the correct term is projection). This might make it easier for voters but it might hinder progressive politics and policies and public debate on those. Voters and the public need to be informed and educated so that they can think and decide for themselves (i.e. make informed decisions) rather than sheepishly following some party and/or party leader and then complain afterwards that it is not what they wanted. Worse, they defend that party or leader because they voted for them even though they had no clear idea of what they voted on and for and even though it was not what they wanted.

            Such are the downsides of party politics and the so-called representative democratic system as it stands IMHO.

        • Andre

          Then there's the difference between one's own values, and the positioning of who you end up voting for.

          In the NZ context, I'm really relieved there's the Greens I can vote for that are somewhat close to my political positioning (right in the middle of Political Compass' left/libertarian quadrant) and are likely to actually make it in to Parliament to represent something close-ish to my views.

          In US elections, any candidate close to my views hasn't got a hope in hell of actually winning a general election (except maybe in a handful of scattered House districts), so I have to try to judge who has the best balance of actually being electable and push some progress (however small) in a direction I'm ok with.

      • swordfish 12.1.2

        Absolutely … esp Intersectionals who seem to hold a deeply reductive (& strangely romanticised / paternalistic / 'Noble Savage') understanding of Māori … they appear to conceive of both Māori & Pasifika voters as monolithic blocs, all holding morally liberal views similar to themselves (ie the Intersectionals) … it’s beyond absurd …

        … But then the more dogmatic ID Politics activists do tend to emerge from an exclusive & socially distant Pakeha Upper-Middle Establishment (I suspect they don't actually meet Māori or Pasifikas until well into adulthood).

        In 2011, incidentally, Tariana Turia sought to appoint a conservative on abortion issues to the Abortion Supervisory Committee, the administrative body responsible for supervising the process. Labour and Green MPs unanimously opposed the amendment; National MPs were close to evenly split and the four ACT MPs voted against. New Zealand First had no parliamentary representation at the time.
        On top of the Party Support perspective …

        The key anti-Abortion demographics are:

        – Moral Authoritarians

        – Regular Churchgoers

        – Pasifika, Asian & (to a somewhat lesser extent) Māori ethnicities

        • marty mars

          Absolutely … esp Intersectionals who seem to hold a deeply reductive (& strangely romanticised / paternalistic / 'Noble Savage') understanding of Māori … they appear to conceive of both Māori & Pasifika voters as monolithic blocs, all holding morally liberal views similar to themselves (ie the Intersectionals) … it’s beyond absurd …

          lol wee bee in you wee bonnet there – the point of intersectionality imo is to NOT put people into monolithic blocks. Maybe this will help

          Definition of intersectionality

          : the complex, cumulative way in which the effects of multiple forms of discrimination (such as racism, sexism, and classism) combine, overlap, or intersectespecially in the experiences of marginalized individuals or groups


          of course if you are privileged and are not a marginalized individual or group then it is a bit hard to get your head around

    • roblogic 12.2

      Or, putting it another way (Good/Evil axis determined by economic policy; Lawful/Chaotic axis determined by abortion stance):

      Greens/IMP – Chaotic Good

      NZF – Lawful Good

      Labour/non-voters – Neutral Neutral

      Maori – Lawful Neutral

      Cons – Lawful Evil

      Nats/Act – Chaotic Evil

      • swordfish 12.2.1

        Dungeons & Dragons alignment ?

        Unfortunately, I was never part of that scene at College … basically (among the boys at what was a co-ed school) there were 3 essential sub-cultures:

        – the Māori / Pasifika lads who tended toward Rugby / Disco / Black American Sitcoms (here I am indulging in the same reductivism I've accused the Intersectionals of)

        – the Maths/Computer/Physics/Nerdy lads who spent every lunchtime playing heroic characters in D & D and tended to shy away from both sports & girlfriends (an unusually large number of lads with freckles in this particular sub-group)

        – the Soccer lads: who played both The Beautiful Game & a new sport they invented called Soccer-Tennis (like Tennis Doubles … only with a soccer ball & restricted to head & feet) & identified with higher quality UK comedy like Fawlty Towers & Python (this was before the Rik+Ade Comedies arrived)

        I was very solidly in the last of these groups (albeit still enjoying a good game of Rugger now & then).

        The pleasures of D & D eluded me.

        • Dennis Frank

          Interesting. My college years were '63-'67 inclusive, and there was only a single sub-culture: non-conformist. Me & a bunch of others. Everyone else conformed.

          • swordfish


            You were in the Fourth Form the year I was born.

            I can just imagine you proudly sporting a Beatles Mop-Top

            … and a baaad attitude to Kiwi Keith

            People tried to put you d-down (talkin’ ’bout your generation)

            … Just because you g-got aroun’ (talkin’ ’bout your generation)

            • Dennis Frank

              Actually Wanganui Boys ensured that no Beatles mop-tops grew on any of us, if my memory is correct. We gained a few millimetres by the time I left, then I uni I stopped cutting my hair. Aversion to Kiwi Keith didn't kick in till '69 because even the rebels were totally apolitical at college (the left were just as much establishment/mainstream as the right).

              • But just prior to that – there was that fella with the silly hat if memory serves – Sir Bernard, if you ever needed someone to ridicule. And there was also that mad hatter in charge of broadcasting who insisted on being referred to by his military rank

        • Sacha

          Bless. Geeky guys shying away from girlfriends rather than the more painful reverse. 🙂

      • xanthe 12.2.2


        Your analysis is complete bullshit, but I absolutely love it and find it illuminating

      • Stuart Munro. 12.2.3

        I think you may be missing that common alignment, chaotic stupid, it's very prevalent in some places.

  12. cleangreen 13

    smiley Yes good one there Roblogic.

  13. Peter 14

    Desperation seems to have set in to John Tamihere's mayoral campaign.

    His homelessness and begging policy has him creating an 0800 JACINDA hotline to call if residents see rough sleepers or beggars. He said a caller would find a "person all loving and caring that knows everything about your wellbeing" on the other end of the line and a social worker would then be sent to work with the beggar.

    No doubt the media releases have the usual official stuff on them about their authorisation.

    "Authorised by heading down the toilet John Tamihere, Desperate F'wit"? Oh well, it'll garner more attention for him than promising to walk naked over the Harbour Bridge if he doesn't win.

    • Sacha 14.1


      • greywarshark 14.1.1

        John Tamihere won't get any of my respect if he is suggesting that there should be a hotline as described above. I have decided that the word 'spiteful' is appropriate for those who are unempathetic and unsympathetic and uninformed about the reasons for the poor state of many NZs. I hadn't expected to apply that to JT but if the cap fits wear it.

  14. cleangreen 15

    John has a good idea to ban trucks in Auckland as it seems to be happening overeas now too.

    We look forward that plan spreading around NZ too as trucks emit ‘heavy (low frequency noise) (LFN) and vibrations that crack our home foundations and poison our air with jheavy pollution from several soures including exhaust brake and trye dust. All recognised as health risks.

    Whats to like about that when rail lies idle with no tyre dust and low pollution emissions.
    Hamburg becomes first German city to ban trucks and older diesel cars
    Move follows court ruling that cities breaching EU air quality limits must take action
    Move is on to ban diesel cars from cities
    A top German court has ruled cities can ban diesel cars on their own. DW looks at several places that have already started implementing similar plans to curb urban air pollution.

  15. reason 16

    About a week ago I made a post noting our nu New Zealander Peter Thiel … and his proximity to racist politicians … and Palantirs involvement with ICE raids / operation, targeting the 'invaders' …

    'Invaders' is how the President of the usa, along with white supremacist mass murderers,,, describe refugees or Muslims.

    Palantir describes them as a $40 Million plus contract …. $$$$$$$$

    The company Palantir appears to enter into some contracts which seem to be a melding of Dirty Politics with Dirty Business ….

    One contract ,,,,, was described by reporter and 'target' Glen Greenwald as ,,,

    an odious and quite possibly illegal scheme to target progressive activists and their families, threaten the careers of journalists as a means of silencing them, and fabricate forged documents intended for public consumption — and then steadfastly refuse to comment — is just inexcusable.


    HBGary Federal, Palantir, and Berico Technologies (collectively called Team Themis) — to develop tactics for damaging progressive groups and labor unions, in particular ThinkProgress, the labor coalition called Change to Win, the SEIU, US Chamber Watch, and StopTheChamber.com.

    New emails reveal that the private spy company investigated the families and children of the Chamber’s political opponents.

    The security firms hoped to obtain $200,000 for initial background research, then charge up to $2 million for a larger disinformation campaign against progressives.

    one proposal from HBGary Federal and its associates proposed targeting Salon reporter and Wikileaks-supporter Glenn Greenwald with “actions to sabotage or discredit” him.


    • Sacha 17.1

      You'll need more than a few letters to persuade anyone to watch that.

      • reason 17.1.1

        ICE as in …

        About a week ago I made a post noting our nu New Zealander Peter Thiel … and his proximity to racist politicians … and Palantirs involvement with ICE raids / operation, targeting the 'invaders' …

        'Invaders' is how the President of the usa, along with white supremacist mass murderers,,, describe refugees or Muslims.

        Palantir describes them as a $40 Million plus contract …. $$$$$$$$


        Palantir are not Peter Thiel … and visa versa of course …

        But out of his own mouth he compares usa teachers to bank tellers ,,,, literally as well as figuratively

        And Tax fairness seems to be a corporate rate of 10%-15% …. apparently.

        I'd put up the vids of his 'talks' on teachers & 'fair tax' … but three posts on this interesting nu new zealander previously had me labeled with the dreaded derangement diagnosis.

        My next post on elite Nzers ,,,, will be a dose of the Legatums…

        The Chandler Bro's ….Billionare Brexiters .. one funding the tory cuddling neo-Con 'think tank'…. Legabrex sarc

        trail blazers who went full cold war / red scare … before it became trendy again.

        • Incognito

          I'd put up the vids of his 'talks' on teachers & 'fair tax' … but three posts on this interesting nu new zealander previously had me labeled with the dreaded derangement diagnosis. [sic]

          No, you were asked to start your own comment threads. Thank you for being so understanding and obliging.

  16. joe90 18

    So, something hit Jupiter creating a fireball the size of Earth…


  17. greywarshark 19


    Capital in the 21st Century 2019

    Directed by Justin Pemberton Aotearoa

    A sweeping – and sobering – account of the way that concentrated wealth has both shaped our past and is creating a deeply unequal future. Based on economist Thomas Piketty’s bestselling book.

    Has Venues and Times in drop-down:


  18. joe90 20

    The Tory establishment are done pulling their punches.

    There is no getting away from it: this is a rightwing coup. I agree with Ferdinand Mount, once head of Margaret Thatcher’s policy unit at Downing Street in what now look like less disturbing times. Writing in the current London Review of Books, Mount sees echoes of Mussolini’s rise to power, in that “yes, [Johnson] has come to power by strictly constitutional means”; it is what happens after that matters, and the do-or-die approach of Johnson and his warlord Dominic Cummings is truly disturbing.

    As my former Observer colleague Neal Ascherson says in the same vintage issue of the LRB: “We have leading Tories – not only Johnson – apparently prepared to suspend a sovereign parliament in order to force through a Brexit meant to restore the sovereignty of parliament.”


    Ferdinand Mount

    Yes, this is a right-wing coup. It is duplicitous or self-deceiving to pretend that British politics is still proceeding more or less as normal. We are told that it is ‘hysterical’ to argue that Boris Johnson’s regime is in any way comparable to the nationalist dictatorships of yesterday or today. If this is a temptation, I shall happily succumb to it as a patriotic duty. By every standard of measurement, the Conservative Party has been transformed into Britain’s own BJP. ‘Optimism with a hint of menace’ was how the Sunday Times approvingly described Johnson’s first days in power – pretty much the way you might describe the first hundred days of Narendra Modi, or Donald Trump, or Benito Mussolini. Yes, he has come to power by strictly constitutional means. So did they all. It is how they govern when they get there that counts.


  19. joe90 21

    WTF is it with baby nazis and gyms?

  20. joe90 22

    Putin's thugs arresting opposition politician Lyubov Sobol.

  21. Muttonbird 23

    Bridges and Tamihere seem to be on the same page at least.

    Bridges tells Ihumatao protectors to 'go home', while Tamihere goes further. He will arrest the homeless for not…er…going home.



  22. Obtrectator 24

    I think I've commented already to the effect that BoJo's lot quite possibly don't actually believe in Brexit as an ideology. It's just a convenient train to hitch their wagon to – that wagon being a far-right takeover of the UK's institutions. This item from the Guardian appears to be consistent with the notion:


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