Open mike 11/09/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 11th, 2021 - 83 comments
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83 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2021 ”

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  1. Stuart Munro 1
    11 September 2021 at 6:57 am

    I cannot help but think that the Leader of the Opposition (such as it is) is in a similar position, with her attack on Siouxsie Wiles, as Cersei Lannister would have been had she entered a popularity contest with Margery Tyrel. Absent a significant alchemical stockpile, there is no way for an embittered and essentially useless rule breaker to land a criticism on a useful and broadly popular expert.

    • Gezza 1.1
      11 September 2021 at 7:23 am

      If Winston Peters attempts a Lazarus-like rise from the dead with dog-whistling public remarks and /or stunts over the coming months, & Seymour carries on doing the same thing, the Trumpian Territory will be very crowded & the right wing & redneck votes could well be so split they're not a serious challenge to this government.

      • Morrissey 1.1.1
        11 September 2021 at 9:08 am

        …the right wing & redneck votes…

        Please don't use that elitist putdown to denote bigotry.

        “Redneck” is the contemptuous term for working people used by Democratic Party mandarins in the 1970s to condemn the minority of working people who voted for Nixon. It’s been thoughtlessly recycled over the years, and was enthusiastically used by Clintonistas and Hopey-Changey cultists to besmirch white working people who they believed should vote for them by divine right.

        Think about who the most bigoted, racist, outrageous hatemongers in this country are: Don Brash, Jamie “Lock Up His Sisters” Whyte, Mike Hosking, David Seymour, Cameron “Whalefat” Slater, John Ansell, Garth “The Knife” McVicar. Only the last-named qualifies as a redneck, as he has actually done some physical work in his life.

        My grandfathers and my uncles all worked hard on farms and in factories, and they often got sunburned, including on their necks. They were and are rednecks, just like the hardworking men and women in the United States are. But I’ve never, ever heard any of them utter the brutal and heartless and ignorant rhetoric that we are inflicted with every day from comfortable, sedentary, white-collared, white-necked people like Brash and co.

        These hate-filled right wingers are not rednecks, they are bigots.

        • Gezza 1.1.1.1
          11 September 2021 at 9:30 am

          Good call. Sorry M. Thank you for the education & clarity about rednecks. The word will disappear from any future comments by me.

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2021 at 9:45 am

            Good on you Gezza, yoo're a champion.

          • Andre 1.1.1.1.2
            11 September 2021 at 10:19 am

            I recommend thoroughly checking any assertions made by Morrissey that might influence you. His reliability isn't the greatest.

            For instance, here's just one of the first hits on looking for the origin of the term "redneck":

            https://slate.com/culture/2019/12/redneck-origin-definition-union-uprising-south.html

            • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.2.1
              11 September 2021 at 10:23 am

              Thanks Andre. As your link shows, the elitist contempt for poor people certainly goes back a long way. It became particularly nasty after the Nixon election, though. The anger and bewilderment of the East Coast elite is evident in any issue of Time or Newsweek or the Village Voice from the 1970s.

              The anger at poor and ignorant whites got even crazier and more unhinged during Trump’s clownish four years.

              How am I "unreliable", exactly?

              Oh that's right. I didn't buy in to the Russia conspiracy nonsense that you and some others pushed for the last four years. How is that going by the way? How did that Mueller Report go?

          • Gezza 1.1.1.1.3
            11 September 2021 at 10:31 am

            Andre. Yes I've noted Morrissey's robust style & views & might not always agree or engage with his comments. But in this case, it reminded me that I have actually heard & seen the same explanation of the origin of rednecks before.

            It's an American derogatory term that doesn't really have a traditional equivalent in NZ. I have decided to not use it again in any context.

            • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.3.1
              11 September 2021 at 11:33 am

              Randy Newman's contemptuous and unfunny song "Rednecks" was a catalyst in the use of the term. Newman was a guest on Kim Hill's show a while ago: he was a dyed-in-the-wool Russiagate conspiracy theorist.

              • Anker …
                11 September 2021 at 11:43 am
                • Yeah, doesn’t surprise about Randy….he really had it in for the short people 😜
              • Gezza …
                11 September 2021 at 12:41 pm

                I like a lot of Randy Newman's songs, & his piano & vocal style. I've always perceived them as loaded with tongue-in-cheek irony & lyrics thus never to be taken at face value.

                I am surprised to hear he's a Russiagate conspiracy theorist, but he's not alone there. She's a hard road finding the perfect human being, M.

                His 1974 release Good Old Boys was a set of songs about the American South. "Rednecks" began with a description of segregationist Lester Maddox pitted against a "smart-ass New York Jew" on a TV show (this was a joke, because the "Jew" was Dick Cavett), in a song that criticizes both southern racism and the complacent bigotry of Americans outside of the south who stereotype all southerners as racist yet ignore racism in northern and midwestern states and large cities.

                This ambiguity was also apparent on "Kingfish" and "Every Man A King" the former a paen to Huey King the assassinated former Governor and US senator from Louisiana, the other a campaign song written by Long himself. An album that received lavish critical praise, Good Old Boys also became a commercial breakthrough for Newman, peaking at No. 36 on Billboard 200, spending 21 weeks there.

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Newman

                I like his song Birmingham, among others.

          • KJT 1.1.1.1.4
            11 September 2021 at 11:57 am

            Being a working class "redneck" and an ex "Westie" myself, that is appreciated.

        • Gezza 1.1.1.2
          11 September 2021 at 12:06 pm

          But I’ve never, ever heard any of them utter the brutal and heartless and ignorant rhetoric that we are inflicted with every day from comfortable, sedentary, white-collared, white-necked people like Brash and co.

          Don Brash I personally think is a little different from the others you mention. Yes he's certainly a class of racist as the term is not singularly applied to people who hate others of another skin colour or culture.

          Whenever I've watched or listened to him, my impression is that My-wife-is-from-Singapore-Don (subtext, so I can't be racist) has as his main thesis that "We are One people" & that Maori actually did sign up to surrender their tino rangatiratanga in Te Tiriti in their own nga rohe.

          The Kiwi Not Iwi campaign certainly was aimed directly at racists & those who feel threatened or angered by the resurgence of Maori cultural & political awareness & believe they are not owed anything. Even in the face of the obvious fact that the treaty was almost immediately abrogated by settler governments, & that they were ripped off, tricked, ruthlessly warred on & dispossessed nationwide of huge tracts of land there was never any doubt they hadn't legally sold, for legitimately resisting. And further that treaty settlements don't go anywhere near recompensing them for the real economic & social costs of their subjugation.

          Don, to me is a racist who is so blinkered he doesn't know he's a racist. He's permanently resistant to education on the matter because he can't comprehend that is. A sad figure.

          But I believe (or perhaps hope might be a better word) that by now most people in NZ, and certainly I wish those younger, who have been taught or have themselves just google-researched the history of the treaty & the settlement of New Zealand by Maori & Pakeha (even Wikipedia these days is getting to be very comprehensive & balanced) now see people like Don as a rather doddery old man whose attitude is myopically ill informed and well out of date.

    • Hongi 1.2
      11 September 2021 at 7:35 am

      Judith “pot calling the kettle black” with regards to comments about Souxie’s weight issues, Judith is not exactly an A List Model IMHO ?

      • Jester 1.2.1
        11 September 2021 at 10:43 am

        The media have of course focused on the word "fat" and used that to turn it against Judith and you have taken the bait 'hook, line and sinker'. If Judith had not used the word 'fat', the media would have emphasised the word 'big'. OMG….Judith called Siousxie big! Judith needs to be more careful with the language she uses.

        Seymour was smarter when he called James Shaw "a complete hypocrite".

        • Morrissey 1.2.1.1
          11 September 2021 at 11:23 am

          Seymour was smarter…

          Wrong. Seymour is not fit to talk about hypocrisy, or anything else for that matter.

        • Forget now 1.2.1.2
          11 September 2021 at 11:40 am

          Given that you are apparently incapable of providing links; Jester (it's the button that looks like a chainlink – just paste the URL), I fosacked this out of RNZ's archive.

          Shaw may be a bit of a grey suit man, but he's far less of a hypocrite than Seymour or Collins.

          "We don't have the option of a virtual COP. It's not been made available to us," he said.

          "There are negotiations that are happening online but the United Kingdom and the UNFCCC (United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change) feel that we're not going to be able to make the kind of progress that we need to make without some portion of it happening in person."…

          "I would prefer not to go, to tell you the honest truth. If I thought that I had some way to influence that, then I would. But I don't. It's not up to me .. also Glasgow in winter? Who needs that."

          "David Seymour and Judith Collins had the option of a virtual Parliament … they rejected that option because they wanted to be able to have in-person conferences like this one. Media conferences,"

          https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rnz.co.nz/article/52655a9d-7a34-4b39-bd83-8abf45abf697

  2. Gezza 2
    11 September 2021 at 7:33 am

    "The United Nations development agency says Afghanistan is teetering on the brink of “universal poverty” which could become a reality in the middle of next year unless urgent efforts are made to bolster local communities and their economies. It said the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan has put 20 years of steady economic gains at risk.
    …
    “Afghanistan pretty much faces universal poverty by the middle of next year,” Kanni Wignaraja, UNDP’s Asia-Pacific Director, told a news conference Thursday launching its 28-page assessment. “That’s where we’re heading — it’s 97-98% (poverty rate) no matter how you work these projections.”

    Currently, the poverty rate is 72% and Wignaraja pointed to many development gains after the Taliban were ousted from power in 2001: Per capita income more than doubled in the last 20 years, life expectancy at birth was extended by about nine years, the number of years of schooling rose from six to 10, “and we got women into university.”

    But she said Afghanistan now faces “a humanitarian and development disaster” resulting from political instability, frozen foreign reserves, a collapsed public finance system, “a crush on local banking because of this,” as well as the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic."
    …
    https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-pakistan-afghanistan-islamabad-qatar-d35bb246ad1db460b2a2e8d24c77f99d
    …
    And

    "The Taliban have issued an ominous warning to the United States after backlash from the international community surrounding the appointment of its interim Afghanistan "terrorist" government.
    …
    "…in a statement on Thursday night obtained by news.com.au, Mujahid slammed US officials for calling out cabinet members of the "Islamic State" – aka Afghanistan – and claimed they were in violation of the Doha agreement.

    "Pentagon officials have remarked that some cabinet members of the Islamic Emirate or family members of late Haqqani Sahib – may Allah be pleased with him – are on the US blacklists and still targets," the statement reads.

    … the group claimed any leaders in the new government under the Doha agreement meant any "blacklists" should have been wiped.

    …"all officials of the Islamic Emirate without any exception were part of interaction with the US and should have been removed from the UN and US blacklists, a demand which still remains valid.

    "That America and other countries are making such provocative statements and trying to meddle the internal affairs of Afghanistan, the Islamic Emirate condemns it in the strongest terms. "Such remarks by US officials are a repetition of past failed experiments and such positions detrimental for America.

    "We urge that these incorrect policies be immediately reversed through diplomatic interactions."
    …
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/taliban-releases-statement-saying-united-states-is-in-clear-violation-over-terrorist-comments/Y5QEQXEITJO5TKBDFCAA2MOT64/

    It's like some tragic, truly awful black comedy unfolding. Just seems like a hopeless situation for the Afghan population.

    • garibaldi 2.1
      11 September 2021 at 8:38 am

      Yes Gezza, it is indeed a hopeless situation for the Afghans. The USA is not finished with interfering in Afghanistan. They will foment ( and fund and militarily support) as much trouble as they can to bring unwanted problems to both Russia and China because that is all they are interested in to try and prove they are "exceptional and the indispensable nation”. They don't give a damn about the people of Afghanistan and they never have. Same same as Vietnam and all their other "conquests”. I will go so far as to say they would rather destroy the world than lose their "anglo/american " empire. Such is the madness and nature of their military /industrial complex.

      • Gezza 2.1.1
        11 September 2021 at 8:55 am

        Yes, I agree. One of the good things about Trump, I thought, was that he was such an outrageously gung ho "America First, Everywhere" Amerika uber alles ultra-nationalist bully, he made it abundantly clear that nobody else anywhere registers on the minds of so many America's politicians & voters as having any worth beyond what they can do for Americans.

        And he publicly abandoned the claim to be "leader of the free world". I thought it woke a few people up.

        Biden has gone back to the old script of claiming that title.

      • Bearded Git 2.1.2
        11 September 2021 at 10:37 am

        Interesting Pakistani expert/intellectual on Kim Hill (RNZ) right now saying the USA was doing well in Afghanistan until it invaded Iraq, then they lost focus and support and it all fell apart.

        Of course it doesn't help that the regime they installed was corrupt.

        • Morrissey 2.1.2.1
          11 September 2021 at 10:47 am

          The idea they were "doing well" in Afghanistan is as fraudulent as the rationale for attacking it in the first place.

          • Ad 2.1.2.1.1
            11 September 2021 at 12:34 pm

            You could at least warn us of the long Fox intro, then the Tucker Carlson intro, before you get to words out of Mr Greenwald that are so predictable that they come out as a set of Leftie Grump Hallmark Cards.

            For real 20-year-hindsight analysis from the people who made the decisions on the day and in the weeks afterwards, try this long form interview piece:

            https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/10/9-11-attacks-20th-anniversary-reassessing-20-years-of-war-506924

            It covers:

            – Ambassador John Negroponte, General Richard Myers, Frances Townsend, Admiral James Stafridis, Douglas Feith, John McLaughlin, General David Petraeus, Michael Chertoff, Andrew Card, Senator Tom Daschle, Ambassador Karl Eikenberry, Joshua Bolten, Paul Wolfowitz, Senator Trent Lott, Ambassador Paul Bremer, Dan Bartlett, and Senator Joseph Liebermann.

            • RedLogix 2.1.2.1.1.1
              11 September 2021 at 12:46 pm

              Good looking link. Thanks.

              At about the fifth para in we get this:

              But that fact has often been used as a blanket justification for many of the most far-reaching, controversial and even harmful decisions made in the aftermath of the attacks — the vast expansion of the surveillance state; covert operations to kill or capture suspected terrorists, and in some cases torture them; and the invasion first of Afghanistan, where the attacks were planned, and then Iraq, where they were not.

              It's been said that the Americans believe that if something is worth doing it's always worth overdoing. Well after 20yrs in Afghanistan – that benighted land that God uses to teach the powerful some humility – maybe it's time they learned this was never more than a dangerous hubris.

              And that perhaps moderation is the smartest strategy in the room after all.

              PS on scrolling down – it looks like required reading.

            • Morrissey 2.1.2.1.1.2
              11 September 2021 at 2:51 pm

              For real 20-year-hindsight analysis from the people who made the decisions…

              Thanks for that Ad. What a collection of ghouls. Most of them are criminals, who should be behind bars, not enjoying sinecures at universities and extremist "think tanks", but a few of them come across as simply pathetic—like Tom Daschle, who admits to being browbeaten into supporting the aggression, Paul Bremer, who seems to be genuinely delusional, and Joe Lieberman who, as always, just seems sad.

              It's a horrible article, a PR puff piece, but it's also darkly funny, and a perfect example of the way these crooks are packaged and presented by their media accomplices. Each one of them has been beautifully photographed in striking black and white. The pictures are similar in style to Annie Leibowitz's shots of celebrities for Vanity Fair and Rolling Stone. They have the effect of making these people appear sober, respectable, and serious.

              I'm sure that I'm not the only person to be offended that the author of this shambles calls these monsters "architects of the post-9/11 world", as if they had built something instead of conspiring to destroy a country and kill millions of people. My favourite quotes are…

              “Nations are like people. They get some things right, they get some things wrong.” — Admiral Stavridis

              "Once you get into nation-building, you get into pacification….We thought it was going to be a cakewalk and it turned out to be a pretty nasty fight when we got in there."–John Negroponte. angry

              “Over the years, we just took out leader after leader and some of these that are overlooked were vastly more important than people realize…. The agency and JSOC responded incredibly and carried out just innumerable operations. The problem is that so much of this is colored because of the enhanced interrogation techniques usage that was part and parcel of that CIA effort.”—Gen. Petraeus

              “We should have not authorized the use of military force but we did. The administration was really pressing us to get it done before the [2002] election. I have regrets about how that was done. I think many, if not most people, share those regrets today. The costs in lives and treasure that we have experienced both in Afghanistan and Iraq as a result of those actions are ones that we all have to take some responsibility for.”— Sen. Tom Daschle

              “I think we should have asked more about, ‘OK, where are these weapons of mass destruction? How can we deal with that? How can we destroy them?’ I’ve always felt like I didn’t raise enough questions about the intelligence. … I hope that in the future our leaders will be aggressive in dealing with the administration, with the presidents. Don’t just take their word for it. Try to have more input.” —Senator Trent Lott

              • KJT …
                11 September 2021 at 9:15 pm

                How mass killings by US forces after 9/11 boosted support for the Taliban | Afghanistan | The Guardian

                <<“I am very happy the American forces have finally left Afghanistan, and very grateful to Allah for making this happen. At last I feel safe.”

                Those murders were perhaps the most high-profile civilian deaths of the war. But it was not the only time foreign forces killed large numbers of women, children and non-combatant men, in just this one corner of a single district of Afghanistan.

                Five men from Zangabad who spoke to the Guardian said they lost 49 relatives between them in airstrikes and the massacre, bloodshed spanning nearly a decade. These terrible losses, repeated in many parts of Afghanistan, would prove powerful recruiting tools for the Taliban, as they slowly gathered their forces to retake the country. >>

              • Adrian Thornton …
                12 September 2021 at 9:12 am

                Thanks for that Morrissey…always good to have a bit clear eyed analysis run over these propaganda pieces…you would think these guys would be able to see through such obvious nonsense, but I guess you see what you want to see…

                "“Overreach” is a word they use often to describe a nation-building effort that notched tactical and even historic successes — like empowering women in Afghanistan"…I mean come on..really?

        • Gezza 2.1.2.2
          11 September 2021 at 1:09 pm

          Bang on, BG. Wherever they've invaded countries or got involved in their wars since 9/11 (and before) to "save" the local people from their "dreadful" rulers & bring the light of American culture & democracy & technology & corporations to rescue them from their "backwardness", they've slaughtered thousands of ordinary troops legitimately defending their country – & killed more innocent civilians in the local populations [directly or indirectly, thru the aftermaths, like Islamic State] than their despotic rulers ever did.

          They've utterly stuffed their economies, ramped up sectarianism, installed incompetent or incoherent governments rife with corruption & instability, changed the balance of power, & in the Middle East either directly or indirectly been responsible for the total or near total destruction of whole cities & towns & their infrastructure.

          And they remain blithely unconcerned & seemingly convinced they did them all a favour.

    • Jenny how to get there 2.2
      11 September 2021 at 9:35 am

      Taliban releases statement saying United States is in 'clear violation' over terrorist comments

      [and they are]

      Matt Young – news.com.au, 10 Sep, 2021

      "That America and other countries are making such provocative statements and trying to meddle the internal affairs of Afghanistan, the Islamic Emirate condemns it in the strongest terms. "Such remarks by US officials are a repetition of past failed experiments and such positions detrimental for America."

      "We urge that these incorrect policies be immediately reversed through diplomatic interactions."
      Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid
      …
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/taliban-releases-statement-saying-united-states-is-in-clear-violation-over-terrorist-comments/Y5QEQXEITJO5TKBDFCAA2MOT64/

      In contrast to the above, the Taliban have praised New Zealand by name for continuing our aid to the Afghan people.

      The Biden administration and the Western Alliance are continuing the war by other means.

      New Zealand should refuse to take part.

      The Biden administration's vindictive, (and pointless), war by other means, inevitably resulting in economic collapse and mass famine in Afghanistan, cannot but help foster political instability across the region and fuel terrorist reprisals against the West.

      New Zealand must have no part in the US war by other means, and continue our humanitarian aid to the Afghan people.

      Taliban heaps praise on New Zealand over $3 million humanitarian donation

      "New Zealand has been the first, the leading country, as it has always been during humanitarian causes, has been the leading country to announce humanitarian aid to the Afghan people."…
      …."I would like to say as a representative of the people of Afghanistan, I would like to immensely thank the people of New Zealand and the Government of New Zealand for showing empathy with their fellow human beings,"

      Abdul Qahar Balkhi speaking to Charlotte Bellis

      http://nighthawk.nz/index.php/4944-taliban-heaps-praise-on-new-zealand-over-3-million-humanitarian-donation

      • Gezza 2.2.1
        11 September 2021 at 9:58 am

        I watch Aljazeera tv news daily. It's an excellent global news media service that covers events happening all over the world, covering countless daily events in counries we never see even mentioned in NZ msm online & tv media.

        Charlotte has built personal connections wirh the Taliban leadership, and when she is accosted or insulted by the Kabul footsoldiers who are brutally suppressing women protesting [the Taliban have banned protests & inappropriate reporting], or they refuse to talk to her because she is a woman and is "inapproriately dressed" she complains to them & they usually apologise, she reports.

        https://finance.yahoo.com/video/afghan-journalists-were-beaten-taliban-155623974.html

  3. Pete George 3
    11 September 2021 at 8:11 am

    So it's Dirty Politics deja vu.

    Cameron Slater posts some surveillance footage of Siouxsie Wiles on The BFD, makes extravagant claims and accusations and what appear to be false claims, but gets no traction.

    So he passes the DP baton to David Farrar who repeats and tries to give the story some semblance of reasonable analysis that appears tainted by taking Slater at his word. And there's the expected pile on on Kiwiblog.

    There's two attack lines – the alleged hypocrisy of Wiles (Slater accusing someone of hypocrisy is rather cute), and blasting the media for not repeating and amplifying Slater's 'scoop'.

    Someone in the media does ask questions at the high profile daily Covid media presentation, and Wiles generally does a good job of explaining that she was more or less abiding by the rules but concedes her companion breached rules by going for a swim – if that was a general member of the public it's unlikely anyone would have noticed let alone cared, but those preach strict compliance should be held to account when they don't do what they implore of others.

    Then Judith Collins joins the fray, seemingly already well versed in the Slater attack and making intemperate and tone deaf comments about Wiles. I can only guess that this was a deliberate approach by Collins, but it re-emphasises her unsuitability as a leader of a party that needs mainstream support.

    And it realigns her with Slater and Dirty Politics, something that will likely not work out well for her.

    And back to the original source this morning it's obviously not just Slater involved. The 'editor' of The BFD, Juana Atkins, has carried on with the smearing of Wiles. Atkins has long been as complicit as Slater in the dirty BFD tactics – in fact it seems likely it only continues now due to her efforts to keep it going.

    But bringing Farrar into the mix and then Collins piling in as well has effectively dragged the National Party back into the centre of Dirty Politics, something they could ill afford to happen given their deteriorating situation.

    Our politics is the poorer for a dysfunctional ex-major party and for the resurrection of Dirty Politics.

    • Gezza 3.1
      11 September 2021 at 8:32 am

      Hi Pete. Missing your blog & hope you're enjoying doing the other things you wanted to get on with.

      Good summary.

      I can't access the BFD on this iPad2; it's too "busy" & continually crashes once I open more than one article there. Just as well though. The BFD's just a parody. Have they even got much of an audience these days?

      I sometimes read Kiwiblog but note that it seems to be mainly disgruntled National commenters & the slinging off at “Cindy” & “Jacinderella” etc lowers the tone too much for my taste. It crashes a lot on this iPad2 as well, as the comments start to build up.

    • dv 3.2
      11 September 2021 at 8:49 am

      We must not forget what Collins said about Wiles

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/collins-calls-dr-siouxsie-wiles-big-fat-hypocrite

      National Party leader Judith Collins has called one of New Zealand's top microbiologists Dr Siouxsie Wiles "a big, fat hypocrite"

      And remember who traveled to wellington from lev 4 Auckland because she was/is (HUH) an ‘essential worker.

    • Pete 3.3
      11 September 2021 at 9:19 am

      Serious National party people will be shaking their heads that Collins is prepared to get into the sewer with Slater and Atkins. Collins will need to try to scrape the mess off the bottom of her shoes but the smell that had subsided is back.

      The most pertinent aspect of the incident is that it shows in full flourish who and what Collins is. The age old-timers will be asking, "How did it get to this? Is this who we are? Is this as good as it gets?"

      • Morrissey 3.3.1
        11 September 2021 at 9:24 am

        Serious National party people will be shaking their heads…

        ?????

        Could you provide us with one example of a "serious National party" person?

        • Forget now 3.3.1.1
          11 September 2021 at 10:49 am

          Finlayson seems deadly serious in his contempt for the current management of his old firm. Whether he still counts as a Nat is another matter, but he'll always be a Tory to me.

          “Political parties have to feel the cold blast of opposition before they acquire the humility to be in government again. But if you're asking me to express sympathy for them, forget it.”

          https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300345221/national-party-is-selfdestructing-former-minister-says

          • Morrissey 3.3.1.1.1
            11 September 2021 at 10:55 am

            He's a bright and amusing commentator. I was wrong to suggest that they're all hopeless–they're not. And after they leave parliament, they're often very nice.

          • Ad 3.3.1.1.2
            11 September 2021 at 11:03 am

            Finlayson's version of treaty settlements (for which he has nothing but praise for himself) has largely delivered a very, very narrow Maori middle class based on property rights. If all you want out of a Settlement is to mirror the worst of capitalism, then all you want is the National Party.

            • KJT 3.3.1.1.2.1
              11 September 2021 at 12:03 pm

              It was telling that he considers "Property Rights" are second only to the "right to life".

              As we have seen many times, "Property Rights" are most often the rights of the "overlords' to hang onto the commons they originally stole.

              Rather Ironic when we are talking about Maori land rights.

              It worked to get the Maori "elite" invested in supporting a capitalist ruling class however.

            • Bearded Git 3.3.1.1.2.2
              11 September 2021 at 1:17 pm

              Yes every time Finlayson is on The Panel (RNZ) he appears to be a legend in his own mind.

        • Stuart Munro 3.3.1.2
          11 September 2021 at 4:22 pm

          I think the stages of National Party people go something like:

          minor, mild, moderate, serious, acute, and morbid.

          They have a bit of a surplus on the extreme right atm – goes with the territory.

          • Patricia Bremner 3.3.1.2.1
            11 September 2021 at 7:39 pm

            Stuart Munro.. A bit like covid then?

            • Stuart Munro 3.3.1.2.1.1
              11 September 2021 at 8:22 pm

              Covid is a very tricky virus – the Gnats seem to be less evolved – more primitive – an ancient species that has outlived its time and is now chiefly of interest to paleontologists and cryptozoologists.

    • Incognito 3.4
      11 September 2021 at 8:24 pm

      DP was always a bit like a 4-wheel drive in wet mud with all wheels spinning fast until one of them got some traction. It was never pretty and it was always dirty. Lately, the Leaders of the National and ACT Parties, the Crusher turned La Cheffe Fatale and the Dancer turned Cockwomble, respectively, have been hustling for the driver’s seat and the media love nothing better than a reality demolition derby. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the NZ political scene at its finest.

  4. Jenny how to get there 4
    11 September 2021 at 8:17 am

    '

    All politics is pressure:

    Biden withdraws pick to run firearms agency after NRA pressure

    NRA hails withdrawal of nomination as ‘critical win’

    Richard Luscombe – The Guardian, 9 Sep. 2021

    …..The gun reform group Brady says Biden’s decision to bow to National Rifle Association (NRA) pressure and withdraw his nominee, a strong gun control advocate, to lead the agency enforcing federal firearms laws is “a shameful day for our country”.

    …..“He would have been an exemplary director of the ATF and would have redoubled its efforts to crack down on illegal firearms traffickers and help keep our communities safe from gun violence,” Biden’s statement said.

    …..In its own statement, the NRA hailed it as “a critical win”, claiming that Chipman’s work with Giffords seeking to tighten gun laws “posed a grave threat to the second amendment”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/09/david-chipman-atf-biden-nomination-withdrawal-nra

    • Gezza 4.1
      11 September 2021 at 3:29 pm

      Sadly, guns are there to stay in the US. The gun lobby owns too many politicians in both the Democrat & Republican parties.

  5. Adrian Thornton 5
    11 September 2021 at 8:29 am

    As we all know or at least are lead to believe if you listen or watch any western media, white western lives and most especially white American lives have a lot more value than any other lives around the world….so as we are force feed a serious amount of air time around the USA's 9/11, for a bit of balance here is a bit of historical context as to why most of the world see the USA as the biggest threat to world peace….here is Chile's own 9/11 which through direct US intervention brought in a reign of terror, death, torture, rape ..which of course is never remembered by western media…but as I said they are not white westerners..so who cares.

    Chile’s🇨🇱 9/11: The Augusto Pinochet Coup- How The USA Brought Neoliberal Fascism To Chile

  6. Herodotus 6
    11 September 2021 at 9:09 am

    A little of respect for nature, and to see how wonderful and enterprising Bruce is. Brought a smile in this current time when a smile can make wonders to someones state of mind.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/disabled-kea-at-willowbank-wildlife-reserve-uses-stone-to-preen-himself/V6A24KRMK6ZZE7SA3ZQMVOR5GE/

  7. Gezza 7
    11 September 2021 at 9:33 am

    "Just months earlier, Shaakir drove to the maximum-security Auckland Prison. After weaving through a labyrinth of guard posts and gates, he was led into a special unit for prisoners of “extreme risk” – a unit originally built to house the gunman behind the Christchurch terror attack.

    In a secure meeting room, Shaakir sat face-to-face with [the Lynnmall attacker], a 31-year-old obsessed with violent, terror-inspired content. From behind a solid pane of glass, Shaakir tried to make a connection.

    “Although he didn’t know me from a bar of soap, he was really excited to sit with me. He was very calm, and we had a good discussion. I tried to get inside his mind to understand how he had been radicalised, and how I could assist and rehabilitate him.”

    Shaakir wasn’t the only Muslim leader who believed [S] needed help to rewrite his radical beliefs. Three years earlier, Auckland barrister Aarif Rasheed tried to persuade authorities to do exactly that.

    “They had characterised [S] as a terrorist sympathiser,” says Rasheed. “However, he was the first to admit his lack of Islamic knowledge, and he was willing to learn. With the right support, we had the chance to get this guy on the right path.”
    …
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126332093/the-makings-of-a-terrorist–and-the-people-who-tried-to-help-him
    …
    Superb article, & lots of information about the LynnMall attacker & his situation. One hopes the latest teenager who's been charged with making statements about wanting to kill non-Muslims can be assisted by Imam Shakir & that work can be done to develop and integrate a proper personal plan for de-radicalisation with the Courts, Corrections, Police & Muslim community working together.

  8. Forget now 8
    11 September 2021 at 10:07 am

    This sounds like a lot of submissions – something like 2% of the population. Though a lot of them may be cut and paste sock puppets. Anyone here know the usual amount of submissions to an NZ government ?

    The Government is considering over 100,000 submissions on a prohibition of conversion therapy bill

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300403159/hate-shame-and-redemption-the-road-back-from-conversion-therapy

  9. Morrissey 9
    11 September 2021 at 11:18 am

    "I just wanna talk about the response to the attacks, the War on Terror and that kind of stuff."

    A.M. Show, Newshub, TV3, Friday 10 September 2021, 7:15 a.m.

    Ryan Bridge, Amanda Gillies, Mark Richardson

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2021/09/9-11-anniversary-new-york-firefighters-describe-moment-towers-collapsed-impact-of-attacks-20-years-on.html

    The dreary ritual of politicians and media figures looking and sounding sad about the attacks on 11 Sept. 2001, and ignoring any political explanations for them, began in earnest yesterday morning. On TVNZ1, John Campbell interviewed an ex-Clinton staffer who looked mournful and said that today she would be reflecting on the power of memory. Campbell mirrored her sad expression and thanked her profusely for talking to him.

    On TV3, the special guests were two former New York firefighters, Captain Peter Hayden and his deputy Jay Jones. Following are the highlights of Ryan Bridge's interview with them—if "highlights" is the word for such a dire few minutes.

    Along the bottom of the screen the chyron informs viewers: "PETER AND JAY WALKED OUT OF THE RUBBLE TOGETHER."

    DEPUTY CHIEF JAY JONAS: Today is always going to be tied to, uh, ahhh, grief and bereavement.

    (Almost instantaneously the chyron at the bottom of the screen changes. "JONAS: TODAY IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE TIED TO GRIEF AND BEREAVEMENT.")

    The two ex-firefighters speak at length about the horror they experienced. Then it's time for Ryan Bridge to move the interview along a bit…

    RYAN BRIDGE: Jay, I just wanna talk about the response to the attacks, the War on Terror and that kind of stuff. How do you feel about the response George Bush made?

    DEPUTY CHIEF JAY JONAS: Uh, I don't know that I'm qualified to comment on that. I'm a firefighter. But I was happy to see the aggressive response to this horrible event. angrynonono

    ……

    RYAN BRIDGE: It was incredible, absolutely incredible. I was thirteen at the time and I don't have much to say.

    (Twenty minutes later, it's time to ask another guest to reflect on the events of Sept. 11th.)

    RYAN BRIDGE: It's one of those occasions isn't it where you always remember where you were. Helen Clark joins us for her take next…

    (A commercial break ensues, and then the screen is filled with the grave mien of the former prime minister, beaming in via Skype from Paeroa.)

    RYAN BRIDGE: It's the evilness you feel, isn't it.

    HELEN CLARK: Yes, and evil is the appropriate word.

    RYAN BRIDGE: And of course the world changed forever. How do you feel about the response, Helen?

    HELEN CLARK: [pause] I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing. …. Iraq distracted attention away from Afghanistan, which needed long term investment. There was some indication that the Taliban were amenable to a political solution, but this was completely rejected by the Americans. [snickers]

    (Then the sports guy decides, unwisely, to speak.)

    MARK RICHARDSON: There have been no more attacks on American soil by Islamic militants. So the Americans would say it was a success. Do you agree?

    HELEN CLARK: No. No I don't.

    (Ryan Bridge and Amanda Gillies visibly squirm in embarrassment.)

    ad nauseam….

    "Ryan is a truly exciting broadcaster who is perfectly suited to a dynamic morning show. He flawlessly pivots from conducting hard-hitting interviews to sharing engaging and entertaining anecdotes, driven by his innate curiosity and genuine desire to connect with his audiences."—SARAH BRISTOW, Newshub "Director of News"

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2021/09/ryan-bridge-confirmed-as-new-host-of-the-am-show.html

    • Ad 9.1
      11 September 2021 at 11:29 am

      Do you have a point you want to make? Spit it out.

      • Morrissey 9.1.1
        11 September 2021 at 11:36 am

        Sure. The point is that Ryan Bridge is a shallow and ill-informed person and is not fit to front a television discussion about such a serious event.

        In other words, he's almost a carbon copy of his horrible predecessor, Duncan "Vyshinsky" Garner.

        • Ed 9.1.1.1
          11 September 2021 at 11:38 am

          Agreed, Morrissey.

          Your transcript, as ever, demonstrates how ill-informed significant sections of our media are.

          By comparison, Double Down News actually adds context to the event.
          In this 12 minute clip ‘ The One Thing They Don’t Tell You About Terrorism’ Mark Curtis provides the context that we rarely hear. The video refers to the US and the UK’s actions in Iran and Egypt back in the 1950s.

          Best of all is Adam Curtis’s ‘The Power of Nightmares.’ if you have the time. Brilliant documentary with an outstanding soundtrack and amazing footage.

          • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2021 at 11:50 am

            Thank you for that, Ed. I endorse your opinion of that excellent site.

            Another superb analyst of contemporary politics is Mark Curtis. Interestingly, he is rigorously excluded from British state media.

            http://markcurtis.info/

            • Ed 9.1.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2021 at 3:01 pm

              The DDN news reporter is Mark Curtis.

              I suggest you will have to look and hard in the official narratives from New Zealand, the US and the UK to hear about World Trade Centre 7 Building.

              It is predictable to see what detail is omitted in the reporting.

          • Gezza 9.1.1.1.2
            11 September 2021 at 3:01 pm

            Interesting & very good. I know all this stuff already. It hasn't really dawned on me how important it is that most people, and politicians, in NZ don't.

            Even when we get an ideal opportunity for the media here – like the 9/11 anniversary, the Lynnmall attack, & the stunning but potentially catastrophic victory of the Taliban – to post that video in an in-depth news article, or show something like that documentary on the Sunday tv1 programme, (which is about the only documentary programme we seem to have that takes offshore media content of any length) instead our media are focussed on often comparatively trivial, magazine-style content & purely local issues.

            It's a good way of instructing the wider population where these these attacks have come from & why their aftermaths really happen. We need to steer clear of engaging with these kinds of enterprises.

            This covert & sometimes overt US & NATO support for certain Islamic extremist or fundamentalist groups against others, or less than wholesome regimes expriencing insurrections that could undermine US & EU investments, I believe is still going on in places like Libya & other countries.

        • Ad 9.1.1.2
          11 September 2021 at 12:24 pm

          Our MSM media have been exceptionally restrained on 9/11 today.

          New Zealand certainly does have specific commentary to add on terrorist acts within our country. If it felt inclined to do so.

          ATM they are largely confining themselves to the Christchurch ceremony with our firefighters that helped in the recovery effort.

          • Morrissey 9.1.1.2.1
            11 September 2021 at 1:53 pm

            Our MSM media have been exceptionally restrained on 9/11 today.

            Agreed. Although, unfortunately for aficionados of the bizarre, Ryan Bridge's dullness and Mark Richardson's stupidity are no substitute for the full-blown madness of the Saatchi headman Kevin Roberts when he made his notorious appearance on a TV3 chat show twenty years ago.

            https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04122016/#comment-1269709

        • rod 9.1.1.3
          11 September 2021 at 4:50 pm

          Quite right Morrisey. One right wing Puppet walks away from the am show, and the the bloke who takes his place is, and you've guessed it is. just another right wing Puppet. Newshub the voice of the National Party.

  10. Gypsy 10
    11 September 2021 at 12:04 pm

    And for today's good news story

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2021/09/stan-walker-shares-emotional-look-at-his-wedding-day-in-music-video-for-new-te-reo-m-ori-song-matemateaone.html

    All the best to them. Stan has fought some fights in his young life – I truly hope he has found happiness.

  11. Fireblade 11
    11 September 2021 at 2:14 pm

    New Covid-19 community cases reported today in New Zealand and Australia.

    Auckland: 23

    NSW: 1,599

    Victoria: 450

    ACT: 15

    Queensland: 5

    Tasmania: 0

    SA and WA not yet reported.

    • Gypsy 11.1
      11 September 2021 at 4:39 pm

      It will be interesting to see the direction Queensland go in, because they experienced their Delta spike around a month before us. They have a population around 3x the size of Auckland, have had lower daily case numbers than Auckland over the spike, and their current daily numbers are lower.

      • Koff 11.1.1
        11 September 2021 at 9:01 pm

        Queensland has used the same elimination techniques as NZ for each Covid outbreak to date, including the 2 recent Delta outbreaks. (so did Victoria and ACT, but lockdown weariness/lack of compliance has affected Victoria much more than Qld). So far, so good, but Qld has a long border with NSW which is intent on "living with Covid" at levels of vaccination, the wisdom of which is disputed by different "experts." Its hard to see how Qld can keep Delta out for much longer and as elsewhere the race is on to vaccinate as many people as possible and do what can be done to control any leakages.

  12. Chris T 12
    11 September 2021 at 3:20 pm

    Sorry for the odd post. But it has defuddled me a bit, as still don't quite believe it.

    I was in the supermarket yesterday. Was looking at tomatoes.

    You know those plastic tray things you buy with about 8 in for $3.99 ish?

    $10 *****ing dollars. I mean WTF?

    • Janet 12.1
      11 September 2021 at 3:45 pm

      Possibly a seasonal thing. Our warm damp Autumn wiped my total crop out in less than a week, probably wasn,t the only one. Also guess what same thing happened in Switzerland this year – most of the early summer commercial tomato crops wipe out by fungus too !

  13. Jenny how to get there 13
    11 September 2021 at 5:33 pm

    Will Auckland stay at level 4 for another week?

    The answer; 'Unfortunately' is, Yes.*

    …What are 'unlinked sub-clusters', and should we be concerned about them?

    Katie Kenny – Stuff.co.nz, Sep 11 2021

    ….Unfortunately, unlinked sub-clusters and mystery cases make it hard for the Government to be able to confidently lower alert levels without compromising the goal of eliminating Covid-19 from the community.

    Experts agree the missing links could mean the difference between Auckland remaining at level 4 lockdown or shifting to level 3 next week….

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126348765/covid19-what-are-unlinked-subclusters-and-should-we-be-concerned-about-them

    *(That is if the government doesn't abandon their elimination strategy. And I can't see that happening.)

    This unfortunately will mean more hardship for many small businesses and retailers and householders.

    Let us hope that at Monday’s presser the PM will be able to announce some new relief strategies.

    I am hoping for a rent and mortgage moratorium. (Let the banksters share some of the pain).

  14. Jenny how to get there 14
    11 September 2021 at 9:26 pm

    Lockdown a 'small taste' of World War II hardship, Auckland Mayor says

    Kendall Hutt and Josephine Franks – Stuff.co.nz, Apr 02 2020

    "We're getting a small taste of what our grandparents and parents went through during World War II and the Depression, so try not to just complain.

    "We need to say 'Hey, this is what it is and if we work together we will get through it'."

    ….there were people doing it harder than others: pregnant women and new mums, people grieving for loved ones, families living in overcrowded conditions.

    "It's about thinking of all those people," he said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120754878/coronavirus-lockdown-a-small-taste-of-world-war-ii-hardship-auckland-mayor-says

    Auckland's Mayor is right to invoke the memory of the Great Depression and the World War.

    The government is spilling red ink all over the place, record numbers of Auckland families are queuing for food parcels. In the midst of this crisis, the banksters are still transfering hundreds of millions out of our pockets, and out of the country in the form of mortgage payments. (We all pay mortgages, renters are just paying someone else's).

    Auckland Mayor Phil Goff compares the experience of our Grandparents generation during the World War and the Great Depression to the current crisis and hardship being experienced by this generation due to the Covid crisis.

    Of course there are many differences, one of the biggest difference between then and now, is how little of the current hardship is being shouldered by the top end of town. During the war, in line with the Labour Government policy of conscripting wealth as well as Labour, the top tax rate on the richest New Zealanders was set at 90%.

    During the Great Depression, to ease the burden of the crisis on ordinary New Zealanders, a moratorium on mortgages was enacted.

    To ease the burden of the lockdown on ordinary New Zealanders, (especially if it neccessary to go on for much longer) the Current Labour Government can look back to the precedents of the past and declare a nationwide Mortgage Moratorium. (We all pay mortgages, renters just pay someone else's). Just as it was in the pass the Mortgage Moratorium legislation would be mandated, that landlords pass on mortgage relief to their tenants.

    If there was anything could earn this goverrnment the love of farmers, and undercut farmers support for the right wing Groundswell movement, and the National Party, it would be mortgage relief.

    …..by 1931, it was clear that further intervention was necessary to prevent widespread foreclosures and mortgagee sales. Although some of the measures taken applied to all mortgagors, this paper is concerned only with those that were of direct concern to farmers. Mortgage relief for farmers was explicit or implicit in more than a dozen pieces of legislation passed between 1931 and 1936 as successive governments tried to cope with the worsening crisis…..

    …..The modification of mortgage conditions was not new in New Zealand. A 'mortgage moratorium' had been imposed as a war measure in 1914

    ….Although mortgage relief was frequently discussed at some length by
    contemporary commentators, and by some historians in the 1950s and
    1960s, it has been relegated to a few lines at most in more recent works.'

    The Mortgagors and Tenants Further Relief Act, 1932, gave new rights to mortgagors. Whereas, previously, mortgagors could seek relief only when they were directly threatened by mortgagee action, they could now apply for relief independently of any action taken by a mortgagee.

    This Act also extended to lessees the same protection
    that had been granted to mortgagors,

    http://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1987/NZJH_21_2_03.pdf

    All politics is pressure.

    This last ammendment to the Mortgage Moratorium, that it be extended to lessees, (tenants), may have been due to the work of the powerful 'Anti Eviction Committee'.

    A Mortgage Moratorium, to make Auckland's level 4 lockdown bearable until there are Zero community transmission of untraceable infections.
    It is not like our big foreign owned banks can't afford it, they take $3.5 billion off shore from us every year.

    If the banksters dare bitch and moan, we need to quote Mayor Goff's words at them.

    “We're getting a small taste of what our grandparents and parents went through during World War II and the Depression, so try not to just complain…..
    this is what it is and if we work together we will get through it.”     Auckland Mayor, Phil Goff.

    Let us beat this pandemic.

    Let's do all it takes.

    The alternative is the needless deaths, and an overwhelmed public health system.

  15. joe90 15
    11 September 2021 at 9:32 pm

    10 minutes says the manor in question is likely connected to a dement[ed] unit.

    https://twitter.com/nz_voter/status/1436529365030821890

    • McFlock 15.1
      11 September 2021 at 9:40 pm

      Jesus – front, side, and backward effects, huh. The poor bastards have me surrounded!

      edit: I have a certain shocked admiration for the idea the vaccine causes infections in the unvaccinated. So getting covid would be the result of exposure to vaccinated people, not actually covid.

  16. joe90 16
    11 September 2021 at 10:23 pm

    Lock the pricks up.

    As of September 11, Savor Group has been paid $226,856.00 in wage subsidy for August 2021.

    Newshub spoke to four employees who say they are among many left desperate to receive the full amounts of the wage subsidies after the company had made applications under their names, but were only paid based on their minimum contracted hours of three hours each.

    […]

    When New Zealand went into lockdown, she expected to qualify for the 'part-time' wage subsidy at the very least – but instead, Davison has been receiving just $40 weekly for her contracted three hours work.

    This is despite Savor Group applying for a wage subsidy under 'part-time' work in her name for $359, a Ministry of Social Development (MSD) document sent to Newshub confirms.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/savor-group-staff-paid-3-hours-a-week-in-lockdown-despite-bosses-claiming-wage-subsidies-upwards-of-20-hours-work.html