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Open mike 12/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 12th, 2014 - 158 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

158 comments on “Open mike 12/07/2014”

  1. i see the cruelty-free milk story has hit the nz mainstream media..

    ..it will look/taste the same..will have a much longer shelf-life..

    ..will be much cheaper..

    ..and it will be on the market in 2016..18 months away..

    ..that’s not far away..eh..?

    ..and those thinking of investing heavily in that sunset-industry..

    ..(esp. those using treaty settlements to do so..(!)..)

    ..they really need to think on/again..eh..?

    ..and the cruelty-free meat won’t be far behind it..

    ..and that’s the nz economy fucked..

    ..unless we change..and soon…

    “..Milk made in laboratories to hit shelves..”

    “..A new milk could threaten New Zealand’s $17 billion dairy export industry.

    Made in the lab from yeast – and due to be on shelves in 2016 – it will be a product virtually indistinguishable from cows’ milk.

    Because it will have the same proteins – fats – sugars – vitamins – and minerals –

    • it will also taste the same – according to Perumal Gandhi – co-founder of Californian research and development company Muufri.

    But the milk will be able to be made without the typical cholesterol – allergen lactose – and bacteria in cows’ milk –

    • meaning it will be healthier and won’t need to be refrigerated – giving it a much longer shelf-life.

    Soon after its introduction – it would become far cheaper than its cow-made rival – Gandhi said..”




    ..time is getting short..

    • Chooky 1.1

      philip ( I said it first yesterday on open mike …so there!…I scooped…nardy nardy nah )

      Repeat broadcast:

      Another reason why New Zealand needs more Research and Development to diversify away from the dairy industry….see ‘Milk without the Moo’…. in ‘New Scientist’ 28 June, 2014

      …. in this article in ‘New Scientist’, biotech company Muufi is aiming to produce a cow free milk…”we are crafting animal-free milk from the bottom up…”..using six key milk proteins”…(far easier to make than cultured meat)…via biochemical engineering…” ‘New Harvest’, an international non-profit organisation, which aims to end factory farming through advances in science and technology” …is also involved in this venture. ..(leaving out lactose and cholesterol and bacteria…product will need not pasteurisation or refrigeration)

      …Looks like competition is looming fast for the dairy industry!


      • amirite 1.1.1

        Watch this govt putting trade barriers on in panic…oh hang on, they’re already on when we can’t import cheaper milk from overseas.

    • cricklewood 1.2

      You left this bit out Phil….
      ” inserting the DNA instructions for these foods into the yeast’s genetic code.”

      GE Milk… with a side of GE corn for breakfast anyone?

      • phillip ure 1.2.1


        ..if it’s animal-slavery vs. a ge tweak…

        ..sorry..!..no contest..!

        ..and i doubt those concerns will stop the destruction of our dairy industry..eh..?

        • It’s not a contest for you personally =/= not a contest for other people. And don’t you already not drink milk anyway?

          • bad12

            i often wonder at the depth of Phillips thinking, i see Phillip the heroic Greeny striding the aisles of His local Pak’n’Slave feversihly muttering to Himself about showing those polluting animal torturing dairy farmers a thing or two,

            Scooping cartons of Soy Milk into His trolley He declares the blow struck on behalf of all mankind, never stopping to ponder for a moment just Where that Soy was grown via which companies GE seeds,

            At home rewarding Himself for a job well done, take that dairy industry, Phillip pops the cap on the tetra pack litre of sugar laden soy milk with not a thought that such packaging whether manufactured at Kinlieth or Kawerau has as a by-product of its manufacture 1000’s of liters daily of Black Water poured directly into either the Waikato or Tarawera rivers,

            Justice in its small way rewards Phillip for His efforts, situated miles below the Kinlieth Mills Mangakino outfall is the Auckland City Councils intake where, admittedly highly diluted, Phillip gets to shave, wash, and, drink of such wonders of industrial pollution on His way to what will probably be a terminal cancer bought about by the slow ingestion of minute amounts of the industrial pollution His tetra pak of soy milk directly helped create,

            Welcome to the magic circle of modern industrialization Phillip, you may think you have in some way escaped it, you are of course deluded…

          • phillip ure

            what i was saying stephanie..

            ..is that will not be a barrier to the wholesale market acceptance…

            ..of this much cheaper/no need to refrigerate/tastes the same as milk..

            ..and the ensuing destruction of our economic-base..

            ..and i guess for those that don’t care about animal-slavery..

            ..they cd get all precious..

            ..and go:..i’ll have the cruel stuff please..’..

            ..that’s got ge..!

            ..but the average punter won’t care..

            ..they”ll just see better/much-cheaper…

            ..and no..i don’t drink milk..

            ..but i welcome this product because of the disruptor affect it will have on the animal-slavery/concentration-camps/suffering..
            ..and soon..too..!!


            ..(our rivers will get a chance to get clean again..)

            • Draco T Bastard

              and the ensuing destruction of our economic-base..

              Actually, this type of product/production is probably the saviour of our economic base. Won’t do much for our financials but that’s only money anyway and can written off as needed.

              • and fonterra are in total denial..

                ..rnz reports that they ‘aren’t worried’ about this mega-disruptor..

                ..more fools them..eh..?

                • and of course the downstream-animal-industries will also be fucked..

                  ..as this cheaper product will be used to make cheese etc…

                  ..and don’t forget..

                  ..the cruelty-free meat will also be here relatively soon…

                  ..that will be the final nail in the animal-industry coffin/nz export-industry…

                  ..they just won’t be able to compete on price..apart from anything else..

                  ..and james cameron will be seen to be the smart/clever/prescient-one..

                  ..seeing as he is currently converting dairy-holdings into farms growing real food…

                • I have seen literally nothing about this aside from articles in NZ based on the lab’s press releases. They’re described as a start-up and they have a PayPal donate button on their website. I think it’s far too early to scream about the end of the dairy sector.

                  • ok steph…

                    ..a product release date of 2016 is just all bullshit..eh..?

                    ..nothing to see there..eh..?

                    ..and this company is not the only one searching for this holy grail..

                    ..and for those who think such drastic diet-changes won’t happen..

                    ..i wd recommend they seek out a british tv show..(name escapes me..someone will know..)

                    ..where they had two british luvvies..living for a week on the diets of various british eras..

                    ..look at that..and then tell me massive changes in diet don’t happen..

                    ..and no..the dairy industry won’t die overnite..

                    ..but are you saying the arrival of this product will have had no effect..?

                    ..five to ten yrs down the road..?

                    ..we will still be living these glory-days of uber-high prices for our animal-industry products..?

                    ..good luck with that..eh..?

                    ..the smart-people will be getting out now/soon..

                    ..selling up before the price of dairy-farms etc collapses..

                    ..it’s gonna get very ugly..during the transition..

                    ..but for anyone thinking ‘green’…

                    ..this is very very good news..

                    ..this new mega-disruptor..

                    ..and for those who want to grow real/good-food…

                    ..there will be lots of cheap farms/land up for grabs…

                    ..as these dairy-dreamtimes-investments..all turns to dust…

                    ..and i have real concerns for those iwi pouring their treaty settlements into this sunset-industry..

                    ..the impact on those iwi will be huge..and not in a good way..


                    • Because start-up firms are always completely accurate when they’re forecasting a launch date for a product which is entirely theoretical and untested at this stage. 🙄

                    • right ho..steph..

                      ..it’s just not gonna happen..eh..?

                      ..you just keep on stuffing yr fists in yr ears and going ‘nyah..!..nyah..!..nyah..!’..eh..?

                      ..and maybe all those companies racing to develop this and lab-meat..

                      ..maybe they will just be ‘start-ups’..to be sneered at..eh..?

                      ..you are sounding like a bridle-maker..saying that those new-fangled car things will never amount to much..

                      ..can you not grasp how rich will be those that first get there..?

                      ..can you not see/comprehend the size of this economic-imperative..?

                      and this just sounds like some dreamer..eh..?

                      “..They hope to have the first glass to taste in September.

                      Cheese, yoghurt, and cream will all be able to be made from the milk –

                      • and milk imitating goat and buffalo varieties will be next on Muufri’s agenda..”

                      (muufri’..get it..?..)

                • bad12

                  Laughable, the farmers have been milking cows on an industrial scale a hundred years befor you first began your elongated Wah Wah Wah, and, when thankfully it gives out one last waaaa–aaah they will go on for another hundred years milking those cows on an industrial scale…

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Hmmmm it’s going to be difficult for them to keep milking cows on an industrial scale once phosphorus fertilisers become impossible to come by in ~ 50 years (by which time diesel will be history too)

                    • cricklewood

                      Phosphates wont run out in 50 years they will become much more expensive to extract and possibly the subject of global tension as the US has 25 yrs left and the biggest reserves (200 years) are in disputed territory in the western Sahara.Currently we waste massive quantities of the stuff right through the chain this is been addressed. There are some extremely high tech fertilizers available and some fairly significant developments in the use of beneficial fungus out of the organic side which also improve the utilization phosphates to great effect.
                      Either way we wont run out in 50 years

        • cricklewood

          Milks around $1.80 a litre… all the will in the world the yeast stuff wont be a lot cheaper certainly even if it were free i’d rather spend the $1.80… small change to avoid eating GE. I’ll bet the only place this stuff ends up in the foreseeable future is cheese in can and some other half rate products… that and nestled in with the soy milk niche area. Probably with a big sign saying Genetically engineered on it…

          • phillip ure

            so you have a ge-free diet do you sunshine..?


            ..you are like those ‘vegetarians’ who blissfully ignore the calves’-guts used as a binding-agent in most cheeses..

            ..that they eat far too much of..

            ..and those carnivores who claim to only eat animal-flesh from animals raised on ‘happy-farms’…


            ..i’m calling ‘bullshit!’ on all of you…

            • bad12

              As evidenced by this particular page Phillip, you are full of an endless supply of it to ”call on all of us”,

              Bullshit that is…

            • cricklewood

              Given the choice I dont eat GE certainly not knowingly. But I enjoy a good bacon sandwich as well. In fact im not shy about eating some of the less popular cuts waste not want not and all that…

              What I dont do is get up on the pulpit on a daily basis to preach to the animal harming omnivores. And on this particular occasion cherry picking the story to leave out what is to many a very strong negative…

              • bad12

                Mmmm bacon sandwiches, i must admit that i weakened from my veg and fish diet last week and bought four slices of honey cured bacon with the weekly shopping,

                Along with my slice of one of the three little piggies arse end i got a fresh baked loaf of wholemeal bread,

                Yummy, halved the loaf made two magic sandwiches with the bacon roasted in the oven and the addition of eggs,tomato,mushroom,onion,guacamole, lashings of chillie sauce and pepper i indulged in an orgy drenched in sweat,chillie sauce and yes, dripping with bacon fat,

                Lolz, far from drop dead via eating part of one of the three little piglets i was to coin a phrase in hog heaven, and, still managed to lose my kilo of body weight for the week…

              • no ‘preaching’ from you cricklewood..?

                ..givr yrslf multiple pats on the back..eh..?

                ..as you eat yr ‘less popular cuts’..

                ..secure in yr knowledge they are ‘ge-free’..

                ..that animal flesh/fat also gives ya cancer..?

                ..no worries..!..eh..?

                ..yr ‘cancer’ will be ge-free..

                ..and that’s all that really matters..eh..?

                .animals suffering..?

                ..fuck them..!..eh..?

              • “..What I dont do is get up on the pulpit on a daily basis to preach to the animal harming omnivores..”

                well you wouldn’t..would you..?

                ..you are one…

                ..how does that sentence make any sense at all..?

  2. “..How Pot Helped this Autistic Epileptic Child – Go From Blank Stares to Loving Hugs..

    ..Her frequent seizures were once so severe they caused broken bones —

    • now they’re almost eliminated..”



    (how unthinkingly cruel is it that nz children suffering this way are denied the healing properties/salve of cannabis..?..

    ..ask yself that..eh..?..)

  3. dimebag russell 3

    pull your socks up, pull your underpants up, use more soap and go to church then you will be ok.

    • Chooky 3.1

      first part is ok…keep your pants up and use more soap….don’t know about the church part…it may undo the first part ….especially if it is the Catholic Church…you have to watch those priests

  4. Morrissey 4

    Target: Gaza

    Discussions like this never feature on New Zealand television. Never. This is essential viewing for anyone who is interested in learning something about the situation in the Gaza Strip.

    Norman Finkelstein, as always, is brilliantly clear; note especially his point at the 4:00 mark about “the Israeli fear of a Palestinian peace offensive.”


    • JanM 4.1

      Not to trivialize what you’re saying, and aware it’s not the same topic exactly, but I got this in an email yesterday:

      Subject: It’s quite simple, really …

      Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?
      Let me explain.
      We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
      We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
      We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
      We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
      So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends,
      and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose,
      but we don’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
      If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
      And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
      who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
      It’s quite simple, really.

      • Morrissey 4.1.1

        Thanks for that Jan. It’s not trivializing at all.

      • ianmac 4.1.2

        Jane Young on Pundit about the Israeli attack on Gaza:
        “That force has already been likened to Mike Tyson beating up on a toddler who spat at him.”

        • Morrissey

          Not a bad analogy, but it does not quite get everything in context. The fact is: the toddler spat at Mike Tyson because Tyson was killing it, having already killed its parents and the rest of its family, all the while claiming that HE was the victim.

          And of course Tyson is perfectly entitled to defend himself, as reported faithfully by the BBC, and Radio New Zealand, and the NZ Herald.

    • greywarbler 4.2

      I heard your name on Radionz. Attacking Kim about something you think she meant from something that she said. You need to go for short walks to clear and relax your head between bouts on the keyboard. The reality of happenings that are filling your head are too awful to think about all the time. You will go round the bend if you don’t give yourself a holiday from worrying and suffering now and then.

      • Morrissey 4.2.1

        I heard your name on Radionz. Attacking Kim about something you think she meant from something that she said.

        I did not attack her. I respect her, and I was disappointed to hear her being so indolent on this occasion. She took my point with good grace, and agreed with me.

        Here is the email she read out just after the 9 o’clock news:

        Gaza is about international law—not money

        Dear Kim,

        You affected a world-weary sigh and made a rather flippant remark about Gaza: “Whether there’s enough money in the world to solve that one, I don’t know.”

        Surely the problem has nothing to do with money and everything to do with law and justice. It’s quite clear which party in the Gaza conflict is in gross contravention of international law.

        It has nothing to do with money, any more than the similar violations of human rights did in apartheid South Africa and the Jim Crow South.

        Yours sincerely,

        Morrissey Breen
        Northcote Point

    • greywarbler 4.3

      I heard your name on Radionz. Attacking Kim about something you think she meant from something that she said. You need to go for short walks to clear and relax your head between bouts on the keyboard. The reality of happenings that are filling your head are too awful to think about all the time. You will go round the bend if you don’t give yourself a holiday from worrying and suffering now and then.

      • Chooky 4.3.1

        greywarbler ..(.a computer is playing funny tricks and doubling up your comments)…i heard the comment by Morrissey on radio and it wasnt an “attack” …rather a comment…to Kim Hills remark in a different context which showed she thought with a sigh that the Israeli problem is beyond any money to fix…

        …i agree with Morrissey, and so apparently did Kim Hill… it is about Israeli “gross contravention of international law’ and “violations of human rights”

        …points which Norman Finkelstein, the courageous Jewish campaigner for Palestinian justice, also makes

    • Chooky 4.4

      Thanks Morrissey…crosstalk link was very interesting!

      …as usual Norman Finkelstein is a succinct Jewish hero for fair play and justice for the Palestinians…Hamas is a threat to the Israeli government because it is the New Unity Govt of the Palestinians and it is recognised by the Europeans and UN…. and the Israelis do not want peace

      ….and Mouin Rabbani says it all …what the Israelis are doing bombing the Palestinians is “morally obscene”

    • Rosie 4.5

      Thank you for posting that interview Morrissey. It was helpful in gaining an insight into Israel’s latest attacks on Palestine. If anything we tend to get the Dan Arbell view, ( watered down but of that colour) reported in NZ, despite the facts of the reality for the Palestinians, occupation, loss of access to necessities and a high number of deaths during times of conflict compared to Israel. (Last I heard, it was 0 – 89 in favour to Israel in some sort of macabre tally).

      No Iron Dome for Palestinian civilians.

      • greywarbler 4.5.1

        @Rosie 4.5
        What do you think about Edward de Bono? Here are some thoughts the creative and out of the square thinker has had on finding a way forward on the aggression.

        The marmite (zinc) solution might be viable.

        This one is based on known stimulant, money, and based on the carrot and stick principle really.
        Deduct $50 million from the aid given to the Palestinians for each rocket fired into Israel. The same concept would be applied to Israel. Now you are no longer a hero to your people by firing a rocket, which in any case is symbolic, since you’ve just cost them a hospital or a school. You have to give them something to lose,” Prof. de Bono says.

        Or try to shift out the bloody hawks on both sides. Through voting in each other’s elections.

        • Rosie

          You know, I have an Edward De Bono book “Po: beyond yes and no” (1972)which I never got around to reading. (The concept of Po, is mentioned in your second link).

          Our psyche tutor also mentioned that De Bono had some useful theory but was too pop psychology for students to bother with, maybe that put me off. I don’t know.

          The marmite/zinc deficiency theory, a bit of a dubious link to conflict no?! I took that as a joke! (A bad taste one) And say for arguments sake there was a mass zinc deficiency in the Middle east due to unleavened bread wouldn’t that lead to fertility problems? Maybe you would need to look at correlations between sources of zinc in the diet and health problems such as fertility issues before De Bono handed out rations of marmite to the Israeli Defence Force and Hamas.

          Financial incentives based on withdrawal of aid, when the Palestinians have lost so much? They haven’t really got hospitals to lose as their access to medicines and equpiment has been cut off by blockades……..

          • greywarbler

            I note your comment. “Our psyche tutor also mentioned that De Bono had some useful theory but was too pop psychology for students to bother with, maybe that put me off. I don’t know.”

            That is a perfect example of retreat from thinking because of some authoritative person’s opinion. This is what has happened in Israel itself. The location that should now be a country has been claimed by the army and their thinking is led by generals who have used their standing to be elected to political office where they have managed to remain with the same hawkish approach until they die at an old age, many generations on from 1948.

            The marmite idea was an exercise in thinking outside the square, ie what your psychology tutor and her ilk may have embedded.
            A Foreign Office spokeswoman said the decision to invite Dr de Bono came out of internal discussions on modernising the department.
            “The idea came from thinking about how to make the Foreign Office more creative and introducing the idea that creativity can be taught. Edward de Bono is the guru of creative thinking,” she said.
            It is not Dr de Bono’s first encounter with the British civil service. Last year Sir Michael Bichard, the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Education, accused top Whitehall mandarins of stifling creativity and refusing to reform the civil service. He drafted in Dr de Bono to show civil servants how to make radical decisions.

            The money idea is worth more than a derisory comment.

            Trying to find new ways to break the impasse is wise, to do or think otherwise just leads to a continuation of the insanity.
            “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” supposed to have been said by Einstein.

            • Rosie

              Warbs, I simply don’t have the answers or suggestions for a resolution for Israel and Palestine but I’m not sure Edward Be Bono does either, despite his renowned research and promotion of creative problem solving. His idea’s seem kind of ……..flippant in regard to this conflict.

              I should add that I don’t blindly follow the advice of any authoritative figure, such as my former psych tutor. I’ve had a lifetime’s worth of healthy disrespect for what people in authority tell me to do or think. This particular tutor however was one cool cucumber, someone who did encourage us to think in a critical manner and gave us different views on a certain theory to consider. I had a huge amount of respect for him.

              Really, I’m no one to comment with any expertise on the conflict between Palestine and Israel. I’ve just read about the history over the years and have only a little understanding of it. I also had a lot of interaction with Jewish people here in NZ( working for them for 6 years) as well as having the good fortune to experience the very kind hospitality of Palestinians here too. It’s those people’s views and experiences that sparked an interest in that region of the world, and the way I see it it’s those people that know the best way out of it.

        • Rosie

          You know, I have an Edward De Bono book “Po: beyond yes and no” (1972)which I never got around to reading. (The concept of Po, is mentioned in your second link).

          Our psyche tutor also mentioned that De Bono had some useful theory but was too pop psychology for students to bother with, maybe that put me off. I don’t know.

          The marmite/zinc deficiency theory, a bit of a dubious link to conflict no?! I took that as a joke! (A bad taste one) And say for arguments sake there was a mass zinc deficiency in the Middle east due to unleavened bread wouldn’t that lead to fertility problems? Maybe you would need to look at correlations between sources of zinc in the diet and health problems such as fertility issues before De Bono handed out rations of marmite to the Israeli Defence Force and Hamas.

          Financial incentives based on withdrawal of aid, when the Palestinians have lost so much? They haven’t really got hospitals to lose as their access to medicines and equipment has been cut off by blockades……..

        • Morrissey

          De Bono is a fool. Like another supposedly clever English intellectual, Richard Dawkins, he has commented on a situation he obviously knows little or nothing about.

          • greywarbler


            • swordfish

              De Bono’s facile idea is premised on the notion that this is some sort of Faults-on-Both-Sides conflict. Nothing could be further from the truth.

              • Murray Olsen

                Creative thinking beginning from false premises just gives GIGO without turning the computer on. I also find the idea of somehow fining the Palestinians $50 million for each rocket to be totally bloody obscene. Did this piece of brilliance come in an email from Tel Aviv? What a fuckwit.

                • Colonial Viper

                  They’re going to want the Palestinians to sacrifice a new born baby terrorist for each WWII era rocket fired, next.

                • Colonial Viper

                  They’re going to want the Palestinians to sacrifice a new born baby terrorist for each WWII era rocket fired, next.

          • Chooky

            +100 Morrissey … “De Bono is a fool”…in other words a fuckwit .

    • swordfish 4.6

      I see the Israel Lobby’s Dan Arbell employed Geoffrey Palmer’s deeply flawed quasi-UN Report for propaganda purposes in the RT interview. Hope Geoff’s happy.

  5. Morrissey 5


    Sorry everyone, but I’ve noticed that often my posts appear in TRIPLICATE. Be assured I only push the “Submit Comment” button once.

    I see the extra posts have been removed a couple of minutes later. Thanks Lin.

  6. North 6

    Which muttering, off-the-planet fool write this ?

    Under the headline “Politics will turn off youth until they find their voice” John Armstrong predicts that Election 2014 will show a record low voter turn out. His authority – a Massey University poll of 288 18-24 year olds in which –

    79 % – (228) intend to vote and 21% (60) intend not to vote. While this ‘intends to vote’ percentage, is actually significantly greater than nationwide voter turnout in 2008 and 2011 it is apparently confirmatory of Armstrong’s prediction. What ?

    Without mentioning the actual figures or percentages – one has to go to the Massey website to find them – Armstrong then spiels that of the 21% who intend not to vote 40% (24) say they would be “more likely to vote” were it possible to do so online. The responses of 24 out of 288 (8%) are apparently relevant to establishing, well……’something’.

    Not sure what exactly but I do get the feeling that Armstrong’s subliminal wish is to tell young people, by deploying the straw man of online voting – “voting has nothing for you – you might as well not bother”.

    Now why would he do that, this scion of the Herald “Democracy Under Attack” Fourth Estate ?

    • idlegus 6.1

      the headline for the same article in the odt was “how to net all those non-votes? might not be worth trying”. & the summation was basically that old catch cry ‘its all labours fault’.

    • swordfish 6.2

      21% of 18-24 year olds do not intend to vote at this election

      Yeah, well that’s extraordinary from Armstrong. Surveys have estimated that 42% of 18-24 year olds failed to vote in 2011, with a similar proportion (40%) staying home on election day 2008.

      If the Massey University survey is accurate then the conclusion to be drawn would have to be the absolute polar opposite to Armstrong’s.

  7. I wondered how the rod removal thingy was going at Fukushima so I googled

    and what popped up was – tsunami, earthquake, typhoon…


    if a tree falls in the forest and noone hears it does it make a sound?

    If a tree exists outside of perception then there is no way for us to know that the tree exists. So then, what do we mean by ‘existence’, what is the difference between perception and reality? Also, people may also say, if the tree exists outside of perception (as common sense would dictate), then it will produce sound waves. However, these sound waves will not actually sound like anything. Sound as it is mechanically understood will occur, but sound as it is understood by sensation will not occur. So then, how is it known that ‘sound as it is mechanically understood’ will occur if that sound is not perceived?


    • karol 7.1

      If a tree falls in the forest and no-one hears the sound, it’s existence will still be part of the whole that impacts on climate change.

    • greywarbler 7.2

      OOh marty my head – thinking. I answer your comment with my favourite quotes for dealing with conundrums.

      Our brains are not capable of comprehending the infinite so, instead, we ignore it and eat cheese on toast.
      Why do we love the idea that people might be secretly working together to control and organise the world? Because we don’t like to face the fact that our world runs on a combination of chaos, incompetence and confusion.”
      Jonathan Cainer Astrologist

      I came across Maya Angelou the other day – she had died. But everybody liked her and her words live on. Good eh! Way to go.

      Life Quote
      My mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive; and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style.
      – Maya Angelou

  8. North 8

    Sorry, something wrong with the edit function – 75% of the 60 who intend not to vote (45 respondents) – 16% of the total polled would be “more likely to vote” could they vote online. Did idiot Armstrong get paid for this rubbish ?

  9. greywarbler 9

    Comment by spokesperson for the investors in the Rossponzi scheme on Radionz this morning was that NZ had no or weak laws to enable getting money paid back from fraudulent dealings. Dishonestly obtained money can be taken from gangs and their fences but some recipients would be ignorant of where it came from. Do they get stripped of receipts too?

    Broadening the laws to allow for recovery of unfair gains could be something that Labour could promise. What has Labour said about regulating companies and surveilling them while they are operating? And then after they have stopped, repairing wrongs and recovering money?

    How can we prevent these twisted amoral dishonest etc greedy shits from taking everybody down and worse stripping NZ investors of their saved discretionary money which should be available for investing in productive assets, not exiled overseas or spent on consumer goods by the king dick or dickess of the moment.?

    We can bring in laws that the USA want but what about ones meant to help us? And there would be some votes in this from destroyed investors, they are regularly mentioned as having to keep working because their retirement money has been hornswoggled (lovely USA word that means cheated). There must be NACT investors who are very angry at the present system that no doubt appears adequate. But is probably like my Chinese-made shoes, look good, fit well, but covered with thin veneer of vinyl and soles as thin as ice cream wafers. .

    The financial investment law and particularly the checking and surveillance part needs tightening and banks should probably have to bear more risk dare I say. But financial probity and fair dealing legislation if practical and well drawn up would be a vote winner I should think.

  10. bennett on the nation..

    ..lying her head off..

    ..fuck..!..i’m just about smashing into the desk here..

    ..just lie after fucken lie…!

  11. mickysavage 11

    Aargh more gross stupidity from Paula Bennett. She just said this on the Nation and I kid you not. To a question on child poverty and if it is acceptable for kids living in benefit houses to be doing without she said:

    “On average a sole parent living in one child in Auckland gets about $560 a week.

    That’s the average, a lot get a lot more than that, not many get below that to be quite frank, so that’s the minimum you sort of see for a sole parent.”

    So which is it?

    1. An average?
    2. A lot get a lot more than that and not many get below that?
    3. The minimum.

    Words fail me …

    • karol 11.1

      So glad you’re there tp witness that. Also glad I was busy attending to chores. Will read the transcript later. Can’t bear to watch.

    • Murray Olsen 11.2

      It could mean anything. She is incredibly thick, even by NAct standards. We must also remember that we can never assume any of them are telling the truth.

  12. lisa owen called her ‘paula benefit’ in the sign-off..

    ..and owen did a good job-of-work…

    ..hanging ‘paula benefit’ up for all to see..naked…

    • anker 12.1

      Agree Phillip..I thought Lisa Owen did a good job.

      Thought Bennett looked and sounded on the back foot. I thought she either had a cold or sounded like she could burst into tears. But it won’t be tears for those children in poverty. Tears over being challenged.

      • phillip ure 12.1.1

        and now i would like labours’ spokesperson on these matters..(who is it..?..does anyone know..?..putting the ‘low’ in ‘low-profile’..?..)

        ..i wd like to see them asked the same questions that were asked of bennett…

  13. now shearer is showing all the reasons he is no longer leader of labour..

    ..and the beads of oil-sweat glistening on his forehead..

  14. anker 14

    Phillip @ 13 agree with you about Shearer too. I feel nervous for him!

    • “..I feel nervous for him!..”

      i know what you mean..

      ..a total disaster of an appearance..

      ..and showing that on fucking-the-environment matters..

      ..national/labour are tweedle-dum/tweedle-dee..

    • karol 14.2

      I was thinking Labour dodged a bullet there.

      It’s “and” not, it’s not “or”…. it’s.. we can have both

      Ah. Jeannette Fitzsimons on the panel

      • phillip ure 14.2.1

        and now what i wd like to see..

        ..is the green party being asked the same questions that were asked of shearer…

        ..to see if they have any ‘bottom-lines’ on this..

        ..and to see if those same beads of oil-sweat gather on their forehead also..

        ..difficult to see how that wouldn’t happen..


        • karol

          Bottom lines is a red herring. A party needs strength in numbers of MPs to push their priorities as far as they can in post election negotiations.

          The Green Party states their priorities – those are the things they will aim to promote as strongly as possible in the next term of government. It’s a positive approach about what they will work for, rather than a more reactive focus on bottom lines.

          If bottom lines is the drum you want to keep beating, go for it. I’m more focused on priorities, and maximising the left vote.

          • Colonial Viper

            I was thinking Labour dodged a bullet there.

            A bullet fired by members of Labour’s own goddam caucus.

      • Karen 14.2.2

        +1 Karol.
        I just watched Shearer – what a disaster he was. Bumbling, stuttering, incoherent – I couldn’t get to the end he was so bad. Labour would have had no chance with him as leader.

        What he said about the Labour Party policy on mining suggests he’s been listening to his old mate John Pagani who does PR for Oil & Gas. My only hope is the Green Party will be in a position to improve Labour’s environment policy.

        • phillip ure

          “..My only hope is the Green Party will be in a position to improve Labour’s environment policy..”

          good luck with that one..eh..?

          ..norman has already said he is ok with drilling/mining etc..

          ..in that ‘no bottom-lines’ interview he did..

          ..their focus seemingly is on cabinet-positions..

          • Bearded Git

            Oh so negative phillip

            • phillip ure

              how is that ‘negative’ on my part..?

              ..this is what norman said…

              ..these are facts..

              ..should they just not be mentioned..?

              ..should we draw a discreet veil over them..?

              • Bearded Git

                phillip-look at the alternative. Another 3 years of these bozos.

                • where have i ever argued against throwing these tory bastards out.?.

                  ..but my memories of the 90’s still burn large…

                  ..and those who just forget..are often doomed to make the same mistakes..

                  ..that is why i want labours’ vote to collapse to internet/mana and the greens..

                  ..’cos the stronger those two in any grouping..

                  ..the more we will get done..

                  ..it’s as simple as that..

                  ..we can have our revolution at the ballot-box..

                  ..internet/mana and the greens both have policies that wd have been labour policies in days of yore..

                  ..and that nowadays labour don’t have…..

        • JK

          Shearer should be reading up on Labour’s Policy Platform instead of listening to his old mates …. who were not (as far as I’m aware) part of putting it together.

          Labour hasn’t finalised all its environment policies yet, but the Policy Platform shows where Labour intends to go and Leader Cunliffe has already stated some of these matters publicly, and in a factual manner. Goodness knows why Shearer can’t do the same !

          Here’s an extract :

          Labour will prioritise the development of renewable and low-carbon energy technologies for a smooth transition away from our dependence on fossil fuels. With a strong base of existing renewable energy including hydro, geothermal, and wind, we believe all New Zealanders should benefit from our use of sustainable natural resources. ……………………………..
          Moving away from our dependency on fossil fuels is a vital and responsible goal. While we move away from this dependency, the extractive industries will continue to be a significant part of the New Zealand economy. Labour is committed to ensuring the lowest possible environmental risk from these extractive industries.

          We will have clear environmental expectations, including harm prevention, of those engaging in exploration and extraction. Future projects must meet higher standards in emergency response preparedness, liability, and ability to pay if an accident occurs.

          Labour will put in place appropriate legislative provisions to protect the environment, and appropriate regulatory controls for this purpose (including stringent environmental impact statements and ongoing monitoring of sites), backed by an adequate and appropriately skilled inspectorate.

          • phillip ure

            that sure as hell wasn’t what shearer was saying..

            ..he was just channeling that oil-pimp pagani…

            ..and fitzsimon noted that there was no difference between national and labour in these matters..

          • phillip ure

            that sure as hell wasn’t what shearer was saying..

            ..he was just channeling that oil-pimp pagani…

            ..and fitzsimon noted that there was no difference between national and labour in these matters..

            • JK

              Those sorts of comments are very frustrating to Labour members who’ve been prominent in getting big changes to Labour policy on these important matters.

              David Cunliffe spoke at a marae in the north recently and this is a summary of what he
              said on oil/gas drilling – knowing that northern Maori in particular are very worried about intentions to start oil exploration off their coasts.

              On Oil Drilling off the West Coast:
              David said the current regulations are not strict enough, and the National Government had loosened them even more. When Labour became Government it would tighten up those
              regulations, and strengthen the Resource Management Act, to ensure there would be no
              danger to NZ’s waters, marine animals or environment should any oil drilling take place.
              He said Labour’s position did not go as far as the Green Party and their supporters would want, but that Labour would set a high bar for a would-be drilling company to meet.

              • so why didn’t shearer say that..?

                ..why did he sound like he could have been speaking for national..?

                ..just totally defending the status quo..

                ..and a ‘high bar’…eh..?

                ..well..that’s good news..

                ..but the devil is always in the detail..eh..?

          • karol

            Actually, that pretty much is the gist of what Shearer was saying. It was just that he highlighted the continued exploration. All the rest is included in what he said.

            David Shearer: Well we support oil drilling and we have done in the past, there’s no major change there. What we want to see is a regime very much like in Norway, a Norwegian model where there is good processes of approval, there’s tight regulations, we have a regime for making sure that that money is used well and at the same time we try and make sure our transition to renewables goes on in pace because at the end of the day fossil fuels are out. They can not continue to be our future. But we can use them to transition to renewables.
            So it’s anybody’s guess and for a government and I would say certainly a Labour government putting all our cards on the table and saying our economic development is going to depend or rely on the discovery of oil is nonsense.
            Well we’ve got a policy because we believe that there’s a future for New Zealand and a future for us being able to transition into renewables. And if this allows us to transition into renewables I would have thought that that was something the Greens would want to support.

            • JK

              Maybe Shearer just doesn’t come across firmly enough…… maybe he has too many ums and
              ahs and fumbles around too much …… as a politician, he’s obviously not yet learned how to do acceptable soundbites. Frankly, I can’t bear to watch/listen to him ….. too cringe-making.

              • dimebag russell

                switch channels you drongo and stop whining.
                play the argument and not the man.
                what are ya?

                • Chris

                  You say play the argument and not the person yet you call someone a “drongo”. I’m sick to death of reading your shite postings on TS. You’re as hypocritical as cameron slater and probably as obnoxious. I think you’d be more at home on that site.

                  • dimebag russell

                    @ chris
                    I dont give a sh*t what you think.
                    whats your point?

                    • Chris

                      Why do you ask what the point is if you don’t give a shit? I’ll tell you anyway, which is that almost every comment you make contains personal abuse yet you say to someone to play the argument not the person. Take your own advice and stop being so unnecessarily nasty.

            • Foreign Waka

              I think that if a regime like Norway has is applied it would work a lot better for NZ – in many, many ways. However, I also understand that drilling in such debts has never been done and Norway’s sites are not as deep as the ones suggested in NZ. What it matters? It is not that easy to close a valve in such debts as people are made to belief.

              • Colonial Viper

                Nice Freudian mate

                Also in the near future possession of the actual energy itself is going to be way more vital than possession of the keyboard created currency credits you can trade it for

  15. greywarbler 15

    Wallace Chapman on RADIONZ Sunday morning – something for everyone?

    7:08 News and Current Affairs
    With Internet party leader Laila Harre, Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell, concerns about the state of heath care in Pacific nations, a visit inside the Mason Clinic, and an update on the Fifa World Cup.

    8:12 Insight: Can the Commonwealth Games Survive?

    8:40 Diane Coyle – Enlightened Economics
    Diane Coyle runs the consultancy Enlightenment Economics. She is Vice-Chair of the BBC Trust and is also a visiting research associate at the University of Oxford’s Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment. She specialises in competition analysis, and the economics of new technologies and globalisation. She is the author of several books, including GDP: A Brief and Affectionate History and The Economics of Enough. She talks to Wallace about GDP and other ways to measure wealth – plus, what’s happening at the BBC.

    9:06 Mediawatch
    9:40 Wayne Brittenden’s Counterpoint
    Looking at Indonesian election.

    10:06 Garth McVicar and Kim Workman – the people, books and events that shaped their ideas
    Garth McVicar, a Hawke’s Bay farmer who founded the Sensible Sentencing Trust, is known for his “lock ‘em up and throw away the key” approach to crime; whereas Kim Workman, a former policeman who went on to become the head of the prison service and founded the lobby group Rethinking Crime and Punishment, is known for his unflagging commitment to rehabilitation and restorative justice.
    (Kim Workman has worked hard for better ways.)

    11:05 Charles Dennard – Cirque du Soleil
    Charles first joined Cirque du Soleil as the keyboardist and assistant bandleader of the Big Top touring production Alegría. He joins us on Sunday Morning to talk about his upcoming role in Cirque du Soleil’s Totem.

    11:25 Paora Joseph – Voices from the River
    Paora Joseph (below) is of Atihau-a-Papaarangi and Nga Rauru descent, from Kaiwhaiki Pa and Putiki Marae, Whanganui. In Auckland, he worked as an actor with renowned Maori filmmaker Don Selwyn. Selwyn encouraged him to become a director and he was later mentored by award-winning filmmaker Gaylene Preston in making Tatarakihi: The Children of Parihaka, which screened in the 2012 NZ International Film Festival. Paora Joseph will talk to Sunday Morning about his new film Te Awa Tupua – Voices from the River ahead of its world premiere at this year’s New Zealand International Film Festival.

    11:40 Gerard Johnstone – Housebound
    Wallace talks to Gerard Johnstone about his debut feature film Housebound – a mix of gothic horror and domestic comedy. The film had a shaky start but became a hit at the South by Southwest Film Festival and will feature in the New Zealand International Film Festival.

    • Bearded Git 15.1

      Thanks for that grey. Wallace is superb. Where do you get this info?

      • phillip ure 15.1.1

        “..Wallace is superb..”


        ..that piece of irredeemable-fluff that is backbenchers..?

        ..i can’t watch it..

        ..it is such a waste of the medium/air/everyones’-time..

        ..and what pisses me off..is that it could be really good..

        ..political/ideological-debate in a pub-setting..

        ..letting the politicians fall upon each other..and argue their cases/policies/ideas..

        ..let them get down to it..

        ..with the compere just there to facilitate/referee…

        ..it’s a ripper/winning formula..

        ..instead it has been reduced to a facile/unquestioning piece of crap..

        ..just a vehicle for chapman to prance about on..

        ..like i said..unwatchable…

        • Bearded Git

          I disagree phillip. Accepted its not a substitute for a serious political discussion programme but it has its place and you often do get real discussions on real issues-it does depend which pollies they have on.

          The issue with youth politicians this week was excellent.

          I have taken both of my boys to the pub to watch it when up in Wellywood. A pint of Emersons and live politics-what could be better?

      • greywarbler 15.1.2

        @Bearded G
        I am on their mailing list – radionz for sat and sun morn, which gives time, names and heading. And then I went on to the site RNZ, under Schedules chose Sunday and picked out some info from Wallace’s list of goodies. Just enough to give some background. It sounded especially interesting and I am a great admirer of Kim Workman.

    • dimebag russell 15.2

      I want to know how many shares mcvicar has in the private prison company?

  16. greywarbler 16

    lprent Hello twice.

  17. greywarbler 17

    lprent Hello twice.

  18. karol 18

    NZ Herald: Part 2 of Cunliffe’s bio by Claire Trevett – the starts off with lots on Cunliffe’s ego and “naked ambition”.

    Why wasn’t that highlighted as much in John Key’s bio back in 2005 – he’s the boy who wanted to be rich and PM from an early age.

    • karol 18.1

      Using Tamihere as a main source is bound to get a lot of negative quotes about Cunliffe. This typical JT:

      Asked how Cunliffe positioned himself in caucus in those early years, Tamihere said it was “four square under the PM’s apron strings.”

      • Ant 18.1.1

        That guy has such an unfounded high opinion of himself…

        • karol

          Which guy? Tamihere?

        • Murray Olsen

          You really have to wonder why he has that opinion. Shane Jones was the same. Both as useless as tits on a bull.

          The whole thing is just a hatchet job on Cunliffe. Trevett should stick to writing barely disguised declarations of love for Key.

  19. anker 19

    Yes I read this week bio on Cunliffe with dismay. But what else would you expect from Trevitt.

    Every negative story or angle on a story. Nothing about who the charity was that he dyed his hair for. She spun the story as if he was doing it for attention.

    When talking about the Hawkes Bay Health board, she didn’t mention that he sacked them because the conflict of interests was in fact corruption. No mention that he speaks Te Reo…………

    • karol 19.1

      there are some shocking bits of skewed reporting, but also parts where CT does report more fairly both sides of contentious issues. Mentions white anting of Goff by Cunliffe supporters, but nothing about major whiteanting campaign by ABCs of Cunliffe.

      She does report in a more fair and accurate about the non-coup at the Labour Conference. Too much sourcing of views from Tamihere. Give air to that nasty, schoolyard, misogynist nickname play on Cunliffe’s name – totally unnecessary.

      CT does accurately report on some of DC’s strengths, but over-emphasises and reinforces the mythologising of DC’s ego and self-promotion – they don’t do anything like that about Key’s self-centred, self-promoting ego.

      • Dumrse 19.1.1

        “There are some shocking bits of skewed reporting…”, is that a bit like the recent Tania Billingsley comments you and others contributed to? That said, the story has gone very quiet.

        • greywarbler

          Keep writing in here, it will probably lift your IQ although slightly dimming ours.

          • Dumrse

            Having determined that’s your best effort…….I feel brighter already. Shame you have no constructive comment re the Tania story. Actually, I take that back, it’s a shame Karol has no further comment.

            • karol

              It’s a shame you have no comment to make on the article I commented on above. I’ve made my views onBillingsley clear elsewhere.

              It’s not a clever tactic, Dumrse, to continue to try to bait me, especially via your comments of little substance.

  20. Pasupial 20

    This TASER-use report has been interesting reading:


    Especially when compared to the MSM reporting of its findings (eg Stuff):


    Take this line: “Tasers were among the least injury-causing tactical options used by police, the report said.”. When what the report actually says is:

    Excluding minor probe injuries, TASER had one of the lowest injury rates

    Which is one hell of a big thing to exclude – if you ignore the injuries caused by every TASER use, then yes; they can be portrayed as low injury-causing (just two people ending up in hospital last year immediately after Tasing).

    But TASER injuries (eg neurological damage) can take time to manifest. This (2013) article points to a discrepancy between the numbers of injuries reported in the Police reports and those processed by ACC.

    The highest number of claims in a year (19) was in 2012-13. Taser injuries include lacerations – most likely cuts or punctures (20 claims), soft-tissue injury (13), foreign body in orifice/eye (5) and burns (4).
    Concussions/brain injuries, dental injuries and fracture/dislocation injuries were also recorded


  21. Rosie 21

    Has anyone had a go on “The Worm” Roy Morgan survey advertised in the banner of TS?


    I did. I don’t know about these reactor surveys though. They are looking for gut reaction/emotive reaction. Would it not be better to think about the video statements in the survey rather than merely “react” to them? In any case, I had mostly all of Nationals statement down at zero and most of Labours up around 89. 90, 100, buts that a bias for you………………..Need to look into the concept of a Helix Persona too, before making to swift a judgement about the worm. Just don’t have time now to read about it.

    Oh, and you can only participate in the televised worm debate survey if you have a smartphone, so thats me out.

    • karol 21.1

      Groan. And, of course, it enables those with the money to buy smart phones to have a stronger voice than others.

      • Rosie 21.1.1

        Exactly karol, it eliminates an entire section of potential participants based on access to resources. Hardly a “representative sample”.

  22. The Pink Postman. 22

    The election slogan displayed by National on their bill boards must surely be the biggest joke of the year “.Working for NZ “.when we have one of the highest unemployment for years .

      • ianmac 22.1.1

        It is disturbing that in UK there seems no one to question or able to hold Blair to account. (John Campbell had a go and upset Blair when he interviewed him in NZ a few years back.)
        Or in NZ. Look what happened to Jon Stephenson when he questioned the Defence claims.
        Nothing like have the rights of the people eroded to allow the unfettered to flourish. But one day when the people realise how much they have lost…..

    • Chris 22.2

      And from a party with a support base that’s constantly on the lookout for reducing the cost of labour; that accepts lay-offs as a sign of the market working; and that advocates less government in people’s lives (unless you’re a beneficiary). That’s working for NZ, all right.

      • dimebag russell 22.2.1

        that opinion does not make any sense whatsoever.
        I think you need to stop talking to wail boil.
        does he give lessons on how to write nonsense?

        • Chris

          Slater would disagree with everything I said. What is it that you don’t understand?

  23. This story seems to sum up the modern age – but I’m sure she will land on her feet – not like the beautiful animal she shot down. And as for L’Oreal – I don’t rate anyone or anything associated with the ‘beauty’ industry – to me it seems to be preying on insecurities and a massive waste of resources, people and money but if others are into it then that is their business.

    “The hunting photo which has cost 17-year-old Axelle Despiegelaere her high-profile modelling gig.”


    • karol 23.1

      Actually, I think this story sums it up more. When the marketing of useless and environment-damaging beauty products and accessories for females gets saturated, they expand their target consumers to males.

      • marty mars 23.1.1

        I just can’t imagine that saturation ever occurring – the bigwigs of the industry will just come up with another gimmick – a bit like toothpaste marketing. I was blown away to hear of a relative under 25 and been for a botox treatment – I just never imagined the lines being formed that young.

  24. RedLogix 24

    Following a JMG link I found this rather blunt article from a relatively surprising source – one of the first investors in Amazon and one of the 0.01% richest men in the USA:

    But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

    And so I have a message for my fellow filthy rich, for all of us who live in our gated bubble worlds: Wake up, people. It won’t last.

    If we don’t do something to fix the glaring inequities in this economy, the pitchforks are going to come for us. No society can sustain this kind of rising inequality. In fact, there is no example in human history where wealth accumulated like this and the pitchforks didn’t eventually come out. You show me a highly unequal society, and I will show you a police state. Or an uprising. There are no counterexamples. None. It’s not if, it’s when.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html#ixzz37E3uwv00

    • karol 24.1

      That reminds me I caught a bit of the Head to Head forum on Al Jazeera this morning:

      Has capitalism failed the world?

      Former financial regulator Lord Adair Turner discusses the role of banks, the politics behind austerity, and capitalism.

      It seems that mistakes made in Wall Street and the City of London are paid for by people around the world, but can we govern greed within the realm of capitalism or is it all just money down the drain? Is austerity really needed? Can we trust the banks?
      Joining our discussion are: Jon Moulton, a venture capitalist and the founder of the private equity firm Better Capital. He has nurtured a reputation for forthrightness even to the point of challenging his private equity peers for abusing tax regimes. He is also one of the few men in the City of London who warned about the impending crash before it happened; Professor Costas Lapavitsas, who teaches economics at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) at the University of London and is the author of several notable books on the crash and its consequences including Crisis in the Eurozone and Financialisation in Crisis; and Ann Pettifor, the director of PRIME (Policy Research in Macroeconomics), and a fellow of the New Economics Foundation.

      The debate included various perspectives from the need to restrain banks and banksters for capitalism to work, to a socialist perspective.

    • RedBaronCV 24.2

      Note that he names NZ as the bolt hole state of choice. Time to stop the off shore sales perhaps?

      • Colonial Viper 24.2.1

        If we were to be really strategic about this we would be doing much more than stopping offshore property sales. But finding foreign talent who were going to contribute to the long term survivability of the nation in many different ways. Which is both good for them – and good for us.

        • marty mars

          As a society we don’t need any 0.01%ers here, We have lots to do and a whole lot of people here to do it – we just need to train up the people that are here rather than source foreign ‘talent’. I see the transitioning of current abilities and skills to what we may need as being a growth area 🙂

          • Draco T Bastard

            The 1%ers get rich off of everyone else doing the work. We, as a society, need to ask why that is.

          • Colonial Viper

            Basically agree. We do have to recognise that NZ has lost a lot of talented experienced people over the last 2 decades. We want them back, with their motivation and knowledge base. And others too, as this nation does not have expertise and experience in all the areas that it could benefit from. NB I’m not necessarily talking about the very wealthy being the kind of people we need in NZ, rather the ones with the skills, the smarts and the humanity to put it to good use on our behalf 🙂

            • marty mars

              If they’ve left, they have made their choice. I’d concentrate on those that haven’t left because they are here rather than chase these others or offer ‘incentives’ to come back. In my experience when they are ready to come home they come home and everything happens as it is supposed to. I don’t think the brightest and best have left but that could be conceit 🙂

  25. dimebag russell 25

    who heard the juvenile act rep at the backbenchers on TV this week opining that teachers and the education department know nothing about education.
    only parents do!
    I found this claim preposterous and more people should mount an offensive against this sort of nonsensical assertion.

  26. Colonial Viper 26

    People and regions in NZ are growing apart economically

    Shamubeel Eaqub (NZIER) talks about Growing Apart

    I think you know there’s a whole bunch of things here but not every region can succeed on every measure. We have to decide what does prosperity mean and in many ways I think we’ve lost sight of the fact that what we’re trying to do with economic policy is to create opportunities for New Zealanders. And increasingly we talk about GDP or employment growth on a national level and we forget that there is this big divergence. Economic outcomes are being decided by poverty, where kids are not getting enough education, the outcomes are not good enough, that welfare is not lifting them out of poverty. You know it’s good to have a welfare safety net but is it the poverty alleviation that we’re looking for? How do we help people to have better outcomes in their life not just about will they stay trapped in those regions.


    • karol 26.1

      That was the guy on The Nation this morning, talking on the same topic.

    • greywarbler 26.2

      @Colonial viper
      Seems to me that Eaqub had a hidden meaning in what he said about the poor regions. Maybe I’m over sensitive but I thought he was getting to the point of saying that regions like Northland cannot afford to not accept major industrial measures there that will
      bring some money and jobs into the area, ie mining and Kaipara Harbour perhaps, accept tidal electricity making despite it being a fish nursery for many species, (I understand this is so).

      • Colonial Viper 26.2.1

        There are few economic initiatives possible in those areas if you rely on the “market” and on corporate powers to deliver, and have government which refuses to do anything but.

        Also I disagree with Eaqub in that I think population growth has to be driven out of Auckland into the regions. Having 1/3 the country in less than .3% of the space is never going to work.

  27. greywarbler 27

    @Colonial viper
    There has already been pressure put upon Maori protesters at environmentally damaging projects which would damage pipi beds, fishing areas, or potentially because of leaks or vessels coming in with dirty bottoms – fanworm is apparently a bad one.

    I wouldn’t put it past the next NACT government to change the payment of welfare to increase the pressure that already occurs in a region where there was much unemployment, all welfare would be bulk funded or similar, forcing young people to move out or there would be insufficient for the region. That could be done under the cloak of self management.

    To keep the young people at home, there would be pressure on iwi and hapu to agree to economic development such as land or sea mining. And further if government could find ways to get iwi to pay for the projects out of their Waitangi Court money, that would be very satisfactory to them in keeping Maori poor and more compliant, having no leverage to resist overtures and demands.

    • Colonial Viper 27.1

      This is the game that the international capitalists play against entire nations. Squeeze them with austerity and money shortages, and force their populations to accept despoilation of people and resources through the resulting desperation and poverty.

      You have to accept deep sea oil drilling. Where else can you get jobs from? You have to accept mining on the conservation estate. Where else can you get jobs from? You have to accept our waterways as sewers. Where else can you get jobs from?

      So to keep our place in the financial system alive, we have to kill our world.

      • greywarbler 27.1.1

        @ Colonial Viper
        Yes this is what I am afraid of. I’ve already heard on radio the annoyed responses to Maori and pointing out that some project would provide jobs. Of course those jobs are short term. Then what?

        Kim had an item on this morning about Nigeria and West Africa and oil. They were supposed to get very rich. I didn’t listen but it might have some points for here

        Rachel Boynton: oil rush in West Africa ( 37′ 57″ )
        09:05 Producer and director of the documentary Big Men, about oil deals in Ghana and Nigeria, screening in the New Zealand International Film Festival.

  28. Draco T Bastard 28

    We’re Learning More From Stephen Colbert Than The Actual News, Study Says

    Want to be more informed about what’s going on in the world? The findings of a new study suggest that watching Stephen Colbert might help you more than actual news programs.

    US based study but, considering just how bad our MSM are, I’d say it would be true of NZ as well – except we don’t have any good satire shows.

  29. joe90 29

    Tommy Ramone is dead.

    I believe in miracles.
    I believe in a better world for me and you.
    Oh, I believe in miracles.
    I believe in a better world for me and you.

  30. dimebag russell 30

    rock rock Rockaway Beach.
    gonna hitch a ride to Rockaway beach!!!!

  31. Draco T Bastard 31

    Minimum wage doesn’t raies unemployment

    That’s because market forces set the market rate at an unskilled worker’s “marginal product” – the value to the employer of the worker’s labour.
    Almost common sense, really. Except that such a conclusion is based on a host of assumptions, many of which rarely hold in the real world. And over the past 20 years, academic economists have done many empirical studies showing that’s not how minimum wages work in practice. They’ve also developed more sophisticated theories that better fit the empirical facts. It’s all explained in the June issue of the ACTU’s Economic Bulletin.

    But the real question is what would the results of asking NZ economists this question:

    As a result, there’s been a big swing in academic thinking on the question of the minimum wage. Last year, researchers at the University of Chicago asked a panel of economists from top US universities whether they agreed with the statement that “the distortionary costs of raising the federal minimum wage to $US9 per hour and indexing it to inflation are sufficiently small compared with the benefits to low-skilled workers who can find employment that this would be a desirable policy”. Fully 62 per cent agreed and 16 per cent disagreed, leaving 22 per cent uncertain.

    Because every single one that I had as lecturers while at Otago uni said that raising minimum wage would increase unemployment.

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