Open Mike 12/11/2017

135 comments on “Open Mike 12/11/2017 ”

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1. Ant 1

   12 November 2017 at 7:36 am

   “The truth of corporate journalism, and the great irony of its obsession with ‘fake news’, is that it is itself utterly fake. What could be more obviously fake than the idea that Truth can be sold by billionaire-owned media dependent on billionaire-owned advertisers for maximised profit? ” http://www.medialens.org/

   Nicely put.
   • Ed 1.1

     12 November 2017 at 8:33 am

     All they need are puppets and mercenaries like HDPA prepared to sell their souls.

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11942657
     • ianmac 1.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 8:35 am

       Rubbish! Rubbish she writes!
     • North 1.1.2

       12 November 2017 at 10:07 am

       Heather Plastic-Allan……the risible queen of risible trivia. Trudeau’s people arrived in a bus…..FFS! Hino over Pinot. Pleeez…..Noooooo!

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11942657
       • Ms Fargo 1.1.2.1

         12 November 2017 at 11:34 am

         Maybe she’d be better writing for The Onion until she grows up a wee bit?
         https://www.theonion.com/
         • tracey 1.1.2.1.1

           12 November 2017 at 1:03 pm

           Og The Onion is way too good for her
   • cleangreen 1.2

     12 November 2017 at 9:25 am

     True every word.

     “money talks – truth walks.”
     • Ed 1.2.1

       12 November 2017 at 11:10 am

       “Political understanding is made as hard as humanly possible by the billionaire press.”
       George Monbiot
   • Adrian Thornton 1.3

     12 November 2017 at 10:25 am

     +1 Just take a look at the latest election cycle, our media invented a narrative of some sort of mythical “youth quake” that did not exist in reality…

     NZ media driving unfounded news reality..

     http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/09/decision-17-youthquake-arrives-in-new-zealand.html

     Actual reality….

     http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/342919/more-young-people-voted-but-no-youth-quake

     Everyday on RNZ the pundits would talk up this narrative, that did not actually exist in any meaningful way…were they propagating fake news? or just trying to make our little election seem more exciting and intriguing than it was?

     Either way they were certainly guilty of creating the news instead of reporting on news.
     • dv 1.3.1

       12 November 2017 at 10:34 am

       And don’t forget the incesant demand that the greens go with the Natz by the media.
       • cleangreen 1.3.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 12:59 pm

         100% the media are corupt in NZ today sadly.

         The “labour coalition” Government must now move swiftly to ‘neutralise ‘ this elitist corporate driven baised media activity, and provide us with a fully public funded commmercial free media for presentation of all views for all people on their government publically funded platforms, that will finally again provide a balanced fair media service that will in many cases show this current media simply as an unreliable and un-trustworthy source of news and current affairs.

         “News & current affairs fit to feed a healthy democracy.”
     • Ant 1.3.2

       12 November 2017 at 1:22 pm

       “…..or just trying to make our little election seem more exciting and intriguing than it was?”

       Exciting news – (fake or otherwise) sells.

       “a fully public funded commercial-free media for presentation of all views for all people on their government publically funded platforms” (cleangreen) makes sense.

       Bernie made a stir, Jeremy took it further and Jacinda attained the toe-hold. Now its up to all of us to keep the vision untarnished and run with the ball.
   • Bill 1.4

     12 November 2017 at 1:05 pm

     What I find particularly pernicious about the whole “fake news” bullshit – well there are a couple of things.

     1. Proclaiming (for example) RT is ‘fake news’ leaves the field in the sole possession of slanted liberal publications.

     2. Dismissing those who frequent well funded and popular right wing conspiratorial outlets out of hand, simply means the influential message and the weird logic of those outlets isn’t being challenged. (And a lot of people are getting their info and understandings from such places)

     3. A belief in so-called “fake news” allows liberal media to peddle their own propaganda as more truthful and trustworthy – on the accepted basis that all others are “fake”.

     4. The accusation of “fake news” (if broadly accepted as a legitimate ‘argument’) is a powerful mechanism enabling the development of ‘correct’ thought and opinion.

     Don’t know how well I’ve articulated my thoughts there (or kind of repeated myself). But essentially, it’s why I’ll tend to insist that all sources are producing propaganda and there is no line that demarcates “propaganda” and “fake”.
     • marty mars 1.4.1

       12 November 2017 at 2:40 pm

       Yeah nah when they deliberately lie and present falsehoods to generate heat it is fake news.

       Defend rt or the righties or whoever, blame the libs the neo libs the msm the gummy bears the weaklings – for what? Balance – this from a revolutionary!!!

       Fake news is real bill. I do agree that fake news is a form of propaganda.
       • Bill 1.4.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 2:47 pm

         Yeah nah when they deliberately lie and present falsehoods to generate heat it is fake news.

         So when media reported WMD to get people behind the bombing and invasion of Iraq for example? Or when media reported that viagra was being issued to Libyan soldiers so they could rape en-masse? Or when the media peddled a catalogue of falsehoods through it’s reporting on Syria?

         These things are the same type of “fake news” as the “fake news” you’re referring to?

         The rest of your comment is strange projection and weirdness.
         • marty mars 1.4.1.1.1

           12 November 2017 at 3:04 pm

           You quoted my sentence and that sentence answers your question.

           As for your insults – laughable.

           I’m not going to reply to you anymore – you’ve got an attitude issue imo.
     • McFlock 1.4.2

       12 November 2017 at 7:54 pm

       1: That’s because RT makes the liberal media look outstanding in comparison.
       2: There’s a line where challenging a message with reasoned debate is still futile and actually gives the right wing conspiracy nuts credibility that they don’t deserve. Like the liberal media giving AGW a “balanced” view by putting deniers on equal footing with actual experts.
       3: See point 1. If fake news wasn’t so utterly shit, the liberal media would not be the better option.
       4: Some opinions and thoughts are just plain wrong.
       • Bill 1.4.2.1

         12 November 2017 at 8:26 pm

         1. Given that you’ve said you won’t so much as watch a link to an rt piece (and I did only give rt as an example) I suspect your number 1 is really just you indicating that Liberal media accords with your general believes and values.

         2. Debating with conspiracy nuts on conspiracies is futile, But understanding their (usually) right wing non-conspiratorial arguments – the sources for them – means they can be engaged. And engagement loosens the hold of toxic ideologies.

         2. 1Two camps – liberal and right wing – always dismissing one another out of hand won’t end well for liberals. Neither will it end well for the left (which is nowhere near as well resourced as either liberal or right wing outlets and has nothing like the media penetration of either).

         3. The dichotomy is false.

         4. Of course 😉
         • McFlock 1.4.2.1.1

           12 November 2017 at 8:53 pm

           1: You go ahead and suspect that, because if my opinion on RT and decision to no longer waste my time with it was actually based on a reasonably accurate observation of the qualitative differences between RT/Fox and other media, your position would look a bit silly.

           2: how’s that working out for you? Converted any neonazis lately?

           3: no, it’s not.

           4: What’s your opinion on Nazi-themed pedophilia? Should we have a round-table discussion on the arguments for and against, a couple of Nazi-NAMBLA representatives stating their position, with a couple of opponents on the other side, and a tie-wearing moderator keeping everyone civil?

           Or should we keep debating whether AGW exists, one oil-company shill vs one actual climatologist, every sunday afternoon at 6pm?

           Some shit is just plain wrong.
2. patricia bremner 2

   12 November 2017 at 7:41 am

   Remember that we agreed we would not get all we wanted?

   I guess the revised TPPA comes under this list.

   However, Clare Curran’s speech, SCOOP, gives great pleasure.

   Public broadcasting, RNZ+, Cultural and NZ material gladdens my heart.

   Win some lose some.
   • Carolyn_nth 2.1

     12 November 2017 at 8:48 am

     A revised TPPA could compromise many other things many of us wanted from a left wing government. If the underlying neoliberal MO remains in tact, then it remains a massive concern for me.

     There are some policies and issues where there is room for compromise. Others, not so much.

     I do strongly welcome the development of RNZ and public service media, after 9 years of being undermine and fund-frozen by NACT.

     However, the suspension of intellectual property issues, and inclusion of protection for Pharmac sound promising.

     in the new CaPpedTPP
     • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 9:54 am

       A revised TPPA could compromise many other things many of us wanted from a left wing government. If the underlying neoliberal MO remains in tact, then it remains a massive concern for me.

       Yep. Puts the lie to Labour being left-wing.

       And the re-branding of the TPP while it remains essentially the same is a lesson in how psychopathy works:

       The ministerial statement released by the TPPA-11 has a catchy new branding for the deal: the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP). No easy slogans there! But isn’t it interesting how something so toxic can simply be relabelled ‘progressive’?
       • cleangreen 2.1.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 1:09 pm

         Draco,

         We fully support your position of this Labour Government wording change to ‘hoodwink’ us all in some rebranding ‘foolery’ excersise here.

         This is not “Transperancy” that labour promised us but it is only pure deception.

         “You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”
         • tracey 2.1.1.1.1

           12 November 2017 at 3:10 pm

           Why do you think NZF agreed to this?
           • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.1.1.1.1

             12 November 2017 at 3:48 pm

             My guess is because they are for “exports and trade”, without understanding that this doesn’t automatically help most people. TPP being an example of a deal that is mostly about growing the rights of the already rich, while doing little for ordinary people.
             • tracey …

               12 November 2017 at 3:56 pm

               I am trying to recall but wasn’t peters against TPP?
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.2

       12 November 2017 at 12:03 pm

       Yes, it seems Labour is still deeply neoliberal.

       A kinder neoliberalism is still slightly better than a nastier neoliberalism – but I hope Labour can actually take a different path one day.
       • tracey 2.1.2.1

         12 November 2017 at 1:06 pm

         That is not a surprise though is it?

         Of interest to me is that in a country where we have CER, 80% of our potential trade under CPTPP is with Australia!

         ” completely eliminates ISDS clauses between Australia and New Zealand, which makes up 80 per cent of potential CPTPP trade. ”

         It has been kept very quiet that TPP was about gaining better access to our cloest neighbour with whom we have CER.

         Interestingly Nats couldnt get the ISDS clause concessions? Or did they never try?
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.2.1.1

           12 November 2017 at 3:49 pm

           Nats would have been comfortable with the ISDS bits I am sure.
           • tracey 2.1.2.1.1.1

             12 November 2017 at 3:56 pm

             It seems I misunderstood what parker said.
       • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2.2

         12 November 2017 at 3:00 pm

         Labour taking a different path is up to its members forcing their leaders to take a different path and that doesn’t seem to be on the cards. The closest that they’ve come so far is David Cunliffe who then got massively white-anted by the rest of the Labour caucus. And the caucus still don’t seem to like their members giving direction to the party.
   • Incognito 2.2

     12 November 2017 at 1:13 pm

     I respectfully disagree.

     I just read Duncan Garner’s ‘sensible’ piece on Stuff https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/98769403/duncan-garner-new-government-places-pragmatism-over-principles–fair-play.

     It raised more alarm bells with me and it was already getting noisier …

     I feel like we’re being sold (!) a Government that sounds much more progressive and principled than it really is. Time will tell, maybe … Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose?

     We’re being pacified with ‘stable’ language and ‘relentless positivity’ and the issues are framed such that we fall into a hypnosis-like state in which we are willing to accept almost anything.

     I voted for change and for a Government that would govern based on core values that are not negotiable. I did not get what I’d hoped for but it’s too early to see how much less it is compared to what I’d hoped for. But I have not given up hope!

     Pragmatism is the silent slayer of dreams and imagination and slowly kills off our creativity; hope keeps it alive!
     • tracey 2.2.1

       12 November 2017 at 3:13 pm

       “Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose?”

       I am not sure what Labour party voters thought they were going to get that is different from a labour Govt that is adherent to traditiona leconomics (the one that has failed so many for decades), is so scared of upsetting “business” it bends over backward to bring in things it likes ahead of addressing wage stagnation (median and below) and working conditions (casual… zero etc) that are an anaethma (sp) to a mickey Savage labour. This is NOT a Mickey Savage Labour party, it makes some Mickey Savage-like noises… but it will not move from the centre.
       • greywarshark 2.2.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 3:16 pm

         Could be a hell-cinder path then.
       • Incognito 2.2.1.2

         12 November 2017 at 5:29 pm

         People hear dog-whistling because they want to. People also like to see things in a way that confirms their perceptions, etc. John Key knew & understood and explored this ‘vulnerability’ to its full potential. We’re all vulnerable to a certain degree …

         I voted for a bunch of people whom I thought were the most likely to affect the much-needed change and I have no regrets whatsoever and would happily do it again.

         Because the way the coalition is made up it is firmly rooted in the centre; it won’t move much to either the left of the right nor upwards – it might not move at all but may lean in or out depending on which way the wind blows. But despite this apparent and likely political inertia in the Beehive outside of it there’s an unstoppable movement and flurry of activity …

         If national politics is to become (more) relevant (again) then our representatives better take heed of what’s going on outside the beltway rather than looking and talking down on us from the ninth floor. Monbiot refers to Politics of Belonging and restoration of community & democracy and our politicians, Labour ones in particular, need to decide whether they want to repair & bridge the disconnect and where they truly belong: with us or separate from us.
     • greywarshark 2.2.2

       12 November 2017 at 3:14 pm

       incognito +100
3. dv 3

   12 November 2017 at 8:36 am

   AND at least 2 article about how the property valuations will make the rates go up by the valuation increase!!!!

   The writers need to do a little research about how rates are set.
   • DH 3.1

     12 November 2017 at 12:25 pm

     I just read the one by Peter Williams. What a self entitled tosser (IMO).

     His two houses will likely have gone up in value by a good $million in just three years and he’s crying poor over a potential $2k increase in rates. His capital gain would pay his entire rates for the next 100years, banks will happily lend against the property and most councils do too. These people who want to have their cake and eat it are rather irksome.
     • tracey 3.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 1:09 pm

       Yup. He got rates calculations wrong and probably covered his rates from the pay from that article. Now had he bemoaning how hard it must be for those on median incomes it would have been more than the moaning of a highly privileged person ignorant of their privilege. Guess we know what he and Hosking last chatted about. I am tempted to say if paying the rates is going to be a problem then Williams and his wife need budgetting lessons and missed all the education on retirement proofing given their combined incomes would be north of 200k.
       • DH 3.1.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 4:31 pm

         It’s a bit scary reading the comments which have now appeared on that Peter Williams article. You’d expect people with the ability to write legibly can also read and think rationally, sadly all too many of those comments kill that theory.
     • North 3.1.2

       12 November 2017 at 6:01 pm

       I so weep for Peter Williams……sitting on probably well over $3,000,000 of readily realisable property in St Marys Bay and Wanaka. Neurotic dork should STFU.
4. Morrissey 4

   12 November 2017 at 8:37 am

   Ten Reasons We Got Rid of the Nasties
   No. 8: That waste of space Tau Henare

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10102014/#comment-908083

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09122016/#comment-1272488

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11131033

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10373968

   “It never ceases to amaze me, the bloodyminded soddishness of people!”
   —Victor Meldrew, “The Worst Horror of All”, One Foot in the Grave
   • alwyn 4.1

     12 November 2017 at 7:20 pm

     You are aware, I hope, that Tau Henare left Parliament in 2014?
     How does voting Labour, or whoever you voted for in 2017, get rid of Tau?
     • Morrissey 4.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 7:22 pm

       A very, VERY good question, Alwyn.

       You have got me there, my friend.
5. Bearded Git 5

   12 November 2017 at 8:38 am

   I know they are small points, but Max Towle quotes Ben Thomas as saying the following here in the Herald yesterday (written 27 Oct) about Bill English:

   “He won 44.6 per cent of the vote in the general election and in the last week of polls was the country’s preferred Prime Minister.”

   In fact National won 44.4 % of the vote. And rather than pretending English is still preferred PM, surely we should be waiting for the next poll which will doubtless show Jacinda as preferred PM.

   Where the article is more interesting is the discussion on who will replace loser English. My money, like Bryce Edwards, is on Amy Adams. She has shown she has perfect qualifications with her abysmal hard-nosed compassionless treatment of Teina Pora and David Bain, her disdain for democracy in Canterbury etc etc.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11937290
   • greywarshark 5.1

     12 November 2017 at 9:15 am

     Bearded Grit!
     I direct people to the image on Bowalley Road where Simon Bridges is arguing the rightness of his bad behaviour. Amy Adams is sitting by him, watching his blustering with apparent interest, amusement, and I feel, approval.
     http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/11/settling-stardust-grim-logic-behind.html

     It’s a lot to read into an image, very subjective, but I believe likely to be true.
     • Bearded Git 5.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 12:58 pm

       Thanks Grey…you just ruined my lunch.
6. Sanctuary 6

   12 November 2017 at 8:41 am

   I see the Herald on Sunday is keeping up it’s relentless anti-Labour bombardment today. It is ridiculous. Instead of writing predictably anti-labour nonsense I would suggest Heather du Plessis-Allan would be more profitably employed lobbying the Wellington City Council for better lighting on Wellington’s winding and vertiginous paths, lest another young person takes a drunken tumble.
7. Sanctuary 7

   12 November 2017 at 8:55 am

   Question: would it be a good idea to allow someone to be stripped of their civic rights (lose the right to vote, banned from standing for public office or get a government job) for up to, say, ten years, as a punishment available to judges under the crimes act? or would it set to dangerous a precedent?
   • greywarshark 7.1

     12 November 2017 at 9:24 am

     Sanctuary
     What sort of crimes would bring that on? I think it would create a dangerous precedent and really be the thin edge of the wedge of minimising the respect for other humans who don’t fit in with the dominant group. Laws are really enforced guidelines and have grown immensely from both parliamentary Bills and through regulations and deemed legislation, I think it is called.

     Moses came down from the mountain with the ten Commandments and I have a picture of them being etched out on stone, but now we have law libraries of bound legislation with matching leather covers with spines striped in gold.

     When it comes to restriction of participation by the public in civic matters, what do you think about changing part of the voting opportunities so that only people who have done a series of workshops that involve a scratch test, so that those people can be voters for a Party. They would have had to put some effort in to learn about the current economic, social and international position of the country. So they would vote and more would be informed about the effects of their decision.

     Everyone would be able to vote for a representative in their electorate. If people are going to vote on personality and impression, and that is more important to them than substance and fact, then give them the opportunity to do that.
     • Sanctuary 7.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 9:45 am

       Generally, I was thinking we need to smarten up on civic affairs – for example, a resident should be able to vote until they complete a civics course (I am thinking the sort of thing you do at a local colleges and polytechs over 4-6 Wednesday evenings).

       I’d like to make election day a public holiday like Xmas day, mid week, and only paid if you vote (imagine that, you didn’t vote and about six weeks after the election you get an email from HR saying they are docking you a day’s pay…).

       I’d like everyone when they vote to get, say, a $10 voucher to donate to a political party of their choice before they leave the voting place and then ban large donations to political parties.

       on the stick side I was thinking stripping civic rights might be a useful sentencing option for white collar criminals…
       • cleangreen 7.1.1.1

         12 November 2017 at 1:17 pm

         Excellent Sanctuary I agree;

         Get big money and bribes out of politics.
       • tracey 7.1.1.2

         12 November 2017 at 3:18 pm

         They teach civics in American schools and they have lower voter turnout than us. It is not about shoving more education down people’s throats it is about engaging people.

         I would like to see a financial incentive for first time voters because statistically if you vote once you are 300% more likely to vote again. But in the end if people think they system isn’t for them, doesn’t serve them, engages in bullshit behaviour and doesn’t tell them stuff (Pointing at media here who have done more “analysis” post election than pre election when it was just regurgitating politicians practiced memes or writing “i reckon” pieces) about what they want to know, then they turn away.
   • Ad 7.2

     12 November 2017 at 9:41 am

     Already the case.

     Go to jail:
     can’t enroll if in jail so can’t vote,
     almost impossible to become a public servant,
     can’t stand for parliament if you can’t enroll to vote

     http://www.elections.org.nz/parties-candidates/candidates/becoming-candidate-2017-general-election
8. Morrissey 8

   12 November 2017 at 9:47 am

   Slave Watch:
   Epsom voters heading to the polls

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/galleries/14738/full_Kereru_Station_pic_5.jpg?1433900710
   • The decrypter 8.1

     12 November 2017 at 9:56 am

     I thought maybe after being dumped “bleating torries ” could apply also.
     • Morrissey 8.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 10:08 am

       A very good point, my friend. Actually, those slaves in Epsom were nearly all obedient National supporters who voted ACT against their better judgment for the simple reason they were instructed to do so. It’s the same yes-man behaviour that gets you a good job and a nice house in Epsom in the first place.
   • cleangreen 8.2

     12 November 2017 at 1:19 pm

     Ha ha, 100% M.
9. David Mac 9

   12 November 2017 at 10:18 am

   I prefer the pronoun ‘magnificent’ but I don’t tweet.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • In Vino 9.1

     12 November 2017 at 7:42 pm

     Pronoun? How can ‘magnificent’ stand in the place of a noun when it is only an adjective? (Maybe we missed something because you got bounced to Open mike?)
     • marty mars 9.1.1

       12 November 2017 at 8:41 pm

       Pretty sure he was making fun of someone elses pronoun preference. See Ben Mack post
       • David Mac 9.1.1.1

         13 November 2017 at 9:57 am

         Yeah, it was a cheap shot that I now regret. A knee-jerk ease with being flippant when I see a non-issue through my eyes. It’s not fair, I’m working on it.

         Rather than trying to treat people as I wish to be treated, it’s more trying to treat them as they wish to be treated. I see that as a good thing.
         • David Mac 9.1.1.1.1

           13 November 2017 at 10:10 am

           Good restaurant staff are experts at treating people as they wish to be treated.

           For one couple excellent service is having a wine glass topped after every sip. For another couple great service is wanting for nothing, yet hardly noticing the waiter.
           • marty mars 9.1.1.1.1.1

             13 November 2017 at 10:20 am

             Yes I agree that treating people the way they want to be treated is the key. A lesson we can all work on methinks.
         • greywarshark 9.1.1.1.2

           13 November 2017 at 1:04 pm

           Don’t try to change David Mac. You’re good to read.
           • In Vino 9.1.1.1.2.1

             13 November 2017 at 5:56 pm

             Yes, OK David Mac
10. Anne 10

    12 November 2017 at 10:38 am

    A little 5 year old boy fell off a wharf not far from where I live yesterday. He drowned. I don’t know all the circumstances surrounding the tragedy, but I do know that somewhere close to me is a family living in a state of profound grief and desolation. They will probably never fully recover.

    It certainly has caused me to think about my priorities in life and how dependent we are on each other – a dependency that has been so badly eroded over recent decades. My hopes are pinned on the Labour-led government turning this state of affairs around so that future communities – be they urban or rural – are far better resourced when it comes to looking after the safety and well being of ALL the people living in them.
    • cleangreen 10.1

      12 November 2017 at 1:26 pm

      Me too 100% Anna,

      I now live in a rural area 70kms from the nearest town and often see families driving up our dirt road miles from nowhere to find somewhere to stop and sleep and stay awhile, all the time and these are not campers but people down on their luck so this makes me weep as we should be doing better than this.
    • marty mars 10.2

      12 November 2017 at 3:08 pm

      + 1 Anne – it really is about looking after everyone imo.
11. Descendant Of Sssmith 11

    12 November 2017 at 11:26 am

    This guy is such a dick.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98757184/damien-grant-ird-punishes-the-risktakers

    “Thousands of companies fail every year. A small number of them pass through my office. Very few are bad people. Almost every one has failed to pay GST and PAYE.”

    Anyone knows that the PAYE money belongs to the employee – it’s part of their wages or salary.

    Two solutions:

    1. Pay it to the employee on payday so they can pay their own tax
    2. Make employers pay IRD at the same time they pay the employee – I can’t for the life of me think of a good reason why my employer should be able to hold onto my deductions beyond the day they are deducted.

    Even more so when almost every failed business has failed to pay.

    That includes student loan deductions. Took my partner three years to sought out her student loan that her thieving employer took out of her wages and didn’t pay.

    Day after day after day we see businesses who owe IRD tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    It should be paid when deducted – not a day, week or month later.
    • Ed 11.1

      12 November 2017 at 11:30 am

      Just another puppet willing to sell his soul to the billionaire press.
      I feel sad for such tragic people.
    • dv 11.2

      12 November 2017 at 11:33 am

      Damien Grant writing about Dairy thieves.

      They are not bad people, they are the risk takers!!!
      • cleangreen 11.2.1

        12 November 2017 at 1:32 pm

        Damien grant = soulless empty vessel.
    • Antoine 11.3

      12 November 2017 at 1:14 pm

      I agree, The solution is to pay the flippin’ taxman rather than whinging to the paper

      A.
    • tracey 11.4

      12 November 2017 at 3:20 pm

      we could start treating company owners like beneficiaries. When one messes up, commits fraud or something we make all of the pariahs and bring in even more regulations to bring them into line.
      • greywarshark 11.4.1

        12 November 2017 at 4:19 pm

        This morning on Radionz on immigrant labour needed for tourist trade, a bar owner was saying that he just couldn’t afford to pay NZrs. His problem I think was that he is competing in a small over-supplied market, and needs the subsidy of low wages to keep his business profitable.

        Descendant of Ssmith point seems good. Make the people responsible for their PAYE payments, even if they are working irregular hours. A direct debit weekly or fortnightly that pays half the average payment and then a full net payment every month.

        IRD might then be able to employ a few more people and not have to rely on machines. It is a useful job, we need responsible tax gatherers in person. And cut out the penalty payments for natural people, not thinking about legal ‘people’ devised by the flick of a pen.
    • Bondy 11.5

      12 November 2017 at 4:43 pm

      This comments indicates perfectly (to me) that you ( and probably the vast majority of Standardistas) have no concept of business or financial operations. Unfortunately this ignorance extends to this Govt, which will gave tragic consequences for most NZers.
      • joe90 11.5.1

        12 November 2017 at 4:51 pm

        A business model based on wage theft, huh?.
      • DH 11.5.2

        12 November 2017 at 5:24 pm

        What concepts are they missing Bondy? Seems pretty straightforward to me, if you take on a debt you’re expected to pay what you owe. The majority of people in business pay their debts, pay their taxes, and don’t moan about it.
      • Incognito 11.5.3

        12 November 2017 at 5:42 pm

        You may well be correct in your assertion but I look forward to the day that governing is less like running a business focussing on financial operations (spreadsheets and ‘actuarial tables’ to guide ‘social investment’) and being ‘astute managers of the economy’ and more about putting the people (and environment!) first and foremost. Ideally, all three are integrated and synergise rather than conflict/compete with each other.
      • Descendant Of Sssmith 11.5.4

        12 November 2017 at 5:48 pm

        Nope well aware that on my payday you take x amount of my wages to pay on my behalf to IRD.

        I expect you to pay it. If you don’t you’ve stolen my money.

        In this case because I’ve earned it under a lawful contract which you as the employer has signed to pay me x amount per hour it is my actual money.

        Stop stealing. Thief, thief, thief………

        If you can’t pay my full wages by not paying the PAYE you must really hate it when the government gives me tax cuts cause you have to pay me more on payday and hold less in your bank account.
        • BM 11.5.4.1

          12 November 2017 at 6:31 pm

          Why do you think a business owner may not be able to pay paye?

          I really recommend some of you guys give self-employment a go, be the boss, experience it from the other side.

          By self-employment I don’t mean being on contract for six months or a year, I mean actually running a business where you’re lucky to have more than a months work ahead of you so you’ve got to endlessly get out there and have to hunt for work.

          For that added level of difficulty add a few employees to the mix.
          • Andre 11.5.4.1.1

            12 November 2017 at 6:57 pm

            Been there, done that. Back in the days when everything was paper-based.

            I made life difficult for myself a few times when I didn’t immediately set aside my employees PAYE when I paid their wages. But I always treated tax owed to the IRD as a top-level priority right alongside wages, so I did what it took to pay up when it came due. (I wasn’t so careful about getting returns in on time when there was no tax owing or a refund due to me, which the IRD got grouchy about).

            These days if I set back up in business and employed people, I’d expect my electronic accounting package to make sure PAYE issues got sorted at the press of a button, right at the same time wages are paid.

            In the end, it’s a case of setting priorities. In my case, I prioritised my obligations to the rest of society as represented by the government at the top-level right alongside obligations to employees. That the government carries the biggest stick of all was only a small part of that choice.
            • BM 11.5.4.1.1.1

              12 November 2017 at 7:07 pm

              I made life difficult for myself a few times when I didn’t immediately set aside my employees PAYE when I paid their wages. But I always treated tax owed to the IRD as a top-level priority right alongside wages, so I did what it took to pay up when it came due. (I wasn’t so careful about getting returns in on time when there was no tax owing or a refund due to me, which the IRD got grouchy about).

              Absolutely it a priority, otherwise the IRD is down on you like a tonne of bricks.

              It’s just unfortunate sometimes no matter how hard some people try, the money has to be used to keep the business afloat.

              This talk of stealing is bullshit, 99.99% of business owners want to run a successful legitimate business, sometimes things don’t go as planned
              • McFlock …

                12 November 2017 at 7:20 pm

                Indeed.

                But that’s not the IRD’s fault, or the employees’.

                You’re talking about struggling businesses that choose to not pay their bills in order to try to “keep the business afloat”. Those businesses are already sunk, hoping for a lotto-style hail-mary pass that, according to Grant’s article, hardly ever comes.

                And he paints the IRD as the bad guy for it.
                • BM …

                  12 November 2017 at 7:34 pm

                  That’s true when you can meet your tax obligations you’re pretty much fucked.

                  It takes a strong person to realise that and admit you’re financially going down the gurgler and probably dragging a few of your employees’ down with you.
                • DH …

                  12 November 2017 at 8:14 pm

                  Yeah, he runs an insolvency business so what he sees of business is largely those who have gone bust.

                  Most are a pox on the business community. They use creditors as a bank and there’s a hell of a domino effect from those pricks who don’t pay their debts.
                  • One Anonymous Bloke …

                    13 November 2017 at 6:01 am

                    +100

                    Dealing with one of these at the moment. Utterly lost in his own world.
              • Craig H …

                12 November 2017 at 7:24 pm

                BM – I largely agree and I used to work at IRD. On the other hand, people like the Nosh owners here (John Denize was the subject of Friday’s Checkpoint) need a swift kick, so there needs to be stiffer punishments for those sorts of losers.

                https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2017-ar3655

                http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/335202/nosh-and-mt-eden-food-co-in-receivership
                • BM …

                  12 November 2017 at 7:41 pm

                  It would be great if employers could actually talk to the IRD if they’re in difficulty and see if they can come up with a plan that works for both parties.

                  IRD does tend to be seen as being like those old school teachers that whacks you with a cane if you step slightly out of line.
                  • In Vino …

                    12 November 2017 at 7:44 pm

                    A bit like trolls such as some people I could mention..
                  • Descendant Of Sssmith …

                    12 November 2017 at 9:04 pm

                    Of course they can talk to IRD – but they don’t do they.

                    And yes it is theft. The employer has taken the money out of my wages, over which I have no choice btw, and not sent it to where it should be sent.

                    It should be compulsory to pay it at the same time as my wages.

                    That would help identify businesses in trouble at an earlier point and less people would be owed money if the business didn’t succeed.
                  • Craig H …

                    12 November 2017 at 9:46 pm

                    They can and regularly did when I was there as I set up many debt repayment arrangements in my time, and no doubt many others did as well. IRD also wipe debts (partially or totally) regularly in cases of genuine hardship or financial difficulty.
                  • Psycho Milt …

                    12 November 2017 at 11:17 pm

                    It would be great if employers could actually talk to the IRD if they’re in difficulty and see if they can come up with a plan that works for both parties.

                    Yeah, it would be great if MSD worked like that too. Hopefully, we’ve just elected a government that thinks in those terms.
                  • KJT …

                    13 November 2017 at 7:12 am

                    You can.
                    Found IRD very good to deal with, especially over provisional tax.
                    Which is difficult when your cashflow varies hugely.

                    Unlike WINZ. Advocating for young people, I have first hand experience of the culture of meanness, contempt and bloody mindedness.
                  • KJT …

                    13 November 2017 at 12:46 pm

                    I found that if you are honest with the IRD, they are actually rather good about you paying them back. I never treated PAYE as my money, so that was always there. They were very good about negotiating a payment schedule, I could afford, for the rest.

                    Much kinder than WINZ are to those on welfare.
              • Draco T Bastard …

                12 November 2017 at 11:55 pm

                This talk of stealing is bullshit, 99.99% of business owners want to run a successful legitimate business, sometimes things don’t go as planned

                One day, when I was working at McDs in Starship, a customer came in and ordered food for himself and his rellies. They were all there to see his son who’d been in an accident.

                When he ordered he asked for the receipt at which point his wife asked if he was going to put it on the business and he said yes.

                This person is not running a legitimate business.

                Things is, this is just one anecdote. I have several more from different business owners throughout my life. Now, I’m certainly not friends with every business person in the country but when nine out of ten of the ones I do know are running these same or similar scams then I must question your assertion that 99.99% of business owners want to run a successful legitimate business.
          • KJT 11.5.4.1.2

            12 November 2017 at 9:46 pm

            Been there, done that. And paid everyone when I could, even though I was too ill to work for several years, at a real bad time when starting the business. .

            The fact is. If your business cannot pay a living wage for all involved, and pay all its costs, including training staff, taxes for the resources it uses, and fair wages, then it is a tax payer and employee funded hobby, and should be shut down.

            Why should your employees, and the rest of us who pay our taxes, fund your hobby?
            • Draco T Bastard 11.5.4.1.2.1

              13 November 2017 at 12:02 am

              +111
      • greywarshark 11.5.5

        12 November 2017 at 8:29 pm

        You don’t believe your word is your bond-y then?
      • Psycho Milt 11.5.6

        12 November 2017 at 11:12 pm

        This comments indicates perfectly (to me) that you ( and probably the vast majority of Standardistas) have no concept of business or financial operations. Unfortunately this ignorance extends to this Govt, which will gave tragic consequences for most NZers.

        Funny, that was what I thought about all the right-wing fucks who had something bad to say about Metiria Turei, but funnily enough, that didn’t stop them running their mouths. Welcome to social media.
      • Draco T Bastard 11.5.7

        13 November 2017 at 12:07 am

        So, what did you think of Metiria’s actions to feed her child?
12. DH 12

    12 November 2017 at 11:36 am

    Another of those instances where you wonder what’s happened to this country;

    “Damien Grant: IRD punishes the risk-takers”
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/98757184/damien-grant-ird-punishes-the-risktakers

    The man is a convicted fraudster and Stuff give him a regular soapbox to preach to us about ‘morals’. It’s like we’re all sitting at the Mad Hatters tea party.
    • DH 12.1

      12 November 2017 at 11:39 am

      Hah.. Descendant Of Sssmith … snap!
    • greywarshark 12.2

      12 November 2017 at 4:20 pm

      DH
      Alice in Wonderland is so reeeaal man, its like man that the guy could see into the future!
    • KJT 12.3

      12 November 2017 at 9:49 pm

      Risk takers??

      The people who declare their business insolvent, leave their subbies and employees broke, and scarper. Or expect the Government to bail out their poor business decisions.

      Make us wear their risks. more like!
13. cleangreen 13

    12 November 2017 at 1:34 pm

    Damien Grant = Tea Party NZ Founder?
14. Macro 14

    12 November 2017 at 1:50 pm

    https://giphy.com/gifs/graphic-warning-kill-uTCAwWNtz7U2c
    This little boy grew up to be Gareth Morgan
    • tracey 14.1

      12 November 2017 at 3:22 pm

      Chuckling
15. marty mars 15

    12 November 2017 at 4:33 pm

    First anniversary in tiny house.

    Some ideas reinforced.
    Humans have amazing capabilities to adapt.
    We need a hell of a lot less than what we imagine and when it really comes down to it most of the stuff we have is hardly worth it – we really need shelter, warmth, food, safety, love, community.
    Humans are mammals and mammals clump together especially 9 and 2.5 year olds and their parents.

    7 x 2.5 x 4.2 metres is doable, is enjoyable and is valuable at least for the four of us.
    • North 15.1

      12 November 2017 at 4:56 pm

      Sounds lovely Marty. ‘Onyous!
    • Antoine 15.2

      13 November 2017 at 1:09 am

      How funny thats exactly what ive got (9 and 2.5). Congrats
16. patricia bremner 16

    12 November 2017 at 4:34 pm

    An interesting article in the Herald where Carmel Sepuloni is talking about welfare, with some mentioning of improving things. No time frames but beginnings.
17. Grey Area 17

    12 November 2017 at 6:46 pm

    This is starting to get tiresome. Lead story on Stuff is all Brownlee. Was comment sought from any government spokesperson? Did anyone bother to ask the Foreign Minister if he had a response?

    National carrying on like they are still in charge and the MSM helping them do it.

    Brownlee warns PM
    • BM 17.1

      12 November 2017 at 6:58 pm

      Christ, you guys have short memories.

      Think back six months, it was exactly the same but the roles were reversed.

      Labour’s the target now, get used to it.
      • marty mars 17.1.1

        12 November 2017 at 8:49 pm

        Rubbish, 6 months ago brownlee was on the front page. Just because you say it doesn’t make it true buddy. The loser gnats are getting a free ride to rip into the government. Dirty.
      • weka 17.1.2

        12 November 2017 at 9:36 pm

        “Think back six months, it was exactly the same but the roles were reversed.”

        Are you saying that six months ago Labour had just been kicked out of govt and were getting media attention that the new govt wasn’t and thus the public were being presented with a skewed view? Because that would be stupid right?
18. Grey Area 18

    12 November 2017 at 7:30 pm

    They were the target before as well. What country were you referring to? It can’t be this one.
19. RedBaronCV 19

    12 November 2017 at 8:00 pm

    The Dompost printed copy last week had a lengthy article by David Garrat defending the 3 strikes legislation . Can’t find it on the internet but WTF. Not exactly a credible source I’d have though but no disclaimer with it.
    • marty mars 19.1

      12 November 2017 at 8:51 pm

      A more odious example of a disgraced ex politican would be impossible to find imo.
20. joe90 20

    12 November 2017 at 8:03 pm

    Remember when people had websites.

    The events and data above describe how three internet companies have acquired massive influence on the Web, but why does that imply the beginning of the Web’s death? To answer that, we need to reflect on what the Web is.

    The original vision for the Web according to its creator, Tim Berners-Lee, was a space with multilateral publishing and consumption of information. It was a peer-to-peer vision with no dependency on a single party. Tim himself claims the Web is dying: the Web he wanted and the Web he got are no longer the same.

    https://staltz.com/the-web-began-dying-in-2014-heres-how.html
21. joe90 21

    12 November 2017 at 8:12 pm

    Does Faux news broadcast in Russia?.

    Russia’s state-owned media outlet, RT, has announced that it will comply with US government demands to register as a “foreign agent” of the Russian government, amid controversy over Russia’s attempts to influence the 2016 presidential election.

    It’s a move that effectively marks the network, which runs both a website and a cable television channel, as a propaganda outfit for Moscow.

    https://www.vox.com/world/2017/11/10/16633586/rt-russia-propaganda-foreign-agent
    • greywarshark 21.1

      12 November 2017 at 8:37 pm

      Voice of America? Still going. Readers Digest – always has a pro-USA view.

      VOA News
      https://www.voanews.com/
      English news from the Voice of America. VOA provides complete coverage of the U.S, Asia, Africa and the Mideast.

      Voice of America – Wikipedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America
      Voice of America (VOA) is a U.S. government-funded international news source that serves as the United States federal government’s official institution for …

      Everybody’s doing it, doing it…
      • joe90 21.1.1

        12 November 2017 at 9:07 pm

        Answering my own question, Fox News has no terrestrial or satellite carriers in Russia while RT has terrestrial and satellite carriers, and studio facilities in the US.

        VOA and affiliates are state funded cross-border broadcasters with studios and production based in the US.
        • greywarshark 21.1.1.1

          13 November 2017 at 1:43 pm

          It would be good perhaps to have USA media with facilities for Russian factual content getting first-hand information which is then available to their citizens to replace the info that just suits the propaganda that the pointy-heads give out.
22. Robert Guyton 22

    12 November 2017 at 8:57 pm

    The dominant culture should always look to see what the minority cultures are saying and seek to understand them , but they don’t; instead they seek to counter what they perceive to be an “attack” on mainstream thinking.
    When
    will
    we
    ever
    learn?
    Seemingly, never
    Chins up! 🙂
23. Pat 23

    12 November 2017 at 9:21 pm

    “As environmentalist Paul Hawken put it: “We have an economy where we steal the future, sell it in the present, and call it GDP.”

    “With politicians failing to step up to the climate challenge, what are the alternatives? One intriguing experiment in direct democracy has just concluded in Ireland, where a government-appointed Citizens’ Assembly composed of a nationally representative group of people selected at random heard detailed expert testimony on climate change from a range of experts. No lobbyists or politicians were allowed in the room.

    The result: 13 recommendations for sharply enhanced climate action were overwhelmingly endorsed early this month, including citizens being personally prepared to pay more tax on high-carbon activities. The recommendations will now be discussed in parliament. Democracy may be dysfunctional, but rumours of its death have, perhaps, been exaggerated.”

    Citizens Assembly anyone?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/10/can-direct-democracy-offer-a-third-way-to-meet-the-climate-challenge
    • Incognito 23.1

      12 November 2017 at 9:29 pm

      Citizens Assembly anyone?

      Yes please!
      • Pat 23.1.1

        12 November 2017 at 9:37 pm

        at least….

        https://www.newstatesman.com/2013/10/science-says-revolt
        • Incognito 23.1.1.1

          12 November 2017 at 10:35 pm

          One more reason why universities should never be silenced as the ‘critic and conscience of society’.
        • greywarshark 23.1.1.2

          13 November 2017 at 1:33 pm

          Thanks Pat
          This is a great place to keep informed. And gives us heart to keep on doing stuff that is purposeful and useful.

          This is an excerpt from Pat’s link to New Statesman (think woman too) at 23.1.1.
          There was one dynamic in the model, however, that offered some hope. Werner termed it “resistance” – movements of “people or groups of people” who “adopt a certain set of dynamics that does not fit within the capitalist culture”.

          According to the abstract for his presentation, this includes “environmental direct action, resistance taken from outside the dominant culture, as in protests, blockades and sabotage by indigenous peoples, workers, anarchists and other activist groups”.
      • greywarshark 23.1.2

        13 November 2017 at 1:35 pm

        Citizens Assembly
        Now +3?
24. swordfish 24

    12 November 2017 at 11:33 pm

    Sharp Earthquake 2 minutes ago here in Wellington
    • exkiwiforces 24.1

      13 November 2017 at 12:08 am

      http://quakelive.co.nz/Browse/?reference=quake.2017p852531

      Just off Arapawa Island at the Northern end of the Sounds in the Cook Strait. I hope its not leading to towards something bigger as I fly into the Wellington next week and I was reading an article today on the net that parts of Wellington still having problems after the last round of the earthquakes. Have been catching up on some podcasts about last the lot of earthquakes and some of the data gathered makes for some interesting reading epseacilly for the lower nth.

      Stay safe
      • swordfish 24.1.1

        13 November 2017 at 11:43 pm

        Cheers, matey

        I suspected Cook Strait-Arapawa Island

        Whenever an earthquake around these parts starts with a sudden explosive bang – rather than a quiet rumble – & produces a jolt that’s both short & sharp = we know it’s more likely to be Northern end of the Sounds

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