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Open mike 13/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 13th, 2021 - 128 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

128 comments on “Open mike 13/07/2021 ”

  1. Jimmy 2

    I thought all the front line people were supposed to be vaccinated months ago? Why is it taking so long when the border is so important. Simple solution is when employees turn up to start their shift, if they can’t show anything to say they are vaccinated, then they are sent home on unpaid leave.

    Covid 19 coronavirus: Securing the weakness at the border … by October – NZ Herald

    • Enough is Enough 2.1

      Complacency.

      Most kiwis seem to have this view that we are happy to wait because COVID hasn’t got into the community. I don’t really know anyone who is overly anxious to get it. Its simply a case of when its my turn, I will. Fucking crazy view but thats New Zealand for you.

      But I agree. It should simply be mandatory for border workers.

    • Treetop 2.2

      Knowing all the reasons why frontline workers are not vaccinated is what I want to know.

      Is it being redeployed, not wanting the vaccine, the roll out, being absent, complacency?

      The vaccine is not 100 per cent.

    • Sanctuary 2.3

      If you’d taken the trouble to watch the PMs post cabinet news conference rather than eagerly consume the pure anti-government propaganda from the Herald your questions would be answered.

      The ZB Taliban at the Herald is running a stridently nakedly anti-government agenda, I wonder how the likes of Simon Wilson (who utterly excoriates national in todays paper https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-judith-collins-leadership-is-1-year-old-and-its-time-her-party-grows-up/5W6IB5MNXBNKWEYHHHZTY2UINI/ – paywalled) can square working for the paper these days.

    • Anne 2.4

      It was claimed by someone on Q&A (I think) that a lot of those not vaccinated are casual port workers. I don’t know how it works, but Covid has likely reduced the number of ships entering our smaller ports so some of these people may not have been working on the wharves for some time. Hence they have missed vaccination opportunities.

      Just a possible reason.

    • KSaysHi 2.5

      Could just be waiting for the next generation vaccine in order to lower the risk to themselves. Nothing wrong with putting yourself first, especially when we know that in the unlikely event things do go wrong you have no insurance cover and a really shit welfare system for the most dependent (mildly impaired are treated much better).

      • McFlock 2.5.1

        Nothing wrong with putting yourself first, indeed. As the scripture says:

        Greater self-love hath no one than to risk a community outbreak for the sake of their addiction to woo-tube channels

        • KSaysHi 2.5.1.1

          Our current mRNA vaccine doesn’t confer sterilised immunity, meaning transmission can still take place so any community benefit is highly questionable. Here is an actual expert (more like an expert of experts imho) talking about just how risky that strategy could be.

          • McFlock 2.5.1.1.1

            Highly questionable, huh. Underlining and everything, too. Sounds bad. “30 minutes of my life” bad? I guess I’ll never find out.

            Being able to ask questions is a bit like transmission still being able to take place: the important factors are not the binary absolutism of existence, but how many and how significantly.

          • Andre 2.5.1.1.2

            An expose of some of vanden Bossche’s dodgy claims.

            https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

            Dunno if it specifically rebuts what’s said in that goldbugger doomie-prep grifter Martenson’s woo-tube clip. I’m not going to waste 30 minutes to watch it to find out.

          • lprent 2.5.1.1.3

            Not really correct.
            Transmission can still take place – yes. The probability of it happening is severely reduced because the immune responses in a vaccinated host kill off a exponential growth in released viruses.

            R5 drops down to something like R0.02 even with delta according to the last set of results I looked at.

            Basically the only people who get infected are likely to be the unvaccinated. It means that people who can’t take vaccines will keep having to protect themselves. Those who choose to not take the vaccine get a genetic winnowing. Not really any one else’s problem – apart from their family and friends.

            Personally I will be pretty unlikely to want to work close to someone who chooses not to vaccinated. They just increase my risks.

            • Andre 2.5.1.1.3.1

              As far as I can tell, the only real contraindication for the Pfizer vaccine is allergic history. And even for those unfortunates, if they’re brave enough to risk an anaphylactic reaction in the knowledge that the medical staff around them will be able to safely deal with it, it’s fine to get the vaccine. Or I would hope here in NZ they would get offered one of the alternatives that doesn’t carry that allergic risk.

              Immunocompromised people can apparently quite safely get the Pfizer vaccine. There’s no kind of organism replication going on that has to suppressed by a functioning immune system. The injected mRNA just does its thing, breaks down, and the detritus gets cleaned away by our body’s regular garbage disposal system.

              It’s just that immunocompromised people are much less likely to get benefit from the vaccine. Since by definition, the vaccine stimulates and trains the immune system, but immunocompromised people have a low to non-functioning immune system. So they are still mostly dependent on the rest of us getting vaccinated for their protection via community immunity.

              The other problem with unvaccinated people getting sick is the effect it has on the medical staff that end up trying to care for them. My rellies overseas are now finding it much tougher psychologically trying to keep an unvaccinated covid sufferer alive now that they’ve had the opportunity to get vaccinated and declined. Because that suffering is just so pointlessly stupid and so easily, cheaply, and safely avoidable.

              • lprent

                Yeah, I felt that after I wrapped my head around the issue.

                The focus for me was a intelligent fellow worker talking to me recently about a meta-study on an alternative treatment for covid-19. I read it and from what he’d said deduced (correctly) that he’d mistaken a reliability of what was measured for a reliability of the effectiveness of the treatment.

                Very small sample sizes, a lot of variation in measurement in the studies, inconsistencies in how the treat was delivered, etc etc meant that the authors assessment of the reliability of the instances in the studies only got up to ‘Moderate’, and many were ‘Very Low’. Moderate was OK for data reliability, but it isn’t midway – it is barely acceptable.

                The largest aggregate sample size was ~1500 for having had the treatment giving death / non-death (ie everyone in the study). And the change on the statistically expected death results was around 5% inside the sample of all people getting the treatment. Maybe verging on significance for something. But given the way the data was collected – probably more significant for evidence of wishful thinking.

                The treatment was been given as a Hail Mary by medical staff who had noting else to give. You’d probably find that aspirin or a source of clean water was more effective. “Coke adds life!” could be the new slogan..

                Afterwards I found that personally I would have a personal reluctance to be anyone who thinks like that after I’d been vaccinated. He’d provide a perfect vector for a new variant to infect me, and the probability was that he’d do it over and over again. His obvious wish to avoid the vaccine was likely to be a clear and present danger to my health – and my taxes.

                • lprent

                  I saw that the major contributor paper to that meta study just got redacted over what essentially looks like made up data.

                  https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

                  That doesn't surprise me. It felt like much of the data used was like a Peter Singer paper on climate change – designed to confuse the credulous who are irrationally unskeptical and prefer to just jump to conspiracy conclusions.

                  It appeared that the authors had run entire paragraphs from press releases and websites about ivermectin and Covid-19 through a thesaurus to change key words. “Humorously, this led to them changing ‘severe acute respiratory syndrome’ to ‘extreme intense respiratory syndrome’ on one occasion,” Lawrence said.

                  The data also looked suspicious to Lawrence, with the raw data apparently contradicting the study protocol on several occasions.

                  “The authors claimed to have done the study only on 18-80 year olds, but at least three patients in the dataset were under 18,” Lawrence said.

                  “The authors claimed they conducted the study between the 8th of June and 20th of September 2020, however most of the patients who died were admitted into hospital and died before the 8th of June according to the raw data. The data was also terribly formatted, and includes one patient who left hospital on the non-existent date of 31/06/2020.”

                  There were other concerns.

      • Andre 2.5.2

        What is the threshold for a second-generation vaccine being considered safe enough? After all, there will be less data on a second generation than a first, simply because it’s newer. Maybe better wait for a third, or fourth generation …

        Meanwhile, in the actual world, we’re at about a year from the start of the phase 3 trials for the Pfizer and moderna mRNA vaccines. Meaning we’ve got a year of safety data for thousands of intensely monitored volunteers. We’re at about 6 months from the mass rollout, so we’ve got safety data for hundreds of millions of vaccinated people, with safety monitoring that has now detected several different kinds of “less than ten per million” side effects.

        Almost all of those extremely rare vaccine side effects resolve in at most a few weeks without causing permanent damage or disability.

        Unlike actual covid, which causes many many long term disabilities (we don’t know how long-term, but definitely many people are still debilitated 18 months after infection) as well as death for about 1% of those infected.

        • lprent 2.5.2.1

          With the mRNA vaccines, it will be transcription ‘code’ to get the body cells to produce fragments of signature virus coating or other characteristics. This gets the immune system to become accustomed to attacking those signatures. This would be a separate booster shot after the original vaccine to target a specific new variant.

          No mixed in other biological. Minimal or no updates to the vaccine production, transports or delivery. Mostly what they will be looking for is interactions with other conditions – ie either effectiveness or complications.

          A much easier test case using the existing or similar test structures. Targeting populations who are already vaccinated and possibly subject to reinvention with a specific c
          variant.

          The Pfizer vaccine booster just announced as being developed is just targeting delta. I would guess that if lamda takes off then that will be next.

          • Andre 2.5.2.1.1

            My comment about second generation being safe enough was aimed at KSaysHi suggesting some unvaccinated people are waiting for more safety information or for a newer purportedly safer vaccine to be released.

            From the comments made by academic family and friends that need a deep understanding of cell biochemistry for their science jobs, I have zero concerns about long term safety issues with the mRNA vaccines.

            The development of mRNA vaccines over the last few decades has also been long enough and careful enough to cover all the concerns I had when I first heard about the technology. Yes, there were serious obstacles to learn how to overcome, including severely problematic immune system reactions. But those reactions were seen within a very short time after vaccination, and there has been no hint of safety problems popping up months or years after vaccination.

            • lprent 2.5.2.1.1.1

              I have zero concerns about long term safety issues with the mRNA vaccines

              I’d take them over normal vaccines any time.

              I have quibbles about the probable misuses of the technology though. I’d imagine that it will eventually be used as a perfect way to cause unexplained deaths. A lot harder to trace than polonium from an umbrella.

    • Patricia Bremner 2.6

      So aprox 5% are not yet vaccinated? New employees, those who can not? seems pretty good really Jimmy.

  2. Jenny how to get there 3

    Pigs in Space

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  3. SPC 4

    Given we no longer allow low skilled migrant labour in, maybe its time we allowed those here already here to shift from these jobs to others – such as in dairy, or horticulture. Then employers would have to offer these jobs to locals who have the option of moving from job to job, if conditions and wages are not competitive.

    • tc 4.1

      listening to a kiwi bank economist predicting wage inflation today and I thought of these low skilled/paid seasonal jobs that would probably require a substitution of improved wages and conditions to attract others available.

      • Descendant Of Smith 4.1.1

        A big issue is accommodation as well. Moving for short-term work means you either give up your accommodation where you are or you pay for two lots at the same time. There is a big risk in giving up where you are now that you might not be able to find accommodation when you return home.Most people have little interest in living in a tent/back-packers/caravan for a few months. Cooking meals after a days work becomes problematic as well even if you do do this.Moving for a permanent full-time job is another kettle of fish entirely.

        • SPC 4.1.1.1

          The migrant currently trapped in their job and earning little more than the food power and rent money may welcome the opportunity – seasonal work jobs can lead to permanent employment, and dairy farm jobs come with housing.

          The jobs the migrants leave can be filled by locals – albeit the employer would have to improve pay and conditions to attract them.

      • SPC 4.1.2

        The migrants may find little left after paying rent in the urban centres – they can at least save in the seasonal work jobs and the dairy farm work often comes with provided housing.

  4. gsays 5

    Yesty arvo on RNZ, there was a great interview with Kasey Edwards about raising girls who will like themselves.

    Most of what I heard can be applied to boys.

    What is proposed builds self regard and resilience (something that seems to be unfashionable in parenting nowadays).

    Sorry, hard to link via my batfone.

  5. Muttonbird 6

    This is it. This shitty little rust bucket is what we’re jeopardising our Covid free country for:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446778/covid-19-13-more-positive-cases-on-quarantined-fishing-vessel-viking-bay

    • Matiri 6.1

      13 plus 2 positive cases – how many crew on that rust bucket? What a miserable existence..

    • Cricklewood 6.2

      Assuming its an NZ flagged vessel I hope worksafe are investigating this.

      As i understand it two crew were allowed to enter NZ and without 14 days quarintine travel to and join the vessel. Thats endangered the entire crew and if one were to die surely whoever is in charge of the boat should be in the gun for prosecution.

    • I guess the extreme left ‘No Borders’ concept is dead then.

      • Incognito 6.3.1

        I guess that you’re trolling.

        • lprent 6.3.1.1

          That all Peter chch usually seems to be able to do (in my experience). A lower form of existence who is just intelligent enough recognise that he is very ignorant, is too lazy to do anything about it, and likes having a good persecution fetish.

          Generally pays to either be ignored. If you want a bit of a amusement you can spank him so that he can writhe in a foul ecstasy at being patted by a dom (his secret shame). But given his disadvantages (namely his personality), if you’re feeling kind – simply being excluded works.

          Of course that is just my opinion. (yes he is usually a troll).

          • Peter chch 6.3.1.1.1

            Spank him? Interesting I have never tried that.

            A troll? No. It may appear that i am, as i certainly do disagree with many opinions on here, but I would absolutely agree with the goals of most on here.

            It is not, for me, an argument about the goals. Its an argument about the means. If that makes me a troll, well you are wrong. But so be It.

            • Incognito 6.3.1.1.1.1

              I’m not into spanking, more into whipping, actually.

              I don’t care whether you are a troll or not. I do care about the fact that some (…) of your comments are troll-like enough to appear on my radar. I couldn’t possibly comment on a persecution fetish that you might have.

              Here’s a tip, more like advice, actually: if you don’t want to appear on the radar of Moderators and/or SYSOP, lift the quality of your comments and make it look like you’re engaging in good faith here, irrespective of whether your opinion is widely agreed or disagreed with (AKA unpopular) here – robust debate is the kaupapa of this site. Put simply: lift your game, thanks.

              The choice is yours; the whip is within reach, always.

              • Peter chch

                Incognito. I am no troll. Yes I disagree with many posts on here. I, in my opinion, am a socialist. I, again in my opinion, engage in good faith. Same goals I think, but different means.

                But let’s be honest. Many people on TS are a little unrealistic as what might work or stick.

                I try to engage in good faith, but some just give abuse in response.

                Whipping? See my next post!

                • Peter chch

                  All this talk about whipping and spanking! Well, my partner and I went to a ‘bar’ off K road which sounded nice. The entrance fee seemed a bit steep but we were under drink. Full on sex club. Unbelievable .We enjoyed our time there. Did not partake. But I must, opened my eyes.

              • Peter chch

                I have had time to think. I will forever leave TS. I see now that TS Sees ‘democracy ‘pr debate or dissenting views as a threat, not an opportunity

                All the best, in the extremist void that will forever be limited to shouting that noone listened to

  6. Jenny how to get there 7

    Saharafornication

    The vicious cycle of the climate crisis has merged with a vicious cycle of inequity in the region. Racial disparities in access to shade and air conditioning are increasingly becoming dangerous, even deadly….

    …..Farm workers die of heat at roughly 20 times the national rate, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/10/california-central-valley-extreme-heat-race?fbclid=IwAR0WflCl3Kmi7oNqj2GhM617xl7rV8Wf43K-U1cnGDgOEiCp6MB6mV89DWI

  7. KSaysHi 8

    The antieviction thing has always favored certain elements in our society. They get higher levels of subsidies from those who can’t get social housing. Consequences are experienced by everyone who is nearby but not the cause of the issues and that has got to stop.

    The witness alleges he is being subjected to regular nighttime gang intimidation and threats.
    He also told Hawke’s Bay Today that Kāinga Ora had told him his request was low priority.
    However, a Kāinga Ora spokesperson told Hawke’s Bay Today that the organisation was now “moving quickly to help our customer and provide options from which they can choose to help keep them safe”.
    “We’ll continue to work with police on this matter too.”

    That’s right….help the tenant to help himself by making choices! How empowering [sarc]

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hawkes-bay-kainga-ora-tenant-nails-windows-shut-to-protect-himself-from-gang-intimidation/JMDJKAHIJXH56LZQVYFSWX2NRE/

  8. greywarshark 9

    National Library sending 600,000 books to the Philippines to be digitised

    http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=137587 Real books vs Pixels

    How to knife your ‘clients’ and your very job in the back! A ‘librarian’ sending books owned to be digitised instead of going all-out to support the excellent system we have of reading physical books, the whole literate and skilled community behind it, and the way that books encouraging imagination, discussion, are housed in places that draw communities, and are artifacts that represent humanity and serve it, in a way that bloody tech doesn’t (whether covered in red stuff or not, and of course that description is an oxymoron because tech is bloodless and dead). Stream of consciousness?

    • Totally agree Grey. Digital books are great for reference or technical things, but not for ‘reading’.

      Can read and immerse oneself in a physical book, but digital? Not really.

    • Incognito 9.2

      Meh, the comments are more informative than that article. Good move, IMO, and for the record, I love real books.

  9. greywarshark 10

    I have written a short comment on Daily Review for Mon. 12/7. This went up at 10.22am with awaiting moderation, then vanished so I sent another one after it at 10.37am, same message, has vanished also. Nothing controversial about either of them. So where, what?

    • Incognito 10.1

      Patience is a virtue.

      Moderation
      Moderation is mainly used to control spam comments that do not get caught by the anti-spam tools. This means that you might get caught in it if you use some words, have an IP range that overlaps a spam source, or your IP comes from certain geographical regions.

      If you get moderated and don’t have a good reason why, don’t get too alarmed. It is probably the spam trap. Usually your message will get approved shortly, but sometimes during weekends and overnight it may take a while.

      https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#moderation

  10. greywarshark 11

    Are we there yet? Are we at the hopeless bottom yet? Are we at the stage where we realise there is a serious problem yet?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/whoseatingnewzealand/446687/us-buying-up-our-primary-industries

    United States citizens and companies are buying up New Zealand land for farming, forestry and wine-making, an RNZ analysis reveals.

    Almost 180,000 hectares of farming land was purchased or leased by foreign interests between 2010 and 2021.

    During the 11-year period almost 460,000ha – a little under the size of the Auckland region – shifted out of New Zealand control through purchases, leases or rights to take forestry. For simplicity’s sake, this is referred to as bought land throughout this article.

    More than 70,000ha of land was bought for dairying operations and more than 100,000 for farming other types of animals, such as beef, sheep or deer.

    It seems that farming entities have control of the country, so no wonder we can’t get anything done for ordinary people, who now can’t even own a tiny bit of land! Perhaps Bill Sutch had to be headed off, with the way that he was encouraging us to make new pathways, go in new directions, explore other options. Think.

  11. Joe90 12

    Barking.

    State Republican lawmakers around the country are pushing bills — at least one of which has become law — that would give unvaccinated people the same protections as those surrounding race, gender and religion.

    https://www.axios.com/republicans-coronavirus-vaccines-discrimination-law-states-533503fb-fa83-43d0-bd51-2d614483d241.html

    • Andre 12.1

      Way to show Chyyy-nuh who’s boss! They don’t need no stinkin’ protection from the Chyyy-nuh virus!

      • joe90 12.1.1

        GOP class. (vile human, nsfw)

        • Andre 12.1.1.1

          Yeah, you wouldn’t want to drive near her. For starters, she’s on the wrong side of the road that she’s not paying any attention to.

          Or maybe she just can’t post the video the right way around.

  12. Jimmy 14

    Some people are not fit to be landlords. They should name and shame the landlord.

    Auckland landlord who called tenant a ‘bloody Māori’ must pay $8900 in damages | Stuff.co.nz

    Not sure why but I don’t seem to be able to paste links anymore.

    • Peter chch 14.1

      True, but some tenants are not fit to be tenants. They also need to be named, shamed, and excluded.

      • arkie 14.1.1

        Yes, let’s actively make more people unhoused by excluding them from rentals. /s

        People don’t need to be landlords, but everyone needs somewhere to live.

      • Incognito 14.1.2

        All people living in NZ have the human right to adequate housing. What you’re proposing would contravene this human right.

      • Muttonbird 14.1.3

        Umm. What’s left below tenant in the hierarchy of housing?

        The street, I guess.

      • greywarshark 14.1.4

        They also need to be named, shamed, and excluded have special units built in concrete (hoseable) in industrial areas where they can be kept under curfew at night. simple bedding and facilities suitable for the half-crazed person.

        That’s dealt with the present crop. The ones coming forward can be changed by their parents entering a program run under suitable cultural levels that assists parents in their role, helps them as needed, and enables them to have a happy life bringing up children in a kindly and firm way with goals for the parents and little ones for the children, like pocket money for doing tasks as part of family life. This outrageous system actually had been proved to work many decades ago, but has fallen into disuse, now needing revival. And those in the system would be offered free skills training, and on completion a job and income equal to a living wage. Also holidays at adventure camps once or twice a year. Incentives, in-sense-activities! If a significant percentage could be enthused to start this, with parents as role models, in ten years there would be a difference growing exponentiallly.

      • Jester 14.1.5

        I agree Peter, tenants that purposely trash houses should be named and shamed and excluded from other rentals.

    • lprent 14.2

      I’ll have a look at it soonish. Any day now my head will revert from last weeks bug and switch from birdbrain to crazy good programmer again. 😈

  13. Chris 15

    Disabled kids missing out at local schools is well documented, just as parents paying for extra teacher aide hours is common practice because of the limited resources governments past and present put in to ensuring disabled kids get a fair go.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/125734372/boys-teacher-aide-cut-off-after-parents-told-theyre-not-allowed-to-fund-it

    Where the heck is the Human Rights Commission when it comes to this problem that’s been around now for decades? Governments for years have been saying that disabled children have access to the same learning opportunities as all other students, but we know that’s not true. Schools themselves say they’re woefully under-resourced.

    All the rhetoric around how well the system’s working for disabled students shows how far the government’s head is buried in the sand. It beggars belief that despite everything we know this government’s now preventing parents topping up teacher aide hours, as if it isn’t needed. It’s a tragedy, of course, that it’s only the kids of those who can afford to do this who have access to crucial resources, but to now ban parents from doing this shows just how sensitive the government is to the criticisms. The government’s position on this whole issue is just diabolical.

    • David 15.1

      Where the heck is the Human Rights Commission

      Too busy making friends with the gangs. Want some money from this government? Join a gang.

    • Sacha 15.2

      Govts are very comfortable with HRC delays. https://ihc.org.nz/ihcs-education-complaint

      In 2008, IHC lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission, arguing that children with a range of disabilities experience discrimination at their local school.

      n April 2014 IHC’s legal counsel, Frances Joychild QC, filed an amended claim with the Human Rights Review Tribunal.

      In early 2015, the Human Rights Review Tribunal held a preliminary hearing into the complaint after the Attorney General applied to strike out several of IHC’s claims. Two and a half years later we are still awaiting a decision from that preliminary hearing. Confidential discussions about the complaint between IHC, the Ministry of Education, the Education Review Office, and the Education Council over four days in 2016 failed to reach a settlement.
      The legal case is effectively stalled until the preliminary decision is released by the Human Rights Review Tribunal, then IHC will be in a queue for a hearing that may be years away. The delay is because the Tribunal is very thinly resourced and has experienced a huge rise in cases in recent years. Despite IHC raising this backlog with the Minister of Justice, no action has been taken to address it.

      • Chris 15.2.1

        I think this might be the result of that preliminary hearing?

        http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/download.cgi/cgi-bin/download.cgi/download/nz/cases/NZHRRT/2020/47.pdf

        It’s preposterous that the government is even defending this. Full access to the curriculum for disabled students is government policy, so surely one would think that when instances of discrimination arise government would welcome guidance on how to combat it. But no, ‘all litigation must be defended even if we agree with the claims made against us’ – such a silly attitude to take. This surely must be a situation where the parties should get the declaration by consent, and then work together to stamp out the discrimination? Anything other than this highlights the government’s two-faced position on disabled kids’ access to education, and the reality of it being quite happy with the status quo.

  14. Anker 16

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2021/07/13/women-will-not-be-silenced/

    so SUFW put up a sign saying “women, adult human female” and it gets taken down.

    on another post I put up a video clip of a women in California complaining cause a trans women was naked with their penis out in a women’s spa around women and girls.

    we as women are supposed to put up with the latter while there is an outcry leading to the removal of a sign with the dictionary definition of women. WTF!

    if this concerns you even a little do think of going to the SUFW talk this Thursday 6 30pm at the Michael Fowler centre

    • solkta 16.1

      A private spa and a private media company find your ideas offensive, so what.

      • greywarshark 16.1.1

        Anker

        It seems that the new aristocrats can push the peasants off their commons again. Sexuality now is not something that you have as a mainstream bodily natural condition, its a matter of choice now in the disintegrating society of the 21st century. Nothing can be relied on that once was sure.

        And the fact that Christians and right wingers are said to be involved in SUFW (Speak up For Women) doesn’t lend it lustre, but for once they have a point.

      • I Feel Love 16.1.2

        The private spa was/is inclusive of trans people Anker.

        • Anker 16.1.2.1

          Yes I am aware the private spa was/is inclusive of trans people. I think trans people should be allowed to attend a spa. But not in the women’s only space.

          But a lot of women and the mothers of girls were very uncomfortable with a trans women, naked with their penis out in a women’s private space.

          Do you not understand why that is? Do you think women and girls just have to suck it up? Why should women have to accommodate to something they are uncomfortable with?

          • solkta 16.1.2.1.1

            Why can you not understand that it is a private business and so they can have whatever policy they like. They could choose to have no gendered areas. Why should you get to bully them into your way of thinking?

            • Anker 16.1.2.1.1.1

              Solkta, I have not been in contact with the Wi spa. So it is incorrect to suggest that I am bullying them.

              In NZ under the human rights act, it specifies that women have the right to private change room facilities for public decency and safety.

              As a woman I am defending my right for this to persist. And some of women are feeling bullied to give up this human right, should trans activists require us to give up our private spaces.

              • solkta

                You are part of the international whinge fest so yes you are indirectly bullying them. But apparently that is OK but not for people with an opposing view to complain to an advertising company.

            • weka 16.1.2.1.1.2

              Afaik California law forces Wi Spa to allow male bodied people into the women’s section if the male bodied person identifies are a woman. I’m still unclear if the trans woman has to have a GRC or can simply say at that reception that they are a woman. I’m guessing in practice it’s the latter. What this means is that if someone in California set up a spa for women only, they would be legally and socially prohibited from excluding male bodied people who ID as women (TW or men).

              “They could choose to have no gendered areas.”

              Afaik Wi Space separates their spaces by sex not gender, so they already have no gendered spaces. If they had gendered spaces, there’d be a non-binary or GNC space. Which is a not a bad idea alongside single sex spaces.

              Obviously being all mixed sex spaces wouldn’t work for a Korean spa that has cultural practices of nakedness segregated by sex. And equally obviously it doesn’t work for many women.

              • solkta

                They are obviously doing by gender if they allow a woman with a penis in the women’s area.

                • weka

                  I haven’t been able to figure out what the California statue says exactly, tried reading it myself and couldn’t make sense of it.But if you are saying that TW are allowed entry to the women’s space on the basis of gender not sex, are you saying that TW are not female?

                  • weka

                    Maybe someone else can make sense of this.

                    “In a statement to Los Angeles about this weekend’s incident, Wi Spa points to California Civil Code 51 (b), which makes discriminating against trans and other gender non-conforming people in business establishments illegal in the state.”

                    https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/

                    “(b) All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, sexual orientation, citizenship, primary language, or immigration status are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.”

                    (e) For purposes of this section:

                    (5) “Sex” includes, but is not limited to, pregnancy, childbirth, or medical conditions related to pregnancy or childbirth. “Sex” also includes, but is not limited to, a person’s gender. “Gender” means sex, and includes a person’s gender identity and gender expression. “Gender expression” means a person’s gender-related appearance and behavior whether or not stereotypically associated with the person’s assigned sex at birth.

                    (6) “Sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, sexual orientation, citizenship, primary language, or immigration status” includes a perception that the person has any particular characteristic or characteristics within the listed categories or that the person is associated with a person who has, or is perceived to have, any particular characteristic or characteristics within the listed categories.”

                    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=CIV&sectionNum=51

                    • weka

                      Looks like there are no laws to protect single sex spaces.

                      “There is no specific legislation that mandates for single-sex spaces and there are no laws that protect, for example, single-sex bathrooms or locker rooms in public places. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 has a provision for sex-segregated bathrooms, but the regulatory agency produced regulations on “gender-separated” bathrooms instead.”

                      https://www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/california

                    • McFlock

                      That particular stature is basic non-discrimination. So a business isn’t allowed to refuse service on those grounds. Doesn’t say what facilities people are supposed to use.

                      It looks to me like a bit of the old “not my rule, it’s [the widest possible interpretation of] the law, sorry about that [not really sorry because I wanted it to happen anyway]”. Every bouncer who’s worked a door knows a variation of that one.

                      The closest I’ve found is a rule around single-occupant bathrooms needing to be indicated as all-gender. Maybe there’s something more substantial, maybe not.

                    • weka

                      does that mean Wi Spa couldn’t stop men from going into the women’s section?

                    • McFlock

                      Heh. Bit of a language issue there.I suspect (and I can’t emphasise that enough, this just seems to me to be a plausible way out to stop being the battleground of a global political shitfight) that Wi Spa are interpreting that specific legislation to mean that while they might be able to stop “men” going into the “womens'” section, they’re not entitled to discriminate against transmen and transwomen.

                      However, some websites say that for employees there should be single-occupant gender neutral facilities available for people who want additional privacy, but nobody can be forced to use them. I.e. trans people can use whatever one they want, and if someone has a problem with it then the person with the problem has an alternative.

                    • weka

                      I was thinking more generally, that if there is no law protecting single sex spaces and there is a law protecting people from discrimination on the basis of sex (assuming Ca legislators still actually know what sex is), then is there anything to stop men from going into women’s spaces?

                      In the UK, there is law against discrimination but there are also exemptions where warranted. This is what gives legal right to women’s spaces, even excluding TW with a gender recognition cert afaik.

                      It’s this exemption that Stonewall UK has been lying about in its advice to orgs that it sanctions as trans friendly, and Stonewall has been lobbying to have the exemptions removed. (that’s how I understand it). This is at the heart of the whole shit fight (although not the whole of it)

                      NZ law seems to be similar but haven’t looked at it closely.

                    • McFlock

                      Dunno about “spaces” generally, but the Ca restroom requirements state “for each sex”. Although your c&p above also includes (but not limited to) “gender” in “sex”.

                      So yes, men can be stopped from going into women’s restrooms. But there would be exceptions to that if your definition of “men” includes transwomen, because that does not match the definition of “men” as a subset of “sex” according to the Californian legislature.

                      Interesting. Wi Spa might have been right in it being the law (depending on what actually happened).

                    • weka

                      if we put aside toilets for a moment, and look at other women’s spaces, my reading of the above is that there is no law that says there is an exemption for women from the anti-discrimination laws (except where other laws have been created eg the restroom one) eg women’s refuges or someone running a women’s health group. Men could legally try to access those spaces and not be denied on the basis of sex. This is of course bizarre and it won’t surprise me if I am reading this wrong, but we are talking about the US.

                      And yes, my understanding is that Wi Spa acted in accordance with Ca law. What I don’t know is whether self ID happens in the Wi Spa reception or if someone has to have a state certification of gender ID. The thing pertinent to NZ here is that no-one currently is going to ask for the certificate at the reception desk, even if they think the person is a man. Self ID as a technical approach to birth cert changes shifts the overton window so that self ID becomes a matter of what the person says in the moment across society. How left wing people can believe this won’t be abused by men is beyond me.

                      (And as above, crazy fucking language in the Ca legislation).

                    • McFlock

                      As you say, there might be other laws or case law that we, as NZ googlers, might not know about.

                      As for your final point, sure some guy will try it sooner or later. There’s no limit to the arseholery of humanity. But at the same time, using one of the innumerable other ways to refuse service to an individual you don’t like the look of is not discrimination on the basis of gender self-id, especially if your establishment is trans-accepting.

                      And that’s if one argues that all one needs for gender self-id is for me to yell “I’m a girl now” to go wherever I want. If I did that wearing a three piece suit with not so much as a doctor’s appointment to talk about transitioning or what have you, the honesty of my claim could well be challenged. And being America, I’d be surprised if it hasn’t (especially as at the NZ uni I worked at a local dickhead for years kept trying to run for womens’ rights officer, and complained about sex discrimination because we wouldn’t let him). It’s quite rare for a loophole that obvious to exist for years without being tested and then patched in response to the test.

        • weka 16.1.2.2

          then they should tell their female customers that they can no longer provide single sex spaces. California law prohibits them from excluding trans women, and any men that ID as a woman, from the women’s space. I’m under the impression that many women don’t know this. Likewise in NZ if the govt passes self ID law without consulting women. We will end up with social changes that most NZers don’t realise is happening. That alone should be a red flag.

          The Adult, Human, Female banner is on point about that.

      • Anker 16.1.3

        The media company were find to put the sign up until they got complaints. If they geniunely found the sign offensive they wouldn’t have put it up.

        What is so offensive about the dictionary definition of women?

        • solkta 16.1.3.1

          Go Media’s general manager, Simon Teagle, told 1 NEWS it removed the billboard as soon as it started fielding calls from offended New Zealanders.

          “We believe it maybe in breach of ASA codes, and therefore the advertising material in breach of our contract. We have subsequently notified the advertiser. We have placed the contract with the advertiser on hold until a clear determination from the ASA is provided.

          “Go Media is an inclusive, locally-owned New Zealand business and we support all communities. While we believe in freedom of speech, we do not condone content that upsets our community. We apologise unreservedly for any distress this may have caused anyone, and remedied the situation as soon we could.”

          https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/anti-trans-billboard-removed-wellingtons-cbd

  15. greywarshark 17

    The Conversation is ‘helping’ NZ get informed about sea level rise in a study co-led by Tim Naish and Richard Levy called the NZ SeaRise programme.

    These two men are glaciologists and may be looking at the changing earth over the last 40 million years. I suggest that they lack the urgency of those worrying about whether they are going to be hit by a combination of seal level rise, storm surge and increased ground water arising from a heavy rain ‘event’ around their house, and just as importantly on the business decisions of their insurers and their actuaries. However if they can get some good theoretical statistics for the insurers, that will be most useful.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/446809/significant-number-of-new-zealanders-overestimate-sea-level-rise-and-that-could-stop-them-from-taking-action

    • Anker 17.1

      https://speakupforwomen.nz/speak-up-for-women-campaigners/

      This is who SUFW members are. Not christians or right wingers. Feminists who are committed to women

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        Thanks for that Anker. It’s ironic that today’s feminists can’t support other women who are just being themselves

      • Sacha 17.1.2

        Committed to females. At least be honest about that.

        • weka 17.1.2.1

          Most people still use the word woman to mean female. In English we don’t usually call women females except in specific situations. I wouldn’t for instance say see those two females standing over there, I’d say see those two women standing over there.

          • Sacha 17.1.2.1.1

            We have had this conversation. If you want to exclude trans women from things, then you are campaigning for females. Be honest about it.

            • weka 17.1.2.1.1.1

              Scratching my head at that. Where’s the dishonesty? Women and trans women, it’s really simple. I want women to be able to retain single sex spaces. I want trans women to have access to their own spaces. I will support them to have that in society.

              I’m not sure why you say there is dishonestly in my position when you seem to be presenting a semantic argument around the words female and woman. Maybe I’m missing something?

              I’m not absolutist about eg I’m fine with TW using whatever toilet works for them. But we need to have the debate openly about what this means, and how it impacts on women as well as trans people. That’s where the dishonesty is currently, and the attacks on SUFW will just make that worse.

              I also want to exclude men (males), from those single sex spaces.

              What I and many women are also not willing to do is give up language that we need to talk about our own experiences, especially politically.

              • solkta

                The way you are using woman and trans woman does not make sense. Woman is the noun and cis and trans are adjectives, they name an attribute of the noun. Woman is the set and cis woman and trans woman are subsets. If you think the term “woman” should be reserved for females then you should object to the use of “trans woman”. It is really simple, basic level grammar.

                • weka

                  it does make sense in that you understood exactly what I meant. As most people will also understand exactly what I meant because that’s how English is used and understood in context.What you are saying is that how I am using language doesn’t suit your politics. If you want to change current use of the English language for political reasons, then stand up and make the argument.

                  My problem with your position is that what you are saying sits alongside women being told they’re not allowed to talk about being female as well. This is why many women who were once ok with sharing more with trans women, are now insisting on retaining the meaning of the word woman for adult human females. eg refusing to be seen as a subset. Trans woman is a noun.

                  • solkta

                    Just because i can understand what you are saying does not mean that i think you are using language in an honest or grammatically coherent way.

                    I have not said anything about the word female so you can refrain from putting words in my mouth.

                    • weka

                      Maybe you are unaware then of the volatile political context in which you are arguing that woman should no longer mean adult female.

                      As I said, make the political argument.

                      My grammar is perfectly understandable and in line with common usage. You are arguing to change that usage, but I’m not yet seeing the argument for why.

                • Sacha

                  Same dynamic as white people claiming the word ‘New Zealander’ as an ethnicity. Not defensible.

                  • weka

                    How is it the same? You’re asserting it is but not explaining how.

                    • solkta

                      ‘New Zealander’ is used to mean white person and then for all other varieties an adjective is added.

                    • solkta

                      but hey it is a common usage so i guess that makes it OK.

                    • weka

                      ‘New Zealander’ is used to mean white person and then for all other varieties an adjective is added.

                      Ok, but that’s identity not ethnicity. I know very few people that use ‘New Zealander’ to mean white. It’s not used that way in law, media, education, science, medicine, or every day language. Most people I know when talking about biologically female people would use the word woman in most contexts, and this is still the main usage in law, media, education, science, medicine.

                      And again, if you want to change the meaning of the word woman for political reasons, front up and make the political argument to society at large and let us have a conversation about it. Challenge the no debate position, and let people talk about it.

                      Simply saying, or just implying, it’s bigotry to not use it the way you want is a democratic fail.

                    • McFlock

                      . I know very few people that use ‘New Zealander’ to mean white. It’s not used that way in law, media, education, science, medicine, or every day language.

                      But it happens enough to occasionally skew data gathered in those fields. Back when using paper forms, “NZ European / Pakeha” scribbled out and “NEW ZEALANDER!!!” carved into the page with biro was not uncommon. And it happened enough on the census in the early oughts that statsnz had to crank out an analysis on it (the rest of the forms mostly matched those of pakeha middle aged male mid-high income small business owners, from what I recall).

                      But I suspect the parallel isn’t each term’s use in administrative paperwork so match as the use in public by some smaller groups to dogwhistle to the converted and to try to spread their message of alienation.

                    • Sacha

                      Solkta and McFlock have explained it adequately. I am no longer prepared to indulge people who want a 101 level conversation about a topic they supposedly know about.

            • weka 17.1.2.1.1.2

              (seriously, I don’t understand what your argument is here).

  16. Sacha 18

    There are rules

  17. Anker 19

    Sacha, you can correct me all you like, but I am sticking with the language I am comfortable with.

    I believe biological sex trumps gender ideology. I believe trans gender people deserve the same rights as anyone else, but that doesn’t include the right to have me agree to their language requirements.

    I am a biological women. Always have been always will be. I am not a cis women, just a women.

    trans used to be referred to as transvestites or trans sexual. I understand they want to be referred to as trans men and women and that is fine by me. They have a right to identify as the opposite gender to their natal sex, no problem.

    if a transgender individual asks me to use their pronouns, out of courtesy I would likely do my best to remember to do that. If they demanded I did, maybe not so much, it would depend.

    women’s rights to private spaces and to women only sporting competitions are set out in the Human Rights Act 1993 and I will defend those rights vigorously

  18. greywarshark 20

    I have just read a book by Anne Perry set around rape of women and the difficulties of them at that time, in the 1890s, being safe from it, and being able to look for control and justice. because of the deep disgust felt by everybody in society about it, and the way they tended to include the victim in these emotions. In the first fifty or so pages she describes the problem well. It's 'Midnight at Marble Arch' and is quite a complicated plot, with a number of themes.

    And to try and understand what women think about sex, there are two novellists specialising in stories which often have a soft porn centre, who seem to be popular, Jude Deveraux and Linda Howard. Men might learn something about women's ideas, and women might ponder on what these books indicate is missing in their lives.

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