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Open mike 13/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 13th, 2019 - 123 comments
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123 comments on “Open mike 13/09/2019”

  1. vaping is to ciggy-smoking – as methadone is to heroin..

    the cure is as bad as the illness..

    (in methadones' case – the cure is worse – as it is more addictive/harder to kick than smack…)

    and in the case of vaping products – all big-tobacco/the nicotine pushers have done is clean up the additives in their product – and change the delivery vehicle/mode..

    (the 'smack' is still there..!..eh..?)

    i have viewed the rise of vaping nicotine with the same dismay as i have long viewed the peddling of methadone – as some kind of cure..

    it ain't…

    • Sabine 1.1

      i agree with the vaping but

      methadone was / is a lifesaver for quite a few people i know here in NZ that would have otherwise already been found dead in a ditch somewhere due to an overdose.

      but then, nothing in life is without consequences.

      I am still waiting however for someone to write the same stuff about alcohol then they do about cigarettes/vapes/methadone/weed etc etc etc etc. But then that is not gonna happen cause beer and wine and spirits are god given or something – never mind the many many death that happen every year due to people being under influence of booze.

      also just a gentle reminder to those who forgot.

      There is no cure for life. At the end of your life you die.

      • phillip ure 1.1.1

        @ sabine..

        and those people you knowwho were 'life-saved' by methadone..

        are no doubt still addicted to methadone..?

        'that's 'cos methadone is a life-sentence – as opposed to heroin addiction – which is usually transitory – and has an age cut-off point (when people tire of the lifestyle – decide to kick – usually late 30's..)

        methadone is for life – that's 'cos it is more addictive than heroin..

        and here is the kicker (or not)..the hardest part of attempting to kick methadone is the last bit – ppl cut down – but no difference – still addicted..can't kick it..

        that explains that early morning rush of grey-haired people @ pharmacies – these are ppl who signed up to the methadone-bullshit-'cure' way back when their hair had not a glimmer of grey..

        that is what a (state-sanctioned/encouraged) life-long addiction looks like – on the hoof..

        another interesting factoid re heroin/methadone..

        is that cold-turkey withdrawals from heroin (wot i did) feel like a form of living death – but they do not kill you..

        cold-turkey withdrawals from methadone – can kill you..

        i hope i have managed to make the case the cure is worse than the illness it purports to treat..

        and this awareness of the false-message in methadone – as some sort of 'cure' – tempers my view of this fiendishly clever re-packaging/re-marketing – to the young (under the guise of a 'cure) – of their product – by big-tobacco..

        clever devils – aren't they..?

        • Sabine 1.1.1.1

          I am gonna be real polite and put it into plain english.

          IF you want to be accurate:

          They are still addicted to Heroin, Meth, Cocaine ………..

          and

          methadone is MEDICATION that keeps them of that sauce that would years ago have killed them years ago and it keeps them on that thin line that allows them to live an almost normal life.

          btw, going cold turkey on many medications can kill you. Damn, that life/Living thing is a bitch, ey, it always ends in death.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1

            @ sabine..

            well…i guess that is one way of looking at it…as medication for life..

            (i call that lifelong addiction..that is worse than the illness..)

            but i wd also note that cocaine was the easiest to kick of all things i have kicked..

            so putting someone on a life-long addiction to methadone – 'cos they are using a bit of coke..?

            that is utter fucken madness..

            same with meth – harder to kick than coke – but roughly in the same family (stimulants)

            so yr cure for that is a lifelong addiction to a narcotic..?..

            that also is fucken madness – writ large..

            which brings us to heroin – where i have already detailed – is less of an evil/less addictive..than methadone…

            so yr cure for that is a drug harder to kick…and for life..?

            more utter fucken madness..

            • OnceWasTim 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Well they don't call it liquid handcuffs for nothing – and that's all before we get into patients diverting so that they can buy a bit of that other tooth rot 'P'.

              I guess on the positive side, the trite old "harm reduction" mantra does have some value: less chemist shops being knocked over or held up and the crimes associated with it all are usually kept within (except of course those driving at break neck speeds in order to hook up with the carpark diverters)

              You're not an ex-smoker btw are you Phil? Nothing worse than the son of a preacher man trying to attract a flock of angels.

              • ex tobacco and crack-cocaine smoker – current pot smoker..

                does that discount my opinions somehow..?

                • not at all. I'm just pleased to see you handling it all – even though I only know you in passing from decades ago. I've just learned personally that it's best to leave the preaching to the likes of Ross Bell who seems to me to be nobody's fool from what I can see

                  We've had decades of fucked drug policy in this country over years and years and fucking years – as I think I've seen you describe accuratelyin the past. We've learned nothing, and we are where we are now with things at there worst.

                  We've shut down just about every rehab facility that ever did any good over the years, and those that remain either really struggle, or are for the wealthy. In the early years, we cracked down on opium. Then we cracked down on smack – so 'homebake' became a problem.

                  I'm fully aware that every clamp down that's occurred has brought about something worse till we are where we're at today – i.e. a fucking brain frier 'P' epidemic (as bad if not worse than glue or petrol sniffers) with entirely inadequate rehab facilities to cope with it.- Did you know that they're actually giving methadone to P Freaks as some sort of solution?)

                  I'm only thankful I never succumbed to the worst of it – but as you know, you can't choose your rellies – even if you have had to clean up the fucking mess afterwards (like the lawyers bills, disposing of the sawn off shotguns, and then nursing them through HepC and their liver cancer until they kark it). The depressing thing is that there's another lot on the way that I've learned to steer well away from.

                  I think it's probably just all going to have to play out – as is the problem with piss (I live next door to 3 lots of Uni students with all the Fri and Sat nite preloading, and watching them stand in the lounge window with a P pipe in their gobs as though they're invincible and no-one can see them).

                  Enuff of the rave tho' eh?

    • marty mars 1.2

      yep vaping is the biggest load of bullshit out – people have been sucked in severely and the cost will be high. But hey at least no one will have a ciggie ffs

      Auckland secondary school principals are backing the government's plan to ban most vape flavours and say vaping is reaching epidemic levels among their students.

      They warn that without firm action New Zealand will have a new generation of people addicted to nicotine.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/115765872/vaping-a-serious-problem-in-some-auckland-schools–principals

      • The Al1en 1.2.1

        So the answer for existing smokers isn't the safer nicotine delivery vaping offers and the high success rates of people quitting altogether through using it, but to stick with the fags?

        • phillip ure 1.2.1.1

          so you have a source for yr claim of this 'high success rate in quitting altogether' using vaping..?

          or is that just an orifice-pluck from you..?

          or you just parroting the spin/bullshit big-tobacco has used – to much/such success/effect..?

          which of those three..?

          ('im picking three linking to two..eh..?..)

          • The Al1en 1.2.1.1.1

            Come on Phil, orifice plucks are so last time before you were banned, so let's stick to less cliche and more big boy words. You know me by now. I wouldn't state it if I couldn't back it up.

            What has big tobacco got to do with the growth of our local vape market? From a stuff report I read dated August 2018, the big players hadn't yet entered the scene here.

            Im at work, on a tablet, so no links. You can, of course, google it if you're able.

            • phillip ure 1.2.1.1.1.1

              i must bend the knee to the extensive research you do to back up yr case –

              a stuff report (heh..!..in itself..!..) from over a year ago..?

              right – ho..!

              carry-on..!

              heh..!

              • The Al1en

                Highlighting how big tobacco weren't big players in the kiwi vape market 1year ago, totally destroying your argument. wink

                • Alice Tectonite

                  Things have changed since then, Philip Morris is well involved in vape pushing now (particularly targeting those living in poverty).

                  See for example RNZ's recent smoke and mirrors series of articles.

                  • The Al1en

                    Indeed, and targeting the poor with expensive alternatives to smoking ciggies is wrong, especially when for $35 someone can get a starter kit, usb charger cord and a free liquid.

                • oh..!..it's 'destroyed'..

                  best you email the minister telling her no need for this legislation..eh..?

                  just..'cos'…eh..?

                  • The Al1en

                    Your argument how big tobacco just cleaned up their product and changed the delivery method, even though it was being done locally without their input, before they entered the market, yeah, totally destroyed. Lol

                    Im okay with more regulation, though not sure flavours should be banned in an adult product because kids could use them illegally. What next? No black current in my cider? Lime in my lager? Coke with my vodka?

                    • i understand auckland is one of the most expensive cities in the world to buy coke..

                      it does go well with vodka tho'..

                      [lprent: Please enter your handle your handle again – it appears you have lost at least part of your cookies (I enjoyed writing that – pleasant and without any sarcasm). ]

        • marty mars 1.2.1.2

          might be your answer I spose

          follow the money and that will tell you all you need to know

          • The Al1en 1.2.1.2.1

            For the benefit of good faith debate, you could respond to the point, and state why smokers shouldn't choose the safer option.

            • marty mars 1.2.1.2.1.1

              most vapers I know still smoke ciggies

              big smoke have just introduced a more socially acceptable nicotine delivery device – not sure why the ugly decaying pictures on ciggie packets aren't on vape stuff.

              personally I don't really care if adults smoke themselves silly apart from the addiction to a toxic substance issue which I would support recovery from 110%n including using my tax dollars to do it – adults are adults. But kids I do care about and the marketing of this to them is big time off – non smokers are vaping now, young non smokers are chucking nicotine in and getting addicted cos that is the plan.
              Hopefully that is good faith enough for you lol

              • The Al1en

                Most vapers I know don't smoke fags anymore, a lot of them don't even have nicotine in their juice anymore, so weaned of the drug, just not the habit. The only person I know who still smokes despite having a vape supplied by the dub, has lung cancer and just won't stop.

                I don't doubt that the tobacco companies are now getting involved and going after their share of the market, but it's incorrect to say they have been the driving force behind the uptake of vaping in NZ til this point. The local merchants have been doing that for themselves for a few years without funding, support or influence of big tobacco.

                The advice given by the medics is if you didn't smoke, don't start vaping, and I agree. I certainly don't want to see kids do it, like I don't like them drinking or doing other drugs like weed. It's r18 in the shops for a reason so the onus is on the retailer to observe the rules. It's regulated like booze, and as kids still drink illegally, Some will vape.

                And yeah, much better, ta.

                • marty mars

                  sure vape away with no nicotine I believe you lol – up there with tobacco companies aren't involved with the rise of vaping – fantasy my naive friend

                  like I said vape away – hope you aren't involved in pushing the products though cos that would be sad

                  • The Al1en

                    Not me, I suck that nicotine down at 12mg a go, but people do go with just the juice. Inclined ex smokers like to wean themselves off, reducing the content as they go. I guess the vendors wouldn't sell it if no one bought it.

                    Again, I didn’t say tobacco companies aren’t pushing it, I stated their involvement, exactly that above. My point of difference is they didn’t lead the market here, locals did, before nicotine was even allowed to be sold.

                    I push it to every smoker I meet.

                    • oh..!..so we are talking to an active addict..

                      (one defending his/her 'precious'..)

                      i now understand yr (illogical but clearly deeply-felt) defence of yr 'precious'..

                      and if i cd just do a fact-check for you here..

                      you could be sticking it up yr arse in a suppository –

                      you are still an addict..

                      all you have changed is yr method of delivery of yr 'precious'..eh..?

                      hope you manage to kick it sometime..

                      and if it helps at all/f.w.i.w. – i used weak marijuana as my 'vape'/crutch to kick tobacco..

                      each time an urge to smoke – i wd take a puff on a weak joint – and the smoke urge wd pass..

                      yes..there was some willpower involved – but compared to my other experiences in that area – like with heroin – nowhere near as bad (tobacco 2/10 – heroin 9/10)..and relatively easy to handle/manage..

                      the secret is no lapsing – once you stop -that is it…

                      good luck..!

                    • The Al1en

                      No secret I vape, no doubting I'm addicted to nicotine, so what? Doesn't disqualify anything I've said in reply to you here today.

                      Despite your attempt to ridicule and patronise the messenger, I'm well above that. The reality is that Vaping instead of smoking has been hugely beneficial to my health. The elimination of toxic tars and chemicals like arsenic is worth the admission price alone. As the doctors state, anything going into your lungs is a bad thing, and for smokers, making the change to vaping is beneficial. It's why you claim to vape instead of smoke isn't it? Lol

                      Also I can go longer without a hit using a vape than I ever could with a fag, so that's a bonus, too. Could be the ingestion method or it could be a break in the old habit, who knows? But it's okay.

                      I wont, for obvious reasons, take your advice, but that's all moot. I'm quite happy with my smok stik x8 and vanilla butterscotch ice cream, ta.

                    • 'Despite your attempt to ridicule and patronise the messenger, I'm well above that. '

                      now that is funny – as yr record of communicating with me here – shows built-in personal insults as a common factor..

                      heh..!

                      and..

                      'Also I can go longer without a hit using a vape than I ever could with a fag, so that's a bonus, too. Could be the ingestion method'..

                      f.f.s..!..are you that fucken unself-aware..

                      you don't want a smoke – 'cos you have already had yr hit of yr 'precious'..

                      nothing else..!

                      and..

                      it is so heartening – to hear how much you love yr precious..

                      betcha you don't luv it as muh as i luvved the syringe full of heroin and cocaine..(ice-cream optional)

                      that i used to use to start my day..eh..?

                    • The Al1en

                      This whole thread is full of you reacting badly to an opposing view and then attempting to play the man with immature rhetoric. I have, for pretty much the whole exchange, kept that out of play.

                      Don't get me wrong, I still find it amusing and enjoy watching you revert to type, but I gain more from not joining in and setting a low bar.

                      Anything in the thread you want to discuss, I'm open to it smiley

    • The Al1en 1.3

      Bit hypocritical to slam vaping nicotine when you do it with weed, no?

      • phillip ure 1.3.1

        to answer this i feel i need to explain to you the differences between tobacco and cannabis..to re-litigate that especially for you..

        and really – i can't be fucked..eh..?..do yr own bloody research..or continue with yer ignorances – yr call…

        and no..i have no problem with ciggy-smokers using vaping to be consuming a slightly cleaner product..but that's about it..it ain't no cure..eh..?..they are still addicted to nicotine..do you really think they are not..?

        and i take it you have no issues with big-tobacco re-packing their addictive product – flavouring it – and marketing it to a new generation – that they are hoping to (and succeeding in)..getting them addicted too..?

        are you listening to yrslf..?

        • marty mars 1.3.1.1

          why bother? – some people just refuse to think sometimes

        • phillip ure 1.3.1.2

          and as an aside to all this..

          for those keeping score – this is two in trumps' favour – (as opposed to the mountain against the orange ball of pus..)

          namely – (unlike his predecessor – the nobel peace prize winner) – he hasn't invaded anyone (yet)..

          and now he has cut big-tobacco off at the pass…

          credit where credit is due..eh..?

            • phillip ure 1.3.1.2.1.1

              my understanding is that melania has been behind this one…(she stood next to big ball of pus in oval office when he announced this – unusual in itself..)

              she is (understandably) concerned about young barron – and his friends..

              getting hooked on this latest iteration of big-tobacco..

              (and i hafta say – goodonher..!..

              once again – credit where credit is due..)

          • bwaghorn 1.3.1.2.2

            Its probably his mates in big tobacco getting him to ban the opposition!!!

            20 000 plus gun deaths a year in the states and you think the cunt cares about a few vapers.

            • greywarshark 1.3.1.2.2.1

              Edit
              He's been out in the sun too long i think. Forgets things. Thinks he is married to someone called Melanoma.

              And he follows the theme of smoke and mirrors. Today it might be vaping smoke, tomorrow it may be heading off into the west toting a gun and following a trail – of blood spots. It’s all a giant action movie with him at the centre, like Arnie without the acumen. He won’t know what ‘acumen’ means but will assume it’s short for Action Men. Anyway doesn’t matter, he has some handy flunky to tell him what he wants to know, and only that.

              He’s living out the yank version of Downton Abbey. It’s very enjoyable for light watching with the mind in neutral and enjoying the scenery and story.

            • The Al1en 1.3.1.2.2.2

              That would be my guess, but let's remember those vaping deaths in the states, apparently 5 out of 6 were using weed to vape in home made solutions. Another cause was vitamin e, an oil, which shouldn't ever go in the lungs.

              Nothing to do with nicotine or flavours.

            • phillip ure 1.3.1.2.2.3

              @ waghorn…

              'Its probably his mates in big tobacco getting him to ban the opposition!!!'

              you seem to be missing the point here – in rather a large way/by a country-mile..

              ..it is big-tobacco that is the trojan-horse in this gig..

              they are the ones pushing the 'cure' of vaping – as their new tool of/for delivery – of their addictive product..

              kinda counter-intuitive of/for them to want it banned..

              ..donchathink…?

              • The Al1en

                Considering profit on tobacco is higher than vape liquids, falling numbers of smokers, a lot of people use vaping as a quit tool as recommended by the medical profession, and if vapes are banned or severely restricted it could easily push some back to cigarettes, it's quite plausible to think the companies, while trying to up their bottom line despite falling sales in the old market, would push to kill the new one at the same time.

                • marty mars

                  that's it – it is all about profit – if people die from the product and therefore cannot generate profit the companies create new markets for existing products and new ones – the video I posted earlier describes it – their inroads to impoverished nations and suffering people to get them addicted so they can make more profit – 101 marketing really

              • bwaghorn

                A quick google told me that the usa grows over 500 million pounds of baccy a year . That's a huge industry gone if everyone turned to factory made syrup for their vape.

                Follow the money .

                I do agree though that vaping is not much better than smoking if the vape still has addictive substances in it .

                • marty mars

                  look at the video I put up earlier – they make profit by selling to new markets and getting those people addicted – this compensates them for the people dying from their products and not buying the products anymore cos they are dead

            • WeTheBleeple 1.3.1.2.2.4

              Exactly bwaghorn. Trump's 'concern' is merely posturing. He cares not one jot for the American public as can be deduced from the myriad of decisions he makes. I need no references for this as anyone can find what an inhuman cretin he is on a daily basis. Big tobacco will be in his ear. Once the vape industry slip him some millions he'll fold.

              Vaping isn't ideal but it is better than smoking: Financially, physically, socially… It rankles me big tobacco has leapt on board but they were always going to after earlier moves to keep vaping illegal failed.

              What a spokesperson the tobacco giants have aye. Trump, most untrustworthy human on the planet today.

              • what don't you understand about this – bleepie -?

                your fevered imaginings to one side..it is big-tobacco who has been targeted here..

                what are you finding so difficult to comprehend about that..?

                • The Al1en

                  Because if vaping is totally banned the big companies can still sell tobacco and their competitors in the vape market can't.

                  • who has even mentioned in passing 'totally banning vaping'..

                    you are tilting at imaginary windmills..

                    you are bordering on hysterical..

                    [lprent: Please enter your handle again – it appears you have lost at least part of your cookies (I enjoyed repeating that yet again). ]

                    • The Al1en

                      If "lost at least part of your cookies" is a euphemism, I can only applaud your creativity lol

                    • lprent []

                      When you’re entering the name, ’email-address’ and ‘website’ for a non-logged in comment on this site – it stores the details in a cookie on your computer. I only store that on the server against any comment you leave along with originating IP, and browser details.

                      When you pick up a page from the server and it arrives on your browser, it will automatically fill in the details using magic from javascript if it has them from whatever cookies you made on your last comment. This means you don’t have to fill them in. I could tell you about the joys of dealing with users who can’t manage to type in their own handle 100 times during the day. Indeed! I could describe that at length.

                      However suffice it to say that humans are monkeys and couldn’t be systematic if you paid them to be – ask any employer. They will always innovate and when you’re running a carefully planned systems, then innovation is the system (and site) killer.

                      But sometimes the cookies on the client machine get corrupted. Most often this is from the commentator being a little enthusiastic or on a slower or busy computer. So they manage to type in the first part of a comment before the cookie gets written into the field and the focus jumps to the comment field.

                      The computer, being about as stupid than the common cold virus and having the instincts of a sloth hunting (and not a innovative monkey), ignores this and send the comment to the server whatever garbage it got. The server will package it into a cookie and send it back to the client computer with the updated page. It does this all automatically because being a monkey I like the odd grooming and I hate helping you with everything.

                      Your client computer will then reproduce it over and over again like a bad counterfeiting operation producing identical bills until you notice that your handle is now something like “Well you obnoxious dickhmy handle”. Which is why computers are really good at generating computer viruses by the trillions and humans always innovate the human viruses to death in a very short time (geological time == 1 century is a very short time).

                      Mods can clean it up on this side if we notice and can be bothered. As the new user “Well you obnoxious dickhmy handle” you will be sent to auto-moderation as a first time user, and a moderator has to set your comment free. Which a lot of work

                      So that is what gives “…lost at least part of your cookies”. It wasn’t a euphemism. More of a sarcastic joke that is self-evident to any one who deals with websites – because of the other meaning of losing your cookies (the origin of which I must look up some time).

                      Now if this was incognito, they’d probably remind you nicely. Personally, after seeing this for a decade I prefer to make it a memorable educational experience (ie slightly sadistic). Others just add you to the rather large trash pile of comments that either the users or mods can’t be bothered dealing with. You can see how large it is getting :-

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                      Here is something about cookies

                    • Incognito []

                      That was very educational and I also learned that I am more of a fudge than a cookie 😉

                    • The Al1en

                      you are bordering on hysterical..

                      Not something that's ever been laid at my front door before, or something I feel a need to wilfully ignore answering in order to save face, unlike some

                      Open mike 13/09/2019

                      So with safety of young people being your driver de jour, you'll no doubt be voting no in 2020 in case kids start smoking weed. Or don't you care about their fragile, developing brains?

                    • The Al1en

                      I appreciate your detailed explanation for my sarcy witticism.

                    • lprent

                      I also learned that I am more of a fudge than a cookie

                      Anything apart from kludge is usually ok. Those things always come around and eventually bite you in the arse.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  I don't lack comprehension, it is you on a bandwagon. We're all aware big tobacco now has it's hand in, and they are marketing to whomever they possibly can. Facts are thin on the ground you keep calling out Alien for being an addict rather than acknowledging the vast difference between the dangers of a cigarette vs vape addiction. 'My precious' – get a grip – you come across as a child.

                  And you aint my friend so don't assume you can distort my name to a nickname. If you need to abbreviate fair enough, that'd be WTB.

                  • what is the 'bandwagon' i am on..?

                    and you do lack basic comprehension – 'cos you think big-tobacco wants to ban vaping..(!)..that just ain't true..

                    'we're all aware'…(best you tell the allen)..and dooes that at all contradict yr claims (in yr last breath) that big tobac want it banned..?

                    you are making absolutely no sense..

                    and yeah..me as ex-heroin etc addict..is giving allen a hard time for being addicted to tobacco..?

                    once again – you make absolutely no sense (but at least you demonstrate a certain consistancy – i s'pose..)

                    and re yr name-thing..?

                    aren't you being a bit 'precious'..?

                    [lprent: Please enter your handle again – it appears you have lost at least part of your cookies (I getting tired of having to repeat that yet again). ]

        • The Al1en 1.3.1.3

          For someone telling me to research you don't half come out with some guff.

          Slightly cleaner product: really? You have compared the chemicals in tobacco and fags to what's in an e juice? Love to see that data sheet.

          But as you say, you don't have a problem with vapers doing their thing, so just a bit of a morning pontificate to get you going?

          Again the big tobacco thing. Adults like flavours too, and we're using them here way before nicotine was permitted. Nothing to do with the major industry players back then. Vapers aren't responsible for the big companies targeting kids, though an argument could be made how illegal pot smokers, for example, have a role to play in gang crime and other criminality.

          • phillip ure 1.3.1.3.1

            see the addict twist – see the addict turn..

            see the addict writhe..

            all in protection of their 'precious'…

            • The Al1en 1.3.1.3.1.1

              And that's the level of debate you've acheived?

              Not that you could, but don't ever change lol

              • i think i'll take mms' advice – and stop bothering..

                yr usefulness as a foil is done..

                you may stand down..

                • The Al1en

                  The last bastion of the out argued. Good stuff lol

                • gsays

                  I was under the impression that it was the ingesting of burning vegetable matter (and additives in the case of tailor made) that caused the myriad cancers. As opposed to the nicotine, which is the hook that keeps you going back to the durries.

                  Therefore, yes they are still addicted to nicotine, but consume it in a 'healthier' form.

                  Sure tobacco companies keep making a profit, but hey, so are arms makers, oil companies and booze companies.

                  • marty mars

                    "Sure tobacco companies keep making a profit, but hey, so are arms makers, oil companies and booze companies"

                    lol – it isn't a good thing you know, for most people

                  • what a refreshing air of insousciance you have towards young ppl getting hooked on nicotine – using liquid/flavoured vaping products..

                    (which is what is being targeted – nobody is coming to rip allens' vape from his fevered/clutching/addicted fingers..

                    his 'precious' is safe..

                    this banning is all about helping prevent another generation being in the thrall of big-tobacco..

                    • The Al1en

                      So with safety of young people being your driver de jour, you'll no doubt be voting no in 2020 in case kids start smoking weed. Or don't you care about their fragile, developing brains?

                    • gsays

                      C'mon Phil, as we both know, there hasn't been a drug deal where both parties weren't willing participants. Be it nicotine, alcohol, pot, smack….

                      As you also know, prohibition doesn't work.

                      Don't quite know how I got here, but my reckon is that vaping is a less harmful way of getting yr nicotine fix.

                  • WeTheBleeple

                    It's some derivative of vitamin E that's caused the (vaping) issues to my understanding.

                    • that's good news – that you have found the source of the ''ssues' to yr 'understanding'..

                      so best you lay off the vitamin e..eh..?

                      [lprent: Please enter your handle again – it appears you have lost at least part of your cookies (and I’m starting to mean that in a grimmer tone.). ]

  2. weka 2

    So the council think the building is safe and construction can carry on, and Worksafe have closed the site until it is made safe?

    • Andre 2.1

      Not sure how you got that conclusion from the article. Seems pretty clear both the council and Worksafe have grounds and responsibility to shut the site down until it's made safe. It appears both did act to shut it, and both will have to be satisfied before work restarts.

      Worksafe and council have different, but overlapping, priorities and responsibilities.

      Worksafe's central responsibility is ensuring people doing a job are safe – in this case there was a serious risk of the house collapsing onto those working underneath it. That the whole lot could collapse onto the neighbours is kinda peripheral to their core responsibility, but still within Worksafe's authority.

      Council's central responsibility is ensuring the resulting building meets standards required for the users, and doesn't unacceptably affect anyone else. That no consent was sought, no info filed with council, there was a genuine risk of the whole lot collapsing onto the neighbours etc falls within council's core responsibilities. That the workers underneath were at serious risk of getting splattered is kinda peripheral to council's core responsibility, but still within their authority.

      • weka 2.1.1

        Like Lynn I thought the article confusing. Specifically the timelines eg earlier the council response that seemed to be saying it was ok so long as the engineer was supervising, but Worksafe said no and shut it down. I get the different areas of responsibility, just couldn't see how why the overlaps weren't kicking in.

        • Graeme 2.1.1.1

          The article is certainly confusing, but in the situation not surprising. Council say they are investigating

          Auckland Council manager of regulatory compliance Steve Pearce said it had also received two complaints.

          "We inspected the site on Monday and Tuesday [last week] and found building work under way without building and resource consent. We sought advice from structural engineers, who inspected the site and advised that it wasn't safe," he said.

          "As a result, we have issued a dangerous building notice requiring the site be fenced off and to undertake work to make the building safe."

          So there will be various versions of what went on and everyone will be rather careful what they say, or they are saying nothing. Whole thing looks very cavalier with little regard to Building Act and RMA.

          I can understand WorkSafe getting in first if the initial complaint was from a safety angle, Councils get a bit inundated with complaints on this angle as lprent says below as there's alway going to be someone pissed off, but WorkSafe tend to be pretty on to it if there's danger to life and limb.

          Is consent information, Building Act and RMA, publicly available in Auckland? In QLDC land we have all this public and pretty much real time, so it's all out there down to internal email within council. This has a moderating effect all around and we see very little illegal work, and what does occur gets shutdown very quickly. Anyone can look up a building or resource consent and see what is going on, or should be going on.

          • weka 2.1.1.1.1

            First contact with council was 27 August. While I appreciate what Lynn is saying re noise and the number of complaints, it would take council 2 mins to look up and see there are no consents on the books for the property.

          • weka 2.1.1.1.2

            Interesting about QLDC and transparency. I wonder how many other councils do that.

    • lprent 2.2

      I read that the other day. The article appeared to be pretty confused.

      As far as I can see the council has granted a consent (??) but possibly not for the scale of work being undertaken. Most of the article is about neighbours trying to get someone to look at noise and a next door neighbour to look at a possible danger to her house.

      What you have to remember is that almost all construction projects in housing or mixed areas in Auckland have complaints from neighbours. We had more than 6 months as the Ministry of Post had a large upstairs area added to the commercial building next door. Bloody noisy and irritating – especially when editing sound.

      So you have different groups you can call.

      1. Noise control – but they’d look at the times and levels under the consent.
      2. Council – but you’d have to refer it directly to the conditions of the consent and if they’re exceeding it.
      3. Finally worksafe – which just looks at safety – which does look like an issue based on those pictures. They usually have a pretty immediate presence if you point to a danger.

      I’m pretty sure that the building inspectors will be around as well one way or another.

      • weka 2.2.1

        Might be the noise, but if I were the neighbours I'd be nervous too esp if they knew there were no consents in play.

  3. greywarshark 3

    Edit
    Radionz site opens up with Closed Until Further Notice – relating to Christchurch matters.

    News item – New visas to help Christchurch mosque attack widows rejected by Cabinet.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018712489/closed-until-further-notice-a-life-on-hold-after-the-mosque-attacks

    About 25 women, made widows by the Christchurch mosque attacks, have been left with no other family to support them permanently in New Zealand. They have leaned heavily on parents and siblings, who have dropped everything to relocate to New Zealand. Now many want to stay here to help long term, but they fall outside special visa categories. Conan Young has been speaking to those trying to rebuild their lives.

    This is the end of me speaking up for support for Labour. They are munted. In life, it seems to me, a person who wants to have a good life in a good society has to find balance between idealism and pragmatism. The labour movement seems to have lost that balance, and has slid to pragmatism and materialism; ideals and principles are to be flexible.

    The high sounding comments after the debacle and tragedy in Christchurch were just an emotional tide. Now the tide has flowed out, and the compassion and principles of Labour have dried up as the 10second sound bite has stretched thin and band-aids have been applied, and now the spotlight has shifted.

    Labour has stayed at a distance from Communism as practised rather than theorised. But democratic socialistic it isn't and Marx and Engels would classify it as bourgeois.*

    bourgeois – adjective: bourgeois
    1. belonging to or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.

    "a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
    synonyms:middle-class, property-owning, propertied,

    .
    This from The Communist Manifesto by K Marx and F Engels.

    "Constant revolutionising of production,
    uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions,
    everlasting uncertainty and agitation,
    distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones.

    All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air".

    • greywarshark 3.1

      Interesting and thoughtful and unhappy Chris Trotter at Bowalley Road.

      https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2019/09/a-movement-that-no-longer-moves.html

      • JohnP 3.1.1

        Yikes, the comment about 'the native working poor' underneath that post is, well, interesting.

        • greywarshark 3.1.1.1

          I think you are in reaction mode; the native working poor seems to refer to the people who were poor but aspirational before the wage-cutting immigrant and working student group came in their large numbers. The writer seems reactive too, having a go at anything that might seem to advance social aspirations and any Party that has such airy-fairy ideas.

    • Treetop 3.2

      Lees Galloway is going to be faced with having to make a decision with each person who does not have permanent support. I would like to see some common sense and allow up to two support people be given permanent residence.

      It might be the Kiwi way to paint a mural or hold a candle vigil, but for the people directly affected they require ongoing support from close family to gradually heal (as much as they can) having had their life shattered. It is the one thing that no one other than family can do.

  4. Agora 4

    Johnson’s advice to Queen was unlawful, Scottish judges rule

    "Parliament will be recalled if the UK’s top court upholds a Scottish court’s explosive ruling that Boris Johnson gave the Queen unlawful advice, the government has promised.

    Downing Street was forced to make the pledge after outrage among Conservatives when a senior minister and an official at No 10 cast doubt on the impartiality of Scottish judges.

    A constitutional crisis provoked by the prorogation of parliament will come to a head in the Supreme Court on Tuesday after diametrically opposed rulings from judges in England and Scotland."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/scottish-court-rules-parliament-suspension-unlawful-xdzj2c6kkJohnson’s advice to Queen was unlawful, Scottish judges rule

  5. greywarshark 5

    Are Christchurch mosque attack widows being left to grapple with the stone-cold policies bereft of humanity that the NZ superior moneyed class bestows on mothers and poor families?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/2018711947/solo-mums-on-benefits-having-to-decide-between-food-and-fuel

  6. Agora 6

    A summary of the judgement said: 'The Inner House of the Court of Session has ruled that the Prime Minister's advice to HM the Queen that the United Kingdom Parliament should be prorogued from a day between 9 and 12 September until 14 October was unlawful because it had the purpose of stymying Parliament.

    'All three first division judges have decided that the PM's advice to the HM the Queen is justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying parliament and that it, and what has followed from it, is unlawful.

    'The court will accordingly make an order declaring that the prime minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect.'

    At the hearing, Judge Lord Carloway told the court: 'We are of the opinion that the advice given by the Government to her majesty the Queen to prorogue parliament was unlawful and that the prorogation itself was unlawful.'

    A UK Government spokesman said: 'We are disappointed by today's decision, and will appeal to the UK Supreme Court.

    'The UK Government needs to bring forward a strong domestic legislative agenda. Proroguing Parliament is the legal and necessary way of delivering this.'

    The case is now set for the Supreme Court in London where it is expected to be heard alongside a similar case brought by campaigner Gina Miller.'All three first division judges have decided that the PM's advice to the HM the Queen is justiciable, that it was motivated by the improper purpose of stymying parliament and that it, and what has followed from it, is unlawful.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7452433/No10-accused-questioning-impartiality-judges-prorogation-case.html

  7. greywarshark 7

    The pot is simmering. But what is being cooked? Will the Supreme Court judges find that some technically manufactured faux-fare has been cooked-up?

    • Treetop 7.1

      Could this end up in the Privy Council?

      Who could have invisioned Brexit being so complicated and time consuming because of individual political parties wanting to have the power and control of the House of Commons.

      It is not a given either that a second referendum will not vote to stay in the EU.

      I am finding it hard to pick who the contenders for PM are and which political party might be able to actually function without imploding to resolve Brexit issues.

  8. cleangreen 8

    Some very good news yesterday though? Our NGO CEAC has fought for recognition in our region for Community wellbeing and Government is enshrining it in law now finally.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1909/S00163/ceac-support-wellbeing-to-be-enshrined-in-law.htm

    CEAC support “Wellbeing to be enshrined in law”
    Thursday, 12 September 2019, 9:15 am
    Press Release: Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre
    11/9/19
    Yesterday Hon Grant Robertson Minister of Finance issued a welcome ‘clear directive’ in the press to ensure every Government considers the wellbeing of New Zealanders when creating future budgets.
    QUOTE; Government’ to ensure every Government considers the wellbeing of New Zealanders when creating future budgets.
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1909/S00080/wellbeing-to-be-enshrined-in-law.htm
    QUOTE:
    Legislation has been introduced in Parliament today to ensure every Government considers the wellbeing of New Zealanders when creating future budgets.
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson says the successful delivery of the Wellbeing Budget this year placed wellbeing at the heart of the Government’s policy-making.

  9. Pat 9

    "The thing that has been troubling me is that there's been a lot of conversation by government MPs as to keeping quiet to respect the privacy of the victim but it's like the victim was pushed away by the Labour Party when they approached the Labour Party with their complaints and it's like had the National Party not actually been willing to take this on then I don't think that it would be in the news right now," he said.

    "That's a pretty hard thing that the justice has come from almost the National Party."

    WTF?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/398684/labour-youth-wing-member-heartbroken-over-handling-of-allegations

    • cleangreen 9.1

      Best now that labour concentrate on the new “community well being Act instead, now that they slaved over almost two years to bring us in NZ in future to fully promote this worthy policy;

      quote; ‘policy, where we want to consider the well being of our environment, people and communities’.?

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1909/S00080/wellbeing-to-be-enshrined-in-law.htm

      That new ‘enshrined Act’ will ensure we all are treated with dignity and respect?

      • greywarshark 9.1.1

        The old vehicle may still get us where we want to go, as long as its patched up and the engine serviced with oil, water and whatever fuel it needs. But it must have constant watching, servicing and checking of all parts including steering, and ensuring that no political t.rrors put a virtual b.m. under it!

  10. Agora 10

    A 400 year old Greenland shark was described as the oldest vertebrate animal but as "the best candidate for the longest living vertebrate animal” does not have a cultural concept of war.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/aug/11/400-year-old-greenland-shark-is-the-oldest-vertebrate-animal

    [lprent: Fixed the link so that I could read it. ]

    • lprent 10.1

      Personally I'd say that culture in a large part depends on co-existence. From your link..

      Grey, plump and growing to lengths of around five metres, the Greenland shark is one of the world’s largest carnivores. With a reported growth rate of less than one centimetre a year, they were already thought to be long-lived creatures, but just how long they lived for was something of a mystery.

      From wikipedia

      The Greenland shark is an apex predator and mostly eats dolphins. It has never been observed hunting.[10] Recorded fish prey have included smaller sharks, skates, eels, herring, capelin, Arctic char, cod, rosefish, sculpins, lumpfish, wolffish, and flounder.[7]

      They do cluster – for warmth. Apparently they don't prefer it

      During the winter, the sharks congregate in the shallows (up to 80° north) for warmth but migrate separately in summer to the deeps or even farther south.

      And of course there is procreation and family..

      As recently as 1957, females were found not to deposit eggs in the bottom mud, but retain the developing embryos within their bodies so they are born alive after an undetermined gestation period (a process known as ovoviviparity). About 10 pups per litter are normal, each initially measuring some 38–42 cm (15–17 in) in length.[26][28]

      Elsewhere I found that they are just as social about that. While they don't do the alien host thing, baby sharks just leave home early. The attrition rate amongst baby sharks is high – hence the high per birthrate and the biannual birthings. But being around mom is going to be a short life experience. Fortunately she can’t swim fast after birthing.

      I'm not even going to describe the sexual practices of male sharks that they use to get leverage for the act of producing more baby sharks. You can look it up yourself.

      Umm. No war huh?. Just a carnivorous apex predator with little or no social life and an appetite. It may be your totem animal. But to me it sounds like the worst kind of sociopathic child soldier with a AK47. Conditioned, antisocial, limited cortex and reflexively dangerous – something to avoid.

      sotto voice: really – where do we get these people from?

  11. marty mars 11

    the ruddy rodent

    The Trump administration is finalizing plans to allow oil and gas drilling in a portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge that has been protected for decades.

    The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) will offer leases on essentially the entire 1.6m-acre coastal plain, which includes places where threatened polar bears have dens and porcupine caribou visit for calving. Drilling operations are expected to be problematic for Indigenous populations, many of which rely on subsistence hunting and fishing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/12/trump-arctic-national-wildlife-refuge-oil-gas-drilling

  12. marty mars 12

    RIP Wade Doak – you will be missed

    • greywarshark 12.2

      Wade Doak – a full, busy, fruitful and worthy for his love and care for the marine creatures – an inspiring life. Aged 79, after a short illness. Way to go.

      One of his books – have a memory of him. Here are some starting at the highest price but the Trademe page has lower prices. Better still, visit your most conveniently sited bookstore and browse. Christmas coming!

      Wade and Jan Doak – Bringing back the Birdsong
      Trademe Listing #: 2313441210

      The Elingamite and its Treasure Wade Doak
      Listing #: 2312854418

      A Photographic Guide to Sea Fishes of New Zealand Wade Doak Listing #: 2306330835

      Gaia Calls Wade Doak Listing #: 2308613238

      WADE DOAK. ENCOUNTERS WITH WHALES AND DOLPHINS.
      Listing #: 2308075753

      SHARKS AND OTHER ANCESTORS – WADE DOAK – SIGNED
      Listing #: 2304795018

      Cheapest is Buy Now $5.50 for Deep Blue – a South Pacific Odyssey
      Listing #: 2305795124 Closes Sat 2.30

  13. mosa 13

    Canadians head too the polls on October 21st in what is going too be a close contest.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-polltracker-sept11-1.5278147

    • ScottGN 13.1

      Liberals are in a much better position than they were a few months ago as the SNC Lavalin scandal fades plus they have the advantage of better vote efficiency across the 2 most populous provinces, Ontario and Quebec that have a lot of seats. They’re getting help in Quebec as the NDP tank there and antipathy to Ford is weighing down the Cons in Ontario.

  14. marty mars 14

    Very poor indeed, disgusting in fact – haven't you put people through enough bullshit? and now you are running them into a testcase – rubbish – just about $$$ – the liability is there because of the way they treated people

    The Minister in charge of Southern Response Grant Robertson tells Lisa Owen the decision to appeal the Dodds' High Court judgement is the government's decision, and maintains it's the right decision, but he says it was a tough one to make.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018713015/southern-response-court-appeal-a-tough-decision-robertson

  15. newsense 16

    Man- why I haven't subscribed to the Herald's new offering- Hawkesby, Soper, Hooten, Young, and etc. all pop up desparate to stick a headline into Ardern.

    Reminds you of their dirty politics on Cunliffe. Apologies briefly years later.

    RNZ reminding us about National's culture review that isn't and isn't public.

  16. bwaghorn 17

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/southland-top-stories/115780173/farmers-call-for-extension-to-sixweek-consultation-period-on-freshwater-rules

    Not really they way to take people with you is it .!!!

    Just try ram new shit through while farmers are to busy to digest and be involved with the process.

  17. Reality 18

    From Amsterdam on talking to an American couple from North Carolina – they just love our Prime Minister and are totally in despair at the ghastly current occupier of the White House. They think we are so fortunate to have Jacinda (they called her just by her Christian name). What a shame we have our arrogant, self-opionated, nasty, shock jocks on the radio waves ranting their bile. I hope the country gets behind our PM and gives her support at this time. Yet again, bury National scandals quick smart but no Labour troubles.

  18. Eco maori 19

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Felicity kia kaha be strong down let the corupt system up set your wairua your are a good mama that's all that counts 14 days and it's over.

    Wishful thinking paula you strung this government staffing issues and played it to try and damage Jacinda but no effect on Jacinda Mana wairua.

    The blue penguin are thriving in Wellington Harbour awesome they are roaming in the city looking for nesting sights. Doc does great mahi looking after our wildlife but I say more money and efforts need to be invested in protecting our native wildlife on the Raukurama ranges.

    Ka kite Ano

  19. Eco maori 20

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Ngāti Kahu Ka pai for highlighting the problems with waste water treatment in their whenua Awa Tangaroa. I think that we have to change the way we live to minimise the Wai we use and waste water we produce. We only use 5 litres of water a day per person and we are proud of that fact. We have to go back to how we lived in the past to save our futures decendints environment become minimalist with every thing we use

    Kia Ora to Trevor Maxwell for being honoured for his contribution to Kapa Haka ka pai E hoa.

    Six60 singing in Te reo is cool everyone no they are one off Eco Maori taonga waiata ropu.

    Ka kite Ano

  20. patricia bremner 21

    Thank you Eco Maori.

  21. Eco maori 22

    Edit 8 liters a day water use we wash our clothes elsewhere at the minute ma Te wa we will have a washing machine in good time so our use will climb to 10 litres a day.

  22. Eco maori 23

    This Waka on combating climate change is now a big issue to most tangata around the Papatuanuku. We all. Must join together to convince the Politicians of the Papatuanuku that it is now the biggest challenge humanity has ever seen. If we all make small changes now our future generations will have much better chances of a Good Life.

    Covering Climate Now: The climate crisis is a mainstream concern

    OPINION: If you're concerned about climate change, you're not alone. Whether vocally or quietly, most New Zealanders are.

    A recent poll found 79 per cent of Kiwis considered climate change important to them personally. As scientists issue ever-more-urgent warnings, and school students march to demand swifter and stronger government action, this can't be dismissed as a fringe issue that doesn't trouble everyday New Zealanders.

    The climate crisis is a mainstream concern.

    We've witnessed that in the reader reaction to Stuff's Quick! Save the Planet project, which aims to make the realities of climate change feel urgent, tangible and unignorable

    Today, we've joined Covering Climate Now – an ambitious, week-long global initiative emphasising the paramount importance of the climate story.

    Covering Climate Now's roster features more than 240 news outlets, including the Guardian, CBS, the Times of India, and Asahi Shimbun. You'll see some of their stories on Stuff this week, alongside our original reporting.

    A broad selection of New Zealand's mainstream media is on board: 1 News, RNZ, Newshub, the NZ Herald, Newsroom and the Spinoff, as well as Stuff.

    More than 110 businesses have joined the Climate Leaders Coalition, pledging to take voluntary action to measure and reduce emissions. That includes some of the country's biggest emitters – such as Fonterra and Z Energy – and many other household names. (Stuff Ltd is a member). Climate Change Minister James Shaw says the group represents around 60 per cent of gross greenhouse gas emissions – a level of buy-in from major polluters unmatched in other countries

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/115669338/covering-climate-now-the-climate-crisis-is-a-mainstream-concern

  23. Eco maori 24

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

  24. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Its great to see the Allblack are receiving a warm welcome in Japan.

    The Tongan Prime Minister tangi will be very important to the Tonga tangata just like it is to Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa.

    Autism affects quite a lot of people having children with autism will be hard mahi. It's good that the tarakihi are diagnosed so process can be put in place to help tamariki reach there full educated potential.

    Let's hope that not too many people were losted to the atrocious flooding in Spain. This type of extreme weather is going to be the new norm with Global warming it will only get worse unless we do things to slow human cause global warming. I can see why some people can be fooled into believing that human cause climate change is not true because we live such a short life. Humans have changed the environment all Around the Papatuanuku.

    Ka kite Ano

  25. Eco maori 26

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Sherl Matinga Mana Wahine that is the way run for Waikato Council in Huntly Eco Maori advice don't give up were there's a will there's a way Kia Kaha.

    Its great to see people are making a big effort to keep our Wai clean.

    Ka pai to planting native trees in houner of the tangata lost in the Christchurch desaster.

    I agree setting the records straight on the Maori Wars and all Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa true history. is needed.

    Ka pai to the teachers teaching the hearing impaired tangata to sign language in Maori.

    That pepi knows Te whakapapa cool.

    Ka kite Ano

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