Open mike 14/11/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:45 am, November 14th, 2014 - 134 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

134 comments on “Open mike 14/11/2014 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    14 November 2014 at 7:13 am

    “NZ kids slip in world maths rankings.”
    This government’s education policies are really working aren’t they?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11358227

    • The Al1en 1.1
      14 November 2014 at 7:40 am

      There are three types of people where maths are concerned, those who can do it and those who can’t.

    • Bill 1.2
      14 November 2014 at 2:43 pm

      So, was I hallucinating, or maybe suffering from some type of false memory syndrome?

      Within the past few weeks I heard some minister or some such on Radio NZ (?) claiming that NZ kids would be climbing in the rankings due to ‘national standards’.

      Anyone else hear that item?

    • Murray Rawshark 1.3
      14 November 2014 at 8:12 pm

      Nah mate. They give these example questions and I got two of them right. That’s 80%. We’re doing OK.
      Quiz: Three math questions (answers below)

      1. Solve: 5(t – 4) = 15
      2. Simplify: 6(x – 5) – 2(x+1)
      3. Solve: 3x(x+4) = 0

      On a serious note, though, I looked at my niece’s trigonometry homework a couple of years ago and her teacher had marked a few correct answers wrong. That was a school in a good Tory area.

  2. Paul 2
    14 November 2014 at 7:26 am

    Any one hear Suzie Ferguson’s interview of Mike Treen on RNZ?
    She made Hosking look like a balanced journalist.
    Disgraceful.

    • Once Was Tim 2.1
      14 November 2014 at 7:42 am

      I did and just wondered where the hell RNZ got her from! Mike’s response was pretty good however, despite her me me me gotcha efforts to shut him down

      • Paul 2.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 7:44 am

        She was kind of saying it was his union’s fault that there was zero hours contracts!
        Wonder if she’ll interview the head of BurgerKing and apply anything like the same pressure.

        • Once Was Tim 2.1.1.1
          14 November 2014 at 7:54 am

          Interesting post on TDB – no doubt you’ve seen it. We’ve sunk really low huh? It’s been going on far too long. I put a lot of it down to that bloody restructure which saw the Joyce creation of that bugger’s muddle of a Munstry called MoBIE where certain complaints I’m aware of simply disappeared into a black hole

      • Paul 2.1.2
        14 November 2014 at 7:44 am

        She was kind of saying it was his union’s fault that there was zero hours contracts!
        Wonder if she’ll interview the head of BurgerKing and apply anything like the same pressure.

  3. andrew murray 3
    14 November 2014 at 7:33 am

    Come back Philip Ure…

    • Chooky 3.2
      14 November 2014 at 9:43 am

      eggs and bacon and toast and black coffee for breakfast!…..yummmmyyyy….that should bring him out

      …..and roast pork and gravy and spinach and roast potatoes and beans for Sunday evening dinner…….after a hard days physical work………..mmmmmmm….

      • TheContrarian 3.2.1
        14 November 2014 at 9:50 am

        Tomorrow morning, Saturday breakfast, huge omelet with bacon, mushrooms and tomato.

        And steak for dinner. Fuck yeah – weekends

        • Chooky 3.2.1.1
          14 November 2014 at 10:48 am

          lol…philip …where are you?

          • Karen 3.2.1.1.1
            14 November 2014 at 11:29 am

            He was banned for 2 weeks for promoting veganism in various posts rather than sticking to Open Mike.

            I must say I miss him too. Not nearly as irritating as the RWNJ comments that seem to dominate dialogue lately. Don’t know why anybody engages with them.

            • karol 3.2.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2014 at 11:36 am

              I didn’t realise he was absent. Mostly I don’t read many of his comments on open mike, so hadn’t noticed he was gone. However, I did think he tended to clutter up open mike with his preoccupations.

              • weka …
                14 November 2014 at 11:53 am

                I’m enjoying having a break from his cluttering up OM too. I don’t read most of his comments because they’re too hard to read, so it’s tedious having to scroll through so many conversations. From what I can tell a decent sized chunk of those convos is people giving phil shit, so I don’t really see the point.

              • Rodel …
                14 November 2014 at 12:36 pm

                Karol -me too.
                It was the full stops and incoherence that made me skip.
                Succinctness I appreciate.

              • andrew murray …
                14 November 2014 at 2:04 pm

                Yeah Karol but he was one of the few who displayed a strong sense of understanding for the rights of all people, animals and the planet… I really liked his liberal opinions on all but power.

              • Tracey …
                14 November 2014 at 3:29 pm

                He was banned for two weeks. Took his pet topics on the road and diverted non open mike posts…

            • Murray Rawshark 3.2.1.1.1.2
              14 November 2014 at 9:43 pm

              +1
              That’s pretty much how I feel. I prefer to be irritated a bit by allies to being disgusted by enemies.

          • ankerawshark 3.2.1.1.2
            14 November 2014 at 2:03 pm

            Chooky @ 3.2.1.1 PU has been spotted (by me) commenting on the Daily Blog.

  4. Clemgeopin 4
    14 November 2014 at 9:54 am

    Ontario Provincial Police Recommend Ending Anonymity on the Internet.

    The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs began its hearings on Bill C-13, the lawful access/cyberbullying bill last week with an appearance from several law enforcement representatives. The Ontario Provincial Police was part of the law enforcement panel and was asked by Senator Tom McInnis, a Conservative Senator from Nova Scotia, about what other laws are needed to address cyberbullying.

    Read their submission and also a Supreme Court judge’s views on this very important matter:

    http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2014/11/ontario-provincial-police-recommend-ending-anonymity-internet/

    • Murray Rawshark 4.1
      14 November 2014 at 9:49 pm

      It’s not anonymity that aids net bullying. It’s impunity. Once again lawn forcement wants to take rights from everyone for the actions of a few. Whalespew doesn’t try to destroy good people because no one knows who he is. He does it because he knows nothing will happen to him. His vile army are just as cowardly, including the ones who post garbage here.

  5. Chooky 5
    14 November 2014 at 10:36 am

    Taken over from post on ‘The Casualisation of Work’ , at Goodsweats request

    @goodsweat…You said : “You’ve got 265,000 hungry children, I’m flat-out finding one”…..well maybe you are not looking in the right places!!!…or maybe you are just blind…or maybe you are stuck in John Key’s multi million dollar suburb….

    ….this was a very important issue for Hone Harawira and Mana/Int…and now Metiria Turei and the Greens… who have taken over the issue of school breakfasts/lunches from him ( are you saying they are liars and whipping up a nonexistent problem?!…shame on you!)

    ….My mother , a former teacher, often had to feed kids who came to school without lunch and probably had no breakfast….the school had weetbix and milk in the fridge and she bought bread and made extra lunch at school or paid for them …the situation must have got far worse since she retired 20 years ago

    The fact is Goodsweat….there seems to be two different tiers in New Zealand society

    ….the ‘haves’ have bought their own houses and have well paying jobs and a good education

    …. the ‘have nots’ (who are increasingly those NZers under 30 who have young children or thinking of having children) …are struggling….They struggle for housing and well paying jobs and if they are lucky enough to have had a tertiary education , they are struggling to pay off student debt on loans….for them having their own home is increasingly an impossible dream, even having children is a luxury…their option is to go overseas…or struggle in NZ….this is why children go hungry in New Zealand….but unfortunately the ‘haves’ dont see their struggles ….I suggest you spend a day with Hone Harawira

    • goodsweat 5.1
      14 November 2014 at 11:28 am

      Taken over from post on ‘The Casualisation of Work’ , at Goodsweats request

      @goodsweat…You said : “You’ve got 265,000 hungry children, I’m flat-out finding one”…..well maybe you are not looking in the right places!!!…or maybe you are just blind…or maybe you are stuck in John Key’s multi million dollar suburb….

      ….this was a very important issue for Hone Harawira and Mana/Int…and now Metiria Turei and the Greens… who have taken over the issue of school breakfasts/lunches from him ( are you saying they are liars and whipping up a nonexistent problem?!…shame on you!)

      Hi Chooky, thanks.

      People at this site seem to be quick to put me in a pidgeon-hole that suits their Loft slots. As I stated earlier, I feel closest aligned to the society I enjoyed in Sweden. Since about 1917 their primary government has been the Socialist Democratic Workers Party.

      I am not typing from a flat in New Lynn. I lead my humble life in a rented house, my primary income managing houses in New Zealand’s most impoverished region. My tenants and I are not far from Hone and Hilda. I carry out regular inspections, the nature of the work requires the asking of personal questions re: income, work history etc. Time and time again, I encounter tucker in fridges and people that place their children above all else.

      As I stated, I believe the poverty is most definitely there. It’s an ugly vibe of just enough to keep breathing but not enough to get ahead, no matter if dependant on a benefit or working. Dad working fulltime and Mum part-time and their own house is still out of the question? It shouldn’t be. Hone and Hilda are compassionate folk. If they knew of a baby in need of a serious feed they wouldn’t be throwing a bill for the Greens to catch, they be driving round there with a pot of mashed apple. We all would be, Northlanders take care of each other.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 11:59 am

        If they knew of a baby in need of a serious feed they wouldn’t be throwing a bill for the Greens to catch, they be driving round there with a pot of mashed apple.

        There’s only so much a single person can do but a society can support itself and everyone in it – if the rich and the government allow it to. For the last thirty years the government and the rich have been telling us that we can’t afford to.

        • Manuka AOR 5.1.1.1
          14 November 2014 at 2:04 pm

          “a society can support itself and everyone in it – if the rich and the government allow it to. For the last thirty years the government and the rich have been telling us that we can’t afford to.”

          As Andrew said yesterday, “We have to call out their agendas and refuse to accept their framing of events”.

          It’s time to re-frame this one, where they say they “can’t afford” to rearrange priorities to ensure the people of Aotearoa, the people they are elected to represent, are cared for. No more “What they allow”. It is up to us to create the Aotearoa of the future.

      • Chooky 5.1.2
        14 November 2014 at 2:59 pm

        @ goodsweat….well i am pleased to hear you dont come from John Key’s area and you do seem to have a grassroots appreciation as to what is going on

        ….however a lot of poverty is hidden because people are ashamed …nevertheless it is there….and children suffer…schoolteachers are the ones who really see it …and the food banks

        …..sometimes parents have not got the money for their kids breakfasts and lunches because of rental or other commitments….sometimes they are disorganised or poor managers and/or stressed themselves or on booze or drugs …neverthe less it is the kids who suffer and go hungry.

        …you talk about Sweden as an ideal model society…however i think you will find that in Scandinavian countries social welfare assistance for people is much higher than in New Zealand …..and school meals are provided

      • Murray Rawshark 5.1.3
        14 November 2014 at 10:03 pm

        Do you get much of a thrill looking in people’s fridges? Sounds pretty invasive to me.

        • Chooky 5.1.3.1
          14 November 2014 at 10:39 pm

          +100 Murray Rawshark……yes on reflection it does seem to be invasive! ..

          ….so what can goodsweat tell from investigating people’s fridges?…i guess if they had one potato in their fridge and cupboards it would tell you something …or if the fridge was full of beer….but some people eat very well with nothing much in their fridge…other people’s fridges are full of old jams and pickles, half eaten yoghurts etc…..i wonder what is in goodsweats’ fridge?…and who he is that he can go around investigating?..is he from WINZ?

          • goodsweat 5.1.3.1.1
            15 November 2014 at 1:15 pm

            Hi Murray and Chooky,
            Many of the properties I manage are furnished, when I carry out my routine inspections the insurance policies held by owners require me to check on the house, grounds and chattels. I open fridges, ovens, washing machines etc. It’s not an aspect of my job I enjoy, I feel as if I am encroaching on peoples’ lives. Same with peoples’ financial and address history. If trusting them with somebody else’s 400k asset, distasteful as it is, I need to do background checks.

            Many of my tenants are leading what I would refer to as lives of poverty, scraping by. Without exception, in every household, the wellbeing of the children comes first. Some have vices, there is some evidence of poor overall money management but in every single case, the children are loved and fed. I’m starting to feel that this talk of hungry children is creating a unsavoury stigma for people like the many lower income families of the North.

            I’m sure there are cases where a handful of kids are going hungry. I’ve managed to avoid having anything to do with the making of or consumption of meth but I can imagine a kid’s well-being might move to the back-seat in a full on meth house.

            I know there has been lots written about the issue, hungry kids. Teachers are well placed to gauge it…I also know kids. “Which of you kids wants to do maths and who wants to go to the hall for a plate of tinned apricots?”

            My life experience has prompted me to believe that it is only in the most dysfunctional of families that the childrens’ needs don’t rate right up there on the household budget priority scale. Everybody loves their kids, lets address the underlying issue, the love barrier, the seat of the problem, booze, gambling etc. A family with a hungry kid don’t need Weetbix in the hall, they need help beyond that, right now.

            I’m afraid my view might offend many regulars here. This is not my intention. I’m all for building a more equal NZ. I think playing the empathy ticket attracts gushing lip service and a token response. I’ve always had better buy in from others with “What do you reckon about this plan?” as opposed to “I’m down on my luck, if you were a decent Kiwi you’d help me out.”

  6. joe90 6
    14 November 2014 at 10:41 am

    Delicate wee petals.
    /

    Bulging eyes, scrunched noses, bared teeth — anti-oil pipeline protesters are facing off against energy giant Kinder Morgan with the meanest mugs they can muster.

    Scores of people are posting snarling selfies online after legal arguments made in B.C. Supreme Court last week that facial expressions constitute assault.

    Kinder Morgan lawyer Bill Kaplan told the court that activists who have blocked a subsidiary pipeline builder in a Metro Vancouver conservation area obstructed workers in part by making faces. Millions in damages are being sought.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/09/anti-pipeline-protesters-post-snarling-selfies-online-after-lawyer-says-facial-expressions-constitute-assault/

  7. weka 7
    14 November 2014 at 11:50 am

    So is the intention today to keep people away from OM? (arrrgggg, the Hair!!!!).

  8. Draco T Bastard 8
    14 November 2014 at 12:02 pm

    Key used GCSB role for own end: Greens

    Documents released under the Official Information Act show Mr Key asked for documents about the spy plans to be declassified in July, but he planned to release them on or around September 15 – the day of the Moment of Truth.

    And Mr Key decided not to release the documents at the time they were declassified, documents show.

    Greens co-leader Russel Norman says this shows Mr Key used his role as the minister responsible for intelligence for political gain.

    “The timing of the release of the documents was purely to assist the National Party in their election campaign,” Mr Norman said.

    “This is a classic abuse of power.”

    Typical National really, using public information that only they have available to them to help themselves.

    • James 8.1
      14 November 2014 at 2:27 pm

      Actually it was not just to help themselves – it was to prove that the information that was from the “moment of truth” was, well not truth.

      If Kim Dotcom and co didn’t make the allegations they did, then Key would not have had to declassify documents to prove that Kim was wrong.

      • McFlock 8.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 2:36 pm

        If Kim Dotcom and co didn’t make the allegations they did, then Key would not have had to declassify documents to prove that Kim was wrong.

        So key knew in July what KDC would say in September?
        Well, it’s lucky you’re making shit up on the fly, because (if it were true) that would simply raise even more questions about whether key’s been abusing his position as head of the security services.

        • James 8.1.1.1
          14 November 2014 at 4:06 pm

          You think it was going to be a “big shock” what KDC was going to come out with – esp given how he had spoken about it for so long.

          You think Key had to use security services to work that out?

          Still. The email was a brilliant killer blow wasnt it?

          • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2014 at 4:25 pm

            The gist was clear.
            The specifics? Nah. Not in july. KDC was pretty cagey about the specifics.

            But let’s just clarfiy what your position is: that Key accurately deduced the specifics of what kdc and co were going to talk about several months out. So key had material declassified in july, simply to call kdc a liar when the event was held. But key then withheld declassified material for months so its release could be timed for greatest political effect?

            Yes, that’s soooo much better /sarc
            1: if the material was okay to be declassified simply to score political points, it should not have been declassified in the first place.
            2: if it was not okay to be declassified in the first place, it should not have been declassified to score political points.
            3: once declassified, it should have been publicly released immediately.
            4: Timing the release of material that should be publicly availble, simply to score political points for the government, is pretty much as corrupt as they come.

            Good luck defending that behaviour.

            • Murray Rawshark 8.1.1.1.1.1
              14 November 2014 at 10:09 pm

              Our problem these days is that so many Kiwis’ powers of thinking have degenerated to the extent that they think this behaviour by “their” guy is totally acceptable. Surprisingly enough, I feel that this process began with Rogernomics and the first ACT government.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        14 November 2014 at 4:09 pm

        it was to prove that the information that was from the “moment of truth” was, well not truth.

        Except that it was the truth.

      • Tracey 8.1.3
        14 November 2014 at 4:18 pm

        Actually you may have just revealled that you didnt read the docs he released or you would know they did not disprove what key claimed.

        It also turns out some nsa spies are based in nz.

  9. Molly 9
    14 November 2014 at 12:27 pm

    A Herald article publishing the finding of the Waitangi Tribunal, that confirms (again):
    Waitangi Tribunal: Maori sovereignty not ceded to British.

    After a childhood growing up in a diverse neighbourhood, with ties to both Maori and Pakeha in my family, it was only coming back to NZ in my 30s, and moving to a predominantly white area that exposed me to the prejudice and lack of knowledge that I had not experienced before.

    It is good that the tribunal has published this finding. It will be interesting to see whether it contributes to a better awareness in government and communities. Although I’m not holding my breath.

    • weka 9.1
      14 November 2014 at 1:17 pm

      Thanks, that’s a good article.

    • Molly 9.2
      14 November 2014 at 3:46 pm

      Update: Paul Moon already has an article published in the Herald, Expert: Treaty ruling ‘distorts NZ history’ taking up more column inches and prominence than the Waitangi Tribunal ruling.

      The original article title has been changed from:
      “Waitangi Tribunal: Maori sovereignty not ceded to British.”
      to “Treaty Ruling: Crown still in charge.”

      Didn’t take long for that to occur.

    • Zolan 9.3
      14 November 2014 at 5:42 pm

      I was much encouraged to read such concrete findings from an official “court.” Hopefully, the ramifications will go beyond claims settlements and reshape NZ’s sociopolitical systems.

    • Murray Rawshark 9.4
      14 November 2014 at 10:18 pm

      I wasn’t exposed to complete ignorance about our history and society until I went to university in 1988 and began mixing with the children of Epsom and Remuera. It was a bit of a shock, because they weren’t thick and some of them weren’t horrible people. It just seemed as if they had part of their brain turned off.

  10. Clemgeopin 10
    14 November 2014 at 12:28 pm

    Two interesting interviews on the Laura Flanders Show with Arundhati Roy and Glen Greenwald I just watched. I am linking it here if any of you are interested.

    Debunking the Gandhi Myth: Arundhati Roy Author/activist on the Annihilation of Caste, B.R. Ambedkar and the Western myth of Mahatma Gandhi.

    And

    Glenn Greenwald addresses diversity concerns about his new media venture TheIntercept.com.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40211.htm

  11. joe90 11
    14 November 2014 at 2:52 pm

    Don Blankenship has been indicted, John Dow and his mates walked away.

    CHARLESTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) — The former chief of Massey Energy has been indicted in connection with the Upper Big Branch Mine disaster where 29 miners died in April 2010.

    The 47 page indictment was filed on Thursday.

    Blankenship was indicted by a federal grand jury on four counts.

    According to the federal indictment, Blankenship has been charged with conspiracy to willfully violate mandatory mine safety and healthy standards. The indictment alleges that Blankenship put profits ahead of safety.

    The second count; conspiracy to defraud the United States saying that he hampered or impeded the functions of the department of labor, MSHA and the administration at Upper Big Branch.

    http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Former-CEO-of-Massey-Energy-Indicted-in-UBB-Disaster-282617841.html

  12. chris73 12
    14 November 2014 at 3:11 pm

    For all of us that have tried rowing to various degrees of success we may (or may not) sympathize with this next clip (non-political I promise)

  13. Tracey 13
    14 November 2014 at 4:23 pm

    can someone help me out. The following article has confused me. A finding today from the waitangi tribunal says maori signatories never ceded sovereignty and that getting sovereignty was always the aim of the british. A professor specialising in the treaty says the evidence is clear, the brits never sought sovereignty… So why the article, if the british never sought sovereignty over maori, and the tribunal has got this part of the facts wrong, havent they still come to the right conclusion, namely that the brits didnt want sovereignty through the treay, and didnt get it!?

    Its friday, so i might have read it wrongly. I read it three times

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11358654 is

    • mickysavage 13.1
      14 November 2014 at 4:30 pm

      The comments are from Paul Moon. He may be the only historian in the country who thinks the treaty has no historical significance.

      • Tracey 13.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 6:55 pm

        Thanks mickey but isnt his position as quoted self defeating, namely that brits never sought sovereignty, ergo they never got it… Or is the bit missed out that he considers nz was conquered?

        • greywarshark 13.1.1.1
          16 November 2014 at 3:58 pm

          @ micky savage
          Doesn’t it then all come back to Contra_proferentem which says roughly that in an unequal agreement the meaning of it is what the minor party has supposed it to be?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

          Lewis Carroll in Through the Looking Glass expressed it well. It may be fiction but fact is stranger than fiction, and I didn’t make that one up.
          ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
          ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
          ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

    • Zolan 13.2
      14 November 2014 at 6:02 pm

      As I understand it, you read correctly. What matters is that Moon is choosing issues other than the core finding to cast doubt, before segueing to (paraphrase) “Since the Crown self-evidently excersizes authority in reality, there’s no point questioning it.”

      There is (again, as I understand) good reason to suppose that Britain didn’t really want responsibility for NZ, as Moon says.
      Perhaps the Tribunal shouldn’t have made any claim about that, but it can be usefully understood as assuming the strongest opposing case and still reaching the same conclusion, as in “Even if Britain intended …”

      • Tracey 13.2.1
        14 November 2014 at 6:59 pm

        Thanks.

        I guess i have assumed that so much has been made about sovereignty. If brits never sought it, how was it given. Does Moon suggest brits conquered maori? There must be a mechanism by which english law was imposed.

        What a strange way the herald chose to present whatever the argument is?

    • Murray Rawshark 13.3
      14 November 2014 at 11:40 pm

      Paul Moon is an author of children’s fiction disguised as historical scholarship. The Herald knew the opinion they were after when they asked him.

      • greywarshark 13.3.1
        16 November 2014 at 3:49 pm

        @ Murray R
        What is your opinion about Bruce Moon? And is he father to Paul or what?

        • Murray Rawshark 13.3.1.1
          16 November 2014 at 4:03 pm

          My opinion is that he is a despicable racist and white supremacist. Just like Ansell, and also factually wrong. I don’t know anything about who his offspring are.

          • greywarshark 13.3.1.1.1
            16 November 2014 at 5:27 pm

            @ Murray Rawshark
            Bruce Moon and rag-tag gang tried to take over the constitutional conversations. I had no idea that there was such a putrescent pocket of priggish racists in the country.

  14. Paul 14
    14 November 2014 at 5:03 pm

    Jim Mora on the Panel devoting an inordinate amount of time to the block.
    He also seemed very concerned that the reserve for the 4 houses in Point Chevalier ( ans Auckland suburb) wouldn’t be too low.
    I sense a conflict of interest here Jim.

  15. greywarshark 15
    14 November 2014 at 6:18 pm

    I went to a meeting talking about matters ecological and some of the ‘highlights’ and my thoughts, were –

    We import much phosphorous for putting on farms, and it usually contains cadmium.
    Cadmium is regarded as toxic above certain levels.
    Much phosphorous has been put on Waikato farms, and the cadmium level is mounting.
    It could be impossible to sell dairy products from the Waikato area by say 2030.
    If it can’t be exported I wonder where it will be sold?
    If the dairy farmers can’t make a good living off their expensive farm land what will they do with their land. once extremely productive?
    It is difficult to get information about this problem, the levels, the testing and getting transparency on this important matter may reveal that there are similar problems elsewhere.
    This would be an unfortunate matter for NZ as a whole.

    We need to find ways to process our human waste instead of throwing it away, treating it and pumping it to sea or spraying it on forest land.
    Urine is high in phosphorous.
    There are ways of treating human waste that would make it usable and safe for fertilisation.
    We use a lot of our water, which will become scarce, for transporting our waste to treatment plants.
    Perhaps the great system brought to us by Crapper, has reached its zenith and new ways need to be organised by responsible authorities.

    Phosphorous sources are running out worldwide.
    There are large areas licensed for exploration and possible exploitation of phosphorous on the seabed in the Chatham Rise to the south of NZ.
    This is low in cadmium.
    But presumably gathering it will interfere with the important feeding and breeding grounds for fish and their food there.
    It will add more noise in the sea which it is thought is causing stress and upsetting communication for large sea animals, like whales.

    • weka 15.1
      14 November 2014 at 7:09 pm

      Ae, peak phosphorous. Fortunately we don’t need isolated P to grow food. The real problem here is that we are farming for money rather than to produce food for nz and provide livelihoods for farmers. Is you want to run an economy on export dairy, you need fossil fuels and external inputs like P. If you want to grow food you can use sustainable land management instead that uses natural life cycles to maintain fertility.

      • Colonial Rawshark 15.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 11:56 pm

        We need lots of added P to maintain our industrial, monoculture farming regimes…

      • greywarshark 15.1.2
        15 November 2014 at 12:51 pm

        @ weka
        Murray R has pointed out I should have referred to phosphate. Sorry to give the wrong info. He points out that phosphorous is explosive, i think it may have been used in WW1 but really I don’t know my chemicals. Doh!

        • Murray Rawshark 15.1.2.1
          15 November 2014 at 5:41 pm

          Phosphorus is inflammable rather than explosive. Military forces such as the IDF like to use white phosphorus (Willie Pete) to set fire to Palestinian children. They are copying their funders, who set fire to Vietnamese children with it all those years ago.

          • weka 15.1.2.1.1
            15 November 2014 at 7:17 pm

            I was talking about phosphorus the element, the key part of phosphates when talking about agricultural dependence.

            From what I can tell phosphorous exists in nature in compounds, because of the instability that Murray refers to (is that right Murray? I’m not a chemist).

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_phosphorus

            • greywarshark 15.1.2.1.1.1
              16 November 2014 at 9:29 am

              @ Murray R
              Weka’s link explains about phosphorous/phosphate well. And the point is made again that it is likely to run out in 2030. I may be dead then, so perhaps I’ll get cremated and my family can sell me at high price to some dairy farmer to scatter on his fields. They would be prepared to do this, judging by their present blitz on everything we hold dear so they can get personal advantage. But this is what Wikipedia (did you give them a donation recently when they were asking) says:

              peak phosphorus to be reached in approximately 2030.[2][3] Whereas in stark contrast the International Fertilizer Development Center in a 2010 report estimates that global phosphate rock resources will last for several hundred years.[4] The predominant source of phosphorus comes in the form of phosphate rock and in the past guano.

              • weka …
                16 November 2014 at 11:17 am

                We don’t need mined phosphorus to farm. Currently we use it for agribusiness because it artificially props up fertility and allows farming for export/ excess profit. It is a highly unsustainable because it relies on fossil fuels and because the model destroys fertility (google peak soil). Then there’s the impending water crisis.

                Once peak phosphorus, peak oil, peak soil, the water crisis and AGW kick in we will be going back to the the farming humans have done successfully for thousands of years (including the more recent regenerative agriculture techniques).

                Not sure about cremation. I like the idea of it, but it’s hugely energy intensive. I’d be happy with my body being planted in a park or forest.

                • Clemgeopin …
                  16 November 2014 at 12:23 pm

                  I’d be happy with my body being planted in a park or forest.

                  I am seriously considering giving my body to science/medical college for student study.

                  I would be very grateful to hear your thoughts, pros and cons, on that. Cheers!

                  • weka …
                    16 November 2014 at 2:31 pm

                    I’d be more supportive of that if medical research was more focussed on preventative medicine rather than high tech, corporatised, ambulance at the bottom of the cliff medicine.

                    Med students? Are they short of bodies in med schools?

                  • greywarshark …
                    16 November 2014 at 3:48 pm

                    Just a thought about body gifting. I did hear some time ago that Otago had a sufficiency. Interesting that so many are willing. I would like your opinion on whether an old person’s organs are any good for the donor program? Eyes no good, have had a bit of cancer. Does that mean everything is tainted now? Last time I asked they didn’t want my blood.

                    • Clemgeopin …
                      16 November 2014 at 3:56 pm

                      I do not know as I have not yet explored the subject. Just a thought in my mind at the moment. I will need to think through this.

                      What you are stating concerns organ donation. My thought was about body being donated for medical research.

                    • greywarshark …
                      16 November 2014 at 4:02 pm

                      Sure Clemgeopin
                      But it doesn’t hurt to think around a subject. I thought you might have done. Sorry I got off the point.

    • b waghorn 15.2
      14 November 2014 at 7:47 pm

      If you go to ravinsdown website ,put cadmium in the search you’ll get some info .

      • greywarshark 15.2.1
        14 November 2014 at 10:34 pm

        Thanks wag
        This is from the Ravendsdown site. You will all be pleased to know that there is a Cadmium Management Group.
        Cadmium is a naturally-occurring, non-essential heavy metal which is present in low concentrations in air, water and soil. Cadmium naturally occurs in phosphate rock from which phosphate fertiliser is made.

        A monitoring programme run by the Ministry for the Primary Industries shows that the amount of cadmium in the diet of the average New Zealander is at a level far below that which would cause adverse health effects.
        Along with the New Zealand Fertiliser Association, other industry bodies and Federated Farmers, Ravensdown works with the Ministry for Primary Industries, Ministry for the Environment, regional councils and organisations such as Fonterra, Horticulture NZ and Beef + Lamb NZ as part of the Cadmium Management Group.

        But as mentioned earlier, all is well, and every little bit of the country is being measured and nothing to worry about. Comforting group pat on shoulders.
        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1403/S00081/national-soil-cadmium-database-updated.htm

        This item raises questions and is not from a government-fert pov. But I couldn’t find the date. I find it interesting how often people don’t date their work. It’s vital but that sharpness prompting people to precisely pin it down in time is lacking.
        http://www.ecofarm.co.nz/Farming/Farm+Owners+are+liable+For+Soil+Cadmium+Remediation+Costs.html

        And for the voracious information collector an interesting para on the feed of SI cows and in an item on why more are going lame from the panel at the side of the cadmium piece:
        On modern intensive dairy farms the forages offered to cows either as standing pasture or as supplements are generally monocultures of ryegrass. Natures intended role for plants is to address either soil mineral deficiencies or soil mineral excesses.
        Providing energy for grazing animals is a secondary role for the plant. The plant seeks to address mineral deficiencies by bringing deficient minerals up into the top soil and the excesses by uptaking and holding minerals out of the top soil for as long as the plant is alive.
        Nature has given ryegrass the task of dealing with excess potassium and nitrogen. The grazing animals, in this situation, consume sometimes toxic amounts of potassium nitrate hence elevated blood urea nitrogen levels.

    • Murray Rawshark 15.3
      14 November 2014 at 11:51 pm

      Do you mean phosphates? Phosphorus would be a bit of a fire hazard.

      • greywarshark 15.3.1
        15 November 2014 at 12:45 pm

        Thanks much Murray Rawshark
        I’ve noted down the wrong word and not remembered my chemicals properly.
        We have enough of a hazard with over-reliance on phosphates without thinking about combustible materials as well.

        Actually bloat which comes from runaway reactions in the cow’s gut or is it rumen, can actually cause an explosion and of course there is methane, fairly combustible, to try and reduce. (Do you know of the results from Japanese research into this agriculturally produced methane which I have read about, which we should have been doing ourselves, has been finished and published and utilised?)

  16. North 16
    14 November 2014 at 6:31 pm

    Delighted to hear from Jim Mora on Checkpoint that Angela Merkel has “backed” ‘Little Churchill’ Key’s pose on IS – when stating that for Germany there will be no troops sent in.

    Do you think Mr Jimmy Mensa Mora might be infatuated with ‘Little Churchill’ ?

  17. weka 17
    14 November 2014 at 7:15 pm

    Little was great on Checkpoint! Asked about Brian Edward’s saying he came across as dour and needed media training, Little said yes he did need media training, but as he had had done from Edwards before he wouldn’t be using him again. I understand what people mean about Little’s dry wit now. He went on to talk about his background in serous situations where you can’t giggle and joke, and how politics is a broader field than that. Acknowledgement that he has things to learn but a clear message that he knows not to make jokes about murderer sex offenders when on the international stage. I was pleasantly impressed (the Edwards bit made me laugh out loud).

  18. Goin-Broke 18
    14 November 2014 at 7:20 pm

    Has everyone almost from WO been banned from having a point of view?

  19. Chooky 19
    14 November 2014 at 7:42 pm

    Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert on the Bamboozle…political and financial elite corruption… also interview with Alayne Fleischmann, the JP Morgan whistleblower,

    http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/204779-episode-max-keiser-679/

    • Once Was Tim 19.1
      14 November 2014 at 9:08 pm

      Unfortunately @ Chooky, I seem to miss the Keiser report on 92 every time – and its due to the fact that Skoi TV are probably under-resourced and get the cleaners in to load the programme info in between cleaning loos. They’re an hour out I think and it still hasn’t dawned on them.

      • Chooky 19.1.1
        14 November 2014 at 10:08 pm

        ?…wot?…yu can get it on your computer

        • Once Was Tim 19.1.1.1
          14 November 2014 at 11:07 pm

          yep I can. Its not just Keiser tho’ – CrossTalk and other programmed I follow are a bit hit and miss on the ait, so as you suggest, it’ll be on the computer from now on. I should really do myself a favour and ditch Sky totally.

  20. Paul 20
    14 November 2014 at 7:43 pm

    Really interesting article.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/14/the-right-has-won-control-of-the-english-speaking-world-thanks-to-the-weakness-of-the-left

    Some highlights……

    “The right has won control of the English-speaking world – thanks to the weakness of the left. Over the last three decades, leftwing parties in the English-speaking world have taken on much of the right’s antidemocratic programme and lost their souls.”

    “…the right are enjoying a new heyday that puts the Thatcher and Reagan years in the shade. Australia is ruled by the most reactionary national government in its history. Stephen Harper, having first transformed Canadian conservatism into a simulacrum of the US Republican party, is now remodelling the country itself as a petro-state. In New Zealand, a scandal implicating prime minister John Key’s staff in the smearing of political rivals did not prevent his National party government being returned in September.

    ” Right now, they’re all committed to the negotiation of a Trans -Pacific Partnership that economist Joseph Stiglitz says benefits “the wealthiest sliver of the American and global elite at the expense of everyone else”.

    “It’s evident that this unabashed antagonism has underpinned the right’s most significant victories, which consist in making their opponents take on their positions. The addiction of the centre-left to neoliberal economic orthodoxy is the least of this.”

    “Elsewhere, and particularly in Latin America, it’s evident that democratic socialism is still a possibility, and a field of experimentation. Their leaders’ commitment to basic economic justice is not only something that the Anglosphere’s left ought to take on, but which may be necessary for its survival. Those who say we have nothing to learn from still-developing economies have not paid enough attention to regressive developments closer to home. The millions who have been and soon will be immiserated by the machinery of liberal capitalism will have little time for the morality tales of neoliberalism. If existing centre left parties do not speak to their demands, who will?”

    • Murray Rawshark 20.1
      15 November 2014 at 12:03 am

      I sometimes wonder if speaking English causes part of the brain to not function properly. On the other hand, it could just be hubris from thinking that we’re the rulers of the world. We really get indoctrinated with it right from birth, that Anglo Saxon is best, that civilisation went Babylon -> Egypt -> Greece -> Rome -> England -> Washington. I was amazed when I visited Eastern Europe and found out just what a rich history they had and how they did many things well before the English. I bet when Key is with Harper and Merkel, he makes tasteless jokes about Germans with Harper.

  21. Murray Rawshark 21
    14 November 2014 at 8:06 pm

    Now that prison populations are going up due to changes to the bail rules made by Gusher Collins, would it be worth doing an OIA request for communications between her office and Serco?

  22. greywarshark 22
    14 November 2014 at 9:50 pm

    The G20 – Here is a fast moving introduction and explanation. and after you have seen that you can go onto the heavier stuff that the Guardian has amassed and you will be pleased you are are up to date I am sure. You should know about it, I should know about it, and you can talk to your friends about it over the weekend, as they should…
    At the very least because a lot of money is being spent on it, an together they amount to representing 85% of the world-s economies, or trade, or wealth – I forget. NZ is hanging on as the dingy dinghy by a tender thread.
    G20 Brisbane 15-16 November 2014
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/nov/13/whats-the-point-of-the-g20-anyway-video

  23. Penny Bright 23
    14 November 2014 at 10:26 pm

    KEPT THE PRESSURE on OPPOSING THE TPPA!

    Friday 14 November 2014 from 4 – 6.30pm our crew of those who were available at very short notice – let our banners do the talking on the busy Victoria / Hobson St intersection, opposite NZ’s major money-laundering factory, Sky City casino.

    https://www.facebook.com/penny.bright.104/media_set?set=a.852990618046965.1073741825.100000081045781&type=1&pnref=story

    This is where NZ PM John Key was meeting German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

    We saw members of mainstream media – they saw us – but don’t know if anything was / will be reported.

    However, over the time we were there, during peak traffic, potentially thousands of people saw the signs …….

    All good!

    Intersection pickets are EXTREMELY effective.

    Will be good to have updated leaflets /posters to consolidate and expand growing public interest in this Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) – this ‘partnership’ which excludes the public and to which WE have not agreed!

    Looking forward to out next public outing of ex-Wall Street bank$ter John Key, current shareholder in the Bank of America.

    Whose interests is NZ Prime Minister John Key serving?

    Follow the dollar ……

    http://www.parliament.govt.nz/…/2e04287ad20ee5da12a308149e5… (Pg 30)

    ” Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament:

    Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2014

    Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)

    2 Other companies and business entities

    Little Nell – property investment, Aspen, Colorado

    Bank of America – banking … ”

    Penny Bright

    • Chooky 23.1
      14 November 2014 at 10:42 pm

      Go Penny!

    • fisiani 23.2
      14 November 2014 at 11:01 pm

      When are you going to pay your rates or do you want to be evicted and have your house sold? It will happen. When an ostrich sticks its head you can see more of its arse than its head.

      • Penny Bright 23.2.1
        14 November 2014 at 11:12 pm

        Oh – is that right fisiani?

        If you check my proven track record against ‘City Hall’ (both Auckland City Council, and Auckland Council) – you will find that although they have started legal proceedings against me on a number of occasions – they have lost more times than I.

        FACT.

        I have stuck my neck out way above the parapets, and can see very clearly the huge black hole that Auckland Council have dug for themselves by picking on the WRONG woman …..

        Kind regards,

        Penny Bright

      • Penny Bright 23.2.2
        14 November 2014 at 11:56 pm

        FYI – in 10 minutes – a VERY clear explanation of what the TPPA is all about:
        _________________________________________________________________________________________

        Why does Obama want the TPPA deal?

        Why all the secrecy?

        This American programme Need To Know says it’s pay back time to the giant corporates for funding him to become president.

        No – it’s not a conspiracy theory. Well worth the 10 min 50 sec watch to be informed about a deal that could deliver New Zealand into the hands of a few giant trans-national companies.

        http://bryanbruce.co.nz/feature/ethics-values/why-obama-pushing-so-hard-tppa
        _________________________________________________________________________________________

        Penny Bright

  24. fisiani 24
    14 November 2014 at 10:48 pm

    ROY MORGAN POLL The poll that Standardistas love.

    Nat 49.4% Labour 24% Greens 14.5%

    How low can Labour go? Why is National on a record high score?

    • Penny Bright 24.1
      14 November 2014 at 11:03 pm

      Because the public are NOT being told the truth about New Zealand’s ex-Wall Street bank$ter Prime Minister’s past and whose interests is NZ Prime Minister John Key serving?

      Follow the dollar ……

      http://www.parliament.govt.nz/…/2e04287ad20ee5da12a308149e5… (Pg 30)

      ” Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament:

      Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2014

      Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)

      2 Other companies and business entities

      Little Nell – property investment, Aspen, Colorado

      Bank of America – banking … ”

      Kind regards,

      Penny Bright

  25. greywarshark 25
    16 November 2014 at 9:33 am

    Only $10,400 to go and 8 days left to get eco film set up for a large release for vital information on Thin Ice. More than halfway there with donations.
    See on https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thinicefilm/editing-thin-ice-climate-science-documentary-for-b