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Open mike 16/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 16th, 2021 - 92 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

92 comments on “Open mike 16/07/2021 ”

  1. Stephen D 1

    Kieran McAnulty making the case for agriculture reform.

    Sorry about the cut and paste, couldn’t figure out how to link to Facebook.

    ”Anyone who knows me well knows that I am passionate about the Primary Sector. They know both sides of my family have farmed for generations, and that both my parents continue to work in the sector. They also know that I entered politics in part to work towards sustainable rural communities.

    I won’t be joining tomorrow’s protests. The sentiment behind them does not represent the whole sector and undermines the hard work of so many farmers who are keen to get ahead of the curve.

    Now is not the time to tread water. Maintaining the status quo or, God forbid, going backwards will not deliver for rural communities.

    We are a trading nation. Our prosperity depends on consumers choosing to buy our products. We have leveraged the 100% pure, clean and green image that we have cultivated over decades in order to extract the best price possible for our products.

    But we mustn’t assume that demand will continue as is. We have never targeted the cheapest markets – we have always sold to the most discerning customers in the world. They want quality, so they choose our products.

    However, markets change. And so too does consumer demand. The markets we are targeting want to know that if they are buying products from the bottom of the globe they can do so with a clear conscience. Consumers want to know their purchases are environmentally sustainable, that they are climate friendly, with high animal welfare standards and that the workers in the industry get a good wage with good conditions.

    We have led the world in this. Our farmers are the most efficient producers in the world. But, we aren’t as ahead of the pack as we used to be.

    We know there is a lot of change coming. And we know it is tough. We know there is concern about the pace of change. The Government hears that and has shown a willingness to amend things in order to make it work. We will continue to do so.

    We don’t agree with those who say it isn’t the Government’s job to lead on this.

    If we stop moving forward to address the impacts of climate change, allow further degradation of our fresh water and don’t do more to address animal welfare standards, there is no way we will meet this Government’s goal of working with the sector to achieve a $40b increase in export value.

    Because that’s what is at stake. We either get ahead of the curve and reap the benefits, or we slowly fall behind.

    We used to debate the ‘why’ – in 2003 the Government proposed a levy to invest in research on reducing methane emissions. That was protested and was scrapped. Now many – including those protesting tomorrow – are calling for such a fund.

    The ETS was introduced as a compromise following protests against a carbon tax. Now many are saying the ETS is flawed and a carbon tax would be better.

    I’m proud that as a country we have moved on from that. We no longer debate the ‘why’ and have moved on to discussing the ‘how’.

    I acknowledge the constructive work of industry bodies like Dairy NZ and Beef and Lamb, and the efforts made by companies like Fonterra. They understand what needs to be done. Yet the group behind tomorrow’s protests have criticised them for it. So many of the farmers I engage with every week are on board with what needs to be done and are getting on with it. My bet is many of them will be disappointed by tomorrow’s protests.

    I am disappointed too. Not necessarily because of the issues they are protesting – I discuss those with people every day. I am disappointed because of what I fear it will do. There is truth to the concept of an urban- rural divide. Some in urban areas don’t give enough credence to those farmers that have been doing their bit over many years. And farmers resent them for it. This is not where we need to be as a nation.

    So much work goes into trying to bring often urban-based environmental groups and farmers together, encouraging them to learn about each other’s perspectives. It is in meeting and learning where we develop respect for those we don’t really know. And we were making progress.

    It is my fear that tomorrow’s protests will undo this good work. It’ll make farmers look stubborn and resistant to change, which on the whole they are not. It’ll make them look like climate change deniers, which most of them aren’t. There will no doubt be someone that does or says something that will hurt the image of the farmers I know, and potentially, it’ll hurt how those overseas view us.

    The markets we are trying to enter have much stricter environmental and climate standards than us. They will look at our protests and wonder why we are opposing proposals that aren’t as harsh as those they have in their own countries. These are the very same people in the very same markets we want to sell more of our products to.

    So I won’t be joining the protests tomorrow, but I will continue to back the majority of farmers who want the best price for their products, the best for the environment and the best for our country.”

    • Ad 1.1

      So do you have an actual opinion, or are you just good for a rip and dump?

      • Stephen D 1.1.1

        Thanks for the affirmation.

        In total agreement with Kieran McAnulty. Especially when he makes the point how our markets are getting more picky about from whom they buy. As an agricultural trading nation, farmers should be wanting to give markets offshore reasons to buy from us, not reasons not to.

        On a personal level, I used to be able to catch trout in the Ruamahanga River. Probably not so much now.

    • Graeme 1.2

      Yeah, saw that on fb last night, good forward thinking leadership that’s shared by a lot of farmers

      But the pull of the rugby club locker room ‘wadrrrya’ is still strong.

      Their slogan

      No farmers

      No growers

      No food

      should really be

      No change

      No markets

      No farmers

      Which is what McAnulty is saying simplified to a slogan

      • bwaghorn 1.2.1

        Yip bunch grizzling wind bags, that can't handle change, imho

        Apart from the ute tax ,I still think for a public good tax to be fair it has to be avoidable, and the ute tax is not for farmers.

        • Graeme 1.2.1.1

          The ute tax is avoidable now, you just don’t buy a new ute for a couple of years when there will be alternatives, unfortunately they probably won’t be Toyota.
          Think it’ll be a very different picture in a couple of years

      • I Feel Love 1.2.2

        A placard on a bridge down here says "I live in New Zealand not Aotearoa, stop ramming Māori (sic) down our throats" & an anti communism one.

    • pat 1.3

      Good to see some sense being spoken….thanks for posting McAnulty's piece.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    Given at least one of the organisers of today's protests was a candidate for the crank Advance NZ party I look forward to seeing Judith being filmed on her tractor with someone waving an anti-vax banner behind her.

    • Forget now 2.1

      With the Groundswell ad inviting; "Bring your tractor, ute, and the dogs", the hopes of the Dunedin supporters for a calm event may be in vain:

      {Groundswell co-founder Bryce McKenzie said} "If somebody is angry about what’s happening and they’re thinking about coming on a tractor, we’d ask them not to do that…

      Federated Farmers national president Andrew Hoggard said there was a real risk of the agricultural sector being made out to look like "a bunch of fringe nutters".

      A big concern was offensive signage being brought to the protests, which would do more harm than good.

      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/hopes-howl-protest-will-strike-right-note

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/125759839/what-are-aotearoas-farmers-actually-protesting-about-this-friday

      Though with the weather today, no one is going to be looking at the signs much except as improvised umbrellas. If you howl in a gale, does it make a sound?

      • woodart 2.1.1

        . If you howl in a gale, does it make a sound? great question.

        • bwaghorn 2.1.1.1

          It does but like pissing in the wind it's not fun and might back fire.

          • Forget now 2.1.1.1.1

            The weather in Dunedin has cleared up a lot since dawn, so the rain is probably most of the way to Chch (& west coast!) by now. At least it's not another cabin feverish school holiday.

            Links from mobile not working today, so I will probably ease off commenting until I am back at my laptop. ODT had coverage of event- featuring a one month ultimatum for the government to knuckle under (no specific consequences threatened for not doing so though). Also some minor assault of a counterprotester – but the Octagon has HD cameras everywhere, so it will be interesting to see how that pans out.

            • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1.1

              dickhead did it in front of an odt camera. Snuck up from a blind spot and snatched it. And another brave man held a profarming sign in front of her face when she was talking to the camera. Looked pleased with himself for being so innovative, too.

              She was having none of it. Good for her.

              • Gabby

                Naturally the police were out in force taking pics and ticketing tractors without warrants for road travel.

                • McFlock

                  I was thinking about that.

                  Don't forget checking that all the cockies had their odometers on, tracking their fuel use for RUC. lol as if.

            • The Al1en 2.1.1.1.1.2

              The deluge currently hitting the West coast is coming in from the north, and has been since yesterday.

              Unless my geographic and meteorology knowledge has taken a hit, I doubt any weather you had in Dunedin this morning has headed up our way.

    • Fireblade 2.2

      Stay safe on the roads today everyone and keep away from those wild-eyed farmers hooning in their Utes. devil

    • Matiri 2.3

      Re one of the organisers being a candidate – Advance NZ is deregistering as a political party as of today. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/07/jami-lee-ross-political-party-advance-new-zealand-deregistering.html

  3. Jenny how to get there 3

    It is not often I have been in the majority

    Small majority believe there is still time to avert climate disaster – survey

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/05/small-majority-believe-there-is-still-time-to-avert-climate-disaster-survey?

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    "Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern will chair the "informal leaders' retreat" over video-conference late Friday night – the first time the Asia Pacific bloc has held such talks ahead of its regular November event. United States President Joe Biden, China President Xi Jinping, and Russia President Vladimir Putin have all confirmed their participation."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/447012/hopes-something-significant-will-come-from-apec-meeting-chaired-by-ardern

    Xi & Putin must have gleaned some basis of common interest in the preliminary plan of the teleconference agenda. I applaud the PM's initiative and hope her scheme includes a proactive design – the pandemic thus far seems to have induced mostly reactive responses by nations.

    "In a statement issued on Monday, Ardern said she would invite the leaders to discuss "immediate measures to achieve more coordinated regional action to assist recovery". She later told reporters not to expect any significant breakthroughs or announcements out of the discussion."

    Yeah, best to minimise expectations. I presume her officials have proposed possible regional co-ordinations and perhaps advance negotiation has prompted similar suggestions from other administrations. Seems history will be made tonight if sufficient common ground is established.

    "Otago University professor of international relations Robert Patman said it was a "bold initiative" for New Zealand to convene such a meeting and spoke to Ardern's clout on the world stage."

    Any player is only as good as their latest performance – in the minds of the audience & other players – so hers tonight will depend on the quality of the thinking and planning involved. Good to see her advancing Aotearoa's leadership capacity anyway.

    ""She's in quite a strong position to point out to great powers like China and the United States… they need to co-operate more, because the alternative model of rivalry and name-calling has not worked." Patman said he expected Ardern would urge the economies to take a collaborative approach in the face of the global pandemic, in particular regarding vaccines."

    He's right to remind us that collaborative endeavour ought to accompany competition between nations. Those in younger generations with a global outlook will be encouraged by a renewal of the balance between the two.

  5. millsy 5

    Imagine marching in aspiration for New Zealand to become like Somalia or India.

    • mickysavage 6.1

      I might do a post on the weekend about this. There are two jaw dropping passages in the article:

      “There is a brief psychological assessment of Trump, who is described as an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex”.

      There is also apparent confirmation that the Kremlin possesses kompromat, or potentially compromising material, on the future president, collected – the document says – from Trump’s earlier “non-official visits to Russian Federation territory”.

      The paper refers to “certain events” that happened during Trump’s trips to Moscow. Security council members are invited to find details in appendix five, at paragraph five, the document states. It is unclear what the appendix contains.

      “It is acutely necessary to use all possible force to facilitate his [Trump’s] election to the post of US president,” the paper says.”

      And Trump’s response:

      “This is disgusting. It’s fake news, just like RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA was fake news. It’s just the Radical Left crazies doing whatever they can to demean everybody on the right.

      “It’s fiction, and nobody was tougher on Russia than me, including on the pipeline, and sanctions. At the same time we got along with Russia. Russia respected us, China respected us, Iran respected us, North Korea respected us.

      “And the world was a much safer place than it is now with mentally unstable leadership.”

    • Brigid 6.2

      You missed the '/sarc' attribute

      Since Luke Harding's hilarious fiction featuring Manafort and his visit to Julian Assange in the Ecuadorian embassy there's not much reason to believe anything Harding writes is not incredible.

      FYI

      https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/12/06/assa-d06.html

  6. Jenny how to get there 7

    We've all heard about casual racism

    How about casual fascism?

    In the US the far right have linked their cause, to the cause of the oil companies, with the belief, (encouraged by big oil), that climate change is a conspiracy spread by Leftists to destroy the American way of life.

    Just like the unprovoked attacks on blacks and Asians by white supremacists. There have been many documented unprovoked attacks on Americans who choose to drive electric cars.

    Apart from many acts of vandalism of parked electric cars, and screamed abuse and obscene gestures, one way Right Wing conspiracy theorists have attacked electric car owners is the practice known as ICEing. ie organised blocking of electric charging stations by large SUVs and other Internal Combustion, ICE vehicles preventing electric car owners recharging their batteries.

    Anti-Tesla pickup truck drivers take over a Supercharger station again

    https://electrek.co/2019/01/01/tesla-pickup-truck-drivers-supercharger-protest/?

    Apart from low level intimidation like ICEing there have been numerous unprovoked shooting attacks on electric cars.

    • Jenny how to get there 7.1

      Another tactic used by these extremists, is altering your exhaust to pour smoke to blind electric car drivers or anyone else they take offence at. Like 'ICEing' this practice is also common enough to have a name, and is known as 'Rolling Coal'.

      • mac1 7.1.1

        If this wasn't a serious manifestation of a malfunctioning society and mind-set, I'd suggest that EV owners placate the attention-drawing neediness of such ICE owners by installing speakers under their vehicles rear where exhaust pipes would otherwise be, and play the vibrant sounds of Harleys at full-throated acceleration, the song of a 12 cylinder straight pipe racing boat engine or a tourist space rocket at take-off. That should convince these ICErs that EV owners are real men.

  7. Chris 8

    I hope the tenant appeals this decision. $700 for this level of harassment from a landlord is less than what’s awarded when the bond’s not lodged with Tenancy Services. Ridiculous.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/renting/125751215/auckland-landlord-harassed-tenant-to-the-point-he-needed-antianxiety-medication

  8. Robert Guyton 9

    Some are wondering if the farmers’ “howl” will harm their image:

    The poster boy on the right is named, Robbie "Gooserooter" Shefford, according to his Facebook page.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-business/howl-protest-thousands-farmers-prepare-march-through-47-towns-and-cities.

  9. pat 11

    "A 1972 MIT study predicted that rapid economic growth would lead to societal collapse in the mid 21st century. A new paper shows we’re unfortunately right on schedule."

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3xw3x/new-research-vindicates-1972-mit-prediction-that-society-will-collapse-soon

    “BAU2 and CT scenarios show a halt in growth within a decade or so from now,” the study concludes. “Both scenarios thus indicate that continuing business as usual, that is, pursuing continuous growth, is not possible. Even when paired with unprecedented technological development and adoption, business as usual as modelled by LtG would inevitably lead to declines in industrial capital, agricultural output, and welfare levels within this century.”

    Study author Gaya Herrington told Motherboard that in the MIT World3 models, collapse “does not mean that humanity will cease to exist,” but rather that “economic and industrial growth will stop, and then decline, which will hurt food production and standards of living… In terms of timing, the BAU2 scenario shows a steep decline to set in around 2040.”

    “The necessary changes will not be easy and pose transition challenges but a sustainable and inclusive future is still possible,” said Herrington.

    The best available data suggests that what we decide over the next 10 years will determine the long-term fate of human civilization."

  10. Adrian 12

    We in the south are in for a seriously damaging rain event. Let’s run a book on how many hours on from the protest it will take for the first “ agriculture spokesman “ to go on tv and demand more money from the government for reinstatement.

    My pick is in the single figures, about 6. Hypocrits Without Shame.

    Disclosure, I’m a farmer.

  11. Sanctuary 13

    The seven demands of the farmers protest is an exceptionalist wonder –

    https://groundswellnz.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/GROUNDSWELL-position-statement.pdf

    It amounts to a polluters charter to do as they please to our waterways and head in the sand climate change denialism.

    This inchoate protest in the face of overwhelming public rejection of their demands has to be seen in the context of the collapse of the National party as a viable political opposition. These people clearly feel they no longer have a mechanism to hijack public policy in their favour.

    • weka 13.1

      good point about the collapse of National.

      The list is incredibly self-serving. It also looks like 'trust us, because we're very important'. Hubris.

      • Graeme 13.1.1

        Damien O’Connor’s warning about not being too cocky like tourism had beed was very apt

        Tourism’s cockiness destroyed any social license or goodwill the industry had with the New Zealand public. Being on the receiving end of the public’s wrath in our gallery over the last year hasn’t been pleasant.

        Farmers risk a similar loss of social license that’s probably only going to polarise the situation even more

        • weka 13.1.1.1

          what have the public been saying to you at the gallery?

          Yeah, I suspect the farmers are misjudging the public mood here. Might be messaging Labour more?

  12. Adrian 14

    A point missed by most is that farm utes etc are tax depreciated by 20% per annum, therefore after 5 years owners have not paid any tax on earnings equal to the cost of the vehicle. This is not available to anybody else owning a vehicle including most of the people who work for them.

    Every one of the utes in that protest is running on subsidised fuel to the tune of whatever tax rate the owner is on, which for most is fuck all because of all the accumulated depreciation on every bit of gear they own.

    They are hypocrites because they amount to the most wealthy group of state beneficaries in the country.

    • pat 14.1

      Exactly…the tax is a complete red herring

      • aom 14.1.1

        Not up on this stuff, but isn't the tax going to hit the pseudo tradesmen who have the bright shiny double-cabs for mum to drop them and the kids off at work and school then claim rebates?

        • pat 14.1.1.1

          Only in initial outlay….it will all be written off (depreciated) against income, not to mention the GST rebate

          • Herodotus 14.1.1.1.1

            The farm like any other business that is registered for gst is only collecting this tax for the govt and the pays out to them. The end unregistered (you and me) pay the gst to the ird. and gst costs or charges are not the companies, and there are mechanisms within the tax system to account for private benefits gst portion, so the gst rebate has no benefit to the farm.
            And for those comments below an example of where there is personal use, if the Ute is used to transport the family to and return the airport for a holiday, or the Ute is used to tow the boat to the crib for a holiday.😉

            • pat 14.1.1.1.1.1

              but if as you have stated only that portion of income generating activity is applied to the asset then the same applies to the end user argument with regard to the GST applied to said asset….which as I noted upthread is all moot because both the income generating activity v private benefit and subsequent tax implications are widely ignored.

    • Herodotus 14.2

      "This is not available to anybody else owning a vehicle" – you are wrong same as not taking into account personal use , but don't let that get in the way for your argument, hate to read an argument based on straw !!!!

      What do you think happens to those vehicles used for any business . e.g trucks, buses, tractors etc

      Do you also not understand about costs incurred to earn a profit being deducted, and when the vehicle is sold then any depreciation recovered is taxed.

      Also the personal use is not deductible "Examples include gasoline, oil, fuel, water, rent, electricity, telephone, automobile upkeep, repairs, insurance, interest and taxes. Farmers must allocate these expenses between their business and personal parts. Generally, the personal part of these expenses is not deductible"
      ps you claim to be a farmer I am reminded of William Joyce when I read that

      • pat 14.2.1

        and then theres the real world….where personal use is seldom separated out, or it is 'legitimised' and the fact that the enforcement is seldom applied.

      • Get real a farmer with a utility/truck can have 100% deductibility and so too a tradie with his or her sign written on it.

      • Incognito 14.2.3

        FYI, Adrian has been commenting here for 9 years AFAIK and is on record as being a farmer. You were saying?

      • Drowsy M. Kram 14.2.4

        Not a real farmer eh?

        Will these things really matter 30 years from now? [thanks to pat for that link]
        Hold on to hope, best of luck, and don't take your eye off the ball wink

        The best available data suggests that what we decide over the next 10 years will determine the long-term fate of human civilization. Although the odds are on a knife-edge, Herrington pointed to a “rapid rise” in environmental, social and good governance priorities as a basis for optimism, signalling the change in thinking taking place in both governments and businesses. She told me that perhaps the most important implication of her research is that it’s not too late to create a truly sustainable civilization that works for all.

      • Adrian 14.2.5

        One vehicle and associated running costs is fully deductible, any further vehicle that is used at anytime for farm or job related tasks is deductible on a percentage basis.

        Farm workers driving to work don’t get any deductibles, it can be 50kms here and back for some so I pay extra to cover fuel costs for those who work for us.

        If you don’t think the deductibility regime isn’t rorted Herod you are dreaming and talking out your arse.

        • Adrian 14.2.5.1

          Just had a look at the photos from the protests and I’m pretty sure most of those tractors are brand new and have come straight off a dealers yard, the giveaway is the wheels, it doesn’t take many hours on a farm until they look secondhand.

          Yes, I’m inside looking at an iPad, but after 8 hours in the pissing rain I’m at least allowed a cup of tea, tax deductible of course!

        • Herodotus 14.2.5.2

          The government/ird have viewed commuting to and from work as private travel – as it occurs outside work hours. And the same applies to all workers not just those working on farms. And in the city the further out you live the cheaper property is but the more expensive it is to travel in terms on time and running costs, and ask our great leaders why public transport priorities are for the inner sections of the city and on the margins PT is marginal to non-existent at best.

          And I am not that naive to believe that this is being rorted.

      • mac1 14.2.6

        Adrian is a farmer. I've been on his property. I've known the man for over twenty years- an independent, forceful thinker and a bloody hard worker. His very decent rosé is far less red than his politics.

  13. Nic181 16

    Is it just me or can anyone else see the irony of this. On the day farmers have a Howly bag protest over water and climate change issues, climate change delivers yet another red warning event on the West Coast. This within weeks of a similar event in South Canterbury. Both are prominent dairy farming areas. Farmers are evacuating ahead of flooding and I expect they will hold their hand out for government assistance, just like the last lot. Howl of protest accompanied by howling rain. It’s almost justice!

  14. Herodotus 17

    I thought there was no more money available (same was said by the government regarding the teachers) until there was more, $408m more. Glad to see the government starting to listen and show some appreciation towards this well deserving sector. Pity we had to go thru this process with the government staring down the nurses. These nurses deserve everything they get and IMO still more is required.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nurses-lift-strike-notices-after-revised-pay-contract-offer-now-for-members-to-decide/ZYAUGWC23N56ZQUQFPYUTQF7D4/

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