Open mike 16/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2021 - 208 comments
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208 comments on “Open mike 16/10/2021 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    16 October 2021 at 7:05 am

    Thought experiments have been part of the praxis of physicists the past century so the technique ought to work in politics too. You start with an hypothesis. For instance, that the Three Kings suburb of Auckland was thus named due to a prophecy that one day Aotearoa would be ruled by three kings simultaneously.

    A tad unlikely? So is most of physics. King Charles III is one contender, obviously, and the Maori king another. Sir John Key attempted to out the third recently: the hermit king of Aotearoa. Privacy law protects his anonymity, of course, but there has been the threat of investigative journalism in the past. Nowadays nobody is going it (with the possible exception of the old bald-headed geezer David Lomas) so the royal hermit need no longer fear exposure.

    We know how everyone loves royals – ubiquitous featuring in women's mags always reinforces the point. A possible invalidation of the triumvirate theory is the tight definition of rule, so we go with the looser option: rule by influence rather than rule by decree. Mana. Advice. Guidance.

    Trump drove a stake through the heart of the Republican vampire, so that threat is gone. The republican movement never took root here anyway. Not part of our ethos. So I anticipate a collegial arrangement in which the three kings consult in a suitable venue and then hold audience to proclaim their consensual view of the political trajectory of the nation. Makes sense to put the venue in the suburb of Three Kings. If you see a developer knocking down current buildings on a block there, let me know. The palace needs to be grand – perhaps a design competition will attract global expertise? Great for tourism too. Oh, wait…

    • Ad 1.1
      16 October 2021 at 7:15 am

      We only have three functional rulers: ANZ headquarters Melbourne, CBA headquarters Sydney, and ………… oh wait it's two.

    • miravox 1.2
      16 October 2021 at 12:25 pm

      We know how everyone loves royals – ubiquitous featuring in women's mags always reinforces the point.

      Ah the royals. The gloss should be turning to rust. But I guess charlie, willie and georgie fit the bill for out-dated concepts while still attempting to be relevant.

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/15/green-royals-saving-the-planet-helicopter-queen-charles-william-climate

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 1:05 pm

        I wonder why the reporter felt the need to reveal that she was somewhat alienated by the fact that Charles "had his Aston Martin converted to run on “surplus English white wine and whey from the cheese process”.

        Does the notion of fossil-fuel avoidance piss her off? Or was it the notion that English white wine is surplus to requirements? You can imagine how she felt at having to report on "a withering assessment from Prince William on the various billionaire space programmes". Due to their use of fossil fuels, I presume.

        How can an enterprising reporter continue to support the establishment when those at the top of the hierarchy are so keen on being subversive? I bet she has to keep clutching her pearls when trying to cognite the thought.

        Friday’s big news, however, is that the Queen has been overheard at the opening of the Welsh parliament yesterday expressing frustration with the pace of concrete action on climate change. According to Her Maj, who is still in the dark about which world leaders are going to show up to next month’s big conference in Glasgow, “It’s really irritating when they talk, but they don’t DO.”

        Almost as if Queenie is starting to connect the dots, eh? And

        is this the same Queen whose lawyers very recently lobbied the Scottish government in secret to change a draft law to exempt her private estates from a major carbon-cutting initiative ? Yes. Yes, it is the same Queen. As a result of this, the sovereign is the only landowner in the whole of Scotland who doesn’t have to facilitate renewable energy pipelines on her various estates in the country.

        Ha! Reporter ought to have recalled that Queenie was brainwashed into the Church of England as a child. Christians do hypocrisy way better than anyone else on Earth. She's just toeing the party line automatically. Dots not connected.

        Her critique does have merit though. Charles ought to appoint an ethics advisor to his considerable staff. He's led by example admirably most of his life but as trainee king he needs to clean up the authenticity angle.

  2. Forget now 2
    16 October 2021 at 7:27 am

    So this wasn't an empty threat, and the clock is ticking until Tuesday evening!

    The letter from Tam’s barrister Ron Mansfield, QC, sent this morning called on Peters “to honestly account for your false comments about him [Tam] and the harm that those comments have caused him and the community”…

    The letter requests a public statement of apology by 5pm on October 19 to avoid further defamation action which would seek damages. Tam intends to donate any such damages to KidsCan charity…

    “In doing so, you were prepared to defame Mr Tam. Even worse, as far as Mr Tam is concerned, you were prepared to damage his ability to be effective within our community to ensure that his immediate community was vaccinated and safe,” the letter says.

    “Mr Tam believes that if we are all vaccinated we protect each other, personally and financially. This Government had the political courage to communicate with gangs and risk ill-informed public backlash and by doing so everyone has and will benefit.”…

    The legal letter says Tam simply wants a retraction and an apology from Peters in an “agreed form” that could be distributed by all New Zealand media.

    “He [Tam] had hoped, now that you know you were wrong, that you may have done so honourably by now,” Mansfield writes.

    “Sadly, it appears you are content to let this falsehood spread. Your apology should be made publicly by you in person and available to all mainstream media.”

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/tam-threatens-legal-action-against-peters

    Peters isn't going to be able to get out of this one with a; sorry you were so sensitive and got offended by my words, brushoff. The putting it in terms of; sabotaging the vaccine rollout in hard to reach populations, was pretty smart of Tam and Mansfield. But is Peters physically able to apologize to an unperson such as Tam, or will he choke on his words? Popcorn time!

    • Gezza 2.1
      16 October 2021 at 8:02 am

      M&Ms for me 😀

      Well, that seems to answer the question will Tam really go thru with a defamation action if he doesn’t get a public apology & a retraction from Peters.

      This is the typical groundwork for a defamation case. Should be interesting. More work for Brian Henry, I expect.

      Has Winston ever apologised for public utterances he had no proof for? Can’t recall any at the present time. He may have to fess up 🙏🏼 or pay up 💵💰❓

      • Gezza 2.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 8:34 am

        If Harry really is as pure as the driven snow on this matter – which this letter is a strong indication is indeed the case – then Winston Peters definitely fired off his volley in completely the wrong direction.

        But it does perhaps beg the question: “Who loaded & cocked Winston’s gun? And why?

        N’est-ce pas?

        • dv 2.1.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 8:42 am

          “Who loaded & cocked Winston’s gun? And why?

          That is a very good question.

          • Forget now 2.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 8:46 am

            Slater would be my guess, but I am not about to go toshing in his sewer to find out:

            “The social media sites that made this claim have no credibility and also did not refer to any credible basis for making such a claim. When you claimed that you were certain of your source, you simply lied,” Mansfield writes.

            • dv 2.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 9:00 am

              Cant wait for Slater to be named as the credible sourceangel

              • Shanreagh …
                16 October 2021 at 10:31 am

                Peters is not the type to come out unarmed, even if it is only with a pop-gun. wink

                As I have learned from watching the Texans on the sad sorry anti antivax site

                'He's not usually all hat and no cattle'

          • Treetop 2.1.1.1.2
            16 October 2021 at 9:52 am

            There appears to be a breakdown in communication with Peter's source.

            Peter's isn't the one laughing, neither is Tam.

      • Cricklewood 2.1.2
        16 October 2021 at 1:35 pm

        Winston won't apologize and I doubt Harry Tam would want to appear in court or even participate in discovery.

        Will fizzle out

    • gsays 2.2
      16 October 2021 at 8:22 am

      I am sure there are a few be-wigged lawyers that would love to stick it to Peters, all in the name of a good cause, of course. KidsCan.

    • Jester 2.3
      16 October 2021 at 9:02 am

      Yes time for Winston to either front up with evidence, or shut up and apologise. Both would probably be a first.

  3. Gezza 3
    16 October 2021 at 7:29 am

    The cute little sparrow hen the Sparrer Farno sent to perch two feet in front of me, when I was standing at the fence looking down at the stream, to ask when lunch was being served at Gezza’s Bird Café.

    https://i.imgur.com/WCZ8XBa.gif

  4. chris T 4
    16 October 2021 at 8:36 am

    One just out of interest, as imagine the majority of people on here are half/fully vaxed already. An extremely rough and amateur survey of the Standard posters.

    Are you going to actively (and not accidently put the channel on) watch the vaxathon?

    My vote is I will be avoiding the thing like the plague as its cheesey as btw. Just a photo shoot for politicians and an embarrassing day for other kiwi celebs, who genuinely want to help but will end up looking a bit silly.

    Having said that. If it gets another couple of 10k vaxed, cheesey as, or not. It can only be a good thing in the long run.

    And it is has a certain funny factor, that it was John Keys idea., he got slagged off for on here. laugh

    • francesca 4.1
      16 October 2021 at 10:07 am

      No Im not going to watch it. I dont really like circuses either, and felt queasy, hanging back at lolly scrambles as a kid.And it’s a beautiful day here.I’m not going to waste it in front of the telly

    • KJT 4.2
      16 October 2021 at 10:38 am

      Both.

      Exposed to border workers.

      BTW. The Vaxathon was not bloody well Keys idea. Many others were suggesting it months before Key was re-excavated from the grave.

      If it works, all good.

      National party politicians have made a practice of suggesting things that they knew were going to happen anyway, and taking credit for it. Another type of dis honesty they seem to think is acceptable.

      • chris T 4.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 10:43 am

        No offence, but severely doubt the current Labour govt would have thought of it without prompting, given their record,

      • Treetop 4.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 12:08 pm

        …before Key was re – excavated from the grave.

        A bit early for Halloween.

      • chris T 4.2.3
        16 October 2021 at 12:26 pm

        "BTW. The Vaxathon was not bloody well Keys idea. Many others were suggesting it months before Key."

        Care to post a link? As it was no one from Labour till Key suggested it on all the national news media.

        Lets face it. If it is a success, which I hope it is, we all know Ardern won't thank him, when she should.

          • chris T 4.2.3.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 12:37 pm

            Kind of meant in NZ and not some obscure website in the US no one would have seen and you took over 5 minutes to google to find, but all good.

            Some random yank on a website no one in NZ would ever see also thought of it.

            Ardern probably got it from there, and not just watched the news with Key on it.

            • joe90 4.2.3.1.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 12:41 pm

              Because Johnny Mee would never read a fucking newspaper and think...now there's an idea I'll call my own.

              /

              • chris T …
                16 October 2021 at 12:48 pm

                Putting aside the immature name calling

                The thing looks like it is working out pretty well so far.

                No one can seriously be that defensive that the idea came from another team when Ardern is the one that achieves the success from it (assuming it will carry on being one throughout the day)

                That is just hate for things that is pointless hating

                • joe90 …
                  16 October 2021 at 1:06 pm

                  Don't worry sport, my visceral loathing for the creepy AF trichophiliac ain't just pointless hating.

                  • chris T …
                    16 October 2021 at 1:17 pm

                    Fair enough. It just comes across that way.

                    Put it this way.

                    I think that despite her failings Clark was a good PM. Despite Keys failings Key was a good PM. Despite her failings Ardern is a good PM (with the only side note of her never actually answering questions in interviews and well trained PR speak).

                    I don't feel the need to call any of them names. If you do. All good.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      16 October 2021 at 2:23 pm

                      with the only side note of her [PM Ardern] never actually answering questions in interviews

                      "Never"? Typical partisan hyperbole. Imho 'Honest John' was ever the political dilettante – never ‘dirtied’ his hands. Unlike the current 'leader' of the National party – no love lost there.

                    • KJT …
                      16 October 2021 at 3:47 pm

                      After nearly two years of Adern "answering questions" openly, honestly and with precision and a myriad of facts at her fingertips, that have been addressed to her with a mysoginistic, ignorant hostility Key never had to face…………..
                      Facing up to people, I use the word in it’s broadest sense, like O brian, Wall, Hoskings and Garner, who seem incapable of comprehending what they heard five minutes ago, would test a Saint.

                      V's Key, who I actually give some credit to, for things like raising welfare payments for the first time for a while, and avioding the pressure from within his party to go for destructive austerity in the GFC as the right wing did elsewhere, was a Master of deflection and burying a question in "o shucks" verbiage. Helped by interviewers whose fawning over the wealthy Hero, was embarrassing.

                  • chris T …
                    16 October 2021 at 2:38 pm

                    Sorry Drowsy but working on tiny lap top and can't actually read the images for Collins

                    Lets face it. I think you have to admit both Key and Ardern are one offs in their generations even if you irrationally hate Key.

                    I just found Key actually answered questions more often rather than rambling PR.

                    Trying to remember what Ryan Bridges opinion was. Not his words, but it was something like she could talk the arse off a donkey and not say anything. And I tend to agree. But then that deserves respect as it is a very good skill. And to do it and still have dumb people thinking you are ace is an even better one.

    • Treetop 4.3
      16 October 2021 at 10:39 am

      I will tune in and out of the vaxathon coverage.

      A good idea from Key, first jab sorted. Second jab needs sorting???

      • chris T 4.3.1
        16 October 2021 at 10:55 am

        I think the second one is the big issue tbh.

        My own, which I put down to me being probably having a bug, or basically just a weirdo, with first aside (probably shouldn't have mentioned)

        I have said it before, but the amount of times I have heard from various sources the second vax is a sorer arm or slight nausea was getting a bit silly, given it is only 24 hours or so.

        Geezes she aint a broken arm. It is just a bit of discomfort for 24 hours in most cases and sorted. Get over yourself.

        • dv 4.3.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 11:02 am

          No sorer for 2nd vax may be a day where arm was sore when touched

          • Forget now 4.3.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 11:12 am

            It was more the loss of mental clarity that made even simple addition challenging for a day or two (let alone any statistical analyses) that I found difficult with my second vax. I made the the mistake of having my first vax in my dominant arm, which did mess me up some. The second I had in my non-dominant (submissive?) arm, and barely noticed that unless I needed to reach something up over my shoulder level.

        • Treetop 4.3.1.2
          16 October 2021 at 11:38 am

          The change of weather can bring on tummy bugs.

          When you have a good chuck, you always feel better afterwards. The nausea appears to be sorted.

          I had my second jab yesterday in my L arm. 2 weeks ago I had an iron infusion in R arm, (needle connected to the line is in for an hour). Crazy where the needle went in for the iron infusion the sight became sore 2 days before the second Covid jab. No issue with any previous lines.

      • Treetop 4.3.2
        16 October 2021 at 3:04 pm

        Edit: A good half idea from Key, first jab sorted. Second jab needs sorting???

    • Patricia Bremner 4.4
      16 October 2021 at 11:57 am

      47 000 so far Chris T. Is John Key helping somewhere? Or is he all p… and wind or got his golf hat on as usual?

      • chris T 4.4.1
        16 October 2021 at 12:19 pm

        It's a good number 47,000

        Well done to the person that mentioned the idea

      • chris T 4.4.2
        16 October 2021 at 12:30 pm

        TBF even if it stayed at 47 thou that is 47 thou that may not have been vaxed, so can only be a good thing and well worth the cheesiness.

        Good idea Key.

        (I am working on the assumption that people realise I am pointing out the Key bit for a laugh as it looks like a good day vax wise and we could do with a laugh, given the circumstances. That and it will annoy people 🙂 )

    • woodart 4.5
      16 October 2021 at 1:13 pm

      was it keys idea? I very much doubt it. like the walkways to provide jobs, others thought of it but key was the headhoncho at the time, so took the credit. I doubt key has ever had an original idea, while in politics. all of his ideas came from focus groups.

      • chris T 4.5.1
        16 October 2021 at 1:25 pm

        Think all these ideas come from focus groups, and committees. MPs just get to suck the good PR from the ones that work they happened to be associated with.

        Mind you Key is just a (nz standards) mega rich dude, retired apart from boards and is hanging out, so might be an exception and could be his own one.

  5. chris T 5
    16 October 2021 at 8:50 am

    Just forget it and delete it. It seemed a harmless question at the time.

    If it causes moderators micro aggressions it aint worth the hassle.

    FFS. It didn't even question anything

    Edit: I have to put an edit in. If this is where we have got to in screening posta just because of Covid, it is f’ing ridiculous given the post

  6. Bearded Git 6
    16 October 2021 at 8:56 am

    Professor John Potter, epidemiologist and former Chief Science Adviser to the MOHNZ, who Kim Hill has just finished interviewing this morning on RNZ, says that NZ should continue to pursue Covid elimination, and that this is possible while we have it ringfenced in Auckland.

    In his opinion the alternative is much worse. Auckland needs to go back to L4 for the sake of all of NZ.

    • Jester 6.1
      16 October 2021 at 9:10 am

      I'm in Auckland and have had my two jabs, and after this weekends big vaxathon everyone that wants one will have had a first jab. Four weeks later they would have had both. So I'm happy to go to level 2 say 1st of December.

      • Bearded Git 6.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 9:24 am

        …meaning I am happy for Covid to spread across NZ for Xmas. Cheers mate.

        • Jester 6.1.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 10:42 am

          Yes and with everyone double jabbed the cases will be very mild with very few requiring hospitalisation. And we can go back to living more normal lives like the rest of the world.

      • dv 6.1.2
        16 October 2021 at 9:33 am

        Vaccination does not PREVENT spread, it reduces the effect of covid.

        • Jester 6.1.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 10:43 am

          Correct. The number of cases are virtually irrelevant now. We should only be counting hospitalisation or death numbers.

          • weka 6.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 10:50 am

            we should also be counting long covid and the impact of that cumulatively over the medium and long term. How many people in Invalid's benefit can NZ support? What's the impact on workplaces? What's the impact on families?

            Estimates of long covid vary from 10% of people with covid (MoH) to something like 30% (internationally).

            • Jester 6.1.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 10:57 am

              There was a good article the other day, (sorry don't have the link…in fact may have been an advert in NZ Herald) about the number of women who do not know yet that they have breast cancer, due to many of these normal tests being put off due to Covid.

              • weka …
                16 October 2021 at 12:31 pm

                and if we had covid in the community that would still be true, possibly worse, due to health system overload.

        • Cricklewood 6.1.2.2
          16 October 2021 at 1:41 pm

          Yeah, sadly in the face of Delta the current vaccines are very leaky.

          That will likely pose it's own set of problems.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.1.3
        16 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

        Need two weeks after the second one to have built immunity.

        • Jester 6.1.3.1
          16 October 2021 at 9:52 pm

          Yes agreed. So first jab today, second jab on or around 13th November, and two weeks later around 27th November you're at your most immune so level 2 from 1st December?

    • weka 6.2
      16 October 2021 at 10:23 am

      One thing we should be doing immediately and ongoing is addressing where L4 is so hard for some people.

      Is it mental health impacts? Teach resiliency skills. Is it being stuck home with the kids? Build more outside spaces and systems that take the pressure off.

      Is it not being able to socialise? Build better online platforms.

      Is it related to poverty? Raise benefits, bring in a GMI, cash payments to people really struggling.

      Is it the stress of such a big change to daily life? Redesign societal expectations to include down time as a health promoting practice, and put in the things that support that rather than just leaving people to sort it out.

      I cannot see how we can stop having periodic lockdowns given the vaccine is partial protection and wanes over time, and there will be new variants.

      • Sabine 6.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 10:33 am

        all of the above.

        anyone who is not on a government stipend of sorts, or who can work from home fulltime, does not yet understand the stress that comes with having a business in these times – and a lot of businesses are impacted from tourism to dentistry, the stress that comes with having an essential worker at home – if they get covid the household gets it, the stress of losing a job – retail, front of house, office cleaning, etc etc – often low paid and female orientated, the stress of living 11 to a 3 brdm home with several kids and adults, and then also the limited funds for say food, netflix – as the only option of entertainment, etc.

        And we are social animals by an large, so for people who don't mind mingling being alone or cramped into a small space with many but no way out can be a very distressing situation.

        And unless we are actually addressing these issues i don't think much is going to change. There will be rolling lockdowns, and people will break these lockdown rules.

        Maybe the govt should look at the rehabilitation of Marie Jeanne once more.

        • weka 6.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 10:43 am

          who is Marie Jeanne?

        • weka 6.2.1.2
          16 October 2021 at 10:48 am

          I'd put poverty, cultural issues and overcrowding high in the list to attend to. But yeah, special attention to business as well.

          What you say points also to the need for regionally and locally designed solutions. Obviously South Auckland hits the big three, and will have additional ones. Rural South Island is going to be different from there and from Chch and Dndn. Regional NI will be different from regional SI. Climate will make a big difference.

          Timeframes matter too. Hard to solve overcrowding in the short term, but not so hard to redesign outside public spaces quickly. Pair that with poverty relief and positive education on adapting.

          Would love to know the demographic and motivation break down of people attending the protests. That would tell us a lot too.

          • Sabine 6.2.1.2.1
            16 October 2021 at 11:49 am

            We need to understand that one can not lock up almost a third of the country for any lenght of time and not think that this will affect others.

            Many of us are simply there because we are stubborn and also because we can't just all give up and stand there and let our towns die. And make no mistakes, our towns are dying. Slowly but surely, and the most affected of this are women and their jobs, and yet we don't want to talk about that at all. No siree!

            And if you look at the protests, also look at the funerals – there was one in the south island a day before the tamaki protest with a hundred people in their ars and burn outs and what nots , and illegal gatherings in homes, the soft undermining of rules by people simply out and about waiting in line and going to the beach. I mean do you think you are much safer from Covid while standing in line at Supermarket then you are in an illegal protest? One mass gathering is permitted the other is not..

            It is easy for many to bash the Tamakis of this world as they are brash and out there, we don't seem to like however to apply the same standards to people that don't look like that particular crowd.

            And last, so what if we all get the jab, we drop all restrictions, and overload our healthcare sector because despite being injected we still get the disease, carry and spread it, and if unlucky enough become either a long hauler with various ailments or die.

            To me the lack of an open and honest discussion of what can and can not be permitted is one issue, the pretense that we can have mass gatherings and concerts because we are jabbed makes no sense. But that is just me.

            • weka 6.2.1.2.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 2:01 pm

              I think a lot of people are in for a shock next year when things don’t return to the normal they want.

              not sure if NZ will succumb to containment fatigue and be resigned to death and disability instead.

              funerals and supermarket shopping carry very different risks, I don’t see them as comparable. Happy agree there’s a problem with the vax concert thing, we will see how that works out.

              • Sabine …
                17 October 2021 at 10:03 am

                I came across this re England.

                funerals/supermarket shopping do carry different risks, but last year during the BLM demos, it seems that the risk was acceptable. Maybe we don't like the risk because we don't find it acceptable. So what is an acceptable risk to someone who lives in the ignored suburbs vs the posh and leafy suburbs of our elite?

                and fwiw, it is n
                ot only Auckland that suffers with the restrictions on Auckland, the whole south island is feeling the lack of people – most people of the north island live in Auckland, and it trickles down to the businesses also, but here we are pretending its only Auckland.

                We need to really start accepting reality.

                https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last

                • Sabine …
                  17 October 2021 at 10:12 am

                  South Island should be North Island.

                  even tho i would suspect a few places in the south island that also suffers from not having AKL'ers be able to move about.

                • weka …
                  17 October 2021 at 10:56 am

                  funerals/supermarket shopping do carry different risks, but last year during the BLM demos, it seems that the risk was acceptable. Maybe we don't like the risk because we don't find it acceptable. So what is an acceptable risk to someone who lives in the ignored suburbs vs the posh and leafy suburbs of our elite?

                  Not sure what your point is there. BLM protest in NZ was a bad idea and badly done, early in the pandemic before NZ knew better. And it was Level 2. I said at the time that I thought it was a bad move.

                  Everyone has their personal feelings about risk and how they assess it. Fortunately we have a reasonably competent government doing the risk assessments for the collective. Lots I disagree with them on in that, but there's still a big material difference (i.e. not based on feelings) between going to a funeral and going to the supermarket.

                  • Sabine …
                    17 October 2021 at 11:52 am

                    I guess the point i am trying to make is that what is acceptable might be different to some that can work from home full time with full pay, and those that are forced to stay home at wage subsidy level with full costs and those that get to go to work as essential workers with the full risk of catching covid and transmitting it to their households.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  17 October 2021 at 11:19 am

                  Thanks Sabine – that's a really interesting article.

                  “The current death rate is equivalent to over 40,000 people a year dying of Covid [in the UK]. This is not normal,” he said.

                  “The government has abandoned all pretence at public health measures to control Covid. It’s a national scandal, but one which seems to have largely slipped from view.”

                  Given NZ's spectacularly low per capita number of Covid-related deaths so far, I’d hope the team will have a low tolerance for increases in the 'death rate', and still be relatively accepting of Covid death mitigation measures.

                  • Andre …
                    17 October 2021 at 11:32 am

                    Since those deaths will be very highly concentrated among the vaccine refusers, and the lockdowns really really are severely fkn onerous, my acceptance of being locked down is dropping very rapidly.

                    I can assure you, I'm not the only one.

                    • Sabine …
                      17 October 2021 at 11:57 am

                      We are not vaccinating to prevent people from dying, we are vaccinating to prevent our underfunded, understaffed and under resourced medical complex from falling apart.

                      So what is going to happen when you have your 90% vaccination rate, but your hospitals are still not coping and any other medical procedures cancelled for lack of beds – even if not ICU beds?

                      This 'vaccination' does not give immunity, in fact you will need booster shots – Israel is currently at the second booser shot for those that got vaccianted earlier this year or late last year, how many booster shots a year do you think you can force down?

                      disclaimer, i am 'vaccinated', i wear my maks full time at work and when outside, i am still fully on contactless business and will be so for a long time coming.

                    • Andre …
                      17 October 2021 at 12:04 pm

                      @Sabine: I'm well aware of what's coming at our medical system, having a cousin and her husband, both hospital doctors, living through it in the US.

                      I think the best answer for that is setting up tents in the far corner of hospital parking lots as unvaccinated covid patient wards. Then when triaging becomes necessary, unvaccinated covid patients are first on the list to get triaged out to the tents.

                      That's the brutal reality of what's likely to be necessary to preserve some capacity to care for those that need help for other issues that weren't easily and safely preventable by a simple vaccine.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      17 October 2021 at 12:04 pm

                      @Andre (11:32 am): I can assure you, neither am I, "lockdowns really really are severely fkn onerous" notwithstanding. It boils down to personal thresholds, informed by experience, circumstance and ‘team spirit’.

                      Tbh, your brutal “best answer” (@12:04 pm) fills me with unease.

                    • Andre …
                      17 October 2021 at 12:09 pm

                      @DMK I'm not feeling much team spirit from non-Aucklanders gleefully advocating more level 4 for Auckland.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      17 October 2021 at 12:16 pm

                      non-Aucklanders gleefully advocating more level 4 for Auckland

                      "Gleefully"? Not much ‘Covid glee’ in this neck of the woods sad

        • Forget now 6.2.1.3
          16 October 2021 at 11:05 am

          This meta-analysis does seem to bear out your contention that some of us are more social animals than others; Sabine:

          Human mobility and daily SARS-CoV-2 infection rate were significantly associated with the change in major depressive disorder and anxiety disorder prevalence (table 1). After controlling for human mobility and daily SARS-CoV-2 infection rate, daily excess mortality rate was not associated with the change in prevalence for either major depressive disorder or anxiety disorders…

          For both disorders, females were affected more than males, and younger age groups were affected more than older age groups.

          https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02143-7/fulltext

          I find it fascinating that we as a species seem to be more afraid of infection than death itself. Though, as the researchers themselves note: This was likely due to high collinearity between the daily excess mortality rate and the other two COVID-19 impact variables.

          There seems to be a strong increase in both anxiety and depression from; decreased human mobility, to; increased infection rates (Depression; 0.9 to 18.1 B values respectively, with no Uncertainty Interval overlap at 95% range. Anxiety; 0.9 to 13.8 with no UI overlap). So opening up a region before elimination is achieved may be counterproductive if your intention is to reduce adverse mental health effects.

          • Treetop 6.2.1.3.1
            16 October 2021 at 12:49 pm

            We all need to have purpose in our lives. Once pressure hits a certain point the cause of it needs to be reduced.

      • Bearded Git 6.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 10:45 am

        Weka….I can see sense in all of this….I think we have to throw money at all of the issues associated with L4 lockdowns.

        I know that this is expensive and will not cure all the issues but it might well get NZ through Covid-free until a sterilizing vaccine emerges where Covid is not passed on at all by infected people.

        This is how the measles vaccine works, for example.

        Giving up and allowing Covid to spread through NZ when this goes not need to happen (see my reference to Professor John Potter above) doesn't make any sense.

        The government needs to go back to elimination NOW while it still can.

        • weka 6.2.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 2:03 pm

          I think we should be merging covid response with climate/eco response. Long term thinking, mitigation and adaptation, relocalise and focus on improving supports. If we get a sterile vaccine, that’s the icing on the cake. We shouldn’t rely on that.

      • Cricklewood 6.2.3
        16 October 2021 at 1:47 pm

        Its seems lockdowns will have some very long reaching and long term consequences. This study shows some pretty scary effects with regards the devolpment of babies, down to a lack of social interaction (mums groups as an example) at a critical time and stressed parents. This study covers what is a weathy middle class cohort.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-during-pandemic-have-lower-iqs-us-study-finds

        • weka 6.2.3.1
          16 October 2021 at 1:52 pm

          Thanks will take a look. How is this different from what a whole lot of people were experiencing before covid? Best we get on with helping us all. We can’t control covid, we can control what sort of society we build.

          • Cricklewood 6.2.3.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 2:20 pm

            The results are from a longitudinal study so show a clear difference.

            But for a start the study shows how vital socializationfor human development so we need to stay very community based.

            Also that putting parents under extreme stress leads to poor out comes for children but we already know that I think and we arnt really prepared to actually do much about it.

            Also read a different study that talked about the effect of mask wearing on development of children at school. The lack of social ques from expression is a big problem. Will try to find a link

            • weka 6.2.3.1.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

              No, I mean that before covid there were a whole lot of people raising their kids in less than optimal ways (poverty, disability etc). Now the middle classes are also affected. Instead of blaming covid response, we should be looking at how to help be ok no matter what the conditions. We can and should be adapting around this.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    16 October 2021 at 9:01 am

    Spinoff Ed: "Elimination was not only a successful health and economic strategy, it was something we all did together and mostly agreed upon… The policy was overwhelmingly popular across the political spectrum."

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/13-10-2021/some-big-clear-calls-are-needed-on-the-path-out-of-elimination/

    Unification of the nation as transitional phase, he's on about.

    It has become clear that there was no real plan for post-pandemic life, with a slow initial vaccine rollout, constrained MIQ capacity and lack of finished policy on vaccine mandates or passports particularly confounding.

    Confounded reality, getting in the way of mass perceptions.

    Beyond that, the end of nationwide elimination also exposes a large number of potential faultlines that its unifying halo concealed, each of which contains potential for division and tension, the likes of which have been common overseas

    Faultlines is a nice change from bogeymen, eh? Kinda more rarefied a notion, almost intellectual even.

    Yesterday morning the director general of health, Ashley Bloomfield, confidently opined that businesses could require their employees to be vaccinated based on their health and safety obligations. If they were unsure, he said they should consult a lawyer. This appears to be bad advice – no lawyer will give a definitive answer on this, because they’re waiting for definitive guidance from the government. In any case, asking hundreds of thousands of businesses to seek costly advice as individuals rather than providing definitive legal cover as the state seems a colossal waste of precious time and money.

    Market or state? Whatta conundrum. Thought that issue got settled back in the '80s. Better roll out Roger Douglas in his wheelchair to sort it. But maybe competing legal opinions is just what everyone needs? I know: ask Pipsqueak. He's sitting on the prospect of displacing the leader of the opposition. Oughta be gung ho to proclaim the new reality.

    • Gezza 7.1
      16 October 2021 at 9:20 am

      The state should legally mandate vaccinations, with listed exceptions, & residual vested authority for the Minister or DGH to approve special exemptions. Imo.

      But I’m open to other arguments?

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 9:55 am

        Likewise. Unsure if the North Korean option is sufficiently stealthy tho. Could get business leaders declaring a shift in stance: "Communism isn't as bad as we thought. State control blended with business leadership is the way to go. If China can do that, we can too." So I think Key was wrong to point to North Korea. China is the model. Call it a public/private partnership to get traction via framing…

        • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 12:08 pm

          Northern Territory has brought in vax or be fined $4000 or 6 mths prison if anyone works without vaccination.

          • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 12:24 pm

            Well, govts are supposed to ensure public safety. That duty is as traditional as they get – goes back centuries. Unsurprising any would not respond to public calls for moral responsibility to be enforced on the issue. I see the irony in the situation (as ought to be clear from my prior comments) but governance that actually works defeats irreverent commentary anytime…

    • Treetop 7.2
      16 October 2021 at 10:10 am

      Elimination is clear, containment is reducing the spread. Reducing the spread requires an elimination strategy.

      In Auckland is elimination no longer viable?

      • Dennis Frank 7.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 10:24 am

        Probably not but we ought to allow Bloomfield time to figure it out. If the trend of spread continues to escalate, we get a negative viability. If the control strategy works, the contagion numbers will trend back down. It's a matter of time.

      • Andre 7.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 11:10 am

        In Auckland is elimination no longer viable?

        Probably not without using Chinese and North Korea levels of compulsion. Y'know, welding peoples doors shut on their homes.

        It seems clear that covid is now in communities that aren't going to pay any attention to level 3 and level 4 rules. There's a lot more of those communities than just gangs and poor brown folks that are unfairly getting blamed right now. So going back into level 4 really isn't going to eliminate covid.

        There's also the factor that a strong majority of over 12s in Auckland are already double-vaxxed. Getting locked down again after having done all the individual actions one can possibly do, in order to protect those that refuse to do a really minimal action to protect themselves and the community, simply feels horribly unjust.

        There probably isn't a broad social license for another round of level 4, and even if there still was, it wouldn't last anywhere near long enough to actually achieve elimination against Delta.

        • Treetop 7.2.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 11:55 am

          Compliance is the issue and this requires personal responsibility. Non compliant people are the spoilers. Their impulse gets the better of them. There would be a common denominator in non compliance such as not coping with lockdown. Coping with high Covid cases is going to be far worse.

  8. Stephen D 8
    16 October 2021 at 9:15 am

    I knew Texas had is own schtick, but this!!

    From The Guardian

    "A Texas school district official has told teachers they must offer “opposing” perspectives to the Holocaust if they keep books about the genocide in their classroom libraries.

    Gina Peddy, the executive director of curriculum and instruction for Carroll independent school district in Southlake, made the statement while giving teacher training on which books classrooms can stock. The training came after the Carroll school board rebuked a fourth-grade teacher following complaints by parents about a book on anti-racism in her class.

    • What did Peddy say? “Make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives,” she can be heard saying on tape.
    • How did we get here? A new Texas law requires teachers who discuss “widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs” to examine the issues from diverse viewpoints without giving “deference to any one perspective”.
    • Texas governor Greg Abbott has said the law aims to abolish critical race theory in schools (an academic discipline not currently taught in US secondary schools)."
    • Gezza 8.1
      16 October 2021 at 9:23 am

      Obviously Texas doesn’t just have gun nuts. They have other nuts there as well. 😐

    • miravox 8.2
      16 October 2021 at 10:27 am

      “Make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives,” she can be heard saying on tape."

      Maybe she meant different perspectives on the way the holocaust was experienced e.g. a prison guard and a prisoner, a crematorium workers and a possessions sorter for example?

      yeah-nah – to believe that, I'd have to credit her (or the lot of them) with good faith, historical knowledge, nuance and empathy.

  9. francesca 9
    16 October 2021 at 9:22 am

    First of all

    I fully support covid vaccination .I am double vaxxed , from very early on , thus missing out on all the hoopla and spot prizes etc..I do not want to see our hospitals over run with acute covid cases, wear masks, sanitise, scan in religiously, comply with restrictions without bitching

    But..Why weren't all the tools in the toolbox being utilised ?Why not vaccine plus treatment .I want both available

    Here is Chris Leitch from Socal Credit, the only political party that advocated for Julian Assange's release in the last election campaign incidentally

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE2110/S00137/call-for-treatment-kits-to-be-issued-to-home-isolatees.htm

    There are many countries and states within countries who have done this with very good results.We are stuck with covid for the duration, and we can learn from other's successes in reducing severe illness and hospitalisation , and conversely where any pitfalls of home treatment may lie.

    An example

    This is John Campbell on the Uttar Pradesh.success for one Trigger alert. It includes the word ivermectin (as do the state provided home kits) Scroll on by if this provokes inflammation

  10. chris T 10
    16 October 2021 at 9:39 am

    Can I just post who here is going to watch the vaxathon and lose the other bits is that ok?

    • francesca 10.1
      16 October 2021 at 10:12 am

      Already said Nah

      Not a great fan of highly organised and curated fun

    • Shanreagh 10.2
      16 October 2021 at 10:25 am

      Don't know, probably have a look see now and again but my take is that if bumps the vaccine uptake then it is doing its job plus people do have fun with the mad challenges etc.

      So yes from me.

      • observer 10.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 11:35 am

        Exactly. It's not a "one hand … other hand" issue.

        If 90% is eye-rolling and 10% gets some more people vaccinated then it's +10, not 10 minus 90. There is no downside.

        (As long as we don't get celebs singing "Imagine" …)

        • Gezza 10.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 12:09 pm

          Bloody hell Paddy Gower just said he hoped his pronOUnciation of some Māori word or other was correct. Then he repeated the same mispronunciation as mispronounciation.

          The Education Department has a lot to answer for when even our newscasters like Gower are worried about their pronunciation of reo Māori when they are functionally illiterate in English! 😠

          That’s enough Vaxathon for me. 7 minutes.

        • Shanreagh 10.2.1.2
          16 October 2021 at 2:17 pm

          78327 so far.

          Then as Patricia says we need to do the second vaccine to give the best immunity.

    • Brigid 10.3
      16 October 2021 at 11:30 am

      Thankfully I don't have tv reception.

      The TV sits on a cabinet with a lovely picture of Mimiwhangata in front of it.

  11. Dennis Frank 11
    16 October 2021 at 10:06 am

    Re Bomber's rant "the continued death spiral of the National Party. I predict ACT will overtake National during the foolish Hate Speech debate next year." Sooner is likelier. Debating hate speech law ain't foolish, it's pragmatic. The issue has currency. Politicians must engage with prospective legislation.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2021/10/14/new-poll-labour-act-soar/

    Martyn's used his nifty diagnostic tool again (mod please adjust size to fit):

    • Gypsy 11.1
      16 October 2021 at 6:12 pm

      " The issue has currency.":

      I disagree. The legislation should be ditched and never see the light of day ever again.

    • Sabine 12.1
      16 October 2021 at 10:35 am

      Why thanks for not yet removing the status of 'people' from women.

      • francesca 12.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 11:14 am

        Note Sabine, that Ashley Bloomfield for instance, if he really wanted to be inclusive , could have said pregnant men and women.(To include transmen)

        But that would have been a step too far for most thinking people.Using the vague and butt saving people fudged the issue .

        Most people would have quietly assumed women,as so far nobody's managed to graft a working uterus on to a male body.Female bodies bear children

        • Sabine 12.1.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 11:25 am

          How about we say

          pregnant women and people?

          Just how many transman have actually given birth and will give birth? The very vast majority some – my guess – 97.5% of all children born are born to 'women', and the rest would then be born to a TIF – trans identified female.

          And i am sure the good Dr. knows that.

        • Forget now 12.1.1.2
          16 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

          Speaking of Erasure, there are also NonBinary, amongst other, people to consider. I personally wouldn't be averse to; Pregnant woman and others, though I do know people who would claim than was literally Othering them (and it's kind of hard to disagree with that). Plus that's without addressing the imminent advent of Biobags (or similar IVF linked external uterine biotech), that is going to be more than slightly controversial!

          Language formulations will continue to evolve apace, I don't even try to predict that nowadays. If an utterance can be understood by its intended audience, then it is effective; if it is ambiguous, then it should be changed. But sometimes different audiences need different language to engage them (eg Māori & Pākehā), though it is a weird experience to have to translate English into English (say; New York into Kiwi dialects, or even; cis into trans dialects). Respect for the intended audience seems to be the key to effective communication (though easier said than done).

    • miravox 12.2
      16 October 2021 at 12:12 pm

      I know I've said this before, but 'pregnant people' is the one language change I accept. It has nothing to do with trans (although language change benefits them), and everything to do with being a pregnant 15-year-old who felt that everything about being pregnant was for grown-ups.

      As a result I didn't 'find out' I was pregnant for 7 months, when I fainted at work, endangering me and my child (of course I guessed/knew, but had no idea what to do). These 'hidden' pregnancies are not unusual in young teens. Inclusive language may help pregnant kids seek care earlier.

      • weka 12.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 12:40 pm

        I'm not yet convinced. I've known a number of women who didn't know they were pregnant until a long way in, including a woman who didn't know until she went into labour. Some of those women didn't know because they were young and not in their bodies or didn't understand female reproductive anatomy and physiology. I think being disconnected from women's culture around sex and pregnancy is part of it too.

        Rather than removing women's language, I'm in favour of adding in. So if there's a problem for teens, then we need to do public health messaging, services and education specific to them. Likewise trans men and NB females.

        We can also go with all those things and just go with 'woman' meaning biological sex, and that includes young women (anyone able to get pregnant), and make sure that we actually provide services and culture for all of those women.

        • weka 12.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 12:43 pm

          I feel strongly about this for three reasons.

          1. health, including public health messaging, is best delivered culturally appropriately.
          2. women's rights are actually under threat and we have to retain our language in order to talk about that. The tweet about black people and slavery was a really good way of demonstrating this.
          3. women's culture is a positive, creative force that shouldn't be messed with. This applies to other areas, but particularly to giving birth, where all sorts of factors influence pregnancy, labour, lactation and post-natal experiences and outcomes.
          • miravox 12.2.1.1.1
            17 October 2021 at 11:17 am

            I'm not yet convinced. I've known a number of women who didn't know they were pregnant until a long way in

            Fair call. But this is my voice …

            Calling a young teen a woman is problematic to me. Both in terms of access to care and the ideas society has about what a women is, compared to a girl. What do you call a 14 year-old who is pregnant, a 12 y.o, an 11 y.o? It feels more than vaguely permissive for some males to redefine these girls as women just because they are capable of being impregnated. I’m not just talking about a teen boy partner here. To put it bluntly, as my partner says, ‘you’re giving paedophiles a green card’.

            Girls (like I was) aren’t pregnant because everything it hunky dory in their lives. I’m quite sure I’m not unique in how I felt about being alone, isolated and excluded. I think not knowing you’re pregnant is rather different to wilfully denying pregnancy – which is the space I was in. I can only imagine how it would have worked out if I hadn’t been taken to a GP after fainting at 7-months pregnant.

            women's culture [should be] a positive, creative force that shouldn't be messed with. This applies to other areas, but particularly to giving birth*

            It’s not so much a positive force when you’re young and invalidated. If it’s a positive force, why are girls excluded in the language, which flows on to them feeling excluded in practice?

            We can, and indeed should, take the public health steps you describe. But I fully believe language needs to be more inclusive to validate girls’ pregnancies and ensure, especially if they are unable to count on family support for information, they can reach out to health and maternity services.

            I don’t believe it’s a lack of knowledge about biological and reproductive functions that is the problem. My experience suggests a lack of care, attention and consideration from adults who should know better is a bigger problem. Maybe the public health messaging (and societal/economic structures) should be at the adult, rather than the adolescent level here. I’ll put my hand up here as well and say I should have known more and done better when my own daughter was a teen.

            So maybe we could use (the not so snappy phrasing) ‘pregnant women and girls’, as in Sabine’s comment below – and respect women’s rights and pregnant girl’s rights to be visible too.

            * as an aside, one of the most powerful examples of women’s positive, creative forces is this doco on the Fraser High teaching unit for teen mums.

            What a difference it would make we could gather at-risks kids in a warm, mentoring hug like this teen teaching unit does, before they’re in difficult situations that lead to hidden teen pregnancies.

      • Sabine 12.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 12:54 pm

        Because it is women and girls – irrespective of their own identification that are the ones falling pregnant. No transgirl will face a pregnancy, nor will a transwomen.

        This is the same as people with vaginas. Transwomen can have neo vaginas. Transmen can have vaginas. Intersex people can have a vagina. Women and girls have a vagina. But and unless you specify which person with a vagina you are talking too, chances are that Transmen will continue to die of a totally preventable cancer due to not being spoken too. Ditto with non binaries.

        Again, our sexed bodies – do not care one bit about our self identification. And if we don't care about appropriate language when speaking abut specific subjects than that can kill, and it has.

        We are not pregnant people. We are pregnant women, to whom all of the worlds population has been born , all every single human since the dawn of time.

        Maybe the issue really is that we actually don't speak to our young ones in terms that are understandable to them. And that involves clear language about what our bodies can and can not do.

        • francesca 12.2.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 1:09 pm

          Are transmen so divorced from their bodies they don't realise they have a cervix?I find that hard to believe

          • Sabine 12.2.2.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 1:57 pm

            Yes, some of them are so removed, and if you are 'trans identified' at a young age and only revered to as he/him why on earth would you think that much of that female biology applies to you? Many do get double radical masectomies and hysterectomies as soon as they can secure funding and are legally allowed to do so. But yes, recently there has been a few articles of transmen complaining that they don't get invites for pap smears- but only 'F' for female get invites, or that have died of cervical cancer because they refused to have pap smears. A young transman also was not diagnosed as pregnant but rather considered 'overweight' because the marker on 'gender/sex' was M.

            One can identify as one cares, but one must still accept the basic biological concept of the two sexes and their differences, and their importance in the reproductive cycle.

          • weka 12.2.2.1.2
            16 October 2021 at 2:04 pm

            There are women who don’t know what a cervix is.

            • francesca 12.2.2.1.2.1
              16 October 2021 at 4:30 pm

              Amazing.

              Sometimes I wonder if we're heading towards disembodiment , whereby eggs are harvested, inseminated , gene edited, "improved" and grown on in a laboratory.Certain breeding stock will be retained,for their eggs and sperm, but the rest will be sexless semi cyborgs, untroubled by the messy business of sex and human reproduction

            • Nic the NZer 12.2.2.1.2.2
              16 October 2021 at 4:35 pm

              Have they considered running for office with the UK Labour party?

              • weka …
                16 October 2021 at 5:01 pm

                Lol. Vastly different kind of not knowing 😈

              • Ad …
                16 October 2021 at 5:16 pm

                Georgina Beyer ran in NZ local politics for one term and in central politics for three terms. No drama. Had a lot of fun along the way too.

                • francesca …
                  16 October 2021 at 5:49 pm

                  Don't think she was in any doubt about whether she had a cervix or not

                  • Ad …
                    16 October 2021 at 6:01 pm

                    You'd have to ask her. She had plenty to say on patriarchy and more than most did something about it.

                    • francesca …
                      16 October 2021 at 6:34 pm

                      She was extremely frank and unapologetic about who she was. She was truly a great advocate for transexuals(her word) , and bloody witty, "I was born a stallion, became a gelding and ended up a mare(mayor)"

                      A strong person always willing to talk about her experience., and not trying to be anything but herself.

                      She converted my very conservative mother, who thought a great deal of her

                    • RedLogix …
                      16 October 2021 at 6:58 pm

                      Maybe it was more about her character than her category. yes

                    • Francesca []
                      16 October 2021 at 8:47 pm

                      Yes,that's true

                      She persuaded my mother of her genuineness,her warmth and charm,that such a person was above all a person and not the outlandish deviant my mother may have imagined

                • Nic the NZer …
                  16 October 2021 at 5:52 pm

                  Politicians have higher standards these days. Georgina Beyer seemed incapable of generating this kind of viral meme.

                  https://inews.co.uk/news/david-lammy-police-officer-labour-london-murder-crime-141751

                  • Ad …
                    16 October 2021 at 6:04 pm

                    Whatever the equivalent of a meme was in her three terms, Georgina Beyer got a good share of publicity. And generally avoided looking stupid.

                    I'll never forget when Paul Holmes went into a Carton bar and asked this crusty old guy on a barstool with a long grey beard:

                    "So do you really want a transsexual as Mayor?", and his reply:

                    "I do if it's Georgina Beyer."

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      16 October 2021 at 6:21 pm

                      Sorry, I keep forgetting that online there is always somebody around who doesn't realize there is a joke being made.

        • miravox 12.2.2.2
          16 October 2021 at 1:57 pm

          Sure, say pregnant women and girls (or pregnant females, but that feels a bit clinical). It wasn't until this discussion that I actually realised how, as a young teen, that more inclusive language would likely have made a difference to me.

    • Gypsy 12.3
      16 October 2021 at 6:15 pm

      Emily Oster is being disingenuous. And we're losing our collective minds with this bs.

  13. weka 13
    16 October 2021 at 10:42 am

    how we talk about covid and vaccination matters if we want an effective vaccination rate. Ridicule is not an effective communication strategy.

    https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1449127753907769346

    • francesca 13.1
      16 October 2021 at 11:02 am

      Caitlin is saying it hasn't been approved as a treatment for covid.In the european and anglophone spheres .Which we take the most notice of it seems .Possibly because their cultures more closely resemble ours.

      But it has most certainly been approved and used by health authorities in Mexico, Goa, Peru, Uttar Pradesh with good results.More controlled studies are needed, as causality can't be proved by epimediological findings.

      Chris Leitch includes this link in his press release (Scoop, Social Credit)

      https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin

      • francesca 13.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 11:09 am

        And ivermectin in the doses used by those countries (12mg)has a proven safety record for humans.

        When horse paste drowns out the quieter studies being undertaken right now, ivermectin is not getting a fair hearing .Messaging would be better to include, please be patient, we are undertaking studies, please do not resort to the available veterinary invermectin as they are calibrated for large mammals and will do you harm

        All the horse paste stuff predisposes people to distrust what may very well turn out to be a useful adjunct to vaccines

      • SPC 13.1.2
        16 October 2021 at 11:10 am

        Yale School of Medicine guy looks at Invermectin use – concludes we should be kept up to date while ongoing studies continue

      • Graeme 13.1.3
        16 October 2021 at 11:51 am

        Where Ivermectin will help a covid victim is by resolving any underlying parasite infestation they might have. In the countries / states you've listed this is a high likelihood. You could probably put the anti vax / oxycontin parts of US in the same category. Get rid of the worms and the individual is able to devote more resources to fighting the covid infection.

        This is how Ivermectin is used in agriculture, either prophylactically to promote greater general health and production, or specifically as a first line treatment to help an ailing animal.

        Direct antiviral effect in an otherwise healthy individual however is unlikely.

        • francesca 13.1.3.1
          16 October 2021 at 12:15 pm

          Since at least 2012 it's anti viral qualities have been recognised

          https://encyclopedia.pub/2895

          But that's an interesting theory! Could be a double whammer there!

          • Andre 13.1.3.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 4:57 pm

            Everything has antiviral properties if you put the concentration up high enough. Those ivermectin tests in petri dishes just demonstrate that principle yet again.

            The interesting question is whether a substance has sufficient antiviral properties at low enough concentrations to reduce harms caused by a virus without the substance directly causing undue harms to the organism we're trying to protect, ie us.

            Where ivermectin fails is this regard is that 1) because of the way ivermectin is absorbed, it's simply not possible to reach high enough concentrations in a human to actually achieve antiviral properties, and 2) if those extremely high concentrations necessary for antiviral properties were somehow actually achieved, ivermectin would cross the blood-brain barrier and be neurotoxic.

            These two facts are the likely explanation why well-designed and conducted clinical trials (eg Lopez-Medina in Colombia, and the TOGETHER trial conducted by McMaster University) have found ivermectin has negligible detected positive effect on actual covid patients. Whereas the trials that claim to have found beneficial effects are at best poorly conducted by highly biased practitioners producing unreliable and unrepeatable results, ranging to probable outright fraud from the likes of Elgazzar in Egypt and Carvallo in Argentina.

            In the end, what's needed are well-designed, well-conducted studies producing reliable repeatable results from a reproducible treatment protocol showing substantial improvements over placebo or best standard-of-care. Nobody has yet done that with ivermectin.

    • joe90 13.2
      16 October 2021 at 1:20 pm

      Best we don't ridicule the oppositional defiance of morons because we might exacerbate public distrust, eh.

      https://twitter.com/nzherald/status/1449163550866362368

      • weka 13.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 2:06 pm

        Explain to me how ridicule works strategically please.

        • Andre 13.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 5:02 pm

          It doesn't do anything for the nutters who are utterly unpersuadable in any case.

          For those on the fence, it might show how ridiculous the unpersuadable nutters actually are, leading the fence-sitters to decide they don't want to end up on the side with the ridiculous nutters.

          • weka 13.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 5:22 pm

            interesting theory. Do you have any evidence for that?

            • Andre 13.2.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2021 at 5:30 pm

              Only anecdotal, from some former fence-sitters that finally twigged to what a bunch of ridiculous %^&* loons the unpersuadable nutters really are.

        • joe90 13.2.1.2
          16 October 2021 at 5:23 pm

          You strategise to motivate reasonable people.

          These aren't reasonable people. They're bored, selfish nobodies living the same nobody lives the rest of us live, with the wherewithal and nothing better to do to than to travel, gather, and behave like narcissistic toddlers, stamping their feet and yodeling you're not the boss of me!

          And then they'll all go home, hop on their devices, log in, stroke themselves and declare that today, they showed da man who's boss!

          Because behaving like reasonable people and acting collectively as a community to solve a collective, community problem is what?….too adult, too boring, not satisfying?

        • Stuart Munro 13.2.1.3
          16 October 2021 at 8:53 pm

          It can shush people on forums quite effectively.

      • Ad 13.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 4:38 pm

        Arrests are more direct.

  14. newsense 14
    16 October 2021 at 10:46 am

    The democracy project seems to do a line in this. Children of ‘legal nullity’ concerned to teach the about tribal history and the like. They had an ode to the great Pacific historian Michael Bassett awhile back and now giving ACT publicity. The underlying takeaway goes back to the attitude of McCully taking about quizlings in the media: the media should be controlled by us constantly.

    What is the current right wing blog/etc. eco-system like? I guess these things are much more fractured than they used to be with FB groups and other social media.

    Are there dominant outlets post-00s Slater? Do particularly groups use particular sites?

  15. SPC 15
    16 October 2021 at 10:57 am

    An advisory panel of FDA unanimously recommended a booster dose of the Moderna coronavirus vaccine

    The evidence shows the immunity provided by this vaccine is greater than that of Pfizer.

    for those over 65 and for adults who are at high risk of severe illness because of underlying conditions or exposure on the job.

    Committee members reviewed data that showed Moderna’s two-shot regimen remains robustly protective at more than five months after vaccination: 93 percent effective in preventing all virus-related symptomatic illness and 98 percent protective against severe cases.

    To make the case for boosters, Jacqueline Miller, head of Moderna’s infectious-disease therapeutic area, presented data showing that six to eight months after vaccination, antibody levels dropped in vaccine recipients. A half-dose booster at least six months after initial vaccination restored those antibodies in a study of nearly 300 people.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/10/14/moderna-booster-shot-fda/?utm_campaign=wp_for_you&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_personalizedforyou&utm_content=readinghistory_Carolyn_Y._Johnson__position1

  16. SPC 16
    16 October 2021 at 11:40 am

    American workers are resigning from jobs because they are facing higher living costs (inflation) and have better options.

    And the GOP seems perturbed by people either walking away from hospitality and retail jobs because of poor pay and conditions or striking for better.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/10/15/great-resignation-better-economy/

    • Craig H 16.1
      16 October 2021 at 2:29 pm

      It's amazing how the message of "if you don't like the job, find a better one or go to college" has suddenly morphed into "entitled millennials"…

  17. Dennis Frank 17
    16 October 2021 at 12:18 pm

    Old-timer journo issues comprehensive critique: http://werewolf.co.nz/2021/10/gordon-campbell-on-the-epic-fails-of-kris-faafoi/

    Faafoi started well as a minister but seems unable to cope with judgment calls. Dunno if he just follows departmental advice due to fear of using his initiative or he just can't do appropriate decision-making. Seems a contender for reshuffle downwards.

    • Gypsy 17.1
      16 October 2021 at 6:23 pm

      That's a burn!

      Covid has protected poorer performers such as Faafoi in a way Twyford, Lees-Galloway, Curran etc didn't enjoy.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 17.2
      16 October 2021 at 6:37 pm

      Didnt he want to leave parliament at last election but was persuaded to be list only?

  18. Whispering Kate 18
    16 October 2021 at 1:17 pm

    Had a phone call today from a delightful young woman who explained she was phoning up folk to check in as to their wellbeing during the pandemic. Were we coping okay etc. She was earnest and sincere and we had a wee chat. Now I am a woman of older years with a few dings and dents picked up along the way and a cynic of some repute but I have to give her due she was a treat.

    We chatted about history and the lack of learning from it. The lack of grit and stoicism which is not so fashionable a trait these days. The wars that have a seen enemy and the wars that have an unseen enemy, for example this pesky virus. Finally the lass eased the bible into the conversation which I sort of knew was coming. A God botherer but a sweet one. We chatted on for a bit and then she said to me "what do you think God would be saying to us right now" and I just replied "I think she would be saying "I think its high time you lot got your shit together". She had no answer. We hung up and I wished her well.

    I think us older ones are coping about as good as we can be in the circumstances. Times like this its good to have some life history on board and strength of character to not be one of the me me generation. Just my thoughts.

    Hope we get a good result today in the vaccine department.

    • weka 18.1
      16 October 2021 at 2:07 pm

      Comment of the day. Good story 😎

    • RedLogix 18.2
      16 October 2021 at 9:22 pm

      Same here yes

    • Joe90 18.3
      16 October 2021 at 10:26 pm

      On the afternoon of the big 1987 Edgecumbe shake I rang mum in Ohope.

      All sorts of bother with the phones and finally someone answered, but not my mum. Of course I'd fat fingered it and rung the wrong elderly woman.

      Turned out the not my mum woman had no power, was on her own and distressed so I thought bugger it, one of the others will ring mum, and we spent the next couple of hours on the phone getting along like a house on fire. I met not my mum and recieved a Christmas card from her every year until she died.

      Mum was fine.

      • Patricia Bremner 18.3.1
        17 October 2021 at 1:25 am

        Brilliant story Joe90. I was in the school hall in Rotorua and all the glass belled and rippled. After a roll call outside we allowed the chn an early break. I rang my husband who was alarmed as he could not reach his parents in Whakatane 'till much later in the day later in the day. They were fine but friends who lived in Ohope on the hills lost half their house. It was not ever really repaired properly.

  19. observer 19
    16 October 2021 at 1:19 pm

    The Brian Tamaki crowd are driving round Auckland CBD now. Signs like "Covid response = Crime of the Century", "Say No to Tyranny", etc.

    Making enough noise to annoy everyone else, not exactly winning friends. I hope it doesn't turn nasty.

    • dv 19.1
      16 October 2021 at 1:34 pm

      Probably a super spreader event.

      And he probably should have alook at how many antivaxer have died from covid.

      Bang goes ‘I thought it was legal”

      • observer 19.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

        Tamaki has breached his bail conditions and must now be convicted.

        It was reasonable for police to stand back in a large crowd and not make him a martyr in a volatile situation, but now there is no excuse. Arrest him at his home.

      • Patricia Bremner 19.1.2
        16 October 2021 at 1:49 pm

        Vaxathon count 84 000 at 1.21pm. Will be more than 100 000 vaccinations.yessmiley Tamaki shamiki…

        • Shanreagh 19.1.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 2:24 pm

          That is great. They are aiming for 100,000. Let's hope we 'over-deliver' on that!

          • Patricia Bremner 19.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 3:06 pm

            Vaxathon, Nearly 95 000 including 12 500 Maori is going well as some stations close at 3pm ish others 9.30pm ish So great. Final count available 1pm tomorrow (Sun) and perhaps how many first vaxers out of the total.

        • Herodotus 19.1.2.2
          16 October 2021 at 3:37 pm

          So no excuses for Waikato and Northland to return to level 2 Tuesday 23:59, and Auckland to move up the steps 3.2 then 3.3 and level 2 in 3 weeks time, or will that be amber under the traffic light system.

    • McFlock 19.2
      16 October 2021 at 3:58 pm

      They really are optimistic about how the rest of the century is going to go.

  20. chris T 20
    16 October 2021 at 4:13 pm

    Something I am slightly worried about.

    I was talking to my sister-in law in England and she was saying every one was having to have booster doses (A third one) and she had just had hers. Apparently after 6 months there.

    We are starting to hit 6 months since our more vulnerable were rightfully put first in the queue, but (may just me me missing it) our govt isn't even mentioning booster doses.

    Any brainier people than me know which govt is right? As tend to trust the UK one a bit as an overseas opinion

    Edit: Sorry. Was only this morning I was talking to her, so may be a new thing

    • Patricia Bremner 20.1
      16 October 2021 at 4:27 pm

      Boosters have been discussed, as the virologists know efficacy wanes, but they have discovered our immune systems still operate at a lower level, and do limit severity Can't think where I saw that…. Stuff?

      • chris T 20.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 4:30 pm

        But if England has decided everyone should have one after 6 months because the first to wear off, surely the govt here should at least be being slightly more vocal about it an prepping if true?

        • Andre 20.1.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 5:14 pm

          As best as I can make out, the peak of the bell curve of info seems to be that yes, immunity does wane. But not enough to be of concern for the huge majority of fully-vaxxed, at least not within a six-month-ish timeframe. So for that huge majority, six or eight month boosters wouldn't be of value. Maybe later, though, as more data comes in.

          For the particularly vulnerable, boosters probably are of value sometime after the six-month timeframe. The particularly vulnerable might be around 15%ish of our population, and would only need one booster shot. So delivering boosters to those that would need them would be a much smaller operation than the current huge effort to double-vax our entire population.

          It would probably kinda slide right in with the likely effort to vax our 5 to 11s likely coming towards the end of this year. If it turns out to be needed.

      • chris T 20.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 6:57 pm

        I have literally no idea what your point is.

        I said my sister in law is saying in England they a trying to get people to get booster dhots after 6 moths and you post some link to nova vax

        • bwaghorn 20.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 7:31 pm

          You are that thick ha?

          • chris T 20.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 7:38 pm

            Apparently yes.

            Maybe you could write an actual post explaining your point rather than just a random link and some vague 6 word post that means jack shit to me

      • chris T 20.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 7:39 pm

        I mean what the fuck does this mean?

        "Keep up with the game concern guy"

        • bwaghorn 20.2.2.1
          16 October 2021 at 7:47 pm

          You claimed this government isnt doing anything about boosters , the link shows otherwise,

          But you concern is noted

  21. weka 21
    16 October 2021 at 5:01 pm

    Anyone know if there is a specific charge for people who organise collective breaches of covid orders?

    https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1449207914762145792

    • chris T 21.1
      16 October 2021 at 6:54 pm

      Doubt they will charge them. Maybe Tanaki but it would be pointless

      • observer 21.1.1
        16 October 2021 at 9:19 pm

        People are routinely charged for breaching bail conditions. Tamaki will be no different.

        His bail conditions included that he "not organise or attend any protests in breach of any Covid-19 level requirement", and "not use the internet for the purpose of organising, attending or encouraging non-compliance with the Covid-19 Public Health Response Act 2020".

        So he will be charged and then it's up to his lawyers to persuade the judge that what happened didn't actually happen.

    • miravox 21.2
      16 October 2021 at 7:43 pm

      The organisers, the freedom and rights coalition have a very carefully worded FAQ section on their website (and I imagine, on their many facebook sites – for each town the protests are to take place) about abiding by covid rules and behaviours on the so-called family picnics. Additionally stating"'Each family is however personally responsible for whether they abide or not."

      They also tell people what signs to carry.

      The site are easy to find, I'm not inclined to link to this bunch of shites.

      I hope it's not enough to avoid prosecution.

      they claim 30,000 across the country turned up, 6,000 in Auckland, cf Newshub's 2,000 – either way, clearly breaching covid restrictions.

      • weka 21.2.1
        16 October 2021 at 7:56 pm

        ok, I'm confused. If people did respect the family picnic rules, is there a problem?

        • miravox 21.2.1.1
          16 October 2021 at 8:13 pm

          The total number of people at one event would be a problem. I guess the legal arguments will be important.

          • chris T 21.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2021 at 8:50 pm

            Seems a bit waste of money given the distances kept and frankly what difference does it make now value

      • Graeme 21.2.2
        16 October 2021 at 10:20 pm

        My partner saw one setting up beside the Events Centre in Frankton today with a big 'toot for freedom' banner, said no one was tooting but lots of glares, raised middle fingers and downward thumbs form passing drivers. I went past the spot half an hour later and they had gone.

  22. Joe90 22
    16 October 2021 at 11:02 pm

    Rather alarming piece about the price Brits are seemingly willing to pay for the freedom day claptrap being sold by the Tories.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last?

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