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Open mike 16/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 16th, 2021 - 226 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

226 comments on “Open mike 16/11/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    To see what Mick Jagger & Seamus LittleBlack Shag have in common, watch:

  2. bwaghorn 2

    Dumb question of the day!!

    When the reserve bank raises interest rates,and banks lift theres to maintain their margin , were does that increase in paid by borrowers end up??

    Do banks pay the amount that is the OCR to the reserve bank?

    • Cricklewood 2.1

      Well I know where the increase ends up…

      Australia.

    • Nic the NZer 2.2

      This isn't quite the right description though its close. The OCR is the interest rate paid by banks and financial institutions when they borrow funds from the reserve bank. The facility to do this means its the maximum interest rate that other financial institutions will be able to charge when lending to each other. This is typically the 90 day bills rate.

      https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key-graphs/key-graph-90-day-rate

      So its just when there is a banking market wide short fall in these settlement resources that banks need to borrow from the reserve bank for.

      Mostly interest payments will be income for financial institutions and will not be on-paid to the RBNZ, though a small amount of lending will have been cleared using their facilities. Some of this will end up paying interest to deposit/savings accounts and will ultimately be paid to bank staff, depositors, bank investors and the Australian parent companies.

      Also any profit made by the RBNZ folds into the government balance sheet.

      • Tricledrown 2.2.1

        Don't forget taxes on Bank Profit which goes to the Australian govt which NZ gets nothing except 501s

      • bwaghorn 2.2.2

        Thanks, so the banks win from an ocr raise.

        Maybe we need to go for I believe it was TOPs policy of using kiwisaver to take cash out of circulation.

    • Gezza 2.3

      bwaghorn, genuinely interested in your answer to this question, so I hope you aren't gonna overreact & have a go at me for being a spelling or grammar nazi or whatever.

      I pretty well always read your contributions here. How does someone as bright & interested in political & other topical matters as you show yourself to be here end up having such poor knowledge of English grammar & spelling as you just displayed above?

      It's not a problem to understand what you mean when you use theres instead of theirs and were instead of where, but some frequent misspellings can sometimes lead to nonsensical sentences.

      I presume English is your mother tongue; the language you were educated in. Does it bother you getting your English wrong, and if not, why doesn't bother you?

      • bwaghorn 2.3.1

        No offense taken, I actually went to change today's there for thier but my edit function wasn't working, that said I have never had an eye for detail,and forget to self edit in my rush to get thoughts out.

        My brain is always racing off to the next thought, plan,or daydream, drove my teachers crazy.

        Btw if you're really bored 1 day troll back to when I first turned up at the standard, 2013 ish I believe, its improved alot.

        Ooh and also this is about the only writing I do so lack of use no doubt plays a part

        • Gezza 2.3.1.1

          Thanks, b. Yep, I can understand & identify with that.

          I had a 34 year public service career involving mostly writing, targeting audiences of varying levels of reading comprehension: Departmental correspondence, Ministerial replies, Policy papers, Operational Policy Manuals, Forms, Leaflets, Operational User Specs for systems work, Investigations & Review Reports, Staff Training guidelines, (Appeal Authority decisions & implications for operational staff) just some of my roles.

          I was a ruthless editor in charge of a Publications & Manuals section for some years.

          I retired early in 2007 to take care of my late wife, & after she died I decided to live frugally, enjoy my retirement & streamside home, & not to re-enter the Rat Race when they came looking to offer me contract work.

          These days I’m sometimes appalled at the slippage in my own standards of proof-reading – here, for example, I’m possibly among the worst for hitting Submit Comment before doing a careful final check for errors.

          I’m smiling as I write this. Your errors reminded me of “Todd”. A young Christian I was having an online debate with on a message board some years back whose spelling was atrociously bad. He tended to spell finetikly, and/or based on what he thought looked about right.

          I queried his spelling occasionally because I had no idea what he meant, but he didn’t like his spelling being corrected. In a comment in reply to one of mine about how he prayed – & what denomination he was – he told me he believed that Christians should all be allowed to whorshop in whatever way felt right for them. 😀

    • Gezza 2.4

      (Sorry Mod. Mucked up my email addy. A reply to bwaghorn’s parked in Moderation.)

  3. Adrian Thornton 3

    An open question to all The Standard Russiagaters…you know who you are….

    OK so now that the Russiagate conspiracy has completely and very publicly fallen apart, with the only people now left defending it, being only the totally deluded or are in so deep there is no turning back like the queen of this conspiracy Rachel Maddow …I am left wondering if any admission of being wrong from the the usual suspects on this forum will be coming forth (let alone an apology)…..who, let's not forget, over the term of Trump accused myself and others of all sorts of things, being useful idiots, Putin puppets, Trump defenders etc etc…

    Finally, I only hope that as a result of hopefully meditating on their own position during this obvious fraud, more "lefties' will be a little more circumspect in future…oh no wait..China.

    The Rise and Fall of the ‘Steele Dossier’
    A case study in mass hysteria and media credulity.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-russiagate-steele-dossier/

    The real ‘collusion’ was the creation of ‘RussiaGate’ out of absolutely nothing
    https://nypost.com/2021/11/04/the-real-collusion-was-the-creation-of-russiagate-out-of-absolutely-nothing/

    The crumbling of the Steele dossier
    https://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-the-crumbling-of-the-steele-dossier-2478499/

    Arrest of Steele dossier source forces some news outlets to reexamine their coverage
    https://www.npr.org/2021/11/12/1055030223/the-fbi-arrests-a-key-contributor-to-efforts-trying-to-link-trump-with-russia

    On Russiagate, Durham Indicts the Press Too
    His latest arrives just in time to expose a pathetic ABC News ‘special’ report on Christopher Steele.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/on-russiagate-durham-indicts-the-press-too-hoax-media-indictment-11636141080

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      Add to that Hunter Biden and deafening silence around him (his "art" career, bagman for his father, losing multiple laptops) and you really start to wonder what the hell is going on

      • Pete 3.1.1

        You don't have to wonder about what goes on over there, just make something up which makes you happy. If you're an ex-mayor of New York you could even have millions go along with your created reality.

        • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1

          The issue, to me, isn't left v right its the msm deciding what we think.

          Compare Trumps presidency to Bidens and the medias portrayal of both

          • Pete 3.1.1.1.1

            The msm deciding what we think? You mean all media deciding what we think? You mean us deciding what we think?

            Did the 'msm' (whatever that is) tell you to think that Hunter Biden was a bagman for his father?

            • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1.1.1

              'The msm deciding what we think?'

              Yeah mostly.

              Trump is bad is the narrative, everything from the msm is geared towards this and if you disagree you must be a *insert racist, white nationalist, white power, far right etc here*

              Sky News Australia and Fox News are dismissed.

              Remember Brett Kavanaugh, remember the frenzy whipped up against him?

              https://time.com/5415027/christine-blasey-ford-testimony/

              Hell just google Christine Blasey Ford and any combination of New York Times or Washington Post to see how believed she was

              Now compare that to Tara Reade, who said where it happened, when it happened and told people about it at the time

              I'm not saying whether it happened or not but how it was covered by a very bias media

              Remember when Trump was called xenophobic and racist for banning flights

              Remember when Democrat politicians told people to visit Chinatown, to continue to use the subway in opposition to Trump

              Remember when Trump was derided for saying there'd be a vaccine

              Remember when Democrat politicians said they wouldn't use the vaccine (until Biden won then it was ok)

              Remember when CNN had death totals under Trump but stopped under Biden

              All this was pushed by the msm, virtually no pushback

              Can anyone really say Biden is doing a better job than Trump

              There were plenty of calls for Trump to be impeached over his mental health, where are the calls for Biden

              The narrative you hear, the main narrative, is Trump bad

              Is the USA better off now under Biden or was it better off under Trump

              Is the world safer under Biden or was it safer under Trump

              So yes when the message is Trump bad and its pushed by the vast majority of msm outlets then yes they are trying to make you think what they want you to think

              Hell I could go Joe Rogan v Sanjay Gupta, De Death Anthony Fauci and the gain of function research which is or isn't but if you question him you question science, mostly peaceful riots, Kyle Rittenhouse portrayed as white supremacist, BLM movement, Nick Sandmann and the Covington schoolkids

              • Pete

                No, the media doesn't tell us what to think. We process and judge.

                If Fox, as part of the MSM, is your main or only source, the narrative is 'Trump is bad'?

                Pushed by the vast majority? As in "majority rules"? As in if the vast majority thinks that it must be right? You know, like the vast majority think men reached the moon.

              • RedLogix

                I think the issues you list above are for the most part valid points.

                Trump was of course a piss poor President – his policymaking and Administration was often chaotic and incoherent. More than a few of his policies such as his boosterism for the coal industry were plain stupid – there were plenty of legitimate reasons to oppose Trump and call out his more egregious lies and gibbering nonsense.

                Because the very manner of Trump generated such a visceral reaction in many progressives, triggering them into an irrational over-reaction. they finished up matching or exceeding Trumps own faults – point for point.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  See I'd suggest that historic low unemployment rates, industries coming back to the USA, carbon emission falling, greater stability in the Middle East, North Korea and China aggression for the most part curtailed suggest Trump either a. knew what he was doing or b. let others who knew what they were doing get on with it

                  Also was there any other president that had to put up with a media and opposition party trying to smear and impeach for years all based on a document that was known to lies yet was still pushed as if it were true

                  How much of your view on Trump was based on a lie?

                  How can someone rig an election and win when not in government (with no support from Democrats and Republicans) yet somehow not rig the election when in power?

              • Tricledro

                The Worst side of Trump is he created a massive division in the US.The old divide and conquer .

                Those wounds have been amplified by the likes of Tucker Carlson who admits he lies alot so he can push his agenda.

                Trump / Carlson pushing the anti vax agenda yet both are double jabbed.The great replacement theory.White people being replaced with other people with darker skin pigment.Predatory sexual behaviour excused ,avoiding prosecution by time limits in prosecution unlike NZ.

                Voting rights under attack by Trump supporting GOP.

                Biden is just the otherwise of the same coin.

                The US being so divided is playing into other super powers hands weakening the US economy which has flow on effects embolening the likes of China and Russia.While also encouraging other despots like Bolsinaro who is doing irreparable damage to the biggest land based oxygen generator and carbon sink on the planet.

                Trump is facing many many legal challenges but the thing that will sink him is tax avoidence and money laundering.

                • weka

                  please fix user name.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  'The Worst side of Trump Obama is he created a massive division in the US.The old divide and conquer .'

                  – Fixed for you

                  'Those wounds have been amplified by the likes of Tucker Carlson who admits he lies alot so he can push his agenda.'

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN_controversies

                  'Trump / Carlson pushing the anti vax agenda yet both are double jabbed.'

                  – link please

                  'The great replacement theory.White people being replaced with other people with darker skin pigment.'

                  – I have no idea what you're talking about

                  'Predatory sexual behaviour excused ,avoiding prosecution by time limits in prosecution unlike NZ.'

                  – Biden?

                  'Voting rights under attack by Trump supporting GOP'

                  – Having voter ID is a bad thing?

                  'Biden is just the otherwise of the same coin.'

                  – Bidens worse because he's, probably, senile

                  'The US being so divided is playing into other super powers hands weakening the US economy which has flow on effects embolening the likes of China and Russia.While also encouraging other despots like Bolsinaro who is doing irreparable damage to the biggest land based oxygen generator and carbon sink on the planet.'

                  – Thanks Biden

                  'Trump is facing many many legal challenges but the thing that will sink him is tax avoidence and money laundering.'

                  – Just like Russiagate, Stormy Daniels etc etc

                  • Tricledrown

                    Taxes are different to public prosecutions Trumps long history of bankruptcies and dodgy deals is catching up with him.

                    Russia gate isn't finished yet,2 out of 24 sexual assault cases have been dropped but their are still 22 cases being prosecuted.

                    Then look at how many of Trumps aids have criminal charges proven with serious jail terms.

                    No other president has had most of his close aids convicted,Convicted.

                    Only to be pardoned.Still many of Trump aids are being prosecuted as we speak.

                    Shifting the blame to existing presidents or past presidents is mansplaining for a man who was exposed mansplaining he was grabbing their pussies and you know what they let me do it.She wasn't my type.

                    The statute of limitations saved his bacon so far.

                    Then looking at Trumps connection with the Mafia in his bankrupt casinos ,Trumps wealth is much lower than he claims most of his wealth was handed down which he lost in poor deals,So he jumped into bed with the Mafia he is the Tony Soprano of property investment being investigated and prosecuted for tax dodging and money laundering taking money from political donations for personal use which he has pleaded guilty and had to pay fines. and his fluffers are only to happy to follow him blindly spreading his lies.

                  • joe90

                    created a massive division in the US.

                    Some political figures are more polarizing than others, of course, so in the recent 2018 Presidents and Executive Politics Presidential Greatness survey, we wanted to gauge not just who dozens of experts felt were the greatest (and least great) presidents, but also which presidents they felt were the most polarizing.

                    In addition to coming in last in the overall greatness rating, President Trump was ranked by our surveyed experts as the most polarizing of all presidents, as we show in Figure 1. The Trump White House pursued fractious policies in seeking to implement a travel ban, dismantling Obamacare, withdrawing from a global climate pact, and agreeing to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. After Trump, the presidents perceived as the most polarizing include Abraham Lincoln, who ranks at the very top of the overall greatness scale, and James Buchanan, who joins Trump at the very bottom.

                    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/03/20/comparing-trump-to-the-greatest-and-the-most-polarizing-presidents-in-u-s-history/

                    'Those wounds have been amplified by the likes of Tucker Carlson who admits he lies alot so he can push his agenda.'

                    Carlson has, in fact, lied on his show — on everything from windmills to being spied on by the NSA. Last year, Fox News actually won a defamation lawsuit — with Carlson as the defendant — by arguing that “reasonable viewers” will know he’s not “stating actual facts” on his show.

                    https://www.thewrap.com/tucker-carlson-lie/

                    Now comes the claim that you can't expect to literally believe the words that come out of Carlson's mouth. And that assertion is not coming from Carlson's critics. It's being made by a federal judge in the Southern District of New York and by Fox News's own lawyers in defending Carlson against accusations of slander. It worked, by the way.

                    Just read U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil's opinion, leaning heavily on the arguments of Fox's lawyers: The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' "

                    https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

                    Trump / Carlson pushing the anti vax agenda yet both are double jabbed.'

                    Whether or not he's vaccinated or is mandated to be is between him and his employer. Indulging the anti-vaxx section of his audience is a public health hazard.

                    The lady doth protest too much, methinks: Fox News host Tucker Carlson spent a portion of his show on Monday night reassuring his audience of gullible anti-vaxxers that he is “not pretending at all” to agree with them.

                    On the Monday edition of his show, the Daily Beast reported, Carlson urged viewers to take him at his word that he hasn’t been spreading lies, hoaxes, and wildly incorrect interpretations of epidemiological data on vaccines for “prestige or ratings.” Carlson added that he is “real” in his opposition to the employer vaccine mandates rolled out by Joe Biden’s administration.

                    https://gizmodo.com/tucker-to-antivax-rubes-no-really-im-one-of-you-1847848747

                    Fox News host Tucker Carlson continued to mislead his viewers about COVID-19 on Wednesday, telling them that vaccinated and unvaccinated people spread the coronavirus in the same way.

                    “The vaccinated spread COVID just like the unvaccinated. There’s no difference actually,” Carlson said during a rant about Seattle public employees who quit or were fired from their jobs for failing to meet the Oct. 18 deadline to be fully vaccinated. “Look at the science.”

                    https://money.yahoo.com/tucker-carlson-makes-totally-untrue-034841033.html

                    – I have no idea what you're talking about

                    One of the most visible Great Replacement propagandists is Fox media personality Tucker Carlson, who claimed during a September 22 broadcast of “Tucker Carlson Tonight” that the point of Biden’s immigration policy is “to reduce the political power of the people whose ancestors live here, and dramatically increase the proportion of Americans newly-arrived from the third world.” He went on to refer to the policy as “The Great Replacement” which he explained is “the replacement of legacy Americans with more obedient people from far-away countries.”

                    https://www.adl.org/blog/new-surge-in-support-for-replacement-theory-rhetoric

                    'Predatory sexual behaviour excused ,avoiding prosecution by time limits in prosecution unlike NZ.'

                    'Voting rights under attack by Trump supporting GOP'

                    Since January, Republican lawmakers in forty-eight states have introduced nearly four hundred restrictive voting bills. What distinguishes these efforts is that they target not only voters but also poll workers and election officials. The Texas bill makes it a criminal offense for an election official to obstruct the view of poll watchers, who are typically partisan volunteers, and grants those observers the right to record videos of voters at polling places. In Iowa, officials could be fined ten thousand dollars for “technical infractions,” such as failing to sufficiently purge voters from the rolls. In Florida, workers who leave drop boxes unattended, however briefly, can be fined twenty-five thousand dollars. In Georgia, poll watchers can challenge the eligibility of an unlimited number of voters.

                    Even before the pandemic, sixty-five per cent of jurisdictions in the country were having trouble attracting poll workers. The threat of sizable fines and criminal prosecution will only make that task harder, and that’s clearly the point. Polls can’t operate without poll workers. Voters can’t vote if there are no polling places, or if they can’t stand in hours-long lines at the sites that are open—not to mention if other means of casting a ballot, such as by mail, have been outlawed.

                    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/06/14/the-republicans-wild-assault-on-voting-rights-in-texas-and-arizona

                    A Guardian analysis based on that report confirms what many activists have suspected: the places where the black and Latinx population is growing by the largest numbers have experienced the vast majority of the state’s poll site closures.

                    The analysis finds that the 50 counties that gained the most Black and Latinx residents between 2012 and 2018 closed 542 polling sites, compared to just 34 closures in the 50 counties that have gained the fewest black and Latinx residents. This is despite the fact that the population in the former group of counties has risen by 2.5 million people, whereas in the latter category the total population has fallen by over 13,000.

                    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/02/texas-polling-sites-closures-voting

                    'Biden is just the otherwise of the same coin.'

                    – Bidens worse because he's, probably, senile

                    You're a screw and a gerontologist?

                    – Thanks Biden

                    Probably not.

                    Climate regulations are a frequent target

                    The Trump administration has been particularly focused on rolling back actions intended to deal with climate change. On June 1, 2017, President Trump promised to withdraw from the Paris Agreement, an agreement among 195 nations to cut their greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. The United States stands alone among major emitters in the world in its efforts to repudiate the agreement and cannot officially withdraw until the day after the 2020 election in November.

                    https://www.brookings.edu/policy2020/votervital/what-is-the-trump-administrations-track-record-on-the-environment/

                    Key takeaways:

                    • Long before the COVID-19 pandemic the Trump administration was squandering the pockets of strength in the American economy it had inherited.
                    • Broad-based prosperity requires strength on the supply, demand, and distributive sides of the economy, and Trump administration policies were either weak or outright damaging on these fronts.
                      • Demand: Most of the Trump tax cuts went to already-rich corporations and households, who tend to save rather than spend most of any extra dollar they’re given.
                      • Supply: Business investment plummeted under the Trump administration, despite their lavishing tax cuts on corporate business.
                      • Distribution: The Trump administration undercut labor standards and rules that can buttress workers’ bargaining power.

                    https://www.epi.org/blog/the-trump-administration-was-ruining-the-pre-covid-19-19-economy-too-just-more-slowly/

                    'Trump is facing many many legal challenges but the thing that will sink him is tax avoidence and money laundering.'

                    Two hopes in hell – Weisselberg's loyalty and running down the clock.

                    The judge hearing the tax fraud case against former President Donald Trump's family business and its longtime chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg, in New York City has set a schedule with a potential court trial starting in late August or early September 2022, just months before the midterm elections.

                    That timing, as well as a potential conviction against his family business, could cast a pall over any efforts by Trump to drum up support for Republican candidates. And with multiple investigations still underway, the legal cloud hanging over Trump's world may be getting larger, lawyers on Weisselberg's defense team suggested during a court hearing on Monday.

                    "We have strong reason to believe there could be other indictments coming," said Bryan Skarlatos, one of Weisselberg's attorneys.

                    https://www.npr.org/2021/09/20/1037035597/trump-organization-investigation-charges-cfo-allen-weisselberg

              • Tricledrown

                Remember when Trump said Covid didn't exist then caught it.

                Trump the White supremacist super hero.

                Now we have all the Trump supporting states with the highest Covid cases and Deaths.

                • Tricledrown

                  Mysogynist super hero as well

                  • Shanreagh

                    PR I am not sure why you think there is 'something' in following all these so-called 'clues' as if they are new.

                    The links to Donald Trump, his denial of the fact of Covid, his minimising of Covid (Wuflu), the rise of Qanon on 4chan and 8chan with Trump as warrior, have been all through media for several years.

                    Fellow travellers when I came across this scourge, around the time as anti Islam in the UK, of the 15/3 in Chch were Stefan Molyneux, Tommy Robinson, Katie Hopkins, Lauren Southern, Info wars, Proud Boys.

                    Since then there has been the Paris Accord to encourage the taking down of anti propaganda, US election, the storming of the Capitol on 6/1/21. After a laggardly start Farcebook etc have taken down misleading items, redacting parts and posting warnings about others. Despite this, 'whack a mole' orgs have sprung up such as Telegraph (used for planning the Capitol schmozzle)

                    There has been the rise of fact checker organisations during the time of Trump.

                    This is/was an invaluable site for me all through was this searchable organisaton where you can ascertain bias in media outlets

                    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/search/

                    I used the website to check what kind of rating Fox News has

                    "These media sources are moderate to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

                    • We rate Fox News strongly Right-Biased due to editorial positions and story selection that favors the right. We also rate them Mixed factually and borderline Questionable based on poor sourcing and the spreading of conspiracy theories.

                    I suggest that some of the queries you want links on can be better handled by doing some research. Trump for instance was boo-ed at a supporters meeting when he suggested vaccinating. He is widely believed to have been vaccinated before he left the White House. I am not sure about Tucker Carlson but others have pointed out (on this site)

                    https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

                    that some rabid anti vaxxers actually work for organisations that have mandated vaccinations in their staff.

                    https://www.psypost.org/2021/06/study-indicates-donald-trump-was-the-main-anti-vaccination-influencer-on-twitter-in-2020-61032

                    https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

                    Again when looking at the rise of di- & mis-information on the vaccines I came across some of the same players as the anti Islam followers, pro Trump league. I usually do a check through other articles on any sites and these, with the site and people above throw up some scary and nutty 'moonbat convergence' theorists as a poster here says.

                    Unfortunately/fortunately I now have a highly developed intuition spider creepy feeling that can usually tell a moon bat site even without deep searching. I support doing one's own research, in the best possible way, and perhaps coming back with specific queries or views rather than trying to review a whole sad or whacky period of US political history.

                    One of the posters here, Andre, I think had a massive list of Trump nicknames. To be honest I would rather have a re run of some of these than do a broad generalist approach to 'revising' Trump's regime such as you seem to be doing.

                    Trump though, and son Eric are busy doing just that.

                    https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-trump-and-son-whitewash-vaccine-willingness-before-biden/

                    US politics is both fascinating and predictable. 'Democrats gotta Democrat and Republicans gotta Republican' by and large.

                    History will treat Trump harshly, is my belief, mostly for the OMG moments such as nepotism, his seeming lack of education and by golly gee whizz moments dressed up as alternatives…….bleach, Ivermectin, misogyny, Russiagate etc.

                    Dr Fauci, a public official, maintained a principled stand all the way through, it cannot have been easy. There were a couple in the US Defence Forces who also did…..ie pushed to the brink but maintained a public service stand. Some mistakes were made because Trump did not appear to know/respect boundaries

                    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-navy-secretary-debacle-about-more-modly-s-mistakes-ncna1180806

                    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/07/15/top-generals-planned-to-resign-en-masse-if-trump-refused-to-leave-office-reports/

                    I think you are a Corrections Officer. Years ago I did a Dip Crim and had much to do with COs while we were studying, including visiting prisons in our holidays!

                    One CO said that usually prisons are a microcosm of our lives and people outside. The ones who caused trouble to the smooth running inside were the 'bad/mad and the mad/bad', crude analysis. There were, usually, neither the staff nor the facilities to deal with these offenders, many of whom did not fall into the standard 'mad' definition used in the Justice system where offenders could be syphoned off into more appropriate places for treatment.. His point was that as prisons are reflection of lives outside so a population inside with these outliers can be difficult to manage. These are the same outliers that cause trouble in the world outside prisons.

                    My point is that my belief is that it is this kind of outlier analysis may better explain the effect of Trump's presidency than looking at him in comparison with previous Republican Presidents let alone previous Democrat Presidents. The difficulties and analyses of dealing with people, in this case a US President who are outliers will become more known as the years go by.

                    Also no doubt the man did some good, we mostly all do, possibly despite his views and not because of them.

                    • Shanreagh

                      Sorry Telegram not Telegraph. It is being used, apparently by the Groundswell protestors as some thing of their's has been taken down from ??????

                  • Macro

                    'Remember when Trump said Covid didn't exist'

                    Well he didn't exactly say that – but he lied about the seriousness of Covid multiple times – even when he had been told of it seriousness.

                    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/11/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/

              • Gypsy

                "Can anyone really say Biden is doing a better job than Trump"
                Biden and the Dems are toast. I used to think Carter was the worst Dem President in history. Biden is doing is absolute best to win that accolade.

                • Macro

                  Biden signed the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure plan into law – the largest federal investment in infrastructure in more than a decade. In total, the measure contains $550 billion in new funds to improve the nation’s highways, roads, bridges, ports, rail, pipes, and public transit systems, as well as upgrades to the electrical grid and expanded access to broadband internet. Before signing the legislation, Biden said “we’re finally getting this done” in a nod to Trump, who repeatedly tried and failed to secure a bipartisan infrastructure deal. “My message for the American people is this: America’s moving again, and your life’s going to change for the better.” Trump, meanwhile, said the 13 Republicans who voted for the bill “should be ashamed of themselves” for giving Biden and Democrats a victory. In the House, Democratic leaders expect to vote on the roughly $2 trillion climate, safety net, and tax package this week and send it to the Senate, despite uncertainty over the measure’s cost. The timing of Senate vote, however, is complicated by a Dec. 3 deadline to avoid a government shutdown, address the debt limit, and pass the annual defense policy bill. If the social safety net and climate bill passes the House and Senate, the total increased infrastructure spending as a share of the economy will eclipse Roosevelt’s New Deal. (New York Times

      • RedLogix 3.1.2

        Of the three nations, the USA, PRC and the Russian Federation – there is no question that the USA is the strongest in raw geopolitical terms. From a purely political perspective however all three are entangled in their own internal cultural crisis of legitimacy.

        It's far too lazy to simply say 'they're all as bad as each other' – because plainly they're not. Each crisis is quite different in nature, and likely to have divergent outcomes. They will all emerge from the next few decades looking quite different.

        But what they do share in common is that even as major regional powers – all three are bumping up against the limits of the nation state in a globalised world.

    • RedLogix 3.2

      Yes – that's a well put together comment that confirms clearly enough the facts.

      Finally, I only hope that as a result of hopefully meditating on their own position during this obvious fraud, more "lefties' will be a little more circumspect in future…oh no wait..China.

      My own position on the Steele dossier was of skepticism. While it seemed reasonable to think that Putin would prefer Trump as more likely to want to do business than war, it struck me as very unlikely there could ever be collusion. And one flakey dossier absent any other evidence was certainly never a case.

      And while I'm not in the crowd that demonises Putin at every turn, it's possible to have respect for his considerable success in the context of Russian history, while being no fan of his authoritarian impulses and his failure to migrate the nation he leads towards democracy. As with all strong man rulers – when he finally leaves the scene the resulting political vacuum will likely implode horribly.

      The case against the PRC by contrast rests on a far broader foundation.

      • Blazer 3.2.1

        Putin certainly brought stability and respect to a Mother Russe that was on its knees,pillaged and plundered by the adoption of…'market forces'!

        As for democracy!-try Saudi Arabia,Fiji,Thailand,Singapore to mention a few.

        Not forgetting democracy must always be blessed by Uncle Sam or it may have to be ….replaced with extreme prejudice.

        • RedLogix 3.2.1.1

          Not forgetting democracy must always be blessed by Uncle Sam

          And why not – they were paying for the security. All you had to do was be on their side against communism. Many nations managed that simple trick.

          • Blazer 3.2.1.1.1

            Was Mossadeagh communist,was Allende?

            • RedLogix 3.2.1.1.1.1

              It's easy to mis-attribute the causes here. Both were reasonably moderate socialist reformers – in common with many other nations – and if that was as far as it went the Americans would have been very unlikely to interfere.

              Both however nationalised key industries – oil and copper – which was always going to be perceived by the US as communist in nature.

              They both had a complex relationship with the Soviets, Allende receiving a Lenin Peace Prize for example, and both had domestic factions that received considerable support from the communists. Remember the Cold War was far more intense and dangerous than it's commonly portrayed – and this compelled the Americans to regard both leaders as compromised and no longer worth the risk.

              As I said the deal was that you had to be against communism, not half-arsed pussy-foot around with it – and with all great powers faced with complex decisions they could and often had to be quite ruthless.

              If you imagine however that a world dominated by the ideology that brought you Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot would have been any kind of utopia – I'm not interested.

              • Blazer

                Personally I see nothing wrong with nationalising key industries.

                It benefits citizens,rather than exporting profits to foreign powers.

                As you know free trade doesn't exist and we see the increasing imposition of tariffs and trade barriers by the U.S on competitors who compete too well.

                A little surprised to see that McCarthyism is still alive and well….do you look under the bed every morning…Red!laugh

              • gsays

                Surely the actions against a country nationalising it's resources isn't anti-communism, it is serving the corporations that fund the 2 parties in the failing state.

    • Ad 3.3

      Last count was 34 indictments:

      And the grand-daddy of them all, having managed Trump's 2016 campaign while all the Russian intelligence links were intensifying and still the most dangerous political operative in the US, is Steven Bannon. But finally justice has caught up with him yesterday so he can cool his heels in jail for a year or two.

      Check out the indictments on Hillary Clinton's team. What's the count up to there?

      We can now also start the list of core Republican activists indicted for the January 6th riot to overturn the elections. What's the number we are up to there? Over 600.

      Check out all the Clintonistas and Bidenite Democrats indicted for that one.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Counsel_investigation_(2017%E2%80%932019)

      [link added]

    • Stuart Munro 3.4

      You're dreaming.

      The pathetic dupes of Russian disinformation are a curiousity in the west – in former Soviet satellites they attract disbelief or outright contempt.

      • Nic the NZer 3.4.1

        One of the implications seems to be that the Steel dosier was more or less assembled in Washington.

        • Stuart Munro 3.4.1.1

          It is, rather like the histrionics around a reported chemical attack in Syria, mostly a bag of wind intended to discredit a pretty reliable source – MI6 in this case, Bellingcat in the other. There is no truth or credibility to be had from such games, half the intent of which is to create a false equivalence – "everyone does it" from poisoning to corruption to issuing false media stories.

          The West, for all its flaws, largely does not, but Soviet and Putin's post-Glasnost kleptocracy do this stuff routinely. If not all accusations against them prove true, it is not because their scruples prevented them.

          • Nic the NZer 3.4.1.1.1

            I'm confused, are you saying the Trump campaign is a mostly reliable source?

            Or are you saying that the Steel dosier was actually assembled via Russia (not Washington), in fact the Russian government.

            • Stuart Munro 3.4.1.1.1.1

              You may safely take it that I am not, nor shall ever, endorse Trump.

              that the Steel dosier was actually assembled via Russia

              Well Steel's sources were mostly Russian – but substantially, the attack on Steel, and the killing of some of his sources, owe more to Moscow than to Washington.

              • Nic the NZer

                So when Adam Schiff, says he wasn't to know that people could be lying to Steel (and the FBI) and that they should be prosecuted for that, thats coming from the top (e.g Putin)?

                • Stuart Munro

                  Who knows? The object was to discredit a genuine critique, which has substantially been achieved. Everyone in the information chain is an acceptable loss to Putin.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    Well I just put it down to Adam Schiff deflecting away from the fact he had both promoted the Steel dosier to congress and claimed he had independently verified its truth.

                    But you seem to be saying Putin is now manipulating him to undermine his previous positions. Is anyone in Washington not a Putin puppet?

    • AB 3.5

      When the two major political parties represent the interests of different (even overlapping) sectors of corporate power, how do they differentiate themselves in the public mind? Seems to me that a fair bit of what gets acted out as 'politics' in the US, is this attempted differentiation in action.

    • Gabby 3.6

      Out of absolutely nothing? No meetings or phone convos at all between trumpkins and putinanas?

  4. francesca 4

    The TS was so full of this .Every threadbare bone the media flung , the dogs rushed for , salivating for meat that was never there.

    The number of "smoking guns" that fizzled, the walls that were supposedly closing in that weren't even a tear in the wallpaper.

    Hope springs eternal , and manipulators will always find an easy mark.

    • RedLogix 4.1

      Yes. There is a lesson to be learned from this. And none of us are exempt really.

    • gsays 4.2

      The TS is still full of this.

      There is something about opinions that folk find hard to resile from. Rather than accept positions were taken without all facts, easier to doubledown, get pedantic/semantic or just nasty. Typing stuff that might get yr nose impacted in the 'real' world.

      The repeating of tropes from overseas and throwing them in to influence local opinion is something occuring a lot round the mandated medicine.

    • vto 4.3

      there are plenty of facts highlighting the well-worn route to authoritarianism that Trump was (and still is) walking..

      it aint nothing new..

      I think you judge trump-ism in 5-10 years and lets see what has unfolded..

      the path to dictatorship, fascism and authoritarianism is always a decade or more..

  5. Pete 5

    At last a bit of background to the vaccination rates in Murupara and the stand-off with the local GP.

    “It has been my style of medicine since I qualified to give people information and then let them choose. I respect the freedom to choose,” he said.

    But the area has a very low vaccination rate, I pointed out.

    “Well, you have to ask people why they have chosen not to vaccinate – I have not given opinions, I just share data, and then they decide.”

    So rather than surmising from listening to the recent reports on RNZ and getting information from the doctor's Facebook, we can draw conclusions with the story straight from him.

    To me it sounds like he thinks he has spent 30 years informing people and having them develop healthy (pun) attitudes to issues of their health. Yet they have ended up ignorant, at risk and in the palm of his hand.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126983349/gp-is-treated-like-a-hero-in-his-small-town-but-are-his-statements-putting-lives-at-risk

    • dv 5.1

      I just share data,

      What and whose data?

      • Jenny how to get there 5.1.1

        A very good question.

        When the climate emergency first burst into the headlines, and became a matter of public discourse; most media gave equal time to the overwhelming weight of scientific expert opinion, and the opinions of the tiny minority of climate change scpetics.

        Is that is what is going on here?

    • Tricledrown 5.2

      When the proverbial hits the Fan its only 5 weeks between no immunity and the best protection available by then it will be to late for those who see how deadly this virus is . After billions of doses vaccines have saved millions of lives I can't understand a highly trained man of science a doctor undermining his local community.

      When the ambulance service is over run hospitals stretching beyond capacity remote communities will suffer an exponential growing morbidity rate will that Doctor keep pushing his anti science ignorance.

  6. Molly 6

    Transgender Awareness Week:

    The UK's first non-binary mayor, Owen Hurcum, elected Mayor of Bangor in 2021 defines to Stephen Nolan of the BBC what it is to be non-binary and what that means in this 20 minute podcast.

    If life is too short, or like me you prefer to read, an accurate transcript of the podcast can be found here.

    At around 13.55 of Episode 3 of the same podcast series, Ben Cohen from Pink News defines for Nolan other gender identity terms including two-spirit.

    Once again, the transcript for the readers is here.

    • Molly 6.1

      For learning about the meaning of Genderqueer, Jacob Tobia has explained what this means to him on MTV.

      Like so many genderqueer people, my transition has not been from one gender identity to "the other." Rather, it has been from the well-understood categories of man and woman to an identity outside traditional notions of gender. Over the years, I’ve learned to embrace both my love of lipstick and my facial hair, my affinity for sequins and my broad shoulders. I’ve learned to love all parts of myself equally, to hold my femininity and my masculinity in tandem — understanding them not in opposition, but as compliments to one another.

      My transition did not entail many physical alterations to my body. Instead, it involved learning to think about my body differently, to appreciate the suppleness in my masculine frame or the strength in my expressive wrists. Learning to break free from the bounds of manhood, to love my femininity and share it with the world, to embrace my gender in its full complexity, has been the work of a lifetime.

      If you are still wondering, read the full article, he does take time to explain.

  7. Jenny how to get there 7

    As the virus continues its spread in Auckland. Many Aucklanders now know of someone, either a friend or coleague, or extended family member, who has caught the virus. Where Auckland goes the rest of the country will follow.

    Nobody can afford complacency.

    The silence of the lambs, (for slaughter).

    Why has this not being covered in the media?

    In a shocking twistt, the nurse who vaccinated the Prime Minister, who is noted amongst her colleagues as an outspoken advocate for vaccination. Neglected to vaccinate her own children.
    Tragically her 15 year old daughter caught the virus and had had to be taken into Middlemore hospital, with severe complications and pneumonia.

    The good news is that she is recovering.

    This is a wake up call for all of us.

    No Body, none of us, can afford to be complacent.

    • Maurice 7.1

      At least the unvaxxed will be safe at home watching the rest of us wander around infecting each other and, by overseas data, some of the vaccinated probably dying.

      • Jenny how to get there 7.1.1

        Maurice

        16 November 2021 at 9:50 am

        …..At least the unvaxxed will be safe at home watching the rest of us wander around infecting each other and, by overseas data, some of the vaccinated probably dying.

        Even the unvaxxed have to go shopping and mingle with the public at some point.

        Not only that; Having bought into the conspiracy theories surrounding the pandemic and the vaccine, anti-vaxxers are extremely unlikely to adhere to any stay at home mandate. More likely, blatently flout them.

        This is why we have to try for herd immunity – to protect these fools from themselves.

        • Sabine 7.1.1.1

          with click and collect / or click n deliver no one actually has to go out to shop. But the unfortunate 'essential worker' is the one who takes most of the risk, and funnily enough is also the least paid in that particlar circle of Dantes hell.

          So frankly, if someone vaccinated is so scared of the unvaccinated, stay at home, don't leave the house, because fwiw, the jab don't prevent transmission, nor infection, but hopefully keeps one alive. Always keep that in mind.

          So don't worry about the Fools, Jennifer, protect yourself, and that is about the best you can do.

        • Molly 7.1.1.2

          Double vaxxed (almost) household here, just waiting for second jabs.

          Three immuno-suppressed people on the property, and I'm thinking we are going to have to put some kind of sign up on the gate to ask people to keep away. In the last week, we've had two drop-ins of friends wanting to catch up because they're double vaxxed. Had to do some kind of weird moonwalk to engage, until they got the message.

          Trying to figure out the wording:

          "Hi all, double vaccinated household with three immuno-compromised people on the property. We'd love to catch up, but are self-isolating as much as possible to safeguard, so give us a call on the phone. We'd love to hear from you."

          One of the young men who lives in our granny flat has several syndromes that have made him concerned about casual visits. I'm all for the drop-in culture of my youth, but some modification to this has to take place while dealing with this pandemic.

          • Sabine 7.1.1.2.1

            Virgil and I have been living in L3.2 – 9 since we came out last year from lockdown. One reason simply is that we have a business to protect, and he as an essential worker is the one to run the risk bringing it home, thus infecting me. This is a when – not if scenario.

            I have had several brain scrapes now because he was in an area with positive cases that might warrant extra scrutiny. As of Sunday last i am Covid free…….. 🙂

            All of my friends know that my bubble is stupid small and that fb/zoom/text/phone is going to be it for a while longer.
            And all of my customers have stopped complaining that it is strictly no entering the shop, stay behind the plague door please.

            You do what you have to do, and friends are not friends if they can not abide by the rules that meant to safeguard us and them.

            • Molly 7.1.1.2.1.1

              Partner is also essential worker, who strangely enough, doesn't want to bring anything home that might impact further on already strained health outcomes.

              His employer bought enough tests to saliva-test the employees twice a week, so they can respond as fast as possible to any positives, and protect the rest of the workforce.

              The political push around vaccinations seem to have made some I know think the problem is solved. It's a strange world to navigate socially, but I will have to get those signs up soon.

              We used to have a drop in household – not any more.

          • Anker 7.1.1.2.2

            Good on you Molly. I agree, important to be assertive aboout what is best for your household.

            My husband is Maori and cause of his health, age etc, I am fiercely protective of him. It meant saying no to some rellies who were just out of MIQ for abig shin dig. It wasn't easy to do. And this was before delta. I would hope that others would respect others choices and needs around keeping themselves safe.

            Xmas. Well that will be interesting.

        • Maurice 7.1.1.3

          "This is why we have to try for herd immunity – to protect these fools from themselves."

          The chimera of herd immunity has well and truly been abandoned

          From: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/why-bidens-vaccine-mandate-hasnt-delivered-promised-results

          The scientific basis for the mandate is dubious. We are told that the vaccine is effective and safe. If this assertion were true, there would be no reason for coercion, as everyone would voluntarily take the vaccine. Furthermore, anyone taking the vaccine would have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. If the vaccine worked, then everyone taking the vaccine would be protected.

          What would the effect of 100 percent vaccination rate be on the virus? Contrary to claims, the virus will not disappear. The next outbreak would occur within a year and would be 100 percent breakthrough cases with a vaccine-resistant strain. Then we would need another vaccine mandate, and another, ad infinitum.

          • Gabby 7.1.1.3.1

            You could drive a 4 horse hearse through the logic gap in that bolded paragraph morry.

          • McFlock 7.1.1.3.2

            We are told that the vaccine is effective and safe. If this assertion were true, there would be no reason for coercion, as everyone would voluntarily take the vaccine.

            If the last 18 months has demonstrated anything, it's demonstrated that a significant proportion of the human population will actively resist applying even the most infinitesimal effort towards self-preservation.

            • Maurice 7.1.1.3.2.1

              " … a significant proportion of the human population will actively resist applying even the most infinitesimal effort towards self-preservation."

              On the vax issue perhaps both pro and anti are applying efforts towards self-preservation … just with diametrically different reactions to the plethora of information/misinformation which is daily flooding through.

              It will be a huge shock if (when?) there are terrible consequences for either conclusion.

              • McFlock

                Not just vaccines. Masks, distancing, following the fucking arrows in the supermarket aisle. Everything. Some folks will ignore it all, just because they think they're the smartest people in the room.

                As for terrible consequences, we're already seeing them.

                tl:dr: unvaccinated vax-eligible people make up 235/345 hospitalisations, and 2719/5973 cases. Fully vaccinated 14 hospitalisations and 604 cases.

                Completely unvaccinated people have been a tiny minority in NZ for quite some time, yet make up 45% of cases and 68% of hospitalisations.

                Get your vax, people.

                • Maurice

                  And yet there appears to have been a problem with Deaths reported after vaccination with nearly half being annotated: "could not be assessed due to insufficient information" OR " unlikely related to the COVID-19 vaccine"

                  That does not provide any certainty or lay to rest doubts.

                  https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-34.asp

                  Summary of reported deaths

                  Up to and including 23 October 2021, a total of 94 deaths were reported to CARM after the administration of the Comirnaty vaccine. Following medical assessments by CARM and Medsafe it has been determined that:

                  • 41 of these deaths are unlikely related to the COVID-19 vaccine
                  • 42 deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
                  • 10 cases are still under investigation.
                  • 1 death was likely due to vaccine induced myocarditis (awaiting Coroner’s determination)
                  • McFlock

                    I'm always impressed at how some folks can look up all sorts of reference documents, read enough to cut&paste, and then accidentally (let's say "accidentally") miss out the bits that directly contradict their position:

                    To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of natural deaths.

                    So yeah, about a hundred people died. One even had a cause of death probably related to the vaccination. Out of 6 million-odd doses. 1 in 60k.

                    Covid: 10,000 cases in 18 months, 33 deaths. My math makes that 1 in 300. So even if all deaths were cause by its respective variable, covid is 200 times more lethal than the vaccine that stops covid for most people.

                    But there are contraindications, so as your link also stated (right up the top in a colourful box to get your attention):

                    Medsafe advises people NOT to make any decisions about vaccination based on information contained in this report. If you have questions or concerns about receiving a vaccine, please speak to a health care professional.

                    • Maurice

                      So Data from MedSafe is not to be used as a basis for decisions … and data randomly quoted from on the internet is?

                      Many local health professionals will not guarantee that any vaccine is fully "safe" or that any particular individual will not have an adverse reaction. They cannot even get antibody tests done.

                    • McFlock

                      Data from medsafe has caveats because people might read the bits that appeal to them while ignoring the bits that contradict their assumptions – like you just did.

                      But if you take your medical advice from pseudonymous randos on the internet, that might be part of your malfunction.

                      Nothing is fully safe. People die trying to get out of bed. You're demanding something that doesn't exist.

        • Pete 7.1.1.4

          "Even the unvaxxed have to go shopping and mingle with the public at some point." Not to mention that they have to go and protest about something.

          • James 2 7.1.1.4.1

            Infinitesimal effort?

            I think you mean, unthinking effort.

            The far, far, far, far majority of us face little risk from Covid-19 (0.01% or less), unless we are over 70, have co-mobidities, or immuni-compromised. Children face more risk from car accidents.

            The viral load and transmission protection from the vaccine is looking decidedly limited after merely a couple of months. Serious hospitalisation/death – better, but also declines. Hence, the utter oxymoron of 'vaccines saves you'…but 'vaccines protection is bad and needs boosting'. And we are not talking about a boost after 5 years – 5 months more like.

            Natural immunity is appearing far longer lasting and broader in protection. Early treatments can be successful and have been approved as a way to also cut serious illness and death.

            MRNA vaccines, like all medicine, have side effects. Luckily, this appears quite rare when it comes to serious illness or death. But it's enough that multiple countries have made different cost/benefit calculations to prohibitions prohibitions use on younger people. For all its studies, it is still a very new medicine. Health is an intensely private and individuated matter.

            So the idea vaccination is some simple 'duh' idea is, duh itself. It clearly brings benefits, but they're far more limited than we perceive, and mainly fall to those smaller minority at higher risk.

            So I encouraged my cancer-recovered mother to get it. I also got it, but mainly only to be able to travel. I have done my societel duty – but it will never be enough. There always be more compliance necessary, more possible variants, more modelling to tell us just how it's quite possible the world will end unless we do X.

            But more and more I think it is a faustian pact – not necessarily in a medical (although I am concerned about natural immune suppression) but a political and moral faustian pact.

            Nobody wants any loved one to die, but day we face death, whether we like it, or know it, or not. Every day we make, and are exposed to, bad or risky decisions.

            But today, now, all that matters is the small risk of Covid-19 and modelling that has so consistently over-estimated risks.

            I applaud doctors and nurses, but the idea they are disinterested observers in a question which is essentially "do you need more money and resources" is deluding themselves. It's like asking a judge whether people are good or bad – when 85% of the people he interacts with are criminals.

            What I think lies at the bottom is a craven submission and compliance (desire to avoid conflict/be liked) at the bottom of the NZ psyche and an inability to accept death in our face, unsanitised, despite accepting it for years and years (sanitised).

            I keep waiting for a decent argument to justify mandates, passports, and endless lockdowns but all you get is "save lives!" Whose? Why are they more important? How much lives? For how long? At what cost? And why suddenly now do you pretend to care now when poverty, housing, etc is at record inequality levels?

            We now think like a healthocracy, not a democracy. That's where we are.

            • Maurice 7.1.1.4.1.1

              Precisely. More of us would benefit from critical thought and weighing the questions you raise.

            • Jenny how to get there 7.1.1.4.1.2

              More of us could benefit from some actual facts. Instead of an empty stream of thought rant, devoid of proofs.

  8. Molly 8

    In terms of building and planning, addressing climate change in NZ requires a National Policy Statement that would then compel all regional and local authorities to change bylaws, regional, unitary and district plans to comply.

    I don't follow other regions, but I believe Auckland Transport and Auckland Council have to be reintegrated to meaningfully encourage transition solutions. How people move and how people live and work both need to be considered in conjunction with each other every time planning decisions are made.

    The promised quality component of the Unitary Plan was lost when the Auckland Design Manual was decoupled from the Unitary Plan itself. Some of those who voted against this were derided as transphobic anti-density rather than pro-quality.

    We don't have the money, time or resources to continue making the same mistakes even during a housing crisis. Melbourne has examples of what happens when housing is provided without context or connections.

    References and commitments to walkable communities and cycling infrastructure is moving in the right direction, but there is a reluctance to differentiate between recreational projects and commuter. Regarding transition to a lower energy lifestyle, there is a significant difference, and return on investment.

    One problem is the difficult task of retrofitting existing communities and neighbourhoods. Perhaps instead of Panuku Development selling off underutilised community land and assets, a considered effort into identifying and developing those parcels for the purpose of improving neighbourhoods can take place.

    The current mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, takes our walkable aspirations further, to the quarter hour city:

    The Socialist politician wants to encourage more self-sufficient communities within each arrondissement of the French capital, with grocery shops, parks, cafes, sports facilities, health centres, schools and even workplaces just a walk or bike ride away.

    As New Zealand has a relatively young planning and building evolution, one that has grown from a large expansive undeveloped land and the assumed use of private vehicles, experience in providing good design and buildings in higher density often means putting bigger houses on smaller sections, or building traditional apartment style dwellings.

    The only developer with the resources and political power to address this is Kainga Ora. But it doesn't appear that they will.

    In regards to energy reduction, one very simple requirement for new developments or buildings would be to design and build buildings for best solar orientation for reduced energy use, and judicious use of thermal mass. Yet we persist in demanding requirements only for R-values.

    As innovators, and environmentalists New Zealand is failing not only at building houses, but building (and renovating) communities and resilience.

  9. weka 9

    For the people annoyed at so much gender/sex war postings in OM, bear in mind that we see things like this multiple times in a day. We're just posting a fraction of what is going on. And, the MSM is not reporting on most of it.

    This one is about conversion therapy at home. Queer parent insists their 3 yr old boy is a trans girl, despite the boy apparently not being into it.

    • Molly 9.1

      How shocking! They must be unsuitable parents to not notice their child was transgender until they were THREE.

      Ph. D. Diane Ehrensaft, helpfully describes how to identify for parents who are seeking not to be so neglectful.

    • Puckish Rogue 9.2

      Its important because its real and its happening right now so keep posting

    • Sabine 9.3

      are the parents afraid that this child might be gasped a 'normie' or 'gay' or simply just 'flamboyant'?

      A pox on the house of all lawmakers the world over that allow for this type of child abuse.

      • Anker 9.3.1

        100% Sabine.

        • Shanreagh 9.3.1.1

          OMG. Some will watch this and think it is gospel.

          From a little girl right up to secondary school, who was always wanting to play with the boys, dressing boyishly, having short, short hair by choice…. looking back now because they played fast and physical games and my dad was very athletic, so genetic and nurtured. . Also because I was tall and strong, at that stage, for my age.

          I also wanted guns as well as beloved dolls. Was talked out of the guns despite putting up my best 3 year old arguments…shoot people who were being cruel to self and others…..

          Oh dear the mistakes my poor parents could have made.

          But they just went with the flow, in those days our clothes were more unisex than they are now it was a bit easier. It sorted itself out at puberty.

          • Anne 9.3.1.1.1

            Reminds me of a niece of mine. At the age of 3 all she wanted was a gun for Xmas. A big gun. Her mother was so appalled she banned toy guns from the house.

            The niece got her way in the end. She's now a police officer.

    • Nic the NZer 9.4

      The child certainly seems to be figuring it out. I actually think there is unlikely to be much of a long term issue here. A lot of kids think if a boy starts wearing a dress they become a girl at 3 and they seem to figure it out without it causing problems for them long term.

      • Molly 9.4.1

        "A lot of kids think if a boy starts wearing a dress they become a girl at 3 and they seem to figure it out without it causing problems for them long term."

        Can you unpick that sentence? I'm not sure what you are saying, and I don't want to make assumptions before responding.

        • Nic the NZer 9.4.1.1

          Your not compelled to reply.

          • Molly 9.4.1.1.1

            Well, thanks for the response, however intended.

            I agree there is little concern regarding the other children, but the original post came from the parents of the child. As the trusted adult's in this child's life they can have a beneficial or harmful impact in the way they respond.

            As a non-conforming child, and a parent of non-conforming children, I believe even looking at children through this perspective at this age is harmful.

            • Sabine 9.4.1.1.1.1

              Any three year old would have played 'i am a girl, or i am a boy' at some stage, generally when they realise that we don't all look the same down there, wrapped in curtains to play princess or bride, stalked about in mums heels or dads working boots. Its called play, exploring, and learning.

              to take this as my kid is transgender and needs to go on puperty blockers at age 10 and have estrogen pumped into him until he grows boobs and then have a micro penis inverted in order to create something loosely resembling a 'vagina' is on hte parents. It is them who wants the transgender child, and like with Jazz Jennings has very little to do with anything the kid may feel or want.

              • Molly

                Agree, Sabine.

                (For peace of mind, don't watch the Youtube video posted above. The nonsense that comes out of that psychologists mouth, is abhorrent, given the influence and power she has. I have little doubt that some children and families attending the Child and Adolescent Gender Centre she co-founded have been harmed, if not most.)

            • Nic the NZer 9.4.1.1.1.2

              I would challenge that notion that how the parents perceive their child is a problem. At minimum they need to be acting on their perception before its actually harmful and that action needs to be harmful, which I didn't get from this story at all.

              So for example before 3 children develop the idea that they have thoughts and descriptions of events and behaviours which other children and adults may or may not have seen happen. In other words they learn about truth and lying and having a separate perception of events from others.

              As far as I know even children whos parents are always trusted and truthful with them learn about this. Sometimes to the horror of the those parents.

              Parents inculcating values and behaviours on kids is really more of a loose guide than an upload process and probably all kids have inbuilt concepts of gender which would be hard to override (as they do for language).

              • Molly

                The original post starts with:

                "My three year old child is transgender. We've told the preschool but the problem is that 'she' never mentions being trans – even though we've talked about pronouns. I'm worried 'she' will feel shame if other pupils find out 'she' has different body parts to other girls"

                They are acting on their perception, they have socially transitioned the child and they are asking others to comply. I would think there definitely would be some questions from that child when they do compare body parts to girls. Whether that will be shameful or not is up to chance.

                Old school Playcentre parents would be laughing this approach out the door. Explorative play without interference is the reason Playcentres were so popular.

                This social transitioning is compounded by the parents lying to their child. If you don't see a problem with that, then I disagree with you.

                • Nic the NZer

                  Well she seems to be pretty keen on him socially transitioning, but I didn't see much evidence that he thinks hes socially transitioned in some way. As far as I can tell the childcare centre just ignores mom when shes not there anyway.

                  • Molly

                    The parents are also telling their child he is a girl. That's gaslighting, whether to a child or an adult.

                    I understand you don't think it is a problem, but harm comes to children when the trusted adults in their life cannot be trusted. The level of harm will depend on circumstance and intervention, but the harm is still there.

                    • Molly

                      If the parent was saying to the child any of these things we would recognise them as harmful right away:

                      You are stupid.

                      You are no good at anything.

                      No one likes you.

                      They are statements that have no way out, and cannot be proved. They are accepted by children and internalised. Either the child will reach a point where they fully embrace those ideas, or develop the strength and resilience to reject them. But with rejection comes an understanding of the betrayal of the parents who told them these things were true.

                      The falsehood and the betrayal are present in this situation.

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      Hold on a minute, just which of the relayed conversations are you saying is like a parent berrating their child with 'you are stupid'?

                    • Molly

                      As mentioned in the first sentence, we can probably all see the harm in making judgements on children like the examples I gave.

                      The parents are also making a judgement and putting that judgement into words.

                      Telling their boy child he is a girl is both a lie, and a betrayal.

                      If they get away with this gaslighting for a while, the emergence of puberty will most likely bring the child some distress. That distress regarding the development of natal sex characteristics may be alleviated by puberty blockers. Which then leads onto cross-sex hormones and/or surgery to maintain the fiction.

                      There is evidence that social transition will often lead on to medical transitions. Helen Joyce's book has researched this, but you can seek it out for yourself.

                      At the least it leads onto a breaking of trust, and a skewed perception of the world and your place in it.

                    • Molly

                      There is a balanced article here that includes some of the questions around social transitioning of very young children, that might be of interest to you.

                      A Review of Desistance

                      I haven't heard of the website before but their home page says:

                      "A RESOURCE & COMMUNITY FOR PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT SAME-SEX ATTRACTED YOUNG PEOPLE HARMED BY MEDICAL TRANSITION FOR GENDER DYSPHORIA"

                    • Molly

                      Actually, that's a pretty good website.

                      Have just looked at another page, called Moral Dilemma that puts the case for and against childhood early transitioning, which includes social transitioning from the parents.

                  • Sabine

                    the first step to transing your toddler and pretoddler is 'socially outing' them as trans gender. It does not matter what the kid wants, or even understand what socially outing means. The fact that the parent want to present him as a girl despite him stating himself that he is a boy should raise hundreds if not thousands of red flag.

                    And if any other adults around him are supportive of the parents rather then the child, will that child have a chance to prevent what his parents have in mind for him? Will anyone even be able to help, considering the new hate crime bill and its implications?

                    This is how it goes:

                    Socially out the child as trans,

                    change names and pronouns and every one will adhere to that lest they want to be phobes or have a chat with the police for hate crimes and mis-gendering, putting the child on puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones and into surgery.

                    Essentially a chemical castration somewhere between 11 – 13 and surgical removal of scrotum and penis by inverting the lot to build a vagina with a 'hole' that needs daily dilating to stay open somewhere around 18 – the childs penis will be the size it was when it was put on puberty blockers.

                    Life long injections of hormones to prevent the body from reverting back to its sex based self.

                    And follow up surgery and treatment for various issues with the nether region should the surgery be a botch job as it was with Jazz Jennings, and so many others.

                    But yeah….nothing to see here, move along.

                    • Nic the NZer

                      Is this what that parent is obviously planning? Or just what you would do in their mindset?

                    • weka

                      Nic, it's what the cultural shift is towards. Girls are bearing it harder (hence the increasing number of detrans women), but boys are getting it too.

                      What we need is research on what the impact is on children and whether it does indeed lead to later medical transition. Or the need for psychotherapy.

                      But No Debate has been blocking a lot of research, so here we are on social media guessing.

                    • Sabine

                      Nic the NZer…

                      16 November 2021 at 4:35 pm

                      This is what happens and has happened to boys who have been transed by their parents while they were diaper wearing toddlers who then changed birth certificates for these kids one socially outed, and well, what do you think is going to happen by the time the kid gets to ten +years old and puberty hits?

                      Do you think that the mother is suddenly ok with having a son when she pretended for the last ten + years that she had a girl? And in this case it is clearly the mother who wants a trans child rather then the kid at age three believing that he was born in the wrong body.

                      The parents are bordering on being abusive.

                    • Anker
                      • Thanks for telling it like it is Sabine
                  • weka

                    are you saying there's no problem with a parent socially transitioning their boy to girl, even if the boy isn't trans?

                    • Nic the NZer

                      In this case it just sounds like mom has some odd ideas and expectations about gender and the boy is developing completely normally. Probably he has no idea what he was supposed to do about his pronouns as at 3 hes still working on sentences.

                    • Molly

                      Normal child development includes having a parent lie to you about your sex?

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      There are actually plenty of lies we would consider a perfectly normal part of childhood socialisation. But in this case I am just highlighting you have zero evidence that the boy is acting in any unusual way for a 3 y.o.

                    • Molly

                      The problem does not lie with the boy, but with the parents. I see no-one here, saying the boy's behaviour is unusual.

                      (BTW, might have employed some fancy wordplay when it came to Santa, but took care never to lie to my children.)

                    • Nic the NZer []

                      "I see no-one here, saying the boys behaviour is unusual."

                      Speaking of gas lighting did you catch the reply when all I suggested was the boy is (for all we know) developing completely normally.

                    • weka

                      I'm not suggesting the boy is acting in an unusual way, I'm suggesting the parent is. It's the parent's anxiety and stress about it and what they are doing that's the issue. Admittedly the story they tell is unclear, but I thought they were expecting other people to refer to the boy as she. I'm guessing the parent dresses the boy as a girl (hence the fear of when others find out he's a boy).

                      That sounds to me like the parent projecting gender on to a child. I think that's a problem developmentally, but also tracking towards a medical life. Hopefully the parent will grow out of it.

                      I'm raising general issues here that we know are happening in other situations. And the problem is complex, because we also know that other parents are harming their gnc or trans kids by doing the same thing (projecting). I'm just pointing out the problem with the current ideology and the limitations of the conversion conversations (and probably law).

            • Pete 9.4.1.1.1.3

              They may be the "trusted parents" in the child's life and they are free to do what they want. I wouldn't trust them with raising ants let alone a child.

      • Sabine 9.4.2

        Someone needs to tell that to the mother and father of the child. They seem to believe that their boy is a girl, and he better get on with identifying correctly.

    • Anker 9.5

      thanks for posting Weka and Molly.

      I don't thinkwe need to apologise for posting this stuff. It is Open Mike afterall.

      Currently Open Mike is somewhat dominated by Covid. Its allowed to be.

      I think a lot of people don't fully understand what is going on re gender Ideology. They uncritically accept that if someone is advocating for trans right, then thats all they need to know and out of kindness they accept it.

      I would have been like this and probably was at some stage till I heard what was going on in the LBGT space. And then I started reading and I saw clips like the one about how to tell if you pre verbal child is transgender by their non verbal cues such as unbuttioning their jump suit and flapping it about. Most of us would conclude that thebaby is hot, has a rash, is being playful, has just discovered how clever she is that she can do this trick.

      I would love to see a child development psychologist respond to this.

      • Molly 9.5.1

        When my children's onesies did that it usually meant the hand-me-downs had reached the end of their journey. What did I know?

        • alwyn 9.5.1.1

          Amazing isn't it?

          I now begin to see why my children grew up identifying with the sex they were born as. No onesies in those days so they never got the chance to adopt transgender habits.

          • Molly 9.5.1.1.1

            I guess you were also lucky never to have washed your white nappies with your red or navy socks. That would have been a dilemma!

    • McFlock 9.6

      Of course you see it every day. Twitter, like the rest of social media, is built around fuelling audience outrage.

      You see it because it will irk you, you post it here. Bets on whether that twitter link's embed code includes your account? And because it's embedded, every time someone opens TS twitter knows that tweet has been seen, who generated it, and who shared it here.

      So you'll get more of the same content. And get silod by content curated entirely to annoy you.

      As for the content itself? Meh. Maybe someone in the world is stupid, or maybe they have a more nuanced view that is accidentally mischaracterised due the the nature of the medium. Or maybe it's completely fabricated for the clicks or simply as a pious fraud. Whatever it's true nature, to me it's not as real as the yellow flower in my buttonhole today.

      • weka 9.6.1

        it doesn't annoy me McFlock, it sets off my political radar in the same way that reading about misogyny or racism does.

        Twitter is manipulating you just as much as me, but we're both smart people who understand this and take it into account. I get the tweets fed to me as much because I like this tweet and don't like that one and I actively curate my twitter account.

        (I'll also point out that people stopping talking to me has the impact of increasing the ratio of GC tweets, so well done No Debate, lol).

        How is this any different to MSM headlines, or TS ones for that matter? You think I don't know how to write a post subject line to get more readers?

        So what was your point exactly?

        • McFlock 9.6.1.1

          It's different because in twitter, headlines read you.

          And adapt accordingly.

          You only post a fraction of what you see. The only reason you see it all the time is because you engage with it. If I read a newspaper article, the newspaper doesn't immediately re-edit itself to include more content like that.

          You see more of it because you respond to it, then you bring it here so often because you see so much of it.

          Meanwhile, does it reflect the real world clearly? Probably not. Sure, some folks might exist, but in those proportions, to that extreme, all the time?

          edit: sorry for weird reply order – came up at the bottom of the comments, didn’t see this one first.

          • weka 9.6.1.1.1

            yes, it's different, and I have skills in understanding the biases and limitations of all the different forms of information I access.

            Still don't know what your point is other than to say we should never post things from twitter.

            • McFlock 9.6.1.1.1.1

              Not never, but never as a source of discussion. They're usually a fraction of the story, if the story happened at all, and we were chosen as recipients because we have signalled that we have been primed to be gullible to that subject material.

              It's a good thing to remember. That's why I rarely link to twitter, and generally highly qualify any comments based solely on that content.

                • McFlock

                  A "nuanced discussion" (lol – lots of straw people in that nuance) that revolves around the child displaying apparent desire to transition (regardless of whether or not they can actually provide informed consent). While the hypothetical parent scenario consists of a child who expressly does not want to develop in the direction desired by the parents.

                  • Molly

                    Sorry, picked up wrong link.

                    Should've been the first one, it relates some research into young children social transitioning, and the effect or not on persistence and further medical intervention.

                    While the hypothetical parent scenario consists of a child who expressly does not want to develop in the direction desired by the parents.

                    I'm going to assume you are a parent. I was an expert on parenting until I became one. Now, I'm just reconciled to figuring it out on the fly. Some children will be oppositional regardless of parental desire, like the child above. Others will be compliant, and accommodate those desires and act to please their parent whether or not those desires originated with them.

                    So I believe there is harm inherent in viewing children's behaviour through that lens.

                    • McFlock

                      OK, so I'm still missing the bit about what should be done regarding the specific example of those parents viewing their kids through a particular lens and trying to force them to adopt an identity that the child explicitly does not want to adopt?

                      Or should nothing be done? In which case, why is it anyone else's business to tweet it around the world?

                    • Molly

                      This idea of gender expression in children being something that has to be affirmed is new. Within gender critical circles, and old Playcentre play approaches, it would just be observed and not commented on. This is a fairly new phenomena, created and supported by some institutions and governments in the Western world.

                      We're looking at the bigger picture that has created an environment where parents are looking through that lens, not focusing on just one example.

                      What do you think should be done about those parents? Nothing?

                      In which case, why is it anyone else's business to tweet it around the world?

                      Once again, because it is a harmful practice for children on the receiving end of that parenting. Fix the phenomena, not the example.

                    • McFlock

                      To me, this is the sort of situation the conversion therapy ban is designed to restrict.

                      Because currently I'm not sure there is anything that can actually be done. What would you do?

                      Some parents have always looked through that lens. The usual picture is from the other side (parents sending their kids to straight camp, or trying to beat the gay away, or getting angry if a 4 year old boy wore a dress) rather than this direction. Same lens, different view.

                      This particular issue has aspects in common with the s59 repeal campaign: some parents thought beating kids a little bit was part of good parenting. And sometimes, juries agreed with them. But most of the time people frowned at it happening in the supermarket but couldn't see how it could be changed.

                      It took an act of parliament to seal the change in that particular social phenomena.

                  • Molly

                    I'm also heading AFK now.

                    (Just didn't want you to think I had abandoned the discussion, now that you are having one).

      • weka 9.6.2

        As for the content itself? Meh. Maybe someone in the world is stupid, or maybe they have a more nuanced view that is accidentally mischaracterised due the the nature of the medium. Or maybe it's completely fabricated for the clicks or simply as a pious fraud. Whatever it's true nature, to me it's not as real as the yellow flower in my buttonhole today.

        Again, that's already integrated into my thinking and political approach. Maybe you don't spend that much time on SM, but it's normal to have to take those things into account. What makes the tweet still relevant is that it's typical of a pattern of behaviour that I can see because I'm listening, but you apparently can't. Or won't.

        As I said, the MSM is largely not reporting, the research isn't being done, No Debate suppresses a fair amount of critiques, so we are left with tweeps like Nutmeg and others who just report it to twitter and the churn sort it out. It's far from ideal, I'd much rather have journalism and research, but here we are.

        • McFlock 9.6.2.1

          A churn mixes things up equally.

          What you don't seem to take into account is that the patterns you see have been curated specifically for you. So then you bring it here, because you see it so often and others don't – but the only reason you see so much of it is because you seek it out and amplify it.

          MSM overlook things or have a specific lens, sure. But social media is a funhouse mirror, reflecting oneself back, distorted.

          Look at how many comments have been generated from the reported attitude of a single unnamed parent. Says it all, really.

          • Molly 9.6.2.1.1

            There are legislative changes going on that will make the response to that parent either within the law or outside of it. The conversion therapy bill is ambiguous enough to give some concern to that. If an ECE centre does not affirm the social transition wishes of the parent, will they be investigated by the police – as Faafoi suggested – to see if a crime has taken place?

            These discussions are relevant, and important. You could get involved instead of just contributing snark.

            • Molly 9.6.2.1.1.1

              (By that I mean, Faafoi suggested that it would be up to the police to interpret the law, not for him to explain the limitations of it.)

            • McFlock 9.6.2.1.1.2

              Hey, I tried really hard, then some jerk consistently chose to take the worst possible interpretation of my comments each and every time and then had the gall to write a guest post about how they weren't being listened to.

              And the conversion therapy bill has precisely nothing to do with how one responds to that parent, should one ever meet them in real life and they actually happen to exist.

              • Molly

                The legislation is proposed and badly described by the Minister that introduced it.

                There are parents like that.

                The rest is snark again.

                • McFlock

                  So if there are parents like "that" (taking the worst possible interpretation of the description, where some parent is trying to make their cisgender kid fluid or trans), wouldn't the anti-conversion therapy bill be a good thing to address that parental behaviour?

                  • Molly

                    No.

                    (Succinct because you don't bother with listening before replying on this topic.)

                    • McFlock

                      But surely parents trying to force their kids to become gender fluid would be a bad thing.

                    • Molly

                      Anyone, looking at a child at that age through a lens of gender identity, whether conforming to sexist stereotypes or trans or whatever, is doing that child a disservice. That is the old Playcentre stance, and would be the Gender Critical one. Identifying any play as feminine or masculine at that age would be considered interference in development. That is the concern.

                      That includes parents, ECE, psychologists like the one above, and parents like the well-intentioned ones in the video above, and similar to the ones related in weka's original tweet.

                      This is the time for learning and exploration, not labels. To ignore that there are advisory groups, professionals and parents making these judgements (and then taking further steps to cement those judgements) is to remain willfully ignorant. There are many celebrated stories of trans toddlers, whether or not you believe there are.

                      My youngest son occasionally would decide to act like a puppy. Somewhat surprisingly, because we don't have a dog. I may have patted him on the head a few times, and thrown a couple of sticks, but I didn't change his name to Rex, register him at the council, or buy him a collar and leash and take him for a walk. Kids are trying out new ideas at this age.

                      FWIW, I don't think the conversion therapy bill is needed at all. If gay conversion therapy was commonplace in NZ, I'd be surprised if it took place at all now.

                      Gender identity has been tacked on to the end of the bill, Faafoi often forgot to include it when speaking of it, is such an anomalous abstract that to determine whether someone is trying conversion or just trying to achieve a more thorough understanding is going to be difficult if not impossible. But it may make the affirmation only approach seem like an attractive, less litigious approach.

          • weka 9.6.2.1.2

            What you don't seem to take into account is that the patterns you see have been curated specifically for you. So then you bring it here, because you see it so often and others don't

            I've already told you I understand how SM manipulation works. What you fail to understand is that I don't get all my information from twitter's algorithms, and that I understand the manipulation enough to take it into account.

            But sure, continue to write off the concerns of feminists, because they're too stupid to know what's going on.

            If you want to have a look at the specifics of that tweet, we'd be having the conversation, but instead you just want to marginalise GCF.

            • McFlock 9.6.2.1.2.1

              There does seem to be a considerable overlap between the groups "GCF" and "people who think they are smarter than the algorithm", but the people in the former group who are not part of the intersection set tend to be drowned out by those who are.

              • Shanreagh

                I'm struggling to find meaning and understanding from your post McFlock. before I file it away in my head as just a snarky personal attack on Weka, what does it mean?

                These days I would class myself as GCF. In days gone by perhaps some thing different. I know how algorithms and biases work. I would not say 'smarter than' but know when content has been dragged up for me and is irrelevant. So possibly I am one of these less likeable ones at the intersection.

                So then you mention other GCF who are being drowned out by people who are experienced at deriving content/context in a SM environment ie pushing through the algorithmic derived material.

                As I look the sentences just seem to have been thrown together and seem to be one of the logical fallacies, tu quoque* or something?

                What are you saying/trying to say?

                Most of the older GCF that I know are/were experienced researchers back in the day and most are internet searching 'natives' or close to, so well aware of knowing how to research today. So who are the GCF who may be missing out?

                *'Rather than coming up with a valid counter-argument, those using the tu quoque fallacy invalidate their opponent's criticisms by addressing them with another criticism. With this kind of argument, you find a way to attack your opponent instead of coming up with a logical reason to argue against their original claim' from here

                https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/logical-fallacies-examples.

                Trying to winnow out different types of GCF based on where they may be researching is a bit like saying a person is a little bit pregnant.

                You are either a GCF or you are not. Of course there will be nuances and differences just as there will be nuances and differences in any group of people passionate about a cause. I'm betting though that these differences will not be based around algorithms that may direct what and where material is sourced from.

                • Anker

                  It is interesting for me reading this thread between Weka, Molly and McFlock. I think you nail it Shanreagh and thank you I didn't know of the term Tu quoque, but then I never did Latin in school.

  10. swordfish 10

    .

    By no means disagree with Chris Trotter here:

    Following the 2020 General Election, the Prime Minister and her colleagues made the cardinal political mistake of forgetting who their friends were. In abstract terms, these friends were the principles of medical science and mathematics. In flesh-and-blood terms, they were the likes of Sir David Skegg, Professor Sean Hendy, Dr Michael Baker, and the irrepressible Souixsie Wiles. When the Prime Minister made the fatal decision to abandon the successful, science-based “elimination strategy”, practically all of the advisers who had guided her to victory over Covid-19 were left in the dark. Ardern and her government had committed the mortal political sin of believing their own spin: first principles – “the science” – had been abandoned for self-serving and opportunistic “politics”.

    The consequences are chillingly evident from the Ministry of Health graphs of the Delta Variant of Covid-19’s evolution since 17 August 2021. From the bell-shaped hump of the virus’s rapid advance, and then its steady retreat, under the science-guided Level 4 Lockdown, the eye moves to the terrifying exponential curve of the virus’s explosion following the politically-inspired step-down to Level 3.

    As the virus spreads like a bloodstain across the North Island, the Government’s decisions become less and less intelligible – or defensible. Having abandoned “the science” that had guided it to epidemiological and political victory, the Ardern Government flounders from one expedient, politically-driven decision to the next. A cautionary tale of first principles: embraced in the desperation of crisis; abandoned in the hubris of victory; trending inexorably towards national tragedy.

    Bowalley Road: Precautionary Principles

    • weka 10.1

      I took it to be that the spread of delta is inevitable, so they developed a new system that was the pragmatic middle ground between spread (death, disability, health system overrun) and economics, with a large degree of taking into account the restlessness of Aucklanders (and maybe the freedom protestors).

      Did Skegg etc address the 'it's inevitable' issue?

      • Poission 10.1.1

        Look at the graph,relaxing constraints mode locks the system, and the devils staircase appears.

      • AB 10.1.2

        We had two days in L4 where new daily cases in Auckland were in single figures. So there is the permanently unanswerable question of what might have happened with a couple of extra weeks of L4. I tend to think that Delta had got into a demographic that couldn't or wouldn't comply with L4 rules and the elimination strategy was effectively over.

        It had to be over at some stage though. Ideally it would have been in an environment with no Covid in the community and high vaccination rates – and been started by cautious and progressive dismantling of border restrictions. No such luck though – instead we're having to go through a messy and dangerous transition. All purist options are off the table. And there's no point looking back regretfully now – which tends to be Chris's habit.

        One thing though. Although business and the right-wing media have been demanding this opening up – the Government won't be thanked for it. The inevitable messiness of the transition will be used as another opportunity for attacking them. The elimination strategy was attacked and now the withdrawal from it is also being attacked. The people doing this are consumed by hatred of the left more than they care about how the country as a whole manages and emerges from the pandemic.

        • Gezza 10.1.2.1

          👍🏼

          Got that right. Haters gonna hate. Critics gonna criticise. Hypocrites gonna shallowly & shamelessly hypocritise. Hello National Party, meet thyself.

        • McFlock 10.1.2.2

          It really depends on whether those single digit days were because we were looking in the wrong places, and it was festering away in subcommunities that were less likely to be tested.

          Or, yeah, we could have shut the gate but not latched it, so the horse bolted at the last minute, anyway.

    • bwaghorn 10.2

      They put Auckland into level 4 again ,if that wasn't going for elimination I dont know what's is,

      Once it was in the underbelly it quickly became obvious that elimination wasn't going to happen.

    • RedLogix 10.3

      Oddly enough swordfish we both agree with this essay, but different parts of it. Lamenting the abandonment of C19 elimination, does overlook the unsustainable costs of continuing to attempt what has proven impossible anywhere else in the world. Once Delta became endemic globally – it's arrival in NZ was sadly inevitable.

      The rest of his essay however quite nicely confirms the tri-polar model I've been running with for a while now. He starts by outlining with considerable precision the nature of conservatism:

      Genuine conservatives place little store in the ability of human-beings, unconstrained by the forces of tradition, familial obligation and morality, to produce anything other than chaos and violence.

      And then goes on to contrast it with liberalism – that in the case of the ACT party unfortunately tilts over into a nuttier, narcissistic libertarianism all too often. (Maybe if they emerge from the fringes and become more mainstream, this extremism will moderate. )

      But to re-state the model – I see our political landscape resting on a moral geology of three broad strata:

      • The conservative instinct arranged around the idea of stability, hierarchy and the daily ordering of what works.
      • The liberal instinct arranged around innovation, freedom and embraces an unshakeable faith in progress.
      • And finally a social instinct that's rooted in notions of fairness, inclusion and rests all on the collective.

      While Trotter doesn't precisely break it down like this, his thinking is definitely within this framework.

      • swordfish 10.3.1

        .

        Take a look at his latest Three Waters critique:

        Vance simply passes over this brutal abrogation of New Zealand’s sovereignty, and the political facilitation it has elicited, without comment, exposing with unusual clarity the ideological bankruptcy of “woke” journalism. Vance is eloquent in her description of the racism inherent in local government’s treatment of Māori, but she has nothing at all to say about the derangement of this country’s democratic institutions at the behest of neoliberalism’s international enforcers …

        Mahuta’s strategic reticence on discussing Three Waters freely and fulsomely, along with Vance’s airy dismissal of any significant reasons for her doing so, are all of a piece. At their heart lies a deep (and not unjustified) fear that the truth will outrage sufficient New Zealanders to kill the project stone dead. This government, and its journalistic bodyguard, no longer trust the democratic system to deliver the “right” answers. Their response: to propose, and defend, a massive centralisation of power in bodies sealed-off from democratic accountability.

        This would have been a bad idea in the very best of circumstances. Pursued with the sort of ruthlessness we have witnessed in the case of Nanaia Mahuta’s Three Waters, it has turned out to be much more than a bad idea. In the minds of a growing number of frightened and angry New Zealanders Mahuta’s project is further evidence of a political project of unprecedented scale and ambition. Justified, or unjustified, in the fraught conditions imposed upon New Zealand society by the Delta incursion, the belief is growing that Labour is making plans for New Zealand. Plans that its citizens will have no opportunity to either endorse or reject.

        Bowalley Road: “Yesterday’s Controversy” – Labour Better Hope So!

        • AB 10.3.1.1

          The problem is that "this country’s democratic institutions" (as Trotter describes them) deliver control of water into the hands of the business and farming elites who dominate local body politics, especially in the provinces. And local body politics now sees sub-50% numbers for election turnout.

          It's not at all surprising therefore that the government reaches for the centralisation lever when it wants to solve the resulting problems. The risk being that four new entities are created that are ripe for later privatisation.

        • Ad 10.3.1.2

          Yes he's much better on this one.

          If I get the time I'll do something on the growth of authoritarian left government as a response both to sustained crisis and to the super-corporatised state.

    • Ad 10.4

      God he's a joke.

      A proper self-serving politics would have the government doing a "Freedom Day",

      equating free markets with freedom-to-choose anti-vaxxers,

      a subtle eyeroll whenever anyone mentioned vaccination for Maori and Pacifika higher up the prioritisation,

      going lockstep with Berejiklian and damn the healthcare consequences,

      seeking a lowest-common-denominator politics in a grand coalition with National,

      and smiling while it all burnt down.

      His version of course is to trust science to the end of time when of course scientific rationality merged with populist government generated the very worst and most damaging forms of human control of the 20th century.

      Dudes like him need to dust off Adorno and Horkheimer's Dialectic of Enlightenment. Or better, visit Nagasaki: science perfectly aligned to government.

    • Bearded Git 10.5

      Agree Swordfish. What people seem not to grasp is that dropping from l4 to L3 permitted 300,000 Aucklanders to go to work, thus ending any chance of stopping covid spread. It was always bollocks that L3 is "l4 with takeaways".

      Having said that it was never realistic to keep Covid out for ever. But we could have kept it out/eliminated it until June 2022 or even later and then opened up on our own terms.

    • Foreign Waka 10.6

      It spread because we opened the boarders to a highly contaminated state of Australia. But politics always gets in they way of facts doesn't it.

      If our so revered politicians would have waited we would not have the situation we are in. Full stop. End of story.

      Now that we have to deal with this, its best to vaccinate and join the world.

  11. Adrian 11

    Chris Trotter is bitterly disappointed, obviously unvaxxed and holding out for “ Herd Immunity “.

    • Sabine 11.1

      Have you got any reason to believe that he is un jabbed or are you just making shit up because he wrote something not nice about the government?

    • Tricledrown 11.2

      Trotter is saying Labour should have locked down the whole country until elimination. But that wouldn't have worked either as international trade and Travel would have been seriously curtailed.Delta put an end to any hopes of succeeding.it may have delayed but the balance was tipped by how much economic damage would happen we survived better than any other country in the first outbreak.

      Now we are facing a multitude of economic head winds we need our economy up and running to keep people in jobs.

      Death rates are well down on the first outbreak thanks to vaccines and better treatments ( not for everyone though)

      Chris's biggest bone of contention is Labour's abandonment of Democratic Socialism and perceived pandering to the business community. That bus left in 1984 Chris.

      As societies get older and more established the politics of that society becomes more Conservative. Politics 101 since Chris has studied political science you think he would understand the the Labour Party is a Neo Liberal party not a democratic socialist party.

  12. Sabine 12

    And file this undr

    middle aged male hoping to win the some medals as a women now that he can no longer win or expect to win easily against males much younger them him.

    https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/transgender-surfer-sasha-jane-lowerson-calls-for-more-equality-in-her-sport-ng-b882054848z?s=04

    meet deadname now that he is a women needing prompt access to the surfer glory as a women in the place of women err let me quickly correct this in the place of NON MALES https://www.perthnow.com.au/lifestyle/transgender-surfer-sasha-jane-lowerson-calls-for-more-equality-in-her-sport-ng-b882054848z?s=04

    so womanly https://www.worldsurfleague.com/athletes/9201/ryan-egan

    The poor thing must be affirmed by all non males immediatly, be included in all the non males categories immediatly, after all the poor thing spend the last 40 odd years 'caged' in this body of a male – never mind the child, the wife, the trophies., And non males better give him what he is due, lest they be accused of a non crime hate crime of misgendering him, not accepting his womanhoon, and well heck not being too happy for him to fuck up their sports category. And he is due that space in their sport at the expense of a Non Male who actually qualified on grounds of skill rather then the need for a middle aged man to continue to compete, now against people who are no match for him, cause 'fairness' Honestly what is a washed up surfer male to do when the competition gets to hard? Wear [deleted] and woman costume and go retire in the female olympics.

    Fairness, that guy does not know what fairness means.

    [please don’t use that term, it’s used to slur trans people – weka]

    • Molly 12.1

      "Fairness, that guy does not know what fairness means."

      I suspect he thinks it means pretty… wink. He is out of step even with the IOC’s (International Olympic Committee) guidelines as we speak. He does not appear to know that they are under review.

      • Sabine 12.1.1

        He don't give a fuck would be more honest.

        And with the guidlines being under revew means simply the old guidelines are still in use until the review is finished and its not said that anything will change.

        Like our own homegrown Laurel Hubbard he is simply another male wanting to play Olympian via the women because he can't cut it against younger, fitter and better males.

        Neither he nor Laurel have an iota of sportsmanship or fairness in their body.

        • Descendant Of Smith 12.1.1.1

          Yeah people confuse equality with equity.

          Equality might be about an Olympics or a surfing competition but that stuff rarely has anything to do with equity which is what is much more important.

          Salome Chimuku correctly conveyed that equity isn't about watching baseball (in response to the classic equality vs equity diagram).

          There are some good observations in here.

          "Equity is about a home. Not like a physical house but rather a home. Cause that's ore metaphorical to a sense of belonging and stuff."

          https://culturalorganizing.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/SalomePDF.pdf

      • Sabine 12.1.2

        an update on the IOC guidelines

        https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/nov/16/trans-women-should-not-have-to-reduce-testosterone-say-new-ioc-guidelines

        Transgender women should no longer be required to reduce their testosterone levels to compete in the women’s sport category, new International Olympic Committee guidelines have suggested.

        The new IOC framework, which replaces its 2015 guidelines, also concludes there should be no presumption that trans women have an automatic advantage over natal women – a controversial view that reverses the IOC’s previous position.

        Something about Equality , or Equity, or any other of such meaningless words of utter bullshittery.

    • Adrian 12.2

      Good luck trying to beat Sally Fitzgerald. Maybe Sasha-Jane could get Sally banned because..like..she’s too good..it’s not fair!!!!!

      • Sabine 12.2.1

        This guys body is 6 feet tall and weighs in at 187 lbs. He is 42 years old, and started wearing women face and women costume last year.

        So brave, so stunning, so unfair, so unsportly, and so fucking entitled. But fwiw, here you have a middle aged 42 year old white man who lived his best life so far, who can now claim oppression like there is no tomorrow and demand access to all the spaces non males have created for themselves and if they don't bow down to suck lady dick (figuratively) they will be transphobes, bigots and maybe even breaking the law for not being accommodating and affirming enough of this washed up dude.

    • weka 12.3

      mod note.

  13. Adrian 13

    In reality the science and the Government have know all along that the first 75-80 percent were going to be easy but the reluctant we’re going to be difficult, every little move at the moment is a gentle goading rather than a well deserved kick up the arse. Just look how vax rates have jumped when the Covid circus hits small towns.

  14. Adrian 14

    I agree with you on somethings Sabine but you don’t really understand taking the piss eh.

  15. Herodotus 15

    A byproduct of the Waikato being taken down to level 2 could be that by the time the Auckland boarder has been removed, COVID will have entered to a large portion of the rest of NZ and thus locals will not heap attention and blame for COVID being in their area due to Aucklanders breaking out, as it will already be there.

    • Gabby 15.1

      or even Waikato.

      • Gezza 15.1.1

        These Auckland boarders who some folk here seem to regularly speak of.

        Are they actually paying board? Who to? Or are they boarding forms of public transport? Is all public transport still operating up there?

        And do they live inside Auckland’s borders or on the fringes?

  16. Adrian 16

    Herodotus, ( my reply doesn’t work) if you have watched a few of Jacinda and co’s pronouncements there is a few hints that even if they do get out of Auckland there will be very few places that the unvaxxed may be able to visit. The organisation of the response has been pretty conservative, I don’t think things are going to change and life for the unvaxxed will be very constrained either at home or on the road if they get that far.

    • Herodotus 16.1

      Those vaxed can also catch and spread COVID and from memory in GB catching it once does not preclude catching it again . Not sure why you think that ring fencing and containing the unvaxed will keep those outside Auckland safe, and protect the rest of the country from COVID spreading?

      Just giving blood those health workers helping not sure where we would be without those who have recently made NZ their home.

  17. observer 17

    Remember those signs at the Groundswell protests, which were unashamedly racist? And the apologists insisting they were a tiny minority, the real protesters were just salt of the earth Kiwis, totes not racist eh …

    This is the Hamilton co-ordinator for the Groundswell protests.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/126999869/tatua-directors-racist-rant–he-deserved-to-lose-his-job-says-mori-leader

    (I won't link to the images he posted, they're really obnoxious, but anybody with Google/Twitter can find them easily)

  18. Gezza 18

    Judith Collins, with her complete lack of grip on reality, & her continuing propensity to burble absolute bloody nonsense, continues to be Labour’s 2nd biggest asset after Jacinda Ardern.
    ………………………..

    *”In Monday’s poll, taken in early November, just 25 per cent of voters thought Collins was doing a good job, and 57 per cent thought she was doing a bad one. Collins put this down to Labour voters who didn’t like being told they were wrong.

    “It’s very hard when you’re the opposition leader having to tell people that what they got sold at the election was a pup,” Collins said.

    “They were voting for a safe Covid response and a Government that was going to keep out the Greens and look after the economy – what they’ve found is a Government that has utterly failed.”

    Collins said voters didn’t like people who pointed this out.

    “No one wants someone to tell them that, no one likes the person who has to tell them that, that’s the way it goes.”

    “I can say the only way to change the Government is with National.”*
    …………………………..
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300456009/judith-collins-blames-ratings-drop-on-labour-voters-not-liking-being-told-they-were-wrong

  19. Tricledrown 19

    Today on stuff site 74% support vaccine mandates for the likes of educators,health workers and prison workers.

    Collins is out of touch laughable trying to boss Ardern around ironically. A one dimensional politician that is loosing on every front.

    • Gezza 19.1

      Agreed. 👍🏼

      Also losing on every front too, imo.

      She lets loose on so many issues criticising the gummint she probly doesn’t even notice when summa her criticisms are now blatantly contradictory.

      • McFlock 19.1.1

        Their target market aren't people who read and take note of things like "facts" and "contradictions".

        Tories are wannabe demagogues these days – say pleasing things at each moment, all tone no substance.

        But she can probably put one in touch with a decent source for "finished" swamp kauri table tops.

        • Gezza 19.1.1.1

          "Tories are wannabe demagogues these days – say pleasing things at each moment, all tone no substance."

          Yep. Sumpthink else (as Ardern would say) Collins is quite notable for, from my observations. Even when she goes on radio or tv to say they've announced their policy on this that or the other thing today – usually in advance of a signalled upcoming big announcement from Ardern – whenever Collins gets questionned by reporters about the detail, she's vague! 🙄

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