Open mike 16/11/2010

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 16th, 2010 - 74 comments
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74 comments on “Open mike 16/11/2010 ”

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  1. Logie97 1
    16 November 2010 at 7:02 am

    Fancy asking Rodney Hide to comment on the PM’s recommendation that the travel perk be removed. Makes Hide sounds so virtuous now.
    Reminds me of Basil Fawlty – “Ah well, I must be punished then, mustn’t I? You’re a naughty boy Fawlty! …”

  2. travellerev 2
    16 November 2010 at 7:09 am

    Kafka couldn’t have come up with this

    What is interesting is that more and more internet outlets are picking up stories about the TSA bullyboy procedures. What is even more interesting is the more left wing outlets are happy to pick stories up from right wing sites and right wing sites are happy to pick things up from the left wings sites. The only ones not picking it up are mainstream media outlets including the New Zealand ones. No surprise there.

    One of those many stories is what happened to one man when he ran foul of the new TSA pat down procedures.

    From the Raw story taken over from Prison planet this is how the land of the free, the white house on the shiny hill, the leader of the free world treats its citizens.

    And just in case you think this is a bit ripe here is another story about a three year old girl having her private parts groped.

    Here is a link to the ACLU wanting stories about this illegal and invasive “pat down procedure”. (For the right the ACLU is extreme left and for the left such as Noam Chomski the ACLU is a conservative organisation. I leave the choice to you.)

    If you think this is just for the passengers think again this is for pilots too.

    Another good example of how in the wake of 911 basic human rights (both political left and right leaning variations) are being eroded in the name of safety.

    PS. the X ray-scanners used are being sold by the a client of the Chertoff group. Chertoff as you might recall was a former Homeland Security secretary and he promoted the X Ray scanners in the wake of the underwear bombing last year.

    And just to confuse those still mired in the old left right paradigm here is a 40 minute interview from Alex Jones (evil right wing mastermind according to PB) with Naomi Wolf (no doubt considered a scary left wing feminist by many.) about the US police state. Her 10 easy steps to fascism is an excellent article (in the left leaning Guardian no less) and well worth reading

    • Pascal's bookie 2.1
      16 November 2010 at 8:03 am

      You mke some good points eve, but why the need to lie about what I have said?

      There is a long series of articles on the blog I link to below by an investigative journalist who has made a career out of following and reporting on the militia movement and it’s undercurrents. He doesn’t do melodramitic tv shows or put misleadingly edtied clips on youtube, to be sure, Instead he has studied fascism and compared how those movements have operated with what he has seen firts hand in the movements he has written books about. His particular focus has beome the transmission of far right wing propaganda into the mainstream. If you are genuinely concerned about fascism in the US, you should read it, absorb it. To better know the threat.

      http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

      Scroll down and in the left side bar you will see a series titled:

      “Rush, Newspeak and Fascism: An Exegesis”

      Please read it, particularly parts 4,5, and 6.

      His other series are also well worth investing your time in. Particularly his work on eliminationism.

      Afterall, the famous quote, that I’m sure you are famliar with says

      ” “When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag and waving a cross” ”

      ask yourself who downplays the threat of the people doing that, and calls them true patriots and says these guys are our proetctors against the liberal overreach of the federal government?

      You always tell us you are not afraid of questions. But you sure don’t seem to like mine.

      • travellerev 2.1.1
        16 November 2010 at 12:20 pm

        First you declare me guilty by association to Anti- Semitism and now you accuse me of lying. Tell me again why I should be interested in your questions?

        Here’s a tip. Fascism never starts at the grass roots. Cruelty, Ignorance, Racism, Fear (you seem to be quit familiar with that one), yes but Fascism is an altogether different beast. Fascism is better described as corporatism. (Mussolini) It is when corporations and the government are inseparable and rule as one. It’s a top down totalitarian control mechanism.

        That is the ruling elite rules absolutely over the population. How? One way is to hijack populist movements. Beck Ruch are paid (and paid handsomely) to do just that. Another shill is Jon Steward on the left side. Playing them against each other and voila control. False flag operations such as the Reichtag fire are also much loved tools to start a totalitarian state coupled with fear and bullying by dumb thugs given positions of power work really well.

        By the way I just remembered something very sad. If you recall we invited Richard Gage over to speak in Wellington te Papa museum. Well guess who he met there under condition of total anonymity? One of the few people here I actually think uses her brain. A wonderful lady whom I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and emailing with on the subject of 911. Jeanette Fitzsimmons. She actually met with Richard Gage for an hour and after wards signed up on the politicians for 911 truth site were she shares a wish for a new and independent investigation into the events of 911 with ex US congress woman Cynthia McCinny and other assorted politicians from all over the world and I might add from all over the political spectrum.

        The same Cynthia McCinny by the way who had a really interesting confrontation with one of the prime suspects in the 911 attacks, a man going by the name of Donald Rumsfeld, on the evening before the attacks about a little matter of $ 2.3 trillion dollars gone missing from the Pentagon books. Cynthia is also the Green candidate for US presidency and an ardent fighter for Palestinian rights. Someone who literally puts her body on the line for what she believes in.

        I wonder why Jeanette would feel the need for such secrecy. Could it be that she doesn’t feel the need to expose herself to the howling derision from her so called leftist mates?

        If you really want to know how red necks feel (The Appalachian kind) here is the facebook page of one of my facebook friends Joe Bageant. You will find he is a really nice guy who actually responds when you contact him if he feels like it. I think I actually got an invite to visit him if I ever get to Mexico. He may not be totally sober when he responds though because like most Appalachians he has a healthy liking for Moonshine.

        If you care more for the leftist 911 truther you might find that your preference another of my facebook friends a staunch socialist lecturer Michael Parenti. He has some really cool lectures about false flag attacks and especially 911. No doubt in his mind about that one.

        Interest PB is not the same as fear. You give me good reason to respect you and refrain from nasty swipes and accusations and you will find me ready to communicate. Juvenile tantrums and accusational challenges do not garner respect. Your choice.

        • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1.1
          16 November 2010 at 12:53 pm

          trav, I have repeatedly explained what I was doing with the link that offended you. I have never said that Alex Jones is an “evil right wing mastermind”. Your accusations are not true.

          Coporatism does not mean quite what you think it means. Fascism doesn’t need to hijack populist movements, it is a populist movement.

          Frankly, I’m done with trying to talk sense to you. You just ignore and misinterpret everything I say and accuse me of things that I explicitly have not done.

          Juvenile tantrums and accusational challenges do not garner respect.

          Take an honest look at our conversations and tell me you are not the worse offender.

          I’m out.

          • The Baron 2.1.1.1.1
            16 November 2010 at 1:50 pm

            Aw man I was looking forward to another crazy flame war between you two.

          • travellerev 2.1.1.1.2
            16 November 2010 at 4:30 pm

            What’s so funny is that you think you are so important that I was actually referring to you (Ego much). I was talking about quite a few people over here and elsewhere . He’s very controversial don’t you know.

            You’re so vain, you probably think this song is about you don’t you, don’t you. LOL.

            Saying a link I put here is the same as your link with a coating of political correctness and out comes a Anti-Semitic piece of filth you tell me that that is what my link represents to you. Insinuating that in reality that is what I advocate only I’m hiding it behind a PC veil.

            That is different to saying “let me give you an example of how extreme some groups in the US are here is a link.”
            I could have responded with a yep, that’s how bad it gets and thank God I don’t have anything to do with those groups. Catch my drift?

            “However fascism’s corporatism was a top-down model of state control

            More about >fascism in the USA and here the ten easy steps toward Fascism from Naomi Wolf.

            Will there be peasants, militia’s or leftists who love Fascism? Ask the Germans and the Italians and while you’re at it the Spanish, hell even the Dutch had a fascist party cooperating with the Germans. Lots of tar and feathers after the war. There are always some who love to live in a totalitarian society but it’s not the Alex Jones’s of this world or the Ventura’s or the Militia’s for that matter. The Jones’s and Ventura’s and the Wolf’s because they are to smart and some of the militia’s because they are to pigheaded or stupid, take your pick. As I said cruelty, ignorance, racism and fear are a plenty at all levels and all places in society, even here but it’s not Fascism.

            And no I don’t twist everything you say. I just refuse to be bullied by you or anyone taking an easy pot-shot. You want to beat me in debate mate, get your act together and start using your real brain not the easy one, two, five bully tactics you use with your mates.

            • The Baron 2.1.1.1.2.1
              16 November 2010 at 4:58 pm

              Christ Eve, he isn’t bullying you – he is disagreeing with you and pointing out others that share your views.

              That doesn’t mean you are anything or think anything, or that you are being bullied.It simply means someone else has an opinion on what you are saying. Surely they are allowed to express that without you bullying them – which is frankly what you have been doing with your continual unjustified attacks on PB.

              Seriously, get a grip.You’ve fundamentally destroyed any value in your argument by being such a shrill melodramatic mess.

              • travellerev …
                16 November 2010 at 7:59 pm

                Baron,

                In all this time I haven’t once seen you add a sensible comment to to this site other then a bit of trolling so could you please go an fuck yourself somewhere else.

                [lprent: Ah, stepping on the prerogatives of the moderators is treading quite dangerously to an edge. We are jealous minor deities. I certainly haven’t noticed Baron while I’ve been doing moderation sweeps. ]

                • higherstandard …
                  16 November 2010 at 8:18 pm

                  go AND fuck yourself

                • Armchair Critic …
                  16 November 2010 at 9:47 pm

                  Well there’s a classic example of attempted bullying if ever I saw one.
                  Eve, seriously, I used to have time for your POV. Your comments were challenging and thought provoking, your links were worth following.
                  These days I’m surprised anyone bothers engaging with you.

                  • travellerev …
                    16 November 2010 at 11:08 pm

                    Armchair critic,

                    You’re kidding right?

                    • Maynard J …
                      18 November 2010 at 12:22 am

                      Na, I’m with AC. Every time someone disagrees with you, go go at them hammer & tongs: You don’t understand me! You’re bullying me! Read my links and then you’ll KNOW I’m right. There is NO WAY I could be wrong! is all someone will get from trying to engage with you.

                      You’re more intorlerant of dissent than any of the righties on this site.

                      You could provide useful contributions if you learned to engage with other people. It’s a shame you choose to play the persecution card instead every time someone critiques you.

                • travellerev …
                  17 November 2010 at 9:34 am

                  Not intended as overstepping the prerogative, Iprent. I know the rules. Just a frustrated exclamation. S’all.

            • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1.1.2.2
              16 November 2010 at 7:04 pm

              Glad you found some info on corporatism. Perhaps now you see that while fascism is corporatist, it is not synonomous with it. It is not legitimate to say that ‘Fascism is better described as corporatism’.

              Corporatism is but one part of fascist movements, not always present, and not the defining feature of fascism, (in that there are many other forms of corporatist systems that aren’t fascist, as per your link).

              As for this:

              What’s so funny is that you think you are so important that I was actually referring to you (Ego much). I was talking about quite a few people over here and elsewhere . He’s very controversial don’t you know.

              You’re so vain, you probably think this song is about you don’t you, don’t you. LOL.

              I assume that this is you being the change you want to see, and not acting like a juvenile.

              From what I can make out this is inresponse to my quoting this:

              “evil right wing mastermind”

              Obviously I was vain to think you were claiming that it was I who had described Alex Jones this way. Perhaps I was led astray by the fuller quote, available both to those who take the care to scroll up, and repeated here for convenience:

              “And just to confuse those still mired in the old left right paradigm here is a 40 minute interview from Alex Jones (evil right wing mastermind according to PB)

              Perhaps PB refers to Paula Bennett. Has she weighed in on the thread. I know we were talking about this yesterday, and I am regularly called ‘PB’ here, indeed I suspect you called me that yesterday. So perhaps you might see why I thought it was a reference to me. But I’d be all ears to hear what ‘PB’ means in that quote, given it wasn’t aimed at me.

              I withdraw the accusation that you lied about me saying that Alex Jones is an evil right wing mastermind, conditional on an explanation of what the hell you otherwise meant.

              • travellerev …
                16 November 2010 at 9:46 pm

                Sensitive much. My bad. I made an honest mistake. Talk about paranoia.

                If you put half as much energy in actually reading some of the links and looking at them with an open mind you’d be halfway getting there.

                It was a direct quote from Mussolini: I reckon he knew what he was talking about.

                Also what always seriously lacks in all these stories is how much big money (from big Corporations and Wall street Banksters) invest in redirecting and hijacking populist movements you’d know that they have a vested interest in using the lowest common denominator to get what they want a Totalitarian top down regime. That is what Fascism is.

                Tea party= Koch brothers, the bigest corporation you never heard of and who knows who else. With Glenn Beck firmly in their pocket and Murdoch happily piping their Propaganda. Nothing Grass roots about it.
                National Socialismus=Financed by Krupp Stahl, Thyssen, Brown Harriman (Bush family), Warburg (Representing several of the richest Wallstreet bankers)

                The Bush Family amongst others made shit loads of money of the steelworks in Germany during the war with labour from the Auschwitz death camp just as they are doing now from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sort of shows a pattern doesn’t it?

                So get of your high horse and start educating yourself because even with all your self-righteous shite you have not been able to refute a single thing I’ve brought up.

                In fact, like a little child, you’ve been trying to detract from the fact that contrary to your and TVOR there are plenty of highly intelligent left wingers with me on the 911 issue. Not in NZ of course here they bully their leaders into silence (see Jeanette) instead of asking serious questions about what happened that day) in the meantime in the last 24 hours another five soldiers died in Afghanistan, in the last couple of weeks the oldest Christian community in Iraq was attacked after 2000 years of peaceful cohabitation with the locals and we are on the verge of attacking Iran and the two wars have bankrupted the US while the Haliburtons of this world are laughing al the way to the bank. All because we bought the 911 crap and people like you are to cowardly and stupid to take another look.

              • prism …
                16 November 2010 at 10:01 pm

                Interesting stuff PB. It is good to read your thoughtful and informed comment. However I hope it won’t get drowned in others’ verbiage.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2
        16 November 2010 at 4:00 pm

        Has that one in an updated PDF. Reading it ATM.

        • nzfp 2.1.2.1
          16 November 2010 at 4:35 pm

          Hey Draco,
          Who is this guy?

          because my experience was that in most regards many of these folks were seemingly ordinary people. And I was furthermore intrigued by the historical phenomenon of the Holocaust, particularly the problem of how a nation full ordinary people could allow such a monstrosity to happen

          Holocausts happen all the time everywhere. According to Tariana Turia – a holocaust happened right here in New Zealand. The response from New Zealand MP’s as well as the Auckland Jewish Council is interesting too. It seems the word is reserved.

          However the authors words peaked my interest, is he suggeting that Britain and the United States are fascist – especially considering the holocausts of Bangladesh, India (British) Vietnam, Cambodia (US), Afghanistan and Iraq (Britain and the US)?

          • Pascal's bookie 2.1.2.1.1
            16 November 2010 at 4:54 pm

            It’s David Neiwert, and he is referring to the jewish holocaust, and no, he isn’t saying that any instance of a holocaust equals fascism. Read the article. He spends several thousand words defining what fascism is, drawing on a hell of a lot of research looking at the commonalities that exist on the ground in the various regimes that are commonly described as fascist.

            • Pascal's bookie 2.1.2.1.1.1
              16 November 2010 at 5:20 pm

              Sorry for the grumpy tone here nzfp.

              • nzfp …
                16 November 2010 at 7:04 pm

                No Problem PB – you’re putting me straight – that’s cool,
                However, if he were to equate the two – I would fully agree with him. The British East India company was most certainly fascist. I would argue that the regime in control of the US is fascist too (former Goldman Sachs employees as well as Big Oil/Food/Military lobbyists holding major government positions) and to some extent so to is modern Britain – hence Gordon Brown’s use of anti-Terrorism laws to crush Iceland in order to attempt to secure refunds for the failed private Icelandic Banks – not to mention the destruction of the formerly most advanced country in the Middle East – Iraq – to boost oil profits.

                So maybe fascism and holocausts don’t go hand in hand – but they do seem to follow each other around. The Irish holocaust (famine) happened when Ireland was a net exporter of food – profits for the British land owners. Then there’s the Jewish states white phosphorous holocaust of 1400 Palestinians – a third of whom were children – in Palestine during the Israeli invasion of Gaza 2008/2009… and so on and so on…

                • Pascal's bookie …
                  16 November 2010 at 8:31 pm

                  I guess the problem I have with describing modern US or the British empire as fascist, is that to do so seems to broaden the definition too far. It seems, at least to me, to be saying that any state that does a lot of really bad things that fascists also did, is fascist.

                  The definition is already slippery enough as it is :). To take Spain under Franco, Nazi Germany and Mussolini’s Italy as the classic fascist states we already have some pretty striking differences in how the fascist states look and operate.

                  Italy was more corporatist than Germany and didn’t have the same degree of racial theory, Spain had stronger links to the church and the formal, (though delayed), acceptance of the Monarchy. But there are similarities in terms of how they came to power. The narratives they used if you like. Each nation, if you like, produced it’s variant of fascism based on the culture in took root in.

                  Fascism seems to be about nationalism of a very purist sort. It’s not just the nation first, but a certain version of the nation. Only certain ideas are acceptable for ‘citizens’ to hold. To not think right, to not have the right idea about what the nation is, is to be a traitor. This is why democracy is rejected. It is not just ‘not needed’ or ‘inconvenient’. It is illegitimate. It allows for treason to flourish.

                  Same thing with (small l) liberalism, and intellectualism. These things are inherently suspicious within fascist thought in a way that they are not in other states. For all of the USSR’s multitude of fucking sins, they maintained a closed, but still intellectual pursuit of what they were about. The fascists don’t. They have no time for airy headed philosophising about what fascism means or aims. It just is, and it does. It’s about action, not thought. The theorising that does go on tends towards propaganda on the one hand, and works designed to show the magnificence and superiority of the nation.

                  If a fascist loses an election, so what? The electoral process is only legitimate to a fascist insofar as it endorses a fascist government. If they lose, it is not because the nation disagrees with them. How could it, their ideas define the purist essence of what the nation is. Ipso facto, the nation cannot disagree with them unless it has been corrupted. By whom? weak minded liberals who care not for the nation, foreigners, intellectuals, elites, and internationalists, electoral fraud on the behalf if impurities within the nation. In short, traitors.

                  In the US, fascism would be based around US myths, just as the other variants are based around their nations myths. Thus it will be ‘wrapped in the flag’ and ‘holding a cross’, and I’d add to that, saying it would have the one true understanding of the constitution. They would claim that the country’s problems are the fault of too much liberalism and intellectual adventurism imported from abroad, that the nation is in terminal decline because it has abandoned it’s essence. That its institutions have betrayed it, and that there must be a transformational restoration to restore her greatness.

                  That sort of thing.

                  • Bill …
                    16 November 2010 at 9:19 pm

                    “Thus it will be ‘wrapped in the flag’ and ‘holding a cross’, and I’d add to that, saying it would have the one true understanding of the constitution. They would claim that the country’s problems are the fault of too much liberalism and intellectual adventurism imported from abroad, that the nation is in terminal decline because it has abandoned it’s essence. That its institutions have betrayed it, and that there must be a transformational restoration to restore her greatness.”

                    Kind of like ‘Patriots’ embracing a conservative Christianity and accusing liberalism and liberals of not upholding the constitution and threatening the very foundation of American Society with their anti-American drive to introduce big state socialism thereby necessitating that Patriots step in with their anti-anti Americanism to halt the terminal decline

            • travellerev 2.1.2.1.1.2
              16 November 2010 at 7:53 pm

              If you are referring to the Jewish Holocaust it’s with a capital H.

              • nzfp …
                16 November 2010 at 9:30 pm

                Trav and PB,

                Jewish Holocaust

                Were there just Jews in those camps?

                While you’re at it:
                1. How many people were killed due to hostilities between 1939 and 1945?
                2. How many German POW’s died between 1945 and 1946?
                3. How many German civilians died between 1945 and 1950?
                4. In fact how many people in Europe were killed because of hostilities between 1914 and 1950 – a 36 year period – what percentage of the total European population did it represent?

                I know the answers to the first three and have a fair idea of the last one – but it’s an interesting exercise when considering holocausts.

                I became interested in the subject in 2004 when Tariana Turia was heavily criticised – by Helen Clark in particular, as well as other NZ politicians and the Auckland Jewish Council – for using the Waitangi Tribunals assertion that the experience of Taranaki Maori was a holocaust and broadening it to include the wider Maori communities experience under British colonisation.

                There is no monopoly on the term holocaust – genocide does not belong to any one group. At one stage or another it could be argued that every human community has experienced a holocaust. Suffering is universal and should never be monopolised.

                • travellerev …
                  16 November 2010 at 11:34 pm

                  Hi nzfp,

                  I found the most comprehensive mapping of victims on this page
                  What is most shocking is that every time I check the figures are higher. A year ago the total was 60.000.000 deaths give or take.now it is between 60 and 80 million. of those the Holocaust or mass murder of the Jews was some 5.7 million.

                  I agree with you on the holocaust issue and how it should not be monopolised I was just glib when I said the Jewish Holocaust needs a capital H.

                  Here is a link to a video on Gilad Atzmon’s (in itself a very good site) site about Israel made by Jews about the falsification of history and the inherent anti Semitism in Zionism.

                  Almost six million Jews were killed merely because they were Jewish so there is no denying that and that and it’s truly horrific but how it was used by Zionists is an other thing altogether.

                  • nzfp …
                    17 November 2010 at 9:37 am

                    Hey Trav,

                    I was just glib

                    Sorry mate,
                    Its easy to get caught out without “emphasis” in a forum like this. I’m sure half of the flame wars happen because people misconstrue sarcasm, humour, glib, etc…

                    Yeah Gilad Atzmon is something else – articulate and insightful author – his music isn’t bad either.

                    As for the Zionists use of the Holocaust to justify the occupation, oppression and murder of indigenous people – what can I see – except that it doesn’t appear to be about Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Instead it bears the hallmarks of the last classic European hegemony, colonisation and expansionism.

                    The same colonisation experienced by South African Blacks, NZ Maori as well as indigenous peoples all around the world.

                    Maybe that’s why Israel was one of Whites Only Apartheid South Africa’s closest allies – who developed nuclear weapons with Whites Only Apartheid South Africa and attempted to sell nuclear weapons as well as chemical and biological weapons to Whites Only Apartheid South Africa – until the election of Nelson Mandela.

              • nzfp …
                16 November 2010 at 10:20 pm

                The Taranaki Report – Kaupapa Tuatahi CHAPTER 12, CONCLUSIONS: 12.3.3 Size of claims (Page 6):
                “the raupatu without ending describe the holocaust of Taranaki history”

  3. The Chairman 3
    16 November 2010 at 7:49 am

    The report doesn’t bond well with the Governments plans to get the sick into work.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4347652/Cost-of-sick-staff-could-be-13b-report

    • Jenny 3.1
      16 November 2010 at 11:19 am

      The bean counters have taken over the asylum.

      So people get sick and become less productive. I would have thought that that was pretty much stating the obvious.

      Spending tax payers money trying to quantify how much imaginary wealth these sick people could have provided for their employers if they had been perfectly well, seems to me to be bordering on lunacy.

      Workers are human, ipso facto, sometimes they get sick. It is part of the human condition.

      Getting a government department to quantify this imaginary loss is lunacy, I expect very soon not only a study of how much imaginary wealth could have been generated by sick people if they had been well, but of dead people if they had been alive.

      On the same trajectory but with more probability, Treasury’s next study will be on trying to quantify how much profit could be generated if people didn’t retire. I can see the next Treasury study releasing their determination on how many billions are lost by not raising the retirement age to 70.

      Maybe a better study would be on how much money would be saved for the tax payer if all these loonies were sacked.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1
        16 November 2010 at 1:21 pm

        The ridiculousness of the suggestions put before us in these reports merely confirms the same fact over and over again: they have absolutely no idea how to resolve some of the difficult challenges facing us, let alone collect the leadership required to start.

        • nzfp 3.1.1.1
          16 November 2010 at 4:18 pm

          they have absolutely no idea how to resolve some of the difficult challenges facing us

          Nah… They know all right. They know damn well how to fix the economy – but it will cost them and their banker mates a lot of power and money to give us economic and political democracy. They would rather pretend they don’t know what they are doing or that they honestly believe what they are doing is in our interest. To admit otherwise, is to admit they are ripping us off for their own benefit. Something many of us here know all too well (you too ;)).

          They know!

  4. Pascal's bookie 4
    16 November 2010 at 8:26 am

    Some interesting forgotten history, and the attempts to preserve it:

    http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2010/11/note-to-democrats-remember-where-you.html

    http://www.friendsofblairmountain.org/

    Blair Mountain was the site of a battle in the early 20th century between coal mine owners and the govt on the one side, and the unions on’t other. The unionists wore red bandanners round their necks, and that is, as some tell it, where the term redneck came from. In the appalachians that is.

    • Bill 4.1
      16 November 2010 at 10:36 am

      Nice links PB. Maybe occasional posts reminding us of our buried history are warranted? Meanwhile, in line with your comment and just so that we remember here’s a link to the Lawrence Mill Workers strike….Bread and Roses

      A member of the Philadelphia Women’s Committee testified under oath:

      When the time came to depart, the children, arranged in a long line, two by two in an orderly procession with the parents near at hand, were about to make their way to the train when the police . . . closed in on us with their clubs, beating right and left with no thought of the children who then were in desperate danger of being trampled to death. The mothers and the children were thus hurled in a mass and bodily dragged to a military truck and even then clubbed, irrespective of the cries of the panic-stricken mothers and children. We can scarcely find words with which to describe this display of brutality.

      • Pascal's bookie 4.1.1
        16 November 2010 at 11:39 am

        I only found out about the battle of Blair Mountain when watching a history chanel doco on hillbillies hosted by, of all people, Billy Ray Cyrus.

        Almost didn’t watch it on account of the potential for fucking stupid, but figured that since his performing career seemed to be over, then maybe he might give good insight to actual mountain music. Which he did.

  5. Tigger 5
    16 November 2010 at 8:39 am

    Is it my imagination or have Granny Herald’s interwebs pages begun running really smarmy, goofy shots of Key.

    I mean here they’re lauding Key for ‘trying to get rid of perks’ but the shot of him looks like someone’s just given him a TSA pat-down. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10687883

    Here Armstrong is giving Key a medal but the shot of him makes him look like he’s lost control of his motor functions. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=10687283

    Another perk article – another unflattering shot of our PM. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10687789

    Now of course, one might argue that Key always looks smarmy and that looking goofy comes naturally…but choosing those shots to go with serious pieces strikes me as kind of odd. Unless, the conspiracist in me says, they trying to make him appear ‘average Joe’… The less of the people he appears the more they seem to be turning him into a clown (ie. someone harmless). Unfortunately there are those who understand that clowns are inherently malignant…after all clowns never show you their real face.

  6. Tigger 6
    16 November 2010 at 9:11 am

    I’ve been looking for reasons to dump Westpac once our mortgage comes up for renewal. Thanks guys, you just gave me the kicker. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/4348590/Westpacs-55-million-woman

    How is any wage-slave worth that much? Does she work non-stop? When she does number twos does gold come out? Another sign of the apocaplyse I’m afraid…

    • just saying 6.1
      16 November 2010 at 9:51 am

      I can recommend kiwibank, and Taranaki SB is supposed to be pretty damn good too.

      I was delighted when I finally gave Westpac the finger a few years ago. It really is a teensy bit like divorcing an objectionable spouse.

  7. joe90 7
    16 November 2010 at 9:25 am

    Someone has managed to keep these photos of Bush very quiet. Pissed at the Olympics.

    • ianmac 7.1
      16 November 2010 at 9:47 am

      Have a chat with Tigger at item 5. Haha.

    • freedom 7.2
      16 November 2010 at 9:51 am

      they were seen at the time, but only fleetingly on MSM, apart from the one where he is sitting in the crowd and Barbs is giving him the evils.
      They lasted about twenty hours before the ‘fail to load’, ‘server busy’ and the ‘page not found’ messages consistently appeared. All text articles began to be re-edited also with MSM references to his being drunk replaced with his ‘feeling unwell due to the heat’

      but there was also some video of the period where the Secret Service guys had to carry him out and fuck it was funny, they basically dropped him twice and he had no ability to stand on his own

  8. prism 8
    16 November 2010 at 9:40 am

    Further on reverse equity mortgages. Heard on radio this a.m. that in the Netherlands it is referred to as ‘eating one’s house’. A good name for them would be ‘gingerbread house’ mortgages eh! That name would indicate a warning about danger inherent in the practice and the wicked wizards who are willing to harm you rather than help you.

    The idea is to try and get a regular mortgage high enough to get some of the equity and within bounds of the repayments possible on income. One family, of two children, is paying the interest of $7.50 each per week so Mum has the money to visit distant family.

    • Lanthanide 8.1
      16 November 2010 at 12:04 pm

      Alternatively, if the mid-long term future pans out as we expect re: oil, a reverse mortgage with cash up-front now, in exchange for a steeply devalued/deflated house in the future might be worth it. You can screw the bankers at their game given the right circumstances.

  9. just saying 9
    16 November 2010 at 9:45 am

    http://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/

    Phil Goff’s Man

    From the blog ‘Against the Current’ a critique of Fa’afoi’s candidacy in Mana.

    If Labour gets its arse kicked with a significant decrease in its share of the vote in the by-election, it only has itself to blame. Even if (unlikely I know), it loses the seat.
    I believe it’s important for the whole left movement that Labour’s leadership does get an electric-cattle-prod-where-it-hurts-most reminder that is no longer acceptable for Labour to be ‘National Lite’.

    • Tigger 9.1
      16 November 2010 at 9:49 am

      The MSM has been practically campaigning against Fa’afoi. A decrease in the vote could just as easily reflect that as the choice of candidate.

      • freedom 9.1.1
        16 November 2010 at 9:54 am

        his own campaign has been a shocker though, stupid statements to endear himself as a local.

        people are collectively stupid but independantly smart, and telling the truth about who you are and where you come from is a lot better than colouring in the sky a bright blue when it is raining

      • grumpy 9.1.2
        16 November 2010 at 11:44 am

        Fa’afoi has been campaigning against Fa’afoi

        • freedom 9.1.2.1
          16 November 2010 at 12:06 pm

          and then Goff comes out saying Nats might win,
          isnt it politics101 never to admit your opposition has any chance of success?

          then the other day Turia says she supports both Parata and McCarten,
          there is the repeated use of urgency and all the unchallenged voting in parliament,

          some wierd stuff is going on

          • Fisiani 9.1.2.1.1
            16 November 2010 at 12:46 pm

            Phil is just trying to talk away the shame and embarrassment of a heavily reduced majority. Word about town is that they expect to drop from 6,100 majority to about 2,500 majority. Still a healthy majority but a kick in the teeth. After all Phil declared that the Mana by election would give National a bloody nose.

            • felix 9.1.2.1.1.1
              16 November 2010 at 12:54 pm

              But as you insist that John Key is our Greatest PM Ever, and that the whole country is delighted with everything the National Govt does, surely Hekia should win in a landslide.

              Right Fizzy? Or don’t you believe your own hype?

              • Fisiani …
                16 November 2010 at 1:20 pm

                You obviously know nowt lix about maths or history.
                Mana is a solid red seat. Put a red ribbon on a donkey and it would win.
                No government has EVER won a by election from an opposition party in NZ history.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  16 November 2010 at 1:24 pm

                  NATs are in for a hiding. So to speak. Hence trying to drop expectations now despite solid campaigning effort and time from Key et al.

                  • Fisiani …
                    16 November 2010 at 1:31 pm

                    And your definition of a hiding is a Labour majority in excess of 6,100 I take it.
                    Nah. Doubt it. Kris’s majority will be probably halved or more.

                    • felix …
                      16 November 2010 at 2:33 pm

                      No, that’s your definition Fizzy.

                      But then you’re the one who says Key is the greatest PM ever and the whole nation is behind him so I don’t think your definitions amount to squat.

                • Armchair Critic …
                  16 November 2010 at 1:34 pm

                  No government has EVER won a by election from an opposition party in NZ history.
                  Except for when the Reform government (1912 to 1928) won the seat of Auckland East on 2 November 1921 (about two-thirds of the way through the 20th Parliament), when their candidate (Clutha MacKenzie) won the seat after the Liberal Party’s Arthur Myers resigned.
                  Which is not to say Labour won’t win Mana, history indicates it is very likely. It is to say your quoted statement is wrong.

                • r0b …
                  16 November 2010 at 1:42 pm

                  No government has EVER won a by election from an opposition party in NZ history.

                  You’ve been corrected on that lie before, and still you repeat it.

                  • lprent …
                    16 November 2010 at 1:49 pm

                    Fizzy does not appear to be that bright. He is retentive though (anally?). Once a idea is hammered in, then he never seems to forget it.

                  • freedom …
                    16 November 2010 at 2:03 pm

                    i thought i was having another flashback

                    • Tigger …
                      16 November 2010 at 3:03 pm

                      Now Harawira is out supporting McCarten. The MSM and all govt parties have been effectively campaigning against Faa’foi from two sides – Parata and McCarten. Any drop in vote isn’t just about Goff’s choice, there’s been a coordinated effort to drub Labour. Mother Teresa would be getting drubbed if she’d been picked instead of Faa’foi…

  10. felix 10
    16 November 2010 at 11:00 am

    Interesting chat with Metiria Turei on Willie Jackson’s show yesterday, it’s online here: http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Audio/tabid/109/Default.aspx (You have to select the clips from Monday’s dropdown menu, starts about 2:10 PM)

  11. ianmac 11
    16 November 2010 at 11:03 am

    In the Press today STEVE LIDDLE looks at the present clash of expectations in education and advocates a different perspective, with an adapted Nordic-country model. This has implications for Education and for Commerce:
    “Finland achieved its top-of- the-table success through a primrose path begun in the 1950s – with economists convincing politicians an emphasis on educational spending in hard times was key to genuine growth, comparative advantage and social services provision.”

    “And the Finnish answer to countries turning to market- driven reforms of the 1980s and 1990s – reforms involving intensified testing, greater accountability on teachers, and increased competition – was to continue with their solution: building a strong professional foundation for teachers.”

    “Layard’s research concludes that targets, incentives and performance- related pay are not the best way of running public services or companies; rather a fulfilling job, allowing for more pride in work, challenge and autonomy, is its best reward and the best motivator. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/perspective/4348084/Treasure-teachers-to-get-best-results

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      16 November 2010 at 11:27 am

      targets, incentives and performance- related pay are not the best way of running public services or companies; rather a fulfilling job, allowing for more pride in work, challenge and autonomy, is its best reward and the best motivator. ”

      Yeah the Righties can’t seem to get it into their heads that for most people financial remuneration forms only 30% of their motivation to do a job well. And that’s at most.

      Management science has known this for years, don’t know why the Right are so slow on the uptake.

      • ianmac 11.1.1
        16 November 2010 at 12:01 pm

        It has been estimated that the glow of a pay rise lasts about 3 days and usually gets absorbed into daily spending anyway.
        A friend took over the management of a business and steadily turned it into a flat management structure. Everyone including the floor sweeper was encouraged to participate in decision making. A plan was agreed to and a time limit set for review. The staff were eager to stay and very reluctant to retire.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.2
        16 November 2010 at 12:32 pm

        Management science has known this for years, don’t know why the Right are so slow on the uptake.

        Because they’re too busy projecting their own greed onto others.

        • prism 11.1.2.1
          16 November 2010 at 9:18 pm

          It is taught in business classes but it seems that most of ideas about workers being involved in decision making and also sharing in bonuses for good results aren’t utilised in the real world.

  12. Tigger 12
    16 November 2010 at 11:44 am

    Key says he’s happy for no increase to salary to offset perk loss.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4347683/Key-happy-for-MPs-to-get-nothing-for-perks

    Well of course he’s not, he isn’t losing anything because he’s rich (I’ve always wondered how much of his dirty work is being paid out of his personal bank account).

    • Pascal's bookie 12.1
      16 November 2010 at 11:59 am

      If he wants to change the rules the Remuneration Authority acts under, good on him. If not, he’s just washing his hands.

    • Lanthanide 12.2
      16 November 2010 at 12:11 pm

      My favourite was this little gem:

      Key said other allowances like the accommodation perk “haven’t been so much a bone of contention”.

      Changes made earlier to the ministerial accommodation allowance after controversy over housing allowances paid to Finance Minister Bill English and others had “for the most part seem to have bedded themselves down” and were seen to be fair and equitable.

      “But as I said yesterday this may be the time now for us to look at the wider issue of entitlements and whether an independent body should be solely responsible for that.”

      Essentially this boils down to: if the media aren’t talking about it, obviously the public are ok with it.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.3
      16 November 2010 at 4:10 pm

      Well, that’s what he says but his actions say otherwise.

      The National Party today blocked a motion in Parliament to set up an independent review of MPs expenses and entitlements.

      Oh, and in QT he “implicitly admits he doesn’t expect his Ministers to be honest” (Quoting tweet by I/S)

  13. Vicky32 13
    16 November 2010 at 6:03 pm

    TV3 campaigning for Hekia Parata, of course.. with a particular animus against Faafoi and McCarten…
    Typical, but still disgusting (Patrick Gower, so I ought not to be surprised. What a git!)

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