Open mike 16/11/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, November 16th, 2014 - 96 comments
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Step up to the mike …

96 comments on “Open mike 16/11/2014 ”

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  2. les 2
    16 November 2014 at 7:45 am

    the Kiwis broke a 61 year drought of beating the Kangaroos back to back.Now retain the Rugby League World Cup they won 4 years ago.Thanks John!

    • Marksman33 2.1
      16 November 2014 at 8:10 am

      Excellent Les, I am elated, way to go boys.

    • Murray Rawshark 2.2
      16 November 2014 at 4:09 pm

      They should win the Halberg Awards, but as usual, the team award will probably go to the ABs under Captain Key, who showed great physical and moral courage to beat the Leichenstein 2nd XV by a record margin. Or maybe Max’s softball team. I’m pretty sure that the TPPA will compel Halberg to consider American teams. Sport as hegemony. FJK.

      • les 2.2.1
        18 November 2014 at 7:12 am

        I was mistaken it was not the WC!It was the 4 Nations…same teams feature regardless.Aussie coach will be sacked I expect.

  3. greywarshark 3
    16 November 2014 at 9:00 am

    I am enraged. Listening to Kim Campbell on Radionz in an Insight piece on the dreadful conditions of low-paid workers, he used the dodge technique in his comment. Instead of speaking to the question he swung away to the outrageous excuse that ‘we are no-where near to sending little boys up chimneys’.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20157262
    Insight for 16 November 2014 – Flexibility and Employment Laws ( 27′ 56″ )
    08:12 Patrick O’Meara examines the new labour laws and what they mean for firms and workers

    The employers association is disgraceful and unworthy of any respect. Phil O’Reilly with his usual flannel about how fair the whole arrangement is. The flexibility works both ways, people can have Monday and Tuesday off and work weekends if it suits. Then playing the thoughtful caring role and saying that workers are so busy and life is difficult and this flexibility will help.

    Yet some people are on contracts with no set hours, some can be working full-time and have their hours go to zero. How can you live in those circumstances? Also you dare not ask for anything, or complain because the hours are arbitrary, the supervisor can take against you and not give you any. If you are off sick, you must take in your medical certificate or you won’t be given any work in the future. Employers can walk away from negotiations on collective agreements, then while one is not current, they can employ on individual contracts. The unions are constrained in their powers to assist workers, and then the workers can’t afford to pay fees and they are seen as not being able to deliver the help and support they should be providing.
    Oh and the GFC was invoked, the businesses are struggling.

    This is what work? life was like in the Depression. And Reilly has the gall to say in his pleasant, encouraging way that this is all necessary and, with a veiled threat, if there was any kickback from the unions or workers, serious employment controls would be invoked. Yet demands for attendance immediately can be made right now, and workers are virtually enslaved. WINZ lack of support for needy people underpin the situation.

    How can NZs vote for National with this going on? There is no concern for others and no spirit of pride in NZ as a country with fair standards and respect for all.
    edited

    • idlegus 3.1
      16 November 2014 at 10:36 am

      +100!

    • Ad 3.2
      16 November 2014 at 10:42 am

      That vote shows how very deep the Left’s electoral trouble is

    • Draco T Bastard 3.3
      16 November 2014 at 11:10 am

      Oh and the GFC was invoked, the businesses are struggling.

      The GFC and businesses struggling are a direct result of the policies that have been implemented at the behest of business.

      This is what work? life was like in the Depression. And Reilly has the gall to say in his pleasant, encouraging way that this is all necessary and, with a veiled threat, if there was any kickback from the unions or workers, serious employment controls would be invoked.

      NZ and the world have been heading back to the same conditions that created the Great Depression for the last thirty years and we seem to be doing so at the behest of the rich who seem to miss the grand old days of the 19th century when the rich were very, very rich and every one else was very, very poor.

      • greywarshark 3.3.1
        16 November 2014 at 4:10 pm

        @ DTB
        They could build nice Taj Mahals and European palaces with gorgeous painted ceilings and statues picked out in gold leaf then. It’s been the age of the common man, with a loss of other great works of the century. Now their day is past, and we can return to the grand old days of privilege. What!

  4. Jenny Kirk 4
    16 November 2014 at 9:00 am

    Worth watching on TV1 9.30pm next Wednesday – this excerpt is from the Christchurch Press today

    ” Dave Dobbyn is in no mood to play the cuddly national treasure. Not today.

    The singer is often portrayed as a cheeky troubadour with a quip for every occasion and a disposition permanently jammed on “amiable”. But Dobbyn recently had a life-changing experience on the West Coast, and he is angry.

    “Such bullshit surrounds the Pike River story,” he says from his Auckland home. “The best word that springs to mind is gutless. We’ve seen gutlessness from the Government, from the former owners of the mine, from the boards of directors. And gutlessness from the smiling assassin, John Key.”

    This coming Wednesday, on the fourth anniversary of the underground explosions that killed 29 miners, a documentary called Dreams Lie Deeper will screen at 9.30pm on TV One. It is the story of the death of both men and, Dobbyn would argue, governmental and corporate responsibility. It is also the story of the birth of a song………………………………………………………..

    ………………………..It’s a terrible thing to have lost somebody and be unable to bury them. And it’s even more terrible if they never came back because some unprincipled government and big business interests made a decision to leave them in a mine shaft just up the road.”

    • BassGuy 4.1
      16 November 2014 at 11:19 am

      Interestingly, the same number of miners were killed in an incident in the US. The CEO of said company “was indicted Thursday on charges that he orchestrated the routine violation of key federal mine safety rules…”

      Remarkable. The authorities in the US seem to have the guts to do it.

    • goodsweat 4.2
      16 November 2014 at 1:31 pm

      I’m not for recovering the remains of the men. I’m of the opinion that the intense and prolonged fire would leave little to recover. That’s where my ‘There is nothing we can do for them’ begins and ends. It seems to be the all encompassing position for the government.

      There is plenty we could and should be doing. The criminals that created the human kiln need to be held to account. There is mountains of damning evidence, starting with the comprehensive trail of ongoing workers’ safety concerns.

      Lets spend the recovery money on establishing education trusts for every one of the Lost Boys’ kids and grandkids.

      Lets put regulations and staff in place so that it can never happen again.

  5. Sirenia 5
    16 November 2014 at 9:45 am

    Good to see Kris Faafoi taking on the common idea that the Pacific community is anti gay. This is not so much about the leadership contest (which is almost over now) but an interesting comment about that assumption by one of our Pasifika MPs.

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Kris-Faafoi-Why-I-am-supporting-Grant-Robertson-for-Labour-leader/tabid/721/articleID/60786/Default.aspx

    • Anne 5.1
      16 November 2014 at 10:19 am

      Kris Faafoi was a member of the former club unofficially dubbed the ABCers. Even if it no longer exists, birds of a feather still stick together. I believe Grant is their choice of leader. Some in caucus vote for whichever candidate best suits the interest of caucus. The rest of us tend to give more consideration to what is in the party’s and the country’s best interest.

      • Karen 5.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 10:28 am

        Kris Faafoi was also one of the 5 Labour Party MPs who thought it was fine to accept invitations to accept Sky City hospitality at the rugby, thereby undermining Labour’s criticism of the deal that allowed Sky to increase the number of pokies. The others were Phil Goff, David Shearer, Clayton Cosgrove and Annette King. Most definitely the ABC club.

        I would have to say that many of the people who are backing Grant Robertson have actually managed to put me off him.

        • Rodel 5.1.1.1
          16 November 2014 at 10:55 am

          Got a call from a Grant Robertson lobbyist- positive about Robertson but slightly snide and negative about the others. Dissuaded me from even participating in the process.

          • bruhaha 5.1.1.1.1
            16 November 2014 at 12:29 pm

            Interesting. What were they saying?

          • greywarshark 5.1.1.1.2
            16 November 2014 at 4:17 pm

            @ Rodel
            Wat a sensitive litle sausage you are. They are out in the streets protesting in Hong Kong with their umbrellas. Umbrellas? But they thought up an interesting strategy because they are trying not giving up because someone was nasty.

        • lprent 5.1.1.2
          16 November 2014 at 5:43 pm

          Some of them have been irritating. But I also get the impression that they are a “new generation”, so we need to give them time to mature online. Most people do eventually.

      • Jenny Kirk 5.1.2
        16 November 2014 at 10:45 am

        It will probably always exist, Anne – but they might quieten down after a while and start re-thinking what their priorities are – or should be. Maybe ? !

    • Keir 5.2
      16 November 2014 at 3:57 pm

      Interesting to read about Kris’ father. Always nice to hear about how people acquired their values.

  6. goodsweat 6
    16 November 2014 at 10:14 am

    One of the hardest things we do in life is tell someone that we are close to and share many memories with that their services are no longer required.

    No matter if it’s telling a wife that the love fire has gone out or a caucus buddy that their role is going to change.

    In selecting a new leader how important is it that it be a person that can make these ugly uncomfortable calls? I think most agree that to carry on with a new boss and status quo will return what it has in the past.

    • McFlock 6.1
      16 November 2014 at 3:36 pm

      thanks for your concern.

      • Chooky 6.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 4:18 pm

        lol…especially liked goodsweat’s …”telling a wife that the love fire has gone out” …

        .

    • Clemgeopin 6.2
      16 November 2014 at 4:16 pm

      One of the hardest things we do in life is tell someone that we are close to and share many memories with that their services are no longer required

      It wasn’t for Key when he kicked out…

      Pancy Wong, Richard Worth, Aaron Gilmore, Nick Smith, Peter Dunne, Phil Heatley, Maurice Williamson, John Banks, and oh, Judith Collins.

      • goodsweat 6.2.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:35 pm

        I suspect it’s a modus operandi that keeps the Smiling Assassin’s soldiers on their toes….for now. Motivating people with fear has a time-line, it can’t be sustained. For longevity, people must be motivated by love.

  7. Sirenia 7
    16 November 2014 at 10:19 am

    Anyone who has seen the movie Pride will know how important is solidarity between different oppressed groups. Often hard to build but incredibly strong when working. By the way Pride is a movie to cheer up the left (based on a true story about Gay activists supporting striking Welsh miners under Thatcher in the 1980s).

    • goodsweat 7.1
      16 November 2014 at 10:37 am

      People power that doesn’t stop gaining momentum will always triumph.

      I think a lack of momentum is a reflection of the insidious nature of the low household incomes in NZ. We’re surviving, sort of. In limbo. In a bamboo cage suspended in the Mekong river with a little air gap at the top. Not quite drowning.

      I think this has much to do with voter apathy, we’re not quite drowning. National haven’t borrowed heaps to keep our welfare system intact through the GFC to be nice to Kiwis. Shave $20 off any benefit and folk would be drowning and voting en masse. I’m not dependant on a benefit but we all have friends and loved ones that are.

  8. Penny Bright 8
    16 November 2014 at 10:20 am

    Where the people lead – the politicians will follow?

    Seen this?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/63215766/Campaigner-challenges-rates-penalties

    Campaigner challenges rates penalties

    Rates protester Penny Bright believes she’s caught Auckland Council out charging illegal penalty fees on unpaid rates and intends to ask the High Court for a ruling on the issue.

    Bright is appealing a district court judgement that could lead to the sale of her Auckland home for a debt of over $30,000 for unpaid rates, penalties and legal costs.

    However, Bright and her supporters claim that many of the rates assessment notices she received over the last six years failed to contain information required by the Local Government (Rating) Act, rendering the assessments unlawful and unenforceable.

    She will also ask the court to rule on whether Auckland Council was entitled to charge penalties on the GST charged on rates, something which led to the bill she faced “multiplying and multiplying”.

    The Local Government (Rating) Act limits penalties up to 10 per cent of unpaid rates, but Bright and her supporters do not believe the definition of “rates” includes GST.

    Private detective, and Bright supporter, Grace Haden said: “Rates are determined exclusive of GST, and then the GST is added. There’s no statute that says they can charge penalties on GST. The rates you pay are rates plus GST. GST is not part of the rates.”

    Could Bright and her supporters be right?

    Local Government New Zealand doesn’t think so, acknowledging the Local Government (Ratings) Act does not mention GST in the definition of what a rate is, but saying that is the way penalties have been charged up and down the country since the 1980s.

    Auckland Council had not provided comment on the question before this article went to press.

    Councils do get their rates and penalties wrong and acts of Parliament can be required to clean up their errors. The government is passing such an act to legalise a decade of penalties charged illegally by Christchurch City Council, which failed to pass the resolutions needed to make its penalties lawful.

    Rather than using the word “illegal”, such tidy-up bills tend to speak of “irregularities” following similar wording in the bill to make legal the rates and rates penalties charged by Kaipara District Council to pay for a hideously expensive wastewater scheme at the Mangawhai Heads to the north of Auckland. Bright said if proved right, she would expect to see such a bill for Auckland Council, which charged $17 million in penalties on late rates payments in it 2014 financial year.

    “The penalties for not getting it right for ordinary people are huge. What are the penalties for them not getting it right?” Bright said.

    Penalties on late, and unpaid rates, are an increasingly lucrative source of revenue for Auckland Council. The $17 million charged in 2014 was up from $8m in 2011. Because they are charged as a percentage of unpaid rates, penalties increase in lock-step with rates.

    …………………….
    ______________________________________________________________________________________
    Penny Bright

    [lprent: Much better. In fact pretty acceptable. Thank you. ]

    • alwyn 8.1
      16 November 2014 at 10:57 am

      You’ve linked to the story Penny.
      You can then publish the highlight sentence or so here to show us why we should read the whole thing but you don’t have to republish every word of the story. We can follow the link if we want to see the whole thing.

      • Clemgeopin 8.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 12:10 pm

        What do you mean by ‘we’? Speak for yourself, you rude nitwit. I prefer to read what she wrote. You can click on the link if you wish. Stop being a nasty meany. I do admire Penny for the courageous/important stand she takes on difficult/controversial issues.

        • Anne 8.1.1.1
          16 November 2014 at 1:09 pm

          Actually Clem I think alwyn was giving some helpful advice. I didn’t take it as being nasty. He’s not the first to suggest it by a long way. Someone else did so in the past couple of days.

          Penny would get more of us prepared to read her comments if she did this. I also admire her for what she does.

        • alwyn 8.1.1.2
          16 November 2014 at 1:16 pm

          The thing about it is that it isn’t something that Penny wrote. It is a copy of the Herald story in its entirety.
          I would like to see a link to the story, a reason why we should read it and then Penny can say what she thinks. I am quite happy to read what she writes but I don’t need the whole story out of the paper reproduced.
          It wasn’t intended to be something like ” being a nasty meany” as you suggest.

          • Clemgeopin 8.1.1.2.1
            16 November 2014 at 1:32 pm

            For one thing, she did not reproduce the entire article, though quite a bit. Give her a little slack here for feeling a little proud and vindicated that a MSM had an article about her and the issue she is fighting for. Without such dedicated persistent people fighting relentlessly against the big guns changes do not happen easily.

            I was annoyed that you did not bother to debate her issue, for or against, commend or criticise her for the points raised in the article. It came across as petty and rude to me.

            I am sorry that I replied to you in a rude manner.

    • Chooky 8.2
      16 November 2014 at 4:21 pm

      +100…GO Penny!…”Rates protester Penny Bright believes she’s caught Auckland Council out charging illegal penalty fees on unpaid rates and intends to ask the High Court for a ruling on the issue.”

  9. Ad 9
    16 November 2014 at 10:50 am

    Who is going to win the leadership?

    • b waghorn 9.1
      16 November 2014 at 11:17 am

      Little I hope

    • Skinny 9.2
      16 November 2014 at 12:23 pm

      Little, and Parker as his deputy. I spoke to a friend who was most impressed with Parker, I changed my opinion after going for a walk with him and having a good chat about how we win the next election. No doubting he is a very smart guy, smarter than the others I’d go as far to say. Hope he will fall in behind Little who will need his wise head and experience.

    • Anne 9.3
      16 November 2014 at 1:11 pm

      The Q&A panel this morning went for Little.

  10. joe90 10
    16 November 2014 at 11:51 am

    A grim read.

    “It’s almost a choice of, ‘Do I die by starvation, or do I die by poisoning?’ ” he said, his voice soft and resigned. O’Connor, 57, grew up in the working-class section of Limerick City, Ireland, and retains a gentle accent. “Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. What decision can you make?”

    http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/nature/The-High-Cost-of-Oil.html

    • left for deadshark 10.1
      16 November 2014 at 3:45 pm

      @ Joe 90
      Very sad,I did not realize it was that horrific,bloody good thing that it’s not happening in Southland,under Solid energy.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:36 pm

        Give the Nats time and I’m sure that they’ll declare it necessary for some reason or other. Of course, the present farming in Southland isn’t much better – stripping the soils of nutrients and polluting the rivers.

  11. goodsweat 11
    16 November 2014 at 12:19 pm

    When I was living there around 2000 The Democratic Socialists in Sweden didn’t see their captains of industry as the enemy. They embraced the right winger ducking and weaving that the executive staff of their many global brands take to the world.

    I feel that this is how broad the Broadchurch of a Labour party in power needs to stretch.

    The Swedes did it differently to the way we do it at the moment. They’re all it together. When their GDP/tax rake goes up, when lots of Electroluxes and Volvos get sold, periodically, lots of things change. Workers’ personal tax rates go down and all benefits go up. The reverse happens too. When productivity took a hit, tax rates bumped up, benefits took a slice (Bearing in mind, in 2000 the benefit was similar to the healthy min wage.) Their system seemed to create a feeling of national unity re: trading with the rest of the world.

    • Murray Rawshark 11.1
      16 November 2014 at 4:48 pm

      Maybe their captains of industry actually do something worthwhile. The Kiwi rich tend to speculate on the property market, often with government help. Or they get lucrative contracts off their mates in NAct. Or they get given assets which we have spent years building up. Your comments make no sense.

      • goodsweat 11.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:45 pm

        I think you’re right about our real estate scene Murray. Having our nation’s wealth tied up in a dormant entity like a house does little for our nation’s wellbeing. In a healthy country I think those dollars should be set to work, creating opportunities for us all.

        Our love of playing Monopoly has made a mega industry of lawn-mowing. We’d be way better off with an internationally recognised and patronised Geothermal Power generating equip/tech industry.

    • miravox 11.2
      16 November 2014 at 11:25 pm

      Unfortunately Sweden hit a bump in the Social Democratic road in the in the form of neo-liberal policies that have led to race riots and inequality growing at one of the fastest rates in the developed world.

      The Sweden you knew and the Sweden now should give you a very good indication of where the politics of our National party have shifted society.

      • goodsweat 11.2.1
        17 November 2014 at 9:22 am

        Hi miravox, I made many dear Swedish friends that I often speak with, I regularly read the newspapers and when I can I visit. My pal Tedde was here recently. You might be more au fait with what’s going on there now than me but what I see and what I’m being told indicates that their current problems have very little to do with neoliberalism. Quite the reverse.

        Aspects of a Democratic Socialist Society have led them to their current less than ideal situation. They have had their Socialist systems for decades miravox, the right haven’t dropped them in the poo, they haven’t had the chance.

        By very nature a socialist society embraces all. EU involvement and a very pro-active immigrant and refugee resettlement program have played the biggest role in their demise. not long after arriving in Sweden I was blown away by their work ethic. Their largely mono culture worked like demons. All of them, men and women. Because the child care system is so fabulous, everyone was expected to work. Equal pay for both sexes. After 6 months of paid leave, back to work Mum. I’ve never worked as hard in my life as when in Sweden. All the perks, but no free lunches. All worked when I was there. Those few out of work volunteered at libraries, old folks homes etc.

        The lowering of borders saw many flood into Sweden. Who wouldn’t want to move to a country where watching TV pays as much as being a motor mechanic? Migrants from the newly formed Russian states across the Baltic Sea like Estonia and Latvia took over entire apartment buildings while I was still there. These were people that had spent their whole lives sitting around drinking home-made Vodka, nothing to do. They can’t believe how stupid the Swedes are and have exploited their fabulous system to death.

        All of a sudden, punks kicking cans down the street and people spending their lives just sitting in the sun. Escalating crime. Chronic increase in violent rapes. Tedde feels that the worrying spike in violence towards women is down to the many Muslim migrants. Because they are socialists, any record of ethnicity is illegal, it’s considered racist. There are no ethnicity figures on who is committing these crimes against women. Similar situation in Norway.

        So miravox yes, there is civil unrest in Sweden, Scandanavia generally. Those protesting are upset about the cutting of government support. These austerity measures have to be made because of a mistake they have made with their Socialist Democratic system, nothing to do with neoliberalism. The business and commerce of neoliberalism is responsible for the success these Socialists have enjoyed.

        • miravox 11.2.1.1
          17 November 2014 at 11:26 pm

          Sweden didn’t welcome immigrants only because of their internationalist perspective (as much as I admire that), but also because all those businesses needed workers – same as for most of Northern Europe, with declining indigenous populations.

          The civil unrest didn’t begin because of immigration, but because of increased unemployment, increasing inequality, lower housing standards, separating communities, and alienation of the next generation of immigrants, imo, not because of Social Democratic policies. These factors also lead to the increase in far-right activisim that includes blaming immigrants for the woes of the country.

          As for crime statistics – they may not record ethnicity, but they do record country of origin. And yes, like most countries, marginalised populations are questioned more about crime. Sexual violence remains more likely to be perpetrated by a current or ex partner rather than an unknown immigrant. It would be great if some of those anti-immigrant websites who are concerned about women’s well-being gave this the spotlight it deserves.

          I’m not saying abuses of systems and people don’t occur, obviously they do. It can be a nasty, self-centered world, but I disagree the cause is the Social Democratic society, and if there has been an increase in social dysfunction since the election of successive conservative governments I think you need to look a little further for the cause.

          • goodsweat 11.2.1.1.1
            18 November 2014 at 11:13 am

            I think you’ll find most Swedes feel their immigration policies could of been better managed. The problem isn’t due to the way they wish to live, that’s why I’m still a Social Democrat. They’ve made a boo boo.

            A convincing story about what is and has happened there can be found in all the colours of the rainbow. Such is the nature of the internet.

            Blocks of apartments close to the Polytech I attended were taken over by specific ethnicities. Eventually large satellite dishes that could pick up TV from across Europe occupied every balcony. I was in the small shop that serviced these 200 apartments that were originally built to house students. I saw the shop-keeper stood over. When I tried to probe what was going on, after the oaf had left, the Swede said that in the past after he had called the Police, his son was bashed at school.

            Swedes are just not accustomed to these kind of pressures. For the new arrivals it’s how life has been lived up until now. The Swedes aren’t accustomed to dealing with perfectly healthy people that are content doing nothing for their entire lives. Where many of these new Swedes come from, drawing continued breath represents being a winner.

            When there, what I saw was: If not an alcoholic, disabled, drug addict, aged etc. Every one of them, without exception was working, volunteering or in training/studying. Not because the government demanded it but because they wanted to.

  12. Clemgeopin 12
    16 November 2014 at 12:36 pm

    DAVID PARKER

    Covered in tar and then butter one day in the 1980s, David Parker earned the nickname “Tar Baby” from his roading gang on Stewart Island. A container of tar exploded in his face, fracturing his skull, and turning him into a human statue. Covered head to toe in the cold emulsion used to seal roads, Parker was smeared in butter at the hospital in Invercargill to dissolve the tar. His facial reconstruction work was done later in Dunedin where Parker was given “a nose which was slightly bigger than I wanted”.

    GRANT ROBERTSON

    The former student body president was arrested, but never charged, for inciting to riot while leading a “rowdy” protest against fee increases at the University of Otago. Robertson also used to manage multiple bands, one of which was called Too Many Daves, which “has always been ironic in the Labour Party”. He also claims an encyclopaedic knowledge of Otago rugby and cricket of the 1980s and 1990s, and is word-perfect on the lyrics of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

    ANDREW LITTLE

    Diagnosed with cancer at the beginning of 2009, Andrew Little underwent brachytherapy, where radioactive seeds are injected directly into the prostate. A week later, giving the president’s speech at the Labour Party, Little said he did not tell many people about his radioactive innards, as he thought he would “be in breach of the party’s anti-nuclear policy”.

    NANAIA MAHUTA

    Mahuta gave us the option of two stories – one from her childhood, one as a young adult. Requests to hear both, then decide, fell on deaf ears, so speculation abounds on what startling experience Mahuta as a child may have had. But as a Masters student, Mahuta worked part-time at the Huntly power station. She said she had always looked, but never understood how the power station operated until she began working there herself. It was her co-workers who had “such motivation and pride in their work” that she remembers most.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/63244131/Startling-news-from-the-Labour-frontline

  13. Murray Rawshark 13
    16 November 2014 at 3:51 pm

    I get a bit sick of people saying that Labour has to move toward the centre in order to get enough votes. A party should not be bouncing around on the political spectrum in a chase after votes, it should have clearly stated positions and convince people of them. It should change the political spectrum.

    Labour has done this twice in its history. The first was in the early days of Savage and co., when it framed the social democratic paradigm that defined the spectrum for 50 years. Labour moved the centre of gravity to the left.

    The second time was when it upset the social democratic consensus completely with a huge leap to the right and set the stage for ACT governments in the subsequent 30 years. The spectrum moved in a huge leap to the right, and has been incrementally pulled to the right since.

    So bugger occupying the centre. Have some vision. Redefine the political spectrum. Don’t be content with slowing down the drift to the right, as Helen Clark was. Be brave. Work with people and take them with you. Unless of course, Labour are all politically vague careerists like the ABCs. In that case, just resign and bugger off. FJK and FABC2.

    • Once Was Tim 13.1
      16 November 2014 at 4:52 pm

      O fuckn le to that. In other words be brave enough to win on your supposed principles rather than your (usually over-inflated) egos. Of course using that criteria, Little and Mahuta are clear winners. I’m not yet sure thats where consumerist New Zull is at (till they consider having to cash up – i.e do the old credits .v. debits and liabilities – which is probably a lot closer than they think.

    • Clemgeopin 13.2
      16 November 2014 at 4:58 pm

      When I say move to the centre, I mean be pragmatic. Do not alienate the big chunck of voters at the middle. Take them with you slowly and comfortably without being gung ho and stupidly speedy. Change takes time and careful planning. No use of high principles and low voter support. I am a very left leaning democratic socialist at heart, but a realist on what is possible in a democratic free society.

      Savage’s days are different from what the world and society is today in terms of technology, types of work and standards of living. What he did was great and similar things in housing, environmental and social issues can still be done but in a different modern way without upsetting your crucial voters. That is the bottom line, unless we have a bloody revolution. Have you noticed that almost all the western countries have right wing governments today? Why is that? We have to change that smartly.

      The biggest mistake of Douglas and his stupid gang of smart arse supporters was not the changes and monetary easing he engineered, but the callous speed and drastic accentuated actions he undertook devastating our society, especially the workers, the poor and the less wealthy. Even Jim Anderton acknowledges that changes were certainly needed but not in the crazy heartless way undertaken by Douglas and his rich mates that caused unnecessary misery and inequality.

      See this very good 10 minute clip. Jim Anderton and Sue Bradford are after 5:00 minutes.
      http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/rogernomics-revolution-30-years-on-2014111512

      • Murray Rawshark 13.2.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:22 pm

        So you want neoliberalism, but think it should be in favour of the poor? How exactly does that work? Sounds like Tony Blair to me.

        • goodsweat 13.2.1.1
          16 November 2014 at 6:01 pm

          The hard left seem convinced that if only they could get their message across and we gave their model for an ace NZ a bit of a go that we’d love it. I’m not sure the majority of us would.

          Nobody was trying to sneak into East Germany….lovers maybe, love conquers all.

          My ideal government extends a little more help to those that need it and creates many opportunities for the rest of us to be the best we can be. In a climate like that, a better standard of living for all comes naturally of it’s own accord.

          • felix 13.2.1.1.1
            16 November 2014 at 6:37 pm

            In which of your twisted right-wing masturbatory fantasies does anyone on the left in NZ want to create anything even vaguely resembling East Germany?

            In which of your wet dreams is there even such a thing as a “hard left” in NZ?

            The political landscape in NZ 2014 consists of:

            Facist extremists
            Hard-right loyalists
            Right-wing stoics
            Centre-right apologists
            Centrist appeasers

            Hard left my arse. Name a hard-left policy from the last 3 elections.

            • goodsweat 13.2.1.1.1.1
              16 November 2014 at 6:59 pm

              Does being nasty to people give you a sense of power? I’m not talking about platform election policies. I’m talking about the sentiment displayed by some of the contributors to this forum. Those that upon hearing that my business turned a profit want me to go to hell.

              A successful party won’t choose a sector to appease, we all need to feel that we’re getting a fair go.

          • Murray Rawshark 13.2.1.1.2
            16 November 2014 at 7:23 pm

            There are more options than just Galt’s Gulch and East Germany. You are using a typical right wing smear. In any case, why do we have to model ourselves on anything? I know this would be absolute heresy to a Key lover, but we do have the talent to make our own society. Not much of it seems to be in the two main parties, though. We don’t actually have to keep importing failed ideas from overseas.

            • goodsweat 13.2.1.1.2.1
              16 November 2014 at 7:40 pm

              I have no more love for Key than I have for you Murray. I love you both equally.

              I’m not convinced that assuming that we know everything and stand to learn nothing from looking at any other country in the world is wise.

              Before I moved there, over and over I heard how Sweden is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world.

              Turns out this was true. They get royally hammered. The extraordinary thing was that I had trouble finding anyone that cared.

              Brain surgeons take home much better money than bus drivers but they are taxed to the degree that their treat is a simple bach on an island in the Baltic rather than 2 floors of a condo in Malibu. A spin off benefit of this is that professionals are more inclined to be doing what they do for reasons beyond mere cash.

              Nobody cared about the hefty taxes because the real and many benefits were there on plain display for all to see every minute of the day. I believe the austerity belt has been pulled but since I was there, an example of one of these ‘high tax society’ benefits I saw…

              My partner had to take a day off work to take her daughter to an eye specialist at a hospital 100kms away. Her employer granted her the day off, no questions asked. After the visit she sent a form and receipts to a government office. She was reimbursed for the car mileage, parking, the specialists fee, our lunch, the medicine and the day’s pay. Her Dad lived on an island about 500m off the coast, a large vehicular ferry steams bach and forth, day and night, winter and summer. The ferry fee for passengers: Nothing. For vehicles: Nothing. The ferry network is considered a division of the roading system.

              • goodsweat …
                16 November 2014 at 8:24 pm

                When I arrived in Sweden I did as most new Swedes do and started studying full-time at a Polytech type place. ‘Swedish for Immigrants’, the class was stacked with sweet young Thai women that had come to Sweden to be with their lonely Swedish mates. Clever indoctrination course, they teach the language largely with the day’s newspaper. My sweetheart teed me up a job for 6 nights a week 2am until 6.30am. I earned my highest hourly rate in my adult life working as a newspaper delivery boy.

        • Clemgeopin 13.2.1.2
          17 November 2014 at 12:06 am

          @Murray Rawshark

          I am not a RW nut job. I am a leftist democratic socialist….So, neo-liberalism is a misnomer if applied to me based on my ideas, I think.

          My real ideals are socialist based: I want to see EVERY one and every family to have enough income to live and provide a comfortable life for their families. Every one to have enough ‘good’ food, a ‘decent’ house and ‘necessities’ of life without financial struggle and debts. I would want everyone to be able to save enough to enjoy some luxuries too and to have a reasonable retirement. I stand for free education, health, universal super etc, the usual socialist ideals. I also believe in reducing the ever increasing wealth and income gaps between the wealthy and the rest. I believe in government control and intervention of the greedy free market so that there is meaningful competition rather than what is now happenning due to monopolies, duopolies, big corporate interests and the greedy business mafias.

          However, all these great ideals can not be achieved without work, jobs, business, investments, increased production, exports etc. Nor can these decent civilised ideals be achieved by force by any political party in a democracy without taking the people with it through persuasion, debate and education. A party or a group of left parties NEED over 50% of the vote first of all to govern and make worthwhile decent things happen for the good of the people and the long term good of the country.

          Most votes are at the centre of the population (income wise) with people there being generally well educated, professionals, small business holders, contractors etc. This is the crucial group that Labour needs to attract.

          The way to do that would be by having economic policies that don’t scare this group away from Labour into the Nat/ACT nation and soul destroying RW crocodiles.

          For example,

          Don’t think of charging scary amount of income tax rates. Labour’s proposal of 36c per dollar for incomes over $150,000 (at present 33c/$) would be digestible (instead of the Green’s 40c/$ for over $140,000)

          Forget new taxes such as carbon tax and petrol tax etc. As these will not only scare voters away, but will simply add to inflation.

          Have policies friendly to the producers, the job creators, the manufacturers, the exporters, the small business owners, the professionals and the workers.

          Stop wanting to be the world leader in climate change by creating economic havoc in our own society. Let the big polluting countries deal with that issue primarily first. We should do our small necessary bit but in relation to our tiny position in the world, without being all gung ho, because that will make very little real change to Earth’s GW anyway.

          Stupid to suddenly stop mining, deep sea drilling and power generation etc costing us tens of thousands of jobs and heaps and heaps of wealth. Use modern safer methods and ease away from such mining gradually over time and in the mean time invest in modern sustainable/renewable energy production over time.

          GST and Super age : These seem to be vote losers at present. Can it for term one. During term one in office, get people and MSM to debate and discuss these issues for future changes if necessary. For example, explore if people will support GST to be introduced for houses exceeding two in number (primary +one rental), rather than excluding just the primary home.
          Similar strategy for the retirement age. May be retirement age starting at 63, instead of at 65 (with diminished graduated pension until 67), with universal non-income tested pension from 67. These issues need discussion and voter support (and preferably cross party support) before being implemented.

          These are just some examples of what I mean by policies to attract the centre voters to our great Labour party, the party of all the people. Not Neo-liberal, I don’t think.

          • Colonial Rawshark 13.2.1.2.1
            17 November 2014 at 12:21 am

            The vision that you have put forward for Labour is suitable for a world with the resources it had in the 1950s. But today, it is a full century behind the times.

            1) Our fossil fuels based global civilisation is currently ending, due to resource and energy depletion. Increasing economic activity, production, exports and consumption as it occurs today, will only accelerate the rate of decline.

            2) Governments have many ways of funding important societal investments. Taxation and foreign borrowing are not the only ways.

            3) There is likely to be no “retirement age” by approx 2040 as a large proportion of our energy slaves will be gone by then, and we will not have the economic/energy surplus left to support one.

            Stop wanting to be the world leader in climate change by creating economic havoc in our own society. Let the big polluting countries deal with that issue primarily first. We should do our small necessary bit but in relation to our tiny position in the world, without being all gung ho, because that will make very little real change to Earth’s GW anyway.

            Our industrial highly undiversified ag/hort industry is not going to survive the next 30 years of climate change, fossil fuel and P depletion without huge change and adaptation. Food security, once a concern only for the third world and developing world, will be a major issue for all western countries.

            How much further do you seriously think a hybrid of BAU (Business-As-Usual) and Pretend & Extend is going to take us?

            • Clemgeopin 13.2.1.2.1.1
              17 November 2014 at 12:37 am

              Even if what you say is ALL true, how will you get OVER 50% of the voters to support your view and give their party vote, to be able to form a government to be in a position to start implementing the necessary social, economic and environmental changes? That is the most important question to address. Votes!

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                17 November 2014 at 12:48 am

                That’s easy. You can get all the votes you want by ignoring all the problems that I mentioned, and promising the better game of BAU and Pretend & Extend.

                • Clemgeopin …
                  17 November 2014 at 1:12 am

                  Nah, that is no solution!
                  I am not saying you aught to ignore what you are saying. What I am saying is implement those measures slowly over time and by taking the people with you to get elected first without scaring them away from voting for you. Otherwise we will simply end up living with these ideals merely in the mind, may be just dream and regret at leisure.

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    17 November 2014 at 1:19 am

                    At some stage politicians are going to have to treat voters like adults and just tell them the truth. And as I explained above, the luxury of taking things slowly is long gone.

  14. fisiani 14
    16 November 2014 at 4:38 pm

    Having been banned from one thread for having the temerity to write so called obsequious flattery aka sycophancy I wonder if the same intolerance of dissent applies on the Open Mike.
    I opined that the reason the Centre-Right was in the ascendancy was because it was correct and the Left are fundamentally wrong. There is no need to invoke the biased MSM or some other bogeyman for electile failure. That merely assumes that The Left is the norm and that voters are not intelligent enough to know what is best for them. What arrogant piffle. The Left as we know it today was strong in the 20th century and arose from the writings of such as Karl Marx whose ideas were formed in the 19th Century. I believe that in the 21st Century the essential failure of the Left to deliver in the last 100 years means that it will inevitably fade. The Labour vote has fallen in each of the last three elections. Was that the fault of Helen Clark, Phil Goff or David Cunliffe? No, just the tide going out on discredited Socialism. A Centrist government like we have now is happy to extend free medical care to children. Maintain interest free student loans. After each of the last three elections the assumption of the Left is that there will be a swing back as there was in the 20th century. 25% is not the lowest tide mark. It can and probably will go lower. In the 19th century in the UK the Liberal party was powerful, but not now.
    I am not trying to be provocative, merely giving an opinion. I apologise if such an opinion is so threatening that it needs to be censored and hidden.

    [lprent: Authors or moderators can dump anyone off a post if they consider that someone is trying to disrupt discussion of what the author said said. Since they took the effort of writing a post about something, it is the height of stupidity to divert from discussing *their* topic.

    If you want to raise a point in an authors post then it is up to you to make it relevant to that post. I’d point out that if I saw it first, I’d be more likely to dump you off the site for a while to ensure that I didn’t have the issue show up again in the short term. You know that…

    Open Mike doesn’t have an author as is made clear in the post text, so you’d only get “censored” there if you do something that violates other policies. Of course whining about site rules is always a starter for that…. ]

    • b waghorn 14.1
      16 November 2014 at 4:49 pm

      That’s the longest you’ve ever crowed for yet well ,done you’ve excelled your self

      • Murray Rawshark 14.1.1
        16 November 2014 at 4:58 pm

        I think he’s Francis Fukuyama, rewriting The End of History just for us. He probably thinks he is too 🙂

    • Once Was Tim 14.2
      16 November 2014 at 4:58 pm

      all very well IF you believe we actually have a ‘centrist’ government’. You’re obviously younger than I originally thought fizz. Probably a Jamie Lee Ross vintage I’m picking

      • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:46 pm

        From my observations of Fisiani’s writing over the last couple of years, he’s just out of university and has no real world experience. Of course, considering his pathological ideology, I doubt if having any real world experience would change his mind – he’d probably just dig deeper into the delusion.

    • Clemgeopin 14.3
      16 November 2014 at 5:13 pm

      You forget that people are basically caring and have a social conscience, just as the left wing parties such as Labour, the greens and Mana do. National are just pretenders, copying Labour policies to fool and steal votes from left wing supporters, but while in power most of their policies are made to help the rich and the corporates…and oh, USA.

      If National had any integrity they would abandon all the socialist left policies of Labour and canvas honestly based on their true RW philosophy. They don’t. Why? Because Nats are dishonest capitalist crooks.

      And another thing. Only 47% of the country supported National. They were able to form a government with the help of other small and small minded stupid parasites such as 0% ACT, Two mana-less Maori MPs and a 0% Hairdo.

      So, don’t beat your drum too much.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.3.1
        16 November 2014 at 5:51 pm

        If National had any integrity they would abandon all the socialist left policies of Labour and canvas honestly based on their true RW philosophy. They don’t. Why? Because Nats are dishonest capitalist crooks.

        QFT

      • framu 14.3.2
        17 November 2014 at 9:05 am

        “Only 47% of the country supported National”

        just nit picking here – but as thats not true could we stop saying it?

        47% of those who voted supported national, which is a sub set of voters, which is in turn a subset of NZers

        semantics yes – but in does play into the rights narrative regarding levels of support

        • Clemgeopin 14.3.2.1
          17 November 2014 at 9:50 am

          I used that 47% figure for fisiani’s argument that ” the tide is going out on discredited Socialism”.

          Party vote percentage:

          RW based parties:
          National (47.04%)
          ACT (0.69%)
          Total=47.73%

          Socialism based Parties:
          Labour (25.13%)
          Green (10.70%)
          NZ First (8.66%)
          Māori (1.32%)
          United Future (0.22%)
          Total=46.03%

          • framu 14.3.2.1.1
            17 November 2014 at 10:09 am

            true – but my point remains – saying 47% of the country supported national isnt a fact

            • Clemgeopin 14.3.2.1.1.1
              17 November 2014 at 10:15 am

              Can you explain why it isn’t a fact?

              • framu …
                17 November 2014 at 4:33 pm

                its pretty simple

                47% of those who voted supported national, which is a sub set of voters, which is in turn a subset of NZers

                unless were going to say that “the country” now doesnt include those who didnt or cant vote

                those that voted, are a subset of eligible voters, who are a subset of all NZers

    • goodsweat 14.4
      16 November 2014 at 6:22 pm

      The dialogue and plans will morph, National can crawl all over the centre but the key reason for Labour’s existence will never go out of fashion: All people and their wellbeing.

    • BM 14.5
      16 November 2014 at 7:28 pm

      Lol, electile failure.

      That’s superb.

      • fisiani 14.5.1
        16 November 2014 at 7:50 pm

        Glad you managed to see the original post that was entirely relevant to the thread but simply pointed out another reason why The Centre Right are in the ascendancy worldwide.

    • framu 14.6
      17 November 2014 at 9:08 am

      ” I apologise if such an opinion is so threatening”

      its got nothing to do with your opinion and everything to do with your behaviour

  15. joe90 15
    16 November 2014 at 5:11 pm

    Powerful.

    Shaun King ‏@ShaunKing

    I listen to this daily. Multiple times per day. @TefPoe. “War Cry” No song stands stronger for justice today. https://soundcloud.com/tef-poe/war-cry-produced-by-dj-smitty-jay-nixon-diss-record …

    https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/533786245608906752

  16. aj 16
    16 November 2014 at 8:05 pm

    “Former Massey Energy CEO Blankenship could face 31 years in prison for his actions that led to and followed the Upper Big Branch disaster.
    Don Blankenship, the former CEO of coal giant Massey Energy, faces up to 31 years in prison after a federal grand jury indicted him Thursday on four criminal charges related to the worst coal mine disaster in decades.
    Twenty-nine workers were killed in an explosion at the non-union Upper Big Branch (UBB) Mine near Montcoal, West Virginia in April 2010”

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/11/14/poster-boy-malevolent-big-business-indicted-over-fatal-coal-mine-disaster