Open Mike 16/11/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 16th, 2017 - 179 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

179 comments on “Open Mike 16/11/2017 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. CLEANGREEN 1
    16 November 2017 at 7:04 am

    National used a phoney excuse to claim they could not afford to pay $4 Million to fix a 1km slip that closed the Gisborne Napier rail service but were very happy to $15 Million to be spent on one cycle trail.???? Un-believable.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/98924498/sdc-ponders-how-to-pay-for-46m-of-completed-cycle-trail

    • eco maori 1.1
      16 November 2017 at 8:19 am

      CleanGreen Yes Keys logic seem unbelievable I use to take the Train from Gisborne to Napier a few years back It is a beautiful safe scenic ride like all OUR rail route .

      Even the roads are shocking the Napier Taupo road once you get over the Tarawera ranges the road to Gisborne are shit I don’t go up north much once but that was before key got the wheel and the roads up north were ok then they are not roads that one expects for a rich civilized society all OUR wealthy people won’t no this as there main mode of transport is a plane. I wonder what motive key had to starve these regions of funding for the maintenance of there infrastructure . Ka pai

      • CLEANGREEN 1.1.1
        16 November 2017 at 8:49 am

        Yes eco maori.

        being 73 born in Auckland and brought up in Napier from a six yr old we always used rail to go north and south as many others did then.

        Most freight also went by rail too.

        Today our regional roads are truly a disaster, as we have potholes and sinking road bridge aproaches all over the regions between Palmerston North all the way up the East Coast to Opotiki now .

        The roads are so bad now simply due to the extra weight, size, and volumes of trucks now allowed on these primary roads not built for these heavier trucks.

        Those heavier trucks are now destroying the roads faster than they can be fixed, as the road contractors are writting these pproblems inour local press advising us all anbout those problems.

        Road repair crews are now continually “patching these highways with cement dust and cold tar mix, but come back a week later and the roads again have big holes in them.

        The hage cost of road repairs now are cripling most local councils who are allowing these extra heavy trucks on our narrow fragile roads so we are deep in the shit.

        Anwser; – To Labour Coalition;

        Bring back all regional rail services now please labour coalition, as you have promised and make our lives safer and more enjoyable.

      • alwyn 1.1.2
        16 November 2017 at 10:12 am

        “I use to take the Train from Gisborne to Napier a few years back “.
        How time flies. Just a few years back the man says when he means the best part of 20.
        The last passenger service was at the beginning of the century, just over 16 years ago.
        “On 7 October 2001 the Bay Express from Wellington to Napier was cancelled and passenger services on the line ceased.”
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Railway_Station,_New_Zealand
        You have a very good memory if that only seems a “few years”.

        • marty mars 1.1.2.1
          16 November 2017 at 10:29 am

          At face value you seem to be judging someone negatively for having a different perception of time to you – so petty alwyn and bigoted btw – do you consider anyone else before writing?

          • alwyn 1.1.2.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 1:20 pm

            At face value I would have to say you seem to have had your eyes closed and your brain in neutral when you read what I had written.
            I don’t see, and there certainly wasn’t meant to be, anything derogatory about what I said. It is just a reflection on how fast time seems to pass when you get older. Something that seems to have been “just yesterday” turns out to have been a decade ago.
            You may find the same thing when you reach maturity, if that ever happens.

    • patricia bremner 1.2
      16 November 2017 at 10:21 am

      Cleangreen 1 Now isn’t that typical?

      • CLEANGREEN 1.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 10:37 am

        Yes Patricia,

        NZ is going backwards now as rail is needed more than ever but no Government except for Micheal Cullen/Helen Clark & this labour coalition has been prepared to balance the freight and regional passenger services or better said “level the playing field” between all modes of transport.

        Alll the papers and studies from scientists are now saying get awayy from road freight and use rail to lower the Climate change emmissions of CO2 but national well and truly dig a hole for us by attempting to totally close down our whole regional rail serrvices. http://uic.org/Energy-and-CO2-emissions

  2. chris73 2
    16 November 2017 at 7:06 am

    So that didn’t take long for the strikes to begin, its not a problem now but if strikes keep happening it’ll start to remind people of the bad ‘ol days of the 70s

    [lprent: Perhaps you’d like to actually tell us what strike this is? A link would be sufficient.

    This one perhaps “Full-day strike to shut down Wellington trains“.

    The union’s general secretary Wayne Butson said employers Transdev Wellington and Hyundai Rotem, which operate and maintain Wellington’s rail network, were trying to remove longstanding conditions from staff collective agreements.

    and it appears that you missed the same issue happening last month

    Rail and Maritime Transport Union general secretary Wayne Butson said they were unimpressed at how the matter had been handled by the company so far.

    “This is the first time since 1994 that there has been a complete shutdown of the Wellington metro system,” he said.

    “In fact, it has taken 15 years for us to get an employer who has angered the workers sufficiently to cause a strike.”

    Transdev, a French-headquartered multinational company, took over the contract to run Wellington trains from KiwiRail last year.

    Mr Butson argued Transdev had mishandled negotiations and risked bringing New Zealand back to an earlier age of industrial turmoil.

    Ok. looking at the style with which you presented that, it looks to me like you are just deliberately fire raising.

    That didn’t take you long after your last ban. Let treat you like you’d probably want to treat the workers striking to retain their existing conditions when a new employer tries it on.

    Two weeks ban this time. ]

    • Ed 2.1
      16 November 2017 at 7:10 am

      The bad old days when people got a living wage, there was barely any unemployment, houses were affordable, when our health and education systems were well funded……,

    • Ed 2.2
      16 November 2017 at 7:12 am

      Why do you support the interests of the 1% troll?

      • CLEANGREEN 2.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 7:26 am

        Ed; – [deleted]

        [don’t try and guess the real life identity of people using pseudonyms here. – weka]

        • chris73 2.2.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 7:31 am

          Hi Cleangreen, you may be unaware but its considered a bit of social faux pas to suggest who someone might be behind their nom de plume

          [deleted]

      • James 2.2.2
        16 November 2017 at 7:41 am

        You know continuously running around replying to comments you don’t like calling someone a troll – actually makes you one right ?

        A sad and not very clever one, but a troll none the less.

    • CLEANGREEN 2.3
      16 November 2017 at 7:20 am

      Chris, are you a National troll who rejects democracy.

      Rail workers have not had to strike for 25yrs until National allowed a private french company out bid kiwirail two years ago and national allowed this private company to strip the 25yr collective bargaining rights from those workers.

      So do you wish to stop colective bargaining rights?

      To me it sounds like it. so please explain.

      By the way, – I am not in any union or rail workers organisation.

      I am part of a community group who want to see more rail used to reduce the increasing truck gridlock down to a tolerable level so that our roads are safer than they are now and residential areas are not continually exposed to truck noise, vibrations, and air pollution destroying their health and wellbeing.

      • chris73 2.3.1
        16 November 2017 at 7:28 am

        Reject democracy? Nope, I ‘m quite happy with democracy and MMP even with all its flaws as its the best system we currently have.

        I’m pointing out that in the 70s there was quite a bit of industrial action, mainly around the interislander at holiday time to be far, enough that even as a youngster I still remember and that it ticked off enough people that the erosion of unions wasn’t exactly mourned by the majority of voters

        I’m saying that very shortly after the new government theres a strike and at the moment its not a biggie but if theres more it may (or may not) remind the older voters of what NZ used to be like

        [lprent: You really are a dipshit. From one of the links on my last note above.

        Mr Butson said the union had a mandate to call a strike between 13 November and 1 December.

        Doesn’t sound like a holiday period to me.

        Lets add another arbitrary 2 weeks removal of your writing rights for lying and false equivalences. ]

        • Ed 2.3.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 7:38 am

          Born in 73?
          So no idea of what life was like then.

          • CLEANGREEN 2.3.1.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 8:18 am

            The national trolls are now out in force, all of them including james.

            ‘They are loosing it’ because their past sense of power has been taken from them.

            National were to arrogant as they adopted “the born to rule” attitude, which all three term governments do.

            So we shall see if this enduring Laboour coalition government adopts this “born to rule” attitude in nine years time.

            Hopefully Labour coalition will learn from the those National Party mistaken notion that we all would carry on taking their ‘poison’.

            Thank God we are all free from national party oppression.

        • mac1 2.3.1.2
          16 November 2017 at 8:11 am

          When farm working for a time I met a carpenter who also worked on the ferries. We were discussing the issue of strikes that occurred often during holiday periods.

          He told me the reason for one strike in the Seventies.

          The first was the size of the new mattresses fitted into the crew bunks which did not fit but overflowed the bunk’s raised edge.

          Oh dear!

          I must have looked blankly at him for he explained that if you were lying in that bunk and the ship rolled, as they do, you got rolled as well …….over the edge of the bunk, onto the floor.

          Holiday periods of course occurred three or four times a year, for a total of thirteen weeks. There was a good 1:3 chance that a strike period would overlap with a holiday period.

          This unionist believed that difficulties for the workers were deliberately timed for these periods by management to allow public pressure to be brought to bear. There wasn’t much ‘relationship’ in ‘industrial relations” in that industry at that time.

        • riffer 2.3.1.3
          16 November 2017 at 10:11 am

          Jesus, talk about false equivalence. Shortly after the National government there was a Global Financial collapse and an earthquake. We didn’t blame that on them.

          Correct me if I’m wrong, but if an employer refuses to bargain and the only power you have is to strike, then holding a strike at a time convenient to the general public is hardly going to sway the employer to come back to the bargaining table is it?

          All it would have taken to avert the strike was for Transdev to come back to the bargaining table. They have, instead, bet on the strike leading the general public to turn against the union. Classic industrial move.

          You could just as easily have come out and said “look at that – we get a Labour government and all of a sudden there’s employers forcing unions to use the only power they have left”.

          Except that most of the bastardry took place under a National government. Sigh…

          • greywarshark 2.3.1.3.1
            16 November 2017 at 11:10 am

            The old union strain:
            All it would have taken to avert the strike was for Transdev to come back to the bargaining table. They have, instead, bet on the strike leading the general public to turn against the union. Classic industrial move.

            and if ….the only power you have is to strike, then holding a strike at a time convenient to the general public is hardly going to sway the employer to come back to the bargaining table is it?

            Some of us care about railway workers and them being treated fairly. Some don’t. Some of us care about young people not having their education disrupted. Who knows, it might lead some in that cohort to being able to tackle the economic system so it works for all.

            Certainly though, having a strike during exam time is a kick in the guts for the anxious students, a strike against railway workers and organisers who seem self-centred and lacking the brains to understand education is important, and another strike against unions. The railway workers have not done anything for positive attitudes to unions and should have planned their strike judiciously, because there will be all sorts on consequences, some legal.

            • CLEANGREEN 2.3.1.3.1.1
              16 November 2017 at 12:32 pm

              Good comments Greywarshark;

              But in reality there is no perfect “judiciousl” time to strike, but since the new ‘progresive’ government now have only two weeks left operating as a “government in parliament” (according to the Radio NZ midday news)

              I wager the RMTU had very little time to begin a “industrial strike” expecially when we don’t really know how the transdev workers contract system is working for or against them all at this time.?

              Just the consideration that Wayne Buston did say the RMTU union members have not no strike action for 25 yrs!!!!!

              We should give them some grace to be fair.

              • greywarshark …
                16 November 2017 at 3:26 pm

                Trouble it is an own goal. If there were reasons why they had to do it just now, let them EXPLAIN not just expect popular sympathy.

            • tracey 2.3.1.3.1.2
              16 November 2017 at 3:19 pm

              Perhaps the employer, having received advance notice of the strike for that important day could have tried harder to resolve it. In a country that has so eroded pay and work conditions the “couldnt they have chosen a better time” is a form of victim blaming. We see DHBs behave the same when they force nurses and drs out of sheer frsutration to withdraw their services.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.3.1.4
          16 November 2017 at 4:13 pm

          There is a rock-solid link between increased unionism and better worker pay and conditions. This is a very good thing and these benefits to society massively outweigh the occasional industrial dispute, in my opinion (and those disputes are as likely to be the fault of the employer as the union / workers)

          One example

          https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/impact-trade-unions-jobs-and-pay

          • greywarshark 2.3.1.4.1
            17 November 2017 at 6:12 pm

            It’s irritating to people who are just getting by to hear the general good cited when they are confronting the particular and individual pain.l Basically it is applying economic theory and ‘principle’ which doesn’t look at an alternative and presses forward with plans which leave those who lose out just externalities.

            No-one, unionist, or not wants to be one of those disposable, crushable human ‘externalities’. So were the railways forced to go on strike this week because of unalterable timetables, or was it done in a determined move to act NOW no matter what, or was it chosen to hurt people and create controversy because of the timing.

            This is what the Cooks and Stewards were wont to do on school holidays. I suggest that they didn’t make people feel that they were being treated fairly by other working men and women. That drove an unforgettable division between them and the other ordinary strugglers and small businesses.

    • DH 2.4
      16 November 2017 at 7:51 am

      “So that didn’t take long for the strikes to begin,….”

      It’s rather telling you focus on the strike and not the reason for it. One might also note it didn’t take long for the new (foreign) contractor to shaft their workers.

      • tracey 2.4.1
        16 November 2017 at 3:20 pm

        Emboldened by a system that gave us hobbit laws and systematically sought to undermine conditions and pay.

    • Robert Guyton 2.5
      16 November 2017 at 3:27 pm

      Elegant as!

  3. chris73 3
    16 November 2017 at 7:22 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11944462

    Ok so this tops anything anyone has done thus far in Labour or National

      • James 3.1.1
        16 November 2017 at 7:47 am

        Here let me help you.

        From the policy:

        “Similarly if you act like a machine (ie a troll) you will be treated as one – a form of spambot. A troll is generally defined on this site as someone who clearly isn’t bothering to engage their brain when commenting. The standard is that the troll could be replaced with a dictionary of lines and phrases, and no-one would know the difference. Typically trolls do not interact with other commentators as they either ignore what others say in reply or write a reply that ignores what they said. In either case it is ignorant, anti-social, annoying to read, and will often result in a banning so that others don’t have to read the comments of someone living with their sense organs turned off.”

        • Ed 3.1.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 7:51 am

          I engaged at 2.
          Then I realised at 3 you weren’t interested in meaningful debate.

          • James 3.1.1.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 8:05 am

            I wasn’t debating you. But this is standard behaviour with you – you do the troll (often the single word as your entire reply) accusation with monotonous regularity.

            Read the policy. Because you are being a boring and predictable troll.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.2
            16 November 2017 at 8:59 am

            Pretty sure you’ve been warned about this before Ed. Give it a rest please.

    • Cinny 3.2
      16 November 2017 at 8:03 am

      Geez Chris if that’s all you’ve got to moan about life is pretty good.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 8:24 am

        For some people its a very big deal, this is the defence minister, the one that makes the big decisions, a former serving officer and he can’t even put his medals on correctly

        • crashcart 3.2.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 11:34 am

          Hey PR how do your wear your medals? I wear mine how they were mounted by the company paid to do it. I have no idea if that is the wrong order but really it is a minor issue as far as I and any of the other currently serving military personal I talked to this morning are concerned.

            • crashcart 3.2.1.1.1.1
              16 November 2017 at 2:29 pm

              Not going to answer my original question then? Guess that confirms you are one of those who is more than happy to feel offended on behalf of service people without ever actually serving.

              Yea we did talk about the claims that he was SAS. There have been a few over the years who have claimed it and they have always been caught out when not true.

              Here’s the thing. Nothing in what you have linked show Mark claiming that he was in the SAS. A reporter appears to have made a mistake and unless you can point to the quote where he made the claim then you might need to try shifting the goal posts again.

              There may be an issue from the original report and that is the wearing of his Oman medals. It is made clear when you receive these types of medals that they are not to be worn without specific approval. If he didn’t get this then he should cop a bit of flack for it. Lets be clear though, it would be for wearing medals he earned but shouldn’t wear as opposed to the common issue you see on ANZAC of people wearing medals they bought off the internet.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                16 November 2017 at 2:46 pm

                *Sigh* I have three medals I’m entitled to wear from my service and I could apply for a fourth, due to time served

                No but he certainly didn’t go out of his way to issue a correction so he was more than happy to have people assume he was

                Lets be clear about all this, “The standard you walk by is the standard you accept”, you of all people should know this

                • Exkiwiforces …
                  16 November 2017 at 3:29 pm

                  I was discussing this a couple of weekends ago over beers, which result in a very hearty debate about RM. Like me, RM’s last serving country was Oman natural these medals come first with his NZ medals last and my case the ADF medals first with NZ medal last followed by a ET Government medal as per the manual of dress (note I have been pinged as Walter Mittie in the UK and in NZ with my rack of gongs, headdress, tie etc). Now the Grey area that RM find himself in as the MoD does put his NZ first and the Oman medals last, but if he was in the NZDF this would be the case as per the manual of dress. As a minister of the crown does this apply as per the NZDF manual of dress or as he is a civilian does last country of service comes first with NZ medals last.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    16 November 2017 at 3:35 pm

                    I’m not au fait with this by any stretch of the imagination but I’d go strait to the NZDF to get a decision and if its still a grey area then go with common sense, hes the MoD of NZ therefore he wears NZs medals first (has a bit of a ring to it)

                    NZ medals First not NZ medals Second 🙂

                    • exkiwiforces …
                      16 November 2017 at 4:44 pm

                      Fair call, i’m not going to argue over it. I’ve got bloody 9 or 10 can’t bloody remember how many of these bloody things I’ve got plus a MUC and be i’ll ****ed if some muppet came along demanding me to change them around as i’ll telling them where to stick their bloody finger up somewhere because my NZ Medal is second last on my rack.

                      Also i’m getting sick and tired of explaining what every medal is and what order they should be when I go to the tailors when I’m given another one. I got pinged last week for not having the RAAF Ground Combat Badge and my reply was **** off as I’m starting to look a bloody yank or have more chrome than second hand car dealer.

                      Its bad a enough with the jokes a work like, where’s your wheelchair or your zigger fame kiwi for those gongs etc

                      The only plus side is I get to go to a lot cocktail parties.

                • crashcart …
                  16 November 2017 at 3:30 pm

                  The standard you walk by is a very true statement. However it is hardly his responsibility to issue a correction for someone else’s error. For all you know he contacted them and told them he wasn’t in the SAS and they felt it wasn’t important enough to correct.

                  I am no NZ1st supporter but this is a pretty minor point to get hung up on.

                  By the way you should probably apply for that 3 year medal other wise you will out of the rig of the day at next ANZAC day. Standard I walk by and all.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    16 November 2017 at 3:41 pm

                    In my defence it came in after i’d left and I’d only just recently learned of it 🙂

                    But seriously the real reason is that when i look at the old guys with their chests full of medals and i rock up with four then I’d feel like a bit of…not fake but…not quite as…worthy?

                    • crashcart …
                      16 November 2017 at 3:44 pm

                      I know what you mean there. I know a lot of currently serving personnel who don’t wear their medals on ANZAC simply because they don’t feel they hold a feather to what the old boys did for theirs.

          • In Vino 3.2.1.1.2
            16 November 2017 at 5:41 pm

            Personally, I wear my medals very privately on any trousers that still have buttons in the fly.

      • CLEANGREEN 3.2.2
        16 November 2017 at 8:27 am

        James is like Paula bennett, both are exhibiting the signs of ‘battle fatigue’.

        My advise to paula and james is to take a break andplan xmas for family as we are so tired of your consant trolling.

  4. Cinny 4
    16 November 2017 at 8:00 am

    Morena, if you have elderly neighbours, keep an eye on them please.

    Yesterday I heard the firewood truck arrive at the oldies house next door, I couldn’t hear anyone helping Mr 80 with the wood, so I went over to check. There he was kneeling on the ground half slumped over a wheel barrow, trying ever so hard to do it himself, to the point he was about to collapse. After telling him off and making him sit down, my friend and myself took over and made sure all his wood was stacked.

    See the oldies will try and be independent until their last breath, they find it hard to ask for help because they think that everyone wants something. He wanted to pay us for helping, I’m like get real, that’s not how I roll. He’s like but it’s not right you doing all of this for nothing, nah whats not right is him stacking the wood in his state, turns out he’s going in for an operation in a couple of weeks.

    So please keep an eye on the oldies, teach the kids to respect them and help them. Oldies are so important, stubborn, vulnerable and awesome.

    • Puckish Rogue 4.1
      16 November 2017 at 8:28 am

      Next time ask for a cup of tea 🙂 But seriously good job

    • eco maori 4.2
      16 November 2017 at 8:57 am

      My thoughts exactly Cinny we must look after all OUR elderly people as they use to look after us. We must teach our moko to look after all our vulnerable people.

      To Brodie your very Kiwi personality will be missed and It’s a shame you are leaving Breakfast . But I’m sure you will keep having a positive effect on our New Zealand Society with your new job all the best to you many thanks for your support there is a bigger picture to this story Ka pai

      Now I no that they have sent people into my wifes work and now they are breaching her privacy rights . I.m not stupid my wife does not no how power full Eco Maori is .
      I just tell her that the Eco Maori sign on my truck are just to boost my blog viewers. So a lot of people know about my fight for equality for all humans and for Mother Earth . These people who are attacking my credibility will say and do anything to under me and my whano and won’t give a fuck who they hurt in the prosess I no that the people can see this with the actions these people take to try and steal my Mana .
      The fools are just adding to my MANA many thanks to them for this is my fate .
      Kia Kaha

    • riffer 4.3
      16 November 2017 at 10:14 am

      Bless you Cinny. Good work.

    • patricia bremner 4.4
      16 November 2017 at 10:36 am

      God bless you Cinny. 4 We all need neighbors like you. Norman and I struggle to do the big physical tasks now, and have learned to be thankful for help.

      We have a firewood guy who does the wood in disposable bags. This is not much dearer but easier to stack and bring in as needed. May help someone else xx

    • McFlock 4.5
      16 November 2017 at 2:44 pm

      onya

    • One Two 4.6
      16 November 2017 at 3:58 pm

      Cinny, good on you and your friend..

      An important message..

  5. CLEANGREEN 5
    16 November 2017 at 8:31 am

    Cinny,

    You are a real gem.

    Pity we all dont have a past government that allowed it to come to this.

    I am 73 also and grew up duing the 1950s with a profound respect for the elderly.

    But that attitude has all but vanished today untill good peope like you demostrate how shallow and un-caring our society is today.

    Bless you Cinny.

    • Ffloyd 5.1
      16 November 2017 at 9:43 am

      Totally agree CG. The world needs more people like Cinny. The BEST sort of neighbor to have. A big wraparound hug to you Cinny.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1
        16 November 2017 at 11:47 am

        That was nice Cinny and very welcome to the person involved.

        Unwelcome though, is any attempt to actually look at the situation the country is in with increased ageing and dying long after people are incapacitated mentally, internally, bodily with lack of mobility or all of them. How many operations for people over 80? How can we manage our hospitals while we have a government that can’t take a clear direction from people as to how the priorities should go and have them enshrined in law and properly funded? I think that this means that an op needed for a very young child should be performed ahead of one for someone over 70 if there was a priority situation.

        Everyone wants to be considered as part of a democracy, but don’t want to be registered when it comes to a workshop on deciding future political actions and what is the most ethical way to manage them. So everyone get warm fuzzies about helping others, which should be encouraged but also get out there and look at the looming problems that our poor hospital staff are coping with. Doing your bit as responsible mature people pushing the government is a less immediate way of helping others.

        There are people who are working on in NZ still under the principles and practices that we had as a decent country that attempted consideration for everybody and didn’t treat every part of life as a potential opportunity for a business, for someone to profit from. Those people working hard are being driven into the ground. But when citizens request law changes that will have an ameliorating effect they get ignored by the don’t-do-nothing-till I tell-you Nat government and we hope that won’t extend on to the present.

        In the meantime we can’t have the right to euthanasia when we want it, I think from the age of 70 without having to make a case as being terminally ill. At 75 (my age) I’m still useful to others and myself but I will have to take a back seat sometime after a fall etc and have no wish to wait long enough to get alzheimerrs or become so unsettled I get paranoic. That is just one aspect of our need to discuss health, treatment, and what can be afforded and that one can make a rational and ethical case for. Would it be better to fund hospices so people who are terminally ill can get their last year of two with good care, but less expensive life-extending treatment. It is complex.

        Isn’t it time that we had a Citizen Policy Information and Planning Group (PIP)? A small pip could lead to growing a healthy system. We can’t trust the advisors or academics, they have mind control applied by their university board or the government treating them as puppets to be jerked when required, they can be informed but take a slant that is personality-based or individually advantaged, and should be listened to and then tested against others.

        • Cinny 5.1.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 4:27 pm

          Am no angel lmao, but my folks are good people, looking out for neighbours and oldies is what I was taught, what I’m teaching my kids, we are trying to change the world 🙂

          I wonder if ‘helpful neighbour’ is not so common anymore because many people are unable to own their own home. If everyone was able to own their place, some how, would they feel more secure, be more friendly, stronger communities, better communication etc etc etc?

          Hey that’s a great idea ‘PIP’. Do we now have a Minister for Seniors? Having a vision of seniors winz, with a classy name, no security guards, full of info and networking, a place they can get their pension sorted that they are proud and happy to go to. A Seniors HUB.

          It’s a concern that some see the oldies as ‘cash cows’ exploiting the vulnerable. Rest homes, home help, Dr’s etc. I wonder how that is monitored?

  6. esoteric pineapples 6
    16 November 2017 at 8:50 am

    It was the centenary of the Russian Revolution about a week ago and yet this hugely significant event has past almost completely unnoticed.

    “The Soviet Union will be looked at in history, not as the end of Communism but as its first valiant experiment…… It will be the petre dish where Communists and Socialists will learn from – not reject.”

    • CLEANGREEN 6.1
      16 November 2017 at 8:57 am

      100% EP.

    • millsy 6.2
      16 November 2017 at 10:02 am

      I’m sure people don’t miss:

      Monitoring of people’s activities.
      Mass imprisonment
      People forced from their jobs on the basis of flimsy accusations
      …oh wait..

      • adam 6.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 10:27 am

        You mean a bit like where this neoteric liberalism is leading us.

        All authoritarianism looks the same in the end, be it left or right.

        No one in their right mind would argue against the Russian Revolution going off the rails during the civil war, and the rise of the bolsheviks. For a few months, people, average stiffs actually had control of their lives away from monarchs, leaders, and authoritarian types. People, average people threw off the shackles of oppression. Yeah they were duped, and as always some bloke and his ego took over, then crushed the whole thing.

        But you gotta love the fact this was a revolution by the people, for the people that almost worked. Unlike the USA one which was by the rich and for the rich – with very clever use of language.

        • marty mars 6.2.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 10:35 am

          I put it in the who gives a fuck catagory – for a few months this or that – meanwhile for a few decades the opposite of worker freedoms and rights. There are lessons to learn from the revolution but using it as a template for revolution today isn’t one of them imo.

          Edit prob a bit harsh – I stand with the sentiment that started the Russian revolution and I get that some, including lefties commemorate the event. Sorry for being disrespectful to you.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2
          16 November 2017 at 2:42 pm

          But you gotta love the fact this was a revolution by the people, for the people that almost worked. Unlike the USA one which was by the rich and for the rich – with very clever use of language.

          QFT

      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.2
        16 November 2017 at 2:41 pm

        Of course we don’t miss those – they happen all the time as John Key and National passing legislation to respectively make it all legal proved.

      • tracey 6.2.3
        16 November 2017 at 3:23 pm

        Persecution of Jews, homosexuals, disabled

      • tracey 6.2.4
        16 November 2017 at 3:24 pm

        Stalin deserves as much vilification as Hitler yet… and in Russia todsy being a homosexual still gets you hard labour.

    • Ad 6.3
      16 November 2017 at 10:33 am

      I noted it.

    • Molly 7.1
      16 November 2017 at 12:48 pm

      Thanks for that mm.

      Had a quick look at the Waingakau village site, and the development will be a combination of 76 co-housing units, with 44 normal subdivision properties.

      “This development will deliver high quality homes at approximately $2025 per square metre – this cost was the average quality build cost for Hawke’s Bay as at August 2017. Waingakau is affordable as the homes will have a compact footprint, so will use less materials and energy, and the land is cheaper. As an initial indication, based on these costs homes will be priced from $140,000 to $380,000 for 1 to 4 bedrooms.

      Housing will be available for mixed economic situations from subsidised rental homes, assisted purchase, market rental properties, through to owner occupied properties. If you are interested in buying or long term renting”

      The cohousing development – along with the intended amenities – sounds very much what an indigenous form of housing would be like in NZ. And the structure plan gives a good indication of the benefits of planned housings units with shared spaces. I would enjoy living in one of those units I’m sure.

      I wonder why they included the conventional housing, and why they are going to release those on the market? Whether it was just too big a move away from convention for the stakeholders, or if it was that a return was required to get the project off the ground. The 44 conventional houses appear to take up the same area as the 76 cohousing units and associated marae and community hub.

      (Unfortunately, participating in the market does have an effect on their concern regarding affordable homes in the long-term).

      The “affordability” seems to be closer to the real meaning of the word than when it is usually used. I hope that the interest in the cohousing component is such that it ends up comprising most of the development.

  8. adam 8
    16 November 2017 at 10:31 am

    Just wondering where the government was on medical cannabis?

    http://healthy-life-box.com/marijuana-chewing-gum-relieve-fibromyalgia-pain/

  9. dv 9
    16 November 2017 at 10:52 am

    Pay day loans.
    https://www.interest.co.nz/personal-finance/90075/david-chaston-reviews-effective-cost-credit-being-interest-plus-standard-fees

    This is disgraceful
    The % interest for pay day loans
    From 300% to 800% pa

    Many are advertised heavily on TV
    And
    Remember, ‘friendly’ loan companies are always associated with unfriendly collection agencies. Best to avoid getting caught up with any of that.

    Go and look at the article.

  10. OnceWasTim 10
    16 November 2017 at 10:58 am

    Key’s “We’ll do whatever it takes” should have read “Someone else will do whatever it takes”:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-16/pike-river-mine-body-search/9155184

  11. patricia bremner 11
    16 November 2017 at 11:09 am

    An interesting piece of news in interest.co.nz

    Australia has decided to tax overseas buyers who leave properties empty thousands.

    Further they will not be able to claim travel to check their purchase.

    Sounds sensible to me, as it may then be more profitable to let them out?

    • savenz 11.1
      16 November 2017 at 2:52 pm

      They can claim travel as a tax deductible! Shocking! No wonder so many people are buying up houses who don’t live in the country!

      There should also be an extra yearly charge like rates but going to the government for houses owned by non residents.

      And a stamp duty for non residents.

      Look what a capital gains tax achieved in Canada for non residents.

      If you are not banning non resident buyers there should at least be ways for the locals to get some sort of tax out of it.

  12. Morrissey 12
    16 November 2017 at 11:10 am

    GROPERS
    No. 1: George Walker Herbert Bush

    “My initial action was absolute horror. I was really, really confused. The first thing I did was look at my mum and, while he was still standing there, I didn’t say anything. What does a teenager say to the ex-president of the United States?”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/13/sixth-woman-accuses-former-president-george-hw-bush-groping/

    http://time.com/5019182/george-hw-bush-groping-allegation/

    “GROPERS” is researched and presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

  13. eco maori 13
    16 November 2017 at 11:28 am

    I can read the confidence of my oppressors just by observing my neighbors and one of them is my main oppressor he imposes his ideological neo liberal view on the rest of my neighbors and 3 family’s have left because of this peacock . I thought of crowd funding to hire a lawyer to represent me but with the amount of resources they are pouring into monitoring everything I do. I no they will stop that as they have stopped me from getting legal Representation on many occasions . They are digging and scraping at the hole they have dug into my past and as soon as they think they smell shit they spread it around as if it is fact and nothing is fact until it is proven to be fact isn’t that what our law states on no not for a poor Maori let’s get this strait the same applies to any poor person in our western society it is just that Maori get more discrimination than the rest of the other cultures in our paradise called New Zealand. .

    I have challenged them on many occasions to arrest me and lets have the courts decide whom is breaking OUR laws so why wont they arrest me and get It over and done with are they will get there asses handed to them and that’s why they won’t arrest me. I have ask to negotiate but no they don’t negotiate with a poor Maori.
    So what should this tell you that us poor Maori cultured people need to join together and stop any bullshit happening to OUR moko’s and to make sure that our moko have a bright future and not a future under the bridge or in jail. Kia Kaha

    • eco maori 13.1
      16 November 2017 at 11:51 am

      P.S at least they have stop blasting the neighbor hood with there sirens this was quite a frequent well come home experance for me as my neighbor’s can confirm Ka pai .

    • BM 13.2
      16 November 2017 at 12:38 pm

      I recommend you go see a mental health professional as soon as possible, you seem to be suffering from acute paranoia.

      [deleted]

      please don’t attempt to armchair diagnose – weka]

      • CLEANGREEN 13.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 12:46 pm

        BM = as usual you have the soul of a empty vessel.

        • marty mars 13.2.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 2:20 pm

          Actually he was being compassionate imo

          • Antoine 13.2.1.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 2:36 pm

            I am finding it really weird how none of the lefties around here are making the effort to help eco maori. (But perhaps they are, e.g. by sending him private messages)

            A.

            • marty mars 13.2.1.1.1.1
              16 November 2017 at 2:56 pm

              Maybe they are scared to do or say anything I think. They may also be worried because they might say the wrong thing and also because he uses Māori in their handle. Personally ive been worried about that poster for a while but it is a mod issue not a commenter issue imo.

              • weka …
                16 November 2017 at 3:23 pm

                I see it as a community issue here (i.e. both mods and commenters).

                EM comments about politics all the time, just like everyone else here. So there is no need to moderate from the perspective.

                We have people with a huge range of mental health capacities and illness here. I don’t see that as being an issue myself.

                If you ever have concerns about someone acutely you can either email Lynn (who I guess can make a decision about whether its ok to keep publishing comments*), or you can grab the attention of one of the moderators.

                For the commenters, I suggest not being mean to people perceived as struggling.

                *personally, I don’t think that someone having mental health issues should preclude them from commenting so long as their comments aren’t causing a problem for the site legally or in terms of the community getting wound up or threads getting derailed (i.e. same rules apply as to anyone), but I’m not sure if it’s ever been discussed in the back end.

                • marty mars …
                  16 November 2017 at 3:46 pm

                  We all work with what people write and that is all we get.

                  If the mods are okay I’m certainly not going to do anything apart from being compassionate when I deem appropriate and skimming their comments the rest of the time.

                  Doing something, doing nothing – both can be difficult if a person is having mental health issues.

                  • weka …
                    16 November 2017 at 4:50 pm

                    yes, and doing normal is an option too 🙂

                    • marty mars …
                      16 November 2017 at 5:26 pm

                      Just to clarify a few points.

                      I work in mental health. I have been focusing on mental health for colonised indigenous peoples particuarily around suicide prevention for Māori for all age groups.

                      That is where I’m coming from I’m not diagnosing anyone and my only interest in this subthread is about ensuring people are okay which is why I said bms initial comment was compassionate.

                      I am not engaging in this subthread anymore.

              • Whispering Kate …
                16 November 2017 at 4:31 pm

                Leave Eco Maori be, personally I read his threads and like what he writes. Okay he can be a bit odd but so what, this makes life a bit more edgy and interesting. God forbid we all should be the same, I for one, would die of boredom. And, by the way every one of us is a bit odd to some people some of the time, you’d better believe it.

                What’s a little paranoia anyway – if more people had their antennae up and were more tuned in then this world would be a better place.

                Hang in there Eco Maori – we’re all in this together.

                • weka …
                  16 November 2017 at 4:49 pm

                  That’s similar to how I feel. We have no way of knowing what is going for a person. I don’t read all of EM’s comments but as far as I can tell he’s talking about politics and life most of the time. And yep re appearing odd, what’s wrong with that anyway?

                  Not too happy with people applying mental health labels to others out of their own discomfit.

                • marty mars …
                  16 November 2017 at 4:55 pm

                  Why are you saying that to me – did you actually read my comments? Try directing your opinion to the right place.

                • CLEANGREEN …
                  16 November 2017 at 8:29 pm

                  Me to Kate i enjoy a chat to eco maori as we both had back on 1.1 & 1.1.1.

                  Leave my friend eco maori be a peace.

                  Mum always taught me to speak out your troubles in your soul and it begins to ease, actually James Taylor sang a song about this exactly in the 1970’s when I was a lonely kiwi in canada & very lonely and it warmed my soul then.

                  Here’s one for you eco maori. – shower the peole you love with love, show them the way you feel.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWQS5fWxxU

            • McFlock 13.2.1.1.1.2
              16 November 2017 at 2:58 pm

              Saying what, even if it were possible?

              There’s not many options available to help an pseudonymous poster, and any intervention by mods (who might actually have a legit email address to contact eco) is between the two of them, none of our business. And maybe eco’s posts really are part of a cunning plan, like they say they are. Who knows?

              The comments don’t seem to be escalating in intensity or focussing on individuals, so that’s a plus if eco really is having psych issues. And eco’s referred to spouse and family, so if there’s a problem they’d be better placed to persuade eco to get help.

              • weka …
                16 November 2017 at 3:26 pm

                Also, we have no way of knowing what kind of help any person is getting or not. Add that to the fact that getting help can too often be something that harms people, I think really from this distance it’s none of our business until someone asks here for support. The exception to that would be if someone sounded like they were harming themselves or others, but again (as above) that’s a rule that applies to everyone.

            • savenz 13.2.1.1.1.3
              16 November 2017 at 3:05 pm

              The nuisance neighbour syndrome is expanding at the same rate as road rage (increasing) and they seem to have similar issues.

              Too many people in NZ and expanding at the 3rd highest rate per capita in the world. Councils are useless at keeping the bylaws. They are also obsessed with allowing out of scope development everywhere turning communities into war zones.

              Sometimes like the Kaipara council they just screw over the rate payers and bankrupt themselves and then get their ratepayers to bail them out when they plan their pie in the sky expansions.

              Or with Auckland council just screw everyone over which explains the Auckland council’s extremely low rating from the public, who appear to hate them for the most part. Funny that this low international rating does not seem to impact on their pay levels?

              • savenz …
                16 November 2017 at 3:25 pm

                Sympathy for Eco Maori – if the Neighbour has caused 3 neighbours to move he sounds like a nightmare nuisance neighbour!

            • weka 13.2.1.1.1.4
              16 November 2017 at 3:17 pm

              I am finding it really weird how none of the lefties around here are making the effort to help eco maori. (But perhaps they are, e.g. by sending him private messages)

              I would have thought the criteria for helping someone who is struggling would be that one is compassionate/gives a shit. But interesting to see that as a righty you believe that is the responsibility of left wingers.

            • tracey 13.2.1.1.1.5
              16 November 2017 at 3:26 pm

              What have you done?

              • Antoine …
                16 November 2017 at 10:37 pm

                I have been replying to his posts on a “you should seek help” basis which up until now no one else has bothered to do. The “lefty” reference may annoy some but at least it has got some people to engage on the issue.

                A.

            • Psycho Milt 13.2.1.1.1.6
              16 November 2017 at 3:47 pm

              I am finding it really weird how none of the lefties around here are making the effort to help eco maori.

              I find that not making ignorance-based diagnoses of someone’s mental health on the basis of a few blog comments is often helpful.

  14. Philip Ferguson 14
    16 November 2017 at 11:38 am

    You’d think it would be easy to simply scrap the Hobbit legislation and the 90-day legislation. But the backtracking has already begun.

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/what-the-90-days-and-hobbit-legislation-reforms-tell-us-about-the-labour-led-government/

  15. weka 15
    16 November 2017 at 12:24 pm

    Can someone please explain to me how and why Gareth Morgan is paying less than 4% tax?

    “Totally agree, my current tax rate is under 4%, & I’m about to get NZS. This is a real issue, not what gossip columnists in NZ focus on”

    https://twitter.com/HighbornHavenot/status/930937245946613760

    • CLEANGREEN 15.1
      16 November 2017 at 12:41 pm

      Geez weka

      We alll need a good accountant like Gareth hughes must have.

      Only pays 4% tax what a bloody hypocrit!!!!

      And a bloody leech.

      • mac1 15.1.1
        16 November 2017 at 2:10 pm

        Gareth who?

        Hughes and Morgan are both Welsh names but only one I know is welshing on his social responsibilities.

        • savenz 15.1.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 3:39 pm

          Gareth Meowgan

          • mac1 15.1.1.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 4:14 pm

            Reading that calls to mind Felix, that sharp and wise commentator formerly here. He/She is missed.

        • CLEANGREEN 15.1.1.2
          16 November 2017 at 9:04 pm

          OOOPPPs Big mistake there,

          Thanks Mac1

          Not Gareth Hughes!!!!! so sorry Gareth Hughes.

          I of course meant Gareth Morgan, as he is a very insensitive rich prick.

          My friend Gareth Hughes is a moderately humble man we see around his & mine Gisborne area now and then.

          No simalarity there sorry Gareth Hughes my silly slipup.
          Please accept my humble appologies.

          • mac1 15.1.1.2.1
            16 November 2017 at 9:16 pm

            No problem, cleangreen. Gave me a chance to make a pun on the Welsh/welsh whatever his fecking name is (literary reference to Irish plays by Padraic MacDonagh.)

            I don’t know Gareth Hughes at all. But he seems a Very Earnest Young Man, as opposed to the World-Weary Bored Nouveau Riche Biker Entrepreneur with a Token Social Conscience.

      • savenz 15.1.2
        16 November 2017 at 3:38 pm

        A lot of money equals money for accountants = using the legal but generally unknown loopholes to pay less taxes.

        The trick for government is to close the loopholes.

        It’s way worse now, as people can just flit all over the world and reside anywhere more convenient and use even more loopholes.

        The real money is made on paper.

        Still seems weird Gareth is paying so little though when he seems to actually want to pay tax. Imagine what’s going on with the people who don’t want to pay tax or are criminals!

    • Dv 15.2
      16 November 2017 at 12:58 pm

      He doesn’t have to take super

      • weka 15.2.1
        16 November 2017 at 1:12 pm

        yes, it will be interesting to see if he applies for it. One would hope not and that he was just trying to make a point in the tweet.

        • mauī 15.2.1.1
          17 November 2017 at 10:04 am

          Much of his campaign was based around changing super because he didn’t need it and he would just end up wasting that money.

          My guess is he’ll be getting super to follow through on his campaign promise.

    • DH 15.3
      16 November 2017 at 1:00 pm

      He probably invests in growth shares or property. Except for speculating capital gain on shares isn’t taxed, only the dividends are taxable.

      • weka 15.3.1
        16 November 2017 at 1:11 pm

        I was wondering if he had set his affairs differently if he would be paying more tax. e.g. he could be drawing paye income from his businesses and paying normal income tax.

        • DH 15.3.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 1:31 pm

          Only he could tell us but I expect it’s just playing with numbers. By all accounts he’s pretty frugal and he got a fair old windfall when his son sold Trademe. He probably doesn’t spend much of his investment earnings and may only pay tax on the drawings. The top tax rate is 33% so if he only spend an eighth of his earnings, and the rest was in growth funds & the likes, then you’d get the 4% effective tax. (33% divided by 8)

          • weka 15.3.1.1.1
            16 November 2017 at 1:38 pm

            why would the 7/8th not be taxed?

            I mean, if I put $100K in the bank and earned interest on that, wouldn’t that interest be taxable income? ie. RWT, the rate of which I think is determined by general income tax rate for that person.

            • DH 15.3.1.1.1.1
              16 November 2017 at 1:50 pm

              It would be taxed if you put it in the bank. That’s basically a cash transaction and you can’t call it anything but income.

              Shares and property are different. If you buy shares for $1 each, and they go up in value to $2 each, there’s no tax on that gain. (unless the IRD decide you bought the shares expressly for the gain.)

              As I said I’m just speculating but he was a Kiwisaver provider for a while so i’d expect him to have some pretty good advisors on growth funds and may have invested a lot of his dosh into that market.

              • weka …
                16 November 2017 at 2:06 pm

                Speculating is fine, and the explanations are good.

                “If you buy shares for $1 each, and they go up in value to $2 each, there’s no tax on that gain. (unless the IRD decide you bought the shares expressly for the gain.)”

                Sorry, what? What other purpose is there in buying dividend paying shares apart from for gain?

                Property I understand, although if you buy and sell too often you will get taxed right?

                Investments, are you saying that mostly people aren’t paying tax on investment income?

                The other way to ask my question is, could Morgan have been a businessman and paid more tax by choosing different ways of using his money? That’s a differentiation between wanting to do business (i.e. something useful) and simply making money.

                • syclingmad …
                  16 November 2017 at 2:21 pm

                  Confusing income and capital. Income is always taxed, currently capital is not.

                  Income from bank deposits = interest, which is taxed (usually RWT)

                  Income from shares = dividends, which are also taxed at marginal rate of the investor

                  Income from property = rent, which is taxed in the same way as dividends

                  Value of shares and property can (and has) increase, that gain is currently not taxed in NZ unless you declare yourself as a “professional investor or speculator” (or IRD declares you to be) in which case those gains are taxed only when they are realised (shares or property are sold) at the marginal rate just like other forms of income

                  GM will be paying 4% effective tax because of the way he has structured his investments using trusts with himself as a beneficiary.

                  • weka …
                    16 November 2017 at 3:11 pm

                    how is professional investor/speculator status determined? Would that apply to Morgan?

                    “GM will be paying 4% effective tax because of the way he has structured his investments using trusts with himself as a beneficiary.”

                    So Trusts don’t have to pay tax?

                    • DH …
                      16 November 2017 at 3:45 pm

                      It can all get confusing can’t it weka, including to me. Kiwisaver providers for example are nearly all PIEs (portfolio investment entities) and as such Kiwisavers are not required to pay tax on capital gains on shares even though the providers are, obviously, professional investors acting on our behalf.

                      The short answer to the inevitable question is “because they’re all doing it too”.

                      The trust one confused me there too. Trusts don’t have any tax breaks I know of, they pay the same tax rates as the rest us, so I’d be interested in knowing how using trusts can minimise your tax.

                    • weka …
                      16 November 2017 at 4:52 pm

                      “Kiwisaver providers for example are nearly all PIEs (portfolio investment entities) and as such Kiwisavers are not required to pay tax on capital gains on shares even though the providers are, obviously, professional investors acting on our behalf.”

                      ok, but that’s two different things right? Morgan as a business owner (of an investment firm) and Morgan has someone who has his own Kiwisaver. I assume they get taxed differently.

                      Still not quite seeing how Morgan ends up paying less than 4% tax.

                    • DH …
                      16 November 2017 at 5:34 pm

                      I’m not sure he is a business owner any more… is he? I read some time back he’d sold or disposed of Gareth Morgan investments and I’ve been assuming his income is derived from his personal investments.

                    • syclingmad …
                      16 November 2017 at 9:00 pm

                      It’s hard to explain but here goes…

                      Trusts do pay tax on their income, to keep it simple let’s say a trust has all its capital invested in shares then it will pay tax on the dividends. If a trust distributes all of its income (dividends in this example) to its beneficiaries then the trust doesn’t pay tax, the beneficiary does. The thing is, quite often the beneficiary marginal rate is lower than the trust tax rate.

                      Even further, sometimes a trust will accumulate its income, dividends in our example, to add to capital. Periodically it can make a “distribution” of capital to beneficiaries. This is untaxed as it is deemed capital and as I said earlier in NZ currently we do not tax capital. Thus the effective tax rate of the beneficiary drops massively.

                      Now I’ve probably confused everyone…

                    • DH …
                      16 November 2017 at 11:34 pm

                      “It’s hard to explain but here goes…”

                      Thanks. I understand most of that but can’t see it significantly reducing tax for the wealthy, the next top rate of 30% cuts in at ‘only’ $48,000 and people like Morgan would surely have earnings in the $millions.

                      I’d think those with serious income would need to use a lot of trusts and then they’d risk being deemed tax evaders by the IRD.

                    • weka …
                      17 November 2017 at 12:10 am

                      @ syclingmad

                      That’s a great explanation and makes sense of something I’ve never understood. My parents have a Trust, they draw on dividends and other income for their own income, and afaik they pay tax (or the Trust does).

                      But what you have just explained is how Trusts are used to work around having to pay tax.

                      Also, capital gains taxes aren’t just about property. Does this mean no capital gains in NZ is taxed?

                      Why do we allow that?

                    • Antoine …
                      17 November 2017 at 12:31 pm

                      syclingmad are you sure that trusts can (still) be used in NZ to evade tax through ‘distributions’ in the way you describe? I do not think that is right. If it worked then everyone would be doing it.

                      A.

                  • tracey …
                    16 November 2017 at 3:30 pm

                    Then he needs to be clearer. Most kiwis view tax as paye. If he didnt want us to think he arranged his affair to reduce his income tax he is being disingenuous

                  • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                    16 November 2017 at 4:20 pm

                    “Value of shares and property can (and has) increase, that gain is currently not taxed in NZ ”

                    And the elephant that is not mentioned – is that this type of wealth stream is almost exclusively the preserve of the already wealthy – and forms the lion’s share of the wealth increase of the very rich. And yet of all the forms of gaining wealth (wages, salary etc) THIS is the one that is entirely or almost entirely tax free!!

              • savenz …
                16 November 2017 at 3:50 pm

                The stupidity is the rule about the speculation of the gain. It should be obvious that people invest in growth shares for the capital gain! IRD should not have to prove that with each individual case.

                They need to get rid of the ‘intention’ and just have the same rule no matter what.

                Also the National government has allowed NZ to become a welfare country to the offshore wealthy. Come here, invest in what have you (property, farms, assets, businesses) and then they make losses or pitiful income and the person never even resides and works here.

                But the family and person can come and use the health system, super and if they fall on hard times (or restructure their affairs) the social welfare system. Win, win.

                There is a massive time bomb brewing.

                Massive expansion of retirement villages being built, but guess what, normal Kiwis can’t afford the fees for the most part, they are being built for when all the offshore working residents chose to retire back in Sunny Nu Zilland. Free health, free retirement fees (if you structure your affairs to have under $200k), free super, etc etc.

                It costs more to retire someone in NZ than the prison system. It’s neoliberal Kafta. Absolute Absurdism.

                The bizarre thing, is that apparently the NZ strategy for migration was to pay for the local superannuation by importing in skilled workers, but it’s turned into creating a much bigger superannuation and health crisis because the rules are so ridiculous to get around and the people being imported in are often on minimal wages and have to be subsidised themselves and the family members will need retirement. It’s adding to NZ social welfare problems not as was proposed helping them.

    • Bill 15.4
      16 November 2017 at 1:22 pm

      I guess it’s a reference to the fact much of his wealth isn’t taxed – just his income.

      • weka 15.4.1
        16 November 2017 at 1:34 pm

        sure, I was just wondering how that worked. i.e. I’m guessing he doesn’t have to do it that way and he could instead set things up so he pays more tax.

      • veutoviper 15.4.2
        16 November 2017 at 3:23 pm

        Exactly, Bill – as i understand it.

        I am no fan of Gareth Morgan by any means, but for years, he himself has been vocal about the fact that people like himself are paying far too little tax.

        Sorry, off out to commitments and don’t have time to find links etc, but there have been stacks of media articles etc over the last 10 ? years with Morgan ranting about the inequalities of the current tax system and the unfair LOW proportion of tax paid by the wealthy.

        • savenz 15.4.2.1
          16 November 2017 at 4:32 pm

          No one really understands it apart from a select few accountants, they new trick seems to be accountants turned politicians who seem to have little morals, John Key, Judith Collins who champion tax loopholes that nobody thinks much of but helps them and super rich cronies to prosper.

          Meanwhile the left hasn’t caught on and still thinking its about the 2nd property of some police office or teacher and losing elections over it, while the .1% turning over hundreds of millions are not even on the radar.

          It was anonymous Samaritans that exposed Panama and Paradise papers and revealed it all, the politicians and their advisers obviously were never going to get to the bottom of it. The media at first refused to print the Panama papers and John Key sent Judith Collins to be our representative on glueing up the tax loopholes. Need we say more!

          • tracey 15.4.2.1.1
            17 November 2017 at 8:14 am

            Collins made a career of it as a tax lawyer. One of the reasons her pretense at not thinking her Oravida behaviour was a conflict of interest , was such a joke.

        • weka 15.4.2.2
          16 November 2017 at 4:44 pm

          “I am no fan of Gareth Morgan by any means, but for years, he himself has been vocal about the fact that people like himself are paying far too little tax.”

          Yes, that’s is a well known issue. But the point I raised was about whether Morgan could be paying a reasonable amount of tax and chooses not to.

          • Antoine 15.4.2.2.1
            17 November 2017 at 2:52 am

            Well of course, he can pay as much tax as he likes. Anyone with a bank account can make voluntary payments to IRD any time. However he does not wish to pay more than is required by law.

            A.

            • tracey 15.4.2.2.1.1
              17 November 2017 at 8:14 am

              I wonder what stops him given his clear anhorrence to it

            • weka 15.4.2.2.1.2
              17 November 2017 at 8:49 am

              Huh, I didn’t know that. How does IRD manage that against someone’s tax accounting?

              • Antoine …
                17 November 2017 at 12:26 pm

                I’m not sure, as I have never felt the desire to donate large sums of money to the IRD!!

                A.

                (Edit: Perhaps at some point one would be offered a refund. There is no obligation however to accept that refund)

    • Andre 15.5
      16 November 2017 at 1:47 pm

      In New Zealand, when you receive dividends from a NZ company, you also get imputation credits for the tax that company has paid. So when you file your personal income taxes, those imputation credits reduce your tax owed. Assuming Morgan declares income over $70k, he’s in the 33% bracket, so he only has to pay the additional tax due from the 5% difference between the company rate of 28% and his personal rate of 33%.

      My understanding is crediting of company tax on dividends is unusual internationally. Australia is the only other country I’m aware of that also does it, the US definitely does not. In the US, dividends are paid after company tax, and the recipient then pays their full income tax on those dividends, so they are taxed twice.

    • tracey 15.6
      16 November 2017 at 3:28 pm

      Um. He gets it cos he deliberately arranged his affairs that way. He could operate in a different way but chooses not to and blames the system.

      A better ststement would be “I could be paying only 4% but have chosen to pay my fair share. It is time we closed access to this behaviour”.

      This just makes him a self righteous wanker

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 15.6.1
        16 November 2017 at 4:22 pm

        True, but it is important that the system does not allow paying tax to be merely a choice for some of the population. The system does need changing.

        • weka 15.6.1.1
          16 November 2017 at 4:46 pm

          I agree, but I also think that if someone wants to be a politician then being someone who games current law for their own ends is problematic. This is worth discussing in public given he makes a point of the low tax rate.

      • weka 15.6.2
        16 November 2017 at 4:23 pm

        A better ststement would be “I could be paying only 4% but have chosen to pay my fair share. It is time we closed access to this behaviour”.

        Thanks, that’s what I was wondering. And how he is doing it. A suggestion above is via Trusts.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 15.6.2.1
          16 November 2017 at 5:55 pm

          Agree, and your point at 15.6.1.1

        • Antoine 15.6.2.2
          17 November 2017 at 2:55 am

          I would have guessed it was untaxed capital gains

          A.

          • syclingmad 15.6.2.2.1
            17 November 2017 at 7:13 am

            Untaxed capital gains it is.

            Effective tax rate is just the tax you pay vs total income (I use that term loosely because by income I mean genuine income + capital gains).

            As capital gains are not taxed, the effective rate is low. Not to be confused with marginal tax rates.

            @weka family trusts are most commonly used to protect relationship property, so it might be that was what your parents were doing. But not always…

          • tracey 15.6.2.2.2
            17 November 2017 at 8:18 am

            He could, for example, calculate what it would be if he had the system he wanted and give it to a charity that houses poor families… and then make his point.

  16. Draco T Bastard 16
    16 November 2017 at 2:12 pm

    Facebook to users: send nudes

    Facebook is asking users to send the company naked photos and videos of themselves so that it can block the images if they are later uploaded as revenge porn.

    A trial of the feature in Australia asks people worried that their intimate pictures might be posted by an ex partner to provide the images to Facebook, so that it knows to prevent them being uploaded in future.

    It’s almost a good idea but I don’t actually want a private corporation to be able to recognise me anywhere in the world.

  17. veutoviper 17
    16 November 2017 at 2:37 pm

    Question Time today

    For anyone interested, in a break with tradition, the PM and the Deputy PM are both in the House for Qtime today. Usually the PM, Opposition Leader are not in the House on Thursdays.

    Winston Peters was sworn in having been overseas with the PM and also there are further Labour MP maiden speeches today after QTime.

    A good session so far – a few laughs and JA and WP did a wonderful tag team act with Question 1 – Paula Bennett asking the PM whether she stands by all her policies. I presume PB expected it to be answered by Kelvin Davis as per all other questions to the PM this week but got JA instead.

    Most of the session so far has been worth watching.

    • ScottGN 17.1
      16 November 2017 at 7:24 pm

      It was good to hear the PM remind the House that it’s a pity the National Party weren’t as enthusiastic about Paid Parental Leave in their 9 years in government as they now, apparently are, in Opposition.

    • tracey 17.2
      17 November 2017 at 8:19 am

      Bennett was very quiet during the election but this past week or so has been front and centre again

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.