Open mike 17/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 17th, 2022 - 111 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

111 comments on “Open mike 17/01/2022 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Dennis Frank 1
    17 January 2022 at 6:46 am

    There's still a strange reluctance to officially designate non-compliant folk Class B citizens. However the two-classes thing is now globalising:

    Bruno Courcelle said he was not overly involved in politics before the pandemic — now the 72-year-old mathematics lecturer is a regular at demonstrations against the vaccine, lockdowns and other Covid control measures.

    His stance has left him at odds with family, friends and colleagues. Speaking to CNN before Christmas, Courcelle was preparing for an uncomfortable festive family dinner.

    "The rest of my family got vaccinated," he said, adding that he has had several arguments with relatives who fail to understand why he has joined the ranks of the anti-vaccination protesters.

    "My wife said 'Please, do not say anything [at the table],'" he said. "I will not start such a discussion myself … [but] I will not stay silent letting leftists say their stupid things."

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/16/europe/europe-covid-unvaccinated-society-cmd-intl/index.html

    Binary division of societies is an ancient phenomenon, traditionally equating left with wrong and right with right, ruled vs rulers, and built into the structure of democracy as govt vs opposition. You can even cite it as natural, deriving from cell division.

    Two years on, and with opinions becoming more entrenched by the day, some experts fear it may be too late to bridge the divide between the authorities and those who have become vociferously opposed to vaccination measures.

    France's President Macron appears to have moved on from appealing to the refuseniks' sense of solidarity — instead he's now hoping to annoy reluctant French citizens into getting their shots by requiring proof of vaccination for access to a range of everyday activities.

    Apartheid is a good model, eh? Harassment morphs into persecution at what point?

    • weka 1.1
      17 January 2022 at 8:43 am

      definitely something we should be sorting out sooner rather than later. And, this was happening before the mandates. Before the pandemic. It's just that we didn't care as much when it was only being done to beneficiaries or poor people.

      The mandates are a new thing, I don't like the way they were done even though they were probably a necessary evil to get the vax rates high. In an ideal world we'd learn from that and put considerable effort into reducing the main drivers of marginalisation (poverty, colonisation) but the majority of NZ wants what Labour does, so we will have to adapt around that.

      Robert G pointed out the other day that some people choosing to not vaccinate were finding creative ways to make their lives good. This is what I see in the people I know too. Not everyone, but it's a definite choice in how to respond. I see the potential for a lot of creative work to be done by this arising counter culture that is quite different than the ones aligning with Qanon etc. I also think it's the kind of response we need going into a climate/eco crisis world: being able to work creatively with restriction will be a highly valued skill as more and more people lose their security and the stability they normally rely on.

      Not that that is new either, but I think we should be talking about it in proactive terms. I have a foot in both camps, being vaccinated and being ok with vaccination as a personal choice and keeping good relationships with people who have chosen not to rather than ostracising them. I listen to their concerns and often agree with them or understand them even though I disagree.

      The liberals on twitter running round posting about which shops to boycott because they put up welcome everyone signs worry me more than the creative, non-complying counter culture. I worry there is a degree of fragility there that won't do well in the coming years.

      The ones of course to really worry about are those without the resources (of all kinds) to manage a creative response to restriction. This is Labour's great failing in not addressing poverty and benefits in the past four years. This is obviously unfair on those people and will come back to bite us.

      • Dennis Frank 1.1.1
        17 January 2022 at 8:54 am

        Like you, I've a foot in both camps & concur with your overview. Ardern's kindness needs to kick in a little more, perhaps. The danger with these divides arises when they are allowed to harden, polarising everyone more fervently. Labour probably feels that the vaccination rate measures the dissidents as a small minority who can be safely marginalised. I'm not so sure that their complacency is sensible.

        • weka 1.1.1.1
          17 January 2022 at 9:34 am

          I don't think it's sensible either.

          Difficult situation last year, because being kind of non-vaccinating people would have undermined the fast uptake of vaccination. But I can't help but feel that alongside her personal conviction that everyone should want to vaccinate, she was actually ok with the marginalising because of her values not just the pragmatics of the situation.

          But then, isn't this also what underlies Labour's inaction on benefits? People need incentives to go to work, right? Labour will create jobs, and people need to be coerced to take them.

      • KJT 1.1.2
        17 January 2022 at 10:39 am

        People finding "creative ways" to get around necessary and sensible responses to a pandemic, are probably what will doom us to overwhelmed health systems and preventable deaths.

        Unfortunately not just of those who refuse to do the equivalent of wearing seatbelts and lifejackets, but like the USA, others who can't get the healthcare they need, because hospitals are full of people who should be politely described as, fools.

        • weka 1.1.2.1
          17 January 2022 at 12:23 pm

          People finding "creative ways" to get around necessary and sensible responses to a pandemic, are probably what will doom us to overwhelmed health systems and preventable deaths.

          What does that mean? They're not finding creative ways to 'get around' public health measures, they made the entirely legal decision to not vax and are finding out how to adapt to the mandates.

          Do you want the state to force them to be vaccinated.

          • woodart 1.1.2.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 3:13 pm

            I"ll throw your question back at you weka, do you want the state to force the vaccinated to pay for the unvaccinated's health care? time for all of the smart-arse fence-sitters here to fess up. I spent four months last year waiting for an operation, while the hospital kept beds sitting empty for possible covid sufferers. statistics show that most covid sufferers who end in hospital ARENT vaccinated. so, if you chose freedumb, and dont get vaccinated, go stand at the end of the longest line for healthcare.

            • Molly 1.1.2.1.1.1
              17 January 2022 at 4:09 pm

              Your hospital wait cannot definitively be laid at the door of the pandemic. There were pre-existing systemic failures before 2019.

              You ire against the as yet unmanifested overwhelmed ICU units, should be diluted by the depreciated health system, the failure to take advantage of our successful elimination hiatus to forward plan, and despite the success of the vaccination messaging – no follow up messging as that is achieved and parameters change.

            • felix 1.1.2.1.1.2
              18 January 2022 at 2:08 am

              If you're willing to tolerate a leftist response to your fascist framing, everyone paying for everyone's healthcare is fine, thanks.

          • KJT 1.1.2.1.2
            17 January 2022 at 4:59 pm

            Don't have any problem with the choice not to be vaccinated.

            I have a problem with the unvaccinated, inflicting the consequences of their choices on others.

            And refusing to accept necessary measures, to stop their choices harming others.

            And even more problem with their trying to persuade the credulous, with bs, to go along with their stupidity.

            • weka 1.1.2.1.2.1
              17 January 2022 at 5:02 pm

              the people I was talking about, the ones finding creative responses, are generally ok with taking other precautions. I know there are hard core anti-vax, or anti-covid response people as well, but that's a different cohort (maybe there are overlaps).

    • RedLogix 1.2
      17 January 2022 at 9:01 am

      From where I'm sitting the major reasons for the increasing blowbacks are:

      • When govts did lockdowns back in early 2020 the deal was 'flatten the curve for a few weeks or a month or so' – almost 2 years later and there is no end in sight. All these ‘temporary’ restrictions on travel, association and small businesses seem to have no end date contemplated.
      • The vaccines themselves turned out to be not very safe and not very effective. While at the same time many non-vaccine early treatments have been uniformly rejected by authorities – which is a medical nonsense.
      • While this doesn't mean the vaccines had zero utility, they certainly have not been the path out of this pandemic as originally promised. Instead govts are now demanding – against WHO advice as it happens – booster shots forever.

      And here's the extraordinary thing – all this has been driven from within the powerful ranks of Big Pharma and it's captured regulatory agencies, particularly the US. Yet remarkably almost no-one pauses to look back with fresh eyes and scratch their heads over the opioid crisis in the USA and prevalence of iatrogenic disease worldwide.

      Think about it this is the same medical profession that at the direct behest of a pharmaceutical company with a dodgy record – conspired for years to push a dangerous and lethal drug onto their patients by the millions. Resulting in death toll, often of young people with much life ahead of them, and a wicked suffering that continues today. Or that the medical profession’s own mistakes and errors are frequently reported as the fourth or even third leading cause of death. And this is not even scratching the surface.

      But now we're required, coerced even, into following every dictate this highly questionable industry imposes on us – or get shamefully relegated to Class B citizens.

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1
        17 January 2022 at 9:25 am

        I'm triple-vaccinated against covid. That's due to comprehending the logic & track record of vaccination long ago & getting a grasp of the ecosystemic nature of immune systems in more recent decades.

        However I agree we ought not to become overly dependent on artificial aids. The monetary incentives driving big pharma into coercing govt decisions are definitely a factor to keep in mind, so I agree with your point there.

        booster shots forever

        Will have to become optional – like flu shots – and I suspect this year govts will have to proclaim that officially (rather than the current tacit tolerance).

        Likewise, with regard to your first two points, I'd like to see our govt stop lagging behind. They ought to be up the front of the learning curve, just behind the fast learners. I've got no problem with experts pushing the medical party line in the media but I get the feeling that the time for such zealotry is past…

        • RedLogix 1.2.1.1
          17 January 2022 at 9:42 am

          That's due to comprehending the logic & track record of vaccination long ago

          For people of our age there is a reasonable benefit to being vaccinated as I am as well. Just as for example when I was working in Latin America I was happy to take the Yellow Fever vaccine, because I was going to an at risk location. And I always had the option of not taking it and doing the quarantine thing on my return to Australia.

          But this mass vax campaign being effectively coerced onto everyone, regardless of risk profile makes no sense. And especially not when the vaccines are not preventing transmission. We only have to look at the current situation in both Israel and Australia – the former the most highly vaccinated country on earth, to see the stark undeniable truth of this.

          I too have had a foot in both camps, I was willing to give the vaccines a go and see how they worked out. Well it's a year later and I'm underwhelmed.

          • KJT 1.2.1.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 10:22 am

            The comparison right in front of you, between NZ where effective public health responses combined with high vaccination rates, has almost eliminated Delta, again, with the States of Australia, that had increased rates of infection even before Omicron, shows you are talking nonsence.

            • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1.1
              17 January 2022 at 10:39 am

              It's reasonable to think of a population in three broad categories; people who are immune, people who will catch it but will recover quickly and gain an immunity, and those who are vulnerable to serious illness or worse. The first two categories constitute a large majority.

              Over and again we see in many countries with relatively low vaccination rates waves of variants pass through, rising and declining pretty much regardless of public health policy. What we are not seeing is any variant run away exponentially consuming all before it. This can only be due to a much maligned herd immunity being generated relatively sooner than is being acknowledged by authorities.

              And untangling this from the impact of the vaccines is a non-trivial data analysis task that I'd not rush to judgement on.

              • KJT …
                17 January 2022 at 10:45 am

                Again nonsence. I’ve first hand information from people that are there, of the disasters that continue in low vaccination rate US States. Anyone who wants that here, is an idiot.
                In NZ, The "large majority" have sensibly voted with their feet, and got vaccinated, wear masks and follow public health measures.

                Because, like wearing a lifejacket, you can't say if you will be the one that needs it.

                A small and very vocal "minority" have persuaded themselves, against the evidence that they know better.

                Coastguard rescue those sorts on the Manukau bar, regularly.

          • KJT 1.2.1.1.2
            17 January 2022 at 11:01 am

            Israel?

            I thought you were knowledgeable on statistics. For example remember, Simpsons paradox?

            "https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated"

            "After accounting for the vaccination rates and stratifying by age groups, from these same data we can see that the vaccines retain high effectiveness (85-95%) vs. severe disease, showing that when it comes to preventing severe disease, the Pfizer vaccine is still performing very well vs. Delta, even in Israel from whence the most concerning data have arisen".

            • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.2.1
              17 January 2022 at 11:11 am

              I was talking about transmission. Your sneering comment is irrelevant to that point.

          • aom 1.2.1.1.3
            17 January 2022 at 12:26 pm

            RedLogix: You say, "….. regardless of risk profile makes no sense.". How do you imagine risk profile would be measured? Otherwise, until the successful NZ strategy falls apart, why would the country change what it is doing because of the failures of Israel and Australia. Don't know about Israel, apart from the fact that it is selectively vaccinating only one demographic but the Aussies are as slack as …… when it comes to dealing with Covid.

            Of course, if you have particular expertise, in public health strategies, tell MOH how to strategise risk profile analysis. I'm sure your knowledge would be appreciated.

      • Bearded Git 1.2.2
        17 January 2022 at 10:05 am

        Red-the WHO's main objection to booster shots is because their use in the rich countries means that there will not be sufficient vaccine supply available for third world countries in the near future (see the article below).

        It is widely accepted that a third booster shot will help significantly to protect against Omicron. I did read somewhere that a fourth shot (2 boosters) was ineffective though.

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10400077/WHO-warns-repeated-booster-shots-not-sustainable.html

        [BTW I have not become a closet Daily Mail reader-perish the thought. This was just a convenient link to use.]

        • RedLogix 1.2.2.1
          17 January 2022 at 10:24 am

          Unlike many people here I'm not prone to dissing a link just because I don't like it – so you're safe from me on that front.

          But here's the rub, it's now very clear that these vaccines have a pretty short window on effective usefulness. Somewhere between 2 – 6 months per shot seems to be the range. You really have to start considering the cost benefit trade offs here.

          WHO are effectively saying the benefits of mass boosting everyone in the developed world are not great enough to justify denying the basics to those in the developing world. There must be hundreds of millions of vulnerable people in poorer nations who should be well ahead of the queue in front of healthy relatively low risk people in NZ.

          • KJT 1.2.2.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 11:08 am

            Vaccine effectiveness drops by percentage points after months.

            To around 75%!

            It doesn't reduce to zero!

            The restrictions on rolling out vaccination to third world countries because of refusals to waive patent rights, is a valid point.

            But. Why bother if "vaccination has a very short window of effectiveness s" and "herd immunity is working"? Sic.

  2. Peter 2
    17 January 2022 at 8:04 am

    Bruno Courcelle shows where the real problem lies when he prepares to sit at the Christmas table stating, "I will not stay silent letting leftists say their stupid things."

    Hopefully he dined well at Christmas with only those who are right about everything in attendance – himself.

    • Kiwijoker 2.1
      17 January 2022 at 9:18 am

      I’m with you Bruno. He lost me with his diatribe on leftists. Possibly he’d like to reflect on the political movement that provided him with his maths degree and his subsequent employment without having to pay the headmaster 20k for his job. However, if he really wants crazy he should join the slobbering baying hounds over on Kiwiblog.

  3. Sanctuary 3
    17 January 2022 at 8:12 am

    The fantasy anti-communism of British Toryism is further evidence of the decline of modern conservatism into delusonal crypto-fascism.

    Rupert Murdoch will go down in history as the man who destroyed democracy.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406587/Nadine-Dorries-allies-warn-BBC-days-state-run-television-OVER.html

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    17 January 2022 at 8:12 am

    Did the British PM break the law? Or was it just rule-breaking performed by underlings on the basis that a nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse?

    Opposition Labour Party leader Keir Starmer accused Johnson of breaking the law, and of lying to parliament when first challenged about the reports of parties. He said the public could no longer take the prime minister seriously when it came to the pandemic response.

    The British Conservative Party chairman rejected calls for Prime Minister Boris Johnson to resign but said he must address the culture within his government that resulted in multiple staff gatherings at his residence during coronavirus lockdowns.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2022/01/uk-pm-boris-johnson-must-address-culture-that-led-to-lockdown-parties-conservative-chairman.html

    Addressing political culture ought to be a load of fun & I do hope Boris takes his chairman's advice & has a go at it. We need all the entertainment we can get.

    Dowden said: "I'm very hopeful and optimistic but clearly, we will await the data at the point of the decision before making that final decision."

    With an attitude like that, the chairman has a glorious future in front of him should be ever decide to become a bureaucrat. Meanwhile, the civil servant tasked with unearthing the data will be involved in calculating how many years it will take…

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    17 January 2022 at 8:21 am

    Opportunity to become monarch of your own island in Britain, right now!

    Applicants can now apply for a 10-year lease to run the pub and manage the island, which features a ruined 14th Century castle and a campsite. Barrow Borough Council said the person would be "crowned" by having alcohol poured over their head.

    On its tourism website: "One of the most enduring aspects of the Ship Inn is the tradition of the king and knights of Piel. The tradition holds that each new landlord is crowned King of Piel in a ceremony of uncertain origin, in which they sit in an ancient chair, wearing a helmet and holding a sword while alcohol is poured over their head. By the 19th Century it had become an important aspect of the island's history to such an extent that responsibility for looking after the helmet and chair fell within the tenancy agreement."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-60015143

    Have a look at those cool pictures! You could renovate the castle too. Don’t need a moat.

  6. Adrian 6
    17 January 2022 at 8:24 am

    We will need to do all we can to help Tonga through this disaster and probably for quite a while. Meanwhile prepare for two or three very cold years much like 1992/3 after Pinatubo and this could be worse as it is very much in our hemisphere.

  7. Peter 7
    17 January 2022 at 9:44 am

    I saw the "Opportunity to become monarch of your own island in Britain, right now!" and thought it'd be a great idea to throw Brian Tamaki's way. An island where he could be King and ruler, saviour and saint and whatever else he wanted to be. I checked it out and it seems a bit small though. There isn't enough space to have hundreds and thousands to be employed earning money to give him. Or enough roading for lots of motor bikes.

    He and his lot want their own laws and rules and his own kingdom would seem to be the best way to achieve that.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-destiny-churchs-brian-tamaki-arrested-for-protest-bail-breach/2OTAM3LPBYQN2PFMWFB6ZHMIDM/

    • Gezza 7.1
      17 January 2022 at 5:28 pm

      Wow. The police actually arrested him.

      Controversial Destiny church leader Brian Tamaki claims he is a "political prisoner" after his arrest this morning for breaching bail conditions.

      …He was taken in a police vehicle to the Mt Eden remand Centre, arriving just before 9.30am, with his supporters livestreaming the vehicle's journey.

      More than 50 people gathered outside the Mt Eden remand centre around 9.30am to show their support for Tamaki.

      This will be interesting.

  8. Anker 8
    17 January 2022 at 9:49 am
    • Sitting at my local vaccination centre, having just had my booster. Busy as cause first days for kids. We were booked so able to skip the queue. But a big queue with people all masked up.

    efficient, well run. Congratulations and thanks to all the health workers involved

    • Tricledrown 9.1
      17 January 2022 at 10:54 am

      Thanks Joe 90 for some responsible facts.

      It looks identical to NSW's experience.

      And New Zealands vaccination figures pertaining to Delta.

  10. aom 10
    17 January 2022 at 10:12 am

    Brian Tamaki now claiming to be a political prisoner having been arrested for yet another breach of bail? What a load of drivel. How many stern warnings from the Judiciary does it take to penetrate his thick hide? If he ends up being remanded in custody this time, it is the consequence of his Quixotic self-promotional acts of contempt of Court, not victimisation for his political actions.

    • tc 10.1
      17 January 2022 at 1:57 pm

      I note how aggressively his minions kept the media away from his unauthorized public gathering so they couldn't record it.

      About time as he's been taking the piss.

      • Anne 10.1.1
        17 January 2022 at 5:32 pm

        I suspect the police were also giving him plenty of rope to hang himself with.

        I was one of those who was annoyed with them for seemingly letting him him off the hook. I was wrong. They knew he was going to breach his bail conditions again and they would be in a better position to throw the book at him which they are now doing.

    • Blade 10.2
      17 January 2022 at 2:29 pm

      His PR strategy is coming along well. This type of genesis can lead to things getting out of hand big time. The government should be careful.

      • woodart 10.2.1
        17 January 2022 at 3:19 pm

        yeah, the four percent of anti-vaxxers could overthrow the gov AND the 96% of vaxxed kiwis. really blade, you need to sharpen up if you are going to troll.or did you learn maths at the same school as joyce ,goldsmith etc?

        • Stuart Munro 10.2.1.1
          17 January 2022 at 4:27 pm

          It takes a relatively small group to upset the parliamentary conventions and disrupt what little democracy still exists within our governing systems. It didn't take 4% of Americans to make the Capitol riot, and, had they been only slightly better supported, they might have slain a considerable number of Democrats.

          • woodart 10.2.1.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 5:11 pm

            the percentage of disaffected anti-gov americans (with guns, and little education) is waaay higher than here. do you think a few noisy farmers and some destiny church bootboys are going to storm the beehive? nah. fun fact. I was at a bbq just before christmas and watched some anti-vaxxer protesters have a bitchfight with some groundswiller protesters, both then had a moan about “their” protests for freedom(?)being taken over by density church bootboys. hah! it has the makings of a good mocumentary film. throw in a few loonies waving nazi and trump flags for extra chuckles.

            • Stuart Munro 10.2.1.1.1.1
              17 January 2022 at 9:52 pm

              I'm not sure the disaffected are much lower here than in the US – our suicide rate at least tends to suggest that all is far from well. But we don't really have that culture that grew out of stories like True Grit, of taking firearms against a sea of troubles to by opposing end them.

              So yes, an NZ version of occupying parliament would likely be more comedy than tragedy – but it would only take one or two deculturated persons in a mob, to turn it ugly, and to do irreparable damage.

              These astroturfers are rubbish – but our homeless – a large and rising fraction, should occupy that building. They've got to sleep somewhere, and displacing the clowns that unhomed them is as close to economic justice as we're likely to see in my lifetime.

          • Blade 10.2.1.1.2
            17 January 2022 at 9:54 pm

            I don't think poor Woodart gets it, Stuart. If he stopped trolling me and thought things through he might realise the good Bishop doesn't only attract anti vaxxers. He also attracts people with a variety of gripes against the government. And that could keep growing with him as a focal point.

            Just like the government/police didn't decide to go ahead with road blocks, I get the impression they didn't want to arrest Tamaki, but had no choice given his intransigence.

            It must be remembered an attempt to storm the
            Beehive in the early 2000s was talked down by Maori elders( not only Maori were involve). The guy leading the group was army trained.

            • Stuart Munro 10.2.1.1.2.1
              17 January 2022 at 10:11 pm

              It's a puzzle, this dealing with incitement. Previous generations, the Watersiders for instance, would have been read the riot act, and required to disperse. Some of the antivaxxers at least have been encouraged by the clemency of the police response thus far.

              I think that for the moment we must call the police response a win, they have avoided escalating the protests by fruitless confrontation. But we are only a loon or a fool away from that response being tested, and generating harm, publicity, and a backlash.

              Woodart is a fellow of good character, which makes it harder for him to imagine the darker places of the human heart. I was on a Russian boat that mutinied once (the Bratya Stoyanovy) – I have seen crowds on the point of turning nasty. It is… memorable.

              • Blade …
                17 January 2022 at 10:32 pm

                Ah, the mob mentality or group instability principle. All of a sudden a myriad of individuals become one with one intent. Sweet reason is hopeless against a mob that has literally lost their minds.

                That said we can be thankful Kiwis are a weird mob. We are too laidback (lazy?) to mount some Yanky style insurrection. I mean we would need smoko breaks, set times for a haka and karakia…and we would have to knock off at 5pm each day for a good feed and a sleep. As you say…a comedy.

                But there's always that chance…

    • aom 10.3
      17 January 2022 at 5:08 pm

      How fitting, Tamaki was remanded in custody by Judge Evangelos Thomas.

      The Bishop put away by an Evangelist.

  11. Bazza64 11
    17 January 2022 at 10:13 am

    Got my first booster shot a few days ago. No problems with it.

    just got a text asking me if I had any side effects from the vaccine, answered NO but it makes you wonder are they trying to get a more accurate number of those with side effects?

    • Peter 11.1
      17 January 2022 at 10:33 am

      Are they trying to get a more accurate number of those with side effects? Probably. Why? because they want to know what's happening. And because the information will be needed for when Chris Bishop foolishly tries to make some point and claim.

    • McFlock 11.2
      17 January 2022 at 12:18 pm

      had a bit of an owie on my arm for about a day, that was it.

    • KJT 11.3
      17 January 2022 at 1:38 pm

      I think we have a pretty good idea already.

      The proportion of vaccination causing side effects is not difficult to quantity.

      The anti vaccers recording every sneeze after the vaccine, is actually helpful in that regard.

      Quantifying the proportion of vaccination caused and coincidental side effects.

    • joe90 11.4
      17 January 2022 at 2:23 pm

      24 hours after I started to feel a little rough, cold, tired, shakey and a cracking forehead/sinus nut ache. The usual bot protocol, paracetamol/decongestant, lots to drink and hit the sack with a couple of hotties to sleep it off. Good as next morning. My SO was the same but it took a full two days to recover.

  12. Anker 12
    17 January 2022 at 10:33 am
    • Yes all good after my booster. Went to a pharmacy afterwards to get a script. Significant no there getting jabbed or waiting to get jabbed
    • Dennis Frank 13.1
      17 January 2022 at 11:45 am

      You bet. It's a wonder Shadbolt hasn't already taken credit for it!

      The resource consent application would allow the data centre to consume up to 150 megawatts of power, which is more than a quarter of the power currently used by Southland’s Tiwai Point aluminium smelter.

      Good news, that. Will employ a few dozen people – wonder how many will be foreign imports? No mention of robots but don't rule out the possibility that they'll hire Ruth Richardson to do pr!

      • Puckish Rogue 13.1.1
        17 January 2022 at 11:53 am

        'but don't rule out the possibility that they'll hire Ruth Richardson to do pr!'

        Its an intriguing offer however being that I'm happily married I'll have to decline

      • Robert Guyton 13.1.2
        17 January 2022 at 12:04 pm

        Where do you think they expect to get all that electricity from?

        Rio Tinto's still at Tiwai.

        • Dennis Frank 13.1.2.1
          17 January 2022 at 12:24 pm

          I presume a sunset clause. Strategy would be to go online when Rio Tinto pulls out. Any earlier, supply & demand would kick in, get the market a-flutter, get power prices shooting up, and Labour honchos looking angrily at each other saying "Who the hell got us into this neoliberal mess anyway??"

        • Graeme 13.1.2.2
          17 January 2022 at 1:33 pm

          Tiwai will have competition for the power they use now, so the price will go up. And that will probably be the end of Tiwai.
          Then we might see the hydrogen thing happen. Along with a lot more wind generation and a downstream industrial cluster.
          You might end up with a green steel mill, and maybe carbon negative cement produced in Southland

          • Robert Guyton 13.1.2.2.1
            17 January 2022 at 2:17 pm

            Yay! A steel mill!

            And a cement factory!

            Great news for Southland!

            I think hydrogen-for-fuel is a pipe-dream.

            But it sure is exciting, eh!

            • bwaghorn 13.1.2.2.1.1
              17 January 2022 at 4:55 pm

              Humans gonna human, best hope science can cleanup after us..

            • Graeme 13.1.2.2.1.2
              17 January 2022 at 8:25 pm

              The fuel side of hydrogen is probably a tad overblown, but when you look at it as an industrial feedstock resulting in industries that are currently huge producers of CO2 becoming carbon zero then it all makes more sense.

    • alwyn 13.2
      17 January 2022 at 12:15 pm

      The words in the link made me start. "Land bought for 1 billion". Then I read the whole story and found that that was the cost of the whole project. From the numbers quoted in the story it might have been about $2 million.

      It sounds like a great idea. I particularly liked the bit that the cold climate there would reduce the cost of power to cool the facility. I believe that is a major reason why Iceland is in favour for this sort of place.

      • Robert Guyton 13.2.1
        17 January 2022 at 12:30 pm

        27º in Southland today.

        • Tricledrown 13.2.1.1
          17 January 2022 at 1:38 pm

          32°c last week.

          [you were banned (until 11th Feb), and while I’m not quite sure how you’re navigating your way around it, for every future comment you make, your ban will be extended by one month] – B

          • Robert Guyton 13.2.1.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 2:18 pm

            That sounds like bullying, Bill.

            [take the day off Robert]- B

          • weka 13.2.1.1.2
            17 January 2022 at 2:44 pm

            Tricledrown didn't navigate around the ban. They weren't told there was a ban nor for how long. Nor where they given a warning.

            The issue is in the backend. It's grossly unfair to blame and punish a commenter who doesn't know they were banned for moderation mistakes that were completely outside of their control. Let alone for how long.

            • Bill 13.2.1.1.2.1
              17 January 2022 at 2:54 pm

              ? I don't know what you're on about. I haven't extended the ban. And tricledrown was notified in just the same way as above in the original comment. Granted, I originally forgot to mention the time scale, but that's been rectified 😉

              • weka …
                17 January 2022 at 3:06 pm

                TD often doesn't go back and reread their comments, so it is very unlikely he saw your original note. That's why we mostly reply to a comment letting people know there is a mod note.

                TD often doesn't even read replies, this has been discussed in the back end recently, I assume you knew because you referred to RL's warning.

                Afaik this ban was never loaded into the ban list. You can check that but I looked on the day and it wasn't there.

                There is minimal information in the Moderation list about what is going on.

                As far as I can see no formal warning of a ban was given of what the problem was with the comments. We use bold to give warnings for a reason (and reply saying there is a mod note). This is why some people perceive the moderations as OTT and unfair. They come out of nowhere and people don't have the chance to change their behaviour.

                Yes, you forgot to give a timeframe and now you've just threatened TD for commenting sooner than a timeframe which was never publicly notified and they couldn't have known about even if they had seen the moderation. An apology is in order there.

  14. Tricledrown 14
    17 January 2022 at 11:01 am

    Next the govt should build a micro chip factory in the South,as with global warming is causing shortages of water in Taiwan slowing production

  15. Adrian 15
    17 January 2022 at 2:16 pm

    To Weka at6.1, my iPad won’t let me answer to posts directly. Quite cold probably, more than 1+ degree below normal for two years at least, like Pinatubo served up in 1992/3 after eruption in June 91, but may be worse as that was in the Northern Hemisphere. Expect lots of late and early frosts, ( spring/autumn ) big snow falls, 100s of thousands of sheep killed in 92 in very big snowfalls. But before there are global cooling celebrations, millions of tonnes of all sorts of shit we don’t want have been injected in to the upper atmosphere which will stay around for a long time. It may also depend on the makeup of the ejection materials, Pinatubo seeded very fine super heated silica which became glass like and resulted in gorgeous pearl coloured skies but kept the sun out for two summers.

    Now 1 degree less doesn’t sound like much but a down to -14 degree frost killed almost 90% of the young olive trees in Marlborough in the spring which pretty much killed off the industry. We may get away with out effects now for a few weeks or so but when you see those skies a lot of agriculture will be buggered, from avocados to tomatoes and every thing in between and big losses to almost all farming industries.
    Heres hoping almost all of that big cloud is just steam, but somehow I don’t think so.

    I would like to link the NZ 1992 and 3 weather stats but it’s either me or this shitty iPad that won’t do it, probably me.

  16. Bill 16
    17 January 2022 at 2:19 pm

    My heart goes out to all the 5 through 12 year olds today who are now going to be 'delivered up' to pointless but "safe and effective" injections by parents and guardians who've been misled and sunk in fear by over two years of 'official narrative' nonsense.

    I wonder what all the gatekeepers, and those who have been anxious to censor and smear in order to shut down intelligent conversation and debate are going to say when the side effects of those injections emerge into the public awareness?

    Maybe they'll do the honourable thing.

    • Dennis Frank 16.1
      17 January 2022 at 2:25 pm

      Denial of the relation between cause & effect normally works well. Also expect them to use "It's just a coincidence."

      • Bill 16.1.1
        17 January 2022 at 2:47 pm

        The links here are 'interesting' to say the least.

        Germany is coming off the back of a Delta wave, and hospital admissions, ventilated patients and deaths are dropping even as Omicron infections soar.

        The UK has a small uptick in admissions and confirmed deaths as Omicron infections now plummet.

        There are charts for Israel and Spain too. The point being that hospitalisations, deaths and ventilated patients, depending what one of those three you look at, at worst barely register 50% of what was seen in the original wave of Covid.

        ourworldindata reckons that shows the effectiveness of vaccines, even though there are skyrocketing infection rates, and are silent on Omicron being less aggressive or the fact that the vulnerable oldest demographics who account for the overwhelming majority of deaths have been (sorry for the term) harvested by previous waves.

        https://ourworldindata.org/covid-metrics-previous-waves?utm_source=OWID+Newsletter&utm_campaign=57cd25901b-biweekly-digest-2022-01-14&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_2e166c1fc1-57cd25901b-536960754

        And yet, here we are in NZ stuffing an experimental injectable into the arms of kids who face somewhere between 5/8ths of fuck all, and fuck all risk from infection.

        On a side note. The CEO of OneAmerica (an insurance company) is reporting a 40% increase in non-covid deaths in the under 60s through the 3rd and 4th quarter. I guess that might be longer term effects of covid, or the aftermath of people not being seen for conditions because of Covid restrictions, or….well, the medium/long term effects of injection. Maybe there's a possible fourth explanation.

        • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.1
          17 January 2022 at 3:22 pm

          Maybe there's a possible fourth explanation.

          Humans aren't very good at getting that far. Most go for the easiest explanation (low-hanging fruit). Discerning folk will go for #2, the likeliest explanation. Those capable of cogniting nuance as well as having discernment will go for explanations arising from complex contexts, #3.

          Politicians get elected by majorities, so will reach for #1. Their advisors will point out that it's almost certainly wrong & alert them to reputational consequences. They will gulp, then go for #2. To get it right in complex circumstances they need to go to #3 but neither they nor their advisers know that.

          • Bill 16.1.1.1.1
            17 January 2022 at 4:07 pm

            Number 3 and CEO Scott Davison's radar….nope. 🙂

            https://twitter.com/Mr_Mackei/status/1478008259474862081?s=20

            • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.1.1.1
              17 January 2022 at 4:20 pm

              What I take away from him is that yanks are more vulnerable than normal people due to most of them being obese plus their junk food habit means their immune system's working too hard all the time trying to eliminate toxins so the pandemic just tips them over the threshold – causing their bodies to file them in the too hard basket.

              Oh, and capitalism is going to cost a lot more to operate. All good… devil

        • woodart 16.1.1.2
          17 January 2022 at 3:25 pm

          so, with all your statistics, I dont see any regarding employee absentieism re covid. why not? worried that it might not line up with all your other posts?

    • weka 16.2
      17 January 2022 at 2:37 pm

      I wonder what all the gatekeepers, and those who have been anxious to censor and smear in order to shut down intelligent conversation and debate are going to say when the side effects of those injections emerge into the public awareness?

      Maybe they’ll do the honourable thing.

      This is an incredible position from someone who can't even talk about long covid, let alone integrate it into their arguments. What's the honorable thing there?

      Vaccines have side effects. Covid-19 has direct effects, multiple. The pandemic as a whole has lots of unwanted effects, multiple and compounding. There are no easy answers here. I've yet to see a solid argument against population wide vaccination when comparing those three aspects.

    • bwaghorn 16.3
      17 January 2022 at 5:01 pm

      Yeah na fuck you bill, my baby was born during the time that cunt was pushing his autism caused by vaccines lie. , it took me a while to overcome the fear and protect my baby from measles mumps rubella, if any kid suffers from severe covid issues due to your anti vax shit then double fuck you you sad cunt.
      [I’m really sorry you fell for spurious anti-vaccination propaganda. I’m not anti-vaccination and never have been. That said, the wrongheaded abuse you’re directing at me with its undertones of violence – is way beyond the pale, and beyond what I’m willing to accept as an author on this site. I’m banning you for six months. (17th July)] – B

    • Drowsy M. Kram 16.4
      17 January 2022 at 7:58 pm

      My heart goes out to all the 5 through 12 year olds today who are now going to be 'delivered up' to pointless but "safe and effective" injections by parents and guardians who've been misled and sunk in fear by over two years of 'official narrative' nonsense.

      My heart goes out to all parents and guardians of 5 – 11 year-olds who have the welfare of those children at heart – I'm relieved that it's their decision.

      Children's COVID-19 vaccine: Questions about benefits, risks answered
      [15 January 2022]
      Professor Stuart Dalziel, the study author from the University of Auckland, said this is important information ahead of the children's vaccine rollout as it highlights the severity of illness some children with COVID-19 face and "dispels the myth children are being vaccinated solely to protect adults".

      "There is a perception that COVID-19 is only a very mild infection in children," said Prof Dalziel. "However, as the pandemic has progressed, we are seeing greater numbers of children being infected and presenting to hospital worldwide. Unfortunately, for some of these children, COVID-19 results in severe disease."

      Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Expert says Omicron outbreak should be delayed to allow children to get vaccinated [17 January 2022]
      "I say to my boys, you are going to be vaccinated to protect yourself against Covid-19, and to protect our family, your grandparents, our community, and other kids at school who may be more at risk from Covid-19 if they catch it."

      As Omicron surges, effort to vaccinate young children stalls
      [14 January 2022]
      Pediatricians say the slow pace and geographic disparities are alarming, especially against the backdrop of record numbers of cases and pediatric hospitalizations.

      COVID-19 vaccine and children: Information for parents and caregivers
      Children aged 5 years and over are eligible for COVID-19 vaccination. Learn about the effects COVID-19 could have on unvaccinated young people, the effectiveness and safety of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, and what to expect during the appointment.

      Unite against
      COVID-19
      https://covid19.govt.nz

  17. Adrian 17
    17 January 2022 at 2:23 pm

    For the best CC use of Tiwai electricity it should stay as an aluminium smelter, closure will mean the shortfall will be filled by a coal powered one in China or India or elsewhere.

    • weka 17.1
      17 January 2022 at 3:25 pm

      maybe we should stop making so many throwaway items from aluminium.

    • Blazer 17.2
      17 January 2022 at 3:26 pm

      Aluminium is demanding a premium atm and quite likely to for…some time.

      Has been constraints on bauxite supplies appsarantly.

  18. Peter 18
    17 January 2022 at 2:54 pm

    My heart went out to the same cohort many years ago when I appreciated they were lining up for MMR shots. And once upon a time a TB shot. Oh no, a prick in the arm.

    Those that suffered that are still here, alive and well, engaging in intelligent conversation, debate and action. And getting shots for Covid and welcoming their children and grand children having the chance to do the same. Nothing to do with being the honourable thing to do, just the most sane.

    I've heard it said those generations have been driven by 'fear-mongering.'

    I remember my high school mates and I lined up outside the sick bay to get our TB shots. Those who'd survived the trauma, the horror, walking back past the ones waiting "Oh God, it's terrible, my arm feels like its going to fall off," and getting round the corner to head for class pissing themselves laughing about the fear.

    Now? If covid vaxx were done the same way and the doom merchants were believed we'd have every single kid lined up freaking out that the vaccines was going to kill them. and genuinely believing it.

    I'm still trying to work out how the MOH and politicians are fear merchants ruling by fear by having daily updates are the demons yet others who preach "if you have the vaccine you're going to die" and, "it hasn't been researched" are heroes for looking out for public heath.

    • Bill 18.1
      17 January 2022 at 3:17 pm

      Firstly, I've precisely zero objection to vaccinations. And these injectables (not vaccinations), although they do not work as advertised and are not safe (no medicine is) do seem to have a role to play in protecting vulnerable people from the more severe consequences of infection.

      Secondly, children face next to no risk from Covid. On bar charts of deaths where age range is included, it's basically quite difficult to discern the deaths in the under 40s.

      What we have is people lining up to be jabbed, and lining others up to be jabbed, and people losing their jobs and careers because they're not jabbed, and anyone not jabbed being ostracized from society, because government led propaganda has resulted in people freaking out that Covid's going to kill them.

      The IFR for under 70 years old is 0.05% ffs! And that lessens as age lowers.

    • weka 19.1
      17 January 2022 at 5:11 pm

      Looks to me like Ani O'Brien's tweet, that the article is based on, was misleading. As Henare said,

      The Defence Minister, when asked on Monday if the post was appropriate, told reporters he was sorry if it caused offence. He said he posted it to encourage his more than 3000 followers to watch a 3pm press conference he was to participate in on Sunday.

      "I apologise if my picture offended anyone," he said on Monday, standing next to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern at a press conference in Auckland.

      "What was advertised on that picture too was that I encouraged people to tune in to the 3pm which was where the Prime Minister, myself and minister Sio gave more details and more updates on the situation in Tonga."

      It's been removed so I can't see it, but if Henare wrote a post as well as the photo, then AO left out important information.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.