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Open Mike 17/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:53 am, July 17th, 2018 - 71 comments
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71 comments on “Open Mike 17/07/2018 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Our office was flooded with sewage on the weekend. Our brand new office building’s internal pipework was put together in haste, shall we say. Apparently some of the wastewater piping in our walls was only pushed together and perhaps tapped with a hammer, not glued. According to one of the plumber’s assistant who was I was nattering to as he set about his work this is not uncommon.

    Sort of a metaphor for the John Key economy.

    Economic growth via shabby and shady builders employing untrained low wage workers from the third world and flouting regulations not enforced by anyone because they all got made redundant in Bill English’s hunt for a surplus then even more economic growth from the insurance payout and repair work.

    Rock star economy right there.

    Whereas a building inspector, a trained worker and some plastic cement is pretty communism.

    • Robert Guyton 1.1

      Compost toilets are the answer. Bucket units on every floor, a big barrel in the basement for the composting to occur and the best flower beds in the city.

      • Sanctuary 1.1.1

        Bring back the “night soil” man! Urban shit fertilized the market gardens of every city until the advent of modern sewage schemes and the Haber–Bosch process.

        Night soil is also why our great grand parents boiled the hell out of their vegetables – otherwise, shit covered veges and a parasite paradise.

        • Robert Guyton

          Don’t pour your sh*t onto your vegetables, Sanctuary: compost it efficiently and make soil from it to grow your vegetables in. There will be no pathogens to make you sick. Old views of humane management are redundant now; applying ourselves to good humane management is something we humans could do.

          • ianmac

            As a kid we had night cart collections. I asked what happens to the shit. My big brother said it was used on gardens to grow things like onions. For the next 70+ years I excluded onions from any of my food. Deeply embedded hatred it was.

            • Puckish Rogue

              No fried or roast onions for 70 years?!?! Dang….

              • ianmac

                Even picked out fragments of onion from say a meat pie. Liked the smell of fried onions though.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I love me some fried or roast (never raw) onions but I’m also one of those people that pretty much converts onion (or similar) to garlic…specifically the smell that seems to waft out of my pores almost immediately

                  I don’t have a problem with it though so its all good, wifey on the other hand…

            • Halfcrown

              I love it ianmac Reminds me of the joke about a guy collecting horse manure off the road outside a mental institute. One of the inmates asked “what was he collecting it for?” and the guy said “to put on my Rhubarb” to which the inmate replied ” You better come in here mate, we have custard on ours”

          • Robert Guyton

            humane “self-corrected” humanure.

      • Heather Grimwood 1.1.2

        To RG at 1.1 : as well as cutting costs of reticulation and hopefully reducing the awful pong that folk near treatment ponds suffer.

    • SaveNZ 1.2

      Shocking, wait till it’s a 30 story high rise, with the developers and subcontractors long gone and the council through rate payers picking up the bill, while the 1000’s of inhabitants have to be relocated…

      Cheap and lazy NZ construction practises for profit using the lowest common denominator and cheap, inexperienced and illegal labour, have to stop!

      • cleangreen 1.2.1

        Save NZ

        Yes I was an apprentice Builders for my dad in 1959 as he was a master builder, and we glued all PVC wate pipes always then, and still do today.

        I cannot understand why others didnt as the pressure buildup in the pipes alone will force the unsealed joints to blow open, crazy peolple they are.

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    GE pasture grasses on a farm near you…soon! Trials in the USA have gone well, we are told and these grasses will be brought here for further trials as soon as the law is changed. GE grasses are the answer to climate change responsibilities, producing less of everything bad and more of everything good, the GE supporters claim. Thank goodness to high-technology! We’ll be able to continue farming with a clear conscience!

    But there are detractors:

    “Mr Terry said the society’s paper provided a diversity of views, but the framing of the document suggested a lack of even-handedness.

    It was talking about GE grasses and their ability to cause changes – such as delivering higher levels of water soluble carbohydrates, more efficient protein use and reduced nitrogen waste – but presented such traits as apparently novel, when similar effects were available from conventional “high sugar” grasses.”


    • bwaghorn 2.1

      Are you anti Science? Or just selective of what you’ll believe?

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1

        “Are you anti Science? Or just selective of what you’ll believe?”

        Of course he is not anti Science, (love the capitalization) and of course he is selective about what he accepts as Gospel.

        RG, (and the rest of us) would be blind fools if we didn’t all question, question, question….

      • Andre 2.1.2

        It’s really more anti-technology than anti-science.

        Science is about understanding why shit happens, regardless of whether that understanding is useful for anything. Technology is about making new shit happen (hopefully useful shit), regardless of whether that new shit is really understood or not.

    • Andre 2.2

      Aww c’mon Robert. If you’re gonna invoke the GE boogeyman, at least use the up to date info instead of something from 2010.


      I don’t think anyone seriously claims these GE ryegrasses are the answer to climate change. At best they’re a small piece of the puzzle to improving the situation. But every bit helps.

      As far the risk to the environment goes, let’s look at what has actually changed. These plants have been modified so that more of their energy goes into making itself more palatable to creatures that want to eat them. Which is a definite non-survival trait if it somehow “escapes”. Unlike characteristics such as herbicide resistance.

      As such, I actually think it’s preferable to get these traits expressed by targeted specific genomic manipulations (which is unlikely to affect other characteristics) and getting those traits expressed by conventional methods of selecting variants that happen to show hints of a desired trait from thousands of random mutations. Particularly when those random mutations are generated by “mutation breeding”, when doesn’t seem to generate the opposition it should.


      Seriously, if there’s a technique likely to unleash the triffids, it’s forcibly generating all kinds of weird mutations and then selecting by only looking at a few of the characteristics of the resulting organism. That’s how those toxic swedes that poisoned the Southland cattle came about.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.2.1

        Oh, heavens! Another worshiper of the Science gods.

        And anyone who even for a single second suggests a Precautionary Approach before unleashing yet another artificial entity into our environment with the purpose of mitigating the negative effects of other nasties previously released is an heretic and should be taken out the back and shot.

        Shakes head, rolls eyes and despairs that as a species we seem incapable of learning from our past blunders.

        • Andre

          Yes it’s true. According to the precepts of the anti-GE cult, I’m a heretic of the worst kind.

          Now that we’re done ad-homming me, do you have anything to say about the actual points I raised? Other than misusing the precautionary principle against something you have a pavlovian gut reaction about but no actual arguments.

          • gsays

            Hi Andre, that is part of the problem with opposing GE.

            If you are pro the ‘science’, you are able to quote all manner of studies citing all sorts of benefits and advantage’s.
            Every study you would cite, has come from a source that has profit as it’s core motive.
            I am sure any amount of ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’ could have lauded thalidomide back in the day.

            My concern is the unseen (or seen and willingly ignored,) consequences of GE.
            Someone better educated than me can articulate what happens when genes are muddled with and are able to move to different species.

            Yes the staunch anti GE folk can be a bit hard to listen to, equally so the blind followers of the ‘science’
            My father in law still adheres to the myth that round-up is inert and harmless 15minutes after aapplication.

            Billions have been spent on the pro GE argument, but still they can’t tell us how to put the GEnie back in the bottle.

            • Robert Guyton

              I’m at a meeting, so can’t respond till I get home. I intend to though!

          • Rosemary McDonald

            “According to the precepts of the anti-GE cult, I’m a heretic of the worst kind.”

            So, Andre, pin your colours to the mast and state whether you are pro or anti GE.

            I am anti GE. For all the usual previously voiced reasons, but predominantly because the science (and resulting technology) has been driven by the desire to make shit loads of money for the ‘investors’…on the back of clever promotional campaigns claiming (or suggesting strongly) that this *insert latest advancement here* is the Answer To All Our Problems.

            I am one of Those People who believe that the reason we are in our current Sorry State is rampant unfettered capitalism. Heroes today are those who have become multi gazillionaires from such investments…and look!!! We are still up the creek and the shit current gets faster every day.

            Show me some science and technology around GE and it’s variants that is not in any way profit driven….you know….done solely for the good of the planet and its inhabitants.

            Today they are saving us from the effects of climate change….yesterday Monsanto and Co was feeding a starving world.

            Well, as we all know, the starvation was not caused by failure of food production…there is more than enough food produced to feed everyone. Its politics and its best buddy capitalism that keeps people poor and starving.

            And climate change? AGW? A problem that was foreseen decades ago but fear of undermining the global economy has seen us go past the point of no return. Probably.

            And the science and technology investors still seek to profit as Earth becomes increasingly uninhabitable.

            • Andre

              The work to modify this ryegrass was done by AgResearch. Which is a Crown Research Institute. So the shareholders and investors are collectively all of us.

              Their mission is to improve New Zealand through improvements in agriculture. In this case, profit won’t go to the shareholders of the technologists’ employer, until such time as the productivity improvements show up in an increased tax take (Hah!), but to the farmers that are able to take advantage of the modified ryegrass.

              There’s no lock-in mechanism (such as terminator genes), so if the farmers find there’s no benefit they can quickly and easily revert to ‘conventional’ alternatives, which may have been mutation-bred profit centres for big corporations. So this modified ryegrass really is about improving the productivity and reducing the footprint of farming, reducing than locking farmers into a corporate profiteering system.

              • Draco T Bastard

                So this modified ryegrass really is about improving the productivity and reducing the footprint of farming

                IMO, the only way to effectively reduce the footprint of farming is to reduce the amount of land dedicated to farming.

                • Andre

                  Well, yeah. I reckon and hope synthetic vat-grown milk and meat will make this specific ryegrass issue pretty much moot. Hopefully soon.

                  But there’s still the debate about whether GE has any place at all in our future, or only if it can be wrestled out of the hands of shitty corporates, or leave it as the near free-for-all open slather for corporates to fuck us all over that it is right now in some parts of the world.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    If the writing’s on the wall for meat and milk farming because of synthetics, why are the GE crowd bothering?

                    • Andre

                      Probably because they don’t agree with my reckons and hopes. That’s not unusual, as damaging as that may be to my self-esteem.

                    • McFlock

                      Also because synthetics will not eradicate natural milk and meat, any more than the car eradicated horses.

                      In a hundred years, the wealthier hippies will be eating “natural” foods fed on GM stock, whereas today they spend gazillions on free range organic eggs when most people just buy bog-standard.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Synthetics will/could knock the market so badly that processors won’t continue and the whole kit and caboodle will fold. You might find a little farm to supply you, or you might not…
                      “In a hundred years…” you’re an optimist.

                    • McFlock

                      There will be humans in a hundred years time.

                      In established societies.

                      I’m not sure whether more or less would imply the larger calamity, though.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Who, Andre, do you suppose will wrestle GE out of the hands of shitty corporates and what gives you any indication that such a thing could happen?

                    • Andre

                      Developing alternatives to the locked-in corporate systems for farmers in government research labs where the motive is something other than immediate corporate profit strikes me as one way that might happen. Which might work a whole lot better if we focus on the characteristics of the modified organisms they produce rather than getting hung up about irrelevant aspects of how they produced the modification.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I can’t see Monsanto et al releasing their grip on the lucrative technologies. Government research labs, you reckon? Government funded GE research; will they want public support for that, I wonder?

                • cleangreen

                  Draco; 100% correct.

                  All this GMO is doing is to intensify the production of yet more land use because more will want to convert to stock feed rye grass units.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Agriculture, from here to infinity (or ecosystem destruction, whichever comes first)!

            • marty mars

              Excellent comment Rosemary – with Andre in the house, and other strong commenters, should be an interesting discussion.

              • Andre

                Thanks, I think, for the call-out.

                It’s a shame Psycho Milt is currently banned. It’s always seemed to me he was a bit closer to the issues and has some actual expertise. As well as being more articulate than I am. Whereas for me, GE is an issue where everything I’ve got is really just second-hand or further removed. It’s really on the fringes of me feeling my opinion is informed enough to inflict it on others.

                • marty mars

                  It was a compliment.

                  Yeah I miss PM too on some of these debates – he has a clarity of view and strong vocab to make some very interesting comments irrespective of my agreement or not.

                  I think I’m a little anti technology – around some things for sure but then again here I am on my child slave labour produced corporatised phone happily typing – active memory block – sadly not dissimilar to t.rump methinks.

            • Andre

              As to whether I am pro or anti GE, it’s kind of the wrong question. Yes, nasty corporates have been able to use GE to grossly pad their profits at the expense of farmers and in some cases adding to environmental damage.

              But being blanket anti-GE strikes me as being as irrational as being anti-electricity because General Electric has been a real shit of a company and some electricity is generated from burning coal which fucks up the planet. Doing without electricity would really make things much harder and mess up the planet even worse because the alternatives are worse.

              I’m much more in favour of risk assessment by considering the characteristics of the organism, with how those characteristics were achieved as a secondary consideration.

              For instance, one of the GE ‘success’ stories is around introducing Bt genes into corn and cotton for insect resistance with resulting reduced pesticide use. Clearly that has potential for problems if it transfers into other plants. So if the genes have been introduced via a “gene gun” or a plasmid delivered by a modified virus, then the genes are carried on free-floating bits of DNA that can easily transfer to other organisms, so I would be very wary of releasing those modified plants. But if the genes were introduced by directly editing chromosomes via a technique such as CRISPR or selective breeding, then it’s much much harder for those genes to transfer so I would be less opposed to their widespread use.

              In the case of the ryegrass being trialled, all the modified characteristics (that I’m aware of) confer competitive disadvantages to the plant in the wild. Those characteristics are very unlikely to spread even if they transfer to other plants, because any other plants expressing those modifications will instantly be preferentially eaten. Pastures using this ryegrass will require active management to retain their ‘improved’ characteristics. So this scenario is pretty close to what I think GE could and should be used for.

              • Robert Guyton

                “For instance, one of the GE ‘success’ stories is around introducing Bt genes into corn and cotton for insect resistance with resulting reduced pesticide use.”
                The “issue” with inserting Bt genes was that it ruined the possibility of a more subtle, nuanced use of Bt, as practiced by the organic movement.
                Thanks, GE industrialists!

              • Robert Guyton

                What, do you suppose, will immediately eat contaminated ryegrass “in the wild”?

                • Andre

                  Critters such as chafer beetles come to mind as something that might be a lot more enthusiastic about high-lipid nibbles than the older coarser fare that’s evolved to be unappealing to insects.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Chafer beetles will protect us all from GE pollution of the off-farm environment?
                    Tested the grasses on chafers, have they?
                    Wouldn’t want to threaten their little lives unthinkingly, would we?

          • KJT

            Unfortunately most research about the safety of GE, is behind paywalls.
            What little there is. like nano tech, about 80% of the research is about how to monetise it, and less than 10% on safety.
            So, following the precautionary principle is entirely appropriate

            Who commissions the research does affect the conclusions.
            A cynical view is justified, when it is paid for by companies such as Monsanto, considering their track record.

            • Andre

              My reply to Rosemary at above also covers your points.

            • marty mars

              + 1 yep this is not ‘clean’ – it is muddy – agendas outcomes and motives.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                “….agendas outcomes and motives.”

                Hemp….wonder plant of old that became an illegal crop in so many countries.

                Why?…a little wikihistory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemp

                Needs little if any agrichemicals…including fertiliser…
                You can eat it and wear it and they don’t call it ‘weed’ for nothing.

                Heaven forbid that the we’d ever go back in time and be allowed to grow the stuff without legal rigmarole. 😉

            • AsleepWhileWalking

              Bayer has purchased Monsanto and is now dropping the Monsanto name and using Bayer. Or more likely causing irreparable damage to the Bayer brand.

      • Robert Guyton 2.2.2

        Andre – I thought you pro-GE guys eschewed emotive arguments:
        ” if there’s a technique likely to unleash the triffids”

        • Andre

          So I’m a lousy cultist…

        • Puckish Rogue

          Apropos of nothing I’ve long considered Triffids to be the scariest of, and the grand daddy of, the modern take on zombies

    • SaveNZ 2.3

      Greenpeace: This is why we stand against GM crops

      “Take GM crops. Greenpeace’s ultimate objective is secure and nutritious food delivered in an environmentally sustainable way for all people on the planet. What are the political, economic and institutional means to deliver that outcome? What role do companies and intellectual property rights have in that process?

      The huge variety of answers to these questions means anyone who thinks the only relevant issue is whether GM crops are safe to eat is by default viewing the existing way society deals with those questions as largely satisfactory. We don’t. But that isn’t about science. That’s about the context science operates in, where the benefits of innovation fall, and the ability of governments to manage the novel safety risks that GM crops bring.

      And let’s be clear, there is evidence of risks specific to GM crops – to the environment. We need to see more research before any of them can be declared “safe”, not least because dealing with replicating organisms in an open environment is different in character from that of chemical or radiological risk.”

      “No silver bullet
      These are complex problems. Accepting that there is no silver-bullet solution to energy supply or nutritional deficiencies, what we are left with is a range of more or less good options from which to pick the best and most effective. If you rank these options on the basis of feasibility, timing, costs and deliverability, neither nuclear energy nor GM food are likely to score very highly. Nuclear energy comes at continually high costs, requires long construction times, has risks of serious accident and weapons proliferation, and leaves us with the unsolved and costly problems of radioactive waste – so it is a far less attractive option than renewables and energy efficiency.”

  3. SaveNZ 3

    When Fonterra apparently still uses palm oil and coal driers, I think there could be some much safer and simpler solutions to reduce our climate change on planet immediately, than unknown GM crops from US for profit to corporations with the NZ taxpayers picking up the risks.

    • KJT 3.1

      Most telling, is the fact that GM crop suppliers refuse to accept downstream liability, for themselves.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        “GM crop suppliers refuse to accept downstream liability…”

        And who allows that?

        We do…through the politicians we elect and through our silence.

        Because expressing concern about GE etc attracts the label ‘anti-science’.

        And we’d not like to be thought of as being ‘anti-science’ ‘cos that implies we’re a bit stoopid, eh?

    • Naki man 3.2

      “When Fonterra apparently still uses palm oil and coal driers.”

      You sound very confused SaveNZ.

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.3

      Have you read this…https://www.noted.co.nz/money/business/the-true-price-of-palm-oil/ or some other similar article?

      Palm kernel extract…. a cheap AND nasty stock feed.

      “In September 2015, to a generally angry reception from farmers and industry lobby group DairyNZ, Fonterra issued a voluntary guideline that farmers should feed lactating cows no more than 3kg of PKE a day in a diet of 18-20kg of dry matter in order to allow the dairy company to keep to its promise to export markets that its milk comes from pasture and deserves a premium price.

      What seems evident is that PKE is linked to changes in the composition of milkfat. Jocelyne Benatar, senior research doctor at the cardiovascular research unit of Auckland City Hospital, tested the fatty acids in seven brands of milk bought at New Zealand supermarkets in 2013, repeating tests she did in 2011, when there wasn’t a drought and PKE use was lower.

      The 2013 tests showed that palmitic acid, a saturated fatty acid, made up almost 30% of the total fat in the milk she tested, compared with around 15% in 2011, when other fatty acids accounted for more of the total. Oleic acid, an unsaturated fatty acid, registered more than 30% of total fat in 2013, compared with less than 10% in 2011. Trans-fatty acids, notably vaccenic acid, were also higher in the 2013 results.”

      I remember there being some serious backlash about research into how feeding PKE actually changes the milk…and not in a healthy way. Ironic that Fonterra was initially dead keen on PKE in the early days of its use because it increased the all important fat content….then some scientist came along and identified the fats….and if I recall correctly there was some messenger shooting went on.

  4. Sanctuary 4

    I feel sorry for Chris Trotter and his free speech absolutist mates.

    They’ve thrown a tanty and no one cares.

    • gsays 4.1

      I have to admit surprise as to how sides emerged over the free speech brouhaha.
      The vehemence shown, made me certainly, keep the head down.

      It’s a frustration when an issue such as free speech comes up, it is due debate and consideration but the discussion goes straight to boiling point, and I don’t even want to put my toes in the melee.

      Fwiw, we need more freedom to speak not less.

      • Sanctuary 4.1.1

        I think the lesson for Chris Trotter is to pick his battles more carefully and be even more cautious in his selection of new “friends”.

  5. Pat 5

    Its looking like DOC should be renamed the Tourism Corporation of NZ.

    “Asked about team process and reflection logs, Sanson hails the fact the department’s now got a “common language of decision-making”. “I’m very proud of the department. We’ve made huge changes over the last four years. We’re here to serve the people of New Zealand, restore biodiversity, and get New Zealand ready for another million visitors.”


  6. Ad 6

    Curious shift in Californian Senate seat race.

    85-years old Dianne Feinstein, with as much senior Democrat endorsement and local party machine support as you could wish for, got beat for Democratic Party nomination by Kevin de Leon. She’s the oldest senator, and longest-serving female Senator in the United States. Probably best remembered for her sterling work in legislation against assault rifles.

    For de Leon, though, it’s a great come-from-behind underdog win, within the Democratic Party.

    Before anyone gets ahead of themselves, he has a long way to go to being elected Senator.

    But it’s a huge boost to de León, who has been lagging in polls and only scored 12 percent of the overall tally in June’s open primary. The endorsement means that de León will be featured on official party mailouts.

    It may also give de León the legitimacy to raise the kind of campaign funds he’ll need to be competitive in a race where Feinstein has outraised him by massive numbers.

    The California Labor Federation, which endorsed de León in April but has yet to supply significant funding support through any independent expenditure, needs to show they can come through with money as well. Because a lower-profile candidate will have everything thrown at them by the opposition.

    It’s another sign of the limited renewal that the US Democratic party desperately needs, and is unevenly getting.

  7. eco maori 7

    Good Morning The Am Show Many thanks for running that story on getting more Wahine into management in Aotearoa and around Papatuanuku . We have to change the whole mind set of te tangata of Papatuanuku male dominance has been bulit into our socity over the last 200 years bulling has to be stopped because this is a trait that males use to dominate wahine and what do you know some male has been touring te Papatuanuku displaying this behaviour to the rest of the Papatuanuku . We have a lot of work ahead of us to correct this problem.
    A 4 day work week could work for some but not all we could become a lot more efficient with less days travel to work better still no traveling .
    With middle aged employment they are stereotyped as being slow not as prouductive as a young person so there is a perceived advantage to hire the young person also the employer is younger and they don’t like having a more life experenced person in there employment as this makes the employer feel inadequate.
    In reality the elderly person would be more productive than the younger person make less mistakes and solve more problems as well I would employ the elder person.
    Many thanks to the Australian National Rugby League for inducing the Great Kiwi League player Mark Graeme to be the first Kiwi in the NRL Hall of Fame ka pai.
    A electric car subsidy is a good call Duncan that would be the fastest way to reduce our carbon foot print in Aotearoa .Ka kite ano

  8. eco maori 8

    Nice job that shonkys national party have done over the last 9 years they have put Aotearoa in the best position we’v been in in decades . YEA RIGHT Here’s reality
    They have cost us a wasted of 9 years one can never get that back and a bill of $40 billion in the cost of carbon credits thats the reality they played musical hot seat game with our government departments over the last 9 years IE when one mp got the bad press or heat as I put it they past the hot seat to the next mp to deflect the bad press. as for the super ministry what did he do nothing but cover up the big mess that they were making . that’s they way Eco Maori see it Ka kite ano link below .

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/03/08/95301/think-climate-change-cost-142-billion-try-36-billion# P.S we have the opportunity now to reverse this money mans shonky’s mess now

  9. Eco Maori 9

    Eco Maori knows what going down I see the bigger picture some people better start heeding Papatuanukue warning Ka kite ano

  10. eco maori 10

    Here is a man that I agree with the link is Below ana to kai A lot of neo liberals around Aotearoa and Papatuanuku will be gritting there teeth Ka kite ano


  11. eco maori 11

    This is what happens when the neo liberals bone heads get a hold of your country it slips back a hundred years on Waihine’s Equal rights everyones Equal rights WTF this is the place were democracy started us left humane intelligent tangata have to keep up the good fight for Equality for all the link is below. Ka kite ano.


  12. eco maori 12

    Some tangata think that because a animal is not human it does not have a intelligent brain we are learning that that perception is totally wrong we need to treat all other being with respect ka kite ano link is below.


  13. eco maori 13

    This is going to be the big challenge to humanity and Papatuanuku Mega city’s we need to start planing and researching and build Mega city’s that work with Papatuanuku to provide a good environment for all Papatuanuku’s beings not just humans as Papatuanuku is for all beings to enjoy Ka kite ano link below.


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