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Open mike 18/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 18th, 2013 - 141 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

141 comments on “Open mike 18/06/2013 ”

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  1. Morrissey 1
    18 June 2013 at 6:45 am

    Humbug Corner
    No. 4: MIKE BUSH

    “It’s always an honor to be asked to come and pay tribute to someone with a career as long and distinguished as Bruce’s…. integrity beyond reproach…. It’s a great tragedy and an irony that a man of such great character should have been subject to those accusations.”

    —-Deputy Police Commissioner Mike Bush, speaking at funeral of notorious bent cop Bruce Hutton, April 10, 2013.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=132106

    Humbug Corner is dedicated to gathering, and highlighting, the most striking examples of faux solicitude, insincere apologies, and particularly stupid recycling of official canards. It is produced by the Insincerity Project®, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    More appalling humbug….
    No. 3 Dean Lonergan: “Y’ know what? The only people who will mock them are people who are dwarfists.”
    No. 2 Peter Dunne: “What a load of drivel and sanctimonious humbug…”

    Open mike 09/06/2013


    No.1 Dominic Bowden: “It’s okay to be speechless.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02062013/#comment-642288

  2. Morrissey 2
    18 June 2013 at 6:56 am

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 22: Mike Bush

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “…integrity beyond reproach….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Deputy Police Commissioner Mike Bush, eulogizing corrupt cop Bruce Hutton, found by a Royal Commission of Inquiry to have planted false evidence to frame an innocent man for a double murder.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=132106

    See also….
    No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”
    No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”
    No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”
    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”
    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”
    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”
    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    No.13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

    Open mike 27/05/2013


    No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”
    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
    
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
    
No. 6 NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    
No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594

    No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

    No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    
No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
    
No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

  3. Morrissey 3
    18 June 2013 at 7:23 am

    Amnesty’s skewed priorities
    by zemblan and Joe Emersberger, Media Lens, 17.6.13

    A revealing snippet from the Guardian‘s ‘Politics Live Blog’ on the G8 Summit:

    3.15pm: ‘Amnesty International are being allowed through the gates of the summit to deliver a letter to Vladimir Putin. As Henry McDonald reports, they will tell the Russian President to release the punk protest band Pussy Riot, two of whom are still in jail. A number of Amnesty activists will wear balaclavas similar to the ones the band don when they go on stage.’

    They apparently didn’t have the mental wherewithal to write a letter condemning the US government’s persecution of whistleblowers like Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden. Nor did they have the initiative to condemn the British government’s treatment of Julian Assange.

    Amnesty gave jailed Pussy Riot members Prisoner of Conscience designation within about two months of their incarceration.

    Manning has been jailed and tortued in broad daylight for years and Amnesty has said it has been “investigating” all these years if he really qualifies as a Prisoner of Conscience.

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1371483719.html

    • muzza 3.1
      18 June 2013 at 7:50 am

      Sounds like more of the, staged *theatre news*, Mozza.

      Amnesty Intl, simply part of the aparati, designed to subvert, and divert any chance of genuine movements, by creating a faux notion of *caring*.

      Phooey!

  4. just saying 4
    18 June 2013 at 7:43 am

    http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/the-jonathan-safran-foer-fallacy.html

    Giovani Tiso’s latest.
    It is political:

    “With each generation, it becomes harder to imagine a future that resembles the present…”.

    Teaser:

    …These inventions were not created to be improvements upon face-to-face communication, but a declension of acceptable, if diminished, substitutes for it. I’m almost sure that’s right: a computer is just a more complex telephone. Also, the word ‘declension’: yeah.

    But then a funny thing happened: we began to prefer the diminished substitutes. It’s easier to make a phone call than to schlep to see someone in person. Leaving a message on someone’s machine is easier than having a phone conversation. So we began calling when we knew no one would pick up. Especially our brother-in-law, Frank. How we all hate talking to Frank.

    Shooting off an e-mail is easier, still, because one can hide behind the absence of vocal inflection, and of course there’s no chance of accidentally catching Frank. And texting is even easier, as the expectation for articulateness is further reduced, and another shell is offered to hide in. Each step “forward” has made it easier, just a little, to avoid the emotional work of being present, to convey information rather than humanity…

    • AsleepWhileWalking 4.1
      18 June 2013 at 7:50 am

      Not sure about texting being easier. It would be if I could convert speech to text but then I’d have to go to all the effort of searching for an app.

  5. AmaKiwi 5
    18 June 2013 at 7:46 am

    It is a crime to conceal a crime.

    Can it also be a crime to reveal a crime?

    Bradley, Assange, and Snowden are accused of revealing crimes committed by the world’s deadliest terrorist organization: the US military.

    “The phrase “war on terrorism” should always be used in quotes, because there can’t possibly be a war on terrorism. It’s impossible. The reason is it’s led by one of the worst terrorist states in the world, in fact, it’s led by the only state in the world which has been condemned by the highest international authorities for international terrorism, namely the World Court and Security Council, except that the US vetoed the resolution.” Noam Chomsky

  6. AsleepWhileWalking 6
    18 June 2013 at 8:23 am

    RIP Anti-racism dog @anti_racicm_dog.. nevermore will we hear your barking.

    The account @Anti_Racism_Dog didn’t last long. Twitter suspended it quickly, a fate reserved only for the most aggressive, abusive and hateful users. What could a dog – an anti-racist one, at that – do to deserve it? @Anti_Racism_Dog had one real function: to bark at racist speech on Twitter. The account responded to tweets it deemed racist with the simple response ‘bark bark bark!’ Sometimes it would send wags to supporters but that was pretty much it.

    For the short time it lasted, it was amazing to watch how people reacted to @Anti_Racism_Dog.

    snip

    Colour-blind racists feed on good-faith debate, and engaging with them, especially online, is almost always futile. But when they’re barked at by a dog, one whose only quality is anti-racism, they flip the fuck out. They demand to be engaged in debate (‘Tell me how what I said was racist!’) or appeal to objective definitions (‘The dictionary says racist means X, therefore nothing I said was racist’), but @Anti_Racism_Dog just barks.

    #BringBackTheDog
    http://redefiningbodyimage.tumblr.com/post/52750516768/writeswrongs-girljanitor-ghostdaddotcx

    • AsleepWhileWalking 6.1
      18 June 2013 at 8:24 am


      A true troll doesn’t have a position to protect because to establish one would leave it vulnerable to attack, and playing defence takes time. @Anti_Racism_Dog, by fully assuming the persona of an animal, was invulnerable to counter-attack. You can’t explain yourself to a dog and you look like an idiot trying. The only way to win is not to play but this is the colour-blind racist’s Achilles Heel: they’re compelled to defend themselves against accusations of racism. It’s the anti-racist argument that gives them content; theirs is an ideology that’s in large part a list of counter-arguments. After all, white-supremacists are already winning – their task now is to keep the same racist structures in place while making plausibly colour-blind arguments against dismantling them. @Anti_Racism_Dog was empty of anything other than accusation and so left its targets sputtering.

      The account served a second purpose: as a sort of anti-racist hunting dog. @Anti_Racism_Dog quickly attracted a lot of like-minded followers who understood the dynamics at play. Whenever it would start barking at another user, this was a cue to the dog’s followers to troll the offender as well. There’s only so much one dog can do alone. Colour-blind racism is particularly dangerous because it isn’t immediately visible as such. It provokes good-faith discussion from liberals about what counts as racism, muddying the water. But @Anti_Racism_Dog’s strategy draws new lines about what constitutes acceptable discourse on race, placing colour-blind racists on the other side by speaking to them like an animal. What would be taken as totally insane in flesh space can be infuriatingly clever online.

  7. Dv 7
    18 June 2013 at 9:04 am

    Re the Media works receivership

    How can the IRD be left out I though the IRD were first in line?

    AND its westpac who put them into receivership and effectively screwing our IRD out of 22 million

    • Colonial Viper 7.1
      18 June 2013 at 9:08 am

      Oh the IRD aren’t going to be taking this passively mate, don’t worry.

    • Pascal's bookie 7.2
      18 June 2013 at 9:24 am

      Key’s reckons that tax debt is highly secured, but journos on twitter are suggesting he doesn’t know what he’s talking about:

      https://mobile.twitter.com/MattNippert/status/346733463069675522?p=v

    • infused 7.3
      18 June 2013 at 9:40 am

      It’s the same thing Macleans IT did in auckland.

      • Tigger 7.3.1
        18 June 2013 at 10:43 am

        How much longer is the public going to continue to prop up Mediaworks? They consider themselves so independent but with this and NZOA funding they’re sucking on the taxpayer teat like a newborn rat.

        • felix 7.3.1.1
          18 June 2013 at 9:18 pm

          Funny ain’t it? The same Nats who seem happy for the state to fund this private network also want to sell Radio NZ.

          ‘Cos, y’know, the state has no business owning a radio network etc etc.

          Fucking joke is what it is.

    • mickysavage 7.4
      18 June 2013 at 5:59 pm

      How can the IRD be left out I though the IRD were first in line?

      If the sale price is only for the amount owing to the banks and the purchaser then voluntarily agrees to pay all creditors except for IRD then it can happen.

      • Herodotus 7.4.1
        18 June 2013 at 9:43 pm

        There also are the issues of employment contracts, bonuses leave entitlements and howthese fall in the ranking of payments and the ability to transfers these to another entity.
        then there are existing Nzoa grants to programms that are currently under production,( and I understand that many production coys are independent of the tv station that airs them ) there are many avenues that the greater “govt ” can withhold existing funding to media works,ability to transfer the broadcasting license.
        There could also be potential of fraud as there under your scenario a scripted plan to defraud a or some creditors. I am sure that media works have some gifted lawyers that will protect the parent coy yet close investigation could find an t uncrossed or an I that is not doted. The govt has to be seen doing all it can against such a corporate that has displayed such contempt towards this country.
        These are just a few random thoughts 😉

  8. One Anonymous Knucklehead 8
    18 June 2013 at 9:29 am

    Brighter Future™, right this way please.

  9. beatie 9
    18 June 2013 at 9:35 am

    http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/details-of-claimants-commitments-emerge/

    ‘Jobcentre advisors will have unprecedented powers to compel claimants to carry out whatever old bollocks they can come up with to waste unemployed people’s time looking for jobs which aren’t there. Those who do not meet their Claimant Commitment could face having benefits stopped for up to three years. For those with children this could be devastating, for those severely unwell or disabled it could mean death.’

    This is the UK model that Paula is following. I have severe rheumatoid arthritis and am on the invalid benefit, soon to become the ‘supported living payment’. I have so far managed to stymie attempts to move me to the sickness benefit, soon to be the jobseekers allowance. But I expect further harassment. I did not choose to have this disease which has cost me two careers, I can cope with living on less than $300 per week but I find it difficult to cope with the harassment from MSD and the ‘bludging beneficiary’ label. Since the Natz, a lot of Invalid beneficiaries have been dumped onto the Sickness Benefit ( a process started by Labour). Many of these people have psychiatric disabilities and stress is the last thing they need. But Johnny reckons he’ll have the welfare bill down regardless and Labour refuse to say different. Meanwhile we wait in fear…..

    • Rogue Trooper 9.1
      18 June 2013 at 10:21 am

      …one day at a time.

    • marty mars 9.2
      18 June 2013 at 10:32 am

      I am so sorry that you have to face this harassment beatie – it is a blight on our society that those who need help get treated the way you are – kia kaha. I can appreciate the fear you feel and the additional stress this is giving you and your family – what a terrible situation to be in for you – all the best.

      • johnm 9.2.1
        18 June 2013 at 12:40 pm

        Hi beatie and marty mars “I am so sorry that you have to face this harassment beatie”
        Yes it is harassment re John Minto the government want to remove 100,000 off the benefit in the next 10 years:
        “Government’s plan to push 100,000 off welfare with no job plan in place is shameful

        “It’s shameful that the government is pressing ahead with this latest round of welfare changes”, says John Minto, Vice-President of the MANA Movement. “When the Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Bill comes up in the House for its second reading later today there’s only one place it belongs – in the rubbish, because that’s how it treats people impacted by it –as rubbish.”

        The bill marks the second big step in the wave of reforms initiated by Paula Bennett and Paula Rebstock back in 2010, all aimed at getting up to 100,000 beneficiaries off welfare in the next ten years.”

        http://mana.net.nz/2013/03/governments-plan-to-push-100000-off-welfare-with-no-job-plan-in-place-is-shameful/

        This government intends to fit beneficiaries onto a procrustian bed of shame and harassment and distress to save themselves money to give the rich more tax cuts and pay private organisations to do the dirty work like ATOS in the U$K. Shame on them. It’s to be an exercise in sadism to satisfy the propaganda they’ve been spewing for over a decade: People like Michael Laws. Atos in the U$K is a criminal harassment organisation funded by a criminal government that has caused the deaths of many people.

        “In Greek mythology, Procrustes (Προκρούστης) or “the stretcher [who hammers out the metal]”, also known as Prokoptas or Damastes (Δαμαστής) “subduer”, was a rogue smith and bandit from Attica who physically attacked people by stretching them or cutting off their legs, so as to force them to fit the size of an iron bed. In general, when something is Procrustean, different lengths or sizes or properties are fitted to an arbitrary standard.”

    • xtasy 9.3
      18 June 2013 at 11:47 am

      beatie – Sorry to hear your distress and concerns.

      Yes, I and a fair few others are equally worried, about what Bennett and her ‘Work and Insult” department will present to us from next month on. I have information that MSD (the Ministry) is already actively seeking requests for proposals for having mentally ill on benefits referred to outsourced service providers, who are supposed to get them into some kind of work.

      It is all still in the process and kept from the public eye and ear, but they are wanting to commission agencies, who may be NGOs or employment agencies, to try placing mentally ill youth in Auckland at least into jobs, for which the providers will be offered “rewarding” fees.

      WINZ will refer clients that are considered “fit” to do certain work to those providers, and naturally they will have expectations.

      Nothing has been published about future assessments in detail, but looking at some policy documents that were released to the media a few months back, there are going to be various “tools” they will use, from self assessments, to targeted interviews with certain WINZ staff, up to the supposed “independent” examinations and assessments that may be done by medical staff, rehab staff or others they will select to do this.

      It is scandalous that the government passed the Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Act without informing the opposition parties and MPs, nor the public, about how they will decide who will be capable to do some work, and who not.

      This is again a secret agenda, and I am sure, they will in future be much less transparent in anything they will do, as they got quite a scare when some took them on about unfair, unreasonable and not fact based recommendations by certain designated doctors and their health and disability advisors.

      Yet from what I also hear, it seems they are going to tread more carefully than DWP have in the UK, because having people commit suicide, or harm themselves in other ways, that will not be the headlines Paula Bennett and John Key want here.

      So be mindful, alert and prepared, but do not freak yourself out too much. In any case, prepare by already connecting with advocates, support networks and others, friends and family included, so when they come to challenge you, take witnesses to assessments and else.

      At some stage there will likely be legal challenges on all what they will try, and I expect WINZ and MSD to breach natural justice in many cases. If people get together, pull resources and efforts together, and perhaps find a good lawyer, who may be prepared to take WINZ on, then something will be achieved.

      Apart from all this: I am still furious that WINZ and MSD also always tell clients to use their websites, but it is hard to get to some of their offices, their kiosks and computers are often booked out, and the same applies to public libraries. Internet cafes cost money, so do home connections.

      When do MSD and WINZ live up to the 21st century standards of communication and not only cover phone line costs for sick and disabled, but also internet access, I ask???!

  10. Veutoviper 10
    18 June 2013 at 10:09 am

    Two-faced Bridges – tells Parliament one thing and does another.

    Last week he told Parliament that he would be meeting with ILO officials in Geneva to discuss his employment law changes – but now he is in Geneva he is refusing to meet with them.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1306/S00299/simon-bridges-misleads-parliament.htm

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1306/S00216/minister-refuses-ilo-advice.htm

    • Rosie 10.1
      18 June 2013 at 10:37 am

      Ugh! The vomit inducing Bridges! He’s a lying sneaky rat, no different to his peers and should not be in the position he is in.

      Perhaps he just can’t face the possibility of being scrutinised and held to account by the ILO. If he has a change a heart and does meet with the ILO maybe they can take up the issue of the 90 day bill while they’re at it. I had thought that the denial of access to legal representation in the case of a workplace personal grievance was against one of the ILO conventions. Not sure which number though. Does anyone know?

  11. Belladonna 11
    18 June 2013 at 10:12 am

    I also have rheumatoid arthritis. It is an incurable disease so how can you be taken off an invalid benefit onto sickness benefit. My understanding of invalids is that there is no chance of cure within 2 years and sickness benefit 6 months. Has this criteria changed? RA is a brutal, painful disease and the added stress of worrying about this must be terrible. Do you have an understanding doctor/rheumatologist. I feel for you. Good luck.

    • beatie 11.1
      18 June 2013 at 11:36 am

      I went to my GP for a Winz medical cert and he gave me one for 3 months, he said if ‘I could drive, I could work’ and ‘I needed to consider paying back to society the cost of a recent joint replacement’ I’m not kidding! I asked my rheumatologist and he gave me one for 5 years. Now, I think you have to use a Winz ‘designated doctor’ who follows the ‘arbeit mact frei’ Winz line. The idea that the Invalid Benefit is for long-term/incurable illnesses was dismantled by the last Labour govt. I have a friend who has schizophrenia who is on the sickness/jobseeker allowance and will be harassed to find a job and sanctioned if they fail to comply. I think that most NZ’ers don’t have the faintest idea of how these ‘reforms’ will impact on those with a disability.

      • Rogue Trooper 11.1.1
        18 June 2013 at 11:40 am

        this is a really revealing account beatie.

      • Rosetinted 11.1.2
        18 June 2013 at 12:25 pm

        I have a friend who has schizophrenia who is on the sickness/jobseeker allowance and will be harassed to find a job and sanctioned if they fail to comply. I think that most NZ’ers don’t have the faintest idea of how these ‘reforms’ will impact on those with a disability.

        Harrassment and denigration. It seems that a great number of NZs always middle-class plus those who have moved up the income ladder with social aspirations, never accepted the idea of a social contract and concern for all. See David Bennett Mp comment elsewhere on TS today.

        The stats may very well be that 10% of beneficiaries may be fraudulent, not doing their bit to help themselves and put into society, 10% find jobs which they can manage and live on and are probably helped into at the beginning. The rest are going to have this gang of harpies and witch-hunters after them. What a soul destroying job to have to work for WINZ. It’s likely to produce a resentment that as they have to suffer so they will pass it on.

        • Arfamo 11.1.2.1
          18 June 2013 at 12:29 pm

          Yep. Sounds like the story behind yesterday’s armed man in wheelchair incident in Auckland, as somebody speculated here might be the case before the perp was taken into custody.

      • weka 11.1.3
        18 June 2013 at 1:05 pm

        beatie, I would suggest getting a different GP. Unless you are in a really small town, you should have a choice. You don’t have to put up with ideological bullying.

        • beatie 11.1.3.1
          18 June 2013 at 2:31 pm

          (I do live in a very small town with a doctor shortage, so changing is difficult. However I refuse to see him and see a locum if I need to. He instructed his office staff not to accept beneficiaries onto his books. Unfortunately this attitude underlies Winz welfare ‘reforms’. The chief medical advisor to Winz, Dr David Bratt, (appointed under Labour) believes that being on a benefit is worse than heroin addiction. Those who choose to believe that beneficiaries are rorting the system have no idea and are a huge part of the problem. Try getting on, staying on and surviving on a benefit before uttering such smug fallacies.

          • xtasy 11.1.3.1.1
            18 June 2013 at 3:12 pm

            “He instructed his office staff not to accept beneficiaries onto his books.”

            This is a breach of the Human Rights Act, for sure!!!

            A doctor has no right and breaches also the Code of Ethics of the NZ medical profession, if he does this. I see the problem you may have to prove this, as his staff will not say what they have been told by him.

            Document everything he does and says to you and perhaps others, and consider making a complaint to the Health and Disability Commissioner, even though that office is also rather useless in many ways.

            A sad state of affairs there is, in especially the more rural areas of N.Z..

            • beatie 11.1.3.1.1.1
              18 June 2013 at 4:42 pm

              He is a wealthy South African immigrant and he owns his practice. His office worker came to our advocacy organisation with an employment complaint and she told us about the ‘no beneficiaries’ rule. He’s pissed off a lot of local people but so far got away with it. It’s difficult to prove these matters. Incidentally at least one of the local real-estate agents also has a ‘no beneficiaries’ policy. It’s difficult to keep these things quiet in a small town.

              • Rogue Trooper …
                18 June 2013 at 5:48 pm

                That is why the Devil made guns.

                • Arfamo …
                  18 June 2013 at 5:52 pm

                  The devil made guns to give Americans the opportunity to obtain them to protect themselves from other Americans who obtain them and make everybody safer. I am reliably informed by sources in Iran that the devil is actually an American.

          • weka 11.1.3.1.2
            18 June 2013 at 5:54 pm

            How far to the nearest other town with a GP beatie? I think you definitely have a case for claiming transport costs from WINZ to see someone else.

            I would keep notes, with times, dates etc of what is said. You can also ask to have a practice nurse sit in on any consult, or even a Health and Disability advocate. It’s amazing the things some people won’t say when there is a witness. And if he does say them, you have proof.

      • xtasy 11.1.4
        18 June 2013 at 3:02 pm

        “I went to my GP for a Winz medical cert and he gave me one for 3 months, he said if ‘I could drive, I could work’ and ‘I needed to consider paying back to society the cost of a recent joint replacement’ I’m not kidding!”

        How disgusting a GP that is! Sadly the same people that have been known for pushing the whole agenda, who include ones like Dr David Beaumont (formerly from ATOS) – as advisor for MSD (and others), like Dr Des Gorman, Chief of Health Workforce NZ (in charge of recruitment and involved also in working on training programs for staff in the medical field), who also is now on the board of ACC, who gave some appalling advice on past ACC cases, and possibly still is the top man on the National Health Board, same as of course Dr David Bratt, Principal Health Advisor for MSD (comparing benefit dependence to drug dependence), plus of course Prof. Mansel Aylward (one of the key propagators of “work being the best treatment to get well”, advisor to Paula Bennett, also due to speak to a leading GP conference in Rotorua in a week or so) and “Dame Black” (like Aylward also from the UK), they have all been involved in sending the same “messages” to medical practitioners.

        Doctors are also being lobbied, trained and influenced, to work along the new philosophy, following the perverted interpretation of the “bio-psycho social model” for illness and disability issues, as DWP in the UK and now WINZ in New Zealand are pushing for.

        It goes beyond WINZ’s designated doctors and health and disability advisors now, and some doctors are concerned.

        That GP of yours needs a good reminder of his Code of Ethics, which ensures that the well-being of the patient comes before all else!

        I am glad a more competent, properly qualified professional gave you a better, more sympathetic treatment.

        That is what I tell all affected. Do not just rely on your GP, go and consult a specialist in the very health areas you suffer from, be this a rheumatoligist, an orthopaedic specialist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, counsellor, or whatever!

        GPs often lack sufficient in depth knowledge, but of course they would never admit it. They like to call themselves “specialist generalists”, what a contradiction in terms, really!

        • Arfamo 11.1.4.1
          18 June 2013 at 3:14 pm

          I dunno. It’s a mixed bag with GPs. Mine had no problem completing medical certificates for IBs for people who really were not able to work. She had a problem with being abused for not completing them for a small fraction of patients who were fit for work, after WINZ had reportedly told them no problem getting your benefit extended, just get your GP to sign the certificate. Mind you, that discussion took place about 5 years ago. Things are a lot different now, but my GP will still be batting & even battling for genuine cases.

          • beatie 11.1.4.1.1
            18 June 2013 at 4:56 pm

            Unfortunately yes things are a lot different now. My latest letter from Winz warned me not to jet off overseas without informing them first (so they could cut my benefit). Reality check….today I treated myself to a 3 month car reg (no public transport here).

            • Arfamo 11.1.4.1.1.1
              18 June 2013 at 5:00 pm

              Well to be fair it is pretty important for the thousands of beneficiaries who regularly embark on overseas shopping trips to let WINZ know they’ll be offshore visiting overseas thrift & pawn shops for a few days.

          • beatie 11.1.4.1.2
            18 June 2013 at 6:01 pm

            ‘it’s a mixed bag with GPs. Mine had no problem completing medical certificates for IBs for people who really were not able to work.’ Hmmm. I can work, I’d love to work and I think I have a lot to offer, but I would need lots of days off when I’m unwell and I can’t type very fast because my hands are crippled. So whether you can do paid work or not is not the issue. I can work but no-one will employ me, especially when I’m competing withe the able-bodied..I believe the whole point of these reforms is to drive down wages and conditions for those who have paid work.

        • weka 11.1.4.2
          18 June 2013 at 6:04 pm

          That GP of yours needs a good reminder of his Code of Ethics, which ensures that the well-being of the patient comes before all else!

          I am glad a more competent, properly qualified professional gave you a better, more sympathetic treatment.

          That is what I tell all affected. Do not just rely on your GP, go and consult a specialist in the very health areas you suffer from, be this a rheumatoligist, an orthopaedic specialist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, counsellor, or whatever!

          GPs often lack sufficient in depth knowledge, but of course they would never admit it. They like to call themselves “specialist generalists”, what a contradiction in terms, really!

          Plenty of specialists who are arseholes too unfortunately. I’ve come across some excellent GPs too. It really comes down to the individual person. And for the beneficiary, what kind of disability/illness they have is critical to who they should see. Some are going to be better off with a compassionate GP rather than an unsympathetic specialist.

          • xtasy 11.1.4.2.1
            19 June 2013 at 9:44 pm

            weka – as for medical professionals, any of us, whether affected and needing reports on conditions and illnesses from GPs or others, we should never be forced to do something like “doctor shopping”, for those that do their job, or as you describe as being sympathetic.

            All of them have to abide by Codes of Ethics, and if they do not abide by them, they should be exposed, criticised and attacked for it. They may be in the wrong job, if they do not take their code serious.

            Abuse by some “patients” may be attempted and may happen, but I see also that some medical staff are trying to not follow the codes and just do not want to bother with beneficiaries. That is unacceptable.

            It is totally unacceptable to explain bias and prejudice away with “individual persons” acting differently.

            Then you may as well tolerate the application of the Sharia in New Zealand, by those who think that is necessary to keep “order”!

            • weka 11.1.4.2.1.1
              19 June 2013 at 10:00 pm

              In your previous comment you seemed to be saying that people on medical benefits should see a specialist because GPs are fairly useless. I was pointing out that the qualification or area of specialisation of the doctor is irrelevant, it’s the compassion and politics of the practitioner that counts when it comes to support with WINZ shit. Just because someone is a specialist, it doesn’t mean they will be competent at dealing with WINZ.

              I agree with you that bias and lack of professional ethics is unacceptable. That’s an issue for NZ and medical practitioners to sort out. Advice to beneficiaries… I stand by making the suggestion that they choose a practitioner who isn’t an arsehole and go to some length to do that even if it does mean shopping around. Many people still believe they have to take shit from their doctor because their doctor is their doctor and can’t be changed. That’s just bullshit. I also acknowledge that for some people it is very difficult to be assertive enough to change doctors, esp where there is not much choice.

              • xtasy …
                21 June 2013 at 1:53 am

                Ok, I suggested seeing a specialist, because MSD and WINZ can also turn around and say themselves (that is their case managers, or the more secretive Regional Health Advisors or Disability Advisors), well, that is what her or his GP says. We think though, the GP may not be the best medical “expert” to listen to, so hey, send the client to a designated doctor, who may have some extra “specialised skills” that appear to be more appropriate.

                Then the client gets sent there and gets assessed by a WINZ trained and picked doctor, who will be less sympathetic.

                In view of such possibilities I think it would make sense to go and see a specialist, who is also perhaps sympathetic at the same time, to cover oneself in case WINZ try to question reports. MSD and WINZ have many tricks up their sleeves, and so getting ones own specialist before they may come with their own doctors for a second opinion, seems advisable from my point of view.

                It would certainly make sense to try and consult a specialist, if the own GP is not very sympathetic. But of course then I would try and also find a new GP.

                I accept your point that some are scared to change doctors. Yes, it is understandable, as it involves looking around and approaching other doctors, whom one does not know. Then there are very private informations involved also. Changing a doctor is not done easily, as any person doing so wants to know that the new doctor can be trusted. Also those living in small towns and rural regions, they will have a very limited choice amongst doctors. I have heard enough feedback from some, who would have to travel large distances to see another doctor. When you are on a benefit such travel may be impossible or prohibitively expensive.

                And challenging a doctor in such scenarios is not easy either, as the doctor may be well respected with others in such more “conservative” places. The media in such places will also not want to write critical reports on a local doctor, who could go and sue them for alleged defamation. Staff working for the doctor will not want to risk their jobs and say what they know.

                I feel for people in such remote areas, as they live under conditions allowing little choice and making it very difficult to challenge unreasonableness, discrimination and what else there may be. So it pays to establish contacts to outsiders, who may be able to raise matters via channels like this forum, to at least raise awareness.

    • weka 11.2
      18 June 2013 at 1:24 pm

      “My understanding of invalids is that there is no chance of cure within 2 years and sickness benefit 6 months. Has this criteria changed? ”

      IB has become Supported Living Payment. Within that, some people will be assessed to see if they are work ready (either full or part time).

      Sickness benefit has become part of the Job-seeker benefit ie they are in the same general category as unemployed people, but will have different assessment processes, depending on their illness.

      From WINZ, SLP

      Assessing your ability to work

      We may ask some people on Supported Living Payment to do a self-assessment to tell us about the sort of work they think they might be able to do, and how we could help them to achieve that.
      In some cases, we may also ask people to meet with an independent health professional as part of our assessment process.
      These aren’t things we’ll ask everyone to do, as it will depend on people’s circumstances.

      I take that to mean that not much has changed technically (still using designated doctors etc), but they are formalising processes so that it’s easier for them to target IBs for work. But as it says, it won’t be everyone, so anyone on IB should be making sure their GP is competent at supporting them for when the time comes.

      Re SB

      People receiving the following benefits on 15 July 2013 will transfer to Jobseeker Support:
      Unemployment Benefit
      Sickness Benefit
      Domestic Purposes Benefit (Sole Parents with youngest child aged 14 or over, and Women Alone)
      Widow’s Benefit (without children, or with youngest child aged 14 or over).
      …

      New obligations and other changes that apply to you

      To receive Jobseeker Support, there are some new things you must do. These are listed below. At any time, if you can’t meet these requirements, please talk to us. Unless you have a good reason for not meeting them, your benefit could reduce or stop.

      Accepting offers of suitable employment
      If you’re required to look for work, and from 15 July 2013 you turn down a suitable job without a good reason, your benefit will reduce by up to half (if you have dependent children) or stop (if you don’t have dependent children) for a 13-week period.

      If you’ve given us a medical certificate
      There’s no change to what your current medical certificate means for your obligations, or what you need to do when it expires. We may ask you to do a self-assessment. This is an opportunity for you to tell us about the sort of work you think you can do now or in future, and how we could help you back into work.

      Plus some stuff about drug testing.

      I take that to mean that the UB rules will apply to SB, once the SB person has been assessed for work.

      The self-assessment thing should be treated with the utmost caution, because they will be able to use that against people later. eg “I’d really like to be able to do some voluntary work at some point” becomes “they’re capable of working and should be looking for a part time job”.

      As per usual, the people that have good skills at dealing with abusive systems will do ok-ish, the people that don’t will get hammered. Fuck Key, Bennet, bigots, and all the liberal middle classes who are letting this happen on their watch.

      Xtasy’s advice is excellent So be mindful, alert and prepared, but do not freak yourself out too much. In any case, prepare by already connecting with advocates, support networks and others, friends and family included, so when they come to challenge you, take witnesses to assessments and else. I would add, get everything in writing.

      • beatie 11.2.1
        18 June 2013 at 2:36 pm

        Good advice! I don’t trust Winz and avoid them if at all possible. A lot of people on IB are former ACC clients who were dumped onto a benefit. Meanwhile there is a deafening silence from mainstream disability organisations about this. Hoping to pick up future contracts I guess.

        • xtasy 11.2.1.1
          18 June 2013 at 3:22 pm

          Beatie – We have an almost undeclared ‘strategic war’ by Minister Bennett and MSD against advocacy groups.

          Those that have been working in advocacy for years know this, and they are confronted by this. Funding is stopped, or limited, or re-arranged, so some, like here in Auckland long running Mangere Budgeting Service had to dismiss staff, others are facing closure.

          They are all over-burdened but get insufficient funds to do their jobs.

          Budgeting services do now have to follow very restrictive operational rules, limiting them to just do what MSD want the to do, to tell beneficiaries to learn to live off the benefit – no matter what, as they will not get more. True advocacy is only possible by doing extra time and putting in extra effort, it is not paid for anymore.

          And the disability advocates do (like many of the advocacy and budgeting services) also largely depend from direct or indirect state funding.

          So they are kept in dependence, which means they do not dare to bite the hand that feeds them. Bennett and her Ministry have the upper hand, they know it, and they lay down the law as they please.

          As there will be much out-sourcing of services, yes, some will be keen to look at what they can sign up for, to “assist” some sick and disabled into open employment, for nice fees that MSD is going to pay for them.

          No surprise there, as that allows Bennett to go around and behave so “cocky” as she often comes across. She earns 5000 or more dollars a week, and she has long forgotten, where she once came from!

          • beatie 11.2.1.1.1
            18 June 2013 at 4:08 pm

            Until recently I was part of an advocacy organisation in my town. we were volunteers and we assisted people with Winz, Acc, employment and tenancy issues etc. There is a huge need out there for this sort of service.We got a trickle of funding because there is no CAB here. However that dried up and when we queried it we were accused of ‘biting the hand that feeds us’. Meanwhile organisations that say they do advocacy, but don’t got $1000’s. Also those of us on benefits were targeted by Winz because, if we could do voluntary work we could do paid work, couldn’t we? One of us (head injury, ex nurse) and particularly good at advocacy was moved from IB to SB because she pissed our local Winz workers off. There’s some nasty bastards out there.
            I’m disclosing a lot of personal info here but I think that a lot of people are in real trouble out there and others don’t know/care/give a fuck.

            • xtasy 11.2.1.1.1.1
              19 June 2013 at 12:27 am

              Thanks beatie, it sounds like you have been through a lot, and you have certainly done the right thing by doing some advocacy for others.

              Yes, I know, there are some mean jerks within WINZ, but then again some are also ok. In the end they are all public servants, and that means, they get instructions, and must follow them, or they will themselves get trouble for not doing so.

              It is the chain of command, and the system keeps us all in some forms of chains of dominance and command.

              That was also what enabled Hitler and the Nazis to do what they did, to exploit the fear of people to step out of line and not co-operate.

              What WINZ do cannot be compared to that, but it is highly worrisome and increasingly inhumane, in some cases criminal. So at some stage civil disobedience should become the duty of those pushed too far to do things that just are not right.

              Raising awareness here and elsewhere is a start to spread the truth about what is going on. Ideally more will wake up and raise their voice of disagreement and protest. That is what we must work for. We need people to ask themselves whether this is right, and come to the right conclusion, and then join us and take action.

      • Puddleglum 11.2.2
        18 June 2013 at 9:05 pm

        “If you’re required to look for work, and from 15 July 2013 you turn down a suitable job without a good reason, your benefit will reduce by up to half (if you have dependent children) or stop (if you don’t have dependent children) for a 13-week period.”

        An awful lot hangs on that phrase “without a good reason“.

        Back in 1991 I was unemployed – perfectly timed to coincide with the benefit cuts and introduction of draconian rules just like this one. At the time there was a rule that if you turned down work (not just ‘a permanent job’) you had a strike against you. You had two strikes and then, next time, you had your benefit stopped (I think that was how it worked).

        Well, I lined up for my weekly scouring of the jobs board and chat with the person processing us on the other side of the counter and was told that there were two days shallot picking/digging somewhere beyond the outskirts of Christchurch. It happened that I had been told a few days earlier that I had managed to get an interview for a professional job on the morning of the first day of shallot picking. I said this to the woman behind the counter. She said, deadpan, ‘So, you’re refusing work?’.

        I tried to explain that I thought it was a good reason and it seemed crazy to insist I go for two days shallot picking and miss out on an interview for a very skilled job when there were plenty of others in the line who’d be keen to take the two days work. She wasn’t having any of it and seemed more intent on getting through the day in front of an endless line of unemployed people.

        ‘That’s one strike’ she said (or words to that effect). I left the office feeling like dirt and worried as hell at what they might do to me if something like that happened again. At that very moment I had written away and had in process over 40 applications for positions both in New Zealand and overseas. Part of me wanted to go back in, take the shallot picking and flag the interview – I didn’t want to risk losing what was a pretty meagre benefit because it was the only guaranteed income I had.

        I was gobsmacked but stuck to my guns and went to the job interview. About a week later I ended up hearing that I got the job. In the meantime, I’d taken another ‘job’ picking apples and took the job offer call in the apple orchard office.

        I’ve never forgotten that experience.

        Who knows, maybe the woman I spoke to was applying the rules incorrectly and just thought I was a lazy, con-artist or something who was spinning her a line. Part of me still wants to believe that it couldn’t possibly be what was intended – counted as ‘refusing work’ because you had to go to a job interview.

        But it happened, intended or not.

        • Arfamo 11.2.2.1
          18 June 2013 at 9:28 pm

          Maybe just that the form said – agreed to do work offered – Yes … No and had no other option.

          Government bureaucracies work like that, especially when they’ve just been gutted or restructured by bean counters and been told to find ways to work smarter to get through the same amount of work. Basic checklists soon abound on front desks to slash the time previously “wasted” applying rational thinking when the situation is even slightly more complex than the simple interactions the academically qualified policy designers or the contracted trainers envisaged.

  12. Arfamo 12
    18 June 2013 at 10:27 am

    FFS. No wonder people despair the msm. This is stuff.co’s headline front page photo item.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/beauty/8808621/Miss-Utahs-words-fail-her-and-everyone-else

    • Bill- I didn't go to the Sky Box 12.1
      18 June 2013 at 10:57 am

      This outwardly attractive person’s inability to form a coherent answer reminds me of David Shearer.

      What is the difference between David Shearer and Miss Utah?
      One is young, inexperienced and has plenty of time to develop skills.
      The other is old, experienced and is incapable of developing skills now.

    • karol 12.2
      18 June 2013 at 11:15 am

      Unfortunately Stuff often self-promotes using images of young attractive women in that photo slot – sometimes it has more serious news items there, and sometimes images of young celebrity males, but young women are most often seen in that slot.

      • Rosetinted 12.2.1
        18 June 2013 at 11:24 am

        karol
        Are pretty women used as tokens to be put into the paywall slot?

        Perhaps they will get a special rate for their citizen images of themselves, as is offered in some bars because of their magnetic abilities.

        • Rogue Trooper 12.2.1.1
          18 June 2013 at 12:20 pm

          “Pretty woman, I don’t believe you
          You’re not the truth
          No one could look as good as you
          Mercy”
          (Oh Noze, they air-brushed my face). 😎

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    18 June 2013 at 10:56 am

    Deprivation and Double the density around the Tamaki estuary.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10891194
    only one Tamaki resident on the board, chaired by a former property developer, Merchant Banker.

  15. xtasy 15
    18 June 2013 at 11:09 am

    Now it is all coming out bit by bit. There are new revelations by the week now, if not by the day.

    Edward Snowden, NSA intelligence staff member turned “whistle-blower”, in hiding in Hong Kong, has answered questions via the website of ‘The Guardian’:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower

    AP have come out with a story, revealing that apparently PRISM is just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to wide-scale internet and communications surveillance by US agencies:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-prism-success-even-bigger-data-seizure

    Have a read of this for “enlightenment”:

    “Deep in the oceans, hundreds of cables carry much of the world’s phone and Internet traffic. Since at least the early 1970s, the NSA has been tapping foreign cables. It doesn’t need permission. That’s its job.

    But Internet data doesn’t care about borders. Send an email from Pakistan to Afghanistan and it might pass through a mail server in the United States, the same computer that handles messages to and from Americans. The NSA is prohibited from spying on Americans or anyone inside the United States. That’s the FBI’s job and it requires a warrant.

    Despite that prohibition, shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, President George W. Bush secretly authorized the NSA to plug into the fiber optic cables that enter and leave the United States, knowing it would give the government unprecedented, warrantless access to Americans’ private conversations.”

    Also:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-surveillance-architecture-includes-collection-of-revealing-internet-phone-metadata/2013/06/15/e9bf004a-d511-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html

    So George Orwell’s 1984 ominous future visions have in some ways already materialised!

    Does anybody trust GCSB, the SIS and Key’s assurances that New Zealanders have nothing to fear?

  16. Rogue Trooper 16
    18 June 2013 at 11:19 am

    Queensland power prices rise 20%
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/17/australia-electricity-prices-queensland
    more free-market fu$k-ups.

    The ghost of Edward carpenter
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jun/17/millthorpe-derbyshire-edward-carpenter
    gay rights activist and socialist.

  18. Rogue Trooper 18
    18 June 2013 at 12:17 pm

    oooh Government books WILL NOT return to surplus in 2015; wait patiently till 2016 instead now.oooh.- RNZ
    she’ll be coming round the mountain, she’ll be coming round the mountain, she’ll be coming round the mountain when she bombs. (I knew an old lady who swallowed a fly). 😀

  19. Winston Smith 19
    18 June 2013 at 1:03 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8809801/Job-revealed-in-Rebstock-appeal

    Well, well, well wouldn’t it be interesting to know who person A is…

    • Arfamo 19.1
      18 June 2013 at 1:20 pm

      Yep. But no worries if I never find out. I’m more interested in knowing who GCSB spied on, and why.

      • Winston Smith 19.1.1
        18 June 2013 at 2:05 pm

        Yeah I kinda figured it’d be like that…

        • Arfamo 19.1.1.1
          18 June 2013 at 2:29 pm

          Would be kind of good for us all to know what exactly is being surrendered in the TPPA negotiations, too. You know, the 1-2% doing on-the-quiet-selling-your-sovereignty-deals with the other 1-2% in the US.

          Look forward to learning more about what the NSA’s been up to from Snowden as well. A lot of guts, that bloke. Seems to doubt people can trust Corporate-led – or maybe any – Governments with private information:
          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10891334

          He might be on to something there.

          • Winston Smith 19.1.1.1.1
            18 June 2013 at 2:31 pm

            yup pretend its not happening or point to something else thats the ticket

            • Arfamo 19.1.1.1.1.1
              18 June 2013 at 2:36 pm

              Well no, I’m still interested in finding out who the leaker was in MFAT, but just not that interested. People needed to see what a thick prick McCully is. Public servants have endured years of bashing from the arsoles they have to work for. Its inevitable some will defend themselves and retaliate by whatever means available.

              • Anne …
                18 June 2013 at 5:25 pm

                Public servants have endured years of bashing from the arsoles they have to work for. Its inevitable some will defend themselves and retaliate by whatever means available.

                Can attest to that. I worked for a government agency that tried to rip off another government agency in the late 1980s and early 1990s. I had to put up with bullying and intimidation because they knew I had a few senior political contacts at that time and they were afraid I might spill the beans. In the end I did exactly that, and they had no-one but themselves to blame. A contract they were dead keen on getting signed ended up being scrapped. It served them right. Not surprisingly, that management didn’t last much longer…

                But the details of the case were swiftly covered up and never the light of day.

                • Arfamo …
                  18 June 2013 at 5:37 pm

                  Yep. Similar experience. Legal Services assisted in the cover up so we were stuffed trying to do anything about it.

                • Tim …
                  18 June 2013 at 10:27 pm

                  Aye! Not to mention covering up financial mismanagement, lying, leaking cabinet papers, troughing, and generally thinking that quaint old code of conduct doesn’t apply to them.
                  Thankfully (as you suggest Anne), some of them eventually come a cropper

  20. Penny Bright 20
    18 June 2013 at 2:15 pm

    FYI

    (Information you won’t find on the ‘Truth’ or the ‘Daily Blog’ 🙂

    “How to get ACTION taken to help stop this Auckland DAFT Unitary Plan!”

    BACKGROUND:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10891017

    NZ Herald Monday 17 June 2013 Bernard Orsman

    “The Auckland Council is talking up another one million residents in the city by 2041, but it is taking a prudent line when it comes to providing transport, water and other services.

    The council has adopted a Statistics New Zealand’s high-growth scenario of a million more residents by 2041, but its water body is using a medium-growth scenario of 700,000 more residents.

    The mismatch has raised questions, but council chief planning officer Dr Roger Blakeley says it is prudent to provide for the highest likely population growth and to be cautious to avoid over-investment.
    ………………..
    Councillor Cameron Brewer has called for an independent review of the most likely population growth, saying the council’s projections are out of kilter with the Government’s national infrastructure unit’s mid-range projections. …..”
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    STATEMENT BY 2013 AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE PENNY BRIGHT:

    Did YOU know that the following Petition 2011/64 has already been presented to the House?

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Presented/Petitions/5/0/5/50DBHOH_PET3157_1-Petition-of-Penelope-Mary-Bright-requesting-that.htm

    Petition of Penelope Mary Bright

    Requesting that Parliament declines to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics’ “high”population growth projections, instead of their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans.

    Petition number: 2011/64
    Presented by: Holly Walker
    Date presented: 30 May 2013
    Referred to: Social Services Committee
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    – with the following ‘Supplementary Evidence’ ?

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Housing-Accord-and-Special-Housing-Areas-Bil-Supplementary-Evidence-13-Juna-2013.pdf

    This is an ‘Item of Business’ before the Social Services Select Committee.

    The next meeting of the Social Services Select Committee, is scheduled for Wednesday 26 June 2013.

    If YOU support this Petition, you can send an email / letter to this Select Committee, in the following way, using this as a guide:

    (EMAIL TO THE CLERK OF THE SOCIAL SERVICES SELECT COMMITTEE : tracey.rayner@parliament.govt.nz

    MAIL TO THE CLERK OF THE SOCIAL SERVICES SELECT COMMITTEE : Tracey Rayner

    Private Bag 18041, Parliament Buildings, Wellington 6061 (No stamp required).
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    To Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, Chair of the Social Services Select Committee.

    RE: Petition 2011/64

    Requesting that Parliament declines to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics’ “high” population growth projections, instead of their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans.

    I, the undersigned, request that you and ALL members of the Social Services Select Committee please support the investigation requested by this petition.

    I am particularly concerned, that the LAW which covers the Auckland (Spatial) Plan, which the Auckland Draft Unitary Plan is supposed to help implement, appears to have not been followed:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2009/0032/latest/DLM3338660.html

    79 Spatial plan for Auckland

    (1)The Auckland Council must prepare and adopt a spatial plan for Auckland.

    (4)The spatial plan must—

    (c) provide an evidential base to support decision making for Auckland, including evidence of
    trends,opportunities, and constraints within Auckland;
    ____________________________________________________________________________

    The recommendation from the Department of Statistics, in their ‘customised’ advice to Auckland Council on 28 March 2011 – stated:

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/AUCKLAND-GROWTH-PROJECTIONS-FOR-SPATIAL-PL-AN-DEPT-OF-STATISTICS-SNZ-letter-2.pdf

    “Population Projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan

    Development of the Auckland Spatial Plan requires that an evidential base is provided to support decision making for Auckland. Furthermore, it requires the identification of the existing and future location of residential activities within specific geographic areas within Auckland.

    Population estimates and projections clearly form a good source of information for these purposes.

    Statistics New Zealand were asked to produce customised population projections for a new growth model for Auckland. Under the medium series, this resulted in a projected population of 2,160,700 for 2041

    (the low series projected 1,832,100 people and the high series projected 2,467,500 people).

    Statistics New Zealand has been asked by the Auckland Council

    “is a projected population for the Auckland region of approximately 2.1 million people a reasonable basis for planning?” While there is no certainty that the births, deaths and migration assumptions in the population projection will be realised, Statistics New Zealand agrees that a projected population of approximately 2.1 million at 2041 is a reasonable basis for planning at this point in time. We would reiterate that it is important to consider the range of projections, including the low and high scenarios. ..”

    Why was this arguably ‘expert’ advice from the Department of Statistics apparently then ignored?

    I look forward to your exercising ‘due diligence’ as a Members of Parliament for New Zealand, the ‘Highest Court in the Land’, and doing your part to ensure that ‘justice is done and been seen to be done’, and the ‘Rule of Law’ prevails.

    NAME ADDRESS SIGNED
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    A copy of this ‘sample’ letter can be found here:

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?p=171

    If YOU want to sign something which ‘has teeth’ and can help make a difference to stop this Auckland ‘democracy for developers’ / ‘market madness’ – this, in my considered opinion – is IT.

    Yours sincerely,
    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    • xtasy 20.1
      18 June 2013 at 3:32 pm

      Penny,

      Isn’t the agenda to get those up to a million extra “Aucklanders” into the city first, to get them sweating – while working hard, and to have them earn some money in a future, more “sweat-shop” like NZ economy, and pay taxes from that, and with that pay for the additional infrastructure?

      That is what it seems to me.

      It has been the agenda for decades, well probably from the day the first settlers came here, to bring in more, to create growth in a “primitive” way, by simply “growing the market” and labour pool by immigration, to justify all the great nice new projects the “leaders” of cities and central government like to talk about.

      Once those additional people are here, oh my, ah well, we never expected that, we need yet more, to pay for the additional costs that “unexpectedly” arose in the meantime.

  21. bad12 21
    18 June 2013 at 2:18 pm

    The ‘Hairdo’ makes a stand for His rehabilitation announcing today that He will not support the private members bill that would allow ‘scab labour’ to be used by employers to break strikes…

  22. Rogue Trooper 22
    18 June 2013 at 2:41 pm

    “And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon
    Little boy blue and the man on the moon…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tZmN7eHYFU
    “But there were planes to catch and bills to pay.”

  24. Rogue Trooper 24
    18 June 2013 at 3:43 pm

    now, here is a ‘parent’ that could do with ‘the bash’
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10891298
    …john patiently waits…

  25. Rogue Trooper 25
    18 June 2013 at 3:55 pm

    What a great roundup
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10891362
    Race, Religion and politics.
    Hats off to Bryce Edwards.(and Roy Harper).

  26. Penny Bright 26
    18 June 2013 at 5:12 pm

    FYI

    My ‘Open Letter /OIA request to Professor Sir Peter Gluckman :”Upon what ‘science’ are you relying to support fluoride in water?” should get a reply before 5pm, Wednesday 10 July 2013.
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Dear Penny

    Thank you for your request under the Official Information Act 1982 dated 12 June 2013, which has been forwarded to me.

    We will respond to your query as soon as is reasonably practicable within the 20 working days allowed,

    (before 5pm 10 July 2013).

    Yours sincerely

    ……………………………….
    Communications Officer
    Office of the Prime Minister’s Science Advisory Committee
    PO Box 108-117, Symonds Street
    Auckland 1150, New Zealand
    _______________________________________________________

    12 June 2013

    ‘Open Letter’ / OIA to Professor Sir Peter Gluckman from Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright:

    “Upon what ‘science’ are you relying to support fluoride in water?”

    OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER’S SCIENCE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

    Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, KNZM FRSNZ FMedSci FRS
    Chief Science Advisor

    Dear Professor,

    I read with interest your following ‘Media Release’:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1306/S00035/sir-peter-gluckman-statement-of-flouride.htm

    “Media release
    12 June 2013

    “The science of fluoride in water is effectively settled. It has been one of the most thoroughly worked questions in public health science over many decades,” says Sir Peter Gluckman, the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Advisor.

    In a statement released today on the issue of fluoride in public water supplies, Sir Peter reiterates the scientific facts, saying “it is absolutely clear that at doses used in New Zealand to adjust the natural level to one that is consistent with beneficial effects (0.7-1.0mg/litre), there is no health risk from fluoride in the water.”

    So why is there any issue at all?

    Sir Peter points to the importance of the values debate around fluoridation, but warns that this should not be misrepresented as a scientific debate. …”

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Can you please provide the information which confirms you have read the following research:

    1) http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2013/439490/

    “..chronic effects of fluoride involve alterations in the chemical activity of calcium by the fluoride ion. Natural calcium fluoride with low solubility and toxicity from ingestion is distinct from fully soluble toxic industrial fluorides …”

    “Industrial fluoride ingested from treated water enters saliva at levels too low to affect dental caries. Blood levels during lifelong consumption can harm heart, bone, brain, and even developing teeth enamel.
    The widespread policy known as water fluoridation is discussed in light of these findings. ….”

    2) http://www.slweb.org/50reasons.html

    50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
    Dr. Paul Connett
    Professor of Chemistry
    St. Lawrence University, NY 13617

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    FYI – I have spent some hundreds of hours researching the decisions of the Ministry of Health and Watercare Services to use Waikato river water as a ‘raw’ source of drinking water supplies for the Auckland region.

    I respectfully suggest that you read the following document which I prepared for a meeting of the Auckland City Council Finance and Business Committee back in October 2002, so that you can understand why a number of persons, such as myself, do NOT trust either the Ministry of Health, or Watercare Services Ltd, when it comes to safeguarding public health and drinking water supplies.

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Waikato-Amended-ACC-Presentation-18-10-02.pdf

    FYI – as a 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate, I do NOT support the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies.

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner.

    …………………………………………………..

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152

    • UglyTruth 26.1
      18 June 2013 at 8:39 pm

      James Corbett on Margaret Sanger’s Planned Parenthood & Eugenics.

      Dr. W.L. Hutton was the head medical officer of health in the first Canadian city to fluoridate their water supply. Dr. W.L. Hutton was the president of the eugenics society of Canada from 1930 – 1938 [he became Brantford’s head medical officer in 1937].

      “Using the fluoride in the water supplies in their gulags (concentration camps), to make the prisoners stupid, docile, and subservient.”
      Ref : The Crime and Punishment of I. G. Farben by Joseph Borkin

      http://canadianawareness.org/2012/03/water-fluoridation-directly-linked-to-eugenics/

      “At the end of the Second World War, the United States Government sent Charles Eliot Perkins, a research worker in chemistry, biochemistry, physiology and pathology, to take charge of the vast Farben chemical plants in Germany. While there he was told of a scheme which had been worked out by them during the war and adopted by the German General Staff. This was to control the population in any given area through mass medication of drinking water. In this scheme sodium fluoride occupied a prominent place. Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual’s power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotisizing a certain area of the brain and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him. Both the Germans and the Russians added sodium fluoride to the drinking water of prisoners-of-war to make them stupid and docile.” (Reference: Victorian Hansard of 12th August 1987).

      http://fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/870000_perkins.htm

      • Daveosaurus 26.1.1
        18 June 2013 at 8:47 pm

        Are you sure your tin-foil headgear is wound tightly enough?

        • UglyTruth 26.1.1.1
          18 June 2013 at 9:04 pm

          … as the fluoridation campaign gained steam, the Public Health Service was headed by another top Alcoa official, Oscar R. Ewing, who in turn was aided by Edward L. Bernays, the father of modern public relations and author of the book “Propaganda,” who sought to portray fluoride’s opponents as wackos.

          http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Mellon_family

          • McFlock 26.1.1.1.1
            18 June 2013 at 9:58 pm

            obviously didn’t have to try to hard, though

            • Colonial Viper 26.1.1.1.1.1
              18 June 2013 at 10:14 pm

              West Germany ditched mass water fluoridation after a brief trial in the 1950’s. Probably the idiot Americans pushing them to try it.

              After West Germany unified with East Germany, they ordered the East Germans to ditch water fluoridation too.

              Did that prove to be the predictable dental disaster for East German children??? Nope.

              Oh and just for the pedantic amongst us McFlock

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11014515

              In contrast to the anticipated increase in dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation in the cities Chemnitz (formerly Karl-Marx-Stadt) and Plauen, a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This trend corresponded to the national caries decline and appeared to be a new population-wide phenomenon.

              • Arfamo …
                18 June 2013 at 10:27 pm

                Very interesting abstract. Thanks.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  18 June 2013 at 10:52 pm

                  You’re welcome. How about this one:

                  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Mendoza-Schulz%20A%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=19619626

                  Our results show that biologically relevant concentrations of fluoride are capable of increasing cell migration in tumour cells, suggesting that exposure to fluoride could stimulate tumour invasion.

                  Note that the investigators noted altered cell migration behaviour at a level of just 2.4 micromol/L of human serum fluoride concentration.

                  This was a level several times less than what the investigators considered typical for persons “chronically exposed” to fluoridated water.

                  • McFlock …
                    18 June 2013 at 11:08 pm

                    and how did they define “chronic exposure” in relation to, say, the <0.7-0.8ppm levels used in artificial fluoridation in NZ?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:32 pm

                      Dunno…but they regard (0.23 and 1.2 micromol/L) as below normal human serum concentrations.

                      And just 2 micromol/L above that, evidence was found suggesting increased migration activity in malignant brain cell behaviour.

                      Come on Mr Scientist, open your eyes and consider a few facts from outside your doctrinal orthodoxy

                    • McFlock …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:42 pm

                      ffs.

                      Every single chemical on the planet is dangerous at some level, from hydrogen to uranium. The entire point is that there is a dose-response relationship for good effects as well as bad. Were they talking about NZ fluoride levels creating actual harm? Experimental science dovetails with epidemiological evidence – just show the relevance of the article you provided to the discussion of fluoridation in NZ.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:57 pm

                      hey mate keep sucking it up

                      I’m sure your serum F is ok

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:12 am

                      eeep! I am suddenly scared for no reason, and will therefore completely reverse my position!

                      Oh, wait, that’s not how science works. Phew, you almost had me there for a moment.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:15 am

                      You’re a follower of the doctrine mate, science is merely your scripture. And you don’t like looking at the verses which don’t suit you.

                      Wait a sec I have to go brush my teeth with Colgate Total now, got that yucky furry feeling from enamel destroying plaque

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:19 am

                      science is merely your scripture

                      Science is a methodology. Scripture is unquestioned assertion. Basically, you’re now in the realm of creationists who say “the Theory of Evolution is just a theory”.

                      Edit: And I read your links more carefully than you did.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:29 am

                      Nice how like any fundamentalist you like to judge and denigrate other peoples belief systems by your own specific orthodoxy’s unassailable criteria for truth and validity.

                      Yes you did read the links more carefully, good you have full access to those papers thanks for the extra info

                      EDIT

                      Science is a methodology.

                      It is far more than that, and sometimes it is not that at all.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:41 am

                      Damned dirty trick I played, asking you to show how your randomly-selected article (butbutbut it contained the word “fluoride”) was at all relevant to the fluoridation levels used in NZ. /sarc

                      It’s actually really easy to understand: if fluoridation had negative effects at NZ levels, your tinfoil support sites would point to the studies that show it. Not some dime-doctor who says that’s what the studies say, they would link to the actual studies that show detectable harm from the 0.7-0.8ppm levels. We have seen detectable benefits linked to before in this debate, and the study you presented to say that maybe those benefits no longer apply was indeterminate and difficult to translate directly to NZ conditions (the entire “Berlin Wall and lifestyles” thing).

                      You want to call it mass-medication? Okay, then let’s go to “first, do no harm”. Where’s the harm?

                      EDIT

                      Science is a methodology.

                      It is far more than that, and sometimes it is not that at all.

                      well, that looked profound while saying fuck all.
                      I mean, you have the balls to accuse me of judging by unassailable criteria, but at least I don’t come up with pseudo-profundities like that.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:51 am

                      You want to call it mass-medication? Okay, then let’s go to “first, do no harm”. Where’s the harm?

                      Where’s the harm? Nah fuck that mate. Instead, for starters, let’s go with consent to treat.

                      You don’t have it. The harm is in you taking away my ability to consent to take a medication or not take a medication. And I do not consent.

                      Where’s your medical bioethics now, hotshot? You gonna say that you know best and the patient should just follow doctors orders?

                      Except, Christchurch has just decided to turn down fluoridation yet again, and roughly half of NZers do not receive fluoridated water supply, Taranaki and Hamilton ditched it pretty recently, so whatever.

                      I mean, you have the balls to accuse me of judging by unassailable criteria, but at least I don’t come up with pseudo-profundities like that.

                      Oh look thee to thy scriptures for revelations

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:55 am

                      It’s called a “water filter”. And has a friend called “find an alternative source”.
                      Nobody forces you to drink tap water.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:59 am

                      yeah, that’s what I already figured about the ethics of your compulsory mass medication programme.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 1:25 am

                      yeah, that’s what I already figured about the ethics of your compulsory mass medication programme.

                      awwww, you thought you’d learned how to support a scientific argument with actual evidence and now you’re just flailing about back in the familiar territory of making bioethical mountains out of trace-element molehills with a few semi-godwins thrown in.

                      Much as you like to call science a religious doctrine, the fact is that without at least a little bit of science you’d be singing the praises of “invisible good-teeth water magic”.

                      Anyway, I’m off to bed now. Remember to check under the bed for boogeymen and NSA bugs before you go sleepytime. And try to figure out the difference between “as low as” and “greatly increased from”.

              • McFlock …
                18 June 2013 at 10:49 pm

                oh that’s sweet, CV’s learning how to provide evidence.

                If you’d looked beyond the abstract and read the article, you’d have read the confounding factors in East Germmany at the time:

                O A greater utilisation of dental services. A large
                number of subjects visited the dentist once per
                year (90.7%) or at least once per half-year (50%);
                a high FT-component (90%); a high proportion
                of children with orthodontic treatment (47.9%);
                387
                O The adoption of a preventive approach by dental
                practitioners. Fissure sealants were placed in
                40.3% of subjects with 3.6 molars/person, combined
                with F-topical and oral health instruction/
                motivation;
                O An increased use of F-toothpastes from 10–15%
                (up to 1990) to 88% in 1993. Toothpaste consumption
                in 1993–95: 4 to 5 tubes containing 75
                mL/pCY½270–330 g/subject;
                O Fluoridated salt became available after 1992;
                market share in 1993–1995 ,15%;
                O Ninety percent of all children receive vitamin D3
                combined with NaF (0.25 mg F/die)½222 Mio
                DDD (½Defined Daily Dose) for rickets prevention
                during their first year of life;
                O There was no longer any positive correlation between
                annual sugar consumption and the caries
                levels. The sugar consumption of 1993 was as
                low as 1980–89 (35.1 to 40 kg/per capita/year)
                and the availability of products with sugar substitutes
                was increased (1993: 7795 tons);
                O The pattern of food consumption changed due
                to the introduction of Fast Food chains and possibly
                increases in the presence of food preservatives
                should also be considered;
                O The provision of antibiotics for medical treatment
                (463 Mio DDD) was twice as high as in
                1985. Annual consumption of antibiotics in Germany
                1995½2.160.601 dt½0.027 kg/per capita/
                year.

                And you might have even bothered to read the last line of the article, after the general discussion of the results and other studies (some with similar results):

                From our point of view, water fluoridation would still seem to be reasonable in all heavily-populated industrial areas with high or increasing caries prevalence.

                Didja see the bit about feeding babies sodium fluoride in their first year of life? And the massive increases in antibiotic use? Of course you did, because you didn’t just rely on the abstract, did you…

                • Colonial Viper …
                  18 June 2013 at 10:56 pm

                  Wow, that’s really impressive. Thank you.

                  The German government massively resourced their people to improve dental care, made sure fluoridated toothpastes and salt were available, but as part of the dental health programme saw it fit to REMOVE mass water fluoridation.

                  Cheers mate.

                  you’d have read the confounding factors in East Germmany

                  Yeah I think you’re the one “confounded”.

                  EDIT you might want to explain to me how Vit D for rickets and antibiotics for all reasons plus greatly increased fast food and sugar intake is supposed to help with the incidence of dental caries across the entire population?

                  Further, greater use of dental care and surveillance should mean an increase in caries found, not a decrease.

                  btw I am for the availability of fluoridated salt, milk and topical toothpastes in retail stores.

                  From our point of view, water fluoridation would still seem to be reasonable in all heavily-populated industrial areas with high or increasing caries prevalence.

                  Hey I could agree with that mate. But the researchers conclude fluoridation is NOT REASONABLE for areas with lower or decreasing caries prevalence.

                  • McFlock …
                    18 June 2013 at 11:16 pm

                    oh, but you’re the scientific researcher, even if you might not know what a confounding factor is. You’d know all about things like oral antibiotics interacting with oral bacteria (maybe even the ones that cause tooth decay).

                    plus greatly increased […] sugar intake

                    awwww, you mixed up “The sugar consumption of 1993 was as
                    low as                     1980–89″ with “The sugar consumption of 1993 was greatly increased from 1980–89″. You gotta start reading what’s written, rather than what you agree with.

                    Further, greater use of dental care and surveillance should mean an increase in caries found, not a decrease.

                    Because all a dentist does is put fillings in and count caries, nothing else at all /sarc

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:28 pm

                      Oh McFlock, look how much effort the new German government put into improving dental care yet they yanked water fluoridation preferring to use fluoridated toothpaste and salt instead.

                      This is a policy that they continue to this day, 20 years on.

                      And once again thank you for the researchers’ conclusion from the paper:

                      From our point of view, water fluoridation would still seem to be reasonable in all heavily-populated industrial areas with high or increasing caries prevalence.

                      But, as I said before, the researchers conclude fluoridation is NOT REASONABLE for areas with lower or decreasing caries prevalence.

                    • McFlock …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:37 pm

                      Basic logic, boyo:

                      “reasonable for areas with high or increasing caries prevalence”
                      does not equal
                      “NOT REASONABLE for areas with lower or decreasing caries prevalence”,
                      but it does equal
                      “NO COMMENT ON areas with lower AND decreasing caries prevalence”.

                      As for “the germans did it so we can” argument, well – that’s pretty stupid.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      18 June 2013 at 11:58 pm

                      Do you hear that sound McFlock? It’s the sound of scientific schism.

                    • weka …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:04 am

                      “But, as I said before, the researchers conclude fluoridation is NOT REASONABLE for areas with lower or decreasing caries prevalence.”

                      Do we know why? Could it be financial? How much does it cost to fluoridate water (including monitoring)?

                    • McFlock …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:10 am

                      Do you hear that sound McFlock? It’s the sound of scientific schism.

                      lol
                      keep using big words you don’t understand. It’s funny.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:11 am

                      not sure but the article wasn’t an economics cost/benefit analysis, it focussed on factors affecting dental effectiveness.

                  • weka …
                    18 June 2013 at 11:35 pm

                    “EDIT you might want to explain to me how Vit D for rickets and antibiotics for all reasons plus greatly increased fast food and sugar intake is supposed to help with the incidence of dental caries across the entire population?”

                    Vitamin D affects calcium metabolism (amongst many other things), and is necessary for bone health (and probably dental health). I would expect that increases in antibiotic use would have a negative effect on dental health due to poorer absorption of nutrients.

                    Anyways, the list of confounding factors just points to we probably have no idea what is really going on (which was the point at the end of the abstract, for those of us not lucky enough to access to the full article).

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:03 am

                      If this F stuff was simply added to some brands of toothpaste and salt and milk, and I could choose to have it or not, fine. Put it out there.

                      But since people insist that you need to mass medicate everyone with it in all areas of the country all the time in all their food and drink, I think that a far higher standard is needed. (By the way, I’m about to go brush my teeth with a tube of Colgate Total, so I’m not a fundamentalist about this stuff)

                      And what I do know is that Germany yanked water fluoridation after unification, despite taking great pains to ensure that dental care in East Germany was improved, and has kept it that way for the last 20+ years.

                    • weka …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:14 am

                      If you think that ingestion of fluoride might be a problem, why do you use fluoridated toothpaste?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 June 2013 at 12:27 am

                      Well I get enough F from toothpaste (and there the action is mostly topical anyways); I don’t also compulsarily need it in all the food that I buy, all the meals I make and all the drink I consume.

  27. Rogue Trooper 27
    18 June 2013 at 5:53 pm

    one can empathise, regrettably, with the position of the NRA sometimes; the only thing these Authoritarian pricks seem to understand is the barrel of gun.Seen any good movies lately? like Death Race?.

    • Arfamo 27.1
      18 June 2013 at 5:58 pm

      Nope, haven’t seen Death Race. America has arrived at the robocop corporate government & policing style though. I see no prospect of Americans giving up their guns. They really should be concerned. I read somewhere recently there are 14 separate state security organisations there now, not including the countless military and security contractors. Eisenhower would be incredulous.

  28. Paul 28
    18 June 2013 at 7:48 pm

    ACC story on Campbell Live no link up yet

    • xtasy 28.1
      19 June 2013 at 12:08 am

      Yes, Paul –

      Campbell Live is kicking off investigations into ACC’s off-loading of complex claimants – to shift them onto welfare benefits.

      http://www.3news.co.nz/Is-ACC-cutting-off-people-too-early/tabid/367/articleID/301917/Default.aspx

      Yes, about time, that this gets raised again, and looked at closely again! It all kind of went under the radar again, after Minister Collins took over the files and promised to have her staff look into things, when the scandal broke and become public last year.

      John Campbell did invite other ACC claimants that had similar experiences to contact them. So more is likely to come.

      How bloody disgusting, them putting pressure on a man who lost one arm, to go and look for work, even in a car-yard. And also expecting a woman with serious back pain, due to serious damage, to work full-time, when she cannot and is not ready for that.

      Nothing has changed, really!

      I wish Campbell and his team would also open their eyes and ears and examine WINZ designated doctor recommendations, decisions by WINZ and their appallingly biased Principal Health Advisor Dr David Bratt, comparing benefit dependence to drug dependence.

  29. Descendant Of Sssmith 29
    18 June 2013 at 8:59 pm

    The UK might be concerned about tax havens (not really) but they are connected to many of them

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2013/06/201361613599895885.html

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