Rather disappointing that despite their rhetoric (and so close on the heels of the Children’s Commissioner advocating the indexing of benefits to the average net wage to help address poverty) Labour have declined to increase benefit rates.
The MoU is in tatters.
Labour is being responsible.
Meteria and the Greens will be fuming.
The left is starting to look like a dogs breakfast.
The Greens have just been given a left hook by Labour and about time to.
Failing to help address poverty, thus save the country money and improve living standards, education and health outcomes, is far from being ‘responsible’.
“The Greens have just been given a left hook by Labour…”
I have to disagree … both parties have laid out policies that will improve the plight for the poorest. The Greens’s policy will provide more than Labour’s policy. There is a sweet spot between the two which both parties can agree on.
The trick is to get them both elected and not have to rely on NZFirst.
Mickeysavage,
The real trick is to get polling traction for Labour, won’t happen whilst the MoU is around its neck.
IMO Labour will only get upwards traction if they dump on the Greens and Winnies party.
Labour should and probably does know that but it seems head office timidity and adverse risk leadership is a problem.
Time will tell, but I expect the sideways attacking of Labour will continue by Winnie and the Greens.
Keep it up bearded git the RWs will I hope never get to throw acid at the left, but they do want to dowse the flame of goodness and vitality rising on the let.
Labour has finally worked out that a simple message plays well to the public, their “Ditch the Tax Cuts; Education, Health, Housing and No to Poverty instead” message is coming through well.
Robert Guyton,
I said a left hook and meant a left hook.
They need to throw a few more to knock some reality into the Green “10%’s we rule the world mentality”.
The Greens may be sincere and of course they may dream, but they will turn this election into a nightmare for Labour with their antics.
Time will tell.
Have you read Chris Trotter’s column yet, Bill?
I’d like to hear your views on it.
You really believe The Greens think they rule the world?
Playing the game with zest doesn’t translate to delusions of omnipotence, in my view. Your people need to pull something out of the hat, Bill, as mine are doing with consummate ease. In any case, any party’s performance can only be sheeted to itself; stop bagging the other players and start adding something to your team’s chances. They, btw, chose to have an MOU with The Greens as did The Greens with them. Do you have no faith at all in your party’s management? I’m backing mine; I reckon they’re smart. If you can’t back them in their shared decision, perhaps politics is not for you?
Robert Guyton,
yes I have read Chris Trotters article, a worthy piece of writing.
But I am afraid that is all.
Look at reality;
Winnies bottom lines, referendums on Maori and number of Parliamentry seats, which will have both Labour and the Greens turning somersaults, They are both keeping quiet about Winnies bottom lines, perhaps stunned into silence?.
Winnie will not announce until after the election who he will coalition with and it will probably take months. He could well go with National, only he and now likely Shane Jones knows.
Labour’s polling is pulled back by their Green party MoU, IMHO.
For the sake of our country’s stability and future Labour needs to be the biggest stakeholder. They have form.
Meteria’s ranting of largess is not going well with taxpaying working people in a 2017 year of elections. Which is by far the largest number of people in NZ. (source MSM and blogs). Labour have already distanced themselves from this economic sorcery. ( I will be surprised if the polls lift up much for the Greens and because Labour has only short bursts of energy they will probably go down against the Greens ).
They Greens are about 10%-12$ in polling they only rule themselves, that’s all.
But they and you do not seem to understand that fact
Bill, I reckon that the comment “the only flash of colour I’ve seen from any party in this grey, grey campaign has been from The Greens” (Metiria’s “confession”) is on the button, so far as I’m concerned. It’ll take some vivid splashes to change the grinding inevitability of a beige result, so I’m 100% with Metiria, The Greens and any others willing to spill primary colours across the muddy goop that’s being offered.
“Labour gave a stern no to increasing benefit rates, thus gave no indication of making concessions for the Greens proposal.”
No, they didn’t. Little just said it’s not their policy. Which makes sense when you think that they already had their policy about to launch when the Greens made their announcement on Sunday. It’s not like Labour could have rewritten their policy in 2 days.
There was nothing stern about it. That’s you and your incessant negativity about Labour. Not for the first time I’m wondering if you are a long play subtle anti-left troll. Always undermining, never offering anything constructive.
True, but the trolling is of the more subtle kind. As opposed to say Red who just runs round with their anti-left position tattooed on their forehead. TC will of course deny they are anti-left.
It was only the other day I suggested Labour should run with and build upon the Children’s Commissioner’s proposal of indexing benefits to the average net wage to help address poverty.
I’ve also touted for Goverment to fill private sector voids and help correct market shortfalls, putting forward a number of proposals. Thus, I’m far from right wing.
“No, they didn’t. Little just said it’s not their policy.”
He gave a stern no stating it’s not what they are promising or what they are planning, thus gave no indication of making concessions for the Greens proposal.
“Which makes sense when you think that they already had their policy about to launch when the Greens made their announcement on Sunday. It’s not like Labour could have rewritten their policy in 2 days.”
With the MOU in place one would expect the Greens would have given Labour notice (and no doubt the opportunity to join along) of their intention to announce one of the most significant changes to our welfare system in a generation.
“That’s you and your incessant negativity about Labour. Not for the first time I’m wondering if you are a long play subtle anti-left troll. Always undermining, never offering anything constructive.”
Because you’re the one who doesn’t understand that “working with others” involves “compromises” which involves “doing something less or more than was promised or planned prior to the event that the promises or plans were contingent upon”.
because I’m sick of your incessant negativity and undermining of the left.
“With the MOU in place one would expect the Greens would have given Labour notice (and no doubt the opportunity to join along) of their intention to announce one of the most significant changes to our welfare system in a generation.”
See you can’t even be honest. *you expect that, but as others have explained ad nauseam that’s not what the MoU was designed to do.
“Because I’m sick of your incessant negativity and undermining of the left”
That may be the way you see it, however I see it differently.
Let me explain why.
In this instance, I support the Greens proposal to increase benefits.
Therefore, I believe if we on the left fail to make Labour aware of our disappointment, the less encouraged Labour will be to concede in negotiations on this policy with the Greens.
Being silent doesn’t bring about change.
“See you can’t even be honest”
Me? Have you forgotten the No Surprises policy in the MOU?
Pretty sure that if Labour are reading this post today, they’re scrolling past this particular conversation.
“Being silent doesn’t bring about change.”
I’ve never said you should be silent. I’ve said I’m sick of your incessant negativity. There are plenty of ways to speak to Labour’s policies and positions without actively undermining the left.
“Me? Have you forgotten the No Surprises policy in the MOU?”
Unlike you, I read the MoU as a whole. It doesn’t say that L/G have to work on policy together. It doesn’t say that the Green have to give Labour enough headsup on major policy so that Labour have enough time to consider if they want to change theirs. ‘No surprises’ means that Labour get informed before the policy announcement so they’re not surprised by it.
So yes, you are dishonest. You want Labour and the Greens to have a different MoU than they have.
“There are plenty of ways to speak to Labour’s policies and positions without actively undermining the left”.
I try to avoid undermining the left but as Labour and the Greens sometimes undermine themselves, it’s hard to talk about things openly without somewhat undermining them.
“Unlike you, I read the MoU as a whole. It doesn’t say that L/G have to work on policy together.”
I didn’t say that. However, it gives them scope too. Thus, with such a major announcement, it would be surprising if Labour weren’t invited to join in.
Nevertheless, the No Surprises policy specifically states prior notice is required to be given.
“You want Labour and the Greens to have a different MoU than they have.”
Once again, punctilious correctness combined with saintly sanctimony. Chairman, you are known by your deeds, which Weka has described perfectly. You are a concern troll who fakes his sincerity with earnest endeavour. But you do not convince.
It wasn’t a direct quote. Nevertheless, Little did oppose the Green’s plan to increase benefits, stating Labour had a different approach. But it doesn’t involve increasing the rate benefits are paid.
Which makes them another Labour Party that won’t restore benefit rates.
TC and BillM getting in early for some trolling. The increasingly frantic response to the Greens policy from the right suggests they are getting worried.
“Andrew said that they had a different way of addressing poverty”
Yes, but it’s a real shame Labour didn’t opt to build upon the Children’s Commissioner’s recent proposal and work along with the Greens.
Cash transfers are one of the most efficient ways to help address poverty. And as the structure is already in place, it could virtually be done overnight. Instantly improving peoples living standards.
How long will Labour’s approach take?
It will be interesting to see what approach voters prefer.
“they had a different way of addressing poverty”.
I certainly hope so. The Green way, as expounded by their female co-leader simply seems to be steal whatever you want.
Are people really happy that, were Labour to lead a Government, they would happily include in Cabinet a self confessed and apparently unrepentant fraudster?
John Key took a principled approach in 2008, before that year’s election. He said he would not go into Government with Winston Peters because he did not think he could trust him. Winston may have changed but Key was right then.
Why does Little not show some courage and state that fraudsters will not be allowed into any Cabinet positions in a Government he might lead?
Can he really be so desperate that he doesn’t care who he lies down with?
Metiria Turei’s admission was poorly timed and will no doubt have ramifications for her and the Party going forward.
It will put a number of voters off her and the Party. On the other hand, she has mustered some support for being so open.
It will make Labour further question the public perception of them working with her.
But it’s unlikely Labour will get into Government without the Greens. Therefore, unless she stands down, Labour will have little choice but to work with her if they want to be in Government.
I wonder how many Maori people felt affinity with Metiria following her disclosure? I’m guessing many and I’m also guessing that they’ll be inclined to vote for her and her party as a result.
Edit: particularly in response to the breathless umbrage being taken by the privileged sector of the community, as displayed here.
“I wonder how many Maori people felt affinity with Metiria following her disclosure? I’m guessing many and I’m also guessing that they’ll be inclined to vote for her and her party as a result.”
Do you think this will be enough to take the Maori vote off Labour?
The Greens recently said they would be seeking the progressive vote, do you think this will help them secure it?
Surely this will eat into Labour’s support.
And with Peters opposing neo-liberalism, no doubt he’s also going to eat into Labour’s vote. Seems Labour may be in trouble, who will they turn to for support? Move more to the centre?
The Greens eating into Labour’s support is meh, it only makes a difference at the individual MP level.
Winston eating into Labour’s support, on the other hand, is a gift to National. Labour needs to start making clear that a vote for NZ First is a vote for keeping National in power, because it is. After the election, NZF will be on sale to the highest bidder, and National will be the highest bidder just like it was in 1996.
“The Greens eating into Labour’s support is meh, it only makes a difference at the individual MP level”
It will strengthen the Greens when it comes to party negotiations.
Moreover, with Labour polling so low, it will add to the possibility Labour’s vote will fall so low Little won’t get in.
“Winston eating into Labour’s support, on the other hand, is a gift to National. Labour needs to start making clear that a vote for NZ First is a vote for keeping National in power…”
The problem Labour will have with that strategy is the voters most concerned with Winston opting to go with National are most likely to also be the ones more likely to be enticed by Peters anti neo-liberal stance, thus disappointed with Labour’s Budget Responsibility Rules.
NZF have a number of left leaning policy, thus Labour have a good opportunity to offer them a better deal than National. However, Little publicly calling Winston a blowhard isn’t constructive. Nor was giving the Greens the nod to call him a racist.
NZF have a number of left leaning policy, thus Labour have a good opportunity to offer them a better deal than National.
If they were negotiating with New Zealand First, that might count for something. However, they’ll actually be negotiating with Winston Peters, a conservative authoritarian with little taste for left-leaning policies and a great interest in “baubles of office.” So their opportunities to offer a Winston-friendly deal will depend on how little integrity they have. National’s always going to win that game.
The problem Labour will have with that strategy is the voters most concerned with Winston opting to go with National are most likely to also be the ones more likely to be enticed by Peters anti neo-liberal stance, thus disappointed with Labour’s Budget Responsibility Rules.
If it came down to it, it would be better that these people decided not to vote than that they vote for National via a vote for NZF.
I suspect that a lot of people felt affinity with Metiria after her disclosure. A hell of a lot of people know just how bad it can get on welfare in this country.
I really hope you don’t mean this in the way it comes across.
Do you really think that Maori, in general, have an affinity with those who deliberately break the law and then boast about it afterward?
I suppose you also think that everyone with any Maori heritage is a member of a gang?
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is just a careless wording problem.
Do you really think that Maori, in general, have an affinity with those who deliberately break the law and then boast about it afterward?
1. A large number will sympathise because they’ve spent time in the same position due to the rich fucking over society
2. Metiria wasn’t boasting – just stating facts.
I just wish he had said something like “a lot of beneficiaries” rather than “Maori”.
Using Maori tends to imply that ALL Maori feel that way.
Beneficiaries probably do feel that way if dealing with WINZ is anything like as bad as people say.
I had sympathy with Meteria when I first read this. Then I discovered that, although she has now got a very large income she has made no attempt to repay the money that she had defrauded.
There is an enormous difference between doing it when she couldn’t manage, or didn’t have the budgeting skills, to get by on what she had then and hanging on to it when you had become, by most peoples standards, very wealthy.
Using Maori tends to imply that ALL Maori feel that way.
Māori do over represent in the lower socio-economic sphere.
Beneficiaries probably do feel that way if dealing with WINZ is anything like as bad as people say.
It’s as bad as they say. The stress that comes from having to deal with them probably reduces peoples lives by years.
I had sympathy with Meteria when I first read this. Then I discovered that, although she has now got a very large income she has made no attempt to repay the money that she had defrauded.
I don’t see that it makes any difference as it was the policies of the government that put her into a position that she had to lie. If any one should be paying it it should be the National Party. They should also be paying out for all that stress that they’ve caused with their physiologically damaging policies.
National has systematically depressed us all with their sinking lid economy called Austerity a word they refuse to use but carry it out thinking we don’t know it.
That’s not fair. You have a sense of humour and are a gardener to boot. I shall be forced to be less judgemental than is my wont.
I now feel guilty for suggesting that you could be related to someone who appears to be anything but a good conservationist.
My impression is that your true guilt runs far deeper than that, Alwyn. Cleaving to the evil philosophy of capitalism and personal greed, with that hypocritical pretence of defending right against wrong whenever any new ideas question the system that favours the select (filthy) few…
Kind of you to say that, alwyn. I was quite appalled by the toothfish story, to be frank. The people of Nelson have not endeared themselves to me, one of their sons, by their behaviour at the fish shop.
It’s maybe preferable to a cabinet replete with smugglers, fraudsters, extortionists, blackmailers and thieves who never confess to anything no matter how blatant.
Are people really happy that, were Labour to lead a Government, they would happily include in Cabinet a self confessed and apparently unrepentant fraudster?
Well, you seem OK with having Bill English as Prime Minister, a position Turei may not even aspire to, so why would you think Labour voters would be different?
In any case, I prefer honesty. English hasn’t even confessed, just paid it back (some of it, at least) while pretending that what he did was within the rules. And Paula Bennett is being unusually careful in her choice of words to describe her own dealings with WINZ – give me people who’ll tell you the truth any day.
“give me people who’ll tell you the truth any day”.
Even if it takes 15 years to fess up?
I am inclined to accept the view that someone had leaked Turei’s history to Winston. She was simply trying the Donald Trump Jr approach of get it out yourself first. Didn’t really work for him. I don’t think it is going to work for Turei either.
I am personally of the view that 3 terms is enough for any Government. I happily voted for Helen Clark in 1999 and equally happily against her in 2008.
Unfortunately there is no alternative that exhibits any competence at all at the moment. To go with the shambles of a NZF/Labour and possibly Green coalition doesn’t really hold any appeal.
Labour should have stuck with Shearer. He displayed a bit of amateurishness but he had actually had experience of doing real work. The Labour leaders have got worse and worse since he was stabbed by Brutus Cunliffe and then an even less competent Little was imposed on the Caucus by the Union movement.
Perhaps after the election they will get Grant as leader. He does waffle a bit, and he is totally unsuitable as a Finance spokesman but he at least shows some signs of being a possible competent PM.
“I am inclined to accept the view that someone had leaked Turei’s history to Winston. ”
Then your inclinations are toward making tenuous links and accepting rumour without much application of thought, not especially sturdy blocks on which to build political opinion.
I think Maori will feel affinity with Metiria because she is Maori, exhibits a respect for Maoritanga and for the many Maori people who are poor and who feel they have been treated poorly by the Government.
At the very moment when climate change demands an unprecedented collective public response, neoliberal ideology stands in the way. Which is why, if we want to bring down emissions fast, we will need to overcome all of its free-market mantras: take railways and utilities and energy grids back into public control; regulate corporations to phase out fossil fuels; and raise taxes to pay for massive investment in climate-ready infrastructure and renewable energy — so that solar panels can go on everyone’s rooftop, not just on those who can afford it.
Neoliberalism has not merely ensured this agenda is politically unrealistic: it has also tried to make it culturally unthinkable. Its celebration of competitive self-interest and hyper-individualism, its stigmatization of compassion and solidarity, has frayed our collective bonds. It has spread, like an insidious anti-social toxin, what Margaret Thatcher preached: “there is no such thing as society.”
Marty Mars
thanks for that heads up – puts clear words to the confused mass of consciousness that circle round us like bacteria, infecting and alerting our immune systems to a Babylon of blandishment, bribes, ballyhoo and ultimately brutal effect.
Cheers marty,
I was involved in a ‘survival camp’s with some scouts on top of the tararua.
We were sorely tested, gale force wind driven rain, and the scouts in bivoaucs they had built.
At 3am we found ourselves, a mass choir of 14, singing bohemian rhapsody.
A highlight referred to by the youth years after the event.
It is revealing. The party sounds it’s full of disaffected Labour supporters keen to create a second Labour Party, but Winston Peters is classical National – a conservative authoritarian who favours government intervention in the economy for conservative authoritarian reasons (ie, he shares Muldoon’s view that the government can just order the economy to behave as the government would like).
The party members are deluding themselves. After the election, Winston will form a government with whichever party Winston wants to form a government with, and that party’s very unlikely to be a combination of the Labour and Green parties. All these remits the party have passed are irrelevant to that process.
The polling evidence (NZ Election Study … Colmar Brunton vote switching and so on) suggests former Labour supporters comprised the lion’s share of NZF’s 2011 & 2014 voter-base and that a majority of NZFers prefer a Labour-led Government.
Winnie’s already won over a segment of the more morally-conservative Left & might just continue making in-roads 2017
Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions, study says
A relatively small number of fossil fuel producers and their investors could hold the key to tackling climate change
Neoliberalism has conned us into fighting climate change as individuals
Stop obsessing with how personally green you live – and start collectively taking on corporate power
“METIRIA TUREI has rescued the 2017 General Election from the timidity and moral squalor into which it was fast descending. In a speech that brought tears to her listeners’ eyes and cheers to their throats, the Greens’ co-leader carried her party out of the shadows of moderation and into the bright sunlit uplands of radicalism that have always been its natural habitat. The Green Party’s AGM of 15-16 July 2017 will go down in history as the moment when it repudiated the “Insider’s” devilish bargains – and reclaimed its soul.”
Disagree all she has done is move the deck chairs amoung the left, and thrown more votes to peters, some here have a vain hope she has appealed to the missing million ie increasing the left pie As the last 9 years has shown this is very unlikely, labour need to grab national swing voters of which they are totally incapable of doing and are hamstrung in strategic no mans land appealing to no body but hard core loyalists
“Disagree” – really! That’s not like you, Red, you’re usually so accommodating of the views expressed here. You are also usually wrong, so I guess at least you are being consistent and you are quite wrong about this issue: I feel your thinking lacks flexibility, where Metiria’s represents the state. Loosen up a little, Red, un-clasp and relax your crabbed grip on your stale old ways. Plus, sweeten yourself up a drop before venturing out in public. You leave a sour taste.
Thanks for the feedback Robbo and greywhateva I am glad you are both taking notice and an avid consumer of my posts, if only a small bit sinks in my job is done
Game changer from Morgan and the Opportunities Party, free $200 a week for all 18 – 23 year olds. If I was in that age group I know who I would be voting for.
That goes alongside their other policy of $200 a week for families with a child under 3.
I get it that Morgan’s abrasive presentation and economic framing don’t appeal to many here. That’s fine I’m 100% supportive of them continuing to vote Lab/Grn as they wish. But at the moment it’s TOP that is making all the interesting and radical running.
I think its good policy and puts TOP in the box seat to capture the youth. $200 a week for kids leaving school, a lot of which aren’t that sure what they want to do career wise. Gives them 5 years of some security, explore what they want to do, relieves pressure off them at a critical stage. All round good for society.
And means testing elderly people as well as cutting parts of Super.
Is the youth UBI on top of welfare or instead of? Can’t see the detail on their website, and IME once you start scratching the surface of TOP policy, there are problems underneath.
elders – all those citizens over 65 years of age – $200 each per week. In addition elders who satisfy a means test will be able to top up to the current NZ Superannuation level by a further $7,500 pa. We will index the top-up to elders’ costs not to average incomes
In other words if Super is your only income at present, I read this as meaning you will continue to be ‘topped up’ to your current levels. No change, no-one worse off.
If you receive other income then this will likely abate your ‘top up’ down to the level of the UBI. Seems fair.
Note also the current policy also abates Super at a rate of 70% down to a minimum of about $100 pw. So on the face of it TOP’s policy is more generous.
The idea is to cut super from the richest who don’t need it, there has been no talk of cutting essential super.
I would also hope this initial UBI doesn’t replace the benefit, both are needed. But when Morgan was talking about a UBI across the board a couple of years ago the idea was to replace benefits with it.
If they’re so rich they don’t need it, they’d probably be paying it back on higher tax rates anyway (or have well-subsidised many others over their careers). They can always give it to charity if they feel guilty.
Automated tax returns are much simpler than signing up, declaring changed income, processing the changes, and auditing for discrepencies.
It’s a bit like in the early 2000’s when I was at a group meeting with the head of winz student services at the time – she outright said they had no idea whether universal student allowances would be cheaper to implement than the means-tested, application/updated circumstances regime we have.
It’s very attractive to say that things should be targeted, and that people who don’t need something shouldn’t automatically get it. But we should double-check to see if the nice idea is more trouble than it’s worth.
And that’s before we get into the “slippery-slope, who sets the abatement threshold” debate.
RL, I’m pretty sure that abatement provision is limited to the rare situation where a person eligible for Super has a partner that is not eligible, but the partner has other income (overseas pensions are usually cited as the likely source of this other income).
For instance, I have a brother who has a Swiss partner. They are contemplating retiring to NZ. He will be eligible for Super, but she will not until she clocks up another seven years of residence. But her Swiss pension payments will be high enough that the abatement provisions would apply to his Super payments.
If someone is eligible for Super and an overseas pension, the Super is reduced dollar for dollar by the overseas pension. So my folks’ Super is actually mostly paid by their Social Security payments from the US.
But most ordinary Kiwi recipients of Super, the Super is just the same as any other income and taxed at the same rate. No special high abatement rates.
“If you have a spouse or partner who doesn’t qualify for their own New Zealand Superannuation, you can choose to include them in your payments. If you do this, any other income either of you earn could affect how much you get.”
It isn’t all overseas pensions. It is only those that are provided by another Government.
The really silly part is that they make you apply for any overseas pension for which you “might” be eligible. This includes Australia if you ever worked there. You have to fill in about 46 pages of bumpf.
You then apply, get turned down because you fail the asset test limit and you simply continue here as if you had never worked there.
The really nasty part is that if you qualify for even the tiniest amount of Australian super you are required to tell them of any change in your circumstances. Say you inherit $1,000 from a great-uncle. You have to tell them so that they can reduce the amount they pay over to the New Zealand Government. Your shares rise by $200. Same thing.
If you think that dealing with WINZ is tough you have clearly never had anything to do with the Ozzie equivalent.
Never had to deal with the Aussie Government except as a tourist. I’d never want to go work there. It’s not bad as a place, but it’s full of Australians.
On the other hand, living in the US meant some truly awesome tax return paperwork. My worst was one year I had the federal returns including the forms for capital gains on selling a house and 2 lots of moving expenses, plus state returns for Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and California, plus another lot of paperwork to reconcile US stuff with Mexican stuff coz I was working in a factory in Mexico owned by a US company. It all added up to a stack thicker than the old-school Auckland phonebook.
In general the idea in the long run seems to be an Universal Income set at relatively low level that everyone accesses. Whether you are in work or not. Initially available to youth, families with children and the elderly. The goal in the long run is to make it genuinely Universal
For those not in work, or retired, the UBI would be ‘topped up’ to current levels. So in essence it would ‘replace’ the first $200 or so of a benefit, without eliminating them completely.
Seems a flexible and fair approach to me. And the unconditional security of the UBI is way more attractive than the current capricious and precarious benefit system.
“The idea is to cut super from the richest who don’t need it, there has been no talk of cutting essential super.”
There is a lot of space between richest and essential. I think you will find that like with other social welfare, means testing and abatement is problematic for many reasons. I don’t want elderly people subjected to that.
“I would also hope this initial UBI doesn’t replace the benefit, both are needed. But when Morgan was talking about a UBI across the board a couple of years ago the idea was to replace benefits with it.”
yes, that’s right. Morgan wants to scrap social welfare entirely and replace it with an low rate economic UBI and personal responsibility. He’s clueless about what welfare is and what role it plays in society and how his policies would make many vulnerable people worse off. He doesn’t like welfare and wants to get rid of it. Welfare is critical to society, a UBI can’t replace that. We need both.
Super ALREADY is abated from anyone with income over $5kpa at a rate of 70%. The idea that Super is currently not subject to ‘means testing’ or ‘abatement’ is just wrong.
And if you want to quibble the difference between ‘means testing’ and ‘abatement’ then be my guest.
Morgan wants to scrap social welfare entirely and replace it with an low rate economic UBI and personal responsibility
You were wrong about TOP policy making elderly people worse off, so now you shift the goal-posts.
Welfare is critical to society, a UBI can’t replace that.
Why not? In the short term it makes sense to have both; but in the long run if the UBI was proven successful it could easily replace targeted welfare.
TOP wants to tax the assets of elderly people. It wants them to hoop jump. It wants to reduce some of their income. I think there are better ways of managing all those things.
I’m not shifting the goal posts, mauī was talking about a UBI replacing benefits, I responded with the problems with that. I’ve always pointed to one of the major issues with Morgan’s UBI is that it fails to take into account that welfare is a crucial part of any caring society.
“Why not? In the short term it makes sense to have both; but in the long run if the UBI was proven successful it could easily replace targeted welfare.”
‘Targeted welfare’ isn’t the same as social welfare. Social welfare is the state’s fundamental position that people deserve to be looked after. Targeted welfare is the extreme bastardisation that comes about when neoliberals don’t have enough power to remove it completely.
As you well know, Morgan’s UBI fails to provide for the most vulnerable. He sets the UBI at a rate that’s not liveable, and he bases that on the idea that everyone can work. He seeks to remove income from people that can’t work. He’s reasonably honest about the removable of the safety net and that this needs to be replaced with personal responsibility. He has some vague ideas about how the non-working poor can manage and be supported but nothing that’s even close to credible policy. He also acknowledges that some people will do it tough. All of that is unacceptable and unnecessary. There are far better ways to design a UBI.
TOP wants to tax the assets of elderly people. It wants them to hoop jump. It wants to reduce some of their income.
Wrong. ALL assets would be taxed, not just the elderly. The only people who are significantly affected are ‘asset rich/cash poor’ who can postpone the liability and pay it from their estate. This really isn’t much different to an estate tax in some ways, and not too far removed from the same system which will recover rest home care costs.
Absolutely it does not reduce their income one cent. Wrong again.
Targeted welfare is the extreme bastardisation that comes about when neoliberals don’t have enough power to remove it completely.
Wrong again. ALL welfare that has some pre-requisite condition to qualify for it, like being unemployed or disabled is by definition ‘targeted’. And with that brings with it a host of toxic problems that you posted about just yesterday.
By contrast a UBI is ultimately intended to be unconditional. It has to be the ultimate, broadest expression of the idea that everyone deserves to be looked after.
Gareth Morgan and his paid for vanity party want to means test elderlies for super.
So your nana has a wee house, worth all about 35thousands on a plot of leased land, but hey she can sell the house and live of that before getting super. Cause she and the likes liker her will be the only ones suffering from the ‘its not fair i get super ‘ policies. Gareth Morgan, has enough houses and enough money to pay an accountant to make sure he will not have enough ‘income’ and receive super in full.
Super, like unemployment benefits and the dole are -prepaid- services. We are paying taxes to raise funds that can be distributed among those that have lost their jobs – unemployment, or that are too old for working – super annuition. These programs are not charity, they are not a hand out. Working people paid for these programs via their taxes. But then, Gareth does know nothing about paying taxes, Gareth knows about paying accountants to help him avoid taxes.
Nah you’ve lost me there. Right now the single most ‘bloated and ineffective managerial’ cockup in the country is WINZ. And Morgan proposes in the long run to close it down.
Nor can the idea of a UBI that has been around for at least 500 years, and is being explored in many countries, be scarcely described as a ‘vanity project’.
Do you think a UBI is just Gareth Morgan’s ‘vanity project’, ‘tax write off’; or does it have a respectable 500+ year history you just don’t want to know about?
Morgan is in zero position to make a UBI reality in NZ. That will be Labour and the Greens who both already want to do this. I will be working hard to make sure they use a model that is designed around wellbeing not economics. Easy with the Greens, more of a challenge with Labour.
There are other non-govt people working in UBI in NZ. You might want to ask yourself why Morgan is seen as the pioneer and they’re not.
A UBI is also fundamentally an economic tool. Designing one without reference to economics is like designing a sailboat without reference to the sea.
Of course Morgan doesn’t own the concept; but after decades of the idea being firmly stuck in obscurity, he’s given it the oxygen it desperately needed. At least in NZ.
Of course I’m happy to debate the merits of TOP policy detail; nothing is ever perfect on the first attempt … but misrepresenting it leads to ill-formed debate.
On the contrary I am listening very closely. You should know me better by now. 🙂
Consider this … you know I have never had a bad word for the Greens, that I have voted for them the past 4 elections at least and they carry a very fond spot in my heart.
My partner and I had the privilege of attending Rod Donald’s memorial service at Parliament and we both wept along with everyone else. It’s a vivid memory.
So when I say that I strongly identify with the spiritual and moral foundations of the Greens, with their community and people based vision … please I ask you to accept this at face value.
Now at the same time though I ask you to accept that I ALSO believe that we cannot minimise the economic dimension. That the gross inequality of wealth, the class warfare that grinds so many people into submission and despair, has it’s roots deeply embedded in bad economics. Now while Steve Keen is probably an economist closer to my tastes than Gareth Morgan, TOP is nonetheless presenting policy that goes a long way in a direction I like.
And emphatically there is no particular reason why these two visions should be mutually exclusive. While I fully accept the Greens and TOP frame their ideas and visions differently, I see far more potential common ground than conflict. I’d go one step further, the Greens may well have more underlying purpose and vision in common with TOP than they do with Labour.
Are you living under a rock? Seriously the whole managerial class in this country from the public sector to the private is a joke in this country. I’m guessing you don’t have to deal with many government departments or their managers. Nor have much experience with the private sector their Redlogix, please prove me wrong. I’m seeing you single out work and income (it ‘ant been winz since the disaster in beige with bangle earrings) shows a level of ignorance, or a desire to push a certain agenda.
systems that have been run down by neoliberalism and where too many managers no longer have the common sense to operate those systems in a socially competent way.
++++ !!!
The insane idea that somehow ‘managers’ didn’t need to actually know much about the core operations of the business they’re running will be the end of us. I’ve spent 40 years subverting the worst impacts of these desk-apes. Over it … totally.
Worked mostly in the private sector and some in the public over 40 years now. But my agenda around WINZ does indeed come from direct family experience …
But I do struggle to see how we can pin the blame for all this on Gareth Morgan.
I think you are making the common mistake of thinking that all economic activity is definition ‘capitalism’.
In any conceivable system I can think of money will remain a feature, and the using money to invest in future productivity will also remain an enduring feature. Thus all reasonable alternatives will have some aspect of capitalism.
Indeed you hit on an interesting metaphor; cancer is the normal and vital process of cell growth and replacement gone rogue. What you object to is not ‘capitalism’ per se, but the unregulated, out of control version of it we have come to know as ‘neo-liberalism’.
And I’d argue if you read TOP policy with an open mind you see Morgan harnessing normal economic mechanisms to regulate and moderate capitalism into a form that serves all people equitably, rather than the privileged few who’ve captured it for their own benefit.
In any conceivable system I can think of money will remain a feature, and the using money to invest in future productivity will also remain an enduring feature.
True.
Thus all reasonable alternatives will have some aspect of capitalism.
Not necessarily.
The defining part about capitalism is private ownership and that’s not needed to run a business. Make the business self-owned and run by the people who work there. Neither capitalism nor communism but still a market system.
And I’d argue if you read TOP policy with an open mind you see Morgan harnessing normal economic mechanisms to regulate and moderate capitalism into a form that serves all people equitably, rather than the privileged few who’ve captured it for their own benefit.
The problem with that idea is that it can’t actually work. We see, as per Piketty’s work, that ownership always results in a few people having control of the resources of a nation resulting in the inevitable collapse of that nation.
Capitalism doesn’t work and never has done. Time to try something new. Something that ensures that no one is in poverty, rewards people for their work and doesn’t reward people for owning stuff.
Not going to argue with you in principle … but hell it’s like herding cats to get people on board with a baby steps UBI much less the utter transformation you’re describing here.
Actually Redlogix I’m a Christian Anarchist who opposes capitalism in all it’s forms, and it’s why I used the words liberalism and capitalism. I’m no wet. And I think people who support capitalism in any form are the enemy.
So it’s not about an open mind. It’s about politics, or more specifically – political economy.
So capitalism is a cancer, which has held back humanity, and worse is actually making the biosphere we live in uninhabitable for future generations.
So yeah, nah. Like I said, top is another liberal party – shining a turd.
Oh good luck to you then. Which ‘Christian Anarchist’ party are you going to vote for again?
Because from where I’m sitting I really don’t see any party of significance who have a detailed policy position around dismantling the entire economic system and replacing it with something completely novel, untried and untested.
Because while I agree with you that unconstrained capitalism is a disaster; this does not automatically mean that any random alternative you can dream up will automatically turn out to be better.
So for you following the same thing that produces the same dire results, no matter how many angles people try, is perfectly logical?
Seriously how many times has capitalism got to be reformed until we try somthing new? Socialism works if it is not authoritarian, just the people with money use violence to make sure that it appears not to work. A good example is Venezuela, not the basket case the press would like you to believe. Rojava is doing well. So are some other socialist countries in South America.
As for the whole party thing, you might want to try some reading to help you with that fetish. You know, in the past the same fetish was what prince did you bend your head too, or support, if you were wealthy enough.
T Draco T B.
You say
“The defining part about capitalism is private ownership and that’s not needed to run a business. Make the business self-owned and run by the people who work there”.
What on earth do you mean by “self-owned”. The only possible interpretation is that it is owned by the people who work there. That is still private ownership.
The only alternative ownership is being owned by the state.
There is a legal fiction that a business is a person but it is still only a fiction. A business can’t go to jail. It can’t pay a fine. It can’t be punished. It can’t make decisions. Only the people who work there or the owners can do those things.
He’s clarified that a yearly property/estate tax would be paid at the end of someone’s life so elderly people aren’t having to re-mortgage homes and sell up when they are asset rich but cash poor.
He also says in his speeches he doesn’t want a cent of his and his wife’s $40,000+ a year in super because they don’t need it. That is slightly different to what you’re saying which is that he will screw the system to gain as much wealth out of it as possible.
The idea of an asset tax is an extremely important one to restore equity to our tax system. New Zealanders have for so long gotten away without much in the way of capital or estate taxes that we struggle to get our heads around this.
but there is not a word or thing or newspaper article or other that you could utter that would make this man palatable to me. I consider him the NZ answer to Trump.
Most elders that i know, are neither asset rich nor cash rich. They, own a property – some with small mortgages on them – and they manage on their super or still work at 70. the very small subset of filthy rich ‘elders’ would be voting for National.
But i agree with Gareth Morgan, he should not be receiving super, as he is not paying income taxes or any taxes as he so proudly keeps proclaiming. Or as he said to me, Wage slaves should be revolting.
i have followed him, had conversation with him on FB and i have come to the conclusion that he is a major fuckwit. An entitled, vain, prickish type of fuck wit.
and i have read his positions and i am old enough to know what happens to poor people when rich people come and say i have a solution that will make you money 🙂 Nothing will happen, cause Gareth Morgan can only be rich by screwing over people to give up their money, their assets and what ever else they have that might be worth a penny.
now, if he were to put his ‘untaxed’ income to where his fat mouth is, now we could be talking.
But he ain’t helping poor people, he ain’t providing shelter for homeless people, he ain’t writing cheques to have homes build, he is not supporting some trap/neuter groups that want to control the feral cats of NZ. Nah, he wants to means test you, so that he won’t be getting super . Chutzpah by any other word.
go vote for him. but me, i’ll vote for Labour/Greens. thanks.
And I was told The Standard had to clean up it’s act, cut out the abuse and personal attacks so that more women would feel comfortable commenting here.
Yes … a realistic appraisal is that TOP won’t get over 5%. But neither is it impossible.
I’m a dreamer, but one that realism has pounded more than a few dents into. But recent political events have proved the pundits don’t have a monopoly on foresight.
Well if you want some facts, Gareth Morgan’s wealth arose when TradeMe was sold to Fairfax. Feel free to explain how that was a ‘screwing over people to give up their money’.
Gareth Morgan and i we both speak as we think. I don’t like Gareth Morgan because he is an epic fuckwit, with no social conscience.
He wants to ride on our roads, but he does not want to pay to pave them. That is why i don’t like him ,and i have told him as such. Biker to biker you know. I consider Gareth Morgan and the likes like him parasites on society. They use up resources and they pay not for upkeep or maintenance and in order to extract another penny or two they would kill the host if need be.
Gareth and Jo have already visited Timor-Leste and have seen the difference community pre-schools are making. They were so impressed by what they saw, that they’ve pledged to match each donation to the project. By supporting this project, you’re helping to provide children in remote villages with learning supplies and a space to learn in. It means they don’t have to go to work from a young age, and that they’ve got a chance to start learning early. Long term, this education increases their chances of escaping poverty, early marriage, and child labour
gareth and sam have done an environmentally intrusive subdivision development at the mouth of rhe cardrona valley near wanaka….went to the high court to overturn an environment court decision in the process….he will never be getting my vote
Ms Addy said the proposal had the potential to cause adverse visual effects but, given the nature of the circumstances, including its consented baseline and the controls offered by the applicant, the adverse effects would be less than minor.
So ‘less than minor’ adverse visual effects trumps transforming the lives of children in Timor. And other projects I could link to going back at least 15 years.
I doesn’t really seem to be worthwhile to do such things in New Zealand.
Look at Mr Mark Dunajtschik. He is giving $50 million for a new Children’s Hospital.
About 90% of the comments on here were abusive to him.
As I recall it, most of the commenters were of the view that we shouldn’t be in a position of relying on the charity of the wealthy to fund children’s hospitals. It’s beyond me how anyone could argue against that view.
Apparently that’s being abusive to rich people /sarc
I also like that Alwyn brings up a guy about which most people know two things (he’s rich, and he did a really nice thing for kids) to compare with Morgan, who’s beliefs and attitudes are pretty prominent.
I dunno anything about Dunajtschik. Morgan strikes me as being a bit of a dick.
Last few years I’ve been working for a man who’s built a highly innovative and energetic company from almost nothing to over 160 employees with a global presence.
I’m certain you’d label him a ‘dickhead’ as well … but hell he got things done few other people did. I do get that this isn’t the only possible leadership model, but in my experience people who successfully turn big dreams into big results, have charged their way through endless naysayers and challenges to get there.
They really tend not to tolerate fools well. If you want to label this ‘dickhead’ then be my guest … but I’d call you out on a certain failure of imagination too.
And Psycho Mil – what’s the bet when the hospital is opened with the ribbon to be cut and all the MP’s in creation there it will be the PM (whoever he/she is) beaming and trying to hog the cudos trying to cut the ribbon. I am like you – ashamed that we have to rely on charity to build a kid’s hospital. People pay taxes so that great and good things for the greater good are created – but it seems that we are not doing the job and charity has to pick up the tab. Disgraceful.
I mean this in a kindly way, but there should be an extension to Godwin’s law. Instead of just automatically invalidating your argument by mentioning Hitler, it would be comparing any politician to Trump for no particular reason, other than the go to bad dude.
To his credit, Gareth Morgan has actual policies he appears to believe in and have thought about.
He has started some conversations around housing and education.
He also presents a good alternative for young smarty pants urban professionals who could so easily be pulled to the dark side of National.
Really, Gareth has far more in common with Hillary et al.
TOP is a vanity party, and NZ First is a vanity party. Trump was/is a vanity candidate. Neither of them will do good to anyone but them in the short and long term.
“as he is not paying income taxes or any taxes”.
He hasn’t said anything like that. The most he has claimed is that he pays a lower percentage of his income in taxes than people with much lower incomes.
If he spends anything at all in New Zealand he is certainly going to have to pay GST.
The New Zealand GST system is one of the best planned taxes there is. It is almost impossible to avoid without reducing your expenditure to nothing. It is a superbly designed, and very simple system.
he has screwed the system so far, up until now, and will in the future so as to extract as much wealth for him as possible. That is why he is currently not paying taxes, but you do. 🙂
“He’s clarified that a yearly property/estate tax would be paid at the end of someone’s life so elderly people aren’t having to re-mortgage homes and sell up when they are asset rich but cash poor.”
Or when they move into a smaller home, or a rest home? Sorry, but I think generic taxing of non-wealthy elderly in this way is unethical and problematic. Put a CGT on assets that aren’t the family home. Tax high income earners. Tax corporations. Put in a Financial Transaction Tax. Tax polluters. Lots of things that can be done without going first for poor people.
@ WEKA Put a CGT on assets that aren’t the family home. Tax high income earners. Tax corporations. Put in a Financial Transaction Tax. Tax polluters. Lots of things that can be done without going first for poor people.
thank you for stating it so much better then me.
he is not proposing a single tax on him. He is proposing to means tests us, so that he and his can’t get super. Let him and his wife have super, and tax the hilt out of them.
“he is not proposing a single tax on him. He is proposing to means tests us, so that he and his can’t get super. Let him and his wife have super, and tax the hilt out of them.”
This too.
The weird thing is, I learnt about taxing higher incomes earners in order to fund a UBI from Red Logix. But that’s not what Morgan is doing exactly. He has a philosophical/ideological approach around tax, and thus fails to design well for poor people. He can tack on all the addendums he likes, but it’s still blatantly obvious that while he has some good ideas his starting points are wrong. We shouldn’t have economists designing society.
Any scheme that applies a CGT but excludes the family home, and means tests the Super but excludes the family home will be like the system they have in Australia. It is a disaster.
Basically you are stupid to retire with assets, excluding the family home, that are more than $400,000 and less than about $1,500,000.
You will lose part of your Super on any amount greater than $400k and lose the lot if you have more than $800k. It will take you the $1.5m to get an income equal to what you would get with a complete Super payment and $400k savings.
If you reach 65 with, say, $800k the best thing is to spend the extra $400k on either getting a new house, expanding your existing house or going on a long, luxurious, world trip.
That is precisely what many Australians do. They are being completely rational to do so.
He is not proposing to means test the UBI. It will mean exactly what it says.
Gareth isn’t forced to collect Super. You have to apply for it and if you don’t apply you don’t get it.
Bob Jones doesn’t get it you know. He says he doesn’t need it and he never asked for it. Pity some of our richer ex-politicians like Jim Anderton never followed his example.
Put a CGT on the family home too. But include a rollover provision for the family home. A family home exemption gets really messy, I’ve seen that in the US.
What I mean by rollover is: say a family buys a home for $500k, then a few years later sells it for $1M to buy a new home for $1.3M. Without a rollover, they would be liable for CGT on the $1/2M capital gain. With a rollover, they pay no CGT now, but the cost basis of their new home is the $500k they paid for their old home plus the extra $300k for the upgrade, for a total of $800k. So if they had to immediately turn around and sell the new home for $1.25M (say coz they were transferred overseas), they would pay CGT on $450k capital gain ($1250K sales price less $800K cost basis). That explanation ignores the reasonable deductions that should be included in a CGT, like selling expenses, cost of capital improvements etc.
If an elder person has just sold their home for $300,000 or say $500,000 and they’ve been living rent free for a number years and earn over $300 a week in super I would count them as well off.
I can’t see why a good slice of estate tax can come off that sale. It seems quite similar to a capital gains tax in that sense.
It treats homes as investment assets, which underpins the whole housing crisis. Home simply shouldn’t be taxed that way. If someone is buying houses and selling them to make money, sure tax the sales. But taking a % of wealth off low income people is not a good way to approach social security.
We shouldn’t be going after the generic elderly and treating them as if they are like younger people. I hope I don’t have to explain the rationale behind that.
Homes shouldn’t be treated as financial instruments, right up until the moment they become purely a financial instrument. That moment happens at settlement of the sale.
The principle idea is to tax wealthy assets and redistribute that money into tax cuts for low income earners. Again it’s hard to see how Gareth does well out of that.
Exactly. weka is projecting a pretty weird idea of ‘poor’ here.
Keep in mind that many might be living in homes worth the thick end of $1m and may have a number of ways to turn some of that asset into cash during their lifetimes.
There are two kinds of equity you can think of; vertical equity which means treating small and large instances the same. In brief this is one of the simple outcomes of flat taxes and a UBI, the outcome is progressive but whether you are a paper boy earning your first dollar, or a CEO on millions … you are being treated exactly the same by the tax system. That’s one sense of fair.
Horizontal equity means that all income whether in cash or in kind regardless of source is treated the same. The huge issue for NZ is that we have been privileging housing and property over cash income for a very long time. This is why our economy is now so grossly distorted.
The best taxes are small, simple and universal. This means there is no incentive or opportunity to evade or work around misdirecting investment for tax reasons rather than productive ones.
While it’s reasonable to quibble the exact structure and details of TOP’s proposed Asset tax, the fundamental idea of it is sound.
On the contrary, it’s the fundamentals I have a problem with. They don’t get welfare or its value and hence they’ve designed policy around economics. That serves economies. I want the people to be served.
Yet the odd thing is that the most common objection I hear from people when I first mention UBI, is along the lines “It makes beneficiaries of everyone!” … as if that were a very bad thing.
Frankly I struggle to understand this big distinction is that you are making between say $200pw income from a welfare benefit and $200pw income from a UBI.
Except that the former is something you had to line up, fill out paperwork and grovel for … while the latter is by right and unconditional.
Of course in the short term introducing a UBI to fully replace Welfare isn’t reasonable. Never said it was and that is clearly not TOP policy. The initial proposal is to make it available to youth, families with young children and the elderly and combine it with existing Welfare.
In the longer term if the UBI was successful and demonstrated the positive outcomes I believe it could have, then an expanded UBI could become truly Universal for everyone. But even then I doubt it would ever fully replace targeted welfare.
Reshaping an economy so that it works to serve people in the way you have in mind, would be a gradual transition. It could take a generation or more. The idea of slam-bam shock policy died with Roger Douglas.
I’m supportive of a UBI if it’s designed around wellbeing. That’s not what Morgan is doing. He’s designing from an economic perspective and adding in the nice social bits as he goes. This is why The Big Kahuna fails to address the topup issue meaningfully and leaves it as a side bar to sort out later. That’s dangerous.
I don’t know anyone that can live on $200/wk. I’m sure there are some people, but they’re generally people that have other resources e.g. no rent.
You seem to think welfare is about a sum of money. It’s not, it’s about caring for people when they need it. Morgan is pretty clear he wants people to be personally responsible and for the state to radically lessen support. So bad luck if you can’t manage on what Morgan deems sufficient or in ways that Morgan deems as reasonable or normal.
Reshaping an economy so that it works to serve people in the way you have in mind, would be a gradual transition. It could take a generation or more.
Considering that there’s really only one way to do it it’d take five minutes.
1. Stop banks from creating money
2. Implement a UBI and government spending as the only way money enters the economy
Done. You really can’t do it any other way because all other ways require looking for ways to pay for the UBI which can’t be done. This way the UBI pays for the economy and we end up with an economy that’s stable and works for everyone.
If you have no other income and you qualify for welfare, TOP policy has clearly evolved to a position where your income would be the unconditional UBI plus a conditional top up welfare benefit to at least current levels.
The Big Kahuna was published some years ago now; the issue of ‘top ups’ has now been addressed in detail. How ‘dangerous’ was that?
You seem to think welfare is about a sum of money. It’s not, it’s about caring for people when they need it.
Yet whenever we’ve discussed this in the past this is EXACTLY what you brought it back to … how to bridge the gap between the UBI and current benefits. Now it’s clear the welfare top up mechanism would fill that gap just fine, you move the goal-posts again to demanding that state needs to be ‘caring’ as well.
If your idea of state ‘care’ is the status quo welfare system; well you have me stumped.
Morgan is pretty clear he wants people to be personally responsible and for the state to radically lessen support
IF at UBI with it’s myriad of benefits really did transform society in the way many people hope, and that people really did find it much easier to find ways to support themselves in ways that suited them and fulfilled their dreams in life … why would this be such a bad thing?
If a UBI really did eliminate the poverty trap, toxic dependency, reduce the number of people who needed support, what exactly are you objecting to here?
Why represent this as binary choice between ‘collective caring’ OR ‘personal responsibility’ … when surely a blend of the strengths of both might be an ideal worth thinking about?
You always make me feel so conservative. But on this I largely agree with you. Creating credit is a necessary economic function and using the UBI to generate a large fraction of it, instead of the allowing the banks to have a monopoly as they do now, is a very interesting idea.
But as always principle and pragmatism should never try to gatecrash the same party. Ends in tears.
If you have no other income and you qualify for welfare, TOP policy has clearly evolved to a position where your income would be the unconditional UBI plus a conditional top up welfare benefit to at least current levels.
The Big Kahuna was published some years ago now; the issue of ‘top ups’ has now been addressed in detail. How ‘dangerous’ was that?
Really? Because as far as I can tell the TOP ‘UBI’ currently is on top of existing benefits. Are you suggesting this is the plan for a full UBI eventually?
What’s the ‘conditional topup’?
I’ve not seen anything credible from TOP on supplementary benefits.
As for the rest of your comment, you appear to be arguing with me as if I’m against a UBI. I’ve said multiple times that I’m supportive of a UBI but that I think Morgan’s one is seriously lacking. When you start hearing what I am actually saying and engaging with that I’ll reciprocate.
actually people might be living in an asset worth of a million if they find a buyer who will give them a million dollar. Until then the house is only ever worth what someone pays for it, and that might be nought.
where i bought my house the average price for house without land is around 60.000$ The land then comes in at another 50.000 or so, so the average house / land here sells around 80 .000 – 120.000 . These people surely are rolling in cash. Lets means test them, lest they get to much right?
but I agree, Mr. Morgan should be paying taxes as he has several million dollar properties that – as per his own saying – he keeps empty and thus not profitable to ‘protect the carpet’ from the tenants. He should be paying a lot of taxes on his empty investment properties until it becomes so unprofitable for him to have these properties empty that he either sells them for someone to live in or rents them for someone to live in.
I side with Sabine. Morgan screwed the dirty system to the max when he was young and greedy, then, after making enough money, went into semi-retirement, travelled around a bit, and began to gain a glimmer of social understanding. Now he masquerades (even if he believes in his own myths) as a philanthropic worker for the social good. Like that American mogul Carnegie, he does good works that I think ring hollow.
I used to think that the ‘politics of envy’ was a right wing myth … but watching more than a few people here I’m beginning to think they may have been correct all along.
As you wish. But how old are you? I remember back in the 90s when Morgan was the clever smarty-pants expert being touted on TV as a great consultant on the value of the Dollar. He was part of the big neo-liberal mouthpiece. He needs to go a long way further to atone for all that, and he is nowhere near it so far. Maybe you are too young to understand this.
Almost old enough for Super thank you. You remember a different Morgan to me; I recall someone who was always an outsider, all too prone to speaking his mind to ever be part of the big club.
But the 90’s are quite a long time back now; and people do change. I know I have a lot, and I’d hazard a guess you have too.
Hell I once even voted ACT. Have I done enough to atone for it by now do you think?
lol – nobody can atone for that!
I am already on Super, but I guessed wrongly at you being young.
I remember people avidly following Roger Douglas with his flat tax ideas, thinking they were pushing left-wing policies having got rid of Muldoon. I sense a little of the same in Morgan, sad to say.
He became an outspoken outsider only after he had profited from the damaging policies he approved of, to my mind. But who knows? None of us is infallible. I have agreed with every post of yours I have seen up until now – and this is not a major thing.
Go for what we believe in, eh?
Labour’s been announcing portions of its (?$200mil I think?) regional development fund in each reagion little visits – Dunedin’s getting IT industry support, Gisborne will get a prefab housing factory (there’s the 100k homes methinks), dunno what else.
more cops and light rail for auckland, too. And working towards a living wage and better workplace rights, of course. 3 yrs free tertiary education.
I’m sure the Greens have some additional/even better policies, too. NZ1 will probably have some hefty regional development policies as well.
They’re neck and neck as they come round the course but I think The Chairman is pulling to the front and is the WINNER for the most concerned troll of the morning. Will he keep up this pace during the day and emerge a champion tonight?
What a commenter, day after day, he keeps up the pace. He will be a hard man to beat and will wear his blue jersey with pride for the timebeing , and may receive his cobalt shade one in the BIG prizegiving day in September. But there are good contenders, yes they are giving him hot competition, and if their jaws don’t drop off or fingers wear out to their wrists, they’ll be close behind.
But watch this wonderful little performer for good value entertainment.
But will his body be able to sustain that frenetic level of activity? One snapped tendon, or one blister in the wrong place, and his keyboarding rate could plunge, causing a dramatic loss to all those who enjoy wringing their hands as they mull over the complexities and intricacies of those weighty problems that constantly plague the parties of the Left, but never the Right.
One can only hope…
No mention of Johnny Key our humble home boy getting a top award from Oz for not causing their bedsheets to get rucked up by any thorny questions that meek little NZs want to raise. After all when all the big money is covered by Oz banks who would dare be tempted to annoy them.
Meanhile our brownies languish on islands that are not paradise (any whities there? If not sounds like discrimination to me.) Oz has long been the Dis-crimi-nation but I had hoped for better from NZ politicians. But hey, nice doggie John, give him a medal and a bone too, the best for you, an Honorary Companion in the Order of Australia. This is the highest Australian honour.
there is a sting in the tail here for the Nats ..while i always mistrusted the guy he did seem to have a way with some in the electorate…his resurrection with a medal so close to the election serves to show how crap English is
Moving on from illegal taping,
the $100k hush money,
confidentiality agreement,
bill english lying to the public,
barclay continuing to be paid,
staff resignations
and media avoidance…
an extremely important question to be addressed (vital to the whole puzzle) is…
Even Gunloving Rednecks in the US are starting to see through the lies of the neo-liberal establishment. I bet they will not get the lenient treatment handed out to Armed-Right-Wing groups who invade and occupy federal land etc.
Armed Left-Wing Group Wants To Stamp Out Fascism – The Young Turks – Published on Jul 17, 2017
But one can never be too careful because placards!.
What protesting on the border has come to. Texas Militia is "protecting" Greg Abbott campaign event in McAllen from peaceful protesters. pic.twitter.com/rfP4VzexqR— Dani Marrero Hi (@danimarr94) July 15, 2017
What protesting on the border has come to. Texas Militia is "protecting" Greg Abbott campaign event in McAllen from peaceful protesters. pic.twitter.com/rfP4VzexqR
These guys are saying they are willing to defend the US Constitution. Not just the first amendment that is the only thing a lot of right-wingers care about, but these guys are trying to protect the down trodden against these that seek to do them harm.
What’s is it with green MPs and honesty, two gone in the last week in oz suddenly rembering they had dual citizenship, one in nz deciding to be honest after 20 or so tears of been dishonest
What a terrible typo.
” after 20 or so tears of been dishonest”.
I didn’t see any tears at all. She was chortling with laughter about how she had got away with ripping off the taxpayer.
One of our parties managed to put up a list candidate who wasn’t actually a citizen at all I think it was NZF but I wouldn’t put money on it. I may be unfairly maligning them.
Alwyn’s total misrepresentation of those alleged tears/chuckling represent merely his own wishful thinking. Quite a pattern emerging of that…
And will one of you sort out ‘been’ and ‘being’?
And write out 10 times, ‘That’s all you’ve got.’
‘That’s all you got’ means ‘That’s all you received’.
Don’t make yourself look sillier than you need to.
And the whole world does not hate a corrector – only those who need correction. Like you.
I shall take your word for it.
Your memory is clearly better than mine on the matter. I only remembered that it happened to some party at some election.
And, for any NZF supporter who may read this blog, I apologise for maligning you.
Tears of laughter after 20 years of taking the proverbial, oh I will pay it back if they can prove it beyond my carefully legally constructed confession for perceived political benefit
[RL: Two unsubstantiated smears. Lift your game. Last warning.]
Puller always looks like she just snagged the last cream bun. Crutcher always looks like someone goosed her. Bingles always looks like one of his kids shat in his brogues. Such is life.
Rowan Atkinson being a Conservative giving out his feelings about immigration in the UK. (Think this was during Thatcher years. It may be entirely different now.)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGdwfykYGY
Please note. This is political satire.
Chris Hipkins, after he became prime minister, committed to defeating the cost-of- living crisis. He proceeded to make a bonfire of policies that were at the heart of Jacinda Ardern’s administration. But, as Richard Prebble pointed out this week, “the government has not just U-turned, it has repudiated the ...
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Evaluating the recent crashes of Silicon Valley Bank in the US and Credit Suisse in Switzerland plus two other banks (perhaps more by the time you read this) needs to begin with a review of the inevitable instability in the financial sector. The financial sector is inherently unstable, like military ...
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Photo by Josh Mills on UnsplashIt’s that time of the week for an ‘Ask Me Anything’ session for paying subscribers about the week that was for the next hour, including:The runs on Silicon Valley Bank and First Republic Bank on the west coast of the United States that forced the ...
Roundup is back! We skipped last week’s Friday post due to a shortage of person-power – did you notice? Lots going on out there… Our header image this week shows a green street that just happens to be Queen St, by @chamfy from Twitter. This week (and last) in ...
After threatening Prime Minister Chris Hipkins of consequences if he dared to bar her entry, Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull has been given her visa, regardless. This will enable her to hold rallies in Auckland and Wellington this weekend, and spread her messages of hostility against an already marginalised trans community. Neo-Nazis may, ...
* Bryce Edwards writes – The New Zealand Government has been silent about Australia’s decision to commit up to $400bn acquiring nuclear submarines, even though this is a significant threat to peace and stability in the Asia Pacific. The deal was struck by the Albanese Labor Government as ...
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The New Zealand Government has been silent about Australia’s decision to commit up to $400bn acquiring nuclear submarines, even though this is a significant threat to peace and stability in the Asia Pacific. The deal was struck by the Albanese Labor Government as part of its Aukus pact with the ...
Recently you might have heard of a person called Posie Parker and her visit to Aotearoa. Perhaps you’re not quite sure what it’s all about. So let’s start with who this person is, why their visit is controversial, and what on earth a TERF is.Posie Parker is the super villain ...
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Open access notables The United States experienced some historical low temperature records during the just-concluded winter. It's a reminder that climate and weather are quite noisy; with regard to our warming climate,, as with a road ascending a mountain range we may steadily change our conditions but with lots of ...
Buzz from the Beehive The Nanny State has scored some wins (or claimed them) in the past day or two but it faltered when it came to protecting Kiwi citizens from being savaged by one woman armed with a sharp tongue. The wins are recorded by triumphant ministers on the ...
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Not that long ago, things were looking pretty good for climate change policy in Aotearoa. We finally had an ETS, and while it was full of pork and subsidies, it was delivering high and ever-rising carbon prices, sending a clear message to polluters to clean up or shut down. And ...
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* Bryce Edwards writes – New Zealanders are uncomfortable with the high level of influence corporate lobbyists have in New Zealand politics, and demands are growing for greater regulation. A recent poll shows 62 per cent of the public support having a two-year cooling off period between ministers leaving public ...
New Zealanders are uncomfortable with the high level of influence corporate lobbyists have in New Zealand politics, and demands are growing for greater regulation. A recent poll shows 62 per cent of the public support having a two-year cooling off period between ministers leaving public office and becoming lobbyists and ...
This is a guest post by accessibility and sustainable transport advocate Tim Adriaansen It originally appeared here. A friend calls you and asks for your help. They tell you that while out and about nearby, they slipped over and landed arms-first. Now their wrist is swollen, hurting like ...
Floating offshore wind turbines offer incredible opportunities to capture powerful winds far out at sea. By unlocking this wind energy potential, they could be a key weapon in our arsenal in the fight against climate change. But how developed are these climate fighting clean energy giants? And why do I ...
Over the past two or three weeks, a procession of Maori iwi and hapu in a series of little-noticed appearances before two Select Committees have been asking for more say for Maori over resource management decisions along the co-governance lines of Three Waters. Their submissions and appearances run counter ...
The decision of the International Criminal Court (ICC) to issue war crimes arrest warrants for the Russian President and the Russia Children Ombudsman may have been welcomed by the ideologically committed but otherwise seems to have been greeted with widespread cynicism (see Situation in Ukraine: ICC judges issue arrest warrants ...
Let’s say you’re clasping your drink at a wedding, or a 40th, or a King’s Birthday Weekend family reunion and Drunk Uncle Kevin has just got going.He’s in an expansive frame of mind because we’re finally rid of that silly girl. But he wants to ask an honest question about ...
National Party leader Christopher Luxon may be feeling glum about his poll ratings, but he could be tapping into a rich political vein in describing the current state of education as “alarming”. Luxon said educational achievement has been declining, with a recent NCEA pilot exposing just how far it has ...
Way Beyond Reform: Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa-Packer have no more interest in remaining permanent members of “New Zealand’s” House of Representatives than did Lenin and Trotsky in remaining permanent members of Tsar Nicolas II’s “democratically-elected” Duma. Like the Bolsheviks, Te Pāti Māori is a party of revolutionaries – not reformists.THE CROWN ...
Buzz from the Beehive Auckland was wiped off the map, when Education Minister Jan Tinetti delivered her speech of welcome as host of the inaugural Conference of Pacific Education Ministers “here in Tāmaki Makaurau”. But – fair to say – a reference was made later in the speech to a ...
Morning mate, how you going?Well, I was watching the news last night and they announced this scientific report on Climate Change. But before they got to it they had a story about the new All Blacks coach.Sounds like important news. It’s a bit of a worry really.Yeah, they were talking ...
Always a bailout: US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said the Government would fully guarantee all savers in all smaller US banks if needed. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: No wonder an entire generation of investors are used to ‘buying the dip’ and ‘holding on for dear life’. US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen ...
Wealthy vested interests have an oversized influence on political decisions in New Zealand. Partly that’s due to their use of corporate lobbyists. Fortunately, the influence lobbyists can have on decisions made by politicians is currently under scrutiny in Guyon Espiner’s in-depth series published by RNZ. Two of Espiner’s research exposés ...
Yesterday afternoon it rained and traffic around the region ground to a halt, once again highlighting why it is so important that our city gets on with improving the alternatives to driving. For additional irony, this happened on the same day the IPCC synthesis report landed, putting the focus on ...
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RNZ has continued its look at the role of lobbyists by taking a closer look at the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff Andrew Kirton. He used to work for liquor companies, opposing (among other things) a container refund scheme which would have required them to take responsibility for their own ...
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James Shaw gave the Green party's annual "state of the planet" address over the weekend, in which he expressed frustration with Labour for not doing enough on climate change. His solution is to elect more Green MPs, so they have more power within any government arrangement, and can hold Labour ...
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Buzz from the Beehive The building of financial capability was brought into our considerations when Social Development and Employment Minister Carmel Sepuloni announced she had dipped into the government’s coffers for $3 million for “providers” to help people and families access community-based Building Financial Capability services. That wording suggests some ...
Do you ever come across something that makes you go Hmmmm?You mean like the song?No, I wasn’t thinking of the song, but I am now - thanks for that. I was thinking of things you read or hear that make you stop and go Hmmmm.Yeah, I know what you mean, ...
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When word went out that Prime Minister Chris Hipkins would be making an announcement about Stuart Nash on the tiles at parliament at 2:45pm yesterday, the assumption was that it was over. That we had reached tipping point for Nash’s time as minister. But by 3pm - when, coincidentally, the ...
Two senior economists challenge some of the foundations of current economics. It is easy to criticise economic science by misrepresenting it, by selective quotations, and by ignoring that it progresses, like all sciences, by improving and abandoning old theories. The critics may go on to attack physics by citing Newton.So ...
Photo by Walker Fenton on UnsplashIt’s that time of the week again when and I co-host our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kaka for an hour at 5 pm. Jump on this link on Riverside (we’ve moved from Zoom) for our chat about the week’s news with ...
In a nice bit of news, my 2550-word deindustrial science-fiction piece, The Dream of Florian Neame, has been accepted for publication at New Maps Magazine (https://www.new-maps.com/). I have published there before, of course, with Of Tin and Tintagel coming out last year. While I still await the ...
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There was a time when a political party’s publicity people would counsel against promoting a candidate as queer. No matter which of two dictionary meanings the voting public might choose to apply – the old meaning of odd, strange, weird, or aberrant, or the more recent meaning of gay, homosexual ...
Photo by Joakim Honkasalo on UnsplashIt’s that time of the week for an ‘Ask Me Anything’ session for paying subscribers about the week that was for the next hour, including:PM Chris Hipkins announcement of the rest of a policy bonfire to save a combined $1.7 billion, but which blew up ...
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Thomas Cranmer writesLike it or not, the culture wars have entered New Zealand politics and look set to broaden and intensify. The culture wars are often viewed as an exclusively American phenomenon, but the reality is that they are becoming increasingly prominent in countries around the world, ...
Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation to speak with you today and in your busy lives turning up to this meeting. Forty five years ago, in Howick, often described as racist, and where few Maori lived because it had been a ‘Fencible’ settlement at the time of the Anglo-Maori ...
The Green Party has marked the National Party’s new education policy and given it a fail, especially for its failure to address the underlying drivers of school performance. ...
Political parties that want to negotiate with the Green Party must come to the table with much faster, bolder climate action, co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson emphasised in their State of the Planet speech today. ...
Political parties that want to negotiate with the Green Party after the election must come to the table with much faster, bolder climate action, co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson emphasised today. ...
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The error Labour Ministers made by stopping work on a beverage container return scheme will be reversed by the Greens at the earliest opportunity as part of the next Government. ...
“Cabinet needs to do better - and today has shown exactly why we need Green Ministers in cabinet, so we can prioritise action to cut climate pollution and support people to make ends meet,” says Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson. ...
Biggest increase in food prices for over three decades shows the need for an excess profit tax on corporations to help people put food on the table. ...
The Green Party has today launched a submission guide to help Aucklanders give crucial input and prevent potentially disastrous Auckland Council budget proposals. ...
With calls growing for inquiries and action on bank profits, the Greens say the Government has all the information it needs to act now and put a levy on banks. ...
As large parts of Aotearoa recover from two of the worst climate disasters we have ever experienced, it would be a huge mistake for the Government to deprioritise climate action from future transport investments, the Green Party says. ...
The Green Party is celebrating the signing of a historic United Nations Ocean Treaty, and calls on the new Oceans and Fisheries Minister to urgently step up protection for Aotearoa’s oceans. ...
Attorney-General David Parker has announced the appointment of Christopher John Dellabarca of Wellington, Dr Katie Jane Elkin of Wellington, Caroline Mary Hickman of Napier, Ngaroma Tahana of Rotorua, Tania Rose Williams Blyth of Hamilton and Nicola Jan Wills of Wellington as District Court Judges. Chris Dellabarca Mr Dellabarca commenced his ...
A new Government-backed project will help ocean-related businesses in the Nelson Tasman region to accelerate their growth and boost jobs. “The Nelson Tasman region is home to more than 400 blue economy businesses, accounting for more than 30 percent of New Zealand’s economic activity in fishing, aquaculture, and seafood processing,” ...
After three years of COVID-19 disruptions schools are finally settling down and National want to throw that all in the air with major disruption to learning and underinvestment. “National’s education policy lacks the very thing teachers, parents and students need after a tough couple of years, certainty and stability,” Education ...
People aged over 50 with innovative business ideas will now be able to receive support to advance their ideas to the next stage of development, Minister for Seniors Ginny Andersen said today. “Seniors have some great entrepreneurial ideas, and this programme will give them the support to take that next ...
A cross government target for relevant government procurement contracts for goods and services to be awarded to Māori businesses annually will increase to 8%, after the initial 5% target was exceeded. The progressive procurement policy was introduced in 2020 to increase supplier diversity, starting with Māori businesses, for the estimated ...
77,000 fewer children living in low income households on the after-housing-costs primary measure since Labour took office Eight of the nine child poverty measures have seen a statistically significant reduction since 2018. All nine have reduced 28,700 fewer children experiencing material hardship since 2018 Measures taken by the Government during ...
Deputy Prime Minister Kamikamica; distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen. Tēnā koutou katoa, ni sa bula vinaka saka, namaste. Deputy Prime Minister, a very warm welcome to Aotearoa. I trust you have been enjoying your time here and thank you for joining us here today. To all delegates who have travelled to be ...
$2.9 million convertible loan for Scapegrace Distillery to meet growing national and international demand $4.5m underwrite to support Silverlight Studios’ project to establish a film studio in Wanaka Gore’s James Cumming Community Centre and Library to be official opened tomorrow with support of $3m from the COVID-19 Response and Recovery ...
Transport Minister Michael Wood has today launched the first national EV (electric vehicle) charging strategy, Charging Our Future, which includes plans to provide EV charging stations in almost every town in New Zealand. “Our vision is for Aotearoa New Zealand to have world-class EV charging infrastructure that is accessible, affordable, ...
Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment Priyanca Radhakrishnan has today launched the Love Better campaign in a world-leading approach to family harm prevention. Love Better will initially support young people through their experience of break-ups, developing positive and life-long attitudes to dealing with hurt. “Over 1,200 young kiwis told ...
Hon Rino Tirikatene, Minister for Courts, welcomes the Ministry of Justice’s appointment of Dr Garry Clearwater as New Zealand’s first Chief Clinical Advisor working with the Coroners Court. “This appointment is significant for the Coroners Court and New Zealand’s wider coronial system.” Minister Tirikatene said. Through Budget 2022, the Government ...
The Government via the Cyclone Taskforce is working with local government and insurance companies to build a picture of high-risk areas following Cyclone Gabrielle and January floods. “The Taskforce, led by Sir Brian Roche, has been working with insurance companies to undertake an assessment of high-risk areas so we can ...
E te huia kaimanawa, ko Ngāpuhi e whakahari ana i tau aupikinga ki te tihi o te maunga. Ko te Ao Māori hoki e whakanui ana i a koe te whakaihu waka o te reo Māori i roto i te Ao Ture. (To the prized treasure, it is Ngāpuhi who ...
113,400 exits into work in the year to June 2022 Young people are moving off Benefit faster than after the Global Financial Crisis Two reports released today by the Ministry of Social Development show the Government’s investment in the COVID-19 response helped drive record numbers of people off Benefits and ...
The Government’s priority to keep New Zealand at the cutting edge of food production and lift our sustainability credentials continues by backing the next steps of a hi-tech vertical farming venture that uses up to 95 per cent less water, is climate resilient, and pesticide-free. Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor visited ...
E nga mana, e nga iwi, e nga reo, e nga hau e wha, tena koutou, tena koutou, tena koutou kātoa. Warm Pacific greetings to all. It is an honour to host the inaugural Conference of Pacific Education Ministers here in Tāmaki Makaurau. Aotearoa is delighted to be hosting you ...
The new renal unit at Taranaki Base Hospital has been officially opened by the Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall this afternoon. Te Huhi Raupō received around $13 million in government funding as part of Project Maunga Stage 2, the redevelopment of the Taranaki Base Hospital campus. “It’s an honour ...
Defence Minister Andrew Little has marked the arrival of the country’s second P-8A Poseidon aircraft alongside personnel at the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s Base at Ohakea today. “With two of the four P-8A Poseidons now on home soil this marks another significant milestone in the Government’s historic investment in ...
Aotearoa New Zealand will provide further humanitarian support to those seriously affected by last month’s deadly earthquakes in Türkiye and Syria, says Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta. “The 6 February earthquakes have had devastating consequences, with almost 18 million people affected. More than 53,000 people have died and tens of thousands more ...
Migrant communities across New Zealand are represented in the new Migrant Community Reference Group that will help shape immigration policy going forward, Immigration Minister Michael Wood announced today. “Since becoming Minister, a reoccurring message I have heard from migrants is the feeling their voice has often been missing around policy ...
Construction has begun on major works that will deliver significant safety improvements on State Highway 3 from Waitara to Bell Block, Associate Minister of Transport Kiri Allan announced today. “This is an important route for communities, freight and visitors to Taranaki but too many people have lost their lives or ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has today appointed Ginny Andersen as Minister of Police. “Ginny Andersen has a strong and relevant background in this important portfolio,” Chris Hipkins said. “Ginny Andersen worked for the Police as a non-sworn staff member for around 10 years and has more recently been chair of ...
Six further bailey bridge sites confirmed Four additional bridge sites under consideration 91 per cent of damaged state highways reopened Recovery Dashboards for impacted regions released The Government has responded quickly to restore lifeline routes after Cyclone Gabrielle and can today confirm that an additional six bailey bridges will ...
Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta departs for China tomorrow, where she will meet with her counterpart, State Councillor and Foreign Minister Qin Gang, in Beijing. This will be the first visit by a New Zealand Minister to China since 2019, and follows the easing of COVID-19 travel restrictions between New Zealand and China. ...
Education Ministers from across the Pacific will gather in Tāmaki Makaurau this week to share their collective knowledge and strategic vision, for the benefit of ākonga across the region. New Zealand Education Minister Jan Tinetti will host the inaugural Conference of Pacific Education Ministers (CPEM) for three days from today, ...
A vital transport link for communities and local businesses has been restored following Cyclone Gabrielle with the reopening of State Highway 5 (SH5) between Napier and Taupō, Associate Minister of Transport Kiri Allan says. SH5 reopened to all traffic between 7am and 7pm from today, with closure points at SH2 (Kaimata ...
Internal Affairs Minister Barbara Edmonds has thanked generous New Zealanders who took part in the special Lotto draw for communities affected by Cyclone Gabrielle. Held on Saturday night, the draw raised $11.7 million with half of all ticket sales going towards recovery efforts. “In a time of need, New Zealanders ...
The Government has announced funding of $3 million for providers to help people, and whānau access community-based Building Financial Capability services. “Demand for Financial Capability Services is growing as people face cost of living pressures. Those pressures are increasing further in areas affected by flooding and Cyclone Gabrielle,” Minister for ...
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Fifteen ākonga Māori from across Aotearoa have been awarded the prestigious Ngarimu VC and 28th (Māori) Battalion Memorial Scholarships and Awards for 2023, Associate Education Minister and Ngarimu Board Chair, Kelvin Davis announced today. The recipients include doctoral, masters’ and undergraduate students. Three vocational training students and five wharekura students, ...
High Court Judge Jillian Maree Mallon has been appointed a Judge of the Court of Appeal, and District Court Judge Andrew John Becroft QSO has been appointed a Judge of the High Court, Attorney‑General David Parker announced today. Justice Mallon graduated from Otago University in 1988 with an LLB (Hons), and with ...
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This section contains briefings received by incoming ministers following changes to Cabinet in January. Some information may have been withheld in accordance with the Official Information Act 1982. Where information has been withheld that is indicated within the document. ...
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This morning I was made aware of a media interview in which Minister Stuart Nash criticised a decision of the Court and said he had contacted the Police Commissioner to suggest the Police appeal the decision. The phone call took place in 2021 when he was not the Police Minister. ...
The Government’s sharp focus on trade continues with Aotearoa New Zealand set to host Trade Ministers and delegations from 10 Asia Pacific economies at a meeting of Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) Commission members in July, Minister for Trade and Export Growth Damien O’Connor announced today. “New Zealand ...
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The New Zealand First leader took to the altar of an East Auckland church today to set out his 2023 election agenda. It was, as Stewart Sowman-Lund found out, pretty much what you’d expect. Winston Peters rolled into Howick today with a state of the nation speech that, he claimed ...
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Analysis - The Greens lay down a challenge as the minor parties approach an election in which both National and Labour are going to need coalition partners to form a government, writes Peter Wilson. ...
By Arieta Vakasukawaqa in Suva Communications Fiji Ltd (CFL) chair William Parkinson has called for a repeal of Fiji’s Media Industry Development Act 2010 and more discussion on the proposed Media Ownership and Registration Bill 2023. He said this during a public consultation on the review of MIDA Act 2010 ...
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The Free Speech Union welcomes the decision of the High Court to reject the application to overrule the decision of the Minister of Immigration to allow Kellie-Jay entry into New Zealand. This was the only right result for a nation that ...
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National’s education policy reinforces an old-fashioned and hierarchical curriculum that does lasting harm to many students, writes educational specialist Dr Sarah Aiono. Announcing the National Party’s new education policy this week, leader Christopher Luxon cited a recent NCEA pilot in which two-thirds of students were unable to meet the minimum ...
Attempts by rainbow groups to stop an anti-trans campaigner entering the country have failed. The High Court has dismissed a judicial review application from Gender Minorities Aotearoa, InsideOUT Kōara and Auckland Pride, aimed at the immigration minister for allowing Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull into New Zealand. As part of the application, the ...
The High Court is this morning considering an interim order that would prevent an anti-trans campaigner from making it into New Zealand. Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull is expected to arrive on our shores today ahead of two planned rallies in Auckland and Wellington over the weekend. After immigration officials deemed her safe ...
I was disappointed to see yesterday afternoon’s announcement that Auckland has chosen to leave Local Government NZ (LGNZ). Hamilton’s membership of LGNZ is one of collaboration and sharing. Being a member gives us important views from other ...
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As reported by Newsroom’s Marc Daalder this morning, correspondence released under the Official Information Act shows advice about puberty blockers was removed from the Ministry of Health website “in the hopes it creates fewer queries” from anti-trans campaigners. The line that was removed from the site said puberty blockers “are ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards. Political Roundup: NZ needs to distance itself from Australia’s anti-China nuclear submarines The New Zealand Government has been silent about Australia’s decision to commit up to $400bn acquiring nuclear submarines, even though this is a significant threat to peace and stability in the Asia Pacific. The ...
Secondary teachers will strike again next week after an agreement on improved pay and working conditions was not reached. The strike will take place on Wednesday, less than two weeks after thousands of educators took to the streets across the country. “PPTA Te Wehengarua members have shown they are serious ...
Te Kāhui Tika Tangata Human Rights Commission is encouraging organisations and individuals to share their views on human rights in Aotearoa New Zealand for the government’s upcoming report to the United Nations. The report informs a process ...
Secondary and area school teachers around the country have voted overwhelmingly in favour of more industrial action, including a one day national strike next Wednesday, in support of their collective agreement negotiations. “PPTA Te Wehengarua members ...
At a time when our need for collective action is stronger than ever, Auckland Council has opted out to save each of its residents just 25c a year, writes former Dunedin mayor Aaron Hawkins.I grew up in rural Southland, in the shadows of the Cut The Cable movement. In ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julie Jakoboski, Oceanographic Data Scientist, Moana Project’s Te Tiro Moana Team Lead, MetService — Te Ratonga Tirorangi Moana project, CC BY-ND The world’s oceans are buffering us from the worst climate impacts by taking up more than 90% of the ...
Morning Report - RNZ and Newsroom's political editors consider National's education pitch, and the political responses to lobbying revelations and Posie Parker. ...
The Free Speech Union will be an intervener this morning as the High Court considers whether Immigration New Zealand's decision to allow Posie Parker (Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull) entry into New Zealand was legal, says Jonathan Ayling, Chief Executive of the Free ...
For over a decade, Manurewa Cosmopolitan Club has come under fire for denying entry to people wearing religious headwear. Despite the Human Rights Commission getting involved, it seems the rule remains unchanged.One of the definitions given by the Oxford dictionary for the word cosmopolitan is: “including people from many ...
Chris Hipkins’ dump of Ardern-era policy has potentially jeopardised a major part of the government’s climate change response. In this week’s episode of When the Facts Change, Bernard Hickey talks to climate policy expert Christina Hood from Climate Compass to find out why this month’s Emissions Trading Scheme auction failed and ...
The head of Local Government NZ, the group representing councils across the country, has hit back at claims made by Auckland mayor Wayne Brown. It was his casting vote that saw Auckland Council leave the representative group yesterday evening, with councillors divided on whether or not it was the right ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matthew Sussex, Fellow, Strategic and Defence Studies Centre, Australian National University There’s been a lot of recent shouting about Australia’s national security policy. It began with the Nine newspapers’ “Red Alert” extravaganza, spread over multiple articles. Featuring a graphic of warplanes ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rachel Goldlust, Adjunct Research Fellow, School of Archaeology and History, La Trobe University Shutterstock Earlier this month, regulators flagged electricity price rises in Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. Like many people, you’re probably wondering how you can ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Xavier Ho, Lecturer in Interaction Design, Monash University Sony Entertainment Mainstream games are embracing openly queer characters – and so are many of their players and fans. The Last of Us, the prestige HBO adaptation of the critically lauded ...
The capital’s transport overhaul will have spent $130 million on consultant fees by the end of next year, Stuff reports. Let’s Get Wellington Moving (LGWM) expects to spend $60 million on outside experts in the coming year, after already spending $38.5m in the past three years and $35m this year. Greater ...
Chris Hipkins’ dump of Ardern-era policy has potentially jeopardised a major part of the government’s climate change response. Bernard Hickey talks to climate policy expert Christina Hood from Climate Compass to find out why this month’s Emissions Trading Scheme auction failed and how she feels cabinet have destroyed confidence in ...
Christopher Luxon says the policy is what’s needed to address serious issues with reading, writing and maths in primary schools. Others aren’t so sure, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here.Back ...
Although Auckland Council’s big cleanup following this year’s extreme weather events continues, “things are getting more difficult at this point”. Five weeks after Cyclone Gabrielle, some 7,000 Aucklanders remain impacted by the aftermath of the floods, slips and heavy winds that battered the region in January and February. Auckland Council’s ...
A traffic bypass stole 20,000 potential daily visitors from its main streets and local businesses. Three years on, how are the Waikato town’s 9,000 residents coping?The tourism centre is closed – “permanently”, says the sign. The cafe next door, once called River Haven, now with two missing letters making ...
After a 19-year-old was killed while riding his bike on a dangerous stretch of Auckland road, the tragedy became a rallying call to make the city safer for cyclists. Tommy de Silva looks at what’s been achieved in the 12 months since. On March 5, 2022, 19-year-old Levi James was ...
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A group of rainbow and human rights organisations has filed for judicial review in the High Court, following the lack of intervention by the immigration minister, Michael Wood, over the decision to allow Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, an anti-trans-rights activist, to enter the country. Gender Minorities Aotearoa, InsideOUT Kōaro, and Auckland Pride ...
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Labour opposed to the Green’s plan to increase benefits.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/335290/labour-threatens-punitive-tax-on-multinationals
Rather disappointing that despite their rhetoric (and so close on the heels of the Children’s Commissioner advocating the indexing of benefits to the average net wage to help address poverty) Labour have declined to increase benefit rates.
What happen to a fairer go for everybody?
Not much of a ‘fresh approach’ for beneficiaries.
The MoU is in tatters.
Labour is being responsible.
Meteria and the Greens will be fuming.
The left is starting to look like a dogs breakfast.
The Greens have just been given a left hook by Labour and about time to.
“Labour is being responsible.”
Failing to help address poverty, thus save the country money and improve living standards, education and health outcomes, is far from being ‘responsible’.
“The Greens have just been given a left hook by Labour…”
It was far from supportive, that’s for sure.
I have to disagree … both parties have laid out policies that will improve the plight for the poorest. The Greens’s policy will provide more than Labour’s policy. There is a sweet spot between the two which both parties can agree on.
The trick is to get them both elected and not have to rely on NZFirst.
And it’s not like Labour could rewrite their policy between Sunday and now.
But any chance to get the boot into Labour. Or the Greens. It’s like people don’t want the left to win if it means cooperating.
Mickeysavage,
The real trick is to get polling traction for Labour, won’t happen whilst the MoU is around its neck.
IMO Labour will only get upwards traction if they dump on the Greens and Winnies party.
Labour should and probably does know that but it seems head office timidity and adverse risk leadership is a problem.
Time will tell, but I expect the sideways attacking of Labour will continue by Winnie and the Greens.
“The Greens’s policy will provide more than Labour’s policy”
And now is the time to let Labour know we expect more if they want our vote.
And if Labour genuinely care about the plight of the poor, why not swiftly act by increasing benefits?
Yep Mickey,
They need all to pull together for the goal of expelling this corrupt administration from our shores forever the sellouts.
TOGETHER WE STAND; – DIVIDED WE FALL.
once and for all.. the MOU never meant labour and green policies would be the same. Do try and pay attention
“The MOU never meant labour and green policies would be the same”
The problem for them is the differences between them makes it difficult for voters to envision the two coherently working together.
Not really. If the goal is the same then agreement can be reached.
Sure. It’s just the differences take a number of voters back to that ad with them all in the rowing boat, rowing different ways trying to get there.
A very small number of NACT voters will go back to their comfy blanky.
Like the Maori Party, ACT, UF and National?
With the Nats having the far larger number, voters feel far more comfortable with such a coalition.
Only those voters who have difficulty understanding the concept of “working together” as opposed to “do what I say”.
Keep it up bearded git the RWs will I hope never get to throw acid at the left, but they do want to dowse the flame of goodness and vitality rising on the let.
thanks grey…..I’m very hopeful for 23rd Sept.
Labour has finally worked out that a simple message plays well to the public, their “Ditch the Tax Cuts; Education, Health, Housing and No to Poverty instead” message is coming through well.
You mean a right hook, billmurray. It seems there will be only misery for you this coming election.
Robert Guyton,
I said a left hook and meant a left hook.
They need to throw a few more to knock some reality into the Green “10%’s we rule the world mentality”.
The Greens may be sincere and of course they may dream, but they will turn this election into a nightmare for Labour with their antics.
Time will tell.
Have you read Chris Trotter’s column yet, Bill?
I’d like to hear your views on it.
You really believe The Greens think they rule the world?
Playing the game with zest doesn’t translate to delusions of omnipotence, in my view. Your people need to pull something out of the hat, Bill, as mine are doing with consummate ease. In any case, any party’s performance can only be sheeted to itself; stop bagging the other players and start adding something to your team’s chances. They, btw, chose to have an MOU with The Greens as did The Greens with them. Do you have no faith at all in your party’s management? I’m backing mine; I reckon they’re smart. If you can’t back them in their shared decision, perhaps politics is not for you?
Robert Guyton,
yes I have read Chris Trotters article, a worthy piece of writing.
But I am afraid that is all.
Look at reality;
Winnies bottom lines, referendums on Maori and number of Parliamentry seats, which will have both Labour and the Greens turning somersaults, They are both keeping quiet about Winnies bottom lines, perhaps stunned into silence?.
Winnie will not announce until after the election who he will coalition with and it will probably take months. He could well go with National, only he and now likely Shane Jones knows.
Labour’s polling is pulled back by their Green party MoU, IMHO.
For the sake of our country’s stability and future Labour needs to be the biggest stakeholder. They have form.
Meteria’s ranting of largess is not going well with taxpaying working people in a 2017 year of elections. Which is by far the largest number of people in NZ. (source MSM and blogs). Labour have already distanced themselves from this economic sorcery. ( I will be surprised if the polls lift up much for the Greens and because Labour has only short bursts of energy they will probably go down against the Greens ).
They Greens are about 10%-12$ in polling they only rule themselves, that’s all.
But they and you do not seem to understand that fact
Bill, I reckon that the comment “the only flash of colour I’ve seen from any party in this grey, grey campaign has been from The Greens” (Metiria’s “confession”) is on the button, so far as I’m concerned. It’ll take some vivid splashes to change the grinding inevitability of a beige result, so I’m 100% with Metiria, The Greens and any others willing to spill primary colours across the muddy goop that’s being offered.
What of the Green’s proposal now?
Labour gave a stern no to increasing benefit rates, thus gave no indication of making concessions for the Greens proposal.
Therefore, unless the Greens secure a good number of seats, their proposal to increase benefits by 20% seems to be a dead duck.
“Labour gave a stern no to increasing benefit rates, thus gave no indication of making concessions for the Greens proposal.”
No, they didn’t. Little just said it’s not their policy. Which makes sense when you think that they already had their policy about to launch when the Greens made their announcement on Sunday. It’s not like Labour could have rewritten their policy in 2 days.
There was nothing stern about it. That’s you and your incessant negativity about Labour. Not for the first time I’m wondering if you are a long play subtle anti-left troll. Always undermining, never offering anything constructive.
there is nothing subtle in the chairmans opinions
True, but the trolling is of the more subtle kind. As opposed to say Red who just runs round with their anti-left position tattooed on their forehead. TC will of course deny they are anti-left.
“TC will of course deny they are anti-left.”
Dead right.
It was only the other day I suggested Labour should run with and build upon the Children’s Commissioner’s proposal of indexing benefits to the average net wage to help address poverty.
I’ve also touted for Goverment to fill private sector voids and help correct market shortfalls, putting forward a number of proposals. Thus, I’m far from right wing.
I didn’t say you were right wing.
“No, they didn’t. Little just said it’s not their policy.”
He gave a stern no stating it’s not what they are promising or what they are planning, thus gave no indication of making concessions for the Greens proposal.
“Which makes sense when you think that they already had their policy about to launch when the Greens made their announcement on Sunday. It’s not like Labour could have rewritten their policy in 2 days.”
With the MOU in place one would expect the Greens would have given Labour notice (and no doubt the opportunity to join along) of their intention to announce one of the most significant changes to our welfare system in a generation.
“That’s you and your incessant negativity about Labour. Not for the first time I’m wondering if you are a long play subtle anti-left troll. Always undermining, never offering anything constructive.”
Why are you attempting to make me the topic?
Because you’re the one who doesn’t understand that “working with others” involves “compromises” which involves “doing something less or more than was promised or planned prior to the event that the promises or plans were contingent upon”.
“Why are you attempting to make me the topic?”
because I’m sick of your incessant negativity and undermining of the left.
“With the MOU in place one would expect the Greens would have given Labour notice (and no doubt the opportunity to join along) of their intention to announce one of the most significant changes to our welfare system in a generation.”
See you can’t even be honest. *you expect that, but as others have explained ad nauseam that’s not what the MoU was designed to do.
“Because I’m sick of your incessant negativity and undermining of the left”
That may be the way you see it, however I see it differently.
Let me explain why.
In this instance, I support the Greens proposal to increase benefits.
Therefore, I believe if we on the left fail to make Labour aware of our disappointment, the less encouraged Labour will be to concede in negotiations on this policy with the Greens.
Being silent doesn’t bring about change.
“See you can’t even be honest”
Me? Have you forgotten the No Surprises policy in the MOU?
Pretty sure that if Labour are reading this post today, they’re scrolling past this particular conversation.
“Being silent doesn’t bring about change.”
I’ve never said you should be silent. I’ve said I’m sick of your incessant negativity. There are plenty of ways to speak to Labour’s policies and positions without actively undermining the left.
“Me? Have you forgotten the No Surprises policy in the MOU?”
Unlike you, I read the MoU as a whole. It doesn’t say that L/G have to work on policy together. It doesn’t say that the Green have to give Labour enough headsup on major policy so that Labour have enough time to consider if they want to change theirs. ‘No surprises’ means that Labour get informed before the policy announcement so they’re not surprised by it.
So yes, you are dishonest. You want Labour and the Greens to have a different MoU than they have.
“There are plenty of ways to speak to Labour’s policies and positions without actively undermining the left”.
I try to avoid undermining the left but as Labour and the Greens sometimes undermine themselves, it’s hard to talk about things openly without somewhat undermining them.
“Unlike you, I read the MoU as a whole. It doesn’t say that L/G have to work on policy together.”
I didn’t say that. However, it gives them scope too. Thus, with such a major announcement, it would be surprising if Labour weren’t invited to join in.
Nevertheless, the No Surprises policy specifically states prior notice is required to be given.
“You want Labour and the Greens to have a different MoU than they have.”
I said and implied no such thing.
Once again, punctilious correctness combined with saintly sanctimony. Chairman, you are known by your deeds, which Weka has described perfectly. You are a concern troll who fakes his sincerity with earnest endeavour. But you do not convince.
Andrew said that they had a different way of addressing poverty. He didn’t say he “opposed” the Green’s approach.
It wasn’t a direct quote. Nevertheless, Little did oppose the Green’s plan to increase benefits, stating Labour had a different approach. But it doesn’t involve increasing the rate benefits are paid.
Which makes them another Labour Party that won’t restore benefit rates.
+1 Ian
TC and BillM getting in early for some trolling. The increasingly frantic response to the Greens policy from the right suggests they are getting worried.
Tell me Karen, do you agree with Bill (Labour is being responsible) or with me?
Don’t tell him, Karen! Let him stew in his own pompous pontifications.
“Let him stew in his own pompous pontifications.”
That has been my policy for some time now.
Lol. I think TC’s question is very telling. His agenda is to undermine the MoU and the potential coalition. Agree with him or bill, works either way.
“Andrew said that they had a different way of addressing poverty”
Yes, but it’s a real shame Labour didn’t opt to build upon the Children’s Commissioner’s recent proposal and work along with the Greens.
Cash transfers are one of the most efficient ways to help address poverty. And as the structure is already in place, it could virtually be done overnight. Instantly improving peoples living standards.
How long will Labour’s approach take?
It will be interesting to see what approach voters prefer.
“they had a different way of addressing poverty”.
I certainly hope so. The Green way, as expounded by their female co-leader simply seems to be steal whatever you want.
Are people really happy that, were Labour to lead a Government, they would happily include in Cabinet a self confessed and apparently unrepentant fraudster?
John Key took a principled approach in 2008, before that year’s election. He said he would not go into Government with Winston Peters because he did not think he could trust him. Winston may have changed but Key was right then.
Why does Little not show some courage and state that fraudsters will not be allowed into any Cabinet positions in a Government he might lead?
Can he really be so desperate that he doesn’t care who he lies down with?
Metiria Turei’s admission was poorly timed and will no doubt have ramifications for her and the Party going forward.
It will put a number of voters off her and the Party. On the other hand, she has mustered some support for being so open.
It will make Labour further question the public perception of them working with her.
But it’s unlikely Labour will get into Government without the Greens. Therefore, unless she stands down, Labour will have little choice but to work with her if they want to be in Government.
I wonder how many Maori people felt affinity with Metiria following her disclosure? I’m guessing many and I’m also guessing that they’ll be inclined to vote for her and her party as a result.
Edit: particularly in response to the breathless umbrage being taken by the privileged sector of the community, as displayed here.
“I wonder how many Maori people felt affinity with Metiria following her disclosure? I’m guessing many and I’m also guessing that they’ll be inclined to vote for her and her party as a result.”
Do you think this will be enough to take the Maori vote off Labour?
The Greens recently said they would be seeking the progressive vote, do you think this will help them secure it?
Surely this will eat into Labour’s support.
And with Peters opposing neo-liberalism, no doubt he’s also going to eat into Labour’s vote. Seems Labour may be in trouble, who will they turn to for support? Move more to the centre?
The Greens eating into Labour’s support is meh, it only makes a difference at the individual MP level.
Winston eating into Labour’s support, on the other hand, is a gift to National. Labour needs to start making clear that a vote for NZ First is a vote for keeping National in power, because it is. After the election, NZF will be on sale to the highest bidder, and National will be the highest bidder just like it was in 1996.
“The Greens eating into Labour’s support is meh, it only makes a difference at the individual MP level”
It will strengthen the Greens when it comes to party negotiations.
Moreover, with Labour polling so low, it will add to the possibility Labour’s vote will fall so low Little won’t get in.
“Winston eating into Labour’s support, on the other hand, is a gift to National. Labour needs to start making clear that a vote for NZ First is a vote for keeping National in power…”
The problem Labour will have with that strategy is the voters most concerned with Winston opting to go with National are most likely to also be the ones more likely to be enticed by Peters anti neo-liberal stance, thus disappointed with Labour’s Budget Responsibility Rules.
NZF have a number of left leaning policy, thus Labour have a good opportunity to offer them a better deal than National. However, Little publicly calling Winston a blowhard isn’t constructive. Nor was giving the Greens the nod to call him a racist.
NZF have a number of left leaning policy, thus Labour have a good opportunity to offer them a better deal than National.
If they were negotiating with New Zealand First, that might count for something. However, they’ll actually be negotiating with Winston Peters, a conservative authoritarian with little taste for left-leaning policies and a great interest in “baubles of office.” So their opportunities to offer a Winston-friendly deal will depend on how little integrity they have. National’s always going to win that game.
The problem Labour will have with that strategy is the voters most concerned with Winston opting to go with National are most likely to also be the ones more likely to be enticed by Peters anti neo-liberal stance, thus disappointed with Labour’s Budget Responsibility Rules.
If it came down to it, it would be better that these people decided not to vote than that they vote for National via a vote for NZF.
Those moved by Metiria’s disclosure might well be wouldn’t-vote-otherwisers, therefore, a gain to the left. That’s how I see it.
“Those moved by Metiria’s disclosure might well be wouldn’t-vote-otherwisers, therefore, a gain to the left.”
Good point.
+1
I suspect that a lot of people felt affinity with Metiria after her disclosure. A hell of a lot of people know just how bad it can get on welfare in this country.
I really hope you don’t mean this in the way it comes across.
Do you really think that Maori, in general, have an affinity with those who deliberately break the law and then boast about it afterward?
I suppose you also think that everyone with any Maori heritage is a member of a gang?
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is just a careless wording problem.
1. A large number will sympathise because they’ve spent time in the same position due to the rich fucking over society
2. Metiria wasn’t boasting – just stating facts.
I just wish he had said something like “a lot of beneficiaries” rather than “Maori”.
Using Maori tends to imply that ALL Maori feel that way.
Beneficiaries probably do feel that way if dealing with WINZ is anything like as bad as people say.
I had sympathy with Meteria when I first read this. Then I discovered that, although she has now got a very large income she has made no attempt to repay the money that she had defrauded.
There is an enormous difference between doing it when she couldn’t manage, or didn’t have the budgeting skills, to get by on what she had then and hanging on to it when you had become, by most peoples standards, very wealthy.
Māori do over represent in the lower socio-economic sphere.
It’s as bad as they say. The stress that comes from having to deal with them probably reduces peoples lives by years.
I don’t see that it makes any difference as it was the policies of the government that put her into a position that she had to lie. If any one should be paying it it should be the National Party. They should also be paying out for all that stress that they’ve caused with their physiologically damaging policies.
Well said Alwyn.
National has systematically depressed us all with their sinking lid economy called Austerity a word they refuse to use but carry it out thinking we don’t know it.
“I had sympathy with Meteria when I first read this.”
Why was that, alwyn? What did you see in her story that made you feel sympathy?
Sending that poor British fellow to the Australian penal colony for stealing a loaf of bread; was that you or one of yours that did that, Alwyn?
I presume there is something rattling around in your head to cause you to come out with this non sequitur.
I can’t see the relevance of it myself.
Are you related to this Guyton perchance?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/69446950/Shoppers-have-no-qualms-buying-Antarctic-toothfish
Nope. But I am closely related to this Guyton.
http://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/home-property/nz-gardener/72463136/Robert-Guyton-Why-you-should-go-organic-in-the-garden
That’s not fair. You have a sense of humour and are a gardener to boot. I shall be forced to be less judgemental than is my wont.
I now feel guilty for suggesting that you could be related to someone who appears to be anything but a good conservationist.
My impression is that your true guilt runs far deeper than that, Alwyn. Cleaving to the evil philosophy of capitalism and personal greed, with that hypocritical pretence of defending right against wrong whenever any new ideas question the system that favours the select (filthy) few…
Kind of you to say that, alwyn. I was quite appalled by the toothfish story, to be frank. The people of Nelson have not endeared themselves to me, one of their sons, by their behaviour at the fish shop.
And yet Key (who got rich with a long con using other people’s money) picked Bill DoubleDipton as his deputy?
It’s maybe preferable to a cabinet replete with smugglers, fraudsters, extortionists, blackmailers and thieves who never confess to anything no matter how blatant.
Are people really happy that, were Labour to lead a Government, they would happily include in Cabinet a self confessed and apparently unrepentant fraudster?
Well, you seem OK with having Bill English as Prime Minister, a position Turei may not even aspire to, so why would you think Labour voters would be different?
In any case, I prefer honesty. English hasn’t even confessed, just paid it back (some of it, at least) while pretending that what he did was within the rules. And Paula Bennett is being unusually careful in her choice of words to describe her own dealings with WINZ – give me people who’ll tell you the truth any day.
“give me people who’ll tell you the truth any day”.
Even if it takes 15 years to fess up?
I am inclined to accept the view that someone had leaked Turei’s history to Winston. She was simply trying the Donald Trump Jr approach of get it out yourself first. Didn’t really work for him. I don’t think it is going to work for Turei either.
I am personally of the view that 3 terms is enough for any Government. I happily voted for Helen Clark in 1999 and equally happily against her in 2008.
Unfortunately there is no alternative that exhibits any competence at all at the moment. To go with the shambles of a NZF/Labour and possibly Green coalition doesn’t really hold any appeal.
Labour should have stuck with Shearer. He displayed a bit of amateurishness but he had actually had experience of doing real work. The Labour leaders have got worse and worse since he was stabbed by Brutus Cunliffe and then an even less competent Little was imposed on the Caucus by the Union movement.
Perhaps after the election they will get Grant as leader. He does waffle a bit, and he is totally unsuitable as a Finance spokesman but he at least shows some signs of being a possible competent PM.
“I am inclined to accept the view that someone had leaked Turei’s history to Winston. ”
Then your inclinations are toward making tenuous links and accepting rumour without much application of thought, not especially sturdy blocks on which to build political opinion.
I think Maori will feel affinity with Metiria because she is Maori, exhibits a respect for Maoritanga and for the many Maori people who are poor and who feel they have been treated poorly by the Government.
“..imposed on Caucus by the Union movement.” Dream on…
Have you done an assessment yet? It might turn out to be ‘pretty legal’.
John key’s principles are about having power, status and control. that’s why he wouldn’t go with NZF in his first term.
Key may well try to stay within the law, but ethics are a foreign country to him.
Better than $25 some time never … like next April …. who did that?
Labour’s approach or the Green’s approach? Which do you prefer?
I love both!!
Good read and well worth thinking about
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jul/17/neoliberalism-has-conned-us-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals
Marty Mars
thanks for that heads up – puts clear words to the confused mass of consciousness that circle round us like bacteria, infecting and alerting our immune systems to a Babylon of blandishment, bribes, ballyhoo and ultimately brutal effect.
++ 1 from me too. Great read and consolidates the core ideas tightly.
Time to get
Real
https://video.scroll.in/843194/watch-a-crowd-of-65000-sings-bohemian-rhapsody-perfectly-while-waiting-for-a-green-day-concert
I’ve decided to party vote green – gonna be a green day after a bit of rhapsody first.
Cheers marty,
I was involved in a ‘survival camp’s with some scouts on top of the tararua.
We were sorely tested, gale force wind driven rain, and the scouts in bivoaucs they had built.
At 3am we found ourselves, a mass choir of 14, singing bohemian rhapsody.
A highlight referred to by the youth years after the event.
That was very cool thanks
A review of the New Zealand First conference from the weekend:
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/18-07-2017/what-really-makes-nz-first-tick-i-joined-the-party-and-headed-to-their-jamboree-to-find-out/
It is revealing. The party sounds it’s full of disaffected Labour supporters keen to create a second Labour Party, but Winston Peters is classical National – a conservative authoritarian who favours government intervention in the economy for conservative authoritarian reasons (ie, he shares Muldoon’s view that the government can just order the economy to behave as the government would like).
The party members are deluding themselves. After the election, Winston will form a government with whichever party Winston wants to form a government with, and that party’s very unlikely to be a combination of the Labour and Green parties. All these remits the party have passed are irrelevant to that process.
Yep. This bit,
Peters told the audience he wouldn’t let New Zealand be dictated by “foreign ideologies and foreign economics”.
Straight out the window if he goes with National.
The polling evidence (NZ Election Study … Colmar Brunton vote switching and so on) suggests former Labour supporters comprised the lion’s share of NZF’s 2011 & 2014 voter-base and that a majority of NZFers prefer a Labour-led Government.
Winnie’s already won over a segment of the more morally-conservative Left & might just continue making in-roads 2017
Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions, study says
A relatively small number of fossil fuel producers and their investors could hold the key to tackling climate change
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change
100 companies responsible for 71% of the global emissions!!!!
why didn’t they put that over the corporate MSM?
Oh silly me they own the media too right?
Neoliberalism has conned us into fighting climate change as individuals
Stop obsessing with how personally green you live – and start collectively taking on corporate power
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jul/17/neoliberalism-has-conned-us-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals
MISTER Trotter!
“METIRIA TUREI has rescued the 2017 General Election from the timidity and moral squalor into which it was fast descending. In a speech that brought tears to her listeners’ eyes and cheers to their throats, the Greens’ co-leader carried her party out of the shadows of moderation and into the bright sunlit uplands of radicalism that have always been its natural habitat. The Green Party’s AGM of 15-16 July 2017 will go down in history as the moment when it repudiated the “Insider’s” devilish bargains – and reclaimed its soul.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/07/the-bright-sunlit-uplands-of-radicalism.html
Disagree all she has done is move the deck chairs amoung the left, and thrown more votes to peters, some here have a vain hope she has appealed to the missing million ie increasing the left pie As the last 9 years has shown this is very unlikely, labour need to grab national swing voters of which they are totally incapable of doing and are hamstrung in strategic no mans land appealing to no body but hard core loyalists
“Disagree” – really! That’s not like you, Red, you’re usually so accommodating of the views expressed here. You are also usually wrong, so I guess at least you are being consistent and you are quite wrong about this issue: I feel your thinking lacks flexibility, where Metiria’s represents the state. Loosen up a little, Red, un-clasp and relax your crabbed grip on your stale old ways. Plus, sweeten yourself up a drop before venturing out in public. You leave a sour taste.
+1 very eloquent
Stale sweat with an acidic whiff- most unpleasant. Better wash your singlet, shirt, socks and especially your underpants Red.
Thanks for the feedback Robbo and greywhateva I am glad you are both taking notice and an avid consumer of my posts, if only a small bit sinks in my job is done
yours truly 😀
Game changer from Morgan and the Opportunities Party, free $200 a week for all 18 – 23 year olds. If I was in that age group I know who I would be voting for.
That goes alongside their other policy of $200 a week for families with a child under 3.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11892084
I get it that Morgan’s abrasive presentation and economic framing don’t appeal to many here. That’s fine I’m 100% supportive of them continuing to vote Lab/Grn as they wish. But at the moment it’s TOP that is making all the interesting and radical running.
I think its good policy and puts TOP in the box seat to capture the youth. $200 a week for kids leaving school, a lot of which aren’t that sure what they want to do career wise. Gives them 5 years of some security, explore what they want to do, relieves pressure off them at a critical stage. All round good for society.
And means testing elderly people as well as cutting parts of Super.
Is the youth UBI on top of welfare or instead of? Can’t see the detail on their website, and IME once you start scratching the surface of TOP policy, there are problems underneath.
From the TOP policy page:
http://www.top.org.nz/top7
In other words if Super is your only income at present, I read this as meaning you will continue to be ‘topped up’ to your current levels. No change, no-one worse off.
If you receive other income then this will likely abate your ‘top up’ down to the level of the UBI. Seems fair.
Note also the current policy also abates Super at a rate of 70% down to a minimum of about $100 pw. So on the face of it TOP’s policy is more generous.
Youth UBI details here:
http://www.top.org.nz/top11
The idea is to cut super from the richest who don’t need it, there has been no talk of cutting essential super.
I would also hope this initial UBI doesn’t replace the benefit, both are needed. But when Morgan was talking about a UBI across the board a couple of years ago the idea was to replace benefits with it.
If they’re so rich they don’t need it, they’d probably be paying it back on higher tax rates anyway (or have well-subsidised many others over their careers). They can always give it to charity if they feel guilty.
Automated tax returns are much simpler than signing up, declaring changed income, processing the changes, and auditing for discrepencies.
It’s a bit like in the early 2000’s when I was at a group meeting with the head of winz student services at the time – she outright said they had no idea whether universal student allowances would be cheaper to implement than the means-tested, application/updated circumstances regime we have.
It’s very attractive to say that things should be targeted, and that people who don’t need something shouldn’t automatically get it. But we should double-check to see if the nice idea is more trouble than it’s worth.
And that’s before we get into the “slippery-slope, who sets the abatement threshold” debate.
And if you have ‘other income’ above about $5000 pa then your current Super is rebated at 70% in the dollar anyway.
The horse on your ‘abatement rate setting’ has long bolted down a slippery slope.
has it? Bugger. That’s something to corral again…
RL, I’m pretty sure that abatement provision is limited to the rare situation where a person eligible for Super has a partner that is not eligible, but the partner has other income (overseas pensions are usually cited as the likely source of this other income).
For instance, I have a brother who has a Swiss partner. They are contemplating retiring to NZ. He will be eligible for Super, but she will not until she clocks up another seven years of residence. But her Swiss pension payments will be high enough that the abatement provisions would apply to his Super payments.
If someone is eligible for Super and an overseas pension, the Super is reduced dollar for dollar by the overseas pension. So my folks’ Super is actually mostly paid by their Social Security payments from the US.
But most ordinary Kiwi recipients of Super, the Super is just the same as any other income and taxed at the same rate. No special high abatement rates.
https://superlife.co.nz/understanding-nz-super
On the other hand this seems fairly clear cut:
https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/seniors/superannuation/other-income.html
The key qualifier in that link is:
“If you have a spouse or partner who doesn’t qualify for their own New Zealand Superannuation, you can choose to include them in your payments. If you do this, any other income either of you earn could affect how much you get.”
Fuck I hate govt gobbledegook.
It isn’t all overseas pensions. It is only those that are provided by another Government.
The really silly part is that they make you apply for any overseas pension for which you “might” be eligible. This includes Australia if you ever worked there. You have to fill in about 46 pages of bumpf.
You then apply, get turned down because you fail the asset test limit and you simply continue here as if you had never worked there.
The really nasty part is that if you qualify for even the tiniest amount of Australian super you are required to tell them of any change in your circumstances. Say you inherit $1,000 from a great-uncle. You have to tell them so that they can reduce the amount they pay over to the New Zealand Government. Your shares rise by $200. Same thing.
If you think that dealing with WINZ is tough you have clearly never had anything to do with the Ozzie equivalent.
Never had to deal with the Aussie Government except as a tourist. I’d never want to go work there. It’s not bad as a place, but it’s full of Australians.
On the other hand, living in the US meant some truly awesome tax return paperwork. My worst was one year I had the federal returns including the forms for capital gains on selling a house and 2 lots of moving expenses, plus state returns for Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and California, plus another lot of paperwork to reconcile US stuff with Mexican stuff coz I was working in a factory in Mexico owned by a US company. It all added up to a stack thicker than the old-school Auckland phonebook.
In general the idea in the long run seems to be an Universal Income set at relatively low level that everyone accesses. Whether you are in work or not. Initially available to youth, families with children and the elderly. The goal in the long run is to make it genuinely Universal
For those not in work, or retired, the UBI would be ‘topped up’ to current levels. So in essence it would ‘replace’ the first $200 or so of a benefit, without eliminating them completely.
Seems a flexible and fair approach to me. And the unconditional security of the UBI is way more attractive than the current capricious and precarious benefit system.
“The idea is to cut super from the richest who don’t need it, there has been no talk of cutting essential super.”
There is a lot of space between richest and essential. I think you will find that like with other social welfare, means testing and abatement is problematic for many reasons. I don’t want elderly people subjected to that.
“I would also hope this initial UBI doesn’t replace the benefit, both are needed. But when Morgan was talking about a UBI across the board a couple of years ago the idea was to replace benefits with it.”
yes, that’s right. Morgan wants to scrap social welfare entirely and replace it with an low rate economic UBI and personal responsibility. He’s clueless about what welfare is and what role it plays in society and how his policies would make many vulnerable people worse off. He doesn’t like welfare and wants to get rid of it. Welfare is critical to society, a UBI can’t replace that. We need both.
Super ALREADY is abated from anyone with income over $5kpa at a rate of 70%. The idea that Super is currently not subject to ‘means testing’ or ‘abatement’ is just wrong.
And if you want to quibble the difference between ‘means testing’ and ‘abatement’ then be my guest.
Morgan wants to scrap social welfare entirely and replace it with an low rate economic UBI and personal responsibility
You were wrong about TOP policy making elderly people worse off, so now you shift the goal-posts.
Welfare is critical to society, a UBI can’t replace that.
Why not? In the short term it makes sense to have both; but in the long run if the UBI was proven successful it could easily replace targeted welfare.
TOP wants to tax the assets of elderly people. It wants them to hoop jump. It wants to reduce some of their income. I think there are better ways of managing all those things.
I’m not shifting the goal posts, mauī was talking about a UBI replacing benefits, I responded with the problems with that. I’ve always pointed to one of the major issues with Morgan’s UBI is that it fails to take into account that welfare is a crucial part of any caring society.
“Why not? In the short term it makes sense to have both; but in the long run if the UBI was proven successful it could easily replace targeted welfare.”
‘Targeted welfare’ isn’t the same as social welfare. Social welfare is the state’s fundamental position that people deserve to be looked after. Targeted welfare is the extreme bastardisation that comes about when neoliberals don’t have enough power to remove it completely.
As you well know, Morgan’s UBI fails to provide for the most vulnerable. He sets the UBI at a rate that’s not liveable, and he bases that on the idea that everyone can work. He seeks to remove income from people that can’t work. He’s reasonably honest about the removable of the safety net and that this needs to be replaced with personal responsibility. He has some vague ideas about how the non-working poor can manage and be supported but nothing that’s even close to credible policy. He also acknowledges that some people will do it tough. All of that is unacceptable and unnecessary. There are far better ways to design a UBI.
TOP wants to tax the assets of elderly people. It wants them to hoop jump. It wants to reduce some of their income.
Wrong. ALL assets would be taxed, not just the elderly. The only people who are significantly affected are ‘asset rich/cash poor’ who can postpone the liability and pay it from their estate. This really isn’t much different to an estate tax in some ways, and not too far removed from the same system which will recover rest home care costs.
Absolutely it does not reduce their income one cent. Wrong again.
Targeted welfare is the extreme bastardisation that comes about when neoliberals don’t have enough power to remove it completely.
Wrong again. ALL welfare that has some pre-requisite condition to qualify for it, like being unemployed or disabled is by definition ‘targeted’. And with that brings with it a host of toxic problems that you posted about just yesterday.
By contrast a UBI is ultimately intended to be unconditional. It has to be the ultimate, broadest expression of the idea that everyone deserves to be looked after.
yep,
that is what they don’t talk about.
Gareth Morgan and his paid for vanity party want to means test elderlies for super.
So your nana has a wee house, worth all about 35thousands on a plot of leased land, but hey she can sell the house and live of that before getting super. Cause she and the likes liker her will be the only ones suffering from the ‘its not fair i get super ‘ policies. Gareth Morgan, has enough houses and enough money to pay an accountant to make sure he will not have enough ‘income’ and receive super in full.
Super, like unemployment benefits and the dole are -prepaid- services. We are paying taxes to raise funds that can be distributed among those that have lost their jobs – unemployment, or that are too old for working – super annuition. These programs are not charity, they are not a hand out. Working people paid for these programs via their taxes. But then, Gareth does know nothing about paying taxes, Gareth knows about paying accountants to help him avoid taxes.
Suckers are born every day.
Care to back up any of this bullshit with references?
Funny how plans like Morgans just make for a more bloated and ineffective managerial class to manage these vanity projects.
Nah you’ve lost me there. Right now the single most ‘bloated and ineffective managerial’ cockup in the country is WINZ. And Morgan proposes in the long run to close it down.
Nor can the idea of a UBI that has been around for at least 500 years, and is being explored in many countries, be scarcely described as a ‘vanity project’.
http://basicincome.org/basic-income/history/
i call his party a Vanity Project, or maybe its just a tax write of?
Do you think a UBI is just Gareth Morgan’s ‘vanity project’, ‘tax write off’; or does it have a respectable 500+ year history you just don’t want to know about?
Morgan doesn’t own the UBI concept. People are objecting to Morgan’s ideas and TOP’s policies.
That’s OK … I just object to your ongoing misrepresentation of them.
Morgan possibly first to make UBI a reality in NZ. That’s a good thing, you could call him a pioneer.
Morgan is in zero position to make a UBI reality in NZ. That will be Labour and the Greens who both already want to do this. I will be working hard to make sure they use a model that is designed around wellbeing not economics. Easy with the Greens, more of a challenge with Labour.
There are other non-govt people working in UBI in NZ. You might want to ask yourself why Morgan is seen as the pioneer and they’re not.
A UBI is also fundamentally an economic tool. Designing one without reference to economics is like designing a sailboat without reference to the sea.
Of course Morgan doesn’t own the concept; but after decades of the idea being firmly stuck in obscurity, he’s given it the oxygen it desperately needed. At least in NZ.
Of course I’m happy to debate the merits of TOP policy detail; nothing is ever perfect on the first attempt … but misrepresenting it leads to ill-formed debate.
I haven’t said design it without reference to economics. You’re really not paying attention to what I am actually saying here Red.
@weka
On the contrary I am listening very closely. You should know me better by now. 🙂
Consider this … you know I have never had a bad word for the Greens, that I have voted for them the past 4 elections at least and they carry a very fond spot in my heart.
My partner and I had the privilege of attending Rod Donald’s memorial service at Parliament and we both wept along with everyone else. It’s a vivid memory.
So when I say that I strongly identify with the spiritual and moral foundations of the Greens, with their community and people based vision … please I ask you to accept this at face value.
Now at the same time though I ask you to accept that I ALSO believe that we cannot minimise the economic dimension. That the gross inequality of wealth, the class warfare that grinds so many people into submission and despair, has it’s roots deeply embedded in bad economics. Now while Steve Keen is probably an economist closer to my tastes than Gareth Morgan, TOP is nonetheless presenting policy that goes a long way in a direction I like.
And emphatically there is no particular reason why these two visions should be mutually exclusive. While I fully accept the Greens and TOP frame their ideas and visions differently, I see far more potential common ground than conflict. I’d go one step further, the Greens may well have more underlying purpose and vision in common with TOP than they do with Labour.
Are you living under a rock? Seriously the whole managerial class in this country from the public sector to the private is a joke in this country. I’m guessing you don’t have to deal with many government departments or their managers. Nor have much experience with the private sector their Redlogix, please prove me wrong. I’m seeing you single out work and income (it ‘ant been winz since the disaster in beige with bangle earrings) shows a level of ignorance, or a desire to push a certain agenda.
Ok so which rock was I under here?
Worked mostly in the private sector and some in the public over 40 years now. But my agenda around WINZ does indeed come from direct family experience …
But I do struggle to see how we can pin the blame for all this on Gareth Morgan.
No, but he is part of the problem.
Or it’s just another Muppet polishing the same turd.
Look we agree work and income sucks, the left hand does not know what the right is doing in that place.
My issue is that top is just more of the same liberalism crap. And yeah I don’t see the point discussing it. Capitalism is a cancer.
I think you are making the common mistake of thinking that all economic activity is definition ‘capitalism’.
In any conceivable system I can think of money will remain a feature, and the using money to invest in future productivity will also remain an enduring feature. Thus all reasonable alternatives will have some aspect of capitalism.
Indeed you hit on an interesting metaphor; cancer is the normal and vital process of cell growth and replacement gone rogue. What you object to is not ‘capitalism’ per se, but the unregulated, out of control version of it we have come to know as ‘neo-liberalism’.
And I’d argue if you read TOP policy with an open mind you see Morgan harnessing normal economic mechanisms to regulate and moderate capitalism into a form that serves all people equitably, rather than the privileged few who’ve captured it for their own benefit.
True.
Not necessarily.
The defining part about capitalism is private ownership and that’s not needed to run a business. Make the business self-owned and run by the people who work there. Neither capitalism nor communism but still a market system.
The problem with that idea is that it can’t actually work. We see, as per Piketty’s work, that ownership always results in a few people having control of the resources of a nation resulting in the inevitable collapse of that nation.
Capitalism doesn’t work and never has done. Time to try something new. Something that ensures that no one is in poverty, rewards people for their work and doesn’t reward people for owning stuff.
@DtB
Not going to argue with you in principle … but hell it’s like herding cats to get people on board with a baby steps UBI much less the utter transformation you’re describing here.
Actually Redlogix I’m a Christian Anarchist who opposes capitalism in all it’s forms, and it’s why I used the words liberalism and capitalism. I’m no wet. And I think people who support capitalism in any form are the enemy.
So it’s not about an open mind. It’s about politics, or more specifically – political economy.
So capitalism is a cancer, which has held back humanity, and worse is actually making the biosphere we live in uninhabitable for future generations.
So yeah, nah. Like I said, top is another liberal party – shining a turd.
@adam
Oh good luck to you then. Which ‘Christian Anarchist’ party are you going to vote for again?
Because from where I’m sitting I really don’t see any party of significance who have a detailed policy position around dismantling the entire economic system and replacing it with something completely novel, untried and untested.
Because while I agree with you that unconstrained capitalism is a disaster; this does not automatically mean that any random alternative you can dream up will automatically turn out to be better.
So for you following the same thing that produces the same dire results, no matter how many angles people try, is perfectly logical?
Seriously how many times has capitalism got to be reformed until we try somthing new? Socialism works if it is not authoritarian, just the people with money use violence to make sure that it appears not to work. A good example is Venezuela, not the basket case the press would like you to believe. Rojava is doing well. So are some other socialist countries in South America.
As for the whole party thing, you might want to try some reading to help you with that fetish. You know, in the past the same fetish was what prince did you bend your head too, or support, if you were wealthy enough.
@adam
So your argument is that Morgan is nowhere near radical enough, yet you cannot name anyone who might tick enough of your boxes to vote for.
Unless of course you get off your arse and start your own political party. But wait …damn.
I dunno maybe you should keep typing.
T Draco T B.
You say
“The defining part about capitalism is private ownership and that’s not needed to run a business. Make the business self-owned and run by the people who work there”.
What on earth do you mean by “self-owned”. The only possible interpretation is that it is owned by the people who work there. That is still private ownership.
The only alternative ownership is being owned by the state.
There is a legal fiction that a business is a person but it is still only a fiction. A business can’t go to jail. It can’t pay a fine. It can’t be punished. It can’t make decisions. Only the people who work there or the owners can do those things.
He’s clarified that a yearly property/estate tax would be paid at the end of someone’s life so elderly people aren’t having to re-mortgage homes and sell up when they are asset rich but cash poor.
He also says in his speeches he doesn’t want a cent of his and his wife’s $40,000+ a year in super because they don’t need it. That is slightly different to what you’re saying which is that he will screw the system to gain as much wealth out of it as possible.
The idea of an asset tax is an extremely important one to restore equity to our tax system. New Zealanders have for so long gotten away without much in the way of capital or estate taxes that we struggle to get our heads around this.
Maui, feel free to vote for him.
but there is not a word or thing or newspaper article or other that you could utter that would make this man palatable to me. I consider him the NZ answer to Trump.
Most elders that i know, are neither asset rich nor cash rich. They, own a property – some with small mortgages on them – and they manage on their super or still work at 70. the very small subset of filthy rich ‘elders’ would be voting for National.
But i agree with Gareth Morgan, he should not be receiving super, as he is not paying income taxes or any taxes as he so proudly keeps proclaiming. Or as he said to me, Wage slaves should be revolting.
TOP is Act in a different colour.
but there is not a word or thing or newspaper article or other that you could utter that would make this man palatable to me.
In other words facts are irrelevant to how you form an opinion. Good oh.
nope.
i have followed him, had conversation with him on FB and i have come to the conclusion that he is a major fuckwit. An entitled, vain, prickish type of fuck wit.
and i have read his positions and i am old enough to know what happens to poor people when rich people come and say i have a solution that will make you money 🙂 Nothing will happen, cause Gareth Morgan can only be rich by screwing over people to give up their money, their assets and what ever else they have that might be worth a penny.
now, if he were to put his ‘untaxed’ income to where his fat mouth is, now we could be talking.
But he ain’t helping poor people, he ain’t providing shelter for homeless people, he ain’t writing cheques to have homes build, he is not supporting some trap/neuter groups that want to control the feral cats of NZ. Nah, he wants to means test you, so that he won’t be getting super . Chutzpah by any other word.
go vote for him. but me, i’ll vote for Labour/Greens. thanks.
“An entitled, vain, prickish type of fuck wit”.
Couldn’t agree more with this description of Gareth Morgan.
And I was told The Standard had to clean up it’s act, cut out the abuse and personal attacks so that more women would feel comfortable commenting here.
Oh well.
I think we are extremely lucky to have Gareth Morgan in New Zealand.
Plenty on this site have talked about forming a new political party.
He has the courage to do it. He will fail this time, but that’s not the point.
The first point is he thinks. And writes policy.
The second point is he’s organized and funded. On his own terms. He’s a mensch.
The third point for me at least, is that he sounds like the Labour Party, if it only had a brain.
We need a lot more Gareth Morgans in this country. We would all be the better for it.
@ Ad
Yes … a realistic appraisal is that TOP won’t get over 5%. But neither is it impossible.
I’m a dreamer, but one that realism has pounded more than a few dents into. But recent political events have proved the pundits don’t have a monopoly on foresight.
Well if you want some facts, Gareth Morgan’s wealth arose when TradeMe was sold to Fairfax. Feel free to explain how that was a ‘screwing over people to give up their money’.
And also more facts:
https://www.unicef.org.nz/news/2016/october-2016/gareth-morgan-investing-in-timor-leste-pre-schools
And if you engaged Morgan on FB the way you do here, I’m not surprised he gave you the bums rush.
Don’t forget the reason he was able to pump a fair bit of dosh into TradeMe was Infometrics. Then there was Gareth Morgan Investments as well.
Gareth Morgan and i we both speak as we think. I don’t like Gareth Morgan because he is an epic fuckwit, with no social conscience.
He wants to ride on our roads, but he does not want to pay to pave them. That is why i don’t like him ,and i have told him as such. Biker to biker you know. I consider Gareth Morgan and the likes like him parasites on society. They use up resources and they pay not for upkeep or maintenance and in order to extract another penny or two they would kill the host if need be.
https://www.unicef.org.nz/timor-leste
So this is your idea of a man (and his partner) who has no social conscience?
gareth and sam have done an environmentally intrusive subdivision development at the mouth of rhe cardrona valley near wanaka….went to the high court to overturn an environment court decision in the process….he will never be getting my vote
Citation?
Do you mean this?
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown-lakes/station-development-plans-back-hearing-table
So ‘less than minor’ adverse visual effects trumps transforming the lives of children in Timor. And other projects I could link to going back at least 15 years.
https://www.jasmine.org.nz/
Righto.
I doesn’t really seem to be worthwhile to do such things in New Zealand.
Look at Mr Mark Dunajtschik. He is giving $50 million for a new Children’s Hospital.
About 90% of the comments on here were abusive to him.
As I recall it, most of the commenters were of the view that we shouldn’t be in a position of relying on the charity of the wealthy to fund children’s hospitals. It’s beyond me how anyone could argue against that view.
And if you asked Mr Dunajtschik he’d likely tender much the same view himself.
Apparently that’s being abusive to rich people /sarc
I also like that Alwyn brings up a guy about which most people know two things (he’s rich, and he did a really nice thing for kids) to compare with Morgan, who’s beliefs and attitudes are pretty prominent.
I dunno anything about Dunajtschik. Morgan strikes me as being a bit of a dick.
@ McFlock
Yes he is an unreasonable man at times. But if you want things changing you know who to employ.
Oh and I’ve linked above to a UNICEF program the Morgan Foundation is supporting … that really does ‘nice things for kids’ in Timor.
But in most people’s eyes here that makes Gareth and Jo total arseholes apparently.
No, that doesn’t make them arseholes.
It makes them complicated.
Oh, and the idea that you need a dickhead to get stuff done is a failure of imagination.
“As I recall it, most of the commenters …….”
Oh sure. How about these ones as examples of my point
If that isn’t attacking him because he is wealthy, and generous, I don’t know what is.
@McFlock
Last few years I’ve been working for a man who’s built a highly innovative and energetic company from almost nothing to over 160 employees with a global presence.
I’m certain you’d label him a ‘dickhead’ as well … but hell he got things done few other people did. I do get that this isn’t the only possible leadership model, but in my experience people who successfully turn big dreams into big results, have charged their way through endless naysayers and challenges to get there.
They really tend not to tolerate fools well. If you want to label this ‘dickhead’ then be my guest … but I’d call you out on a certain failure of imagination too.
And Psycho Mil – what’s the bet when the hospital is opened with the ribbon to be cut and all the MP’s in creation there it will be the PM (whoever he/she is) beaming and trying to hog the cudos trying to cut the ribbon. I am like you – ashamed that we have to rely on charity to build a kid’s hospital. People pay taxes so that great and good things for the greater good are created – but it seems that we are not doing the job and charity has to pick up the tab. Disgraceful.
I mean this in a kindly way, but there should be an extension to Godwin’s law. Instead of just automatically invalidating your argument by mentioning Hitler, it would be comparing any politician to Trump for no particular reason, other than the go to bad dude.
To his credit, Gareth Morgan has actual policies he appears to believe in and have thought about.
He has started some conversations around housing and education.
He also presents a good alternative for young smarty pants urban professionals who could so easily be pulled to the dark side of National.
Really, Gareth has far more in common with Hillary et al.
TOP is a vanity party, and NZ First is a vanity party. Trump was/is a vanity candidate. Neither of them will do good to anyone but them in the short and long term.
see my post above
“as he is not paying income taxes or any taxes”.
He hasn’t said anything like that. The most he has claimed is that he pays a lower percentage of his income in taxes than people with much lower incomes.
If he spends anything at all in New Zealand he is certainly going to have to pay GST.
The New Zealand GST system is one of the best planned taxes there is. It is almost impossible to avoid without reducing your expenditure to nothing. It is a superbly designed, and very simple system.
he has screwed the system so far, up until now, and will in the future so as to extract as much wealth for him as possible. That is why he is currently not paying taxes, but you do. 🙂
“He’s clarified that a yearly property/estate tax would be paid at the end of someone’s life so elderly people aren’t having to re-mortgage homes and sell up when they are asset rich but cash poor.”
Or when they move into a smaller home, or a rest home? Sorry, but I think generic taxing of non-wealthy elderly in this way is unethical and problematic. Put a CGT on assets that aren’t the family home. Tax high income earners. Tax corporations. Put in a Financial Transaction Tax. Tax polluters. Lots of things that can be done without going first for poor people.
@ WEKA Put a CGT on assets that aren’t the family home. Tax high income earners. Tax corporations. Put in a Financial Transaction Tax. Tax polluters. Lots of things that can be done without going first for poor people.
thank you for stating it so much better then me.
he is not proposing a single tax on him. He is proposing to means tests us, so that he and his can’t get super. Let him and his wife have super, and tax the hilt out of them.
“he is not proposing a single tax on him. He is proposing to means tests us, so that he and his can’t get super. Let him and his wife have super, and tax the hilt out of them.”
This too.
The weird thing is, I learnt about taxing higher incomes earners in order to fund a UBI from Red Logix. But that’s not what Morgan is doing exactly. He has a philosophical/ideological approach around tax, and thus fails to design well for poor people. He can tack on all the addendums he likes, but it’s still blatantly obvious that while he has some good ideas his starting points are wrong. We shouldn’t have economists designing society.
Any scheme that applies a CGT but excludes the family home, and means tests the Super but excludes the family home will be like the system they have in Australia. It is a disaster.
Basically you are stupid to retire with assets, excluding the family home, that are more than $400,000 and less than about $1,500,000.
You will lose part of your Super on any amount greater than $400k and lose the lot if you have more than $800k. It will take you the $1.5m to get an income equal to what you would get with a complete Super payment and $400k savings.
If you reach 65 with, say, $800k the best thing is to spend the extra $400k on either getting a new house, expanding your existing house or going on a long, luxurious, world trip.
That is precisely what many Australians do. They are being completely rational to do so.
He is not proposing to means test the UBI. It will mean exactly what it says.
Gareth isn’t forced to collect Super. You have to apply for it and if you don’t apply you don’t get it.
Bob Jones doesn’t get it you know. He says he doesn’t need it and he never asked for it. Pity some of our richer ex-politicians like Jim Anderton never followed his example.
Put a CGT on the family home too. But include a rollover provision for the family home. A family home exemption gets really messy, I’ve seen that in the US.
What I mean by rollover is: say a family buys a home for $500k, then a few years later sells it for $1M to buy a new home for $1.3M. Without a rollover, they would be liable for CGT on the $1/2M capital gain. With a rollover, they pay no CGT now, but the cost basis of their new home is the $500k they paid for their old home plus the extra $300k for the upgrade, for a total of $800k. So if they had to immediately turn around and sell the new home for $1.25M (say coz they were transferred overseas), they would pay CGT on $450k capital gain ($1250K sales price less $800K cost basis). That explanation ignores the reasonable deductions that should be included in a CGT, like selling expenses, cost of capital improvements etc.
If an elder person has just sold their home for $300,000 or say $500,000 and they’ve been living rent free for a number years and earn over $300 a week in super I would count them as well off.
I can’t see why a good slice of estate tax can come off that sale. It seems quite similar to a capital gains tax in that sense.
It treats homes as investment assets, which underpins the whole housing crisis. Home simply shouldn’t be taxed that way. If someone is buying houses and selling them to make money, sure tax the sales. But taking a % of wealth off low income people is not a good way to approach social security.
We shouldn’t be going after the generic elderly and treating them as if they are like younger people. I hope I don’t have to explain the rationale behind that.
Homes shouldn’t be treated as financial instruments, right up until the moment they become purely a financial instrument. That moment happens at settlement of the sale.
Exactly … and if it’s estate sale, then I’m sure the erstwhile owner isn’t all that fussed anymore.
Of course their potential beneficiaries may well be, and I do get the sense this is the real issue here.
but how would rich people get richer.
surely not by taking money from rich people to give to the poor.
no its poor people paying taxes on their ‘assets’ so that people like Gareth Morgan don’t have too.
The principle idea is to tax wealthy assets and redistribute that money into tax cuts for low income earners. Again it’s hard to see how Gareth does well out of that.
that is not was Mr. Morgan is proposing innit?
Exactly. weka is projecting a pretty weird idea of ‘poor’ here.
Keep in mind that many might be living in homes worth the thick end of $1m and may have a number of ways to turn some of that asset into cash during their lifetimes.
So design a policy that is fair then. It’s not that hard.
Replace the loaded word ‘fair’ with ‘equitable’.
There are two kinds of equity you can think of; vertical equity which means treating small and large instances the same. In brief this is one of the simple outcomes of flat taxes and a UBI, the outcome is progressive but whether you are a paper boy earning your first dollar, or a CEO on millions … you are being treated exactly the same by the tax system. That’s one sense of fair.
Horizontal equity means that all income whether in cash or in kind regardless of source is treated the same. The huge issue for NZ is that we have been privileging housing and property over cash income for a very long time. This is why our economy is now so grossly distorted.
The best taxes are small, simple and universal. This means there is no incentive or opportunity to evade or work around misdirecting investment for tax reasons rather than productive ones.
While it’s reasonable to quibble the exact structure and details of TOP’s proposed Asset tax, the fundamental idea of it is sound.
On the contrary, it’s the fundamentals I have a problem with. They don’t get welfare or its value and hence they’ve designed policy around economics. That serves economies. I want the people to be served.
Yet the odd thing is that the most common objection I hear from people when I first mention UBI, is along the lines “It makes beneficiaries of everyone!” … as if that were a very bad thing.
Frankly I struggle to understand this big distinction is that you are making between say $200pw income from a welfare benefit and $200pw income from a UBI.
Except that the former is something you had to line up, fill out paperwork and grovel for … while the latter is by right and unconditional.
Of course in the short term introducing a UBI to fully replace Welfare isn’t reasonable. Never said it was and that is clearly not TOP policy. The initial proposal is to make it available to youth, families with young children and the elderly and combine it with existing Welfare.
In the longer term if the UBI was successful and demonstrated the positive outcomes I believe it could have, then an expanded UBI could become truly Universal for everyone. But even then I doubt it would ever fully replace targeted welfare.
Reshaping an economy so that it works to serve people in the way you have in mind, would be a gradual transition. It could take a generation or more. The idea of slam-bam shock policy died with Roger Douglas.
I’m supportive of a UBI if it’s designed around wellbeing. That’s not what Morgan is doing. He’s designing from an economic perspective and adding in the nice social bits as he goes. This is why The Big Kahuna fails to address the topup issue meaningfully and leaves it as a side bar to sort out later. That’s dangerous.
I don’t know anyone that can live on $200/wk. I’m sure there are some people, but they’re generally people that have other resources e.g. no rent.
You seem to think welfare is about a sum of money. It’s not, it’s about caring for people when they need it. Morgan is pretty clear he wants people to be personally responsible and for the state to radically lessen support. So bad luck if you can’t manage on what Morgan deems sufficient or in ways that Morgan deems as reasonable or normal.
Considering that there’s really only one way to do it it’d take five minutes.
1. Stop banks from creating money
2. Implement a UBI and government spending as the only way money enters the economy
Done. You really can’t do it any other way because all other ways require looking for ways to pay for the UBI which can’t be done. This way the UBI pays for the economy and we end up with an economy that’s stable and works for everyone.
Of course no-one is expected to live on $200pa.
If you have no other income and you qualify for welfare, TOP policy has clearly evolved to a position where your income would be the unconditional UBI plus a conditional top up welfare benefit to at least current levels.
The Big Kahuna was published some years ago now; the issue of ‘top ups’ has now been addressed in detail. How ‘dangerous’ was that?
You seem to think welfare is about a sum of money. It’s not, it’s about caring for people when they need it.
Yet whenever we’ve discussed this in the past this is EXACTLY what you brought it back to … how to bridge the gap between the UBI and current benefits. Now it’s clear the welfare top up mechanism would fill that gap just fine, you move the goal-posts again to demanding that state needs to be ‘caring’ as well.
If your idea of state ‘care’ is the status quo welfare system; well you have me stumped.
Morgan is pretty clear he wants people to be personally responsible and for the state to radically lessen support
IF at UBI with it’s myriad of benefits really did transform society in the way many people hope, and that people really did find it much easier to find ways to support themselves in ways that suited them and fulfilled their dreams in life … why would this be such a bad thing?
If a UBI really did eliminate the poverty trap, toxic dependency, reduce the number of people who needed support, what exactly are you objecting to here?
Why represent this as binary choice between ‘collective caring’ OR ‘personal responsibility’ … when surely a blend of the strengths of both might be an ideal worth thinking about?
@ DtB
Love ya mate 🙂
You always make me feel so conservative. But on this I largely agree with you. Creating credit is a necessary economic function and using the UBI to generate a large fraction of it, instead of the allowing the banks to have a monopoly as they do now, is a very interesting idea.
But as always principle and pragmatism should never try to gatecrash the same party. Ends in tears.
If you have no other income and you qualify for welfare, TOP policy has clearly evolved to a position where your income would be the unconditional UBI plus a conditional top up welfare benefit to at least current levels.
The Big Kahuna was published some years ago now; the issue of ‘top ups’ has now been addressed in detail. How ‘dangerous’ was that?
Really? Because as far as I can tell the TOP ‘UBI’ currently is on top of existing benefits. Are you suggesting this is the plan for a full UBI eventually?
What’s the ‘conditional topup’?
I’ve not seen anything credible from TOP on supplementary benefits.
As for the rest of your comment, you appear to be arguing with me as if I’m against a UBI. I’ve said multiple times that I’m supportive of a UBI but that I think Morgan’s one is seriously lacking. When you start hearing what I am actually saying and engaging with that I’ll reciprocate.
actually people might be living in an asset worth of a million if they find a buyer who will give them a million dollar. Until then the house is only ever worth what someone pays for it, and that might be nought.
where i bought my house the average price for house without land is around 60.000$ The land then comes in at another 50.000 or so, so the average house / land here sells around 80 .000 – 120.000 . These people surely are rolling in cash. Lets means test them, lest they get to much right?
but I agree, Mr. Morgan should be paying taxes as he has several million dollar properties that – as per his own saying – he keeps empty and thus not profitable to ‘protect the carpet’ from the tenants. He should be paying a lot of taxes on his empty investment properties until it becomes so unprofitable for him to have these properties empty that he either sells them for someone to live in or rents them for someone to live in.
I side with Sabine. Morgan screwed the dirty system to the max when he was young and greedy, then, after making enough money, went into semi-retirement, travelled around a bit, and began to gain a glimmer of social understanding. Now he masquerades (even if he believes in his own myths) as a philanthropic worker for the social good. Like that American mogul Carnegie, he does good works that I think ring hollow.
I used to think that the ‘politics of envy’ was a right wing myth … but watching more than a few people here I’m beginning to think they may have been correct all along.
I am NOT envious of Morgan, nor of his fortune. Please don’t make me use capitals again.
And that’s the usual response too.
As you wish. But how old are you? I remember back in the 90s when Morgan was the clever smarty-pants expert being touted on TV as a great consultant on the value of the Dollar. He was part of the big neo-liberal mouthpiece. He needs to go a long way further to atone for all that, and he is nowhere near it so far. Maybe you are too young to understand this.
@ In Vino
Almost old enough for Super thank you. You remember a different Morgan to me; I recall someone who was always an outsider, all too prone to speaking his mind to ever be part of the big club.
But the 90’s are quite a long time back now; and people do change. I know I have a lot, and I’d hazard a guess you have too.
Hell I once even voted ACT. Have I done enough to atone for it by now do you think?
@RedLogix
lol – nobody can atone for that!
I am already on Super, but I guessed wrongly at you being young.
I remember people avidly following Roger Douglas with his flat tax ideas, thinking they were pushing left-wing policies having got rid of Muldoon. I sense a little of the same in Morgan, sad to say.
He became an outspoken outsider only after he had profited from the damaging policies he approved of, to my mind. But who knows? None of us is infallible. I have agreed with every post of yours I have seen up until now – and this is not a major thing.
Go for what we believe in, eh?
Instead of welfare, student allowances and living costs component of student loans.
Winnie’s cunning strategy to become PM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11891818
Little accuses Peters of leaking the internal UMR poll
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/07/andrew-little-accuses-winston-peters-of-leaking-poll-that-made-labour-look-bad.html
Do any parties have good policies on how it will make lots of New Zealanders have great careers and awesome salaries?
I see plenty of redistribution policies, but not a whole bunch on economic development.
Election campaign has only just started. You can see historical policy on parties’ websites.
well, 100k new homes must be good for somebody.
Labour’s been announcing portions of its (?$200mil I think?) regional development fund in each reagion little visits – Dunedin’s getting IT industry support, Gisborne will get a prefab housing factory (there’s the 100k homes methinks), dunno what else.
more cops and light rail for auckland, too. And working towards a living wage and better workplace rights, of course. 3 yrs free tertiary education.
I’m sure the Greens have some additional/even better policies, too. NZ1 will probably have some hefty regional development policies as well.
Yes labour will just legislate as such , easy
Any actual initiative on how to grow more high-paying jobs from any party would be great.
give labour 9 years in the beehive and they will FIFU
Hey beaded git,
The new government will need all of 9yrs to take out all the hidden hooks that national has left in the administration to trip the next lot up!!!
lol
They’re neck and neck as they come round the course but I think The Chairman is pulling to the front and is the WINNER for the most concerned troll of the morning. Will he keep up this pace during the day and emerge a champion tonight?
What a commenter, day after day, he keeps up the pace. He will be a hard man to beat and will wear his blue jersey with pride for the timebeing , and may receive his cobalt shade one in the BIG prizegiving day in September. But there are good contenders, yes they are giving him hot competition, and if their jaws don’t drop off or fingers wear out to their wrists, they’ll be close behind.
But watch this wonderful little performer for good value entertainment.
But will his body be able to sustain that frenetic level of activity? One snapped tendon, or one blister in the wrong place, and his keyboarding rate could plunge, causing a dramatic loss to all those who enjoy wringing their hands as they mull over the complexities and intricacies of those weighty problems that constantly plague the parties of the Left, but never the Right.
One can only hope…
lol
No mention of Johnny Key our humble home boy getting a top award from Oz for not causing their bedsheets to get rucked up by any thorny questions that meek little NZs want to raise. After all when all the big money is covered by Oz banks who would dare be tempted to annoy them.
Meanhile our brownies languish on islands that are not paradise (any whities there? If not sounds like discrimination to me.) Oz has long been the Dis-crimi-nation but I had hoped for better from NZ politicians. But hey, nice doggie John, give him a medal and a bone too, the best for you, an Honorary Companion in the Order of Australia. This is the highest Australian honour.
there is a sting in the tail here for the Nats ..while i always mistrusted the guy he did seem to have a way with some in the electorate…his resurrection with a medal so close to the election serves to show how crap English is
question please… i thought Todd Barclay was supposed to be back in parliament this week, or is it next week?
Also, interesting that Bill is taking a holiday down Dipton way, I wonder if he choose to go down south for damage control as well as a holiday.
Well in the meantime not even a possible slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket for him.
Politics
11:04 am today
IPCA won’t pursue Barclay investigation complaint
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/335307/ipca-won-t-pursue-barclay-investigation-complaint
That was the complaint to the Police Complaints Authority NZJ.
The Police may yet come to some conclusion as it has reopened the case.
Be ironic if the Police also close the case as this would McLay quit for no offence.
Thanks for the link and update Jest.
So the police handled the investigation in the correct manner according to the police watch dog, but the investigation is still ongoing.
Least that’s the conclusion I reached after reading the article
That’s good could now go after the real crooks like MeTo
Ha ha RED the crooks don’t blog they are busy stealing as crooks do.
He’s still not fronting up to media
He did make an appearance on the Twitter…
Where’s Todd Barclay?
Moving on from illegal taping,
the $100k hush money,
confidentiality agreement,
bill english lying to the public,
barclay continuing to be paid,
staff resignations
and media avoidance…
an extremely important question to be addressed (vital to the whole puzzle) is…
“What was on the tapes?”
Even Gunloving Rednecks in the US are starting to see through the lies of the neo-liberal establishment. I bet they will not get the lenient treatment handed out to Armed-Right-Wing groups who invade and occupy federal land etc.
Armed Left-Wing Group Wants To Stamp Out Fascism – The Young Turks – Published on Jul 17, 2017
Weekend warriors who like to play dress up and get off on guns, pathetic
But one can never be too careful because placards!.
sennammemment, stannagran, ridaberrams, bud.
These guys are saying they are willing to defend the US Constitution. Not just the first amendment that is the only thing a lot of right-wingers care about, but these guys are trying to protect the down trodden against these that seek to do them harm.
Capitalism is a cancer.
What’s is it with green MPs and honesty, two gone in the last week in oz suddenly rembering they had dual citizenship, one in nz deciding to be honest after 20 or so tears of been dishonest
What a terrible typo.
” after 20 or so tears of been dishonest”.
I didn’t see any tears at all. She was chortling with laughter about how she had got away with ripping off the taxpayer.
One of our parties managed to put up a list candidate who wasn’t actually a citizen at all I think it was NZF but I wouldn’t put money on it. I may be unfairly maligning them.
You’re thinking of Kelly Chal who was United Future Dunne in 2002 (?) if I recall correctly
Alwyn’s total misrepresentation of those alleged tears/chuckling represent merely his own wishful thinking. Quite a pattern emerging of that…
And will one of you sort out ‘been’ and ‘being’?
That’s all you got Vino,, again say after me 10 times “the whole world hates a corrector, I must do better” 😀
And write out 10 times, ‘That’s all you’ve got.’
‘That’s all you got’ means ‘That’s all you received’.
Don’t make yourself look sillier than you need to.
And the whole world does not hate a corrector – only those who need correction. Like you.
You must have had it tough at school Vino 😀
I shall take your word for it.
Your memory is clearly better than mine on the matter. I only remembered that it happened to some party at some election.
And, for any NZF supporter who may read this blog, I apologise for maligning you.
Tears of laughter after 20 years of taking the proverbial, oh I will pay it back if they can prove it beyond my carefully legally constructed confession for perceived political benefit
[RL: Two unsubstantiated smears. Lift your game. Last warning.]
Puller always looks like she just snagged the last cream bun. Crutcher always looks like someone goosed her. Bingles always looks like one of his kids shat in his brogues. Such is life.
They eventually are? Is that it?
Reckon it’ll catch on with Pricksmith, Bingles, Crutcher, Jeery, Munter and the rest of the Pony Boys?
Rowan Atkinson being a Conservative giving out his feelings about immigration in the UK. (Think this was during Thatcher years. It may be entirely different now.)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGdwfykYGY
Please note. This is political satire.