Open mike 19/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 19th, 2019 - 137 comments
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137 comments on “Open mike 19/08/2019”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Tuesday, 30 July 2019 12:21 

    Meatheads

    Written by  Rural News Group

    Meatheads

    Your canine crusader reckons it might be time to reinvent the old ‘Punch a Pom’ campaign, calling it ‘Cuff a Vegan’.

    The ‘Punch’ campaign ran in the 1970s to honour the late, great All Black prop Keith Murdoch who was sent home during the 1972-73 tour of the UK after he whacked a security guard.

    This surge of would-be ‘cuffatarianism’ grows out of recent news that vegans are creeping around NZ supermarkets slapping stickers on meat urging shoppers not to buy it.

    The ‘anti-meat’ stickers have appeared on packaging in several supermarkets and more stores have reported being targeted by vegan activist groups.

    The Hound suggests giving a slap around the ears with a nice bit of steak to any smelly, unkempt, anaemic types sneaking around the meat counter at your local supermarket. 

    • Sacha 1.1

      Cmon, after yesterday do we really need to bait another tiresome discussion that will not end well?

      • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

        I ought to have added a comment. It's disturbing to peer into the rural 'web" and see how messages are sent and prejudices consolidated. Calls for "slapping" go unchallenged, seemingly, so long as a dag of a characters makes those calls.

        • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1.1

          I think (hope) we can agree that both of these things are wrong

          • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1

            That "jokey" vehicle for maintaining and strengthening prejudice is widespread and difficult to address, unless you like to be characterised as a po-faced sourpuss. Perhaps "dagginess" provides a safety-valve for societal pressures, or maybe it builds it, I don't know, though I suspect the latter. 

            • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I'd post a link to Nazi-era Jewish cartoons (to support your view) but I'm at work and I'd rather not get a please explain…

            • Rapunzel 1.1.1.1.1.2

              "Dagginess does", it's easy to be damned if you do or damned of you don't. Being sidelined into analysing something said with good intentions or paying attention to remarks intended to inflame takes a lot of useful talk away from issues that do matter.

              It seems that while NZ has still a few "useful" wags that the state of things now the useful contribution of a John Clarke is not likely to be replicated again, even if he did go to Aus and all that, his sense of world, self and others is beyond the reach, and perhaps comprehension, of people now.

            • New view 1.1.1.1.1.3

              Grow up Robert. The vegans responsible for the stickers had no business being anywhere near the meat section of supermarkets spreading their gospel. Sort of take what you’re dishing out don’t you think. 

              • Robert Guyton

                You're well off the mark, New view. The issue is, so that you can focus better, calling for "giving a slap around the ears" to those he doesn't agree with. Ready to discuss that now, are you?

        • James 1.1.1.2

          I seem to remember a number on here happy with the “punch a nazi” item a while back. 

          • lprent 1.1.1.2.1

            Most of which was criticism of the stance – just as it always is (including the post). Try a search – usually more accurate than your recollections.

            /search/%22punch+a+nazi%22/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

            So is your sensitive small-minded right wing soul conflating criticism of some idiots rejoicing in some stupid tactic and being challenged on it here, with right-wing dickheads doing the same in the privacy of their boy frat and not being challenged?

            How very grown up you are… But of course this is a place of robuts discussion, and by the sound of it, what Robert appears to be talking about is a place of gutless conservative conformists.

          • Muttonbird 1.1.1.2.2

            Amazing you would equate white supremacists and Nazis, neo and otherwise, with vegan activists.

            In your very, very small mind those who worship the Christchurch mass-murderer and a regime which murdered 6M Jews is no different to animal rights activists on a sticker campaign.

            • weka 1.1.1.2.2.1

              I don't think the comparison was vegans and nazis, but left wing TS commenters and right wing rural people.

            • Sabine 1.1.1.2.2.2

              funny, i came a cross a meme that either is from a vegan racist or some racist is using vegans as scapegoat. This to do with muslims and their halal butchering, telling these " xxxxx " to go back from where they came from. Next day on that same board up the pictures of the bulls that will be killed for hte BullRoast (Ochsenbraterei) a famous beer tent at the Octoberfest with a whole Ochs being roasted for public consumption. .My question to the poster if he would also like to send these animal killers 'back to where they came from' elicited no comment. 

              MY point? I have no use for extremism. 

              And i would like for a vegan to live a year on the vegetables, grains and tofu that is solely produced in NZ. Non of the fine imported stuff they like to eat and that includes all of the processed food. 

              Why? Cause use of fossil fuels is the biggest killer on this planet of all manners of life, be it humans, birds, fish, or four legged / two legged furries and all sorts of undesiriable critters that are important for pollination etc. (anything one could kill and will kill thanks to pesticides – including weedkillers)

              Yet we seem to focus on the animals that we consider cute – or worthy of life. 

              ITs the extremism that is wrong. Let people eat as to what grows in their regions, what they can preserve for winter / non growing times, according to their own moral believes  and go back to well regulated ethical bio farming. 

              And please ignore all that micro plastic in the rain. 

              • weka

                well said. It's the extremism that bothers me too, politically, not least because there's no talking to them. That's fundamentalist vegans and hard core dairy farmers, both of whom will burn fossil fuels to keep the fire in their ideologies.

              • Robert Guyton

                "And i would like for a vegan to live a year on the vegetables, grains and tofu that is solely produced in NZ. "

                Why should they?

                No one else is restricted to "NZ only" foodstuffs, or products of any kind, for that matter. Demanding that vegans should live a pure life before criticising others is like demanding that protesters opposing off-shore oil exploration have to get to the protest sites by foot; remember, everyone's compromised, but that shouldn't shut down considered criticism. 

                • Sabine

                  my point being is : Can you survive as a vegan in NZ on produce only from here. 

                  my point: pollution, transport, which in itself is the biggest killer of life on this planet. Our addiction to transport – be it us in our single occupancy cage, our need to travel to far flung places to escape our reality here, our need to pull boats to race down some waterway after racing the motorway etc etc etc, our 'just in time' madness that is essentially storing all of our goods on trucks on the road, our need to eat food not in season and / or imported. 

                  If i am to save the planet and to save the life of animals, and if i feel embolden to go about stickering some stupid plastic coated stickers on everything to let people know what i think of their eating habits, then i need to look at my own behaviour and if i then realise that I could not upheld my own lofty goals without transporting stuff via boat, plane, truck, car etc then maybe i am part of the problem rather then the solution.

                  And then again i raise the question: Can one survive as a strict vegan on produce grown locally in case our civilasation shits itself and one would have to? I would suggest not without sever body issues in regards to lack of Iron, magnesium, calcium etc. And i love myself a good bowl of curried pulses. . 

                  but maybe ask yourself, by reading so much horsemanure into my post, maybe you are the one trying to shut down conversation by not actually answering my question. 

                  And again i like to point out as i have done so many times: Us humans are omnivores and can survive by eating literally anything. And that would include Possum, rabbits, rats and such, generally considered pests in this country that we kill with a lot of poison that also kill deer n shit, and yet, i hear nothing from the Vegans when it comes to that.  Just saying. 

                  • Robert Guyton

                    sabine

                    "Can you survive as a vegan in NZ on produce only from here. "

                    Probably survive, but not thrive, but then, could non-vegans?

                    Where will you get your selenium from?

                    What about other things we share with vegans; reliance upon rare metals etc?

                    We're all in the same boat. If a vegan was starving, I reckon a wild-rabbit stew would look pretty good…

                    I couldn't quite identify what your question was, from your 10:32 post, sorry if I missed it.

            • Climaction 1.1.1.2.2.3

              the population does need to come down to save our only planet and so everyone can live a lifestyle based on a plant based diet. Our planet is not built for 7 Billion current humans and forecasted population of 10 billion. 

              Violence is not the answer however. the population should self police to not grow any further and shrink through natural methods. 

          • McFlock 1.1.1.2.3

            Only in the interests of self defense.

            and… lol

        • weka 1.1.1.3

          Looks like we're still back in the 70s.

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      I have long thought that the rag that the mutt s articles are in are linked to the whole dirty politics hate factory. I rarely bother to open it now . Nz farmer weekly is the only weekly rural paper to read . 

      Some dogs need putting to sleep this is one of them

    • Gabby 1.3

      I'm sure that'll work just fine up until some fine upstanding so of the soil gets stabbed in the face.

  2. johnm 2

    Roger Hallam talks with Stephen Sackur from BBC HardTalk about the need to ACT NOW.

  3. Pat 3

    Last week Fonterra was the whipping boy and this week its our (potential) saviour…..schizophrenia abounds.

    [lprent: More like idiocy does. I can’t see where advantage has said much about Fonterra in recent weeks apart from exactly what he is saying now. Off-topic ]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  4. Robert Guyton 4

    "The Stockholm Resilience Centre defines resilience as:

    the capacity of a system, be it an individual, a forest, a city or an economy, to deal with change and continue to develop. It is about the capacity to use shocks and disturbances like a financial crisis or climate change to spur renewal and innovative thinking. Resilience thinking embraces learning, diversity and above all the belief that humans and nature are strongly coupled to the point that they should be conceived as one social-ecological system (cited in Moberg & Hauge Simonsen, 2011, p. 3)."

    https://www.agresearch.co.nz/assets/document-library/Rural-community-resilience-research-stocktake-and-annotated-bibliography.pdf

  5. Sanctuary 5

    Apparently John Tamihere want to build a Space Port on the harbour bridge and get Mexico to pay for it. 

    • MickeyBoyle 5.1

      Well since we eventually follow most of everything the Americans do. Maybe John is just setting us up for our own space force, who will partake in war games with the yanks around Mars in the years to come.

  6. Sacha 6

    Indebted media company wants favourable policy changes, uses own presenters: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/19/761576/garners-strange-outburst-fitted-pr-strategy

    MediaWorks has been lobbying the Government to turn TVNZ 1 into a non-commercial channel to help stem its own financial bleeding. Frustrated, and getting nowhere, it’s decided to change tack and up the ante with a more aggressive public campaign.

  7. Sanctuary 7

    The Remain campaign in the UK is getting ever more an advertisment for leaving the EU just to smash the power of the neoliberal Oxbridge elites. Essentially, they'll do anything to oppose Brexit as long as it doesn't involve changing the existing status quo – Their demands consist of deeply undemocratic mangerialist fantasies of "unity" leaders that no one has ever heard of or haven't a hope in hell in forming a government and "unity" governments (Green leader Caroline Lucas recently proposed an all women cabinet that was her Oxbridge vision of inclusiveness – one gender, white, middle aged and very much like her) that all turn out to be little more than neoliberal technocratic wet dreams. 

    The one thing they utterly reject is the leader of the largest opposition party having any right to have the first go at forming a new government if the Tories are defeated – rather Boris than Jeremy, whilst the Lib-Dems (14 MPs) demand they have the right to pick the next PM – not Labour (240 MPs).

    Their thrashing about is all to try and achieve two, parallel outcomes – stop Brexit but even more importantly, stop Corbyn and stop Corbynism. 

    The vote to leave the EU was essentially a vote to reject the neoliberal status quo and to reject the self-serving "centrist" metropolitain Oxbridge liberal elites that have arrogated the right to rule and frame the debate entirely to itself. Since the the U.K. voted to leave, IMHO the liberal elites have sought to undermine the result. 

    Taken together, the smearing and character assassination of Corbyn and the use of the same tactics against anyone who voted leave is a damning indictment of the British liberal elites, who for all their sanctimonious utterances of having Britain's best interests at heart really just boil down to a bunch of assholes engaged in a savage class war to protect their cushy white collar jobs as winners from "centrist" neoliberal globalism. 

    • Anne 7.1

      …the smearing and character assassination of Corbyn and the use of the same tactics against anyone who voted leave is a damning indictment of the British liberal elites, who for all their sanctimonious utterances of having Britain's best interests at heart really just boil down to a bunch of assholes engaged in a savage class war to protect their cushy white collar jobs as winners from "centrist" neoliberal globalism. 

      As someone (born of English stock) who takes a passing interest in British politics, I have been puzzled by the hysterical and vengeful hatred directed at Jeremy Corbyn. Having listened to parts of his speeches, both inside parliament and beyond, his views come across to me as sensible and moderate. So, why the animosity?   

      I think Sanctuary has provided the answer – the so-called liberal elites who regard themselves as superior beings because they are white (generally), middle class and educated at some of Britain's best schools. And just for the record, we have had our own version of such politicians in NZ and by no means have they been confined to the National Party.

  8. greywarshark 8

    Edit:
    Marshall Islands dengue outbreak reaches capital
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/396975/marshall-islands-dengue-outbreak-reaches-capital

    In 2011, during the last outbreak of dengue in the Marshall Islands, there were 1,600 cases.
    .
    https://www.medicinenet.com/dengue_fever/article.htm
    Symptoms of dengue fever include severe joint and muscle pain, swollen lymph nodes, headache, fever, exhaustion, and rash. The presence of fever, rash, and headache (the "dengue triad") is characteristic of dengue fever.
    .
    https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/dengue
    (Our Min of Health starts off its information sheet with a stark warning 'Don't get bitten'.)

    Marshall Islands affected by nuclear testing last century:
    (The USA carried out nuclear tests using the Marshall Islands and testing the disease producing effects on the people as if they were lab rats.  They were promised remedial assistance, which was given, but the 'generosity' or the willingness to redress has become limited.    They should be first in line to help these people with whatever problems they have.   Should!)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Proving_Grounds
    Featured snippet from the web
    The Pacific Proving Grounds was the name given by the United States government to a number of sites in the Marshall Islands and a few other sites in the Pacific Ocean at which it conducted nuclear testing between 1946 and 1962. The U.S. tested a nuclear weapon (codenamed Able) on Bikini Atoll on June 30, 1946.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/112903016/worry-as-pacific-nuclear-waste-barrier-cracks

    • greywarshark 8.1

      Add to the USA probably France.   We know they are not a benign country.   The French Revolution to free the people from aristocratic harsh rule, which was a pattern the USA wished to follow links these two in an unholy unity, as their vision of greatness for the peeps has become grimy.    As the saying goes, 'You can't get good help these days.  Nobody wants to clean windows'.

  9. greywarshark 9

    Government failure to govern and contracting out of their duty to the citizens.   This morning on Radionz two top organisations publicise the big holes that are in the controls by government on products imported into NZ.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018709301/tradies-pressured-to-install-shoddy-componentry    33mins (of important details)

    Plumbers, gasfitters and electricians say they're under pressure to install shoddy products from overseas, without proper checks for safety. Imported plumbing products are subject to MBIE guidelines, but the head of the Plumbing, Drainlayers and Gasfitters Association Glen Burr, is concerned there is no longer a requirement for all gas jobs to be lodged and he claims the guidelines have no teeth. That sentiment is echoed by Master Electricians Chief Executive Officer, Bernie McLaughlin. He fears the poor standard of some imported electrical materials could ultimately cause buildings to burn down. Paul Hobbs from MBIE's building system assurance team addresses the concerns.

    I have bought a mixer for my sink and was going to get a plumber to put that in.   I may have bought one that is not up to scratch apparently, and it could start leaking.   So I have to trust a reliable plumber's advice, and I know one firm that I trust so I will definitely check as to the owner's opinion. 

    The electrician spokesperson said that someone in future could get killed from turning on their lighting.

    We know about the gas explosion in Christchurch.    In electricity there can be safety risks also.    Housing and other building speculators are buying in bulk for their projects on the basis of on-line cheap prices.   Our good trained reliable tradespeople are being expected to install stuff that is not properly certified.

      Our government has got to the point where it sits on a system that allows the importation of non-compliant goods, though they are not legal to use. There is a flaw that is obvious to any thinking person here!   The conclusion – there is no thinking and no responsibility by our leaders.   F…ing shocking.  Does this made you feel really angry – it does me.   

    The ongoing problems that will occur from already installed product will last for ever, on top of our problems from climate – tornadoes, rising seas, rain dumps.   Then there is technology and learned helplessness of people trying to cope with the problems from that, unemployment, and education that is totally wrapped around using tech knowledge and control.   And  now this slack behaviour from people in top positions who are very quick to criticise and deal punitively with anything or anybody affecting their personal interests and advantages.

  10. Hooch 10

    Just wondering if Simon Bridges weekly slots on peter Williams magic talk show come under paid advertising. He gets free uncritical reign to talk himself and National up and slag off the government while getting asked a series of “questions” which are more like prompts to move between subjects.

    • David 10.1

      Just wondering if Jacinda's weekly appearances in the MSM, 7 Sharp etc come under paid advertising. She gets free uncritical reign to talk about himself and Labour, about all the stuff she intends to do, the endless reviews and to hide behind process while getting asked a series of “questions” which are more like prompts to move between subjects

      • mauī 10.1.1

        It might be paid advertising if she were interviewed by Tamati Coffey or say a media figure with strong Labour values, but they don't exist in the MSM. I wonder why that is… 

        She's much more likely to get one of the plethora of right wing shock jocks such as Duncan Grater, Ryan Bridges, Peter Willy, Husking, Espiner, Dann…

      • MickeyBoyle 10.1.2

        Your views always depend on what side of the fence you stand in. You're both right, both Ardern and Bridges get an easy ride. Ardern more so when you consider that she actually has the ability to make changes and inact policy. Why she never has to answer the tough questions about our poverty and inequality statistic, I'll never understand. It's a disgrace to democracy and towards our most vulnerable.

      • barfly 10.1.3

        Have you just hatched?  Are you an idiot ? Did you not live through the MSM's pyschophancy in the "key years"  

  11. marty mars 11

    walking the walk not just talking the talk – onya mate

    The Westport man has travelled the South Island as for almost eight months. Each day, he picks up rubbish, collecting up to 80 kilograms a day.

    … "Sometimes it's overwhelming, I'm taking in a lot of stuff that I'm seeing. I have learned to control my emotions, if I'm angry or pissed off it's not going to change the fact rubbish is there. I just pick it up."

    … While he'd love to see more people grab a bag and pick up rubbish, he's more concerned about the way our everyday lives impact on the environment.

    "Look at what we buy. Is it a want or a need? When you look at a pack of chocolate biscuits; it's got two bits of plastic, you eat it in one or two sittings but the plastic is here forever.

    "I'm not saying don't eat it, but we have really got to look at what we are doing to our planet."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/114929630/one-mans-singleminded-mission-to-clean-up-new-zealand

    • Sabine 11.1

      yep, i take a bag out of my local reserve when walking the old dog. 1.5 km at 1.5 hours, one decent size bag of rubbish. I hate single wrapped candy. I just effn hate them. 

      Good sign tho, there is more and more of this fellow.

      • marty mars 11.1.1

        Yep my neighbor and her friend walk to town 3km each day picking up rubbish. Thanks for doing that Sabine.

      • Red Blooded One 11.1.2

        Ditto with me, Sabine. I always have a mesh bag tied to the dog leads and most days there is something to pick up from the sand during our walk on Ninety Mile Beach, sometimes it's local trash and sometimes it clearly has swept in from the sea. I'm no where near the only one locally doing it. The more of us the better eh.   Certainly walking the dogs is an easy pace for seeing the rubbish and smaller plastics.

  12. marty mars 12

    Good article

    It's not an accident that misogyny and racism are interlinked, and those who appear to despise powerful women like Jones, also trade in racism and stirring hatred of Muslims, immigrants and other minorities. 

    This is less about 'free speech' than power. This is about those with waning power desperately holding on to it through control, violence and dominating language. This about flexing and seeing how much they can get away with before someone stops them. 

    https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/life/culture/article/2019/08/16/alan-jones-tirade-against-jacinda-ardern-was-more-just-words

  13. greywarshark 13

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/forget-inverted-yield-curve-time-for-negative-yielding-debt/11425960

    For those trying to keep up with the loop-the-loop aerial tactics of the high-flyers in the financial system.

  14. greywarshark 14

    Looking at some Oz news items and this is about a real brave child.   A great selfless caring action.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/wa-bravery-awards-girl-saved-dog-attack-shark-attack/11421394

  15. Puckish Rogue 15

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115099493/corrections-new-strategy-to-break-cycle-of-mori-imprisonment-and-reoffending

    'The strategy aimed to lower the proportion of Māori in prison to match the Māori share of the general population, he said.

    However, he acknowledged it would be unrealistic to expect that within five years of the strategy.'

    Not saying it won't work but if they really want to cut back on the prison population quickly then all the government has to do is open up more high/maximum security psychiatric wards (and preferably hospitals)

    For a longer term strategy then its more money in early care (like Plunkett) and more money into apprenticeships

    Doing all of the above would be best, it certainly wouldn't do it all but it'd put a big dent in the prison population  

    • marty mars 15.1

      I am keeping open about this – time will tell and the amount of buy in by staff will tell too – Corrections will need a few changes alright. 

      A key focus is whānau and prisoners will get more visits with their families, and more people that they can call while they are behind bars.

      Whānau of inmates will also be able to access rehabilitation programmes in the community if they want to.

      The strategy states prison staff will be expected to treat prisoners with respect and uphold their mana – like they are worthy of dignity and care.

      Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis said the strategy was rooted in Māori values but would be applied across the board to all inmates.

      "The biggest change Hōkai Rangi brings is the idea that we are now going to treat the person and not just their crime," he said

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/396988/hokai-rangi-the-plan-to-reduce-maori-in-prison-from-52-percent-to-16

      • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1

        "A key focus is whānau and prisoners will get more visits with their families, and more people that they can call while they are behind bars."

        Best be hiring a lot more staff because that takes a fair bit of time to organise

        "Whānau of inmates will also be able to access rehabilitation programmes in the community if they want to."

        Ditto above but even worse because now we'll have to consider the security arrangements of wherever the prisoner goes

        "The strategy states prison staff will be expected to treat prisoners with respect and uphold their mana – like they are worthy of dignity and care."

        "The biggest change Hōkai Rangi brings is the idea that we are now going to treat the person and not just their crime,"

        Basically it boils down to this, a prisoner will change when a prisoner wants to change and not before, you can lead a horse to water and all that

        Be nice to see the prisoners do the same (but really this is a nothing, meaningless, feel good statement)

        • marty mars 15.1.1.1

          try improving your attitude

            • marty mars 15.1.1.1.1.1

              lol you've only been in the job for 2 months yet you think you know everything – I'm a bit worried for those you are supposed to be helping if your attitude doesn't change

              • Puckish Rogue

                Lol March is when I first went on the floor so that's coming up 6 months experience and while I know next to nothing I certainly know more than anyone that's never been in Corrections, also my opinions are strongly influenced by the experienced staff I'm learning from lol

                Lol however I'm completely serious that you who obviously knows so much and have so much experience that for you not to be on the floor teaching the staff and the prisoners how things should be done is a complete travesty lol

                Lol of course I'm not serious, I mean you couldn't do what I and thousands of other men and women do, you couldn't handle it, you'd freeze the first time you see someone bleeding out, you'd probably piss your pants the first time a facially-tattooed gangster got in your face yet your seem comfortable in telling me how I need to improve lol

                • marty mars

                  yeah yeah rah rah – I work in mental health bozo so keep going…

                  Pity you didn't see the opportunity this report and idea brings for those who don't know much about Māori culture – for the life of me I can't imagine why anyone would scorn that – experts have thought about it and considered it from a Māori perspective – but that is never considered. It could future proof your whole career and give massive opportunities. It could help these prisoners so they don't try and kill themselves on your shift.

                  Wise up fool

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Good so no excuses about coming over to Corrections then

                    I'm sure theres opportunity there but, and its a very big but, there are simpler, quicker and more effective ways to reduce the prison population however it would cost more money and this is more a PR exercise

                    As for experts the older I get and more time I spend in areas the more I realise that experts tend to do more harm than good unless those same experts also have the experience

                    • marty mars

                      and you'd agree that you have neither – expertise or experience that is
                      not sure why you’d not be up for all info and knowledge

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I have more than anyone that hasn't set foot on a floor and every day that experience and expertise grows

                    • marty mars

                      we're talking about the latest meta initiative from corrections that you are unconvinced about – on that subject it seems small experience means very little

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Theres no mention of prisoners working involved, theres no mention of prisoners taking responsibility for their actions

                      This may work but there are plenty of other options that are more effective at reducing reoffending

                    • marty mars

                      how would you know that

                    • McFlock

                      He's been a CO for six months, that makes him an expert in everything lol

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I learn from the men and women that have the experience, that've been there and done that so when they talk I listen but if you'd like an example of why not questioning experts is a bad idea you could probably talk to Sandra Coney or Peter Ellis (better be quick though)

                      The more time on their hands a prisoner has the more likely they are to cause trouble just like when young men are unemployed, you only have to look at wings to see this in action, the wings with workers are safer than the wings without workers

                      Theres numerous examples out there of crime rising in areas when unemployment raises so I don't think its radical to suggest getting people working is a good idea, it teaches responsibilities, it gives structure and grows pride

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I feel Pucky's coming on-board smiley

                    • In Vino

                      As a teacher, I back Pockish – sorry – Puckish Rogue.  How many times has Govt. introduced fine theory, without funding or resourcing staff to be able to achieve it?  For your benefit, Marty, programmes to assist Maori in the education system have failed because of exactly the problem PR is pointing out.  He has a valid point.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Lordy! A Pucky-love-in! Never thought I'd see the day!

                      smiley

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I reckon, inside, you learn fast!

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I've always admired your well thought out and reasoned contributions to this blog In Vino

        • Sabine 15.1.1.2

          maybe if we start policing and sentencing to prison terms the Pakeha population as we do with the Maori population we would see an adjustment in the ranks of our prisoners. 

          But i won't be holding my breath.

          • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.2.1

            Off the top of my head:

            More resources into Plunkett, more resources into apprenticeships, more psychiatric wards and hospitals and more work schemes in prison would, I guarantee, see a reduction in the prison population

            • weka 15.1.1.2.1.1

              Plunkett needs to be paid a whole lot less than he is now.

              Not to worry PR, if the CO thing doesn't work out I'm sure you could get a job with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff service. I agree about the apprenticeships though.

              • Puckish Rogue

                "I'm sure you could get a job with the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff service"

                Already there unfortunately, I mean just have a think about whats let a child down before they get to Corrections.

                The mother, the family, education, hospitals, police, the justice department, mental health services, some of these have or all of them have and I've probably missed other agencies out

                But hey its where I want to be 🙂

                • weka

                  People liking their jobs is usually a good thing.

                  I agree with you about the fails. Probably we don't agree on what should be done differently, but maybe some overlaps.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    I don't claim to have all the answers but I'm 100% sure that encouraging and giving more work to prisoners can only lead to a more positive outcome

                    It might even be the difference between spending between 100 to 150 grand a year on incarcerating someone and them paying income tax instead which might also mean their kids might not end up in prison either, breaking the cycle and all that

              • Robert Guyton

                Ha! Plunkett.

                I see a plump baby.

            • Robert Guyton 15.1.1.2.1.2

              You're sounding very … liberal and progressive with your thinking, Pucky:

              Not going all lefty on us, are ya?

              • Puckish Rogue

                I've always been conservative in some areas and liberal in others but now that I'm in the system I can start to see where improvements could happen

                Whether they will happen is another matter but at least now I have a vague idea of what's actually happening

                • Robert Guyton

                  That's really good, Pucky.

                  We need realists like you at the coal-face (goal face).

                  Gotta ask: do you share Judith's enthusiasm for double-bunking?

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Judith is never wrong but in this (extremely rare) situation she was probably given inaccurate information (perhaps by a Labour mole) smiley

                    Had I been advising her I would have advised that single bunks are the better option

                    I also note Labours opposing double bunking when in opposition but once they got into power that opposition seemed to…change

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Appreciate your candidness.

                      The gleeful look on Jude's face at the announcement worried me.

                      Still, everyone makes mistakes, even the blessed and the godly.

                      Anne Tolley clumping about on the bonnet of a boy-racer's car was another … twin-black-cat in the matrix, but let's move on; liking the cut of your jib, Pucky; be real, tell it how it is.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Have I mentioned I'm a unionist?

                    • Brigid

                      So you agreed with their opposing double bunking but still didn't vote for them.

                      As for being a unionist, I guess you would have been one who voted not to strike against  the Employment Contracts Act.

                      Perhaps you were still at school then..

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Easy Brigid…

                      easy…

                • dv

                  PR, thank you for the insight into corrections. It is helpful.

          • alwyn 15.1.1.2.2

            Perhaps we should do the same for females in the Prison population.

            As of June 2019 there were 9252 males and 717 females in New Zealand prisons. Clearly the system is heavily biased against men. Let us have equal numbers of male and female prisoners. 

            Why is it that men are so cruelly treated? 

  16. greywarshark 16

    OZs ABC News presenting the report about post-Brexit chaos which has surfaced again so people remember the actual results likely in case they have gone off-piste while distracting clowns tumble to amuse the peeps.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/uk-faces-food-and-fuel-shortages-in-no-deal-brexit/11426072

    and closer to home:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-08-19/australia-co2-exports-third-highest-worldwide/11420654

    The analysis, released today by public policy think tank the Australia Institute, measures fossil fuel exports according to their carbon dioxide-emissions potential.

    It ranks Australia as the world's third-biggest exporter behind only Russia and Saudi Arabia.

    In other words, when Australian fossil fuels — primarily coal — are burned overseas, the amount of carbon dioxide they produce is higher than the exported emissions of nearly all the world's biggest oil- and gas-producing nations, like Iraq and Kuwait.

    Australia mines about 57 tonnes of CO2 potential per person each year, about 10 times the global average, and exports 7 per cent of the world's fossil fuel CO2 potential, the report found.

  17. Muttonbird 17

    I surprised corrections staff were left to make these decisions without clear guidance on what is a highly sensitive and unprecedented case.

    There seems to have been no plan whatsoever.

    You can’t expect ordinary corrections staff to grasp the significance of the task. They are after all low skilled workers.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396999/staff-had-sufficient-grounds-to-withhold-inmate-s-letter-corrections-boss

    • Sacha 17.1

      I understood from reports last week that the decisions were made by the manager of each prison. Hardly 'ordinary Corrections staff' – though clearly not competent enough in this instance.

    • Puckish Rogue 17.2

      " They are after all low skilled workers."

      Way to crap on 3000+ union members (I mean its also wrong but still)

    • Jimmy 17.3

      That's not very complimentary about corrections staff! I'm sure as he's a very high profile prisoner, at least some sort of manager / supervisor would be checking his mail.

      • Muttonbird 17.3.1

        Clearly not.

      • Puckish Rogue 17.3.2

        Being a (as Muttonbird so charmingly calls it) "low skilled worker" I would have had all his mail be sorted by one person only and at a minimum of PCO level (but preferably higher) but that's just me

  18. adam 18

    Fox news poll results – wow, just wow. 



  19. Poission 19

    Generic managers the telling statistic,from the statistics debacle.

    Why qualified statisticians are not significant at the department of statistics.

    Hardly anyone has noticed the telling recommendation in the 2018 Census Review report that the Chief Methodologist – an ungainly title for SNZ's senior professional statistician – should be added to the Executive Leadership Team. Under the previous Government Statistician he had been a Deputy Government Statistician but had been demoted to the third level. That is right – in the current Statistics New Zealand there are no professional statisticians in the top two tiers of management.

    This is characteristic of generic managers with their typical preference for distancing professionals from management. The SSC was unwise to appoint a generic manager to such a skilled job; I have wondered whether the advisory committee which assisted the State Service Commissioner to make the appointment of the current Government Statistician had any professional statistician on it or whether it, too, was stacked with generic managers.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396968/what-can-we-learn-from-the-2018-census-debacle

    • greywarshark 19.1

      Why have any managers in these positions at all – feed the info into a machine and let it decide, and do a better job as any one can see. 

      I ask you!!    /sarc

      The truth is the business-people, small government advocates, don't want to have a good government running well because then they have no reason to play around with it, mess it up, stop employing their mates in top positions, and generally foul up the country in any way that pays off for those with power.    It is a continuing practice, or have some forgotten that.

    • The cult of generic management needs to die, and I don't particularly care whether it's a painless death as long as it's a quick one. 

      Hiring generic managers supposedly overcomes the problem that being highly skilled in your area of specialisation doesn't necessarily make you fit to run a large organisation. And I guess it does overcome that problem, at the expense of creating a much bigger one: having little knowledge of the work and purpose of the organisation you're running makes for you doing a shit job of running it. 

      • AB 19.2.1

        But Psycho – what about all those University Business Schools shutting their doors! And MBAs would be more ridiculed than BAs (deservedly imho). MBA would stand for “Mendacious BA”.

        • Poission 19.2.1.1

          John Raulston Saul in the unconscious civilization frames the managerial elites as thus.

          our élite is primarily and increasingly managerial. A managerial élite manages. A crisis, unfortunately, requires thought. Thought is not a management function .

          Because the managerial élites are now so large and have such a dominant effect on our educational system, we are actually teaching most people to manage, not to think. Not only do we not reward thought, we punish it as unprofessional.

          Hard to argue with that.

  20. Robert Guyton 20

    Everybody wants to move to Nelson: Top of the South!

    "The Nelson Club held a special general meeting on Friday, in which the member was censured and announced his voluntary resignation from the club's committee, but retained his membership.

    The accused member was alleged to have claimed there is scientific evidence that "blacks have a lower IQ than whites", that homosexuals have a "sickness" and that Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is a communist and, if she were re-elected, he would potentially move back to the United Kingdom. "

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115101344/nelson-club-member-who-made-racist-comments-keeps-his-membership

    • AB 20.1

      If March 15 hadn't happened this would be hilarious.

      • Robert Guyton 20.1.1

        Yes.

        He's probably right though; there will be scientific evidence.

        But Jacinda is a "he" and would move back to the United Kingdom if re-elected"?

        Not sure about that…

      • weka 20.1.2

        "If March 15 hadn't happened this would be hilarious."

        Probably not if you are Muslim.

        • In Vino 20.1.2.1

          Oh dear – I had thought of the Ides of March and Julius Caesar, and was trying to make some kind of link…

          But I think you are repeating AB's point, Weka. 

          Count me as another of those very pleased to see you back, by the way.

          • weka 20.1.2.1.1

            Thanks In Vino!

            I thought I was contradicting AB's point (even without the mosque shootings, that Nelson story is hugely problematic rather than funny)

    • weka 20.2

      well that's a disturbing read. The banger in the last sentence, well done Stuff.

      The lawyer is a bit of a worry. People can have whatever views they want, but when doing lawyerly things I wouldn't expect a letter to express the lawyer's personal opinions about ethnicity and IQ.

    • marty mars 20.3

      I'm sure a social media campaign would give him his tickets in hours so he can go back to the uk. Could be a good option for this racist wanker.

  21. weka 21

    PSA: if you want a sharp smiley rather than a fuzzy one, use type.

    :- ) without the gap = 🙂

    rather than smiley from the Comment box options.

    Full smiley text short cuts are here /faq/smile/

    :mrgreen:

  22. Muttonbird 22

    Looks like National are in trouble again. This time for misleading, fake-news, Liberal Party, Topham Guerin type attack ads which appear to the Electoral Commissions to be shit enough to warrant further investigation.

    Sometimes commenter, Wayne, vigorously defend these ads on this very forum a few weeks ago but it turns out he's on the wrong side of the Electoral Commission on this. But that is the way of the National Party, isn't it? Misleading, dishonest crap is their stock and trade.

    James Shaw is right, Simon Bridges has very, very low integrity and should not be allowed anywhere near power.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115111679/nationals-desperate-attack-ads-to-be-investigated-by-advertising-standards-authority

    • Incognito 22.1

      It is known as a professional foul.

    • alwyn 22.2

      Someone really needs to teach Genter how to use Word.

      I heard a rumour that the "anonymous" letter writer accidentally managed to write the letter on paper bearing the letterhead of the Associate Minister of Transport.

      You would think she had learned something from her fiasco with the letter about the Wellington transport options she sent to Twyford wouldn't you?

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    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    2 weeks ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 weeks ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    2 weeks ago

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