Open mike 19/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, October 19th, 2014 - 137 comments
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137 comments on “Open mike 19/10/2014 ”

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  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1
    19 October 2014 at 8:09 am

    Comedian Russel Brand on “The Trews” commenting on those in the media who have right wing opinions on welfare. I thought the guy was a little nuts but have found his analysis of media enjoyable.

  2. phillip ure 2
    19 October 2014 at 9:14 am

    any other elizabeth warren fanboys/girls out there..?

    ..i want warren to be the next president of america..

    ..she is all of our best hope..

    ..for some positive change..

    (here is a warren primer/archive..to get you started..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/?s=elizabeth+warren

    • Chooky 2.1
      19 October 2014 at 12:47 pm

      thanks for that on Elizabeth Warren…..some hope for the USA yet….and certainly a way better than Hilary Clinton!

      • phillip ure 2.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 1:29 pm

        the idea of clinton getting the democratic nomination makes me shudder…

        ..and so far warren hasn’t put a foot wrong in her slow but steady growth of her support-base..(more power to her..!..)

        ..warren is a seriously impressive person..

        ..and says much that resonates with me like a ringing bell..

        (..and maybe..if she loses..we cd invite her down here to lead the labour party..?..)

  3. phillip ure 3
    19 October 2014 at 9:17 am

    go and watch the labour candidates debating on q & a..

    ..and feel/watch yr heart sink..

    ..hear them all speak meaningless aspirational bullshit..

    ..see their charisma-bye-passes on the wide-screen…

    ..see the greens overtake labour in the polls..

    ..in the very near future..

    ..and mahuta comes across as the most honest..

    ..seriously..!

    ..the rest are saying absolutely fucken nothing..

    • Belladonna 3.1
      19 October 2014 at 9:31 am

      Not at all inspirational. Seems they would all choke if they had to use the word
      ‘beneficiary’. Activists were mentioned, presume they dont mean any from The Standard as I cant imagine any activist support coming from TS.

    • phillip ure 3.2
      19 October 2014 at 9:33 am

      and the rightwing-trouts seem to have accepted int-mana as a useful scapegoat/whipping-boy..for their defeat..

      ..what a sad sad outing this has been..

      ..this is what the labour party has become..eh..?

      ..and this gaggle of neo-lib also-rans (truculent in their rightwingedness)..is the best they have..eh..?

      ..so uninspiring..you could almost bottle it..

      • phillip ure 3.2.1
        19 October 2014 at 10:27 am

        cd i kick off the ‘bring back cunliffe!’ movement here/now/today..?

        ..it just seems timely..

        ..i have seen the future..and it isn’t looking too crash-hot..eh..?

        ..if they don’t..2017..and until then..

        ..will be a trainwreck in oh so slow motion…

        .tell me how it won’t..

    • David H 3.3
      19 October 2014 at 9:35 am

      All busy saying exactly nothing to make me want to come back and vote for them.

    • Clean_power 3.4
      19 October 2014 at 9:47 am

      @Mr Ure: I have to agree with you. It was rather depressing.

    • amirite rawshark 3.5
      19 October 2014 at 12:20 pm

      Phillip, if I remember correctly, Key used to go on about similar “aspirashunal” crap in the lead to 2008?-2011 election, which makes Labour MPs aspiring to a Leader’s role blind followers of the same RW bullcrap.

      • phillip ure 3.5.1
        19 October 2014 at 1:16 pm

        ’14 was ‘aspirtional’ for key/national..too..

        ..no policy..

        ..just the secret agenda..

        ..two bits of which we have seen..so far..

        ..sell off all the state houses..

        ..and go to war..as americas’ spear-carrier..again..

        ..and i am still reeling from the revelation that goff/the clark govt. sent the top military people to america..

        ..to beg for us to be included in the afghanistan-adventure…

        ..how fucked up is that..?

        ..so key didn’t sell out our ‘foreign policy independence’..

        ..that was already long gone..

        ..by the time he turned up/hoved into view….

        • Molly 3.5.1.1
          19 October 2014 at 6:31 pm

          From what I remember from Nicky Hager’s book, top military men from NZ were meeting US military without the knowledge of Helen Clark, and some of these meetings were kept completely secret.

          And they lied to the Helen Clark government as well.

          Haven’t got the book with me, so can’t check. Maybe someone else can.

          • Murray Rawshark 3.5.1.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 8:56 pm

            In some cases they were, yes. Air Force officers were also giving treasonous lectures at ADFA about how Helen Clark was a socialist lesbian who didn’t support freedom and the Kiwi economy would be stuffed without the TPPA and other free trade agreements. The military do not seem very patriotic at all sometimes.

          • phillip ure 3.5.1.1.2
            19 October 2014 at 10:53 pm

            @ molly..

            ..r u saying those military people took us into the afghanistan invasion without clark/goff knowing about it..?

    • Chooky 3.6
      19 October 2014 at 12:50 pm

      yes Nanaia Mahuta is Labour Party’s only hope!

      ….but never mind if they dont elect her as leader …..then the Greens will take over as the lead party on the Left !

    • Once Was Tim 3.7
      19 October 2014 at 4:15 pm

      I can’t @ PU. I don’t have a widescreen and I’ve no plans to get one until the current cathode ray tube craps out OR I put a sledge hammer through it. (I’ve been known to drop them from great heights to watch them implode, but I suspect if I did so, these days I’d have the AOS at the front door)
      No doubt the MSM will give their interpretation, and I’ll get a fairly good idea of the content when I put it through my ‘nzmsm translator’ (in the digital age, it basically converts zeros to ones, and ones to zeros, applies a few other alogorithms NRZ and NRZI), and I get a pretty good idea. (the translator is pretty good really because I don’t have to suffer a bunch of pillocks out to exercise their egos – there are plenty of other platforms for them to do that)

  4. Tony Parker 4
    19 October 2014 at 9:18 am

    Rod Oram’s column in the SST today is excellent. Hits the nail right on the head with regard to Dirty Politics, Slater and the influence of the powerful.

  5. Rosie 5
    19 October 2014 at 9:30 am

    Lols. Hows your local branch of National Front doing these days? Looks like they are on a membership drive if yesterdays organising activity was anything to go by.

    Was at work yesterday when a bunch of them came past waving huge NZ flags and putting leaflets under the windscreen wipers of parked cars. Boss went out and got a leaflet so we could see what it was all about.

    They are organising around the topic of the NZ flag, they don’t want it changed. Ok, but here’s a tip for the NF – If you don’t want to be laughed at, apart from the usual reasons people laugh at you, and you want to be taken seriously, get some one to proof read your flyer before you print it.

    Eg: “Don’t let the Politians change our flag with something that looks like it was cut from a rugby shirt”. Yes, it was “politians” and “with” instead of “to”.

    Also, from their membership application form: “I authorise the secretary of the National Front to release this application form the the Electrol Commission for the purpose of registering New Zealand National Front under the Electrol Act 1993”.

    Yes it was “electrol”.

    If, next year Key gets really busy with his diversionary LALALALALALA!!!!! lets change the flag buzz, your 6pm news could become quite entertaining if the NF gain some traction with their campaign.

    • karol 5.1
      19 October 2014 at 9:41 am

      “electrol” – ah, we have a few of those around here.

      • Rosie 5.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 10:05 am

        My thoughts too karol. I had to smile when I read the leaflet.

        • Colonial Rawshark 5.1.1.1
          19 October 2014 at 11:01 am

          small note: they will be getting new members and motivation from this flag thing.

          • Rosie 5.1.1.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 1:51 pm

            Exactly CV, it is clearly an organising activity with the goal of increasing membership and profile. The flag thing just happens to be a perfect vehicle for organising – they will aim to reach “patriots” who are not necessarily active white supremacists, and who are not aware of what the NF are really about.

            With a broader membership base they can pretend they represent “ordinary” NZer’s and distance themselves from their core activity of expressing hatred. The flag agenda is perfect foil.

          • Murray Rawshark 5.1.1.1.2
            19 October 2014 at 9:05 pm

            I suspect they’ve lost a lot of members to Winston First already. Most of their policies are pretty much the same. They just go a bit overboard with the race hatred stuff, whereas Winnie just talks about huge mansions out in Howick and the sale of farmland to non-American foreigners.

  6. Morrissey 6
    19 October 2014 at 10:31 am

    The government’s dodgy “Chief Science Advisor”

    Another excellent item by Wayne Brittenden on Radio NZ National this morning, this time about a disturbing government campaign against outspoken scientists like Dr Mike Joy. Leading the campaign is the grandiosely titled “Prime Minister’s Chief Science Advisor” Dr Peter Gluckman, who has come up with a “Code of Ethics”, which would forbid academics from speaking or writing about anything other than their own narrow research interests.

    Dr Gluckman, however, sees no need to apply the same standard to himself. A political zealot, he often strays way beyond his own level of competence when he speaks publicly….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27032011/#comment-313255
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01082011/#comment-358776

    I sent the following email to Wallace Chapman…..

    The hypocrisy of Dr Peter Gluckman

    Dear Wallace,

    It is rich irony to hear that the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Advisor Dr Peter Gluckman is leading a campaign against academics who “go beyond their remits and stray into advocacy.” Dr Gluckman has several times on National Radio expressed extreme and prejudiced views about Israel, painfully demonstrating he has done little or no serious reading on the subject. if he followed the rules he wishes to inflict on our scientists, he would have remained silent.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 6.1
      19 October 2014 at 11:19 am

      What are Peter Gluckman’s ties to the National Party?
      Has he fully declared them yet?

      • Morrissey 6.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 11:48 am

        As we have seen with the recent comments by Messrs Goff and Shearer, one does not have to actually belong to the National Party in order to cooperate fully with it.

    • Chooky 6.2
      19 October 2014 at 1:25 pm

      +100 Morrissey …yes superb dissection piece by Wayne Brittenden as usual ( Gluckman is Orwellian in that he is there to close down debate in the name of science)

      …in fact Wallace Chapman’s whole programme is thought provoking and intelligent ( best of radionz these days)

      …media watch asks provoking questions about ISIS/terrorism laws and a new Media outlet backed by Slater and friends?

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/20153945/mediawatch-for-19-october-2014

      this item on white collar crime is also worth listening to…certainly puts beneficiary fraud in perspective

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20153949/the-cost-of-economic-crime

      • Rodel 6.2.1
        19 October 2014 at 9:35 pm

        Had to laugh at media watch’s discussion of the new news media outlet–watisit ?’ ‘freed’ or something? involving some benefactor entrepreneur and Cameron Slater considering Slater’s resurrection of ‘Truth’ “”newspaper””.

        I just wonder who would apply to work for such people..Maybe the Kyle Chaman the guy from ‘Keep NZ White?’ Not Paddy Gower, Hoskings or Henry surely.They’re too professional. (Sarc)

    • Once Was Tim 6.3
      19 October 2014 at 4:21 pm

      Jeeeeeez @ Morissey! I wonder what Glukman’s area of expertise and limitations should apply to his own son. @ PU – perhaps you might have an opinion?
      I suspect he thinks a respectable period of time has elapsed – one that’s only applicable to the ‘in crowd’.

      There but for the Grace of God go you Mr Glukman – you fucking hypocrite pillock

  7. Rosie 7
    19 October 2014 at 10:41 am

    “We look after our own”.

    Jason Ede gets a job at Teamtalk, owned by the brother in law of Amy Adams, plus other assorted dodgy Nat links:

    “Ware’s wife Belinda Milnes is an adviser to Social Housing Minister Paula Bennett, having quit this week as Families Commissioner, and her sister is Communications Minister Amy Adams.

    Former National deputy leader Roger Sowry is the independent chair of Teamtalk. Prime Minister John Key’s Official Information Act gatekeeper Sarah Boyle, who worked alongside Ede, is listed as holding shares in Teamtalk worth about $300,000. Ware said she was trustee of his family trust and also godmother to Ware and Milne’s daughters.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10634251/Political-influence-denied-in-Edes-work

    I’ve been away from politics for two weeks. Has Sarah Boyle had a spotlight shone on her for her role in the politically motivated release of OIA requests?

  9. small thing 9
    19 October 2014 at 10:49 am

    The flag- it – situation
    Keys new distraction to get people looking at him because everyone know who he is now- the perpetrator of the new americanisation of NZ
    Maybe Key should declare the TTPA in his version of the flag by stating with their flags on ours, the countries that will own us after the agreement goes thru
    Stick your flag in your mouth Key and chew on that- mite keep you from telling anymore lies

    • blue leopard 9.1
      19 October 2014 at 11:02 am

      I support a change in flag but only as long as “Propaganda rulz o.k. #sellouts” are required to be on all the options. 🙂

      [+1 Small Thing ]

  10. Not a PS Shark Sashimi 10
    19 October 2014 at 11:32 am

    Referendum: protect our Housing NZ Stock

    Referendum: to TPPA or Not?

    • Tautoko Mango Mata 10.1
      19 October 2014 at 11:35 am

      Absolutely NaPSSS

      • greywarshark 10.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 5:19 pm

        What about a referendum on how to keep closer watch on the health of our financial system and the extent of fraud?
        As we know from previous research, welfare is way down the bottom of offenders.
        And I don’t know if they have added in overpayments, which are being repaid from current payments.
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20153949
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/257185/economic-crime-costs-up-to-$9-point-4bn-draft-report

        Economic crime is costing New Zealand up to $9.4 billion a year according to a draft Serious Fraud Office (SFO) report obtained by Radio New Zealand.
        At the beginning of last year the then Minister for the SFO, Anne Tolley, was reported as saying that a number of Government ministries had been working for two years on a report quantifying the cost of economic crime and it would be presented to Cabinet in the near future.
        But the report did not make it to Cabinet and was not released.

        (RadioNZ has set itself to generate news about the government and other matters through following up on OIA material. And this is interesting. And also how there is a slip between cup and lip! The pollie may pronounce on something as if it is under way and oversight, but then it may never be heard of again, as apparently in this case. But Radionz has unearthed it for us. Take note when dissing Radionz.)

        lprent if you could bring up the image when you have time that would be good.
        This is the Image Location if that’s what’s needed – the item url is at the top.
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/26285/eight_col_sfo-economic-crime.png?1413530776

  11. Tautoko Mangō Mata 11
    19 October 2014 at 12:05 pm

    So Grant Robertson says the Labour party “should’ve been clearer about their unwillingness to work with the Internet Mana party during the election campaign.”
    I actually wonder if this is correct.
    What if Labour had come out in support of Mana and defended Mana’s right to use DotCom’s money as long as there were no strings attached and pointed out that National donations seem to come with strings attached to corporations, honours lists, contracts etc. Maybe saying that National were just sore because they didn’t get DotCom’s financial backing (which was supporting good social, environmental and clean tech policies) may have at least shown that the Left was more cohesive. Labour kicking DotCom was confusing, plus the rather manufactured blue-green move in the last week gave the appearance of a group of parties in no position to form a stable coalition.

    • blue leopard 11.1
      19 October 2014 at 12:25 pm

      I agree with this TMM

      I’m getting really worried about these comments coming from the Labour leader contenders – it is like they have learned nothing. 🙁

      I disagree with those who are saying ‘it wasn’t made clear enough’ because it was very clear that IMP were not going to be invited to the table of power.

      There is all this talk of Labour needing to appeal to blokes, or people who are disturbed by Dotcom, or ‘centrists’ – but there are very few comments on how taking such a stance might put other sections of NZ off supporting them – and maybe even voting altogether. I would like to see that this aspect is being considered in the discussion too – but I haven’t any evidence that it is.

      I really hope Labour isn’t going to keep indulging in these halfbaked theories and half-baked strategies. It really hasn’t worked for the left at all.

      Dear Labour Leader Contenders,

      Please show us there is more than just thoughtless knee-jerk reactions being discussed in the formulation of your theories and strategies.

      Thanks

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 1:21 pm

        I’m getting really worried about these comments coming from the Labour leader contenders – it is like they have learned nothing. 🙁

        They haven’t leaned anything, specifically, they haven’t learned to stand on their own their own principles and keep borrowing National’s lack of principles.

        • blue leopard 11.1.1.1
          19 October 2014 at 1:30 pm

          +111 Well said

          Would you check out the suggestion I made in my comment to Tautoko @11.1.2.1 below?

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 11.1.2
        19 October 2014 at 1:26 pm

        I felt that Labour bought Into the National Party narrative on Dotcom. He (KDC) has not broken the law in this country but the GCSB did. When you are chasing the centrist vote, then you lose control of the narrative and end up copying rather than formulating your own. Labour should never regard other potential coalition parties as opponents but rather as potential partners. Surely this is one of the biggest lessons to be learnt from this last election.

        • blue leopard 11.1.2.1
          19 October 2014 at 1:34 pm

          +111 I thoroughly agree. It would be ‘neat’ if leftwing pollies would read these comments.

          …maybe a question could be posed to Parker today, to get the message across?

          You into it? Or DTB? If not, perhaps I will, but am a bit over asking questions of these people.

          • red blooded 11.1.2.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 5:05 pm

            Oh, come on, people! We criticised National when they were being funded by the 7th Day Adventists – people using their money to sway the voting public, but not actually voting themselves. Well, KDC did the same thing. He was more open about it, but his motivations were somewhat muddled (let’s recall that he basically has right wing views – buddied up with John Banks pretty damn quickly and only looked elsewhere when he had personal reasons for wanting to bring down Key).

            While I think there’s room for some version of the Internet Party and that the Snowden revelations deserve public enquiry and action, the fact is that people didn’t like feeling like KDC was pulling the strings and trying to use their votes for his own purposes.

            • Colonial Rawshark 11.1.2.1.1.1
              19 October 2014 at 5:43 pm

              Well, KDC did the same thing. He was more open about it

              It’s therefore NOT the same thing at all. All political parties have wealthy funders, and Dotcom’s approach was more transparent than most. And completely unlike the Closed Brethren who tried to wage some kind of covert campaign.

              Where IMP got it wrong was that they thought Dotcom’s celebrity status was a plus during their campaign, when in fact by the last month, it was becoming a big minus.

            • blue leopard 11.1.2.1.1.2
              19 October 2014 at 5:50 pm

              That is just it, Red Blooded – you are quite happy to conclude that ‘people didn’t like it’ – yet where are you really engaging with the clear message from the public that ‘people don’t mind’ vested interests when it is a right-wing phenomenon.

              Or, actually, I am not sure what the pivotal factor is that classes the right-wing use of money as acceptable – and what Dotcom did as unacceptable.

              Was it, as I implied earlier, because it is o.k that the right do it, but when the left do it it is unacceptable?

              Is it because the right-wing hide it? That ‘people’ prefer the whole lacking-of-transparency way the right deal with their finances? That being open about it is what ‘people’ didn’t like?

              Maybe it was because Dotcom is a German? That was cited plenty of times.

              Because he is overweight? Owns a book by Hitler?

              Or perhaps these are just actually all weak excuses that people use for supporting the right over the left?

              One thing is for sure, it can’t have been because he donated to John Banks, which was rather off-putting for me, because that would be incredible that people would run toward a government where a party that John Banks had been in had a chance at power.

              Really, who knows why there is such a striking double standard?

              Or maybe it is that the right-wing are much better at commanding the narrative than the left?

              This last point brings the discussion to the point I, and others, are making.

              i.e. you can simply decide ‘people didn’t like it’ or look a bit deeper as to what factors went into this dislike – was this opinion solely ‘from the people’ or fomented by spin? (You know, like linking a German with Hitler and stuff like that) Was there anything the left could have done to calm this dislike or was the response we got – buying into the spin – the best course of action?

              • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks …
                19 October 2014 at 6:30 pm

                KDC could have done with a personal adviser, when he thought to get into politics.

                Some of it was his own doing. Why on earth would he hang onto a copy of Mein Kampf?? I don’t care what it’s worth, lose it! Get rid of it. Or sell it and donate the money to charity.

                I tripped over a copy once at the Tip. I had picked it up before I realised what it was. It was very old, good condition – It burnt itself out of my hands faster than I could do more than read the title and author. Some things evoke such deep revulsion that they contaminate all that surround them.

                • Molly …
                  19 October 2014 at 6:40 pm

                  Re: Mein Kampf – I’m the counter to you.

                  Found the book in a box of throwouts, and brought the copy home to read one day. It has not yet made it to my bedside table.

                  When I do get round to it, it is because I want to understand what arguments and ideas he used that made a nation complicit with such horrific human rights violations.

                  … am becoming less certain that I need to read it, after going through NZ’s last election.

                  • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks …
                    19 October 2014 at 6:54 pm

                    … am becoming less certain that I need to read it, after going through NZ’s last election.

                    Yes. It has been a learning curve. 🙁

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  19 October 2014 at 9:12 pm

                  KDC could have done with a personal adviser, when he thought to get into politics.

                  I think that was what Bomber was there for.

              • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks …
                19 October 2014 at 7:50 pm

                Blue Leopard, The single most significant thing that Labour could have done to turn things around was to not run an electoral candidate in Te Tai Tokerau.

                I know that is not exactly what you are asking, but if that had not happened we would be looking at a rather different scenario right now. And the people who’s right it should be to answer the questions you’re asking, and who are best suited to do so, namely Hone and Laila, would be able to speak out in ways that everyone could hear.

                • blue leopard …
                  19 October 2014 at 8:19 pm

                  Yeah, that’s a funny one for me. Due to being influenced by [only] a few comments that relayed people in that electorate would not respond well to having their choice removed, I thought Labour were right to have a candidate but Davis should have been way higher on the list.

                  I absolutely recognise this idea is a pretty manipulative, game playing approach, and perhaps removing the candidate would have been fine, I really don’t know and am simply sharing the thoughts I have had on the matter.

                  Regardless of the ‘how’ I do wish something more strategic had been pursued and that Hone & Laila were in parliament this term because, as you say, they are very good at speaking out in ways that everyone can hear.

                  And I do wonder how many voted for IMP that were first time voters, and how they feel to having no representation after having voted. Will it put them off voting?

              • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks …
                19 October 2014 at 8:18 pm

                was the response we got – buying into the spin – the best course of action?

                Buying into the spin was an absolute disaster for Labour!

                What people saw/ read or heard was “Dear Leader” calling the shots, tugging the reins and the obedient horses drawing him along, veering in whichever direction he wished!!

                News in the leader-media one day: ‘ “Labour is lurching to the left!” ..says dear leader.’
                Obedient compliance by Labour the next, “No, no, dear leader, we are not at all. Look — we want nothing to do with those awful IMP ratbags!! No, no … You are right dear leader, they are certainly not the way to go and we obey you too!”

        • phillip ure 11.1.2.2
          19 October 2014 at 1:35 pm

          they have learnt nothing..

          ..parker brushed away that question..

          ..with the farcical claim that labour would beat them all..

          ..and wd get back to 40% under him..(w.t.f. is he smoking..?..and can i have some..?..)

          ..and i predict labour will plunge into the teens in the polls..

          ..and that will happen soon…

          ..this leadership contest is more of a wake…

          ..than anything else..

          ..and isn’t it all happening so fast..?.

        • Chooky 11.1.2.3
          19 October 2014 at 1:39 pm

          +100 TMM

        • Manuka - Ancient Order of Rawsharks 11.1.2.4
          19 October 2014 at 9:53 pm

          Totally agree with your post TMM, on all points.

      • wekarawshark 11.1.3
        19 October 2014 at 1:54 pm

        “I disagree with those who are saying ‘it wasn’t made clear enough’ because it was very clear that IMP were not going to be invited to the table of power.”

        What Robertson, Little and co appear to mean is that IMP should have been excluded from any agreement, not just part of the power game. I thought DC was clear enough – IMP wouldn’t be part of any coalition, but he left the way open for support on C and S.

        Ironically Little refused to give a clear answer when asked directly if Mana held a seat and would make the difference between Labour being able to form govt or not, would Little choose Mana or to be opposition? He actually gives such a weaselly answer that I have to take the whole “it wasn’t made clear enough” stuff as rhetoric.

        http://thestandard.org.nz/qa-with-andrew-little/#comment-908883

        • blue leopard 11.1.3.1
          19 October 2014 at 1:59 pm

          Actually, what you have shared highlights the exact point that Tautoko made at comment 11.1.2 & DTB’s point too.

          They are actually boxing themselves into a very awkward corner by pursuing this narrative re IMP

          • Colonial Rawshark 11.1.3.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 5:45 pm

            They are buying into, and extending, the right wing’s framing on IMP. Everyone is desperate to be onside with what they think is the top 20% of NZ society.

        • Chooky 11.1.3.2
          19 October 2014 at 7:39 pm

          @ weka ….yes at least David Cunliffe was honest…but even he could have said thankyou very much IMP for your support ( unlike his ‘buddies’ who seem to think IMP is the devil incarnate)

          …and it was a non issue as to whether Mana/int would be included in caucus because they only ever wanted to be in a position to support a Labour led Left coalition govt !…( Harre and Harawira made this very clear)

          …the Labour Party by its insularity and male competitiveness and buying into the right wing propaganda has shot its own voters down and alienated further once Labour voters (now nonvoters) ….and destroyed any chance it had of forming a Labour led coalition govt…..pathetic !

          Mahuta as leader is the Labour Party’s only chance left

      • RedBaronCV 11.1.4
        19 October 2014 at 1:57 pm

        “There is all this talk of Labour needing to appeal to blokes, or people who are disturbed by Dotcom, or ‘centrists’ – but there are very few comments on how taking such a stance might put other sections of NZ off supporting them”

        Now this is a statement that I couldn’t agree with more. There seems to be all this emphasis on chasing the male vote, but frankly everytime someone sounds off about gaggles of gays, feminists , man bans etc, do they think that people who fit these demographics and vote for Labour are going to continue to do so in the face of their interests being sledged?

        If it is a position the party is comfortable with then defend it and go over to the attack. ” Well Nact manages to have an effective woman ban, Best person for the job=Murray McCully ROFL “

        • KJT 11.1.4.1
          19 October 2014 at 4:40 pm

          Yep. always thought they should just front it, instead of apologising.

          Say. “Left wing parties are about inclusion, not exclusion. We are for everyone, not just for a few wealthy foreigners, and their NZ employees”.
          (unlike National Inc)”.

          • blue leopard 11.1.4.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 7:27 pm

            KJT,

            Unsure whether the comment re ‘wealthy foreigners’ would have worked with regard to the Dotcom hysteria (lol) but your example shows how simple it actually is.

            Which begs the question, why aren’t they doing it??

            • KJT 11.1.4.1.1.1
              19 October 2014 at 7:48 pm

              I saw Labour back down so many times, when “public opinion” really the opinion of a few self appointed media gurus, had a go at them.

              (Pam Corkery was correct).

              Cunliffe’s “holiday” was a good example.

              But it happened on so many other things that it must have been an undermining from within. I don’t think any of the guilty should be rewarded with the leadership.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                19 October 2014 at 9:15 pm

                You point to lots of big problems. The wrong advisors giving the wrong advice; and Cunliffe himself trying to play the cautious (and ultimately weak looking) “I promise I’ll never do it again” tack too often instead of coming out and front footing issues with gusto.

                • greywarshark …
                  19 October 2014 at 9:36 pm

                  colonial rawhark 9.15
                  Winston could have led Labour okay certainly with him “front footing issues with gusto.” Either Labour join up with NZF or members who want to get a Party that is ABL should think about going to him. He might not be tops, he is likely to be better, he could not be worse.

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    19 October 2014 at 10:53 pm

                    I think the research is showing that a fair number of Labour voters have started to move to Winston First. But what happens when he disappears, after one or two more terms?

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                      19 October 2014 at 10:56 pm

                      The ‘new’ generation of oldies can establish the Robertardern Party?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      19 October 2014 at 11:04 pm

                      Grant Robertson Leader, Jacinda Ardern Deputy, David Parker Finance. Crosby Textor will be down on their knees every night praying that this happens.

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                      19 October 2014 at 11:07 pm

                      Ok, this will be a mouthful: the Robertardenker Party.

                      Maybe easier just to call it the Gracinda Party.

                      I might even put make a donation for a kickstart.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      19 October 2014 at 11:14 pm

                      Definitely hard to swallow.

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                      20 October 2014 at 4:34 pm

                      Thanks for the reference to the comment here on The Standard from Twitter [https://twitter.com/Tat_Loo/status/524036381496991744].

                      I can confirm that I had never come across (heard, read or been told by anyone) the portmanteau ‘Gracinda’. It arose in the course of my comments above. Before I typed it, I did also google to find out if anyone else had come up with it in NZ (answer: no).

                      Having said that, it would have been quite possible that someone else had mentioned it, offline or online. It is not uncommon for two or more people to think up the same thing, whether next to each other or some distance apart, at about the same time.

                      I do not have any need for acknowledgments, although it would be nice for The Standard to get some publicity since it is an influential blogsite … which some politicians do not read.

                      As an aside, I did think up various other portmanteau, eg Jacant (but that sounded like vacant, which some might think quite appropriate but I didn’t have the heart to have the two of them stigmatised), Grandern (a bit too majestic for my taste) and even Grajac (that didn’t roll off the tongue very smoothly, unless if the ‘j’ was pronounced more like a ‘y’, but it still risked having ‘off’ attached to it). So I rejected those formulations.

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                      20 October 2014 at 4:52 pm

                      Oh by the way, has anyone seen the copy of Woman’s Day with Gracinda as sartorially coordinated puppy twins in mint?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      20 October 2014 at 5:19 pm

                      Ah-ha thanks for the insight into your creative process. And yeah, that mint green thing was a bit ill. In several respects.

                      Got to hand it to Grant though, the guy knows about the importance of soft media, and prepares well in advance for it. (That shoot must have been done several days ago, surely).

                    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                      20 October 2014 at 5:19 pm

                      For the record, Grinda was considered but was dismissed straight [hah] away.

                      Grinda would have sounded too much like the gay dating app, Grindr (launched circa 2009) which preceded Tinder (circa 2011).

                      As you can see, quite a bit of creative thought, and weighing of pos & neg had gone into all this during a recreational moment late yesterday evening!

                      Gra+ might consider that tying up his political fortunes with +cinda might be an advantage but somehow that seems quite doubtful when it comes to really unifying Labour’s broad-base of membership-union-caucus.

                    • greywarshark …
                      20 October 2014 at 9:18 pm

                      Colonial rawshark
                      That’s then. Drowning men grasp at straws. Who knows where we’ll be in one or two terms? Radical rethinks are needed now.
                      We don’t even need a bailey bridge, just some stepping stones will get us above and away from the outgoing tide.

        • blue leopard 11.1.4.2
          19 October 2014 at 7:30 pm

          +1 RedBaron & LOL re that McCully comment!

  12. greywarshark 12
    19 October 2014 at 1:49 pm

    @ blue leopard 12.25 pm
    I think Labour should spell out their policies on a level playing field basis. Set out the policy headings in which they will be directing their interests and then list what they will be working on under.
    These vague promises ‘ a pocketful of mumbles’ that leave them fairly free to play pooh sticks and run to the other side of the bridge to pick out which comes floating up first, don’t cut it with the peeps.

    So how would that go:
    1 Workers –
    Safety for physical workers, ie forestry, mine – looking at physical danger.
    Dairy workers etc looking at problems from food and water borne diseases.
    Health -Plenty there
    Remuneration – living wage
    Anti-social hour addition to wage
    Making wages a preferential item in failing businesses
    Wages to be paid daily for casual workers
    Wages to be paid weekly for those on rosters
    Wages to be paid in whole or part weekly for contractors
    Salaries to be paid weekly or monthly at the wish of the recipient over $50,000
    2 Housing
    3 Transport
    4 Health
    5 Employment, volunteer work, training, interactive community assistance ie old to
    youth and vice versa.
    6 Taxation, ways of distributing GST for distribution to regions infrastructure,
    petrol tax, tourism tax, bio border taxes. Portion of taxes to be available for
    human investment – training youth, assisting entrepreneurship, vitality in the
    economy etc
    7 Human relationships – assisting co-operation, managing personal emotions –
    less outbursts of anger, intolerance, violence.
    Fair treatment related to need, women’s health and wellbeing, men’s and
    children’s.
    Welfare – a proper treatment of beneficiaries, so each person is putting something into the Country’s social system as they can manage. Parents should be getting plenty of help and receive training in parenting, which would gain them NCEA credits and be relevant to the ages of their children. They should be respected.
    Jail – the whole punishment system be looked at again. Most would be learning while in jail, educational, emotional IQ and skills of all useful sorts.
    8 Retaining business and jobs in the country. Understanding big business
    objectives and capping or assisting them as suitable.
    Small business – micro individuals and encouraging them to be effective
    and honest. Mid-small – enabling them to increase market share, plan and
    gain recognition in their area or region and assist in building angel funds
    from citizens around them, who would then have agreements to have first
    option on the sale of a business. (This to stop business shifting away or
    falling into foreign ownership with profit becoming debt or going offshore.)

    And so on. These are just from the top of my head. Have we ever seen this sort of list issued to the public by political parties? Summarised, with bullet points and more details available on line for each bullet point. With an invitation to belong to an interest group that could bring up pros and cons and their own vision to help think through the focus groups perhaps knee jerk feelings about policies.

    Seeing the thoughts and intentions written would put paid to the idea that it was a one-trick pony Party, only concerned about unions, ‘identity politics’, and ultimately have no muscular
    ideas for creating a thriving, prosperous country. And would provide something solid for the bovine NZ male to tackle and which would stand up to spear tackles that would kill off brittle, ideological policies full of only hopeful thinking.
    edited

    • blue leopard 12.1
      19 October 2014 at 2:17 pm

      Oh heck, I couldn’t stop laughing re your phrase ‘a pocketful of mumbles’ lol that so sums it up.

      An easy-to-read list of policies sounds good but there is part of me that feels this was much what was available on their website and there was something that Andrew Little said about not having a policy for everything that struck a chord for me.

      I mean, just look at what National presented – nothing but ‘Trust me [John Key], I/we know what I am/we are doing’ and New Zealanders bought it! 🙁

      Just playing with ideas here – I personally like a clear list but have a bit of doubt due to realising what I like and what a majority of NZ voters seem to like are quite, well, incompatible…

      • greywarshark 12.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 9:45 pm

        Blue l 2.17
        Yes true. But laying it out under those headings would get rid of the ferals ‘we want a reel man’ thing. The next thing they go on about is concentrating identity politics, and there are a few in town who think that. It would be important to prove to everyone that you were going to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

        And about the election and National’s lack of anything solid. Labour was in the traditional role of the woman, having to be twice as good to be considered and appreciated. Coming in second was not an option, clever thinking, persuasive committed upbeat needed rather than earnest. Positive was the right feeling to emphasise, but it should have applied to the tone of voice that the policies were presented in. As a slogan, it was a lot less than the catchphrase remembering WW1 or 2 – Keep Calm and Carry On.

        Pocketful of mumbles – Paul Simon The Fighter/Boxer

        • Colonial Rawshark 12.1.1.1
          19 October 2014 at 10:58 pm

          Labour did not lose the election because of policy. An extra 100K votes between Labour and Greens, and the left would have owned that election. Oh yeah, cutting deals to bring in IMP and get rid of Dunne would have been very helpful as well.

  13. lprent 13
    19 October 2014 at 2:18 pm

    At the kings arms. Didn’t know it was here.

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 13.1
      19 October 2014 at 2:29 pm

      Your standard [pun] Sunday arvo moderating at the same ol’ place. As happens, Grant chose that venue. Has he come up to say hello?

    • lprent 13.2
      19 October 2014 at 2:38 pm

      Young crowd. Very few old hands.

      • Bill Drees 13.2.1
        19 October 2014 at 3:48 pm

        YOUNG in Labour means what age band to you?
        Under 50?
        Nash claims to be young at nearly 50!

        • greywarshark 13.2.1.1
          20 October 2014 at 9:22 pm

          Nash looked younger than that to me. I was a bit puzzled as to how he had managed so much backing for a young guy. But now I find he’s about 50. Does he dye his hair?

    • lprent 13.3
      19 October 2014 at 2:46 pm

      Education predictably gets a cheer.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 13.3.1
        19 October 2014 at 2:54 pm

        I cheered when Laila Harre announced Internet Party’s education policy too. I wonder how different Grant’s position is from IP’s.

        • lprent 13.3.1.1
          19 October 2014 at 3:06 pm

          I will see if they have a ecopy of their speech notes.

          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 13.3.1.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 4:00 pm

            Thanks.

            I am trying to figure out what they might have been cheering about, besides hearing the word ‘education’, from the speech that has been uploaded:

            http://www.grantrobertson.co.nz/campaign_launch_speech

            • karol 13.3.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2014 at 6:04 pm

              Robertson can make some very impressive speeches. But I can’t help thinking this launch is more image than substance.

              And Robertson use of Ardern seems to highlight his weakness – ie that he won’t be able to win the leadership on his own – needs her image at his side.

              • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark …
                19 October 2014 at 11:31 pm

                It was the launch of Aucklington’s most famous super politico-couple with the names of the two dynamic politicians to be combined to forge a new beltway moniker: Gracinda.

                • Colonial Rawshark …
                  19 October 2014 at 11:43 pm

                  You are bad, bad, bad. Gracinda! lol

                  And Robertson use of Ardern seems to highlight his weakness – ie that he won’t be able to win the leadership on his own – needs her image at his side.

                  I don’t get this. One little bit. Ardern has no support in caucus independent of Robertson. Grant picking her shifts absolutely zero caucus votes his way, off Little, Parker and Mahuta.

                  So he must think that naming Ardern will bring over general membership votes and/or union delegates votes. Really? Why? Because she is a woman and brings gender balance to the top table?

                  I think its a serious miscalculation.

    • lprent 13.4
      19 October 2014 at 2:49 pm

      He has the right idea about when you start a an election campaign. Right now.

      Announced Jacinda as preferred deputy.

    • lprent 13.5
      19 October 2014 at 2:55 pm

      Good stump speech by J…

  14. bearded rawshark 14
    19 October 2014 at 3:22 pm

    Go the Greens in the UK!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/18/green-party-general-election-12-seats-england

    This acts as a reminder that with 10.7% the Greens here can get 14 seats out of 120.

    In the ridiculous FPP system in the UK they are dreaming of getting 12 seats out of of over 600.

  15. Clean_power 15
    19 October 2014 at 5:13 pm

    Despite of the format, Robertson was the most convincing of the candidates this morning. Little came across badly and will have to improve his presentation skills. Mahuta was a non-event, while Parker came second.

    My prediction: Robertson to win the leadership contest. Ardern will be his Deputy.

    • Lanthanide 15.1
      19 October 2014 at 7:13 pm

      Robertson will have an up-hill climb with the unions.

      Robertson and Little’s support in Caucus and Members will likely mirror each other. Nanaia likely to come 4th, with DP 3rd, and their subsequent preference votes are probably more likely to go to Little than Robertson.

      So in the end, I think Little will pull through a little ahead of Robertson, due to the unions,

      • Colonial Rawshark 15.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 8:36 pm

        I seriously doubt that Robertson will get the most first preference votes from the membership, too. Lots of insiders realise that he was right at the heart of the leadership instability over the last few years.

  16. ExStatic 16
    19 October 2014 at 6:34 pm

    Fascinating over at The Blog That Shall Not Be Mentioned, Slater on a crusade against National and Key. Apparently a paid hit by Collins. This will get interesting……

    • BM 16.1
      19 October 2014 at 7:19 pm

      Slater is now persona non grata and isn’t taking it well.

      Expect more of the same drivel from Slater, which will only make his situation worse.

      • Paul 16.1.1
        19 October 2014 at 7:34 pm

        Don’t read his blog.

      • ExStatic 16.1.2
        19 October 2014 at 8:24 pm

        His “mods” appear sociopathic, the whole thing is falling over.

        • ropata mako shark 16.1.2.1
          19 October 2014 at 8:55 pm

          It’s a clickbait farm, except for the paid PR pieces or nasty hit jobs. Avoid.

          • ExStatic 16.1.2.1.1
            19 October 2014 at 9:01 pm

            Fascinating, some of his regular commenters asked him if his attack on Key is a paid hit by Collins. Nek minnit they’re all banned! Must be true then?

            • BM 16.1.2.1.1.1
              19 October 2014 at 9:09 pm

              His blog is shit now, the majority of his “articles” are just stories from the herald or stuff where he’s added a sentence or two giving his opinion on the linked story.

              The only original stuff he does is where he writes a piece on how awesome he is and how he’s the all knowing grand master of politics who makes or break governments, lol what an ego.

              He’s either losing/lost his marbles or is completely fucking deluded.

              • RedLogixFormes …
                19 October 2014 at 11:08 pm

                I suspect he relied on material substantially sourced by others.

                Yes he may have given some of it a ‘once over lightly’ to put his own spin and style on it – but if you think about it, Slater could never have sustained that level of posting if it has been all his own work.

                • ropata mako shark …
                  19 October 2014 at 11:40 pm

                  Hager’s books shows that Slater does exactly that: nice fluffy press releases published verbatim from paying clients, or character assassination to order.

                  The MSM love his cartoonish villain antics and made-to-order “leaks”. Sucked in by the lure of the big scoop, and too thick to stop and think “Cui bono?”

                  Key has probably seen the writing on the wall and told Slater to fuck right off along with his mate Crusher. So Slater has spat the dummy.

      • ExStatic 16.1.3
        19 October 2014 at 9:02 pm

        He is poison.

        • Rodel 16.1.3.1
          19 October 2014 at 9:42 pm

          Keep telling us what’s going on with the Slater. I won’t log in to his site but still have a schadenfreudeish interest by proxy.

  17. Dan1 17
    19 October 2014 at 8:11 pm

    My wife and I worked our arses off for Labour this last election.
    None of the present candidates look to unite the Labour Party of old. We might go fishing instead.
    Head office has much to answer for.
    When local candidates in the Christchurch area spend election meeting time rubbishing Cunliffe, I think we are stuffed.
    I am not a Cunliffe supporter necessarily but he was our elected leader.

  18. les 18
    19 October 2014 at 8:16 pm

    so Robertson is running on Ardern as his dep…its a race for Mahuta…between Parker and Little as dep.

  19. Draco T Bastard 19
    19 October 2014 at 8:28 pm

    Real broadband

    While AT&T and Verizon argue over an FCC proposal that would set 10Mbps as America’s new minimum speed to qualify as “broadband,” South Korea is positioning itself to introduce 10Gbps fiber service.

    Now you have some idea as to what we’re missing out on due to privatisation.

  20. Clemgeopin 20
    19 October 2014 at 9:59 pm

    WHY RICHARD BRONSON TURNED VEGETARIAN:

    Very interesting article here:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/well-good/teach-me/10635011/Why-Richard-Branson-beefs-about-giving-up-meat

    One study earlier this year found that eating less red meat would be a better way for people to cut carbon emissions than giving up their cars. Becoming a vegetarian is just one option. Looking at sustainable meat-production practices, including lab-grown meat, is another.

    “Today we maintain a global herd of 60 billion animals to provide our meat, dairy, eggs and leather goods,” says bioprinting entrepreneur, Andras Forgacs in this TED talk about “culturing” meat and leather without the animal. “And over the next few decades, as the world’s population expands to 10 billion, this will need to nearly double to 100 billion animals.”

    • Colonial Rawshark 20.1
      19 October 2014 at 11:10 pm

      The world population isn’t going to reach 10B. Or if it does, it will only stay at the level briefly: maybe one generation.

      Liquid fossil fuels to become unaffordable for most circa 2040, coal circa 2060, and massive climate change effects hitting around the same time. That will mark the end of industrial food production and global mass food trade.

  21. Murray Rawshark 21
    20 October 2014 at 3:05 am

    This is very interesting, and has the ring of truth. As far as military stuff goes, I think I agree with the war nerd.
    http://pando.com/2014/10/16/the-war-nerd-nobody-could-have-predicted-islamic-states-retreat-from-kobane-except-me/

  22. r0b 22
    20 October 2014 at 5:16 pm

    Note that David Parker has dropped back in to his Q&A post for some final comments at 40.1