Open Mike 20/06/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 20th, 2018 - 160 comments
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160 comments on “Open Mike 20/06/2018 ”

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  1. DH 1
    20 June 2018 at 8:00 am

    Here’s a reasonable argument for increasing the prison population….

    “Annah Stretton: Women in prison can be given their best chance to change their life”
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12064187

    It mirrors closely what I thought could be a possible approach for male offenders.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1
      20 June 2018 at 8:18 am

      Oh, pleeze. Female prisoners can’t even get enough clothing budget to get a decent bra. Instead they rely on charity for a basic need or its sag city.

      I really fucking doubt that money for rehab is going to flood in or that anyone without a high degree of self interest will care.

      Why not hold prison up as the next big self help craze? Book yourself in “because its your best chance”. What a load of shit.

      • DH 1.1.1
        20 June 2018 at 8:40 am

        Do you not think perhaps we might have the (failed) system we do because everyone is so negative about new approaches?

        The author has spent time in the system, she’s observed and identified what she thought were many of the problems with our penal and justice system and she’s offered a possible solution. Her views were expressed in the timing & context of a new Goverment claiming a desire to reform the penal system.

        You immediately leap to knock it down without even trying to critique it.

        • mauī 1.1.1.1
          20 June 2018 at 1:06 pm

          Though this isn’t a new approach, many kiwis believe prisoners are already helped into work and are provided with a support network during time in prison. The fact that outside organisations are left to do this work should be telling us something.

          I have no doubt this org does great work, but there is no mention that prison might not be the best place to start a rehabilitation program. Women are currently housed in men’s prisons because the system is overloaded and they are separated from their families too, and those are just a couple of issues that spring to mind…

    • Sabine 1.2
      20 June 2018 at 10:53 am

      is Anna Stretton trying to get some cheaper machinists for her overpriced wares?

  2. Sanctuary 2
    20 June 2018 at 8:36 am

    Let’s catch Mike Hosking out in a lazy lie, shall we?

    Right wing lie: “…. As a kid who grew up in the 1970s and had holidays (note the plural – Sanc) stalled because of the pre-determined Cook Strait ferry action, it was part of the social landscape of my formative years…”

    Now some facts:

    According to the NZ History website:
    “…Between 1986 to 1991 only 378 out of 21,654 sailings were cancelled because of industrial action. ..”

    https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/cook-strait-rail-ferries/strikes-and-strandings

    • Barfly 2.1
      20 June 2018 at 8:42 am

      Sure low % but you do realize that is aprox 76 sailings a year cancelled by strike action?

      • SpaceMonkey 2.1.1
        20 June 2018 at 12:54 pm

        How many of those 76 sailings were during a holiday period? Is the more imporatant percentage. For strike action to be effective it generally has to be disruptive.

    • Puckish Rogue 2.2
      20 June 2018 at 8:43 am

      From the same page:

      “Several times between 1971 and 1983 the government launched ‘Operation Pluto’, using state domestic airline and air force planes to fly passengers and cars between Wellington and Blenheim during prolonged industrial disputes.”

    • Pete 2.3
      20 June 2018 at 8:51 am

      The hidden dangers of industrial action exposed!

      Some kid had his holiday in the ’70s disrupted and he turns out to have the mindset/outlook of Hosking in 2018. Now there’s scope for some deep psychological research.

      • Baba Yaga 2.3.1
        20 June 2018 at 11:36 am

        The fact that Sanctuary used data from a different time period than Hosking was referring to makes you both look a bit silly.

    • DH 2.4
      20 June 2018 at 8:51 am

      They did have a habit of timing their strikes for holiday periods. Those cancelled sailings might seem few but IIRC they were often at the most inconvenient times for people. They weren’t very popular.

      • John up North 2.4.1
        20 June 2018 at 9:13 am

        As with today’s employers mindset, stall, stall, stall, delay, deflect and lie until the employee’s and their representatives have no other option but to take action. And quite often the employers got very bolshy right about holiday time to inflict the worst impact on the general public so as to shine negatively on workers (bit like the holidaying folks themselves) standing up for their rights.

    • andrew murray 2.5
      20 June 2018 at 8:58 am

      Is the fact that your data is out by a decade on hoskings musings significant?

    • solkta 2.6
      20 June 2018 at 9:01 am

      While i don’t want to be seen to be defending Hosking, how does this catch him out in a lie? He said “as a kid who grew up in the 1970s” so your figures starting in 1986, when he was 21, are meaningless.

      I’m only a couple of years younger and i can remember that ferry strikes were a regular thing at holiday times. The site you link to states:

      Either way, industrial relations between management and unions were not always good, especially in the 1970s. … Several times between 1971 and 1983 the government launched ‘Operation Pluto’, using state domestic airline and air force planes to fly passengers and cars between Wellington and Blenheim during prolonged industrial disputes.

      That really is a bullshit site, saying that the 70s were worst but then quoting figures for the 80s only.

    • Chris T 2.7
      20 June 2018 at 9:52 am

      Forgive if this is a stupid question, but how does quoting stats from the mid 80’s disprove someones point about the 70s?

      • ankerawshark 2.7.1
        20 June 2018 at 11:57 am

        Re Mike Hoskings missing out on holidays in the 70’s……………cry me a river………boo hoo not. He needs to go and visit families living in cars or mouldy houses and then he would have some genuine grievance (on their behalf) and of course one of the strands in the rope that has led us to our current situation re housing and poverty is the barbaric labour relations laws and the fact that we pay such a useless waste of space (Hoskings) so much money while others get so little.

    • james 2.8
      20 June 2018 at 10:09 am

      Here are some more facts for you.

      “In 1923, jockey Frank Hayes won a race at Belmont Park in New York despite being dead — he suffered a heart attack mid-race, but his body stayed in the saddle until his horse crossed the line for a 20–1 outsider victory.”

      and that is just about as relevant as the facts you are quoting trying to catch Hosking out in a lie.

      • Robert Guyton 2.8.1
        20 June 2018 at 10:34 am

        Hosking has been dead in the saddle all these years?
        I knew it!

      • veutoviper 2.8.2
        20 June 2018 at 1:00 pm

        Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        If only some people here would realise that you actually have a good sense of humour – even if you are one of ‘them righties’!

    • Gabby 2.9
      20 June 2018 at 10:28 am

      He grew up in the 70s and you’re giving figures from the late 80s sanky? What gives?

    • Baba Yaga 2.10
      20 June 2018 at 11:34 am

      At the risk of ruining your day, you data is not for the period Hosking was referring to. “Between 1986 to 1991” is not the 1970’s.

      • alwyn 2.10.1
        20 June 2018 at 12:18 pm

        Leave Sanctuary alone.
        He has realised he screwed up with his yarn and has returned to this site and made a most fulsome apology to both Hosking and the readers of this blog.
        He has completely accepted that he was wrong.
        Well, I’m sure he means to do it when he has a bit of time.
        Or not.

    • Enough is Enough 2.11
      20 June 2018 at 11:55 am

      Are you drunk.

      That is the worst “fact check” ever.

    • Naki man 2.12
      20 June 2018 at 1:34 pm

      “Let’s catch Mike Hosking out in a lazy lie, shall we”
      That’s an epic fail Sanctuary

      https://coub.com/view/tbi2c

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.13
      20 June 2018 at 5:11 pm

      “Only”…..

      an average of 71 a year. Or one every 5 days on average. At least once a week on average.

      Ahhh the good old days right sanc. No admittance to public transport and vital infrastructure in an island nation without your cloth cap on.

      Wanker

  3. Nick 3
    20 June 2018 at 9:16 am

    It is mik hoskin so not worthy of anyone’s time, don’t you think?

    • Sabine 4.1
      20 June 2018 at 11:09 am

      ha, maybe we need a sentencing reform and a prison reform.

      but is there money to be made? Oh noes!

    • marty mars 4.2
      20 June 2018 at 11:12 am

      Yep – and nice that you recognize that. Could be handy as a filter for the doss put out by the gnats.

      • Puckish Rogue 4.2.1
        20 June 2018 at 11:24 am

        If PPP can make things better and cheaper then I’m all for it, a view apparently shared by both Labour and National

        • marty mars 4.2.1.1
          20 June 2018 at 11:33 am

          Can’t see too many options and I don’t like Davis. Inherited problems – bloody gnats.

        • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2
          20 June 2018 at 11:36 am

          The potential exists, but not the discipline to realise it.

          The Korean government makes PPPs reasonably frequently. Private companies that don’t meet spec get restructured. If they’re lucky.

          Consider the lax treatment of P testing fraudsters. These people made a lucrative business from pretending to expertise they did not possess. Other fraudsters face more substantial punishment.

          • Puckish Rogue 4.2.1.2.1
            20 June 2018 at 11:58 am

            What gets me about politicians in general (both left and right) is the blatant bollix about getting back into power

            A party will promise anything even though they know that chances are they won’t be able to implement since they have to negotiate after the election

            So now its not breaking election promises its “having to negotiate”

            Yeah National will do it as well and the cycle will continue

            • solkta 4.2.1.2.1.1
              20 June 2018 at 12:02 pm

              Well they can’t negotiate a coalition agreement before an election. How would that work?

              • Puckish Rogue …
                20 June 2018 at 12:12 pm

                Couldn’t happen of course but wouldn’t it be nice if parties had to announce who they’d work with, and then announce the policies, before the election

            • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.2.1.2
              20 June 2018 at 12:02 pm

              A minor party could honestly say, “If we were the dominant party, we’d…” as it is, the smaller players can’t really claim much at all, other than to say they’d stay as true to their principles and claims as possible.
              As possible.
              That’s why I like The Greens.

            • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2.1.3
              20 June 2018 at 12:14 pm

              Although there is some truth to that, we on the left are less tolerant of liars in general.

              If Labour cannot make a credible show of trying to keep their promises, they won’t just lose the election, they’ll be out for three or more terms, till conspicuous liars retire.

              What’s more, the Key Kleptocracy went much further in normalizing dishonesty in power than has been conventional in NZ.

              There are promises that circumstances force politicians to break – and there is flagrant and unrepentant bullshit with no basis in reality – like everything the Gnats ever did.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                20 June 2018 at 12:30 pm

                (I’m not disagreeing with you) As I see it if voters “ok” blatant hypocrisy (on both sides) then really the only people to blame are ourselves

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.3
          20 June 2018 at 12:16 pm

          If PPP can make things better and cheaper

          They can’t. By logic it must be more expensive:

          1. The private sector has higher financing costs
          2. The private sector seeks to extract profits from it
          3. The number of people employed must be the same at the same rate
          4. A government MoW can buy in far greater bulk and thus get far better economies of scale

          And then there’s what’s actually happening

          https://bankwatch.org/public-private-partnerships
          https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/news/academic-public-private-partnerships-cost-more-deliver-less/

          Getting the private sector to do government services costs more and we get less. Privatisation was nothing more than a way to increase the bludging capability of the rich on the poor.

          • Puckish Rogue 4.2.1.3.1
            20 June 2018 at 12:25 pm

            The problem with something like the railways was that, as a monopoly, well lets just say that they didn’t have a reputation for customer service or proper handling of good and that the MOW (and others) became dumping grounds and were used to hide true unemployment figures

            Having said that the social costs may actually be greater than the monetary costs (thanks Labour) so as i said previously I wouldn’t mind seeing a limited return of the MOW, maybe to handle large scale works

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.3.1.1
              20 June 2018 at 12:50 pm

              The problem with something like the railways was that, as a monopoly, well lets just say that they didn’t have a reputation for customer service or proper handling of good and that the MOW (and others) became dumping grounds and were used to hide true unemployment figures

              Which is just the BS that the privatisers told everyone.

              I’m not saying that the system was perfect but the accusations were based solely upon anecdote. One person in the right place and the right job and suddenly everyone who works for the government is tarred as being scum in the MSM.

              And a large part of the reason why I say that out telecommunications are ten years behind where they should be is because of the thousands of people made redundant from Telecom after the sale. Those thousands of people represent the work that hasn’t been done.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                20 June 2018 at 1:02 pm

                Then you don’t remember how long it took to buy a phone before Telecom was privatised

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  20 June 2018 at 1:46 pm

                  Yes I do – I worked for Telecom.

                  You couldn’t buy a phone – you rented them.

                  To get one installed would take a couple of days to a few weeks depending upon where you were and the work that needed to be done. To connect a phone required sending someone around to the exchange to connect it and sending someone out to the house to connect it there as well which would take a few days as the labour got organised. If you were somewhere which didn’t have a phone line at all (and there were still many such places) then it would take weeks as we organised running several kilometres of line.

                  Part of the problem here was that the MSM would ring up the PO and ask how long to get a phone connected. The PO would then call the local PO communications branch (The two were actually separate entities) and get the standard reply of one month to six weeks. This, of course, had a built in fudge factor due to the high labour intensity and the fact that shit happpens.

                  I also worked for Telecom in the 2000s where I learned that in some places it would take months or longer to get ADSL connected. This despite the fact that we started running fibre out to the cabinet in the 1980s. That latter bit got stopped when Telecom got sold.

                  So, after decades of experience in the Real World I can assure you that things have actually got worse since the sale of Telecom. We get less and it costs more.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    20 June 2018 at 1:51 pm

                    “You couldn’t buy a phone – you rented them.”

                    – Thats worse than today

                    “To get one installed would take a couple of days to a few weeks depending upon where you were and the work that needed to be done.”

                    – A few weeks to get a phone line installed whereas now you can get any electrician to do the job

                    Things have gotten better as now if you don’t want Telecom you can go elsewhere, you have choice (unless you’re out in the wop wops)

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:01 pm

                      Thats worse than today

                      No it’s not. Why would you even want to own a phone?

                      A few weeks to get a phone line installed whereas now you can get any electrician to do the job

                      There’s more to installing a phone than just the house wiring. You can’t get the electrician to run the cable from the exchange and if you don’t have that then it could take weeks, months or even not happen at all as rural farmers are now finding out.

                      Things have gotten better as now if you don’t want Telecom you can go elsewhere

                      ?
                      And that choice cost you more without any added benefits.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:06 pm

                      “No it’s not. Why would you even want to own a phone?”

                      – Handy if the mobile network goes down plus for a lot of people of the last 30 odd years its been their main form of communication

                      “You can’t get the electrician to run the cable from the exchange and if you don’t have that then it could take weeks, months or even not happen at all as rural farmers are now finding out.”

                      – Unfortunately that’s, to me, of part of the deal in living rurally

                      “And that choice cost you more without any added benefits.”

                      – Personally speaking I pay less money for more services then i ever have

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:39 pm

                      Handy if the mobile network goes down plus for a lot of people of the last 30 odd years its been their main form of communication

                      If the mobile network goes down then the phone still isn’t going to work even if you own it.

                      Unfortunately that’s, to me, of part of the deal in living rurally

                      But it wouldn’t be if telecommunications were still a state service.

                      Personally speaking I pay less money for more services then i ever have

                      I doubt that you’re doing a proper comparison or even have the slightest idea as to how privatisation has made things more expensive for you. Take that owning the phone that you’re so concerned about.

                      My present mobile phone is a couple of years old but it was actually released back in 2014. It’s updated to Android 7.1.1 but it’s never going to update Android 8. This means to say that it’s going to become a security threat to the entire network in the near future if it isn’t already one. To counter this threat a state phone service simply send me a new one in the mail but as I own it it means that I have to buy a new one. The phone is actually quite a good one and will last me several more years – years of being a security threat which is going to add more costs to maintaining the network and those added costs get placed on to you.

                      Then there’s the profit of course. Profit costs a huge amount in work that’s delayed or simply not done so that the bludging shareholders can have more for nothing.

                      And added competition costs more too. More bureaucracy to pay for, more network infrastructure that’s simply not needed and, of course, more bank interest and profits to pay for as well.

                      It all adds up and costs you far more than what you should be paying.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:44 pm

                      I appreciate the effort but you’ll never convince me that communism is the answer, unless the question is what is a form of government should we never try

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      20 June 2018 at 3:02 pm

                      And that’s where your ideology loses touch with reality.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      20 June 2018 at 3:10 pm

                      Says the guy championing communism, which has never worked anywhere ever

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

                • Stuart Munro …
                  20 June 2018 at 1:48 pm

                  That’s a crock.

                  I had several phones in under the old system – same day was the rule, the next day was the longest. And one of those was on Stewart Is. Telecom did not improve service in any way shape or form – the only reason it was the only successful privatization was technology developed elsewhere grew the market, and incompetent governments failed to break up their monopoly so they screwed consumers.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    20 June 2018 at 2:01 pm

                    https://teara.govt.nz/mi/telecommunications/print

                    But business customers in particular wanted more sophisticated telephone services which were available internationally, and households were often frustrated by the time it took to get a telephone.

                    Toll prices came down by 60% between 1987 and 1992. After 1987 anyone in New Zealand could wire up, repair or sell telecommunications equipment, though Telecom New Zealand maintained firm control over access to the network.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:23 pm

                      But business customers in particular wanted more sophisticated telephone services which were available internationally, and households were often frustrated by the time it took to get a telephone.

                      Which is actually a load of bollocks.

                      To get those more sophisticated telephone services required newer exchanges. We were putting them in as fast as possible but doing takes time and money – both of which was in short supply. And by the 1980s most phones were installed in a short time. The cables an exchanges could handle it.

                      Toll prices came down by 60% between 1987 and 1992. After 1987 anyone in New Zealand could wire up, repair or sell telecommunications equipment, though Telecom New Zealand maintained firm control over access to the network.

                      I’m always surprised by people who declaim the benefits of the market then complain about the market operating as expected. This leads me to think that these morons don’t actually know what the pricing system is for.

                      The pricing system in the market is to restrict use of limited resources.

                      If there’s only 50 lines going between Auckland and Wellington then you don’t actually want 51 people making calls and you can’t tell people don’t make calls and so you make the price high it so that people only make calls if they really, really need to.

                      With the fibre roll out in the 1980s those sorts of restrictions declined and so toll prices dropped. Simple market action.

                      Yep, it was technology that dropped prices – not the commercialisation and privatisation of Telecom.

                      I also remember going round to one of those houses that the electrician wired up – and cutting them off and blacklisting them. The idiot electrician had run the phone wires with the electrical wires and there was 75 volts of induced power in the house wiring which was causing havoc in the exchange. Would be interesting to know how much that idiot ended up costing his customers before he got it right.

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:59 pm

                      Telecom deliberately munted attempts to improve internet speed for years to retain earnings from toll calls.

                      And vicious turd Peter Shitcliffe dared to misappropriate our money to campaign against MMP.

                      Telecom’s history is odious, so bad they had to change their name

                • alwyn …
                  20 June 2018 at 1:53 pm

                  “to buy a phone”
                  You must be much younger than I am. When it was the New Zealand Post office that supplied the services you certainly weren’t allowed to connect your own phone to their lines. You had to use the phone they supplied. Mostly they were great big black clunkers.
                  It cost you more to rent a phone in a different colour.
                  Those were the days.
                  When I was first married and trying to get a phone in Wellington it took me about 5 months to get the phone connected. Even then I only got it after being screwed around for that long because I complained to the Minister about his departments stuff-ups.
                  Privatisation made the service much, much better.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    20 June 2018 at 2:06 pm

                    Mostly they were great big black clunkers.

                    Oh, come on – the type 100s weren’t that bad.

                    When I was first married and trying to get a phone in Wellington it took me about 5 months to get the phone connected. Even then I only got it after being screwed around for that long because I complained to the Minister about his departments stuff-ups.

                    Probably didn’t have cables running past you place or they were already at capacity. In other words, you’re complaining about physical reality and the time it takes to physically run several kilometres of cable to your place.

                    Privatisation made the service much, much better.

                    No, it didn’t.

                    • alwyn …
                      20 June 2018 at 2:28 pm

                      “Oh, come on – the type 100 s weren’t that bad.”
                      They were just a dream for the future.
                      I was talking about 1968 when they were rotary dialling. The ones you illustrate were something out of Science Fiction.
                      It was even older than this one. This illustration is much smaller than the one I was supplied with.
                      https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Zealand_Rotary_Telephone.jpg
                      Actually this link confirms my memory that it wasn’t until Telecom was started that you could use your own phone.

                      There were cables available and they weren’t at capacity.
                      The bloody Post Office kept losing track of the paperwork. The claimed, twice, that I hadn’t paid the deposit and that the time to get connected would have to restart from the date I proved that I really had paid them and I had a receipt. After the second case of this, when they told me it would now be a further 3 months, I wrote a letter of complaint to the Minister, and sent a copy to the Post Office Director General.

                      They would have got the letters on a Monday. I came home on Tuesday to find that the PO had turned up to install the phone and on Wednesday the phone went in. Then on the Thursday I received a letter from the Cabinet Minister saying he had instructed the Department to sort it out. I thought that really deserved a thank you and sent him one. From 3 months down to a couple of days.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:05 pm

                      a bit like fibre installs lol

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      20 June 2018 at 5:03 pm

                      @McFlock

                      I think Fibre’s even worse. I’ve been waiting since November for an install advertised as “in a couple of days”. Current promise is now sometime in July. Chorus – a screaming joke of a company only surviving through want of competition.

                    • One Two …
                      20 June 2018 at 5:37 pm

                      Draco, your assertions using Telecom as the example, are correct…

                      There is a reason why nationally owned telecomms providers were first draft fire sales back in the 80/90’s…

                      It was not for the benefit of the ‘customer’…

                      Private is not responsible for nor did private nor will private lead to ‘improvements’…

                      Facade!

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2.1.3.1.2
              20 June 2018 at 3:15 pm

              Privatisation and PPPs – extractive ‘industries’ that kick real costs “down the line”.

              An illusion of success: The consequences of British rail privatisation

              https://doi.org/10.1016/j.accfor.2014.10.001

              Highlights

              The article challenges narratives of the success of UK rail privatisation using accounting data from Network Rail and private train operating companies.

              Large government subsidies channelled through Network Rail have radically changed the appearance of railway finances.

              Lower track access charges levied by Network Rail have artificially inflated train operator profits, generating returns for the taxpayer and the illusion of financial self-sufficiency.

              This accounting fix has bolstered claims that rail privatisation has been a financial success.

              Abstract

              This article accounts for the British experiment with rail privatisation and how it has worked out economically and politically. The focus is not simply on profitability and public subsidy, but on the appearances which accounting arrangements create. The article scrutinises the Network Rail subsidy regime, which enables train operators to achieve fictitious profitability without increased direct state support. This enables supporters of privatisation to claim train operators produce a net gain for the British taxpayer. The claim forms the heart of a trade narrative which is employed by the industry and their political backers to deflect criticism and stymy reform.

            • Ed1 4.2.1.3.1.3
              20 June 2018 at 4:54 pm

              Railways was of course not a PPP – it was a government organisation. I suspect that the featherbedding has been overstated – certainly there were some fficienciess that were overdue, but many changes were only possible through changes in the external environment – possible more widely available and reliable telephone communications for example.

              As given in Draco’s post above PPPs cost more and deliver less – and experience since 2009 when one of those was written has only emphasised that. Some PPPs are “dressed up” with lower visible costs but with the expense of long terms “maintenance” contracts that delibver ongoing p[rofits to the private company.

              I was disappointed to hear that the current governmetj are using a PPP to build the new prison – the reason is however given in the 15 June Stuff article:
              “During Question Time on Thursday, Associate Finance Minister David Clark said: “there is clear evidence around the Government’s prior experimentation with PPPs that they did not work. There are a number of perverse outcomes, and this Government has steered clear thus far of any such foolishness.”

              When challenged on the Government’s decision to use a PPP for Waikeria, he said the decision was made because corrections – under the previous government – had already signed a $34 million PPP contract.”

              If a PPP appears to make the government accounts look better, you can be fairly certain that the fault lies with the accounting system.

          • saveNZ 4.2.1.3.2
            20 June 2018 at 2:04 pm

            Exactly Draco, PPP’s a just an accountancy and corporate welfare web that delivers at least 30%+ higher a price than if the government does it themselves. Why would you use something that you know will cost 30% more, unless you are a Moran or on the take??????

            “UK PFI debt now stands at over £300bn for projects with an original capital cost of £55bn”

            https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/30/pfi-britain-hospital-trust-debt-burden-tax

            “Conservatively estimated, the trusts appear to be paying a risk premium of about 30% of the total construction costs, just to get the hospitals built on time and to budget, a sum that considerably exceeds the evidence about past cost overruns.”

            For roads:

            This report: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-files/Society/documents/2004/11/24/PFI.pdf

            found that PPP “contracts are considerably more expensive than the cost of conventional procurement”, resulting in higher returns for the companies running the PPP’s compared to their industry peers.

            While hard to compare because of the opaque nature of many contracts and large amounts of subcontracting out, it looked like the actual cost of capital of the PPP’s was 11% compared to Treasure borrowing of 4.5% i.e. 6.5% higher. This is supposed to represent the cost of risk transfer but in practice there was no risk transfer so it’s money for nothing.

            “In conclusion, the road projects appear to be costing more than expected as reflected in net present costs that are higher than those identified by the Highways Agency (Haynes and Roden 1999), owing to rising traffic and contract changes. It is, however, impossible to know at this point whether or not VFM (value for money) has been or is indeed likely to be achieved because the expensive element of the service contract relates to maintenance that generally will not be required for many years.”

            Overall, for both roads and hospitals they concluded there was no risk transfer and not value for money.

            “The net result of all this is that while risk transfer is the central element in justifying VFM and thus PFI, our analysis shows that risk does not appear to have been transferred to the party best able to manage it. Indeed, rather than transferring risk to the private sector, in the case of roads DBFO has created additional costs and risks to the public agency, and to the public sector as a whole, through tax concessions that must increase costs to the taxpayer and/or reduce service provision. In the case of hospitals, PFI has generated extra costs to hospital users, both staff and patients, and to the Treasury through the leakage of the capital charge element in the NHS budget. In both roads and hospitals these costs and risks are neither transparent nor quantifiable. This means that it is impossible to demonstrate whether or not VFM has been, or indeed can be, achieved in these or any other projects.

            While the Government’s case rests upon value for money, including the cost of transferring risk, our research suggests that PFI may lead to a loss of benefits in kind and a redistribution of income, from the public to the corporate sector. It has boosted the construction industry, many of whose PFI subsidiaries are now the most profitable parts of their enterprises, and led to a significant expansion of the facilities management sector. But the main beneficiaries are likely to be the financial institutions whose loans are effectively underwritten by the taxpayers, as evidenced by the renegotiation of the Royal Armouries PFI (NAO 2001a).”

          • Bearded Git 4.2.1.3.3
            20 June 2018 at 2:20 pm

            yep draco….i cant believe Labour going with PPP….wtf?

    • Robert Guyton 4.3
      20 June 2018 at 11:56 am

      “Easy to criticise when in opposition but its a different story when in power”
      As demonstrated by National now.

    • ankerawshark 4.4
      20 June 2018 at 12:08 pm

      Pukish @ 4. your comment “easy to criticise when in opposition” now applies to your great love Judith…………..just saying.

      Although I prefer another commenters way of putting it.

      Arsonist starts fire,
      Then whines at fire fighters for not putting it out sooner and say’s it wasn’t that bigger fire anyway………………………….

      • Puckish Rogue 4.4.1
        20 June 2018 at 1:03 pm

        Judith is beyond reproach 🙂

        • ankerawshark 4.4.1.1
          20 June 2018 at 1:41 pm

          LOL Puckish @4.4.1…………………………..I know love is blind

          • Puckish Rogue 4.4.1.1.1
            20 June 2018 at 2:33 pm

            Inspiration struck me while i was in the shower, lathering myself up and thinking of Jude

            Inspiration in the form of song…I think its pretty good, I call it:

            She’s like the wind

            She’s like the wind through my tree
            She rides the night next to me
            She leads me through moonlight
            Only to burn me with the sun
            She’s taken my heart
            But she doesn’t know what she’s done

            Feel her breath on my face
            Her body close to me
            Can’t look in her eyes
            She’s out of my league
            Just a fool to believe
            I have anything she needs
            She’s like the wind
            I look in the mirror and all I see
            Is a young old man with only a dream
            Am I just fooling myself
            That she’ll stop the pain
            Living without her
            I’d go insane

            Feel her breath on my face
            Her body close to me
            Can’t look in her eyes
            She’s out of my league
            Just a fool to believe
            I have anything she needs
            She’s like the wind

            Feel your breath in my face
            Your body close to me
            Can’t look in your eyes
            You’re out of my league
            Just a fool to believe
            (Just a fool to believe) she’s like the wind
            Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
            She’s like the wind (just a fool to believe)
            Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
            She’s like the wind
            Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
            She’s like the wind
            Just a fool
            She’s like the wind
            She’s like the wind
            Just a fool
            She’s like the wind, just a fool

            • solkta 4.4.1.1.1.1
              20 June 2018 at 2:44 pm

              She’s Like the Wind
              Patrick Swayze

              She’s like the wind through my tree
              She rides the night next to me
              She leads me through moonlight
              Only to burn me with the sun
              She’s taken my heart
              But she doesn’t know what she’s done

              Feel her breath on my face
              Her body close to me
              Can’t look in her eyes
              She’s out of my league
              Just a fool to believe
              I have anything she needs
              She’s like the wind

              I look in the mirror and all I see
              Is a young old man with only a dream
              Am I just fooling myself
              That she’ll stop the pain
              Living without her
              I’d go insane

              Feel her breath on my face
              Her body close to me
              Can’t look in her eyes
              She’s out of my league
              Just a fool to believe
              I have anything she needs
              She’s like the wind

              Feel your breath in my face
              Your body close to me
              Can’t look in your eyes
              You’re out of my league
              Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
              She’s like the wind (just a fool to believe)
              Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
              She’s like the wind

              Just a fool to believe (just a fool to believe)
              She’s like the wind
              Just a fool
              She’s like the wind
              She’s like the wind
              Just a fool
              She’s like the wind, just a fool

              Songwriters: Patrick Swayze / Stacy Widelitz

              • Robert Guyton …
                20 June 2018 at 2:51 pm

                Swayze and Wildelitz must been in the shower with Pucky!!
                The music industry is so dirty!
                I feel for Pucky (but not in the shower!).

              • Puckish Rogue …
                20 June 2018 at 2:52 pm

                The lawsuit is sub judice so I can’t talk about it specifically but just to let you know I’ve had enough of every other person taking credit for my work and it ends here

                • Robert Guyton …
                  20 June 2018 at 2:58 pm

                  ‘parently “Gaudeamus Igitur” is Pucky’s.
                  “La Marseillaise” too, and “Happy Birthday”.
                  He’s not been served well by the industry, poor Puck.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    20 June 2018 at 3:00 pm

                    “Yankee Doodle”, “Song of the Volga Boatmen” – the list goes on.

                    • Brigid …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:20 pm

                      And I heard from a reliable source that “Three Blind Mice” is also on the list.
                      The inspiration, it is said, came from the Three Wise Monkeys. Alas Zoology seems not to be his strong suit, and his interpretation of the proverb is just a wee bit askew.

                      Nevermind, he can count to three.

                    • mac1 …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:36 pm

                      “The Volga Boatmen”. I wrote a song once, to that tune, which told the history of the Russian revolution in three verses.

                      “When Serge and I were young we went to live in Omsk
                      Where we spent our time, manufacturing bombsk.
                      Bombsk! Bombsk! Bombsk! Bombsk! Manufacturing bombs!

                      When Serge and I grew up, we went to live on Murmansk
                      Where we spent our time, hatching revolutionary plansk.
                      Plansk! Plansk! Plansk! Plansk! Hatching revolutionary plansk!

                      When Serge and I grew old, we went to live in Ototsk
                      Where we spent our time foiling counter-revolutionary plotsk.
                      Plotsk! Plotsk! Plotsk! Plotsk! Foiling counter-revolutionary plotsk!”

                      Balalaikas optional.

              • alwyn …
                20 June 2018 at 5:43 pm

                Good God.
                I thought that Puckish Rogue had taken some relatively normal poem and then turned it into a parody.
                Now you publish the original and I would have to say that he had actually improved it. How do these poems get written and who on earth publishes them? Or reads them for that matter?
                I think we should go back to the poetry of more normal times. Bring back the poems of my days at primary school.

                Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir,
                Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine,
                With a cargo of ivory,
                And apes and peacocks,
                Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.

                Stately Spanish galleon coming from the Isthmus,
                Dipping through the Tropics by the palm-green shores,
                With a cargo of diamonds,
                Emeralds, amythysts,
                Topazes, and cinnamon, and gold moidores.

                Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,
                Butting through the Channel in the mad March days,
                With a cargo of Tyne coal,
                Road-rails, pig-lead,
                Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.

                Wasn’t that better. As anything else would be better than Swayze.
                Or, as Mary Hopkins would have it a bit later on
                “Those were the days my friend”

          • Robert Guyton 4.4.1.1.2
            20 June 2018 at 2:48 pm

            Love seems indeed, to be blind…and has the memory of a goldfish – “swamp kauri? threatening journalists? What Chinese connection???”

        • Gabby 4.4.1.2
          20 June 2018 at 8:06 pm

          Well beyond puckers.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5
      20 June 2018 at 12:10 pm

      This government need to get the MoW going again so that we don’t have to the overly costly PPP model.

      I hope that the government puts enough hooks into that contract to keep the private profiteers honest.

      • Puckish Rogue 4.5.1
        20 June 2018 at 12:14 pm

        I could agree to the MOW starting up again but not to the same extent as it was before

        However something that would make things a bit fairer, and more efficient, is to change how sub contracting work

        For example Fulton Hogan bid for a contract and, once winning the contract, immediately put out a sub contract for a smaller company to do the work

        Not sure how you’d do it but sorting that is something that’d get things moving a lot quicker

        • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.1
          20 June 2018 at 12:22 pm

          A MoW should do all the engineering that the government needs done. This is actually the point – the government has the scale to maintain such an entity full time.

          Same goes for their IT really.

          • alwyn 4.5.1.1.1
            20 June 2018 at 2:04 pm

            The biggest part of the MOW’s work was in their Power Division.. Primarily they were building all the Hydro Power Stations. They wouldn’t be allowed to do that these days. The Luddites in the Green Party would oppose any new stations on the grounds that it might affect whatever stream they had just labelled “The greatest wild river in the world”.

            Personally I think the South Island landscapes were greatly improved by the Hydro lakes. The Waikato River is also enhanced by the various dams that gave the scenic, and recreational lakes.

            But Red Russel and his mates would be out demonstrating about any development at all. I suppose James Shaw would also arrive in his Crown Limo and his bright shiny Red Band gumboots and indulge in a bit of tut-tutting.
            But they would oppose any work being done to supply people with renewable power.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.1.1.1
              20 June 2018 at 2:59 pm

              The biggest part of the MOW’s work was in their Power Division.. Primarily they were building all the Hydro Power Stations. They wouldn’t be allowed to do that these days. The Luddites in the Green Party would oppose any new stations on the grounds that it might affect whatever stream they had just labelled “The greatest wild river in the world”.

              The Greens would have the MoW building wind power instead (I’m personally in favour of offshore wind-farms) and installing solar (PV and water heating) on roofs around the country. Probably even a couple of geothermal stations.

              But they would oppose any work being done to supply people with renewable power.

              No they wouldn’t:

              The Green Party will:

              Require energy retailers to buy or generate a proportion of their sales from renewable resources.
              Help district and regional councils plan for wind farm sites.
              Support a programme to install solar water heating panels on government and private buildings.
              Investigate the potential of woody biomass, biofuels, and energy from waves, tides and currents.

              • alwyn …
                20 June 2018 at 5:50 pm

                I read right through that list and failed to see, anywhere, a mention of hydro-electric power.
                Just what do you have against it?
                At least you, although not the Green Party apparently would allow Geothermal power.
                Hydro-electric and geothermal were the things that the MOW were good at, and therefore, it seems, the things the Greens are against.
                I assume that the party never put their investments into such industries. I know they invested in a New Zealand wind energy firm. That didn’t work out too well did it, in spite of them pushing its cause?

                • solkta …
                  20 June 2018 at 6:06 pm

                  You obviously didn’t bother to click on the “Read the full policy here” tab at the bottom of the page:

                  E. Geothermal

                  Geothermal development for industrial process heat and electricity can be sustainable under some circumstances. It must be developed with care to ensure that natural thermal features are not disrupted, and that fluids are re-injected to deep wells so that heat and fluid are not depleted. Iwi and hapū connected to the resource, and their values, must be respected. The Green Party will:

                  1. Support sustainable development and use of geothermal energy.

                  2. Facilitate iwi and hapū involvement in the development and use of geothermal energy.

                  F. Hydroelectricity

                  Hydro provides the backbone of our current electricity generation system. The Green Party does not favour further large hydro plants because:

                  • Our system is vulnerable to dry winters already and we need to diversify away from hydro, and

                  • Rivers are important habitats for wildlife and highly valued for recreation such as fishing and kayaking. We need to protect wild rivers from further development.

                  The Green Party supports:

                  1. Small hydro developments being considered on their merits, where they can be built without significant damage to ecology or public values.

                  2.Iwi and hapū involvement in the planning of small hydro projects, where these projects involve water resources within the rohe of the iwi or hapū.

                  • alwyn …
                    20 June 2018 at 6:56 pm

                    No I didn’t. I read the piece Draco quoted.
                    On the other hand, after reading the section you quote I am not going to change my opinion.
                    There are so many qualifications in here that no development will ever take place.
                    “We need to protect wild rivers from further development.”
                    ie. No more development allowed because you simply class every river as a “wild” one, don’t you.
                    By the way. Just how many people really go kayaking on these “wild rivers”? I see quite a lot in Wellington Harbour but damn all on the Hutt River and I can’t remember seeing any on the Orongorongo river.

            • Gabby 4.5.1.1.1.2
              20 June 2018 at 7:57 pm

              How many pathetic dribbly South Island rivers have you seen lately wally?

              • alwyn …
                20 June 2018 at 11:45 pm

                How many pathetic dribbly comments have you made lately gobby?
                You really are a dumb piece of shit aren’t you?

        • Herodotus 4.5.1.2
          20 June 2018 at 2:40 pm

          PR not quite correct there, from days gone by when working with another contractor that is well known in NZ !!! the sub contractors tender prices are incorporated pre tender calculation before being submitted to the client. No contractor would implement the process you are proposing, as the principal would be exposed to both the ability to a sub contractor to commit and the price that they would charge.
          In many contracts I have been privy to, sub contractors are also included as part of the tender, so the client can weigh up different tenders and their ability to deliver.
          The ability for a govt to replicate MoW is well past. The time to gear up both with a work force and gear would be too prohibitive. I will say many of those skilled construction workers working with heavy equipment, developed their trade from MoW days e.g. Grader driver, tunnelling certificate holders etc. i.e where practical tradies learnt their trades.

          • Puckish Rogue 4.5.1.2.1
            20 June 2018 at 2:46 pm

            Food for thought, Herodotus. Thanks for that.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.5.1.2.2
            20 June 2018 at 3:01 pm

            The ability for a govt to replicate MoW is well past.

            No it’s not.

            The time to gear up both with a work force and gear would be too prohibitive.

            No it wouldn’t. To gear up the private sector costs as well.

            • Herodotus 4.5.1.2.2.1
              20 June 2018 at 6:23 pm

              You comment with limited industry knowledge. pity otherwise you could add some value to the topic !!
              The private sector Downer EDI Works – was MoW. Other large construction coys have had 20+ years to build up resources, equipment as the sector has grown. Where would a new MoW obtain staff from ?? More immigrants, and if so ANOTHER broken promise from our current govt. Cannibalise from existing coys.
              Buy equipment ? If experienced coys as Fletchers are finding it difficult how would the govt ?
              Also how would a active MoW operate under our Free Trade Agreements ?? That is why I commented that the time had past for this Min. to be replicated again. Pity as commented before, this was a great entity that gave work experience to so many and built so much of our current infrastructure. Oh to go back to 1996 and reverse that decision 🙁
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Works_and_Development

  5. Sabine 5
    20 June 2018 at 11:06 am

    so mike hoskins Born: 24 January 1965 (age 53 years)

    i would guess he starts having proper memories of holidays and going away sort of around 1973 ish, give or take a year or two.

    so i googled for strikes between 1974 – 1979 just for giggles and came to this

    Quote: ” Either way, industrial relations between management and unions were not always good, especially in the 1970s. Railways sometimes seemed more interested in moving its own rail wagons than people.
    In 1988, angered by cancelled sailings, passengers took matters into their own hands. After sleeping in the tatty old terminal and watching ferries come and go full of rail wagons while being told that there was no room for people, passengers blocked the railway line until promised higher priority for people and cars.”

    snip (this is the bit posted above that does not have the correct time frame for the purists)

    Several times between 1971 and 1983 the government launched ‘Operation Pluto’, using state domestic airline and air force planes to fly passengers and cars between Wellington and Blenheim during prolonged industrial disputes.

    snip – to finish
    Quote: Although there has not been a major strike since 1994, the editor of New Zealand Marine News chuckled at public reaction to a brief dispute in September 2003. ‘Despite this ten-year strike-free period, passengers interviewed on television complained vociferously as if such disputes were still frequent and recent.’Quote

    Now did Mr. Hoskins complain about the ferries that loaded their ship with rail cars to the point were they could not take passengers up? Oh noes, that would be his paymasters. ……

    oh and this is from this pimko commie page .govt.nz 🙂 https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/cook-strait-rail-ferries/strikes-and-strandings

    • Baba Yaga 5.1
      20 June 2018 at 11:41 am

      Desperate attempt to get Sanctuary out of a massive hole fails.

      We are undoubtedly seeing a new era of industrial problems beginning, with unions emboldened by a weak government who stoked expectations and now merrily destroys business confidence.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.1
        20 June 2018 at 11:55 am

        Business isn’t confident, it’s cocky. Whenever its favoured enablers are out of power, business loses it’s confidence cockiness.
        So
        what.

        • Baba Yaga 5.1.1.1
          20 June 2018 at 12:57 pm

          So what? Are you serious? Businesses employ people. They provide capital which produces profits on which taxes are paid to fund government spending. You do know that, right? You do know that governments only survive because of private enterprise? That government services, welfare systems, hospitals, schools, only exists because businesses employ people, make money and pay taxes?

          The signs are already there that this government is stuffing the economy, while also managing to be incompetent in too many other areas to count.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.1
            20 June 2018 at 1:57 pm

            They provide capital which produces profits on which taxes are paid to fund government spending.

            Which is all a lie.

            All the capital, all the resources needed for that business comes from the community. And that community is represented by the government.

            Bank Robbery: How would money (and the world) be different after reform?

            Fifth, money would no longer siphon wealth from the working to the wealthy. As already pointed out, the kinds of individuals who gain great wealth and power in our present system are not distinguished by great intelligence, sagacity or skill, so much as by a common lack of concern for the results of their activities. The great tragedy of our civilisation, pointed out again and again by commentators of many different persuasions, is that the moral element is no longer influential. A restoration of morality in our economic and political dealings would be transformative.

            ‘Democracy’ was traditionally understood to be rule by the not-so-well-off, because the not-so-well-off are always in the majority. But today’s ‘democracies’ are dominated by the rich. There are some reasons for this discrepancy. First, what we like to call democracy – electoral representation – is in truth not very democratic.[65] Second, most voters are in the dark about laws and practices that favour wealth.

            One of the aspects of Sovereign Money would be that rich people would become superfluous. We could, as a nation, decide where our resources are going to be used rather than leaving it to a small clique of self-aggrandising arseholes.

            • Alan 5.1.1.1.1.1
              20 June 2018 at 2:21 pm

              yeah right, try reducing business levels by say 20% in NZ and see how much the Government has available to pay nurses and teachers then.
              Fine for you to expound your wonk theory but the rest of us live in the real world – if business is not producing the cake then government has nothing to slice, it is that simple.
              Your Utopian communist model has never worked anywhere Draco

              • Puckish Rogue …
                20 June 2018 at 2:28 pm

                I’ll bet that’s because it just hasn’t been implemented properly anywhere, ever…yet 🙂

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  20 June 2018 at 3:09 pm

                  The truth hurt does it?

                • Robert Guyton …
                  20 June 2018 at 3:12 pm

                  Hey, Pucky! Do you reckon the capitalist model has ever been implemented properly anywhere, ever? If so, where?

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    20 June 2018 at 3:21 pm

                    Seems to be doing a decent job in China

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

                    “According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China’s poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms”

                    Still has a way to go of course

                    https://qz.com/798481/over-a-billion-people-have-been-lifted-out-of-poverty-since-1990-but-the-next-billion-will-be-harder/

                    “Since 2008, too, the proportion of people in extreme poverty population has fallen steadily, from 17.8% to just 10.8% of the global population. In 2013 alone, 114 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty.”

                    Even Bono is saying it:

                    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3258264/The-U2-U-turn-years-telling-hand-aid-Bono-admits-trade-eradicate-extreme-poverty.html

                    Addressing business leaders, he said: ‘I’m late to realising that it’s you guys, it’s the private sector, it’s commerce that’s going to take the majority of people out of extreme poverty. And, as an activist, I almost found that hard to say.’

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      20 June 2018 at 3:32 pm

                      Yep. I hear the night sky over there’s as clear as a clear and the rivers run the same. Success: smells like renminbi !

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      20 June 2018 at 3:42 pm

                      While I can’t locate the exact link I feel reasonably secure in suggesting that industry is just as dirty, if not more so, under communism

                      I’d also suggest that as wealth continues to grow in a country that country will then produce more of an educated, middle class which in turn leads to greater benefits for that country

                      For example when western countries entered the industrial age the countryside suffered, the poor suffered, nature suffered but (a bit too slowly sure) as education has increased as has the social conscience grown with it so now more effort, and money, is spent on welfare, on conservation, on education

                      Same thing will happen in China, India etc etc, in fact it might even happen sooner

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:11 pm

                      “Just as dirty” – well that’s okay then. I personally, am not championing Communism. I was asking you to nominate a properly implemented Capitalist model, then my aim was to show how unsuitable your best model was, in real terms (that is, not ruining the place).

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      20 June 2018 at 4:18 pm

                      I don’t think capitalism or communism has been properly implemented but if you look at the difference in NZ at the start of industrialisation to now you’ll see a massive difference, some good some bad but overall better

                      Same with older European countries and the same with countries like Canada or even the USA

                      You look at countries that are communist and its only the countries that are taking on more capitalism, like China, that’re improving the lot of their people

                      Sure its not scientific but when it comes down it Capitalism is the best of the current lot of choices we have or the lest worst, whatever way you want to look at it

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      20 June 2018 at 6:16 pm

                      Capitalism, far from ideal; Communism, far from ideal. I’m not especially enamoured of any of the systems on display right now, Pucky. How about a discussion that doesn’t call on those labels but instead looks at the parts of human society that do work, regardless of their table, and see if we can stitch something together that’s better than anything going?

                    • Ed …
                      20 June 2018 at 6:26 pm

                      How the hell can things be generally better if we’re on the brink of eradicating all complex life forms thanks to capitalism?

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    20 June 2018 at 6:30 pm

                    “Generally better off”, perhaps, but still doomed (just differently). In any case, I’m betting Communism is as responsible for many of the ills that loom over us now. And almost every other ism. Some models out there though, aren’t causing these problems, I reckon.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                20 June 2018 at 3:09 pm

                yeah right, try reducing business levels by say 20% in NZ and see how much the Government has available to pay nurses and teachers then.

                As much as it chooses. That’s one of the benefits to the government creating the nations money and spending it into the economy. It would benefit private business as well – no more interest to pay.

                Fine for you to expound your wonk theory but the rest of us live in the real world – if business is not producing the cake then government has nothing to slice, it is that simple.

                That is actually a lie and always has been. It’s not private that makes the wealth of a nation.

                Your Utopian communist model has never worked anywhere Draco

                It’s never been tried. Capitalism, on the other hand, has been and it’s always resulted in the collapse of society and now it’s pushing us to the 6th Great Extinction that may result in us being extinct.

                • DB …
                  20 June 2018 at 6:35 pm

                  Personal responsibility is not meant to be ME ME ME. It’s about being a responsible member of society and community as well as responsible for yourself. Corporatism shuns both society and community for profits. Legally obliged to profit and protected by law, corporate entities take more than they give by their very structure. And they will bury competition if they can. It’s the ‘free market’.

                  I have no problem with people acquiring wealth, especially when they work for it. But some wanker on several million per year who rides roughshod over environmental and social structures in order to profit is a fucking scumbag, not a leader.

                  A leader of shits, perhaps. That part that makes your bowels squirm, the sweat rises, nothing is comfortable and will no longer possibly feel ok till the situation is resolved. Scum in high places upset the whole damn works.

                  Anyone behind the scenes directing such antisocial activities is an abhorrent asshole, not even fronting for their own shit. The willfully ignorant who enable such activity and promote their spin are also culpable, Hosking et al fit this description.

                  Honest money for honest effort. Or really, fuck right off.

                  We don’t need to dismantle capitalism, we need to dismantle the old boys clubs.

  6. Peroxide Blonde 6
    20 June 2018 at 11:12 am

    Banks are public institutions masquerading as private businesses.

    “We will be told we must lift the cap on salaries and bring back bonuses to attract the “best people”. We should reply that we’ve had the best people and we’d rather have just good ones. We will be told that huge salaries and bonuses will show the banks are getting back to normal.

    We should reply that this is exactly what we’re afraid of.”

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-banks-are-public-institutions-masquerading-as-private-businesses-1.3534868

    • adam 6.1
      20 June 2018 at 11:34 am

      It’s behind a paywall, that link.

      People should join a co-operative bank or a credit union.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.2
      20 June 2018 at 12:34 pm

      Quoting “Why we can’t afford the rich” by Andrew Sayer, Richard Wilkinson

      CEOs’ pay: because they can

      You have to realise: if I had been paid 50 per cent more, I would not have done it better. If I had been paid 50 per cent less, then I would not have done it worse. (Jeroen van der Veer, former Chief Executive, Royal Dutch Shell)89

      OK. If I am being honest with you then yes, let’s whisper it, but the truth of the matter is that all of us are overpaid. There is nothing magical about what we do. Anybody can do it. (Allen Wheat, Chief Executive of the giant investment bank Credit Suisse First Boston, 1998)90

      If you’ve made a lot of money, it’s really just a matter of keeping score. (H.L. Hunt, Texan oil millionaire)91

      Our banksters don’t get the pay that they deserve but the pay that they want. A choice that normal employees don’t have.

      And then there’s this:

      Martin Wolf, again at the Financial Times, summarised the situation thus:

      Financial systems are important servants of the economy, but poor masters. A large part of the activity of the financial sector seems to be a machine to transfer income and wealth from outsiders to insiders, while increasing the fragility of the economy as a whole.… Banks are rent-extractors – and uncompetitive ones at that.114

      Wolf also asked: ‘Can we afford our financial system?’ His response was unequivocal: ‘The answer is no.’ I agree. Its wealth is not only mostly parasitic but achieved at the cost of destabilising whole economies. It’s both unjust and dysfunctional.

      • Stuart Munro 6.2.1
        20 June 2018 at 1:14 pm

        A curiosity is that high pay actually reduces effort.

        Motivation is a complex interaction and simplistic mechanisms like CEO pay have less to do with that than with ability to coopt the value streams that properly belong to the owners.

        Deci, E. L., Koestner, R., & Ryan, R. M. (1999). A Meta-Analytic Review of Experiments Examining the Effect of Extrinsic Rewards on Intrinsic Motivation. Psychological Bulletin, 125(6), 627-668.

  7. marty mars 7
    20 June 2018 at 11:53 am

    Horrid. As usual indigenous communities and the environment put at risk for black gold, money and lies.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2018/jun/19/salish-sea-pipeline-indigenous-salish-sea-canada-trans-mountain

  8. ankerawshark 8
    20 June 2018 at 11:59 am

    Re Mike Hoskings missing out on holidays in the 70’s……………cry me a river………boo hoo not. He needs to go and visit families living in cars or mouldy houses and then he would have some genuine grievance (on their behalf) and of course one of the strands in the rope that has led us to our current situation re housing and poverty is the barbaric labour relations laws and the fact that we pay such a useless waste of space (Hoskings) so much money while others get so little.

    • Ed 8.1
      20 June 2018 at 3:55 pm

      He is really quite repulsive.
      Selfish.
      Entitled.
      Narcissistic.

      The perfect neo-liberal.

  9. Ad 9
    20 June 2018 at 1:09 pm

    Israel calls for the banning of imports of all petrol and diesel vehicles within 12 years:

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Energy-Minister-calls-for-banning-diesel-gas-based-cars-in-Israel-by-2030-543768

    Other countries have been bolder, but it would still be great to see our own government propose such steps.

    • James 9.1
      20 June 2018 at 1:25 pm

      I would love to see labour come out with that. Although for different reasons than you I would guess.

  11. ankerawshark 11
    20 June 2018 at 3:12 pm

    Puckish, I have to admit I am starting to find you amusing, which I think is good given we have such different views…………………

    Your singing rendition was something else and all I can say is you’ve got it bad (i.e. your crush on Judith)…………

    Seriously though, tell me what the appeal is?

    Because for me she crossed such a big line over the Orivida saga and her relationship with Cam Slater. I would urge you to read Dirty Politics.

    • Puckish Rogue 11.1
      21 June 2018 at 9:50 am

      I’ve always been attracted to strong, intelligent, confident women and I assure you it has nothing to with Jude being one of the lefts Bete Noires 🙂

  12. Fireblade 12
    20 June 2018 at 3:25 pm

    UPDATE

    Gayford’s tweet shows PM still waiting.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12074417

  13. adam 13
    20 June 2018 at 4:36 pm

    Very interesting reading.

    Poll result on all-party action on climate change.

    Quite a few commentators on this site would appear out of touch with the majority on this one.

    https://horizonpoll.co.nz/page/510/majority-support-all-party-action-on-climate-change?gtid=8329406818137LIT

  14. Andre 14
    20 June 2018 at 4:51 pm

    Well, well, well. The Terracotta Turdface has finally managed to upset the evangelicals. But possibly not enough for them to rethink their support.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/19/family-separations-evangelicals-ralph-reed-654094

    • marty mars 14.1
      20 June 2018 at 9:09 pm

      “Evangelical leader Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and a prominent Trump supporter, told the Christian Broadcasting Network last week that the practice was “disgraceful, and it’s terrible to see families ripped apart and I don’t support that one bit.”

      Days later, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops condemned the practice on anti-abortion grounds.

      “This decision negates decades of precedents that have provided protection to women fleeing domestic violence,” conference President Daniel Cardinal DiNardo wrote June 13. “Unless overturned, the decision will erode the capacity of asylum to save lives.””

      tronald dump will be feeling the heat now – slowly rising towards him and what’s that fucken brimstone smell???

  15. Eco Maori 15
    21 June 2018 at 7:04 am

    Good morning The AM Show All the best to Jacinda and Clarke with the start of the birth of their first moko. trump has buckle under the pressure of te tangata of Papatuanukue to change the policy’s on America boarders Ka pai ECO MAORI will wait and see exactly what he does before I give him credit for the changes to this unhumane policy of taking mokos from there parents.
    Many thanks to the AM Show for advocating responsibilities drinking of That killer drug Alcohol. I propose that there are adverts that show te Mokopunas that there are many consequences to drinking to much alcohol one mite die end up in the hinaki / jail most people have done dumb shit while drinking alcohol get the stuff out of OUR supermarkets have bottle stores close at 9 pm many ideas to make axcess to alcohol harder.
    It looks like dancing with the stars is just a show that is used to premote the political act party the last time the show ran it promoted rodney hide he’s retired from politics now and this show its all about david seenothing /seymour that’s what I see.
    Duncan you have seen for yourself what happened when people put bullshit spinning out about you.
    Ka kite ano

  16. Eco Maori 16
    21 June 2018 at 7:15 am

    The sandflys are playing up in Auckland there is a phenomenon that plays out when they do this and it – – – for ECO MAORI. Here some music link

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvTqknDobU
    Ka kite ano

  17. Eco Maori 17
    21 June 2018 at 7:45 am

    Here you go this is the attitude /racial discrimination some have for tangata whenua of Atoearoa. The word BRO discription in the oxford nz dictionary its shocking and Maori culture tangata deserve a apologie over this other forum of suppression of Maori. I get pissed off when some people use the word BRO as a joke they manly white people think Maori people are to dumb to pick up there smart ass put down of you as if they are the only ones blessed with intelligence MUPPETS heres the link below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/104883252/racist-definition-of-the-word-bro-hurtful-and-untrue-woman-says P.S Te whole of Papatuanukue is starting to use Bro in a positive way now Ana to kai Ka kite ano

  18. Eco Maori 18
    21 June 2018 at 9:48 pm

    Here a link to show the sandflys behaviour link below.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12075313

    Ka kite ano

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