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Open mike 20/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 20th, 2020 - 166 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

166 comments on “Open mike 20/09/2020 ”

  1. new view 1

    FFS I knew she was just a magazine cover but didn’t know she was dangerous as well


    Here is the official Government advice on what we should do at Level 2:

    • Keep your distance when outside your home
    • You should keep at least 2 metres in public and in retail stores, like supermarkets and clothes shops and 1 metre in most other places like workplaces, cafes, restaurants and gyms
    • You are encouraged to wear face coverings in situations where physical distancing is not possible, like in shops
    • Wearing face coverings is advised where it’s not possible to practise physical distancing or to carry out contact tracing. For example, in crowded spaces on Tertiary Education Organisation campuses,
    • At Alert Level 2, when not on public transport, we recommend you consider wearing a face covering when you cannot maintain physical distance from people you do not know
    • Keep a 2 metre distance in public. Take extra care if you interact with people you don’t know as it won’t be easy to do contact tracing if needed.

    But hey what’s more important – a group selfie, or promoting Covid-19 safety.

    Share this:


    Did you post this BS before you woke up and engaged that fluff in your skull that pretends to be RWNJ brain or are you a SM manipulator or DP operative doing the dirty work for PDF et al with the link-whoring?

    It is straight and exact copy & paste job of a post on KB with four (!) convenient links for sharing. Well, thank you very much!

    Moderators of this site don’t like dealing with the mind-numbingly stupid and blatantly dishonest, particularly with the election campaign in full swing.

    Banned for the same number of days as the number of comments on that KB post, i.e. 102 days – Incognito]

    • Dennis Frank 1.1

      What's missing here? The date the photo was taken. Looks like fake news then, eh? You reckon a career as an agent of disinformation is a goer, think again. Gotta get the basics right first… 😷

    • Pat 1.2

      Ah, but isnt she a pretty little communist?

      • Sabine 1.2.1

        She is easy on the eyes but she ain't no communist. .

          • Sabine

            we have all seen this picture. Really we did. And she still ain’t no communist. Not even a socialist. But easy on the eyes.

          • Morrissey

            He's an unattractive farmer.

            • greywarshark

              I think Pat was being ironic. Its an example of why its important to put /sarc at end when you intend that. Otherwise it just seems malicious as new view's first comment was.

              • Pat

                Sadly greywarshark humour (?) loses its effect when it has to be explained

              • new View

                GWS. People here can see no wrong in what Jacinda Ardern does. It’s amusing not malicious. Imagine if Judith Collins had done similar. It would be front page everywhere. Of course JC won’t have the adoration of the crowds but she is attempting to come up with policies post Covid which is what the tax cuts are about. What is the Coalition policies for when the wage subsidy comes off or did I miss that.

                • solkta

                  What use will tax cuts be for people who don't have a job? Collins is just offering candy to try and keep some middle class votes.

                  • new view

                    None Solkta But an employer who is under less financial pressure may consider not letting an employee go or even employ an additional person. It also puts more cash in circulation which is exactly what this Government is doing but will stop doing after the election. The wage subsidy doesn’t help those without jobs now does it. And yes it’s designed to get votes. Just like Jacinda Ardern’s little public gathering in my photo attached above. It’s electioneering.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Politicians, out meeting the public, during the campaign period; "it's electioneering"!!!

                      Call the Fraud Squad!

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Okay, you weren't doing fake news, fair enough. A technical breach of the govt policy by the PM is an interesting situation, I agree.

                      Media will jump on it so wait & see how she handles it. If I were her media advisor I'd be tempted to suggest she admit to being a typical kiwi sometimes. But she will have to factor in any likely comment from Ashley, eh?

                      Here in NP I observe the 2m thing in a store (chances of me getting up close & personal with anyone are slim due to my self-imposed isolation lifestyle). We're conforming to policy, but I reckon anyone outside Ak stopped expecting regional community spreading a while back – so they won't freak out.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Only the already-anti Jacinda will froth over that. Everyone else will think, "Gosh, she's popular!". It's a beamingly happy photo; I hope it is used everywhere! Judith's "baby-gnaws-on-knuckle" pic isn't in the same league.

                • Gabby

                  Codger's licking babies all over the shop, skew view, haven't you noticed?

          • woodart

            Im wondering if this is the same person photographed this week on stuff, with a fairly average tattoo of judith collins on his thigh????? apparentley was done in the ycato on a l(y)okal.

    • Incognito 1.3

      See my Moderation note @ 6:31 AM.

    • Wayne 1.4

      Your ban of new view reminds me of the line in A Few Good Men; "You can't handle the truth."

      [lprent: I guess that you can’t handle the truth. Either that or you have a reading deficiency. That was both a copyright violation and a astro-turf violation he was banned for. This is all laid out in the site policy.

      Link-spamming when not in the context of the comment thread.

      It is kind of hard to argue that it is in context when it was the first comment.

      Similarly pasting long materials from other sites, especially copyrighted materials, is not permitted. Just link and selectively quote. Repeated offences is really dumb.

      Hard to argue that there was selective quoting when there was no attempt to quote, no attribution, no link back to the originating site, and I don’t think that new view even added any of his own words – probably because of the fluff brain quality of his thinking. Even the first paragraph reeks of Farrar being his usual simpleton self (I haven’t bothered to look). There is no way that it couldn’t have been a violation of the Copyright Act 1994, and if requested by the original simpleton author, it will be removed in its entirety.

      But you also violated the site policy as far as I am concerned. On two counts as well. Accusing one of the moderators of not being able to handle “the truth” when he was simply following a defined policy is offensive and abusive. And just forcing me to write this wastes my time, especially as I have had to refer you to the policy in the past.

      Generally wasting a moderators time is just not a good idea. We’re there to deal with isolated problems. People persistently sucking up our voluntary time won’t like the results.

      Abusing the sysop or post writers on their own site – including telling us how to run our site or what we should write. This is viewed as self-evident stupidity, and should be added as a category to the Darwin Awards.

      As the term is up to the moderator, I find it proportionate (and humorous) to give you the exactly the same treatment for exactly the same basic offence. Banned for 102 days. It also means that I don’t have to waste more time calculating the end date. Incognito has already done it for me.]

      • weka 1.4.1

        Wayne, you've been here many years and know that spamming the site with KB content is going to piss mods off irrespective of the content.

        If the content were an issue, why wasn't it removed?

        • lprent

          The content wasn't the issue. That someone was dumping copyrighted and/or astroturfing material on the site always is. There is always a some kind of reaction to people who violate either of those two limitations because otherwise there is no incentive not to keep dropping legally liable material here.

          There really isn't a requirement for us to remove the material unless requested to do so by the copyright holder. As DPF hasn’t claimed copyright on his site, then he has a full copyright to it.

          Personally I find it just as offensive that Wayne is trying to tell us how we should run our site when he has clearly never bothered to think the implications through. As I remember it, he was in the Law Commission at the time they were looking at the recommendations that became the Harmful Digital Communications Act.

          Umm.. Yep

          I guess his attitude explains why that was such widespread and probably unintended set of effects from those recommendations. As an example, it required much stronger levels of moderation on this site. It also made sure that the authorship of all comments on this site were deliberately obscured without decryption or login access, and caused a more robust form of moderation to ensure that various behaviours were constrained – like mentioning names of non-public figures.

          • Incognito

            As DPF hasn’t claimed copyright on his site, then he has a full copyright to it.

            I’m not sure if I follow or if there is a typo; PDF does claim copyright at the bottom of his web page!?

            I doubt he will request removal of the ‘infringing’ material as he’s inviting people to share it devil

      • weka 1.4.2

        also Jack Nicholson's character was an arsehole, out of control with his power. Probably not the best reference all things considered.

      • Incognito 1.4.3


        The truth is that we negotiated hard with PDF to syndicate posts from his blog and although he was keen as a house flipper in post-lockdown, he said it would lower his mana with the RWNJ crowd and he has a reputation to uphold. At the end of the day, we could not form a coalition 🙁

    • SPC 1.5

      Just sad, people claiming we should already be at level 1 outside Auckland trying to make this an issue a day before (like tomorrow) we are at Level 1 outside Auckland.

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Sunday, so how about a sermon on the theology of democracy, which nowadays gets masked by the lesser of two evils theory. Polls indicate Labour is seen as lesser currently, but Judith has deployed the money is the root of all evil strategy to flip the binary switch in the minds of mainstreamers.

    So those folk now have a real choice: the money or the bag. Familiar & traditional to Aotearoa. As a child in the 1950s, when entertainment media consisted of Selwyn Toogood and not much else, It's in the Bag was on the radio in homes all over the nation regularly.

    The empire was fading in collective memory, so folks were being trained as consumers (instead of breeders and cannon fodder). The basic idea was contestants had to be seduced by a binary choice: the money or the bag. Greed make them want the money, but consumer goods were in the bag! They could be worth way more! Or way less! Thus the gamble, and the thrill driven by greed & fear simultaneously. The perfect recipe of capitalism, ubiquitous throughout the nation.

    This was god's will, of course. God, being omnipotent as well as omniscient, created the devil as a useful operating system to make folks choose. The devil was in the detail (in the bag). The binary mental straitjacket imposed on mainstreamers by democracy meant they couldn't choose good, they had to choose the lesser of two evils: left or right. God was being devilishly clever!

    There's more to it, of course, such as the divine right of kings devolving into the ruling class, serfs morphing into servants and the working class, etc. But for now, here endeth the lesson. Amen.

    • new view 2.1

      Great analogy Dennis however whether it be a wage subsidy whereby the employer gets to hand the money over or whether it’s money going directly to the consumer, it’s still money. Our money, borrowed money. Our grandkids money. Of course the real issue here is that the tax cuts stay for a couple of years. The subsidy doesn’t.

      • Barfly 2.1.1

        D N F T T

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2

        Our money, borrowed money.

        Mostly its just created money.

        And if you were really worried about the grand-kids you'd be demanding that the private banks stop creating money and charging interest on it. That sort of thing is mathematically, and financially, impossible to support.

        Of course the real issue here is that the tax cuts stay for a couple of years.

        No, the issue is that the tax cuts only benefit the rich and won't boost the economy at all as we've seen time and time again.

        Oh, and there's no guarantee that the pandemic will be over in two or three years. We may be dealing with it for decades in which case having to re-institute the taxes/subsidy would just be a waste of time and money. Better, and easier, just to get rid of it once it's no longer needed.

      • millsy 2.1.3

        We will probably have to pay more to go to the doctor, or for our prescriptions if we get these tax cuts. Or more in fees for government services, ie for drivers licences, birth certificates, etc. And of course, schools will start charging parents more, then youll have congestion charges, fees for this, fees for that.

      • SPC 2.1.4

        National choose tax cuts over helicopter money, as the latter is given equally and tax cuts is their traditional discrimination in favour of those on higher incomes.

    • greywarshark 2.2

      Liked your sermon Dennis F – shakes your hand at the door, first applying hand sanitiser of course.

  3. ScottGN 3

    Both Swarbrick and Mellow tweeted yesterday that Auckland Central was a three way split. Which is not a particularly accurate assessment of the Newshub poll. They both chose to focus on the high number of undecideds. But even if one of them could do the impossible and get all of those undecideds it still probably wouldn’t be enough to overhaul White.

    • Ad 3.1

      If the Greens cant even get close in the most liberal seat in NZ, they need to figure out their profile.

      Even the Melbourne Greens can do it.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

        The Melbourne Greens got close to winning the most liberal seat in NZ???

        • Ad

          The Melbourne Greens won a really liberal seat in Melbourne in 2018, and have 3 in the Victoria Parliament.

          So they are in Parliament, and it looks like the Greens in New Zealand won't be.

          But hey, focus on syntax if you like.

          • Robert Guyton

            " it looks like the Greens in New Zealand won't be"

            To you. Speculation's a mug's game. Did you speculate, 3 years ago, that The Greens wouldn't be in Parliament? I suspect you did (just speculating').

          • mauī

            However, currently the NZ Green Party has 3 times more representation than the Victorian Greens in their respective Parliaments.

          • greywarshark

            Birds do it, bees do it…Melbourne does it, Let's vote for the Greens.

            youtube video

    • Pat 3.2

      It is wise to consider the ' undecided/undeclared' vote…but you are correct there is little chance the result will differ unless there is a considerable swing against White.

      Poll result with undecideds

      White 33.5%

      Mellow 21.0%

      Swarbrick 19.1%

      Undecided 20.7%

      The party vote is even more emphatic

    • swordfish 3.3

      Undecideds disproportionately stay home on Election Day (or should that be Election Month, these days) … analysts generally place far too much importance on them.

      • Pat 3.3.1

        almost 21% undecided (albeit from a relatively small sample) is particularly high however

        • Uncle Scrim

          In 2017 turnout in Auckland Central was 79%, in 2014 it was 76%.

          • Pat

            Are you suggesting a direct correlation between poll undecideds and turnout?

            • Uncle Scrim

              No, but there will likely be some correlation. Undecideds in polls are likely to not vote or to ultimately distribute their votes more or less in a similar way to the majority of those polled who express preferences?

              What I mean is, they are unlikely to vote en masse for one candidate and therefore change the result dramatically.

              • Pat

                Fair enough…and all logical. Expect that turnout may well be down this election because of the perceived foregone conclusion.

        • swordfish


          almost 21% undecided … is particularly high however

          Yep … usually 10-15% in pre-Election Individual Electorate Polls.

          • Graeme

            The unknown is how they are undecided, is it between White and Swarbrick, or between Mellow and whatever, or between voting and not voting.

            Not sure if the polling always goes into that sort of detail. Presume it would for internal party ones.

  4. ScottGN 4

    @Ad (and Robert) 3.1

    Adam Bandt in Melbourne plus Elizabeth May on Vancouver Island and Caroline Lucas in the UK seat of Brighton.
    Greens could do the same here if they got off their arses and put some effort into identifying and winning a seat. But they seem to prefer scraping in on the threshold every election.

  5. Chris T 5

    I will probably be shot down by her fans, but have to say Swarbrick isn't doing her argument any favours on Q and A weed debate this morning.

    Will probably vote yes to the thing still, but find a better spokesperson.

    • Robert Guyton 5.1

      Perhaps you take the job, Chris T; you're clearly more intellectually adroit and debate-capable that that mere slip of a girl!

      • Chris T 5.1.1

        Is there a reason why it is important to you she is a young woman?

        • greywarshark

          Sly riposte Chris T.

        • Robert Guyton

          It's certainly important to her, ipso facto, it's important to me. Just heard about the $ billion. Casts your Chloe criticism into the shade a bit, Chris T!

          • Chris T

            The fact National made a cock up in costings doesn't change Swarbrick's performance on Q and A

            • Robert Guyton

              It doesn't. Chloe managed the debate very well, as she invariably does. National stuffed-up their big launch; something they've managed to avoid in the past, but this time around, they are bedevilled by mistakes, from choosing Todd Muller, then Gerry Brownlee and Judith Collins, and now, it becomes apparent, Paora Goldsmith. Today's loss of face is par for National's 2020 "annus horribilis"

              • Chris T

                While I agree on the National cock-up, I disagree on Swarbrick's performance on Q and A which funny enough was my point.

                You still haven't answered why it matters she is a "girl"

                Or for that matter why you don’t give her the dignity to say she is a woman

                • Chris T

                  In fact even that doesn't get into the fact why you think her being a female even matters

                  • Robert Guyton

                    It's not especially that I thinks she's a female, Chris, I expect everyone thinks she's a female, including you and Chloe. That's important in and of itself, don't you think? I do wonder if you've got the wrong end of the stick here, and like a wee terrier, won't loosen your grip.

                • Robert Guyton

                  She's certainly a woman, Chris. I'm not sure how she refers to herself, but if she says, woman, I'll say it too. I get that you didn't think much of Chloe's Q&A appearance – thanks ever so much for letting us know and drumming your opinion home.

                  • Grafton Gully

                    You called her a "mere slip of a girl", possibly because back to nature deep conservatives want a world where girls are girls and men are men – like Samson.


                    • Robert Guyton

                      Well, Grafton, no (sigh, etc) I was lampooning Chris T, choosing the phrase I (somewhat ungenerously and teasingly) presumed he would use, in order to highlight what I believed to be the lack of substance to his comment. I should have used a sarcastic tag; you'll note I also said "you're clearly more intellectually adroit and debate-capable…" and if that doesn't support my claim, nothing could. I do not consider Chloe to be "a slip of a girl" and never use the phrase when describing a woman, except in jest, sarcastically or kindly (it can be done!). Thanks though, for your attention to the issue, on behalf, of, I'm assuming, Chloe who could, I'm presuming, brush off such a perceived slight, or confront me with her fury at being called such, should she choose. Being, as she is, so much more than a mere slip of a girl. Sarc, etc.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      And yes, us back to nature deep conservative (?) types do want a world where men are men, girls are girls, women are women, boys are boys and so an and so on, with all the nuances and possibilities in between, above and around, calling themselves whatever they choose to call themselves. Cheers!

                    • Chris T

                      I don't have the ability to reply to Incognito, but if they can see this. I felt her arguments for her bill were weak as given the arguments from the other side, but as I said I will probably still vote yes

                      Judge for yourselves and you may disagree


                    • Incognito []


                      That still doesn’t tell us anything because it is vague as. For example, what arguments, why were they weak, etc?

                      I thought dinner was a bit crap.


                      It was not as good as another dinner that I liked better, but I’ll still choose this one when given a choice.

                      Is this a constructive conversation that is going anywhere?

                    • Incognito []

                      I felt her arguments for her bill were weak as given the arguments from the other side …

                      And now it is about how she answered specific questions??

                      You have been all over the place with this today and so non-committal that I’m starting to doubt that you’re interested in genuine debate and that you comment here in good faith. I can’t even figure out whether I agree or disagree with you because you have stating nothing of any substance and with clarity. You know what is likely to happen next, don’t you? Because I’m starting to get fed up with this.

                    • Chris T


                      Probably mostly her inability to handle impairment and children questions

                  • Chris T

                    Far out mate.

                    Was just pointing out she was a bit crap to me on Q and A.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Were you on Q&A???

                      I didn't see you!

                    • Incognito

                      If you had actually stated in your original comment @ 5 at 9:59 AM why you were of that opinion then possibly we could have had a decent conversation about a topical topic. Instead, it invited scorn, as you expected, and wasted time and bandwidth here. You had plenty of opportunity to lead the conversation in a different direction but you chose not to and more than 10 hours later we’re still none the wiser as to why you think “she was a bit crap” to you on Q+A.

                    • mauī

                      You have obviously not seen the Smith "taking a crap" sculpture.

                  • Chris T

                    Kind of thought that was what open mike was for. And frankly thanks yes I will while you think she is a slip of a girl

                    • Incognito

                      Stating an opinion without giving reasons and arguments in support and/or refusing to defend it is just (as bad as) trolling. This site encourages robust debate, which is impossible with trolling hence that receives Moderator attention.

                  • Chris T

                    With all due respect Robert. (I can't reply to your other post as there is no reply button)

                    Just not calling women a mere slip of a girl. Is probably a better idea than trying to pretend you know what other people think.

                • Chris T

                  Staying on topic aeems to be a lost art with some people

    • mauī 5.2

      In contrast this was Nick Smith's performance this morning,

  6. NZJester 6

    Covid-19 death rates by Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking were misleading

    Mike called out for misleading figures by the broadcasting watchdog. What a surprise (Sarcasm)

    He loves to make things up in support of National. He is just a right-wing hack always supporting the fake right-wing narratives.


  7. greywarshark 7

    As someone involved with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) the results of lingering Covid-19 effects are sounding like CFS. CFS results from catching a virus, sometimes very infectious, that the body does not fully recover from. The person can be left with various ailments, that cannot be attributed to a known named medical problem. So what is done is to note the ailments and see if they are included in the list that has been stated as a template for diagnosing the syndrome that is called Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

    Also individuals may start to personally look at vitamin therapy, specialised diet such as an athlete's diet, so ensuring that deficiencies that the virus has left in the body's organs and mechanism can be assisted. Chronic fatigue can be overcome to a large extent, but new ways of being become necessary; the body must be considered and adjustments made to allow for the ailment and expectations of performance and recovery from physical or mental stress be changed; it will be harder and take longer than normal to regain your everyday energy for those affected with CFS.



    Signs and symptoms
    The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends these criteria for diagnosis:

    1. Greatly lowered ability to do activities that were usual before the illness. This drop in activity level occurs along with fatigue and must last six months or longer.
    2. Worsening of symptoms after physical or mental activity that would not have caused a problem before illness. This is known as post-exertional malaise (PEM).
    3. Sleep problems

    Additionally, one of the following symptoms must be present:

    • Problems with thinking and memory (cognitive dysfunction, sometimes described as "brain fog")
    • While standing or sitting upright; lightheadedness, dizziness, weakness, fainting or vision changes may occur (orthostatic intolerance)

    Other common symptoms:
    Many, but not all people with ME/CFS report:

    • Muscle pain, joint pain without swelling or redness, and headache
    • Tender lymph nodes in the neck or armpits
    • Sore throat
    • Irritable bowel syndrome
    • Chills and night sweats
    • Allergies and sensitivities to foods, odors, chemicals, lights, or noise
    • Shortness of breath
    • Irregular heartbeat
    • Dennis Frank 7.1

      brain fog

      Never had it noticeably until it became evident that the early part of the morning was becoming more of a struggle. Rather than resigning myself to aging, I chose regeneration. A bit of online research threw up rosemary. Problem noticeably vanished within a few weeks of using it.

      Symptom: groggy first thing, hard to clear the head & get going. Method: one of them cheap tiny whizzing sharp blade gizmos, renders a handful of rosemary leaves & flowers into tiny wee bits close to powder. Using one of them enclosing tea strainers you get at $2 shops, add to your favourite herbal tea sachet. Drink anytime of day.

      I have a small pot on the stove for reheating – you can get several days out of it, more if you want. In the middle ages villagers had perpetual soups in pots above an embered fire – same principle.

      If you want to defeat cancer as well, add herb Robert. Don't tell the cancer pharmaceutical industry.

      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        Thanks Dennis. Those tips will serve us well in the future when we have to be more self reliant.

        But as part of CFS, it is something that is ongoing and pervasive, it may disappear for a while then descend if the person becomes too stressed for the body's catch-up mechanism. And it would be part of ongoing symptoms that occur for at least a six-month period. The analogy that sufferers use is that you start your day with a finite bucket of energy, and have to conserve it so it lasts throughout. This unfortunately can be translated in the minds of people looking in judgment, as showing the person as lazy, malingering, playing up etc and lead to retribution and harsh targets to force the person to try, and try harder. Failure only proves to the authoritarian mind that you have a mental problem, and are just a drop-out prepared to be a burden on society.

        It's a very unhappy life for those who come up against these rock-hard diagnoses. That has happened in the UK where a regimen of medical men have mostly chosen the negative and inhumane, psychological deficiency approach for many decades. I hope it has changed but certain ones are so elevated in their profession and society, there is no cause for them to examine their navels.

        A few professional people have done sterling work, but the debilitating effect on sufferers means they have little energy to stand up and speak for themselves. They need a Cancer Society or Heart Trust arrangement to raise publicity and sympathy – but it is a non-physical sickness and slippery in its diagnosis, and tiredness appears to be an excuse for laziness which is something that people approach with an almost biblical disdain.

        About it – http://www.drvallings.co.nz/what-is-cfs.html

        This from a woman GP giving her own experience with the syndrome; experience is the most bitter way of learning of the Confucian three ways to wisdom.

      • stunned mullet 7.1.2

        While i understand you are being facetious with your..

        If you want to defeat cancer as well, add herb Robert. Don't tell the cancerpharmaceutical industry.

        It's not particularly funny when you have understandably desperate people reading them as they will want to believe.


        • Dennis Frank

          When I researched it, I was impressed by the survivor accounts online. Folks understandably want to share their good luck with others, to be helpful. After all, as I informed folks here a couple of years back, the herb is named after the 13th century Archbishop of Paris who became famous for curing his parishioners.

          Word of mouth, though traditional, drives an economy more than scientific judgments. If the effect is repeatable, I mean, as usually seems to be the case with herbal lore. Human experience sometimes can't be proven in a lab, sad to say…

          • McFlock

            Folks understandably want to share their good luck with others, to be helpful.

            I italicised the important bit.

            You can't usually read the accounts of the dead people, the Steve Jobs's of the world.

            • Dennis Frank

              Good point. Indeed essential to take account of the failures – for a balanced view. History tends to ignore losers!

              I got the hardcover bio of him from an opshop for a dollar last summer. Damn good read, that. A real doorstopper – if you need one that big…

          • Incognito

            Word of mouth, though traditional, drives an economy more than scientific judgments. If the effect is repeatable, I mean, as usually seems to be the case with herbal lore. Human experience sometimes can't be proven in a lab, sad to say…

            Driving an economy has little to do with being scientifically correct or risky to one’s health; the imperatives are completely different, orthogonal if you like (but not quite).

            Repeatability and reproducibility are at the core of experimental evidence and they build confidence and predictability, statistically speaking, not because of intuition or gut feeling.

            Clinical trials are not conducted in the lab; they are carefully controlled and monitored field trials.

            If an effect does not show up in a trial, even with careful sub-group analysis, it fails to meet the threshold for acceptance by the science community as a proven fact. Any claims of the opposite are then misleading or worse and generally used with profit motives in mind (i.e. ‘driving an economy’).

            This is how mainstream medical science works, by design, it is based on populations and not on individuals. There is a move towards personalised medicine but even those trials are not conducted on a fully individual level.

            Unfortunately, these facts and nuances are often ignored when people comment on these issues. Anecdotal evidence is highly personal but generally also poorly documented and this makes it impossible to draw firm conclusions. Thus, one is left mostly with gut feelings, beliefs, and feels …

      • Matiri 7.1.3

        Shakespeare knew all about it! “There’s rosemary, that’s for remembrance; pray, love, remember;"

        • Dennis Frank

          Interesting, thanks. Reminds us how easily traditions that help people can get lost despite enduring value, due to culture change.

  8. Byd0nz 8

    I'm wouldn't consider myself as a 'fan of Swarbrick', but I thought she was by far the best at presenting her argument on the QnA debate.,

    On the other hand I thought Goldsmith was pure shit on the tax segment and if he thinks that was a game changer, he will look a Fool after election night. It seems like people on the minimum wage are not hard working people at all and deserve FA from the Nasti Party.

  9. jimekus 9

    Gonner: no longer existing, about to expire, die or be gone.130 Meadowbank Rd

  10. greywarshark 10

    Spot the Freudian slip! Are the Reds to be blamed for everything? And note the bit I have bolded – we have to move seriously on getting better and more public transport; reliable and affordable and responsive to need and the commuter's requirements.

    The network is one that doesn't handle events like this well, Walker said.

    "You can't build your way of of it forever and we're going to have to think smarter about how we try and manage demand on the roads, so that's greater use of the likes of public transport and that sort of thing, particularly around the peak times."

    'You can't build your way out of it forever' – Neil Walker duration 9′ :24″

    from Sunday Morning

    Walker says he's been told it was a rouge gust yesterday that was unexpected but a review surrounding the incident will take place.


    • Gabby 10.1

      Is a rouge gust a Communist Plot?

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.2

      lol…I did see that part ( I linked on this)

      Will our cities revive?

      Socialist Weather Control ….: )

    • Ad 10.3

      NZTA owns and through the motorway alliance maintains a bridge that takes 20% of Auckland peak traffic and is nearly 70 years old and being maintained into dotage – yet they don't have spare parts ready to put up in it?

      NZTA and that motorway alliance should have their heads read.

      Also, if the bridge components are that brittle, should they really be hanging a large cycleway off the clipons? BECA better have that design risk-percentaged up to the eyeballs.

      • Andre 10.3.1

        If they kept spares against every conceivable accident they would have a decent chunk of an entire new bridge sitting in a warehouse.

        The clip-ons are separate structures to the original bridge and entirely underneath so truck impact is unlikely – worst case is big fat bastard on the downhill side maxing out the bike speed. And yes, the cycleway is going on the east side for structure reasons – trucks coming south on the east side are more likely to be empty going to the port.

      • greywarshark 10.3.2

        The civil engineers need to get uncivil with each other and check that they have all stresses worked out, allowing for this and that exception that stretches it all to breaking point.

        I haven't forgotten the cataclysmic collapse of the huge bridge in Melbourne last century. I remember hearing that the engineers working on an unfamiliar box design I think, developed in the UK, got in touch with the original firm for advice when stresses started showing up. I don't think anyone was prepared to come forward at that late stage.

        Just before midday on 15 October 1970, a 120 metre span of the half-built West Gate Bridge collapsed into the Yarra, killing 35 workers. A royal commission to investigate the cause of the collapse attributed the failure to a litany of errors in the structural design and method of erection of the bridge. https://www.abc.net.au/archives/80days/stories/2012/01/19/3411538.htm

        This from the University of Melbourne that touches on older bridges needing repair or strengthening to cope not only with ageing but new modern demands: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/a-bridge-too-far
        The collapse of the Morandi Bridge in Genoa, Italy, earlier this year is a stark reminder of the need for well-planned and well-funded bridge-strengthening programs.

        The Morandi Bridge was constructed in 1967, a similar age to Melbourne’s West Gate Bridge, which was built in 1965. Both bridges were built when traffic and vehicle weights were far lighter and the volume of traffic less than the weight capacities today.

        In August, during a thunderstorm, a 210-metre section of the 1000-metre long Morandi Bridge collapsed, killing 43 people. The collapse raises many questions – was neglectful maintenance, shoddy workmanship or poor design to blame? It also highlights the need for thorough monitoring and careful maintenance.

        Some relevant reports that are in pdf I think and I can't receive them but others no doubt can:


        How good are our engineers? How stringently are their CVs checked, their certification verified? NZ had its own problems with engineers after the Christchurch earthquake.

        One was that of Mr Shirtcliff – (note originally from South Africa which country has produced a number of duff white male refugees.)

        An investigation by Fairfax Media shows that in 1970 Mr Shirtcliff stole the identity of an English engineer called William Anthony Fisher, with whom he worked in South Africa in 1968 and 1969.

        Mr Shirtcliff has lived in Australia as William Fisher for more than 25 years. He has a spacious home in Brisbane, a late-model Mercedes and a $200,000 motor launch.

        When Mr Shirtcliff left South Africa in late 1969 to settle in Sydney, he took on Mr Fisher's identity, including his birthplace, birthdate and his bachelor of engineering degree from the University of Sheffield.

        The collapse of the CTV building in the earthquake brought up the problem of standards which were claimed to be obsolete by a Canterbury University academic, and also, a NZ firm which was a 'bit relaxed' (my quotes), about supervision.

        A new reinforced concrete standard emphasising ductility came into effect in New Zealand in 1982. Stefano Pampanin, an associate professor at the University of Canterbury who teaches in structural and seismic design, described the non-ductile philosophy as "an obsolete design based on the levels of knowledge and code provisions that existed before the mid-1980s".

        The structural design engineer was Alan Reay Consultants (named after the company's owner) and the architect was Alun Wilke Associates Architects, both of which are firms based in Christchurch.

        In September 2012 it was discovered the man who supervised the building's construction had faked his engineering degree. Gerald Shirtcliff had stolen the identity of a retired engineer based in the UK, William Fisher.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.4

      Auckland Business Chamber's chief executive Michael Barnett said another harbour crossing has been desperately needed for years and the crash shows it is time for action.

      And the Auckland Business dude fails to understand the lack of space to put another bridge. Proving, once again, that business people haven't got a clue about economics.

  11. peterh 11

    Grant Robinson finds 4.3 billion hole in Nats latest tax relief plan

    • NZJester 11.1

      To be fair I think there is likely not a 4.3 billion hole in their policy, they are just hiding the fact they will be selling things off, slashing public spending by under-funding everything again, and raising taxes on the working class to help pay for it.

      It is how National always try and fill in their policy holes.

      After all that they would still have a hole and will just borrow us back into heavier debt again to fill in the rest.

      So if National wins it will be a Loose Loose for all but the richest Kiwis

      • peterh 11.1.1

        NATS admit funding mistakes made, so this time a real hole found

        • Incognito

          Joyce’s hole was real too, in his imagination. Beliefs and feels are real, you know, and can matter more to voters than bigly numbers peppered around in bigly lolly scrambles. National knows this so they’ll stick with spreading the vibes.

      • Ed1 11.1.2

        Being loose is what John Key specialised in; if National were to be elected it would be lose lose . . .

    • greywarshark 11.2

      peterh at 11

      There's a hole in your bucket dear Peter, dear Peter. The name of our Finance Minister is Grant Robertson. You won't be taken seriously if you can't quote correct names and details for VIPs. (And feel free to point out my faults when you see them – I don't claim immunity.)

  12. Pat 12

    "Economic uncertainty, job insecurity, high unemployment, low population growth – surely the housing market is in trouble?

    But no. On Monday, Westpac Bank stated that “the housing market appears to have shrugged off the latest lockdown” and “we’ve revised up our house price forecast, and now expect an increase of 3.5 percent between March and December 2020”."


    What possible reason could the sector have in promoting such a positive outlook?

    • NZJester 12.1

      There are Kiwi's coming back into the country that likely sold off homes overseas and are now buying here.

    • Ad 12.2
      1. An incredibly low base interest rate from the Reserve Bank, which is crashing bank rates.

      2. Not enough houses being built, and new houses construction slowing fast once the last big set of units and apartments are completed this year.

      • Pat 12.2.1
        1. low interest rates mean nothing if you cannot service the sum required …unemployment is increasing and hours worked decreasing , household income is not increasing…subprimre mortgages didnt work out too well in 2008
        1. there are plenty of houses, almost 2 million for a population of 5 million and that population is ageing with the increasing uptake of retirement villages and rest home care…and there are around 40,000 AirBnBs in NZ which arnt going to be paying their way any time soon.
        • greywarshark

          Article about infill housing. Relatives have a granny flat, properly sit4ed, and not encroached on by mutistorey buildings, it is a very good use of land, and a very pleasant klittle dwelling.

          I have one strong negative to the image in this link. The housing trust has painted them dark something. I object to this fashionable concept spreading like a dark shadow over suburbs probably all over NZ. Dark or beige, horrible. Actually a telling example of the loss of joi-de-vivre? since nolib laid its dead hand on our country.


          • Pat

            Infil housing and granny flats have been going on for decades ….havnt read article (yet) but it also appears to start from the (widely disseminated) misconception of a lack of housing

            • greywarshark

              Rhetoric Pat. There is a lack of affordable housing available to people on low incomes. There must be some kept for them and not to be picked up like gems on a beach by the ravenous hordes feasting on our housing stock.

              • Pat

                Have now read the article grey and it is as previously observed….the presupposition of a lack….as you yourself note the lack is in affordability, that is not (necessarily) corrected by more

                • greywarshark

                  Well Pat it seems to me that parts of the economy have to operate on two levels. If the government is set on the idea of a poor underclass and a precariat that moves in and out of poverty, there needs to be housing provided for them at the cost they can afford. The rest of the country can go for the mansions and nice little places with room for the kids to play in and nice garden and pergola and fence around.

                  The precariat are never going to be able to move up to that, but could make a reasonable life for themselves if they could have a place to live in that they had security in. They could get help keeping it in shape with a small amount paid each week, which gave them access to tradespeople they could afford. That would be practical for the present situation which seems ongoing. Is it too much to ask for, that people with some gravitas in the matter could actually come to the aid of the good people who are unable to climb the financial ladders?

          • Shanreagh

            I have one strong negative to the image in this link. The housing trust has painted them dark something. I object to this fashionable concept spreading like a dark shadow over suburbs probably all over NZ. Dark or beige, horrible.

            I call it the 'beiging' of NZ. It is not limited to the outside of houses. Inside we find beige curtains, matching with the ubiquitous leather or faux lounge suites matching with beige or putty every second place you look.

            The putty and cream combo that I think is even worse. I have just watched a very ornate 1900s house being painted ……these houses were usually quite bright with all the doo-dackies painted in different colours even down to stripes on the bullnose verandahs. It became obvious very soon the the owner was a founder member of the putty & cream brigade. All the walls, trims everything is painted either one of those colours. I thought I'll wait until they have finished they may give it some sparkle by painting the window trims or doors some thing like jade or terracotta. But no, the doors are putty, the same colour as the walls.

            I think it is something damaging to do with our psyche and the fear of difference. In the same category are the houses with net curtains at every window whether or not the houses overlook or are overlooked.

            On the front page of the property supplement for 19/9/20 in the Dom Post it has, GWS, a collection of terrace houses all with dark or beige and all with cars parked in the drives, perhaps becasue no garages were provided. So ugly. Talking about first impressions for potential buyers. I am sure these were not put in to illustrate bad first impressions but they unwittingly did.

            • greywarshark

              You have interesting comments Shanreagh. Have you thought about why people wear dark, plain colours nearly all the time. Black seems ubiquitous. There was a year of the All Blacks but I didn't see that it was pitched to be all backs, for clothing colour.

              When I was young it was all colour, floral dresses, Hawaiian shirts. Now we have been overtaken by the grey, the beige, that is the regular colour of the living quarters of space residents on space ships in tv series, and those humans and humanoids on operations for their government. Busy little ants, in a uniform world with foreboding lurking behind each scene.

              I am going further with my musing. We are being drawn away from human elaboration to minimalist efficiency, and there is a stultified, and 'high art' approach which regards display as kitsch or tawdry and which I regard as sterile, pretentious and conformist. Think of tv programs where a couple of smart young women, or men, go around people's houses telling them how they should be decorated to the 'correct' level.

              Stuck-up and toffy-nosed are the words of the masses for the superior class. We have been splitting away from equality into noticeable classes for some time. I think that this definition of folk art and high art expresses the mood.

              Folk art encompasses art produced from an indigenous culture or by peasants or other laboring tradespeople. In contrast to fine art, folk art is primarily utilitarian and decorative rather than purely aesthetic.


              • lprent

                Have you thought about why people wear dark, plain colours nearly all the time. Black seems ubiquitous.

                I know why I do it. I can’t be bothered doing more than reaching into the draw and pulling out comfortable clothes for the day. No-one cares what I look like at work – they’re only concerned about what I do. A 20 year old white tee-shirt going grey because it goes into the wash with black jeans is ok with me. I haven’t ironed anything for decades. I buy clothes in a triennial fast clothes shop – usually at a single store and with some very confused store staff.

                My partner decided a decade ago that I wasn’t allowed to do my triennial clothes shop without some guidance. While this was a bit of a pain because it now takes longer than my usual 45 minutes now, I figured out that passing over that part of my decision making for a reasonable relationship was acceptable. She was talking about being embarrassed about being seen with me. I think it was the coloured tee-shirts both fading and going distinctly grey that got to her.

                I refuse to separate washing. As far as I am concerned I test clothing quality by seeing if they can survive repeated cold washes all together followed by the dryer for 10-15 years (I let the angora and wool jerseys dry without the dryer). Anyway for some reason my partner refuses to let me do her washing, nor will do mine – which is fine by me. It means that my washing is pretty functional, fats, and doesn’t involve much effort on my part.

                I have the same philosophy about furniture. Which is why our furniture is mostly built like a brick outhouse. The servers live under a pub table that has literally survived since the 1790s. I grew up around furniture that was hardy antiques. I test most modern furniture to a rapid destruction.

                Anyway the eventual clothes buying policy was to make sure that all assemblies of clothes matched. So it is either comfortable blacks or greys. Mostly hard wearing cotton or wool with minimal synthetics. (synthetics run through the dryer collect static far too easily and will fry electronics). I only have to make the decision about long pants or short in the morning and if I need a second or even third layer over the tee-shirt.

                I’m a complete functionalist. Black works for me. It turns out that blacks washed with black take a long time to fade to grey. No-one looks at me dressed in black and says – who is that slob? The idiotic fashionistas ignore me and I don’t need to point out what dumbarses they are to be concerned about trivialities. A win all round.

                Suzzanne Vega has other reasons…

                • greywarshark

                  You take all the fun out of housework and washing machines and being clothes conscious lprent. All that stuff about looking good and sorting your whites and darks, and fluffies is basic stuff for the advice columns on good housekeeping in women's mags as they advise on how to have the ring of confidence in your standing as a smartly turned out house manager.

                  eg How do you manage housework?

                  How do you manage home chores without a maid?

                  Personally I like grey and black as background colours, trousers. Then bring some colour in to the tops. For your tshirts Lynn you could support some witty, acerbic, satirists in their sacred task of waking us all up with tshirt messages that make us laugh ironically too. You could be a laughter machine lpren – let your lighter side out, beyond your utilitarian and problem-solving vocation!

  13. PsyclingLeft.Always 13

    That poor kid….bluurgh…(And the Collins Image has gone. Well thank F for that : )

  14. Dennis Frank 14

    Here's an origin story which may become historic:

    The UK Green new deal was born out of a paper written by economists, including Ann Pettifor, in response to the 2008 financial crisis. It recommended a set of joined up policies that aspired to deal with the upstream conditions that shaped the credit crisis, encouraged the release of rampant carbon, and led to high oil prices.

    What it did was focus squarely on how the rules of our current economic systems shaped climate change, environmental degradation and social inequity. The series of Green New Deal plans now seen across the world, were adapted from that original work and have gained increasing support from the public and across the political spectrum.

    Notable examples in play in the real world include the European Commission’s 2019 €1tn ‘European Green Deal’. It aims to transform the 27-country bloc from a high- to a low-carbon economy, without reducing prosperity and while improving people’s quality of life, through cleaner air and water, better health and a thriving natural world. Meanwhile, leading the Asian region, Korea has commited USD$61bn to a Green New Deal by 2025 which they estimate will create 1.9 million new jobs by 2050.

    So what do people in New Zealand politics need to be able support a New Green Deal approach? They need a roadmap that has been created for them by everyday people who most need change to happen, and they need to feel there is widespread public support for it. That support needs to be built by a range of groups across our communities and society using innovative thinking and tools.

    Providing evidence driven rationales for upstream solutions to address systemic inequities is critical. However, just as important are skills in bringing a diverse range of ordinary people together in agreed and mutually beneficial collective action. Even the best policy solutions in the world need a movement to support them.

    It is also important that those in power listen to the wants and needs of communities. Rather than designing policies from the top-down, inviting participation in the process of solving this problem could increase the support and buy-in from the public and ensure the policy works in the local context and for our communities.

    So there's this conceptual framework available as a basis for Jacinda to become genuinely transformational upon – if returned as PM post-election. Post-neoliberal politics must be more inclusive to provide a resilient path to the future so we need the Nats to get their heads around it too!

    • Pat 14.1

      Providing evidence driven rationales for upstream solutions to address systemic inequities is critical. However, just as important are skills in bringing a diverse range of ordinary people together in agreed and mutually beneficial collective action. Even the best policy solutions in the world need a movement to support them"

      And the way to do all that is to vote for the party that promotes such….its not as if one dosnt exist, even if it isnt perfect.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15

    Convicted of a record heroin bust, a former child refugee caught in a diplomatic deadlock may never leave New Zealand

    How about, instead of imprisoning them here and then getting caught in ten or more years of trying to deport these criminals we just deport them at the time and declare them persona non grata. Keep DNA samples and pictures.

  16. Incognito 16

    Collins was asked what she thought when she found out about the $4 billion gaffe:

    I didn’t let a baby bite my manicured fingers and drool over my moisturised hands to the point that it made my eyebrow twitch to let Paora screw up again. Where was Shane when I needed him? Aren’t doctors supposed to be on call 24/7?

    I can’t wait for this Election to be over and I can be the Leader of the Opposition needling Jacinda together with my mates Cam, Dave, and Mike like in the good old days with Lord John before he sacked me without even raising an eyebrow. How unfair was that!

  17. observer 17

    National's launch is not going well. They've fallen between two stools … you either have a crowd and get energy from it, or you speak as if there isn't one. Collins is trying to rev up a crowd that can't be there. They don't know when to applaud and she doesn't know when to wait for it.

  18. lprent 18

    The comment search is back online. Turns out that there was at some point, a change in the usage of the comment_type field. I'm not exactly sure when that went through.

    where … comment_type ='';


    where … comment_type in ('', 'comment');

    • greywarshark 18.1

      Thanks lprent – all the cognoscenti salute you and we others just get warm feelings – in the right places.

  19. I was wondering if Nicky Hager was ever going to say anything

    He's been testifying at Assange's trial , but of course you all knew that what with the wall to wall coverage our media has been giving, because freedom of information and protection of journalism are our values etc.Do I really need the sarc tag?



  20. Ad 20

    That's a gutsy policy by the Greens to propose banning of trawling and dredging of the whole of the Hauraki Gulf.


    I am also all for their drive for a great string of marine reserves as well. HOwever they will find that they contend with more feral Hilux cromagnons than Minister Sage had to deal with in the Thar-hunting community in Southland and McKenzie Country. I was part of trying to get a marine reserve going from the Waikato mouth to the kaipara – boy every meeting was crowded out with Swanndri'd Australopithicenes.

    If they are geared up for the fight through the high courts, I'd welcome it because I want to be able to throw my line off a local wharf and actually catch something. It's close to dead out there.

    Auckland Council and DoC have done a shockingly bad job on the Hauraki Gulf area.

    Pushing the fishing industry well offshore is where they should be. If the Greens survive and get this one on the bargaining table, it will be a good move, but a big fight.

  21. Pat 21


    "Nearly 300 Chinese vessels accounted for 99% of visible fishing just outside the archipelago’s waters between 13 July and 13 August this year, according to analysis by marine conservation group Oceana."

  22. SPC 22

    For mine the latest coronavirus case is most likely via infection at the managed isolation facility in Christchurch.

  23. Patricia Bremner 23

    Did anyone else read the praise for Ardern by Attenborough?

    It was for the dropping of GDP as the centre of the budget and replacing it with wellbeing. The article itself was on the coming calamity for living things including humanity. He hoped other Governments would take a leaf out of NZ's book.

    I had to take an overseas skype call, then could not find it again online NZ Herald. Oh Yes!!

    'Saving Planet Earth David Attenborough praises Jacinda Ardern's policies NZ Herald.' Could someone help with the link? Cheers.

    • Draco T Bastard 23.1

      Saving planet Earth: Sir David Attenborough praises Jacinda Ardern's policies

      He continued: "In 2019, New Zealand made the bold step of formally dropping GDP as its primary measure of economic success and created its own index based upon its most pressing national concerns.

      "In this single act, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern shifted the priorities of her whole country away from pure growth and towards something that better reflects the aspirations many of us have."

      • Patricia Bremner 23.1.1

        Thanks DTB, He indoors says the Nats will be sick. A 4 billion hole and this blighting their election start.

  24. Fireblade 24

    Simon might want to check his flyers for spelling mistakes before handing them out.

    What a shambles!

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