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Open mike 20/11/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 20th, 2020 - 58 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

58 comments on “Open mike 20/11/2020 ”

  1. aom 1

    Sadly, one of the first international outings of the Foreign Minister is to yap in unison with the other five-eyes. Pity it was in response to the call of the US who demonstrably had a regime-change hand in escalating the Hong Kong problem. Ironically, even now Hong Kong is probably less repressed than when under British rule.
    Meanwhile, back in Israel, the abrogation of human rights show goes on without even a whimper from the new minister.

    • RobbieWgtn 1.1

      "…even now Hong Kong is probably less repressed than when under British rule." A comment that probably sounds better in the original Mandarin.

      • Ad 1.1.1

        Agreed but its pretty weird to field criticism of Chinese governance practices when the US part of 5Eyes is having its intelligence and defence governance decapitated and its democratic processes after a clear election win actively undermined by a sitting President and his party.

        • AB

          Looks like we are witnessing the imagined moral authority of the US becoming unimaginable. God knows what happens next – Yeats nailed it: "things thought too long can be no longer thought"

          • Ad

            It's the moral superiority of all the Five Eyes participants over Chinese rule in Hong Kong that is being claimed by their judgement. And that includes us.

            Perfectly reasonable.

    • Sabine 1.2

      Well one would assume the foreign minister to yap as instructed by the Prime Minister, after all the foreign minister serves at the pleasure of the Prime Minister.

      There fixed it for you, it is the Labour Government that is yapping in unison with the other five eyes.

    • Incognito 1.3

      Hong Kong now, Taiwan next. Look at the bigger picture; geo-politics is never reductionist, least of all when PRC is involved and they play a long game.

  2. Anne 2

    Listen to Rudy Giuliani's latest claims in court:


    starting 1:40 mins in.

    The latest conspiracy is that George Soros, Joe Biden, the Clinton Foundation, Antifa and the Venezuela government have banded together to steal Donald Trump's landslide election victory.

    Time for the Federal authorities including the FBI to intervene.

    • Peter 2.1

      Do Federal authorities including the FBI generally intervene with a staff of people in white coats?

      • Anne 2.1.1

        I was referring to the fact, as emphasized towards the end of the item (which I suspect you hadn't listened to) that what Rudy Giuliani is doing is now getting dangerous… and imo bordering on the criminal.

        • Patricia Bremner

          He will represent Trump until he isn't paid.

          • Anne

            Yes. But the level of the rhetoric – be it in a court room or elsewhere – is an incitement to violence on a very large scale. It is extremely dangerous and could be only a matter of time before it reaches civil war status.

    • Andre 2.2

      Any mention of satanic pedophiles and pizza?

    • Andre 2.3

      Sounds like it was quite the performance.

    • drmumdough 2.4

      Many say that the federal authorities appear to spend a large amount of their time these days "intervening" (or perhaps more specifically, interfering) in or with Washington politics.

      Perhaps they should stick to and with their days jobs.

      They could put their best feet forward again if or when Senator Ally Mayfair-Richards ever gets elected as POTUS. That woman really needs to be watched!

      No pizzas and pedophile action needed by them, unless they can come up with a storyline that would implicate Giuliani as being an Epstein which if they did, would be sure to make hundreds of millions for various media outlets by way of advertising revenues and subscriptions.

      Hollywood producers should be both ashamed and embarrassed that they have allowed themselves to be upstaged by Virginians at the seat of federal government these last couple of years. They have a lot of catching up to do, but I feel certain that they can do it.

      • Anne 2.4.1

        Many say that the federal authorities appear to spend a large amount of their time these days "intervening" (or perhaps more specifically, interfering) in or with Washington politics.

        Since that is the only part your comment that makes any sense, I will respond.

        I damn well hope they are intervening because the current occupants of the White House suggest it has been transformed into a shelter for brain damaged and deluded specimens together with a healthy dollop of thugs and crooks.

        • drmumdough

          All of my posts (including the one you refer to) will always make absolute sense, once you understand the concept.

          In corporate it is dog eat dog, and in politics it is the reverse.

          That aside, current Whitehouse tenants…

          Yeh, probably true about gettin' some agency to give eviction notices to some of them, but not the Bureau (FBI). Don't throw the babies out with the bathwater.

          Sure, the Whitehouse was long overdue for a tenant makeover in any case, but “the brain damaged and deluded specimens together with a healthy dollop of thugs and crooks” you refer to are what give it character and identity. This has been so for many decades.

          The Bureau aren't employed as housecleaners, so it's not their role to "intervene" in anything. They should move on or take a vacation.

  3. greywarshark 3

    NZ governance and policies and actions are much better than what is happening in the USA. But comparing ourselves to that country is setting the bar far too low. But we could be headed down to their level if we continue on our present path.

    I am disheartened by the lack of government attention to pressing problems for people (ppp) – a small letter acronym that is shadowed by PPP which means Business and Profit for some. And further many of the comments here can be sorted into complaints about lack of services to the vulnerable and needy, or fascination at looking objectively at our and other countries' procedures which trend towards decline, or else a love of technology and the engineering possibilities involved in attempting upward movement for our enterprises. Concerning the matter of treating fairly the non-citizens overseas who we have encouraged or allowed to come here and make this their home yesterday, I found that my belief in fairness to others was regarded as wrong; they are not New Zealanders, we don't owe them anything. This is the line that Australians have taken to most NZs, and made it harder for us to achieve citizenship than those from other countries. And this practice of discarding people, like a television reality show, is happening in our own country to fellow NZs.

    I didn't expect to find such barren, draconian views appearing on this site from regular commenters. So it's time for me to take a break, getting on with many jobs and preparing for Christmas which I will spend with family. We have kept our ties alive sharing thoughts and friendship which families, where love and concern are the norm, nurture and spread. I wish all a happy Christmas getting together with those you enjoy, and spending just a bit of time with the rellies that are a pain! And for those without family and with friends who are distant, a suggestion is to join in some community dinner, happening which will warm the heart a bit.

    My thinking just now is about the concern amongst some for the holistic view which binds in both environment, animals and other living things and people into a sustainable, practical, satisfying and reasonably harmonious whole. That is surely a summary of the vision of those with goodwill to all. It seems to me that a new movement needs to start, arising from the experienced and thoughtful, not just from the young and edgy and disenchanted. It needs to aim at thoughtfulness, action and mix in some 'enchantment' as well, to draw in the young and encourage their hope and creativity.

    Perhaps we who think the above idea has merit can think of this over Christmas, Work out a form for it, principles for it etc. It could be called something catchy and humourous like Dad's Army, but to include women in the title. I can't think of a suitable name that has the same ring as Dad's Army, the doughty bunch that came forward to help run the country so the young ones could go away to the blood-letting war. I'd like a male word at the start, because too often it is women who come forward to community work, and the men less involved. We need to stir those who have skills and care about the quality of life here being inclusive. Perhaps bright minds here will come forward. Perhaps not. Ka kite ano. Meri Kirihimete me te Hape Nū Ia

    • solkta 3.1

      The objection to Australia ejecting New Zealanders is in the cases where those people moved to Australia as children and grew up in Australia. They are effectively Australian. The graduates you talk about have only lived here for a few years of their adult lives. You make a false equivalence.

      Also, the NZ gummint has not said that those people will never be allowed to return.

      Those graduates are not being denied re-entry because Business and profit for some but rather to protect the lives of New Zealanders.

    • RedLogix 3.2

      Concerning the matter of treating fairly the non-citizens overseas who we have encouraged or allowed to come here and make this their home yesterday, I found that my belief in fairness to others was regarded as wrong; they are not New Zealanders, we don't owe them anything.

      Yes. And like you I find these emerging isolationist, bordering on xenophobic attitudes both discouraging and a little disturbing. Yet in a time of disease it is perhaps an understandable, desirable even from an evolutionary perspective, trait to come to the fore.

      Something so deeply wired into our psychology is not easily muted.

      • solkta 3.2.1

        What bullshit. States have a moral and legal obligation to put their citizens first in such times, that is all.

        • Stuart Munro

          Though it would be hard to identify it in pre-Covid policy, states have a legal and moral obligation to put their citizens first at all times. Some starry-eyed globalists merely found it expedient to forget.

          • RedLogix

            That steps right over the line into xenophobia territory.

            It is possible to put citizens first, while treating others reasonably, and it's how NZ has behaved for most of it's existence.

            • solkta

              how NZ has behaved for most of it's existence.

              Not very good with history then. Try poll tax and dawn raids.

            • Stuart Munro

              Actually NZ lost the plot in the eighties, and started treating our own people like shit. Try that migrant entitlement line in China, or Korea, or Saudi or India, or Russia, and see how far it gets you.

              It's not xenophobia at all – mass low-wage immigration is massively irresponsible, and goes right to the heart of the burgeoning inequality we have "enjoyed" since that time.

              If we are going to treat others reasonably, the first decent step would be to go after the crooks who marketed third tier degrees in NZ as a stepping stone to citizenship, which legally they were not.

              We have immigration rules for a reason – to protect our most vulnerable so that they don't find themselves homeless or jobless. Successive governments really fell down on that job – blowing all their progressive credibility in one go by supporting slave worker arrangements.

              • RedLogix

                I must have made a mistake. What was it that I wrote that gave you the idea I was advocating an open borders policy?

                • Stuart Munro

                  When you called me a xenophobe for wanting our existing rules enforced?

                  Not to chip at you though – many of the cruelties of our system are unintentional and fixable. A few ads in India might not go astray – something like: “Thinking of doing a dodgy degree in NZ as a path to citizenship? – Forget it – those scams have been closed down.”

                  The Pacific is the logical area for us to show some moral responsibility – and the populations are small enough not to automatically swamp NZ. The Philippines or India are a bit big for us to help that way.

        • Ad

          Rich states like ours should go out of their way to help the poor states that surround us.

          That too is their moral obligation.

          • solkta

            Yes i think we have a moral obligation towards pacific states though in most cases not a legal one. We weren't talking about obligations to states though but rather people who had been studying here and had a work visa. The article that grey linked to was about Indian nationals specifically.

    • greywarshark 3.3

      My comment above did not mention the green thinking that happens on this blog, which is a paramount boon to New Zealand and our awareness of what is happening, needs to happen everywhere, and how to get there before the natural forces get completely out of balance.

    • drmumdough 3.4

      General rules of thumb nearly everywhere (and prior to Covid-19 events);

      Citizenship: Absolute right of entry to country of citizenship, equal liberties and equal recognition under law even when the laws of that "state" allow for and promote various forms of discrimination.

      Dual citizenship: Similar, but where certain provisions exist whereby a country (as "the state") could expel or exile a citizen to the alternative nation of citizenship under exceptional circumstances.

      Permanent Residence: Few privileges other than the right to indefinitely reside and the right to work, study and travel freely within borders and travel to and from the country of residency with some restrictions on right of re-entry. Certain restrictions placed on welfare entitlement and liberties in accordance with migrant policy. Right to expel in accordance with due process determined by a state forum (a court, an authority as a forum or an elected representative given special powers)

      Visitors and holders of work permits/visa and student visas: The discretion of the state to apply whatever impositions or restrictions it believes reasonable at any one time. Residence only to reside whilst engaged in work or study. Right of re-entry not guaranteed.

    • Patricia Bremner 3.5

      Yes Greywarshark, we need to nuture and keep friends and family close.

      On the 25th I will be paying close attention to the speech from the throne.

      Those who want revolution are always fermenting. Those who do not believe in community keep chipping away, using "freedom" as an angle.

      I too have decided to only come here once a day, and to realise how well our country is doing during the fall out of a pandemic, to not be undermined by those with an agenda.

      All the best to you and yours.

      • solkta 3.5.1

        Are you related to or a good friend of the queen? Or are you talking about your partner's complaints of indigestion after xmas lunch?

        • Patricia Bremner

          lol you bloody fool, drmumdough, what makes your views any more important than anyone elses views?. I was replying to Greywarshark at 3. So keep your sobs.. see below.

          Solka It is the PM's Speech on 25th Nov lol. Delivered from the "throne" by the Governor General, laying out the Government's direction.

          There seems to be a concerted effort to shut some people down, now let me consider why that would be? Sensitive spots prodded perhaps? If not what? Bully?

      • drmumdough 3.5.2


        (Sobbing Out Loud).

        Agreed. I have been brought to tears reading your comment and that of Greywarshark's. My sides feel bruised with such emotion I would not describe here.

        I've been observing this website for quite some time now, quietly. What an inspiration so many of you must be to so many.

        Greywarshark touches a note in all of us, I am sure.

        Remember the good old days when Aotearoa folk all had equal values and our strengths lay in following the direction of of our leaders and those respected, to the letter of the law, Patricia? What the hell has happened to us?

        Remember when our dollar was stronger than the US dollar?

        Remember when we had pride in relation to our national sports? Rugby, racing and beer culture was admired by so many globally. It gave us both identity and mana.

        Well, at least they can't take that away from us.

        If they try, Patricia, we shall fight them on the beaches, and we shall never surrender.

        Onward Kiwi, onward!

        Surely Kiwis have an almost god given right to consumerism, travel, comfort and outright expression of our beliefs in return for the toil and slog of our forefathers and foremothers and the work chipped in by Kiwis as mothers, grandmothers and employees.

        Let's all say that we will keep the Kiwi belief, morale and spirit strong. And chin up! There is light at the end (of the tunnel).

        If all else fails, and we all find ourselves in the gutter, at least we can be sure that we will have the fortitude to keep our heads held high and to keep looking to the stars (or matariki) for our future guidance and for confirmation of our direction.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.5.3

        …to realise how well our country is doing during the fall out of a pandemic, to not be undermined by those with an agenda.

        Hmmm….pity about the homeless, eh? And the skyrocketing house prices? And I bet those who have been on the bones of their arses for years trying to live with chronic illness or disability on the pathetic pittance successive governments dole out have gotten over the generous (comparatively) handouts given to those found jobless because of Te Virus.

        Shall we mention the obscene corporate welfare Jacinda and Grant ( I bet the Business Roundtable thinks the sun shines out their…) have handed out with all the kindness they can muster.

        No Winston to blame anymore for the paucity of kindness to those the WEAG advised an immediate increase in income…but I guess we'll hear more excuses on the 25th.

        Fermenting? Revolution? You're damn right.

        Those who do not believe in community keep chipping away, using "freedom" as an angle.

        If you mean what I think you mean…then a reality check is in order.

        But I guess the 'community' in the Middle are all good.

        • Patricia Bremner

          Don't deliberately put meanings that are not there please Rosemary. That felt personal.

          We are not "in the middle" of the wealth spectrum, and we have a disability to contend with and cancer. Not everyone wants a revolution, and some of us worry about the group wanting extra people brought in, trying to make the Government out to be fascist when they are protecting us.

          I'm not sure what reality check you are talking of. Believe me with my polio causing my old age to be fraught a two stage op coming for cancer for my hubby and a son in Australia with an inherited bowel cancer, our lives are not a bed roses.

          I am just as concerned about the struggles some are having.

          Protesting is fine, if you thought I was objecting to that. I will leave it there.

          • Rosemary McDonald

            If there was a hint of "personal" Patricia it is because I do remember you and your family have these issues…just as many of us have…and I genuinely would like to know how you maintain your loyalty to the Labour Party and your admiration of Ardern when clearly they have absolutely no intention of doing what needs to be done to address the rampant inequalities some seem to have accepted as being normal.

            Ardern is a great figurehead, and when on familiar ground an impressive communicator…but is she truly genuine in her 'kindness".

            I don't think so. Because she has joined Leaders Previous in choosing to continue to do nothing to improve the lives of the most vulnerable.

  4. Byd0nz 4

    Is NZ an independant Nation, it seems no, when we are still held under the rusty chains of Imperilism past, give 5 eyes the arse. A cold war directive from the military alliance of thugs bent on imposing their will on others. It's about time we had a referendem on whether we want to be part of 5 eyes and therefore subserviant to war monger Nations like the US and UK.

    If this is a new era of kindness, then we should have a say on this 5 eyes Hate pact.

  5. tc 5

    I see Tauranga mayor's resigned and calling for govt intervention.

    Great opportunity to throw the bally lot of them out on their arses as a disgrace and warning to the public about voting in such egotistical blowhards.

  6. joe90 6

    'Murican ISIS.

    CHICAGO (WLS) — There is new and disturbing information in the alleged militia plot against the governor of Michigan.

    The 14 men charged had far more violent plans than just a kidnapping, according to federal and state authorities.

    RELATED: 13 charged in plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer: FBI

    New filings claim there was a Plan B the militiamen had drawn up, that involved a takeover of the Michigan capitol building by 200 combatants who would stage a week-long series of televised executions of public officials.

    And, according to government documents now on file in lower Michigan court, there was also a Plan C — burning down the state house, leaving no survivors.


    Despite the violent nature of the charges, including an alleged plan to hold a mock treason trial for the governor of Michigan once she was kidnapped, several of the defendants have had bond reductions and are now free.


  7. drmumdough 7


    The world is pinning it's hopes on our Little nation. We can be the mouse that ROARED!!!

    Never, ever say "NO" to Don't Return Monday, dough$$$. National mummy dough is everywhere.

    The social security state has such huge potential in relation to wellbeing.

    We will teach the world what we can really achieve, embracing and adopting an outright socialist economy funded by off-shore backers as stake holders.

    The economy is just one big crap table, and we will emerge victorious. As punters, you just need courage and confidence.

    We breed winners. Just take a look at our sports heroes and (heroines).

    Let's show the world that our glasses (and cups) runneth over with welbeing and welfare enterprise that will firmly place the entire nation on the Right Track to prosperity, wealth and happiness.

    • Brigid 7.1

      "adopting an outright socialist economy funded by off-shore backers as stake holders."

      That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

      • drmumdough 7.1.1

        Not a contradiction at all. No, no, no, no, no.

        Not when off-shore backers own the socialist state and the sovereignty clinging to it. This is the state of the nation (not that I'm on any white horse complaining about it or attempting to dismantle it).

        Socialist state concept, applied as proof of concept, but where the entire stage is quietly owned, lock stock and barrel by off-shore interests.

        Quite funny when you wake up to it, really.

      • WeTheBleeple 7.1.2

        A blithering idiot. Worth a warning for me to warn others off. TROLL. Word salad wrapped as wisdom. A lightweight twat.

    • Gyrogearloose 7.2

      It seems like so many people hold up Sweden as and example of democratic socialism.

      So much so that videos were made to show it wasn't

      Short version…(1minute 29 sec ).

      Longer version

      A comment on the video " I find it hilarious and ironic that US Progressives that tout "The Swedish Model" don't know any more about Sweden's actual economic workings and government structure than they know about how our system is supposed to work. They're touting a model that Sweden has tried AND REJECTED. "

  8. Phillip ure 8

    Has the van thing been officially upgraded yet ..?…to our latest moral-panic..?…it must be getting close..

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