Open mike 20/11/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 20th, 2023 - 67 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

67 comments on “Open mike 20/11/2023 ”

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  1. Tiger Mountain 1
    20 November 2023 at 7:12 am

    New Govt. negotiations are heading for week six…the media channels would be beside themselves if it were the Labour/Green/TPM group in discussion–though odds are it would have been resolved by now anyway.

    “Arch negotiator”, “I ran an Airline”–Mr Luxury Baldrick Luxon–has proven to be a non event. The big money backers of NZ Nats and Act must be in constant face palm mode. They want to shaft the working class to keep the wealth flowing in their direction, but bungler Luxon has not delivered yet.

    Labour, Green and TPM need to become an opposition force now. The election result will not change, but an articulated position from the Parliamentary opposition will assist fightback from unions, NGOs and communities.

    • Sanctuary 1.1
      20 November 2023 at 8:37 am

      Luxon won on the back of a very negative mood fostered by a very well funded and sophisticated social media campaign run by Topham Guerin. His personal numbers are terrible and National's share of the vote wasn't a ringing endorsement of his party. He has to contend with a aggressive ACT party which sees a path to greater power in stoking GOP style culture and race wars and a NZ First led by what to me looks like an increasingly senile Winston Peters who has elevated tilting at windmills and cultivating fringe merchants from something doe for effect to being the point.

      So he is discovering in real time that how you get to power has consequences on how you try to run the country.

      Either he'll concede some massively divisive culture war moment for the sake of unity and power (a la Davind Cameron) and probably lose heavily next time or he'll cobble together something and limp along – I reckon Willis will roll him on the back of terrible poll numbers around February 2026.

      • Kat 1.1.1
        20 November 2023 at 9:03 am

        Luxon is there because the voters put him there. Unfortunately in politics we only get what the fickle electorate serves up and it certainly appears the electorate can be easily swayed by influences such as a complicit media, almost at will……..

      • Bearded Git 1.1.2
        20 November 2023 at 9:24 am

        To say Luxon "won" is not really accurate. Luxon got 38.1-English got 44.4 in 2017 and could not form a government.

        You only win/lose if you can/can't cobble together a working majority, so Luxon has yet to win because even now we don't know that Winston will agree to work with Luxon and Seymour though this appears to be odds-on.

        Pedro Sanchez in Spain is a winner, in fact he has pulled a rabbit out of the hat to form his coalition government this week and boy are the establishment pissed. This has cheered me up immensely. Sanchez has asked for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza -good man.

        • Tiger Mountain 1.1.2.1
          20 November 2023 at 9:43 am

          Yes tough road ahead for Mr Sánchez…
          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67436378

          “Shortly before the vote, Mr Sánchez linked attempts to question the legitimacy of his new government to part of a global trend. He referred to the presence of former Fox News TV anchor Tucker Carlson at a recent protest outside the Socialist Party headquarters in Madrid.

          "We've seen it in the United States, in Brazil and other parts of the world where there is a political right and political far right who do not accept the result of elections," he said.”

          A lot of people still seem to view elections as FPP even when they are run under another system, torys particularly seem fond of “winner takes all”.

          • Bearded Git 1.1.2.1.1
            20 November 2023 at 4:13 pm

            From your link Tiger:

            "The conservative Popular Party won elections in July, but leader Alberto Núñez Feijóo failed to form a majority"

            The BBC really doesn't understand the partly PR system in Spain. As lprent says below, only Sanchez "won" as he is the only one who was able to form a majority government.

        • lprent 1.1.2.2
          20 November 2023 at 1:15 pm

          To say Luxon “won” is not really accurate. Luxon got 38.1-English got 44.4 in 2017 and could not form a government.

          Yep. You ‘win’ if you can convince the Governor General that, as PM, you can form a majority in parliament for confidence and supply vote. Then you have to deliver because one of the first votes in parliament is going to be a C&S vote.

          That GG convincing requires credible assurances from any other party or even leaders of factions of a governing party, that they won’t disrupt the process of governing.

          It can be as part of a coalition, or just support in C&S votes.

    • gsays 1.2
      20 November 2023 at 12:36 pm

      Just had a wee ironic chuckle.

      In my lunch break I clicked on a stuff article about govt. nogotiations @ Luxons house.

      Blank screen comes up with a message "…took too long to respond".

  2. Ad 2
    20 November 2023 at 8:19 am

    Brownlee sounded petulant essentially agreeing with Hipkins sending out a call for a Gaza cease-fire but chiding him for "jumping the gun" (perhaps not his best turn of phrase).

    Looking more likely in the UN exchanges that Qatar and the US have negotiated a 5-day ceasefire in return for the kidnapped citizens. Sure needs to happen.

    • Bearded Git 2.1
      20 November 2023 at 9:35 am

      I think that Qatar and the US (pathetically) refuse to call it a ceasefire but rather call it a humanitarian pause.

      The NZ Jewish Council guy on Morning Report used the argument that there should be no ceasefire until the hostages are returned. This is nonesense and simply an excuse to keep bombing. It amounts to "Let us kill another 10,000 Palestinians because 200 hostages have not been returned". A ceasefire would enable much more positive negotiations around the hostages. Meanwhile the hostages themselves are put in danger by the IDF attacks on Gaza.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018916062

      • Ad 2.1.1
        20 November 2023 at 9:44 am

        The NZ Jewish Council guy sounded mean but a pause+hostages deal looks close.

        The Muslim association guy refusing to confirm Hamas was a terrorist organisation – which I would have thought uncontroversial – was also shall we say odd.

    • SPC 2.2
      20 November 2023 at 5:07 pm

      I would guess it would involve all children and their parents. I would doubt it would be all.

      Otherwise those who needed medical care and the elders.

      There might be talks about access to remaining hostages and or verification about whether they are alive or not.

  3. Tricledrown 3
    20 November 2023 at 8:20 am

    Geriatric Brownlee finally makes a decision to put NZ's position on the Israeli /Palestine conflict complaining Labour jumped the gun.National have had all the time to make a decision but sat on their hands and only made a statement after chippy chipped in complaining National were doing nothing.Same at the pacific forum Brownlee didn't get up to speed.Luxon is rinsing and repeating his boring constant reheated same old same old story.From the man who claims to be the expert negotiator.Sounds more like Trumpish narcissism. The news media will get stuck into him if all he can do is avoiding questions like he did in the election.it is what it is .The treaty poll that Seymour wants luxon should say Epsom will no longer be an option.Winston probably is siding with Seymour.Looks like it's going to be a tough 3 years.Could be an early Election.Winstons last stand will turn to Custertard.Luxons has painted himself into a corner. National have treated Winston badly in the past so Winston is making them squirm.

    • Kat 3.1
      20 November 2023 at 8:42 am

      Unfortunately the "news media" are owned by the very backers of Luxon and Seymour……don't expect any in depth revelations, it will all be glossed over and sanitised for the sheeple consumption…

      Remember money doesn’t just talk it often swears, especially in politics…….

  4. Sanctuary 4
    20 November 2023 at 8:28 am

    Why does Ingrid Hipkiss feel the need to suffix any comment crticial of Israel with… "Of course, the IDF say..?"

    • AB 4.1
      20 November 2023 at 8:39 am

      Obviously it's terrified self-protection, donning the armour of perceived 'balance'.

      • Anne 4.1.1
        20 November 2023 at 10:37 am

        Or to put it another way:

        Israel's lengthy and prolific tentacles together with Western establishment tendency to favour right-wing solutions? Best not to get too off-side with them.

        • Anne 4.1.1.1
          20 November 2023 at 11:17 am

          Case in point:

          Brownlee is misrepresenting what Hipkins said. Unsurprising:

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/502803/israel-gaza-ceasefire-call-will-not-help-until-certain-conditions-met-national

          What Hipkins did say (see link below above link)

          It runs against Labour Party values to see the horrific scenes we are witnessing without calling for a ceasefire," he said.

          "Israel and Gaza need to immediately ensure that conditions for a ceasefire be met. We call on all parties to strive to restore calm and restraint.

          "We remain very concerned about the humanitarian impact of the conflict."

          Hipkins has called on Israel to allow supplies to be delivered and for Hamas to free its hostages.

          "Ultimately we want to see a just and lasting peace.

          "The violence and the killing has to stop."

          • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.1
            20 November 2023 at 11:57 am

            So Labour's ceasefire stance is not conditional on the hostages being released as Brownlee said. Rather Labour is asking the hostages to be released as well. Corin Dann should have been aware of this and picked him up on it.

            Brownlee starts with a lie-the Nats are back.

        • Michael P 4.1.1.2
          20 November 2023 at 7:21 pm

          I’m hoping you are ignorant as to why your comment could be seen as quite problematic? If not and it is deliberate then shame on you.

          • Anne 4.1.1.2.1
            20 November 2023 at 9:10 pm

            ??

            The first was tongue in cheek and the second was a link to a news item. You are reading into it something that is not there. 🙄

            • Michael P 4.1.1.2.1.1
              20 November 2023 at 9:22 pm

              "Israel's lengthy and prolific tentacles…"

              I'm reading into it exactly what it says

              • Anne …
                20 November 2023 at 9:57 pm

                Not too many years ago, a couple of Israeli spies came to NZ in order to obtain NZ passports by illegal means. The PM of the day, Helen Clark was – quite rightly – extremely displeased. The two culprits were brought to justice and spent a short time in a NZ prison before heading back to their homeland. It was noted at the time that this practice was likely far more widespread than just NZ.

                However, it is to be hoped that the NZ experience forced Israel to accept that 'the passport' is recognition of a nation’s sovereignty and is to be respected. To use it as a rite of passage by people for possible nefarious purposes is what was shameful my friend.

                Over the years I have had numerous Jewish friends both in NZ and in Britain. I have also lived and worked with them. They are no more responsible for what is done in their name as most Palestinians are not responsible for what Hamas has done in theirs.

  5. Adrian 5
    20 November 2023 at 8:41 am

    For someone who has spent a life in deodorants Luxon really is stink.

  6. Blazer 6
    20 November 2023 at 8:50 am

    So Capt Chris Hipkins is starting over with a blank sheet.

    I suggest he writes on it…'if you don't like my principles…I do have…others'!(G.Marx)

    • Sanctuary 6.1
      20 November 2023 at 9:00 am

      If a politician has a good idea of where they want to go, then their ways and means can – and should be – flexible.

    • Patricia Bremner 6.2
      20 November 2023 at 4:50 pm

      Send that message to Winston Blazer. He of the many Rodeo Horses for Courses.

  7. Barfly 7
    20 November 2023 at 9:17 am

    Well… what will Winston's presence save us from?

    Asset sales

    Frozen minimum wage increases

    State housing sales

    Cuts to superannuation increases

    An increase to the Superannuation age

    Anyone got more?

    • aj 7.1
      20 November 2023 at 9:58 am

      That would be enough to be considered a win for reason. Trouble is what he may trade that for would be a win for 'feelings'

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.2
      20 November 2023 at 11:51 am

      Probably foreign land purchases?

    • lprent 7.3
      20 November 2023 at 1:16 pm

      Apparently what it won’t save us from is Winston wanting to pervert the justice system. It appears that his revenge intention is just that – and is one of the 3 sticking points to a coalition agreement.

    • SPC 7.4
      20 November 2023 at 5:25 pm

      What will he block

      An increase in super age – yes

      A reduced rate of super – yes (he will will want 66 per cent maintained as the base)

      National's plan to open up sale of all homes over $2m to foreigners – yes

      Freezing MW (ACT wants this not National) – yes

      What might he block

      Asset sales uncertain (Rail/Kiwibank are probably safe from sale).

      State House sales (he does not oppose people buying the home they live in – this occurred 1996-1998, when he accepted market rents) otherwise uncertain

      Small increases in MW uncertain – he might call for CPI rate increases

    • Muttonbird 7.5
      20 November 2023 at 5:34 pm

      I read somewhere he wants retirement villages for over 65 renters of which there will be many in the years to come.

      If he can get that over the line I'll probably forgive him for most things.

      • bwaghorn 7.5.1
        20 November 2023 at 5:43 pm

        Sounds good, I.might need one yet,

      • SPC 7.5.2
        20 November 2023 at 6:24 pm

        I'd read that he was concerned at the lack of planning for a sufficient number of aged care places.

        One answer to that problem is community housing and sharing support – with meals and health checks/care providers. So people can stay in that environment

        Government payment AS for places of those without ownership and others buying a place.

        Taking business off the Oz bloodsuckers (right of occupancy) would be smart government action (savings and keeping value domestically rather than profits offshore).

  8. Sanctuary 8
    20 November 2023 at 9:36 am

    Fun fact of the day:

    The Soviet Union came into being 7th November, 1917 and ceased to exist 26th December 1991. It lasted 74 years and 49 days.

    The People's Republic of China came into existence on the 1st October 1949 and has lasted 74 years and fifty days.

    As of today, the PRC has existed longer than the USSR.

    • Mac1 8.1
      20 November 2023 at 11:08 am

      Even more fun…. I have outlasted then both by nearly four weeks……. so far…. work in progress.

      I have seen eleven governments fall in New Zealand and voted Labour 19 times, twice for myself. I have lived 48 years under National, and 27 under Labour.

      In my voting lifetime I have seen four Labour-led governments and four National-led governments,

      And as we change governments in 2023 what do we remember of those governments? Which changed our lives? Which do we remember positively and which PMs do we respect?

  9. adam 9
    20 November 2023 at 10:11 am

    WINZ already acting like the Tory fucks have directed them to beat down on the poor and disabled.

    Three days trying to call them to get a client emergency dental work, and at every hour we call, they hang up the phone. (four days if you count calling on Saturday)

    Edit: Before some dick says go to the web site – we did and they told us to call the 0800 number.

    • Tiger Mountain 9.1
      20 November 2023 at 11:43 am

      MSD/WINZ do not require much direction to put people through their sadistic maze, their deep culture since the 80s is to punish the ‘underserving’ vulnerable. Full entitlements are not explained, mobile phones and internet access required–keep enough data while unemployed or poor? yeah right…MSD are world experts at “losing” previously supplied documents, and not having a “record of that call”…

      The legislation is still based on the 1964 Social Security Act, from a time of often single earner families, married, with kids. Now in the era of single carers and blended families, they still spy on people’s social media and encourage dobbers regarding relationship status. Benefits should be personal to holder regardless of who you live with. Labour managed that for a second tier middle class COVID benefit.

      I don’t need to go on adam, I totally get your situation, I know many in the North seeking urgent assistance for food or health issues that have just got the runaround. My partner has been an unemployed and beneficiary advocate previously, and one of the disturbing things is that a number of case managers etc. are bloody PSA union members.

      • Visubversa 9.1.1
        20 November 2023 at 3:19 pm

        I remember having a lot of fun with some WINZ flunky who rang me at my office trying to track down a refugee friend of mine for whom I had done some advocacy work in the past. She had moved to Australia and the WINZ guy was saying that she owed them some money and did I have her address.

        I said that it did not matter whether I had her address or not, that I was going to treat him in exactly the same way that WINZ had treated me when I had rung them to try and make a booking to take her in to see them the week after she was discharged from hospital. They quoted the Privacy Act at me and said that she had to ring them, or I had to have her with me when I rang for the appointment.

        I told the WINZ guy that I would give him some very important information about her which might help him. The information was that most Ethiopian people of her culture do not have family names (surnames) which pass down through the generations. The last name drops off in every generation. Accordingly, he should not waste his time looking at telephone directories in the city he thought she had moved to in order to find the same family name.

        And then I said "goodbye" and hung up.

        • Tiger Mountain 9.1.1.1
          20 November 2023 at 3:34 pm

          Yes the stories abound. Friend of mine in wheel chair for years, on dialysis, who knitted small items on a rig with his one good hand for his Church store to feel useful, was dragged into a WINZ meeting and told to make better efforts to be work ready or sanctions would apply!

          His carer asked the new case manager “have you got eyes?”…“read his health records?”…my friend was in tears, luckily a manager who knew him intervened and the family appointed a strong advocate to be present in any future dealings.

          • Anne 9.1.1.1.1
            20 November 2023 at 5:37 pm

            I wrote to WINZ in the 1990s at a time when I was looking after my elderly mother who had dementia, and told them that I was well aware they had me under surveillance and there are witnesses (there was one), and I knew who it was who had reported me to them and if I saw those two 'perfed' police officers once more there would be consequences. There was silence and no… I did not see them again.

            It was in the days of Christine Rankin of "dob a beneficiary a day" fame.

            • SPC 9.1.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2023 at 6:33 pm

              Work and Income was founded on October 1 1998 and Rankin was its first head. A culmination of her 20 year career there.

              Short skirts big earings – all the better to hear of any entrapment into unapproved sexual activity. It was an inference that the poor were being divided into two groups – deserving and undeserving.

              They had already begun to contract out services to faith based groups by that time.

              Keep an eye on Luxon's plan to install outside contractor management over those under 25 on a benefit – it is a compendium to the easy hire and fire rule (screening out unionists and testing pliability).

              This goes back to early 20th C business thinking about workforce management/quality control. And onto the American regime since then – faith based provider term limit welfare and a high prison population etc.

              • Anne …
                20 November 2023 at 9:01 pm

                Short skirts big earings – all the better to hear of any entrapment into unapproved sexual activity.

                You forgot to mention the boobs almost falling out of her tops. It was as if she was taunting the less fortunate… I'm important and sex is okay for people like me, but woe betide you sniveling slobs if you think you can have sex and a benefit as well.

    • SPC 9.2
      20 November 2023 at 4:16 pm

      Think about their staff for a moment.

      How many want those jobs under a NACT government?

      Many are taking unused leave while looking for other jobs.

      They will be operating with skeleton staff levels.

      ACT will not need to cut their staffing, the trouble will be finding staff.

  10. newsense 10
    20 November 2023 at 10:33 am

    Didn’t hear this during the campaign from…anyone.
    By trying to wind shadow the opposition, Labour smeared itself and its good work in shit. Chippy has a lot of work to clean up in the Education sector, which obscured the excellent work done on apprenticeships and other non-university training. Perhaps it comes as a surprise that some ministers and policies had beefed implemented more successfully, despite what the opposition and their expensive PR people said.

    The reset and focus on cut backs and how terrible the cost of living was ignored the ways that things were much better for a lot of people because of government action.

    Max Rashbrooke is no cheerleader for Labour. He managed to save this column until after the election and focuses on the work done by ‘many governments’ and how the areas like truancy were ‘National’s focus on this should improve this result.’

    However, in a way that almost takes the piss, topic after topic of progress ‘could reverse under the new government.’

    Lament and bang your head against a wall, that our current crop of politicians don’t at all look like leaders.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/20-11-2023/12-graphs-that-show-new-zealand-isnt-doing-as-badly-as-you-think

  11. Visubversa 11
    20 November 2023 at 11:47 am

    This is what happens when cults interfere in politics. Who can forget the Herald picture of the dozen or so well fed Pakeha blokes from the Exclusive Brethren sitting around a table admitting that they had been behind an anonymous leaflet drop targeting Labour and the Green Party?

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/20/we-prayed-helen-clark-would-fall-out-of-a-plane-brethren-book/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=74b30aac5b-Daily_Briefing+20.11.2023&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-74b30aac5b-97863395&mc_cid=74b30aac5b&mc_eid=90ced3872f

  13. Ad 13
    20 November 2023 at 2:21 pm

    Argentina those poor bastards.

    Javier Milei makes Roger Douglas look like a commie.

    But that’s who they’ve just voted in as President.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.1
      20 November 2023 at 5:14 pm

      Argentina and Chile – both drawn towards authoritarians and extreme "free market" (aka looting) types.

      Javier Milei sounds awful.

    • Bearded Git 13.2
      20 November 2023 at 6:46 pm

      +100 Ad…..Trump…Bolsonaro…..Milei.

    • SPC 13.3
      20 November 2023 at 7:12 pm

      Argentina has already tried the US dollar as currency – they defaulted on their debt last time. Climate change denial and libertarian economics, with a soft sport for a past junta – OK and supported by Bolsonaro and Trump.

      As one bolt hole for those of former regimes closes another one opens up. It's so post 1945.

    • pat 13.4
      20 November 2023 at 7:23 pm

      With inflation running in excess 140%pa I imagine the average Argentinian is willing to try anything different…whether they get the difference they want may be another story.

  14. observer 14
    20 November 2023 at 3:50 pm

    Old man welcomes new government, hopes to return to golden age when low-paid workers weren't so thoughtlessly inconvenient …

    "We predominantly hire females who go and have babies …"

    Rodney Wayne blasts previous government after 'very tough 12 months' | RNZ News

    • Descendant Of Smith 14.1
      20 November 2023 at 4:12 pm

      Baby boomers are getting older, retiring and spending less.

      Retail is going to have to get used to the fact that the golden days of two incomes, mortgage paid off, no children at home big spenders are over.

      This coupled with on-line shopping, building large shopping malls away from the CBD and increased recyling through facebook, etc means many retail outlets will close.

      The young have low wages and high rents so they can't spend much either.

      You reap what you sow.

    • AB 14.2
      20 November 2023 at 4:50 pm

      Bloody babies, who needs em? The sacred duty of young "females" is to make old dudes like him richer. Unfortunately, when he needs healthcare workers in future to wipe his arse when he's in a retirement home, they'll import long-suffering Filipinos to do it.

  15. Muttonbird 15
    20 November 2023 at 3:54 pm

    Lol. I was just about to post this, but too late:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301011504/live-luxon-says-significant-milestone-reached-but-peters-pushes-back

    Luxton making that comment to the media didn't feel like it had been approved by Peters and so it appears. Winston Peters would never allow a person with which he is negotiating to make 'significant milestone' announcements without him.

    Buxton just annoyed him even more.

    The Cordis Coalition of Chaos.

  16. observer 16
    20 November 2023 at 4:17 pm

    They will edit it eventually, so enjoy this spectacular headline fail while you can …

    Election 2023: Political commentator says Winston Peters' 'boasting' is 'coming back to bite him' | Newshub

    (if confused, read the article. Newshub did not).

  17. Bearded Git 17
    20 November 2023 at 4:25 pm

    From your link Tiger:

    "The conservative Popular Party won elections in July, but leader Alberto Núñez Feijóo failed to form a majority"

    The BBC really doesn't understand the partly PR system in Spain. As lprent says below, only Sanchez "won" as he is the only one who was able to form a majority government.

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