Open mike 21/03/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 21st, 2024 - 146 comments
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146 comments on “Open mike 21/03/2024 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    21 March 2024 at 6:56 am

    Got no money, got no plan for improving access to dental care.

    Still not an excuse for doing nothing.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/03/20/dentists-call-for-sugary-drink-ban-in-secondary-schools/

    • Robert Guyton 1.1
      21 March 2024 at 9:46 am

      The Right have fought the banning of sugary-drinks-in-secondary-schools since the year dot.

      • Phillip ure 1.1.1
        21 March 2024 at 11:04 am

        The only way to fix the sugar problem…

        ..is to set maximum amounts allowed..in food/drinks…in legislation if necessary..

        To do any less is just a bandaid on a supperating wound..

        • Descendant Of Smith 1.1.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 11:33 am

          There was a NZ scientist who contributed to the WHO guidelines for exactly that It was removed in the final guidelines by the sugar industry. They are a powerful beast who are likely still crying over the abolition of slavery.

          The removal of the maximum was important as it shifted the responsibility for less sugar in food from the manufacturer to the consumer. The industry can kick into action pretty quickly when they want.

          "The sugar industry in the US is threatening to bring the World Health Organisation to its knees by demanding that Congress end its funding unless the WHO scraps guidelines on healthy eating, due to be published on Wednesday.

          The threat is being described by WHO insiders as tantamount to blackmail and worse than any pressure exerted by the tobacco lobby.

          The industry is furious at the guidelines, which say that sugar should account for no more than 10% of a healthy diet. It claims that the review by international experts which decided on the 10% limit is scientifically flawed, insisting that other evidence indicates that a quarter of our food and drink intake can safely consist of sugar."

          https://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/apr/21/usnews.food

          And of course there was the true conspiracy to blame fat.

          The sugar-funded project in question was a literature review, examining a variety of studies and experiments. It suggested there were major problems with all the studies that implicated sugar, and concluded that cutting fat out of American diets was the best way to address coronary heart disease.

          For one thing, there's motivation and intent. In 1954, the researchers note, the president of the SRF gave a speech describing a great business opportunity.

          If Americans could be persuaded to eat a lower-fat diet — for the sake of their health — they would need to replace that fat with something else. America's per capita sugar consumption could go up by a third."

          https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists-to-point-blame-at-fat

    • gsays 1.2
      21 March 2024 at 12:17 pm

      All the above is good and I'm down with it, with one proviso, the sugar isn't replaced by artificial sweeteners.

      Cough 'accumulative neuro toxin' cough.

      • weka 1.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 12:21 pm

        which raises another question. How to help kids transition off sugar. And how to ensure kids get adequate nutrients especially where nutrient deficiency underlies sugar cravings.

        • gsays 1.2.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 12:31 pm

          I'm not pretending to have all the answers but food in schools done properly would be part of the solution.

          By properly I mean food cooked in-house or another school or high school. Not this neo liberal subcontracting food for profit carry on we have currently.

          Both Japan and France offer great models we could aspire to.

        • bwaghorn 1.2.1.2
          21 March 2024 at 4:40 pm

          . How to help kids transition off sugar

          Don't give it to them seems to work,

          • weka 1.2.1.2.1
            21 March 2024 at 4:59 pm

            have you ever hard stopped eating all sugars when you've been eating them daily for a long time? It's not pleasant. And even if that was ok, the impact on behaviours at school is an issue.

            • Phillip ure 1.2.1.2.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 7:00 pm

              Yes..I used to have two and a half sugars in tea..

              ..would smother porridge in brown sugar..etc etc..

              One day..a long time ago..I was getting a bit chubby..

              ..so I decided to kick sugar..

              ..on the difficulty of giving up scale..it ranks about 1.5..

              ..just a bit harder than cocaine..which was a doddle..

              ..and products will be able to still have sugar in them..just not the exorbitant amounts now permitted..

              ..given the damage it does…some grumpy kids for awhile..seems a bearable price to pay…

              .. anyway..there are also other natural sweeteners for them..

              Setting maximum amounts is a no-brainer..really..

              • weka …
                21 March 2024 at 7:03 pm

                what did the scale run from and to?

                • Phillip ure …
                  21 March 2024 at 7:17 pm

                  Zero to ten…

                  Heroin @ 8.5..

                  Alcohol/cigs 4.5..

                  I still have sugar in things I consume that have sugar in them..but not too much..

              • Phillip ure …
                21 March 2024 at 7:15 pm

                And so much stuff is sodden with sugar…and is peddled as being healthy for children..

                Go and have a look how much sugar is in milo..

                ..just reading the amount could give you a sugar rush..

                ..so..change to another hot chocolate that is what it claims…and is not just chocolate flavoured sugar..

    • Rose 2.1
      21 March 2024 at 7:17 am

      Frankly, one might more reasonably ask can NZ survive if kiwi rail don’t exit the cook straight? Quite happy for them to Choo Choo a few trains up and down the country when we have trucks as a realistic alternative. Meanwhile with their proven unreliability on the straight, maybe time for some one else to have a go.

      • Tony Veitch 2.1.1
        21 March 2024 at 7:35 am

        Yup, the usual neoliberal mantra – private companies can do it better.

        Just like they have in the UK with train and water services!

        • Rose 2.1.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 7:39 am

          Indeed. Train services in the Uk are fabulous.

          [Please fix the typo in your email address in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

          • Incognito 2.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 8:32 am

            Mod note

          • alwyn 2.1.1.1.2
            21 March 2024 at 9:35 am

            Is HS2 a Government or a private company project?

          • Visubversa 2.1.1.1.3
            21 March 2024 at 10:13 am

            Train services in the UK are appalling. We were there late last year and of the 8 or so train journeys we did only one was anything like comfortable and on time. It does not matter if you have booked seats or not – if your train is cancelled (often because of driver shortages) then you are thrown into the melee.

            The trains that do go are horrendously overcrowded – we got one from York to Manchester that was full to the doors and the air conditioning had failed. The only fresh air was that which came in during the less than a minute dwell times at the stations. Two days later a driver refused to take a Manchester train out of Euston station because it was so overcrowded it was not safe.

            We had another booked journey for a direct route from Manchester to Birmingham which was cancelled at the last minute and we were redirected to a change at Crewe and another change at Tamworth. It took 3 times the journey time and we had to stand on an outdoor platform at Tamworth for 30 minutes between connections.

            If you are older and have luggage it can be very distressing to deal with. If we go back there again – we will travel intercity by coach. It may take longer, but they stow luggage properly and you actually get the seats you book.

            • Tony Veitch 2.1.1.1.3.1
              21 March 2024 at 10:28 am

              Yes, I had similar experiences with UK trains about 5 years ago.

              But . . . but private companies do it better! (Repeat until you've got it by heart!)

              • Visubversa …
                21 March 2024 at 10:57 am

                We did the same sort of journeys in 2019 without so much drama. Our overall impression of England this time is that nothing seems to work properly.

                The local CO-OP supermarket in Leeds regularly ran out of baskets as people would come into the store, fill them up, and just walk out without paying, basket and all. The shop staff were not going to put themselves at risk stopping them.

                We certainly did not want to go out at night at all.

            • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1.3.2
              21 March 2024 at 10:53 am

              John Major, who idiotically privatised British Rail, splitting it into numerous uncoordinated and self-interested private companies, has much to answer for.

            • Rose 2.1.1.1.3.3
              21 March 2024 at 10:56 am

              Ah yes, but you got a train going when and where you wanted. Meanwhile here we have / had Te Huia and …. Crickets

              • Visubversa …
                21 March 2024 at 10:59 am

                Well, no we didn't. Not without a lot of bother, and at some risk to our health and wellbeing.

          • Macro 2.1.1.1.4
            21 March 2024 at 11:26 am

            I think the data shows your contention above to be completely false. The only time the trains in the UK ran on time was during covid – when obviously everyone avoided them.

      • SPC 2.1.2
        21 March 2024 at 7:44 am

        The same quality of argument is that if the RNZAF struggle with old transport planes, they should not get new ones.

        It is this government that blocked KiwiRail plan to get replacement ferries, because they had $30B of roads to fund and a $5B hole.

    • SPC 2.2
      21 March 2024 at 7:40 am

      Enabling a privately owned monopoly, unable to efficiently shift freight off rail, would be of an effort to end rail freight and give road trucking a monopoly.

      There would need to be an investigation of the connections between this government and all involved in this industry for corruption on a grand scale.

      • Sanctuary 2.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 8:13 am

        Rentier capitalism is the economic model of choice for NZ's decadent new right aristocracy. Our captains of industry would love nothing better than investing in a private sector shipping company that charges monopoly rents to cross Cook Strait while offering a level of service and safety that would make the owners of the MV Doña Paz uneasy.

    • Graeme 2.3
      21 March 2024 at 1:25 pm

      Leaving aside the ability of Kiwi Rail to provided ongoing service across Cook Strait, there's got to be some Government control / regulation of the service. It is a vital single point link on SH 1, and just a bit important the Country's economy.

      Down here we found out just how important that link was when it got disrupted by the Kaikoura earthquakes and covid, freight rates went through the roof and delivery / supply became patchy at best.

      The current link through Picton is a legacy of 1940's thinking and maybe could be reviewed, but there's been many alternatives that haven't survived or made it of the plans. So Picton is probably the best option we've got.

      But it's dangerous political waters for any party that wants to try and fuck with. Empty or expensive supermarket shelves and businesses closing or moving north because of freight issues won't go down well at elections. A lot of the South is quite marginal electorally and seats and party vote can and does switch abruptly. Nicola and Simion will have to come up with a solid plan to ensure an adequate and affordable service across Cook Strait or there'll be a lot of their voters asking some very impertinent questions.

      • bwaghorn 2.3.1
        21 March 2024 at 1:40 pm

        there'll be a lot of their voters asking some very impertinent questions.

        Looking at the slow car wreak this government is turning into the aging ferries will be here long after them .

  3. bwaghorn 3
    21 March 2024 at 9:23 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/money/350220152/investors-have-top-rent-payments-hundreds-week

    Why are we expected to have sympathy for poor investors?

    Cut subsidies today, if a person can prove they have paid rent consistently for 2 years allow no deposit mortgages, build more apartments.

    • weka 3.1
      21 March 2024 at 9:39 am

      at a guess, a deposit is required so banks don't lose money if there is a mortgagee sale. Which seems a bit daft given how much property prices increase, but it's probably not going to change.

      • bwaghorn 3.1.1
        21 March 2024 at 9:42 am

        Saving for deposit while paying rent must be a hell of an impediment

        • weka 3.1.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 10:33 am

          yep. We could be setting up systems that give people access to deposits. Government did this for women on the DPB in the 80s/90s.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 10:34 am

            maybe a deposit that is paid back to the government when the house is sold.

            • joe90 3.1.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 11:02 am

              Finance and extend coverage of the, currently over-subscribed, Kāinga Ora shared ownership scheme.

              What is Shared Ownership?

              Shared ownership means that you initially share ownership of the home with a third party who purchases the home with you (in this case Kāinga Ora). You are the majority homeowner and occupier, but we will own a share in the home, that you will buy out over time.

              The make-up of shared ownership will be determined by several factors, including:

              1. How much of a deposit you have
              2. How much a participating lender is willing to lend you
              3. How much contribution Kāinga Ora will make towards purchasing the home with you.

              For example, you may have saved 10% of the purchase price of a home and a participating bank is willing to lend you 75%. Kāinga Ora then contributes 15% to purchase the home with you in return for a 15% share of ownership in the home.

              https://kaingaora.govt.nz/home-ownership/first-home-partner/

            • Phillip ure 3.1.1.1.1.2
              21 March 2024 at 8:37 pm

              Or just folded into the mortgage…

    • alwyn 3.2
      21 March 2024 at 9:43 am

      "allow no deposit mortgages".

      A person who wants a repeat of the subprime mortgages that was a major cause of the GFC of 2007-2008. As George Santayana so eloquently put it.

      “Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.”

      • bwaghorn 3.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 9:57 am

        https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/what-is-a-subprime-mortgage-en-110/

        “””A subprime mortgage is generally a loan that is meant to be offered to prospective borrowers with impaired credit records. The higher interest rate is intended to compensate the lender for accepting the greater risk in lending to such borrowers.””

        You might have the wrong definition it would appear

        • gsays 3.2.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 12:27 pm

          After reading and watching Michael Lewis's The Big Short as well as others I can assure you Alwyn is wrong.

          Brokers were renowned for NINJA loans. No Income No Job but that didn't stop them being signed up for mortgages.

          You often hear parasites landlords regurgitate the refrain "the tenants can't afford a mortgage", when it is clear the tenant can afford the landlord's mortgage and rates and insurance and…

          • alwyn 3.2.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 3:07 pm

            Why did you leave out the full meaning of NINJA?

            You say it was "No Income No Job". Why did you leave out the final bit that was No Assets? What is a no deposit loan but a loan to someone who has no assets?

            • gsays 3.2.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 6:40 pm

              Because I made my point.

              You don't need assets to service a mortgage in the fractional reserve banking environment that we operate in.

  4. Phillip ure 4
    21 March 2024 at 9:44 am

    So…john key led a gummint that refused to bring in open banking..

    …which the monopolist-banksters didn't want..

    ..and which was the norm in most other countries..

    ..and then he went on to become one of those banksters..

    .. corruption in nz isn't usually briefcases bulging with cash..

    .. it's more of a physical-interaction..

    ..involving lots of mutual back-scratching..

    ..I would submit that is the case here..

  5. joe90 5
    21 March 2024 at 10:44 am

    How Russia treats the (700,000) children they've kidnapped.

    /

    @DrJadeMcGlynn

    This is such a terrifying piece, especially the longer Russian version. The English one is terrifying enough though.

    Lilia Yapparova

    @lilia_yapparova

    It was genuinely scary to cull through the docs leaked from Russia’s Education Ministry. They force deported Ukrainian kids into an indoctrination course — and carry out surveillance on those who’re not instilled with “Russian identity” quickly enough.

    https://meduza.io/en/feature/2024/03/11/they-could-start-to-resist

    https://twitter.com/lilia_yapparova/status/1767886887274815809

    https://twitter.com/DrJadeMcGlynn/status/1770519669901778979

  6. Bearded Git 6
    21 March 2024 at 10:46 am

    Tarras International Airport in Central Otago may well be applied for any day now under the new fast track legislation. Simian will doubtless wave it through and there will be nothing the fine folk of Godzone will be able to do to stop it.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/512259/the-unprecedented-power-the-government-is-handing-three-of-its-ministers-under-its-new-fast-track-approval-bill

    • weka 6.1
      21 March 2024 at 10:47 am

      is that why they pulled back last year, waiting for this?

    • JeremyB 6.2
      21 March 2024 at 3:33 pm

      "nothing the fine folk of Godzone will be able to do to stop it."
      There is always the option of direct action.

      • weka 6.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 3:50 pm

        yep. I'm really hoping the climate activists will step up on this one. Lots of resistance from locals too.

      • Bearded Git 6.2.2
        21 March 2024 at 4:47 pm

        I'm with you there Jeremy….I will be helping the people of Tarras (I know some of them) if the fast-track starts.

        While direct action is unlikely (IMHO) to influence somebody like Simeon Brown (who doesn’t give a toss about climate change), turning Tarras and the fast-track process into a major NZ-wide issue could help the Left win in 2026.

  7. Phillip ure 7
    21 March 2024 at 10:51 am

    Memo to labour party looking for policy ideas:

    Finland has the happiest citizens on the planet award in an iron grip..

    And this in a country very cold most of the time..and living under the direct shadow of putin…

    It could be a useful exercise to have a look at what finland does for it's citizens ..and how it could fit here..

    We seem to be going in the wrong direction..and we seem to know this..

    ..we have just slipped out of the top ten happiest countries..

    ..so…y'know..!

    ..it wouldn't hurt..would it..to have a look at their winning formula…

    .. whaddya reckon..?

    • Bearded Git 7.1
      21 March 2024 at 11:00 am

      The Happiness survey was taken between the years 2021-2023 when NZ was happily continuing as usual under lockdown while the rest of the world (apart from WA) was being disrupted by masses of covid cases and millions of covid related deaths.

      How did we end up in only 11th place?

    • bwaghorn 7.2
      21 March 2024 at 11:07 am

      What??? Use evidence over ideology, what a silly idea.

      • Phillip ure 7.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 11:22 am

        I have long thought that would/could be the seed of a new political party..

        To pick new/fresh policies ( for here)…from proven successful policies elsewhere..

        ..so really it's a no-brainer for labour to look over there..

        ..for policy ideas that will excite the electorate ..

        ..an electorate very tired of the same-old same-old..

        ..we don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time..

        ..the answers to our burning questions are already out there..

        • Belladonna 7.2.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 11:45 am

          My understanding is that this is what TOP tried to do…..

          Basically, it seems to be 'too hard' to shift the electorate from the familiar parties – to trying something new – in the short term.

          Suspect that it requires multiple elections and decades, to actually gain enough traction to even be a contender to make a difference.

          The trajectory of the Green Party rather illustrates the point.

          An electoral answer would be to move the dial on the vote percentage required for election – down to 1-2%. Which would enable some of these minor parties to get into parliament – and (potentially) into government as part of a coalition. Once you're in parliament, you have a much greater chance of the support/funding required to increase the size of your representation.

          ATM – it's much easier to finagle the electoral rules in order to gain an electorate seat, than it is to rely on party vote (David Seymour for ACT and Jim Anderton for New Labour are both examples of this happening).

          There are downsides to reducing the threshold – in terms of making coalitions more difficult to form, and the risk of the tail wagging the dog. We see examples of both in Europe – when it can take months to form a government, and minor parties often wield influence far greater than the numbers.

          • Phillip ure 7.2.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 7:29 pm

            If so..top did a crap job of selling those ideas..

            ..all the action around them seemed to focus on the leader winning a chch seat..

            • Belladonna 7.2.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 9:20 pm

              So is there any political party that you think has a fresh kit of ideas?

              Or does one have to spring from the brow of Zeus?

              The point that I was making is that – unlike you – the electorate doesn't seem to get very excited over new and innovative policies and new and untried parties.

        • Descendant Of Smith 7.2.1.2
          21 March 2024 at 12:54 pm

          Many are there in our own history. From my post back in 2010.

          These are the sorts of policies that if espoused by a party would get my vote.

          1. The principle of an egalitarian society with all citizens being looked after and supported
          2. A clear statement that an increasing gap between the top and the bottom is not to be desired due to the negative social impacts. That the country should move forward as a whole.
          3, A fair days work for a fair days pay. The 8 hour working day and the 40 hour working week should be re-instated. Anyone working more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week should be paid time and a half. Salaries – by which some employers currently use to get around the minimum wage rules – should be set a a minimum equivalent of 40 hours per week X 120% of the minimum wage.
          4. Benefit rates should be increased immediately by the $20-00 per week cut made years ago. Labour should be deeply embarrassed by reinstating this for NZS but not for benefits.
          5. Government should undertake as part of their social commitment to provide jobs for young people and people with disabilities – particularly in times of recession. Government Departments should be funded specifically for this. The private sector should be supported to provide jobs for people with significant disabilities by having their health / productivty assessed on a 3 yearly basis and having the difference between the productivity assessment and the Invalids Benefit paid to the employer – until the person turns 65 and qualifies for NZS if need be. Workers must be paid at least the minimum wage.
          6. All shop trading should cease on Sundays from 12:00 pm so workers all have half a day a week to spend with their families. This includes bars. This will also be positive for people running small businesses who have currently little choice but to open because their big competitors are.
          7. Alcohol should not be able to be sold in dairies and similar outlets.
          8. Gambling machines except in the casinos should be banned – this includes pubs and RSA’s.
          9. A clear progressive tax system should be implemented with the proviso each year that 20% of any surplus should be returned to all tax payers in equal shares as a lump sum payment.
          10. Depreciation should be clearly removed as a tax deduction. The basic principle should be to claim your costs when you actually incur them.
          11. All employers can claim a flat $500-00 per year per employee for costs associated with keeping employees motivated – social clubs, Christmas and staff functions etc. No other costs beyond this can be claimed as a taxable expense. This puts all workers and all employers on an even footing.
          12. Families with non-working or part-time working partners ( less than say $15,000 per annum) should be able to split their income for tax purposes.
          13. Family Benefit should be re-introduced so all people with children get this assistance regardless of income. Raising children should be valued.

          There’s some thoughts anyway.

          https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11062010/#comment-224176

        • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.3
          21 March 2024 at 1:14 pm

          Multiple reviews of Aotearoa NZ's MMP voting system have recommended decreasing the 5% party vote threshold – presumably they had their reasons.
          But these recommendations have not been followed – funny that wink

          Drop threshold from 5% to 4% – MMP review [14 August 2012]

          Electoral Commission urges Parliament to lower 5 per cent party vote threshold and abolish coat-tailing – again [18 May 2021]

          Electoral review recommends 3.5% threshold, voting age of 16
          [5 June 2023]
          An independent review of New Zealand’s electoral system has concluded a major shake-up of MMP is needed to ensure a fairer and more accessible democracy

          Electoral review’s major recommendations ruled out on release of final report [17 Jan 2024]

          • Belladonna 7.2.1.3.1
            21 March 2024 at 9:23 pm

            But these recommendations have not been followed – funny that

            Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

            Reducing the electoral threshold would automatically reduce the significance of the major parties – of course they're not going to agree.

            Unless it gets bundled in with something they do want but is electorally unpopular (e.g. 4 year terms)

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2.1.3.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 10:30 pm

              Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.

              Turkeys don’t vote, period smiley

              Reducing the electoral threshold would automatically reduce the significance of the major parties – of course they're not going to agree.

              NZ's major political parties didn't particularly relish the idea of MMP either:

              The politicians respond
              Few of Labour's leaders welcomed the commission's recommendations, however, and the government tried to sideline the issue. Although National's leadership also disliked the idea of MMP, they saw an opportunity to embarrass the government over its failure to respond to the commission's proposals.

              And yet here we are, with an arguably fairer, more progressive and more popular voting system.

              Perhaps then the fairest way to establish whether our MMP system should adopt recommended tweeks would be via indicative and binding referendums, similar to those that ushered in MMP in the first place.

              In response to submitter feedback to the second consultation, we reconsidered whether a four per cent or three per cent party vote threshold would strike a better balance between a representative parliament and an effective parliament. We acknowledge the strong arguments in favour of each option, and we note these below.
              https://electoralreview.govt.nz/assets/PDF/Independent-Electoral-Review-Final-Report-November-2023.pdf

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_threshold

            • Phillip ure 7.2.1.3.1.2
              22 March 2024 at 1:26 pm

              I have mixed feelings on the four year term..

              As essentially now gummints usually get two bites of the apple..six years..

              Whereas a four yr term gives the electorate more time to decide if the then current mob are a waste of space..or not..

              ..and so save us from them sooner than usual…

              (Heh..!..have to admit this far-right three-headed hydra isn't doing much for the case for four year terms..)

              • Belladonna …
                22 March 2024 at 1:31 pm

                I find that your last point is the one holding most sway with people.
                They're perfectly happy to consider 4 years terms, so long as 'their' party (or at least a government they can live with) is in power. But when the roles are reversed, 3 years is too long.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                22 March 2024 at 4:28 pm

                Fun fact: For the first 25 years, New Zealand's parliamentry term was five years. The term was reduced to three years in 1879, and since then has only been altered (increased/prolonged) on three occasions.

                https://elections.nz/assets/Report-of-the-Royal-Commission-on-the-Electoral-System-1986/Chapter-6-the-term-of-parliament.pdf

                The major challenges that fully democractic countries are facing on overshoot spaceship Earth will likely bring those in genuine need, not to mention inconvenienced well-to-do moaners, more to the fore, and that won’t favour longer parliamentary terms, imho.

                Still, major global challenges might just knit us together – dreams are free.

    • joe90 7.3
      21 March 2024 at 11:42 am

      It could be a useful exercise to have a look at what finland does for it's citizens

      Affordable, quality housing and heating means warm, happy people.

    • gsays 7.4
      21 March 2024 at 12:37 pm

      Replace fluoride with MDMA in the water supply.​​​​​​devil

  8. James Simpson 8
    21 March 2024 at 10:59 am

    Thanks National

    Officially in recession. Economic geniuses.

  9. Tiger Mountain 9
    21 March 2024 at 11:02 am

    Is there any remaining vulnerable group for these tory scum to attack and demean? They have had a go at state tenants, school kids lunches, endangered animal species, low paid workers, and now disabled…

    Fightback time people, haunt these fuckers whenever they appear in public. And, if public housing tenants are evicted they should consider occupying the nearest “ghost houses” or even empty commercial property–there should be enough so affected to stretch the cops resources–who have also got a kicking from Mercenary Mitchell over their wages and conditions.

    Restricting Free Prescriptions is another negative measure…

    https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/better-health-services-and-access-due-free-prescriptions-survey

    • Obtrectator 9.1
      21 March 2024 at 12:38 pm

      Predictions:

      * prescription fees return

      * independent (community) pharmacies have no choice but to charge them

      * meanwhile, big international chains like Chemist Warehouse refrain from charging them because they can afford the temporary dip in cash flow, until

      * most or all of the independent pharmacies have been squeezed out of business, and then …

      * up go all the prices (including prescription fees), to whatever level the big firms think they can get away with the market can stand

  10. Jilly Bee 10
    21 March 2024 at 11:16 am

    Onya – Phillip Mills. If only some more well off people with a conscience would do the same. His stance has been published previously, but I just hope he doesn't face a backlash from the usual suspects. https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350210940/richlister-behind-les-mills-gym-empire-reveals-why-he-donates-political-parties

  11. Rose 11
    21 March 2024 at 11:54 am

    Robbos parting gift, a double dip recession.

    Thanks mate, you won’t be missed.

    https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8563046/double-dip-new-zealand-recession-confirmed/

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [you are starting to look like a troll. I suggest you figure out how things work here and up your game with regard to political discussion and debate rather than this lazy slur politics. Feel free to ask if you are unclear – weka]

    • weka 11.1
      21 March 2024 at 12:10 pm

      mod note.

    • Robert Guyton 11.2
      21 March 2024 at 5:19 pm

      "starting"???

    • KJT 11.3
      21 March 2024 at 6:27 pm

      National and the Reserve Bank have been talking the country into a recession for at least a year.

      And real business confidence, as reflected by investment in plant and staff, not the perceptions held by the delusional, in the near future is non existent, with the Coalition of Chaos's intentions to remove even more wealth/spending from the internal economy. Ruthanasia reprise!

      Why are you surprised that we are now getting one.

    • weka 11.4
      21 March 2024 at 6:36 pm

      mod note.

      • SPC 11.4.1
        21 March 2024 at 8:09 pm

        Doxxing? Moderators refer to the history of commentators quite a lot you know.

        • weka 11.4.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 9:03 pm

          yes, because we have looked up their history on TS and know it is already in the public domain. That's not doxxing.

          I have no idea what you were talking about and what you were referring to, because you didn't say and you provided zero context or links. Why is this difficult to understand?

          • SPC 11.4.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 9:11 pm

            I thought this was enough,

            She first came on here back in September 2008 to quote Michael Bassett on Helen Clark and mention Cullen's expensive train set.

            not using a link, is not doxxing.

            I’ll link to past posts, if mentioned, so people don’t have to go back and check.

            • weka 11.4.1.1.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 9:21 pm

              you made vague claims about a current commenter, including references to having an affair and another blog. I still have no idea what you were on about. You could easily have been doxxing. Seriously, you need to stop and listen to what I am saying here.

              If you had backed up all the things you were saying at the start we wouldn't be having this conversation.

      • Rose 11.5.1
        21 March 2024 at 7:06 pm

        I think you’ve taken aim at a target and ended up shooting yourself in foot.

        This Rose at least only became aware of this site in the past 18 months. This rose was living in the UK in the timeframe you mentioned and blissfully unconcerned with NZ politics at that time.

        Nice try but no cigar m.

        [Please fix the same typo again in your email address in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

        • Incognito 11.5.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 8:49 pm

          Second Mod note.

        • SPC 11.5.1.2
          21 March 2024 at 9:01 pm

          I'll leave it to the management to clean up your "site history record".

          So your experience of functioning trains in England is recent?

          Some coincidence, the first post on the site by someone named Rose talked about Cullen and his expensive train set and about the debt left by Labour.

          And here you are, after the following Labour government leaving office talking about trains and debt.

          Is it in the troll farm playbook?

          • Rose 11.5.1.2.1
            21 March 2024 at 9:07 pm

            In relation to your second paragraph. Yes. I’ve taken dozens of trips on UK trains each year for the past 31 years.

            In relation to your other accusations, in your mind you think you’ve found a smoking gun. I know for a fact you are 100% incorrect, but there you have it. I leave you with the thoughts in your own head.

            • SPC 11.5.1.2.1.1
              21 March 2024 at 9:14 pm

              Thanks for the gaslighting.

              • weka …
                21 March 2024 at 9:23 pm

                that's not gaslighting. It's someone saying you made things up. I don't know who is right here, and neither do you. I suggest you leave it alone.

  12. gsays 12
    21 March 2024 at 12:43 pm

    I heard an interesting tid-bit on the radio this morning.

    Concerning bottom trawling for minerals in Taranaki, one of the uber ministers, Shane Jones, has recused himself from the decision making process.

    Edit.https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018931059/around-the-motu-robin-martin-in-taranaki
    Nearer the end of the piece.
    The whisper is Talley's don't like the idea of their fishing being disrupted.

  13. joe90 13
    21 March 2024 at 1:06 pm

    One person, one vote, unless you own land.

    /

    A party vote was called for on the question, That the Local Electoral (Abolition of the Ratepayer Roll) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.

    Ayes 55

    New Zealand Labour 34; Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand 15; Te Pāti Māori 6.

    Noes 68

    New Zealand National 49; ACT New Zealand 11; New Zealand First 8.

    Motion not agreed to.

    https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20240320_20240320_40

    Last week, a bill that proposes to abolish the ratepayers roll – which allows people who own properties in multiple council areas to vote in local elections in each of those areas – was drawn from the parliament biscuit tin. Shanti Mathias explains.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/19-02-2024/a-new-members-bill-wants-to-stop-landlords-getting-extra-votes-in-local-elections

    • weka 13.1
      21 March 2024 at 5:06 pm

      it's hard to know how to manage that one. If you own a holiday home in another area, or even a rental in another area, it's understandable that you want a vote in the election of the people who determine things like rates, rules around housing and such.

      Maybe cap it at two properties?

      Also, are the left now arguing one person, one vote?

    • Belladonna 13.2
      21 March 2024 at 7:00 pm

      No taxation without representation?

      It's important to note that it doesn't matter how much property you own within a single local government area, you only get one vote.

      It's only where you own property in two different local government areas, that you get to vote in both.

      The majority of people who are affected by this are not landlords (who tend to own their properties in a single city) – it's people with a holiday home or bach.

      Even the article says this isn’t a significant issue (as in most people don’t bother to enrol, even though they’re eligible) – it’s rather a matter of philosophical ‘fairness’.

      I should have thought the Labour Party had significantly more important issues to address…. [Yes, I know it’s a private members bill – but a bit more thought into what bills go into the biscuit tin, wouldn’t go amiss]

      There is also nothing in the legislation preventing the putative Machiavellian multiple-property owner from declaring their primary residence to be in the holiday-home area where they want to influence the outcome.

      • joe90 13.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 7:37 pm

        it's people with a holiday home or bach.

        And this how they behave.

        /

        A 30-year battle over a Coromandel skate park between locals and bach owners that involved “dirty tricks”, “bribery” and accusations of nimbyism has reached its conclusion in court.

        The community and waterfront property owners had been pitted against each other over a skate park in Tairua’s Cory Park Domain, near the estuary.

        A High Court judge has this week dismissed the request for a judicial review, mounted by Preserve Cory Park Domain Inc. This group, many of whom were from Auckland, opposed the park for its proximity to houses, potential noise, anti-social behaviour and sanitary fears about toileting.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300952830/30year-spat-with-bach-owners-over-skate-park-won-by-locals-fighting-for-their-right-to-shred

        • Belladonna 13.2.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 8:16 pm

          That's how some of them behave. Do you equally condemn all Kainga Ora residents because some are anti-social?

          Note the word 'many' in the article – which implies that at least some who oppose the development are permanent residents.

          It sounds like NIMBYism – not wanting their nice peaceful waterfront area to be contaminated by nasty skateboarding yoof. The fact that some are owners of holiday homes is a bit of a red herring.

          And the proposed legislation still wouldn't resolve this – as the out of towners could declare their holiday home their primary residence for electoral purposes.

          Nor would it prevent property owners taking cases to the High Court (you don't need to be a resident to do this)

  14. Peter 14
    21 March 2024 at 1:10 pm

    Hundreds to lose jobs as Ministry of Primary Industries cuts costs.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350220974/hundreds-lose-jobs-ministry-primary-industries-cuts-costs

    "MPI has wide-reaching responsibilities. It was tasked with growing and sustaining primary industries such as farming, forestry, fishing, wine and food production."

    "It also employed fisheries officers, responsible for patrolling marine protection areas and checking quotas.

    Its (sic) also employed Biosecurity officers at airports and ports, who check for invasive pests and disease which could decimate the primary industries. With cuts also confirmed at Customs, that meant there would be fewer people protecting the border by the end of the year."

    As long as those wallowing in the gains from tax cuts don't start grizzling about the wheels falling off somewhere in the system. There's plenty of scope thereconsidering the range of areas covered.

  15. Stephen D 15
    21 March 2024 at 1:24 pm

    Let’s hope MBovis doesn’t make a comeback.

  16. Stephen D 16
    21 March 2024 at 1:29 pm

    Economics 101, charge what the market can bear. Not cost plus

    So why do supposedly economically literate MPs in the CoC think rents will come down?

    No self respecting landlord in their right mind will pass on savings.

  17. joe90 17
    21 March 2024 at 3:42 pm

    Dollars to donuts a certain former PM knew about this.

    A foreign agency ran a spy operation out of New Zealand’s Government Communications Security Bureau for years without the government knowing.

    The Inspector General of Intelligence and Security has revealed this in an investigation out on Thursday.

    It has found the GCSB knew when it agreed to host the signals intelligence system it could be used to support "military operations by foreign partners".

    "The capability clearly had the potential to be used, in conjunction with other intelligence sources, to support military action against targets," the report by IGIS Brendan Horsley said.

    The system operated from 2013 until 2020, when it was stopped by an equipment failure.

    But government ministers were not told despite the agency knowing how sensitive it was.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/512310/foreign-agency-ran-spy-operation-out-of-gcsb-for-years

  18. weka 18
    21 March 2024 at 4:10 pm

    Um…

    EU ambassador to New Zealand Lawrence Meredith said the deal had the “highest approval rating” of any free trade deal in the European Parliament, which had already ratified it.

    “We think that's an excellent deal for both sides.

    “We're see big economic opportunities for European Union businesses and I would look in particular at the investment area and infrastructure. We're looking forward to the Government's upcoming privatisation of public infrastructure.

    "We believe that on the EU side there's opportunities on wind energy, wind turbines, but potentially in other areas of major infrastructure.“

    my emphasis.

    https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/politics/350219383/nz-eu-free-trade-deal-be-ratified-force-may

    • weka 18.1
      21 March 2024 at 4:12 pm

      This video explains how European publicly owned rail profits from ownership of UK privatised rail. Seems pertinent (someone linked on reddit)

    • newsense 18.2
      21 March 2024 at 8:41 pm

      Already in the shop window for spring sales!

  19. randal mcmurphy 19
    21 March 2024 at 5:55 pm

    NZ slipping down happiness index since nationals government took power

  20. Rosielee 20
    21 March 2024 at 6:12 pm

    Way past time we had some serious labour support actions. Strikes, protests, demos, whatever. Clearly, under this government, working people are screwed. Labour Party please take note.

    • weka 20.1
      21 March 2024 at 6:39 pm

      Too right. Lots of damage being done. Reminds me of the early 90s. Why aren’t we taking to the streets?

      • Rosielee 20.1.1
        21 March 2024 at 6:48 pm

        yes

      • gsays 20.1.2
        21 March 2024 at 6:50 pm

        Last time we got up on our hind legs, more than a few were ready to blather on about nazi's, freedumb, foreign right wing interference, death threats and repeat the rivers of filth moniker.

        Better take that energy and organise, and look out and care for those that have been screwed over.

    • Descendant Of Smith 20.2
      21 March 2024 at 6:56 pm

      I've pointed out previously you can only legally strike at the end of a contract and unions keep negotiating three year contracts. They need to start exerting a bit more power through one year contracts. Why the fuck you would limit your only strength to being able to be exercised only once every three years I don't know.

      (There are a few exceptions for health and safety reasons)

      Even the strike process is convoluted. Labour of course did sweet FA about strengthening the right to strike that we used to have eg going on strike to support other unions.

      "Let’s say one union covers the employees of one workplace, and they share a collective agreement. Before any strike takes place, the following things need to happen:.

      • The union needs to gather its members to vote on whether they should ask for more money, or begin ‘bargaining’ with the employer.
      • Wait until there is three months or less before the last agreement expires, then ask the employer to begin bargaining.
      • Once bargaining begins – something that can be full day affairs – it needs to pass the 40-day mark.
      • The union then needs to go back to its members and ask for a majority vote on whether they should strike.
      • The union then writes to the employer and Government to tell them it’s keen to strike, what the strike would look like, where it will happen and how to end it.
      • Workers may then serve a notice period before the strike begins, depending on what kind of work they’re in. For essential services, that could be up to 28 days."

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/130057198/explained-what-does-a-strike-actually-mean-or-do

      • weka 20.2.1
        21 March 2024 at 7:02 pm

        unions can organise protests and demos right though? They were central in the early 90s protests.

        • Descendant Of Smith 20.2.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 7:06 pm

          Absolutely. Been on a few of them myself. Took annual leave – or was already on annual leave.

    • KJT 20.3
      21 March 2024 at 7:42 pm

      Illegal.

      Unlike civilised countries. Finland Strikes.

      Though note the new right wing Government wants to place limits on the right to strike.

      Strikes, as a non violent political protest, should have remained legal in any society which pretends to be Democratic.

  21. Descendant Of Smith 21
    21 March 2024 at 7:04 pm

    I'm still waiting for Darien Fenton to give me an example of getting people to go on strike during the period of a contract.

    “I always said to workers who wanted to strike, go for it. Why do you need the law or a government to tell you it's okay?”

    Give me one example where your advice resulted in workers striking during the term of their contract. Every strike I have seen has been on expired contracts.

    In Roger Douglas's own words.

    "We now have fixed term contracts. All contracts are now for a fixed term, determined by the parties to the contract. During the term of the contract, it is illegal to have a strike or lockout against the provisions of the contract."

    https://thestandard.org.nz/political-comeback-getting-the-sequencing-right/#comment-1981613

    • KJT 21.1
      21 March 2024 at 7:48 pm

      In NZ it is illegal to strike for any other reason than the negotiation of an expired employment contract. And only the workers directly involved can strike.
      Supposedly, you can also strike for safety reasons.

      An infringement on human rights, to withdraw your labour. One of the reasons why Finland, for example, is a much happier country. Mind you, like us, for some inexplicable reason they have voted for right wing Government that wants to remove those rights.

      • Belladonna 21.1.1
        21 March 2024 at 9:05 pm

        I don't know that the right to strike is a significant factor in the happiness index of the ordinary Finn.

        I suspect that there are much more significant social, economic and cultural reasons for their high levels of happiness.

        An interesting take here on the current strike campaign against government policies in Finland.

        https://jacobin.com/2024/03/finland-orpo-right-wing-labor

        The question remains – as outlined at the end of the article – what happens if even a general strike doesn't shift the government's attitude?

        • KJT 21.1.1.1
          21 March 2024 at 9:13 pm

          significant social, economic and cultural reasons for their high levels of happiness.

          Such as Unions right to strikes, effect on equality and social welfare, access to education and opportunity?

          Noting that Parnells contractors work to rule, for an 8 hour day, would now be illegal in NZ.

          • Belladonna 21.1.1.1.1
            21 March 2024 at 9:38 pm

            The right to strike isn't a significant social, economic or cultural reason for happiness (I guess, unless you're a Union leader)

            The right to strike doesn't appear anywhere in this survey of why Finns are happy – though a lot of other factors are canvassed.

            https://finland.fi/life-society/we-asked-people-in-finland-what-makes-them-happy/

            Nor in this analysis of the comparative results of the happiness survey (why are the Finns so much happier than the Norwegians – given the same social outcomes?)

            https://finland.fi/life-society/we-asked-people-in-finland-what-makes-them-happy/

            Meanwhile, this slightly older article explores whether the Finns really are 'happy' or just have more limited horizons – which comes right back to the cultural argument (BTW, the right to strike doesn't appear here, either)

            https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/04/finland-happiness-lagom-hygge.html

          • Belladonna 21.1.1.1.2
            21 March 2024 at 9:44 pm

            Note that Parnell was not an employee – he was an independent contractor. And thus perfectly able (under the existing laws, let alone today's ones) to negotiate his hours of work, and pay.

            He didn't strike. He simply didn't accept contracts which didn't meet his requirements.

            https://nzhistory.govt.nz/people/samuel-parnell

            • KJT 21.1.1.1.2.1
              22 March 2024 at 1:44 am

              It was, effectively, a strike.

              I am fully aware that he was a contractor.

              Individually he could refuse contracts that didn't suit him.

              However!

              "Colluding" with other contractors is nowadays illegal. As is getting unconnected employees to strike in support.

              Commerce Commission – Commission issues anti-collusion reminder to businesses supplying essential services (comcom.govt.nz)

              The Commerce Act prohibits anti-competitive agreements between firms such as agreements to fix prices, allocate markets or restrict output.

              Note. "Restrict output".

              • Belladonna …
                22 March 2024 at 8:54 am

                No it was not "effectively a strike"

                In order for someone to strike they need to be employed.

                Parnell simply did not accept contracts which required more than 8 hour days.

                It's an interesting legal question over whether an independent contractor is a 'firm'. I'm inclined to think that they are not for the purposes of the Commerce Act. Which is designed to prevent chain supermarkets or petrol colluding to keep prices high (how well it works is another question).

                Nothing in the current law prevents a self-employed contractor (a builder or a plumber, for example) deciding their hours of work stop at 2pm on a Friday (for example) and going fishing for the rest of the day.

                They are either paid for the job (and it's up to them how they allocate time to it during the week) or by the hour (and, again, they can juggle their hours to suit their own circumstances).

                I do agree that there is a very strong temptation – especially when there is a lot of work around, and a desire to pay off the mortgage quickly – to pack in as many hours as possible; but there is nothing in the legislation requiring or preventing this.

                • KJT …
                  24 March 2024 at 8:50 am

                  You didn't bother reading. Or didn'understand?

                  A "strike" is a collective withdrawal of Labour.

                  If a Telecoms "contractor" individually refused to work it is a breach of contract. Illegal.

                  If they all clubbed together and refused to work asking for more pay.

                  It is not only breach of contract, but also "collusion to limit output. Both illegal. Under the commerce act and "contract" law. What Purnell and the builders in Wellington did to gain an 8 hour day, could these days wind up in court.

                  Ergo. They do not have a legal right to "withdraw their labour".

                  Same with employees. Striking, except in very limited circumstances is illegal.

                  A human right accepted in most democratic countries is illegal in NZ.

                  UN rights expert: “Fundamental right to strike must be preserved” | OHCHR

                  the right to strike is a fundamental one enshrined in international human rights and labour law, and that its protection is necessary in ensuring just, stable and democratic societies:

                  The new right leaning Finnish Government wants to head the same way. Which, like NZ, will led to increasing inequality and reduced social cohesion, with all the detrimental effects we have seen here. If it is enacted, we will again see a counter example of how effective Unions increase social wellbeing. In the decreasing Happiness.

                  • Belladonna …
                    25 March 2024 at 9:17 am

                    You clearly didn't bother reading or understand, either.

                    It is not possible to 'strike' unless you are employed.

                    Refusing to bid on a contract (because you don't like the terms or remunderation) is not a strike.

                    I'm not arguing about the rest of your points – and whether or not striking or withdrawal of labour is justified – just that Parnell did not implement a strike. He set the ground-rules for him to accept a contract. The two are very different things.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 21.1.2
        21 March 2024 at 11:32 pm

        Strike wave in Finland—a legacy of trust in transition? [13 Feb 2024]
        The strike wave in Finland is not only a symptom of this upheaval. It also demonstrates that the changes being pushed through by the government may not only erode the core content of workers’ rights but also endanger a trust-based social model.

        Endangering a trust-based social model suits some more than others, at least in the short-to-medium term, but no-one wins in the long run. I'm grateful the TEU had my back when I encountered a particularly rough 'pocket of turbulence' in the workplace.

        Attacks on trade union rights in Finland – the fight goes on
        [14 March 2024]
        Strikes and protests have resumed in Finland this week as Finnish unions across the spectrum keep up the pressure on the Orpo government to withdraw its highly controversial proposals to liberalise the labour market. The main aims of the reform are to decentralise collective bargaining, weaken the right to strike and allow more precarious employment.

        https://www.sak.fi/en/serious-grounds

  22. weka 22
    21 March 2024 at 9:45 pm

    SPC, I've dumped the whole thread in Trash because I don't have time for this. Again, if you had done these two things with your first comment, there wouldn't have been a problem (assuming you weren't doxxing)

    1. provide links to back up what you were saying
    2. explained what you were meaning.

    However, on the face of it, I've not seen evidence that demonstrates the two commenters are the same. You are guessing. I don't know why, but just leave it alone now please.

    • weka 22.1
      21 March 2024 at 9:48 pm

      also, I don't read every comment on this site. In future, link to every comment you are referring to. Onus is on you do the work. I'm trying to finish a post, you know, the reason the site exists.

    • SPC 22.2
      21 March 2024 at 9:51 pm

      No worries.

      Normally you ask people to change names, if they are using the name of an existing commentator. Did this not happen because the name Rose, went to Christine Rose and then to Compass Rose and then back to Rose?

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