Open mike 21/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 21st, 2019 - 158 comments
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158 comments on “Open mike 21/08/2019 ”

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  1. A 1
    21 August 2019 at 7:06 am

    ANZ in the news again…this time over missing loan documents.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115108932/crossan-anz-needs-to-front-to-prove-no-conflict-of-interest

    “I’ve simply had no response from ANZ to my reasonable requests for information about the loan and its terms.

    “To be clear: in no way do I dispute the loan or my responsibility to pay off my share of the debt as one of four personal guarantors for the facility.

    “What’s perhaps most alarming is the revelation that ANZ has been unable to locate a signed copy of the original facility to NZ Girl in its files. To my mind, that credit contract is vital to outline the terms that were agreed to by NZ Girl at the origin of the loan, and the basis of which any fees and penalties are charged. I’m deeply concerned that as a customer of ANZ, I am experiencing such difficulty, or indeed a stone wall of silence, from my bank when I have asked for reasonable information to determine what I owe. I’ve had to employ a lawyer to help me navigate this, at significant personal cost.”

    TSB is a good bank. I bet they would have documentation.

    • dv 1.1
      21 August 2019 at 8:23 am

      This was telling too

      “Crossan said her former husband, Grant Nicholls, who is now part of the ANZ executive team, had also offered a personal guarantee, along with two other people. He held a similar shareholding in the business.

      as well as a 26% interest!!!!

    • mpledger 1.2
      21 August 2019 at 9:19 am

      I'm surprised they said they could throw away documents after seven years. I would have thought it was 7 years after completion of the contract, not seven years from the time the contract was started.

      • McFlock 1.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 1:56 pm

        … doesn't that mean that if someone took out a 20 year mortgage, there might be no evidence that they should even be making any payments?

    • infused 1.3
      21 August 2019 at 1:17 pm

      TSB? Fuck off. TSB fucked *everything* up we had with them.

      They can't even email statements, they have to print them off and scan them. And before this, you had to go into a branch to get them as they refused to do it.

      Getting out of TSB was one of the best things I ever did.

    • cleangreen 1.4
      21 August 2019 at 1:30 pm

      Yes agreed TSB is the best bank in NZ today.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5
      21 August 2019 at 5:50 pm

      Transferring my day-to-day and investment banking to TSB ~17 years ago worked out well for me – never regretted moving to this 100% NZ-owned bank.

  2. Jenny - How to Get there? 2
    21 August 2019 at 7:12 am

    Syria most dangerous place in the world for journalists

    By Mark DoyleBBC World Affairs Correspondent

    • 20 August 2014

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28865514

    Mike McRoberts will return to Syria, as he calls for more NZ Government aid

    Glenn McConnell05:00, Aug 18 2019

    …….The journalist has travelled to Syria and its neighbouring countries, and was last there in 2017 and says he saw destruction at a level he'd never witnessed before.

    McRoberts is no stranger to carnage. He was known as New Zealand's "war correspondent", having completed assignments in Gaza, Afghanistan and Iraq. He's also reported on the aftermath of natural disasters, such as the 2011 Japan tsunami and earthquakes in Haiti and Christchurch.

    But the destruction in Syria is a new level of horrible, and he's worried New Zealanders don't comprehend how bad it is.

    "It's mind blowing," he says. "Entire cities have been destroyed, in a way I've never seen before. The number of places I've been, I've never before seen kilometre after kilometre of destruction. All the homes, the entire town, destroyed."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/115079254/mike-mcroberts-will-return-to-syria-as-he-calls-for-more-nz-government-aid

    Syria most dangerous place in the world for journalists

    By Mark DoyleBBC World Affairs Correspondent

    I see that Mike McRoberts will be reporting from Idlib.

    Maybe if he gets the chance, and is not killed, Mike McRoberts could visit the town of Saraqib,

    If any of them are still alive, he could interview Osama al-Hossein, or Ibrahim Bareesh, or a lawyer named Muthanna al-Muhammad, or even the local singer Ahmed al-Tellawi, or Manhal Bareesh, or the peace activist Iyad Jarrod, or Mousab al-Azzo the soccer coach.

    Maybe Mike McRobers might be able to get hold of local journalist journalist Samar Yazbek and ask her for her account of the Syrian conflict.

    Syria’s Last Bastion of Freedom

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/10/syrias-last-bastion-of-freedom

    • Brigid 2.1
      21 August 2019 at 4:18 pm

      Your jihadi friends have control of Saraqib Jenny. You really have no shame. You have never condemned these brutal murderers but whitter on about the Syrian Government. I can only conclude that you would be quite happy to have ISIS, Al queda et al overun Syria and turn it into a bastion of Sharia Law carrying out it's public floggings and beheadings.

      What the hell is wrong with you?

      https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/12/whitewash-the-bastion-of-freedom-is-an-al-qaeda-infested-town.html

      "From the early start of the war on Syria, Saraqib was one of the centers of jihadi terrorist activities. In March/April 2011 it was one of the first towns that saw violent attacks on government forces and institutions. In December 2011 the notorious terrorist group Ahrar al-Sham, headed by the long time al-Qaeda member Abu Khalid al-Suri, was founded there. In 2014 the BBC reported how al-Qaeda/Nusra/HTS ruled the town:

      Abu-Qedama, al-Qaida's envoy in Saraqib, North-Eastern Syria, is Jordanian. His task is to ensure that Sharia Law is enforced.

      This BBC Arabic film follows him and his fellow Islamists in Saraqib, showing how they are taking control of the city. The film-makers get inside the courts and reveal how Sharia Law is applied. We see the judge at work in the Court and issuing his judgment on the public square. For the first time, we see a public flogging before a large crowd of people, as a deterrent to others.

      At some point the locals in Saraqib may have hold some sham elections. But that does not change the fact that their town was and is solidly controlled by an internationally banned terrorist group. Saraqib is only a 'bastion of freedom' when one ignores everything that happened and still happens there.

      This brings up a serious question. How did the author of the New Yorker piece, Anand Gopal, manage to travel through Nusra/HTS/al-Qaeda controlled Idleb governorate, visited the jihadi infested town, and avoided to be thrown into the "notorious al-Iqab Prison in Saraqib area"?"

      Oh and Osama al-Hossein, Muslim Brotherhood 'activist' has fled to Turkey. Please do keep up.

    • Lisa 2.2
      21 August 2019 at 5:52 pm

      Wow, that is either a very ignorant view or you are friends with headchoppers of Idlib. Mr McRoberts needs to use his intelligence and visit Damascus before venturing off to the frontlines of Idlib. Maybe you actually believe the white helmet and al Qaeda propaganda, if so you are very mistaken in your judgment. You have no reason to trust me but I have done a great deal of independent and indepth research as well as visited the Middle East.

      • Jenny - How to Get there? 2.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 9:01 pm

        To date The Standard has not allowed a single post that strays from the pro-regime narrative.

        Will we see the Standard authors willfully ignore McRoberts commentary?

        Will The Standard authors choose instead to get their views shaped by Pepe Escobar of RT and notorious batshit crazy conspiracy website Globalresearch.

        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

        What it thinks it is [edit]

        “”In an era of media disinformation, our focus has essentially been to center on the "unspoken truth".

        —True only if "unspoken" means "so embarassingly false that nobody else will say it"[2]

        Pepe Escobar Author Globalresearch

        https://www.globalresearch.ca/author/pepe-escobar

        [As a long-time commenter here, you should be familiar with the https://thestandard.org.nz/about/ and the https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/.

        You should know that Authors write in their own spare time for free about topics they want to write about (https://thestandard.org.nz/about/#you_must).

        You should know that attributing ulterior motives to the site, as if it has a mind of its own, or to its Authors is a bannable offense (https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/#banning).

        You should know that telling Authors what to write or not write about, what views to express of not express and how is a bannable offense too.

        Attacking the site for things that may never even happen is stupid behaviour and amounts to telling us what we can and cannot write about.

        Stomping and ranting over everything and anything to do with Syria makes it impossible to have a rational discussion on this.

        These are just the main offenses – there are too many minor ones to list here that have been wasting Moderator time.

        I have checked your history here and you have been warned and banned many times before for the same offenses.

        I was tossing between a permanent ban and a short educational ban. The former one may be too harsh and the latter one obviously won’t work. Therefore, I decided to hand you medium-long ban as a warning to you and others and to give us all a break from your recidivist behaviour.

        Banned for three months – Incognito]

  3. phillip ure 3
    21 August 2019 at 7:16 am

    'business insider' has done a what if..?

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/switch-from-meat-to-meatless-diet-environmental-benefits-2019-8

    (excerpt..)

    Impossible Foods, a leading producer of plant-based "meat-like" patties, has launched its Impossible Burger 2.0 in more than 7,000 restaurants worldwide. The product will be sold in all Burger King locations across the US (not to mention your local grocery store) by September.

    Beyond Meat, another meat-free burger company, saw similar success: The company netted $40.2 million during its first quarter as a public company (between January and April), a 215% jump from the same period in 2018.

    Global consultancy firm AT Kearney projects that by 2040, 60% of the "meat" products humans consume will either be plant-based replacements or lab-grown meats.'

    • Robert Guyton 3.1
      21 August 2019 at 7:57 am

      All meat products are plant-based smiley

      • phillip ure 3.1.1
        21 August 2019 at 7:59 am

        there is just no need for the middle-man..

        • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 8:10 am

          In the natural world, herbivores eat plant-parts and omnivores/carnivores eat herbivore-parts, along with selected plant-parts. It's for reasons other than "natural" that some present-day humans choose not to eat herbivore-parts.

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 8:38 am

            Elegantly stated, thank you – no need for further comment from me now.

          • weka 3.1.1.1.2
            21 August 2019 at 9:47 am

            Nice one Robert.

            • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.2.1
              21 August 2019 at 10:24 am

              I didn't mean it to be a conversation stopper, more a basis on which to build a rational discussion. Without the heat, a measured debate on diet would be enjoyable and very interesting, in my view.

              • solkta …
                21 August 2019 at 10:35 am

                Yeh there are lots of things that might be 'natural' that get overridden at a cultural level. Rape is probably natural but we no do that.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  21 August 2019 at 10:37 am

                  Yes, culture's the issue. Rape's a plant, btw; no need to confuse the issue, solkta; in fact, let's leave that out of any discussion on dietsmiley

              • weka …
                21 August 2019 at 10:44 am

                I completely agree Robert. I will try and find a different way to engage when I start seeing red over the climate change aspect.

            • phillip ure 3.1.1.1.2.2
              21 August 2019 at 10:26 am

              @ pm + weka..

              are you both sure you know what robert actually said..?

              • Robert Guyton …
                21 August 2019 at 10:29 am

                Is anyone?

                • marty mars …
                  21 August 2019 at 10:39 am

                  I thought it was that it is natural to eat. The choice of what to eat is not related to the word 'natural', it is a choice for (most) humans. I wish more people would accept their choice and stop trying to justify it – the climate disaster we are facing isn't a practice run!

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    21 August 2019 at 11:20 am

                    "Choice", marty mars?

                    Now there's a debatable idea; choosing; do television-watching children choose to eat the sugar-infused foods they see advertised on their beloved goggle-box, or is that choice made for them by the cunning advertisers?

                    • marty mars …
                      21 August 2019 at 11:40 am

                      yeah nah – the choice to eat industrialised farmed flesh (and accept that subsequent contribution to our climate emergency) or veges and grains and fruits. Sure some may like ‘happy meat’ – good on them. I'd like people to raise their pigs and sheep and then kill and gut them, chop them up, put them in the freezer and chomp away – but easier to just buy the plastic wrapped stuff I spose.

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 11:47 am

                      The main impediment to people eating local meat is food safety laws that prohibits us from buying direct from farmers and small growers. That's not too hard a fix technically, but the people in government are not on board yet with the need.

                      This is one reason why I push back hard on the veganism will save us from climate change idea. Instead of making it easier for people to eat the least impactful foods (whether that be veg, meat, dairy, nuts), people are being actively encouraged and pressured to eat industrial soy that still has a large carbon footprint and a terrible eco footprint.

                      I'll never be in a position to raise my own meat, but I'm not in a position to grow my own veges either, so I tend to focus on the systems and how they can be changed.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 11:51 am

                      So then there're children in families where an omnivorous diet is the norm, who find choosing not to eat farmed-animal meat very difficult, if not impossible. As well, there are those children who haven't given a thought to eating differently from their family and who, as adults, choose to continue, not having had to address the issue at any point. Demanding that they do is…interesting and needing explanation. It's a complex question, choosing what and what not to eat. The sugar story is similar.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 11:59 am

                      "This is one reason why I push back hard on the veganism will save us from climate change idea."

                      Yes. Any single-issue campaign that claims "save us from climate-change/annihilation" falls over immediately, imo; coal, oil, meat, air-travel, stock-farming, because it's clear immediate and total change as the result of one action cannot happen, given our civilised state. I'm convinced though, that there is a pathway aside from wrack & ruin and am always hopeful that a discussion here will ignite the lamp that guides that path smiley

                    • marty mars …
                      21 August 2019 at 12:11 pm

                      @ weka yep I'm a locavore.

                      "This is one reason why I push back hard on the veganism will save us from climate change idea. Instead of making it easier for people to eat the least impactful foods "

                      Not sure why both ideas can't be entertained – they aren't mutually exclusive.

                      @Robert – good you're thinking of the children.

                      It's not a single issue – it is among a range of issues to try to reduce the misery just around the corner. It is evidence based like the rest of them. This anti reduce meat consumption (for those that make that argument – not you R ok) is really another climate denial argument imo.

                      EXTINCTION rebellion have it framed correctly

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 12:29 pm

                      "Not sure why both ideas can't be entertained – they aren't mutually exclusive."

                      I don't know why either, but these are my guesses. I see a lot of resistance from the vegan movement and fundamentalist vegans to instead of telling people to eat vegan, telling people to eat vegan or omni but either way to eat from relocalised food systems where they can.

                      I understand this to be because not eating animals is paramount, and it's better to prioritise that than it is to let people eat local, happy meat or dairy or eggs if that is a better choice in climate terms. That ideology is a problem where it blocks locavorism, and imo this is what is happening (it's being blocked).

                      The vegan movement isn't championing relocalising food, but instead is pushing industrial vegan vs industrial meat/dairy. I see a kind of blindness here, and I feel an immense frustration at the amount of time spent addressing the 'go vegan and save us from climate change' (which is a nonsense, because they're really saying eat industrial soy instead of CAFO meat/dairy), and the conversation getting stuck there instead of moving on to the systems that might give all of live a chance.

                      Reducing global GHG emissions by x % won't save us. We have to move to zero-ish carbon at the same time as doing all the natural sequestration processes to mitigate, not to buy more carbon usage.

                      In all that is the issue of the industrialised wealthy nations eating way more than their fare share, so of course people that eat large amounts of meat and dairy need to rethink that. But asking people to reduce the amount of meat/dairy is very different than asking them to be vegan.

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 12:35 pm

                      "This anti reduce meat consumption (for those that make that argument – not you R ok) is really another climate denial argument imo."

                      When I was vegetarian in the 80s, the common theme amongst vegetarians was that NZers ate too much protein. This was probably true for a good number of people, but for vegetarians who were eating largely plant based diets it was dangerous, because we ended up protein deficient.

                      Telling people to reduce meat only works for people that are eating a lot. No way in hell am I going to tell poor people who don't have enough nutrients in their diet and subsist on white carbs that they should eat less meat and dairy. Likewise chronically ill people who don't have the health resources to manage a vegetarian diet.

                      So when people say eat less meat/dairy to save the planet, because the Guardian is telling them that *globally* humans are eating too much, of course I am going to say hang on, there is a real problem with this approach and messaging.

                    • marty mars …
                      21 August 2019 at 12:47 pm

                      @ weka I think you have a blind spot in relation to vegans and that stuff therefore this is my last comment to you on it (today that is 🙂 )

                      there was no protein crisis afaik

                      Maybe we can get the wealthy middle class western countries and citizens to reduce their meat intake first and then start on the poor people.

                      There are a small number of vegans pushing their position yet somehow that means they want global soy (industrial vegan) instead of rain forests – come on.

                      Often people don't like the message when they don't agree with it. Bit all or nothing for me.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:03 pm

                      Marty – "Extinction rebellion", are they rebelling to prevent the extinction of rhino, dolphin, butterfly, bee, etc, or are they referring to the extinction of humans, do you know?

                      I don't.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:07 pm

                      I reckon, also, that talking to individuals, as we do here on TS, is very different to talking to corporations. It's fair to demand that soul-less, heart-less, socio/psychopathic corporate pretend-bodies, are addressed in absolute terms, but not individuals, imo. People are easily hurt and almost always compromised, so absolute claims and demands just harm, not help. Sometimes we mix the two without realising it.

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:30 pm

                      "@ weka I think you have a blind spot in relation to vegans and that stuff therefore this is my last comment to you on it (today that is )"

                      People can and do think whatever they want, but in a political forum in the absence of explaining their thinking it doesn't really mean much. eg I have no idea what my blind spot might be. What I'm getting is there is something you don't like about my argument, and so you will stop talking to me today. All good. I hope next time you can say more.

                      "there was no protein crisis afaik"

                      No idea what that means.

                      "Maybe we can get the wealthy middle class western countries and citizens to reduce their meat intake first and then start on the poor people."

                      Sure, those wealthy people that are eating a lot of meat/dairy. Those that aren't need a different message.

                      "There are a small number of vegans pushing their position yet somehow that means they want global soy (industrial vegan) instead of rain forests – come on."

                      The vegan movement is large, well funded, and being adopted by people in positions of power.

                      I didn't make the comparison with rain forests, so please don't put words into my argument. I suspect you are still largely missing what I am arguing for, but to be clear, I don't support NZers to fell our rain forests to grow meat or legumes.

                      "Often people don't like the message when they don't agree with it. Bit all or nothing for me."

                      If you can't see the nuances in my arguments (and there are plenty) I think that's for you to sort out

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:34 pm

                      ER's main demands are around GHGs and preventing mass species extinction so I think it's reasonable to assume the extinction rebellion applies to all of life. It’s one of the things that separates them out from some other climate activists, they saw the need to do both together.

                    • marty mars …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:43 pm

                      @ Robert yes we are individuals and that is where we must start imo. Once again, why people get so defensive I'll never know – just do what you can and what you want, with knowledge – and that's the same for all eaters of food. ffs I've had enough of this bullshit – argue with yourselves on this 'political forum'.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 1:43 pm

                      Mmmm…I appreciate your view, weka. I'm not sure though; the 6th Great Extinction Event was, I thought, attributed to more prosaic habitat destruction by humans; city-building, forest-felling, over-fishing, pesticide-use etc. I'd always thought that was the background to Extinction Rebellion. But you may be right, in which case, I'm somewhat disappointed.

                    • phillip ure …
                      21 August 2019 at 4:13 pm

                      @ weka..re soy..

                      most of the soy grown is to feed animals..

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 4:16 pm

                      "most of the soy grown is to feed animals.."

                      Which is largely unnecessary. Not sure what your point it phil.

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 4:18 pm

                      Are we talking at cross-purposes there Robert? Afaik ER want to address all the things you name, and see humans as the progenitor of mass extinction. Hence the demand to protect biodiversity. I took that to mean by humans changing their errant ways.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 4:26 pm

                      I see you are correct, weka. Originally, I thought the "E" in ER referred to other-than-human living things.

                    • weka []
                      21 August 2019 at 4:49 pm

                      Are you still disappointed?

                    • phillip ure …
                      21 August 2019 at 5:14 pm

                      @ weka..

                      u said: 'which is a nonsense, because they're really saying eat industrial soy instead of CAFO meat/dairy)'..

                      i was replying to that..

                      i thought it was/is relevant to the/any discussion on soy..

                    • weka []
                      21 August 2019 at 5:50 pm

                      right. So getting humans to eat industrial soy instead of eating cows that industrial soy looks like a good thing ecologically and re CC, but only in a lesser evil way. Better to get humans to eat local (legumes, veges, animals, nuts) and regeneratively, and avoid the massive issues associated with all industrial farming.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      21 August 2019 at 5:28 pm

                      Yes. I'd been so pleased that a global movement to protect all non-human life had come into being; learning that there was human self-interest involved is a bit disappointing.

                      How does one do a wan-smiley-face emoticon?

                    • weka …
                      21 August 2019 at 5:45 pm

                      🙁

                      I took it as being all of life (including humans). I don't see us as outside of nature, so can't imagine protecting biodiversity in ways that don't also protect us. There are compelling reasons to protect humans too eg so we deal with the nuclear and other high pollution issues.

                    • weka []
                      21 August 2019 at 5:47 pm

                      that’s : -( without the gaps. I use :-/ a bit.

                    • Pat …
                      21 August 2019 at 6:23 pm

                      Interesting positioning but on this occasion I suspect you have been trumped by the greywarshark….

                      20 August 2019 at 9:36 pm

              • greywarshark …
                21 August 2019 at 10:40 am

                solkta Now you produce another conversation stopper.

                There is something wrong with the heads of a number of you. Can you concentrate on other matters when people want to discuss them. It is a virtual OCD to be in a sex default position when there are so many human bad behaviour traits.

        • Dukeofurl 3.1.1.2
          21 August 2019 at 3:16 pm

          "there is just no need for the middle-man.."

          hahaha . You mean the factory making the protein isnt a middle man ? It may say 'plant based' but the reality is some sort of by product of an industrial process.

          Plants themselves are far better than 'plant based' falsehood

    • weka 3.2
      21 August 2019 at 9:52 am

      Global consultancy firm AT Kearney projects that by 2040, 60% of the "meat" products humans consume will either be plant-based replacements or lab-grown meats.'

      By pillaging the world's diminishing resources. Show us the ecological footprint, or it's all just BAU.

      Below is the ingredients list, have a think about where those ingredients come from, how they're grown and processed, how far they travel to get to the plate, what extractive and polluting industry (incl fossil fuels) is needed in that whole process.

      Then stop and think about how this might not be a good solution to climate change, and why relocalising food supplies might be.

      • Water
      • Soy-protein concentrate
      • Coconut oil
      • Sunflower oil
      • Natural flavours.

      Impossible “meat” also contains 2% or less of:

      • Potato protein
      • Methylcellulose
      • Yeast extract
      • Cultured dextrose
      • Food starch, modified
      • Soy leghemoglobin
      • Salt
      • Soy-protein isolate
      • Mixed tocopherols (vitamin E)
      • Zinc gluconate
      • Thiamine hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)
      • Sodium ascorbate (vitamin C)
      • Niacin
      • Pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6)
      • Riboflavin (vitamin B2)
      • Vitamin B12
      • phillip ure 3.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 10:30 am

        @ weka…

        um..!..if you actually read the link – the/your footprint question is answered there..and as stated there – the difference is significant..

        (and lotsa good stuff in that recipie…eh..?..all those vitamins/niacin/oils etc…

        gotta be good for ya..!..)

        • weka 3.2.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 10:57 am

          It doesn't work.

          The first part of the article is based on US populations, so very different than what people in the NZ or even somewhere like the UK are eating. It's comparing soy with meat and dairy, but that doesn't take into account things like the evolutionary human need for fats. It looks at EFAs but doesn't address two issues: one is that CAFO meats have a munted EFA ratio to start with, and two, EFAs from plants are harder for humans to utilise in their bodies.

          I doubt that the GHG emission figures are true, because of what is being chosen to be counted (please, someone do the mahi to correct me), but it doesn't address the ecological footprint.

          But the second part of the article is looking at fake meat, not in the context of the research in the first part of the article. The research looked at soy, green peppers, squash, buckwheat, and asparagus, not that list of ingredients above.

          I could go on, lots of ways to critique this, but for me it's not a vegan vs omnivore debate, it's an industrial monsanto model of eating vs relocalising food, and how that matters in terms of climate mitigation.

      • Sacha 3.2.2
        21 August 2019 at 10:42 am

        Additive-laden foods designed to sit on shelves for days or weeks will always suffer by comparison with whole foods in climate terms. Be great if our food system incentivised local whole products.

        • weka 3.2.2.1
          21 August 2019 at 10:45 am

          It would. And people could still choose, by and large, what kind of diet to eat within that. For now at least.

          • Sacha 3.2.2.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 10:54 am

            Wonder if clarifying impacts/options within whole foods could sidestep the processed food industry resisting even the most basic labelling.

            • weka 3.2.2.1.1.1
              21 August 2019 at 11:02 am

              how do you mean?

              • Sacha …
                21 August 2019 at 11:26 am

                If whole foods had good information for purchasers, including the climate impacts. Local venison, out-of-season veges, imported lentils, etc.

                Processed purveyors might not resist us doing that as much and I'm tired of their interests taking precedent.

                • weka …
                  21 August 2019 at 11:41 am

                  All fresh fruit and veg in the supermarket have to have ecofootprint, GHG footprint, country of origin, how they were grown (organic/conventional etc), that kind of thing? That would be a total game changer.

                  I'm tired of their interests taking precedent too, and I suspect there would be a lot of resistance. What happened to the Greens' country of origin labelling thing?

      • bwaghorn 3.2.3
        21 August 2019 at 12:28 pm

        Once frankin foods get a market share (and they will ) it is going to become fertile ground for the big companies to hollow out any nutritional goodness in pursuit low cost high profit garbage.

        • weka 3.2.3.1
          21 August 2019 at 12:43 pm

          Yep. Looking at the list in that burger, why the need to add in all those vitamins? And how where they produced? Some people think that our bodies are machines and we can just add this component and that component and still function well. That one will come back and bite us.

          • Sabine 3.2.3.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 12:49 pm

            i am more worried about the waste produced by this stuff.

            We have become a seriously ill society. We want to feel good at all cost. We want to elevate some life more important as other life and often time that comes with the 'cute' label attached. We don't want to pay the honest price of everything, cause that would cut into the pursuit of 'lifestyle' and by gosh and golly we are owed a lifestyle. We want to continue to drive our cars, our boats, our bikes, heat in winter to 30 and cool in summer to 22, we want our booze and our frocks and our frid/sat entertainment and we want it cheap. And the rubbish of all that we consume is for another generation to care of. But at least we could pretend we are still eating meat. Right?

            give me a rat burger/possum burger/ stoat burger/rabbit burger any day of the week before i would buy and eat that rubbish.

            • weka 3.2.3.1.1.1
              21 August 2019 at 1:24 pm

              all of this ^

            • Robert Guyton 3.2.3.1.1.2
              21 August 2019 at 1:25 pm

              Please eat weeds.
              Chickweed
              Chickory
              Burdock
              Dandelion
              Fat hen
              Fennel
              Plantain
              Wild onion
              and so on, and so on.
              You’ll be the healthier for it.

            • phillip ure 3.2.3.1.1.3
              21 August 2019 at 4:33 pm

              @ sabine..

              the predictions are that the burger/pizza etc chains will be the first to take it up in a big way..

              in part 'cos it will be much cheaper than animal-based meat..

              they will be able to offer plant-based kobe-beef burgers..any meat type at all..indistinguishable from the animal-based product..

              and they will be able to market it as eco-meat..cruelty-free-meat..

              these are powerful advertising messages..

              and of course in the supermarkets these products will be much cheaper than the animal-based – this is a price-war the animal product will lose..

              so it will be difficult to avoid – and what seems now unthinkable to many..will soon enough become the norm..

    • OnceWasTim 3.3
      21 August 2019 at 1:11 pm



      (and Oim peshnut about it too)

    • Dukeofurl 3.4
      21 August 2019 at 3:10 pm

      Impossible Burger

      "enjoy the "Impossible Whopper." It has no meat and a mere 1080 mg. of sodium

      Thats a sign no flavour so fill with salt ( remember to double the sodium to get NaCl so thats 2 g)

      1500mg is really the most an adult should consume

  4. A 4
    21 August 2019 at 7:21 am

    Massey University after a sexual assault complaint:

    During a meeting with Fuller, Marie says he expressed sympathy but told her quitting her PhD might be the best option

    What year is this?!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115029105/massey-university-accused-of-mishandling-allegations-of-a-violent-sexual-assault

    • greywarshark 4.1
      21 August 2019 at 11:00 am

      That can't have been Marie Curie as she has been dead for some time! But the male attitudes of primacy that she encountered (but always overcame) still continue their repeat – like a belch or fart.

      This was interesting – an honest, objective appraisal by Pierre Curie on why it was hard for him to fine a life companion and wife:

      "Women, much more than men, love life for life’s sake. Women of genius are rare. And when, pushed by some mystic love, we wish to enter into a life opposed to nature, when we give all our thoughts to some work which removes us from those immediately about us, it is with women that we have to struggle, and the struggle is nearly always an unequal one. For in the name of life and of nature they seek to lead us back." http://womenineuropeanhistory.org/index.php?title=Marie_Curie

      Though Marie changed the mould still the old attitude apparently prevails.

  5. Sanctuary 5
    21 August 2019 at 7:35 am

    Looks like a split at the top in the National party camp over the new Topham Guerin approach, David Farrar is publically disagreeing with Simon Bridges over his opposition to the establishment of a Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO).

    Extraordinary thing to do, given how hard Simon is running with this line.

    • Sacha 5.1
      21 August 2019 at 7:47 am

      I guess more spend on TG might mean less on Curia?

    • Robert Guyton 5.2
      21 August 2019 at 8:03 am

      "National are putting themselves right next to the anti-vax clowns with this kind of caper. Time to grow up and fight elections on policy rather than Steven Joyce's cheap sloganeering. "

      Comment below the article on Stuff.

      • Stuart Munro. 5.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 11:59 am

        While that may be true in terms of NZ democracy, there is no future for National if they fight elections on a rational basis. They need to lie, to smear, to accuse and to distract like an abusive partner, because at the end of the day they are corrupt and the policies they will actually implement are either ineffectual or disastrous.

        Simon is doing the smart thing for National – but not the smart thing for New Zealand, which would be infinitely better off without them.

    • Puckish Rogue 5.3
      21 August 2019 at 8:06 am

      PBO sounds like a good idea as long as its implemented correctly, Bridges is wrong about this

      • Robert Guyton 5.3.1
        21 August 2019 at 8:11 am

        Just add it to his growing list.

      • Jimmy 5.3.2
        21 August 2019 at 10:44 am

        Maybe hard to appoint people that everyone sees as independent though. They could appoint both Michael Cullen and Steven Joyce…that would be interesting.

    • ianmac 5.4
      21 August 2019 at 9:50 am

      "Bridges digs himself deeper over policy costing plans." by Sam Sachdeva on Newsroom.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/08/21/765029/bridges-digs-himself-deeper-over-policy-costing-plans

      Again Bridges shouting National Radio this morning was incoherent. Paranoia creeping in? A trick to trap the Opposition?

      29 of the 36 OECD countries having an independent fiscal institution of some type.

  6. Robert Guyton 6
    21 August 2019 at 7:55 am

    Chris Trotter's piece on Fascists (sidebar) is fascinating! I was immediately reminded of Incognito's suggestion of the need for a Philosopher-king to guide us all through the coming troubles with the weather smiley

    “[R]ealising the present serious National emergency, and the necessity for all good citizens to subordinate private and political interests and to make any necessary personal sacrifice for the sake of the country, [I] agree to become a member of the New Zealand Legion and to further loyally, by every means in my power, by vote, example and personal influence, the objects of the Legion."

    "Politics, however, was what ultimately killed the Legion. Its leaders and members simply couldn’t agree on what it was, exactly, that patriotic New Zealanders needed to do. Unlike a genuine fascist movement, it lacked a charismatic leader capable of preventing such crippling internal debates by reserving all policy-making powers to himself."

    (My bold).

    • Pat 6.1
      21 August 2019 at 10:10 am

      It is a good piece though its central theme is obvious upon reflection…..the history connecting the Legion with the National Party was a revelation for me.

    • Poission 6.2
      21 August 2019 at 10:45 am

      Was that a response though?.New Zealand being a communist country at the time,as George Bernard Shaw related in his famous radio broadcast to NZ /Aus.(4 million listeners)

      "You are to some extent, thanks to your admirable communist institutions, now actually leading the world's institutions. You are second only to Russia, and there is a curious joke about it that Russia, partly by following New Zealand's example, has got a good lead, the Russians are very proud of their Communism. They know they are Communists and are proud of it…while New Zealand, which leads the world in communism, does not know it is Communist. It naturally thinks Communism is a terrible thing. Let me ask you to put that idea out of your heads… I am a Communist, I studied Karl Marx four years before Lenin did, and you see that I am a very sensible and well-meaning person."

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/106049955/literary-goliath-was-ahead-of-his-time

      • Pat 6.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 11:07 am

        lol…difficult (with any credibility) to describe NZ as a communist country at any time with the proportion of assets held in private ownership

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.2
        21 August 2019 at 11:15 am

        Well, George said we were…

        • phillip ure 6.2.2.1
          21 August 2019 at 11:44 am

          i think he was talking about our social polices – at the time…

          another quote of his i luv from his visit was when he was asked if nz should focus on tourism for our future –

          his long answer was that we are uniquely placed to become self-sufficient..

          his short answer was: 'why..?..do you want to become a nation of servants..?'

          (and so it came to pass…)

        • Pat 6.2.2.2
          21 August 2019 at 11:47 am

          and Ive spent a month in France…

  7. phillip ure 7
    21 August 2019 at 8:05 am

    this popped up on my twitter-feed – it's a great read..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/20/magazine/neil-young-streaming-music.html

    (i didn't know that neil young and joni mitchell both had polio as children – and at the same time…)

  8. Nick 8
    21 August 2019 at 8:58 am

    Lots of John Tamihere for AKL mayor billboards around. 1/2 red and 1/2 blue. Does this mean that he is pro national and pro Labour or what?

  9. Sam C 9
    21 August 2019 at 10:13 am

    So the word around Wellington is that Helen O'Sullivan finishes up as Head of KiwiBuild at the end of August. She only started the role in February!

    What has happened to the re-set? This is turning into an unmitigated shambles. Twyford's arrogance is really starting to shine through.

      • Sam C 9.1.1
        21 August 2019 at 10:24 am

        Apologies. You are of course correct.

        So many people circulating through this department that it is really difficult to keep up. I wonder how long Megan Woods will be in the chair.

        • Incognito 9.1.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 10:28 am

          Do you think she’ll do a good job? Have you seen early signs of improvement? Is she on side with industry players?

          • Sam C 9.1.1.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 11:20 am

            Hard to say. Dr Woods has been completely invisible where KiwiBuild is concerned. The Property Institute even had to cancel a webinar that she’d agreed to present at on the basis that she was a no-show, so that would be a NO in relation to being on side with industry players.

    • Robert Guyton 9.2
      21 August 2019 at 10:28 am

      Bryan Gould on The importance of kindness.

      A very good and encouraging read. You'd benefit from it, Sam C.

      http://www.bryangould.com/the-importance-of-kindness/

      • Sam C 9.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 11:18 am

        Nice article, Robert.

        I generally think that the importance of accountability is also key for Ministerial positions where responsibility for flagship Government policy lies.

        I don't believe that kindness trumps accountability, which is why the current Government is falling so far short of the electorate's expectations.

        • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 11:22 am

          Sticking to it, Sam C! Good man! Fight the good Blue fight!

          • Sam C 9.2.1.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 11:24 am

            If expecting Ministers to remain accountable for the election promises they made is "fighting the good Blue fight", then I'm certainly guilty.

            • phillip ure 9.2.1.1.1.1
              21 August 2019 at 11:48 am

              how do you feel about john key promising not to raise g.s.t..?..and not to raise any other taxes..?

              whereas the reality was – that he lied thru his teeth…

              • Sam C …
                21 August 2019 at 11:54 am

                what about… what about… whereas… what about… KiwiBuild???!

                • Stuart Munro. …
                  21 August 2019 at 12:06 pm

                  In the interests of even-handedness, Sam, where are you on this:

                  "Mr Key signalled a National-led government would improve housing affordability by embarking on a programme of personal tax cuts, changing the building regulatory regime, keeping interest rates lower, reforming development rules to free up land, and allowing state house dwellers to buy their homes."

                  https://otago.nzpif.org.nz/news/view/53030

                  It seems National made big promises on housing that didn't come to fruition also. A critique of kiwibuild is qualified by this.

                  • greywarshark …
                    21 August 2019 at 1:47 pm

                    A three-letter word is proving sensitive today. That is 'out' when talking about cities and more building.

                    The government release from Twyford and Parker is headed: 'https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/helping-our-cities-grow-and-out'
                    Helping our cities grow up and out
                    “We need a new approach to planning that allows our cities to grow up, especially in city centres and around transport connections. We also have to allow cities to expand in a way that protects our special heritage areas, the natural environment and highly productive land.

                    “When overly restrictive planning creates an artificial scarcity of land, or floor space in the case of density limits, you simply drive up the price of housing and deny people housing options.

                    (This sounded like a repeat of the property speculators mantra to me.)
                    Links on google keywords:phil twyford on housing and land

                    Scoop follows the same heading: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1908/S00209/helping-our-cities-grow-up-and-out.htm

                    TVNZ: New urban growth plan touted as game changer that will fix NZ's 'dysfunctional' housing market

                    The NZ Herald phrases it more carefully:
                    The Government wants councils to focus on building up, not out, to fix the housing crisis
                    .

                    https://www.interest.co.nz/property/101304/government-proposes-new-policies-specifically-require-local-councils-leapfrog-nimbys
                    The Government wants to direct local councils to prioritise building up, rather than out through a new National Policy Statement (NPS) on Urban Development.

                    It has released a document for consultation that proposes what the new NPS, set to replace the existing 2016 one, should look like.

                    The Ministry for the Environment (MfE) and Ministry of Housing and Urban Development (MHUD) suggest the NPS includes new policies to specifically direct councils to provide for intensification

                    Phil Twyford, Labour (present roles)

                    Economic Development Minister 28/06/2019

                    Urban Development Minister 28/06/2019

                    Transport Minister 26/10/2017

            • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.1.1.2
              21 August 2019 at 12:00 pm

              It's not the "expecting”, Sam C, it's the harping.

          • Jimmy 9.2.1.1.2
            21 August 2019 at 2:18 pm

            Sam C is right. There needs to be more accountability for ministers. This current lot are terrible but having said that, the previous government had their issues too.

            • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.1.2.1
              21 August 2019 at 2:23 pm

              Sure, Sam C is Right.
              As, I’m guessing, are you 🙂

            • SHG 9.2.1.1.2.2
              22 August 2019 at 1:31 pm

              Remember when Nick Smith resigned from Cabinet because he wrote something on ministerial letterhead that he shouldn't have?

              • joe90 …
                22 August 2019 at 1:49 pm

                Remember when Smith corruptly misused his ministerial position to advance his friend's interests?

      • SHG 9.2.2
        22 August 2019 at 2:17 am

        Television advertising has a huge impact on our lives. Even if we don’t recognise that, we know it has to be true

        Tune in next time for more things that Boomers believe

    • Anne 9.3
      21 August 2019 at 3:58 pm

      She was an interim CEO on a six month contract after the previous CEO was forced to resign. She departed a month early to take up a new permanent position.

      Not much of a scandal in that is there Master Sam.

  10. Herodotus 10
    21 August 2019 at 11:56 am

    Gil Scott Heron – IMO someone with great insight, articulate and a pioneer in regard to music. who very few know about but many should (Similar to Robert Johnson), great documentary from the BBC on him.



  11. ianmac 11
    21 August 2019 at 12:26 pm

    Oh dear. Not my friend Paula!

    National MPs embroiled in the legal case with Winston Peters are staying tight-lipped about a reported offer to settle for the scalp of Paula Bennett…..

    Newstalk ZB political editor Barry Soper said that lawyers from both sides met in Auckland last week in an effort to settle the case before it goes to the Auckland High Court on November 4.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12260505

    • Incognito 11.1
      21 August 2019 at 12:42 pm

      Demanding her scalp is a bit much IMHO and a decent haircut would do just fine.

      • Dukeofurl 11.1.1
        21 August 2019 at 3:30 pm

        Bennett in the witness box and under oath during cross examination may not be a tidy sight.

        Balance of Probabilities and all that.
        After all the most a Judge could decide is someone is lying when they claim “Im innocent”

        • Incognito 11.1.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 4:56 pm

          She’s pretty good at performing in the House, especially when the Prosecutor is on his feet.

    • Graeme 11.2
      21 August 2019 at 1:02 pm

      This may explain soimon going off the reservation around the PBO as discussed in 5 above.

      National wanting to settle out of court is getting pretty close to an admission. And these delicious ironies (the leak this time) every time the nats end up in court is getting a bit much

      • alwyn 11.2.1
        21 August 2019 at 1:53 pm

        "National wanting to settle".

        How do you come to that conclusion? From the story it could equally well be Winston who wants to settle out of Court.

        • McFlock 11.2.1.1
          21 August 2019 at 2:11 pm

          Well, either Winston demanded $400k or Bennett's sacking to settle (which doesn't seem to indicate a particular desire to settle vs taking it to court), or the nats offered up Bennett of their own accord (which indicates the nats really want the case to go away).

          Odds are that the meeting was a mere formality, or the nats want to settle more than Winston does.

          • Stuart Munro. 11.2.1.1.1
            21 August 2019 at 3:41 pm

            There is another possibility – that they want Paula to go away. The imaginary threat of legal action has been used before, to bribe the Saudi sheep fellow. If the Gnats have a plan so cunning they imagine you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel, chances are that Paula isn't part of it.

            • McFlock 11.2.1.1.1.1
              21 August 2019 at 3:48 pm

              Would they be dumb enough to knife her and give her the campaign manager job as a payoff? Seriously. They might be, lol.

              • Stuart Munro. …
                21 August 2019 at 6:00 pm

                There is that thing that an elbowed electorate MP lingers furiously while a list MP is not wont to stay carping in the house. Gnats are accustomed to sacking people, and disestablishing Paula's position in favour of a Topham Guerin rep. would not cause them much in the way of cognitive dissonance.

                The Whale is retailing the same speculation apparently: “Bennett probably hasn’t realised yet that by giving up a safe seat for a list place she has made herself expendable. Especially if her campaign is as awful as everything else Paula Bennett does.” I won’t link it.

        • Dukeofurl 11.2.1.2
          21 August 2019 at 3:24 pm

          When it says Nationals lawyers wanting to settle

          quote 1: "where the National side expressed their interest in settling the case before .."

          quote 2: "National's lawyers, Bruce Gray QC and Peter Kiely expressed their wish for the case to be settled out of court."

          2 sentences where the words are 'national' and 'settle'.

          national wanted to settle the Eminem case , but he wanted too much money

          Surely Bennett prostrating herslef and saying I repent, and hers $50K would do nicely

          • alwyn 11.2.1.2.1
            21 August 2019 at 5:56 pm

            Is there some other story other than the one in the Herald that was linked to by the comment by ianmac at 11 and which justifies your story?

            The words you give as a quote appear nowhere in that story.

  12. cleangreen 12
    21 August 2019 at 1:48 pm

    Who’s raining love here?
    Better then this;

    ‘Raining plastic’ – fragments of rubber tyres, found by lead scientist, Dr Melanie Bergmann –

    QUOTE; “Can we come up with differently designed car tyres? These are important issues.”

    https://www.sott.net/article/418585-Plastic-particles-falling-out-of-sky-with-snow-in-the-Arctic

    Plastic particles falling out of sky with snow in the Arctic
    Roger Harrabin
    BBC
    Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:29 UTC

    A German-Swiss team of researchers has published the work in the journal Science Advances.

    The scientists also found rubber particles and fibres in the snow.

  13. greywarshark 13
    21 August 2019 at 2:03 pm

    Some apparently good moves for the Manus Island refugee group.

    But a new name to beware of – Bomona. When will this Australian expensive incarceration policy end?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/397171/moresby-move-positive-for-manus-island-refugees