Open mike 21/11/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 21st, 2024 - 59 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

59 comments on “Open mike 21/11/2024 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. gsays 1
    21 November 2024 at 7:14 am

    What has happened to us as a country?

    A heart breaking report about a family and their experience with Oranga Tamariki. To be clear, I am not having a crack at the family nor the social workers here. It is the system under which we live that is broken.

    "So you're getting an inconsistent response. And what we heard from Oranga Tamariki's own staff is that the decisions they are making are unduly influenced by the resources available, not based on the risk to the child."

    That is it in a nutshell. The grim reality that we find day after day. Dunedin's promised hospital is at risk of being a shadow of the needed facility because 'budgets'.

    Lester Levy having to act personally to get Milo back in hospital budgets because 'budgets'.

    For decades, many ministers of the crown, sat round cabinet tables, willingly continuing to weaponise Crown Law against some of our most vulnerable, damaged members of society because of budgets.

    And we barely raise a whimper, so used to these disgraceful actions.

    Rogernomics, neo-liberalism, market driven economics, Chicago School- call it what you will, this experiment is failing us.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/534245/the-smack-how-a-family-s-plea-to-oranga-tamariki-for-help-with-their-son-unravelled

    • Belladonna 1.1
      21 November 2024 at 11:00 am

      The wider reporting is that, at best, OT have exaggerated claims to judges in order to get the results they want – at worst, they've outright lied.

      From your link:

      "Eventually, Claire loses custody of her son after OT files inaccurate information about her with the Family Court – which it later apologises for."

      Given that some of this 'information' has been proven not to have come from any of the other agencies associated – it seems evident that it was entirely invented within OT.

      "[Regional youth forensics service] have told us that they're concerned about some of the mother's behaviours and indicated there may be an element of medical child abuse," it notes.

      But these concerns are not noted in any of the documents Claire later obtains from the hospital or the forensics service, and she says both agencies later tell her they never raised it with OT as an issue.

      Claire says OT still refuses to tell her where the accusations of medical abuse came from, and specific questions put to the ministry from RNZ about that are also not answered.

      OT's excuses for this are frankly rubbish. There is exactly zero reason that Covid would have made filing (online) documents in an (online) case management system harder.

      I don't think that you can exonerate the social workers concerned here. The system is not the only issue.

      Although, you can blame the system for the fact that highly unprofessional actions of individual social workers are not being effectively managed by OT.

      • gsays 1.1.1
        21 November 2024 at 11:43 am

        While not disagreeing with you, I figure those actions (selective reporting, losing files) happens at a level above the on the ground social worker.

        Most I know care deeply about their clients whereas managers serve the system more.

        My point is OT is underfunded, just like Health and Education. Market driven.

        • Belladonna 1.1.1.1
          21 November 2024 at 2:22 pm

          I don't really believe that inventing data is happening at any level above the social worker concerned. Or at least it's being done with full knowledge of the SW concerned.
          In the reported cases, it seems to be being driven by the personal beliefs of the SW concerned (that there is an issue with the parents/caregivers), and that if the data isn't there, they'll invent it. Deeply unethical.

          Of course, that unprofessional behaviour is then being supported and encouraged by the management and the system.

          The bit about selective reporting and losing (or never recording) files can be more of a systemic/managerial issue. But the lies… not so much.

          Complacent responses from OT about 'reviewing their case-management processes' are just unbelievable attempts to whitewash the situation.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.2
          21 November 2024 at 3:28 pm

          My point is OT is underfunded, just like Health and Education. Market driven.

          yes Underfunding of, and by Oranga Tamariki is an inconvenient truth.

          Free lower North Island counselling service facing uncertain future [11 Nov 2024]
          A lower North Island free counselling service is facing an uncertain future after one of its government contracts was drastically reduced this year. The Marton Counselling Centre's annual budget's taken a $30,000 hit this year during Oranga Tamariki funding cuts.

    • Jilly Bee 1.2
      22 November 2024 at 5:16 pm

      Our family (our daughter) had the same traumatic and devastating experience with CYPS back in 2007. Daughter had day to day care of her two boys after her marriage disintegrated shortly before she became pregnant with her second child. It was a difficult time for her with such young children, the eldest was four and had developed issues with the separation. I suspect our daughter also was grappling with post-natal depression. We bitterly regret now not taking the advice her solicitor gave her when she told him that her eldest son had made an allegation about his father. The advice was that she could well lose custody of the boys if she went through with the allegation to the Family Court. She felt something had to be done and instigated proceedings, which was to be her undoing. Our grandson, I suspect under extreme pressure from his father and parents, recanted his statement which was the death knell for us. I could go on, but to this very day it has affected our whanau, to the extent that she, and my husband and myself (the boys’ maternal grandparents) no longer have any contact with our grandsons and as hubby and I are both in our 80s now, we have had to accept the fact that we may never see them again. In fact, when my daughter attempted to contact him recently asking for reconciliation, and for him and his brother to meet their twin stepsisters, he threatened to set the Police onto her.

      We now rely on our memories and photographs of our grandsons to remember them by – thankfully we also have six other grandchildren who bring us great joy.

      • gsays 1.2.1
        23 November 2024 at 7:01 pm

        That is heart-breaking, thank-you for sharing what is clearly a painful event.

        If only we were granted hindsight. Being in extreme upset is a horrible place from which to make important decisions.

        I suppose you have to trust the boys are happy and be grateful for the mokopuna that are in your life.

        It's what shits me about this regime, is the focus on balance sheets, finance, expenditure etc. All this austerity has human consequences. Even more galling as there is always enough money, it is just a question of priorities

  2. Tiger Mountain 2
    21 November 2024 at 8:42 am

    “Snatch the Patch” is now law. Typical Natzo reactionary move–tough on crime, LoraNorder, throw away the key, bullets are too good for them…

    Some of the gangs are just nasty businesses, but Mighty Mongrel Mob and Mangu Kaha–Black Power, are ensconced in many communities. Smaller towns will have plods and gang members in the same family–lotsa fun coming up.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/gang-patch-ban-police-ready-to-enforce-new-gangs-act-laws/57JISXJ2DFHGXLDWCAEYDDXE5Q/#google_vignette

    I would like see anyone with respect for freedom of expression, association and assembly to wear (now and then) realistic facsimiles of gang patches. T–shirts would do for most rather than an actual patch. Wording would just be…“FREEDOM of Association, Assembly & Speech” with a red fist or Koru in the centre.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    21 November 2024 at 9:23 am

    Parliament's Speaker is trying to figure out how to be credible. Can he walk a fine line between the left & right? Unlikely, but he may try to…

    Now, all three Government coalition partners have written to Speaker Gerry Brownlee calling for tougher rules and penalties at Parliament

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/20/treaty-principles-bill-protest-in-debating-chamber-prompts-complaints/

    The issue is performance art in the chamber (anyone can do it anytime) in general, and the haka performed recently therein which triggered the complaint triad. Brownlee must act authoritatively to maintain his mana. Seems obvious he will penalise the haka performers lest parliament become a circus in the interests of mass entertainment. Perhaps he can apply a mild punishment akin to a rap over the knuckles with the proverbial wet bus ticket, so everyone can pretend justice has been done.

    • Muttonbird 3.1
      21 November 2024 at 9:31 am

      They have been really stung by the national and international reach of one 22 year old MP (Maipi-Clarke) and another talented young activist (Kapa-Kingi). They are trying to control the only place they think they can to ensure such publicity for indigenous rights never happens again.

      Seymour in particular, who prides himself of his party's social media strategy, must be furious with jealousy that these newcomers have reach many magnitudes beyond what he is able to achieve.

      • James Simpson 3.1.1
        21 November 2024 at 10:26 am

        Don't assume all the publicity has been positive though. The videos have been spread wide and far by hard right reprobates like Matt Walsh and Andrew Tate.

    • Mike the Lefty 3.2
      21 November 2024 at 10:05 am

      To be fair to Brownlee it does seem like he has at least tried to be neutral and fair until now but he is under increased pressure to "do something about these Maori antics in the house " from the government parties.

      They will remind Brownlee privately that they can break him as easily as they made him if he doesn't play by their rules.

  4. Muttonbird 4
    21 November 2024 at 9:24 am

    Have to laugh at the CoC and hangers-on desperately trying to minimise 700m social media views and a 50,000 strong protest.

    They would die for such engagement.

    And also this lame attempt to frame Hīkoi mō te Tiriti as a Māori party rent-a-crowd.

  6. joe90 6
    21 November 2024 at 10:06 am

    Because people often forget which degree they have.

    .

    /

    Linda McMahon, President-elect Donald Trump’s choice as education secretary, incorrectly claimed in 2009 that she had a bachelor’s degree in education on a questionnaire for a Connecticut Board of Education post, according to news reports at the time.

    McMahon received a bachelor’s degree in French and a teaching certificate from East Carolina University, according to her alma mater’s announcement that she would deliver the 2018 commencement speech.

    The error on the questionnaire was reported by the Hartford Courant during her unsuccessful campaign for the U.S. Senate in 2010. She said at the time that she mistakenly thought her degree was in education because she did a semester of student teaching, and that she had written to the governor’s office the previous year to correct the error after another newspaper noticed the mistake.

    McMahon resigned from the state education board one day after the Courant told her it intended to write about the error, the paper reported, but McMahon said the timing was unrelated. The state education board could not immediately fulfill a request to provide a copy of the questionnaire and other correspondence Wednesday morning, but the Trump transition team did not dispute that the error occurred.

    https://archive.li/ZoJUy (wapo)

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    21 November 2024 at 10:55 am

    Biden had to pivot:

    Data from the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) shows that Russia has gained almost six times as much territory in 2024 as it did in 2023, and is advancing towards key Ukrainian logistical hubs in the eastern Donbas region. Ukraine's surprise incursion into Russia's Kursk region is faltering. Russian troops have pushed Kyiv's offensive backwards. Experts have questioned the success of the offensive, with one calling it a "strategic catastrophe" given manpower shortages faced by Ukraine. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn0dpdx420lo

    The ISW data shows Moscow’s forces have seized around 2,700 sq km of Ukrainian territory so far this year, compared with just 465 sq km in the whole of 2023, a near six-fold increase… Col Yevgeny Sasyko, a former head of strategic communications with Ukraine’s general staff, said Russia places “powerful jaws” around the flanks of a city that slowly “grind though” defences until they collapse… the “meat grinder” approach said to be favoured by Russian commanders – describing the waves of recruits thrown towards Ukrainian positions in a bid to exhaust troops.

    Putin's reluctant conscripts have worked the magic?? If so, it means traditional cannon fodder military strategy didn't die after WWI. Power from the people. Just plug them into the system to power up.

  8. Bearded Git 8
    21 November 2024 at 11:00 am

    The USA continues to support genocide under the Democrats. Shameful and unprincipled. No wonder they lost.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-lone-veto-gaza-ceasefire-call-un-citing-it-neglects-hostages

    • SPC 8.1
      21 November 2024 at 11:37 am

      A US official ahead of the vote made clear that the US will only support a resolution explicitly calling for the release of all remaining hostages as a key part of the ceasefire.

      Is the USA is supporting Israel blocking aid as a tactic to coerce the release of hostages?

      Did not the Israeli justice on the ICC agree this (blocking aid) was a war crime/form of genocide?

      Or are they saying that aid can be delivered despite there being no cease-fire?

      Where is the evidence?

      There needs to be a cease-fire (at least to Jan 20) to enable a focus on aid delivery.

  9. SPC 9
    21 November 2024 at 11:20 am

    The way occupation in the WB is now practiced, because of …. security ….

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20gnvz1975o

    It began with the settlements (opportunity to have what belonged to others without their consent), then came the fences, excused by intifada.

    This is different, it is of a systematic effort to remove access of Arabs to the land of their village. Those who protest the injustice go to an Israeli prison.

    We are witnessing the truth of the words, power corrupts.

    In the democratic society, there is a form of class war. It is ongoing and there is often injustice.

    But there is not a military occupation to prevent resistance, there is not the denial of a vote, there is not the building of an apartheid regime.

    For now, the world does not recognise that the apartheid regime has legitimate sovereignty over the land and sees it all as matter of occupation regime which would/will end with a peace settlement.

    It seems that current practice is moving beyond apartheid to herding one group into fewer and more confined areas. PalArabstans called Ramallah and … and …

    For mine, if there is no American call for the olive harvest harassment to end, they have to be seen as the enablers of this despotism/tyranny/deliberate injustice/intentional iniquity.

    And this has nothing to do with Hamas/security at all.

    Israel has used Hamas as excuse to maintain and expand its WB occupation, now it is using the Hamas attack to dismantle the Gaza settlement, restore IDF occupation and confine PalArabs there into confined areas, as on the WB. There is even talk of a return to Jewish settlement (and then there is the gas off Gaza and the need for land for facilities onshore).

    Israel will now focus on Iran and Hezbollah, because of their war against Israel as a nation state, as their rationale.

    In this the last best hope for Palestinians is the Arab league convincing Iran to recognise Israel within 67 borders.

    Otherwise the way ahead includes Netanyahu and the fascist coalition partner he enabled obtaining Trump recognition of a river to the sea Israel.

    One can note recent moves within Israel, to deny voting rights to those whose opinions are inimical to that of the Jewish state, would exclude those on the WB, or in Gaza, from voting.

  10. tWig 10
    21 November 2024 at 11:22 am

    Big Hairy News, from 8 min onwards shows the pathetic media skills of Luxon, on the Treaty Principles Bill; cringe-worthy.

    • ianmac 10.1
      21 November 2024 at 1:02 pm

      Appalling eh tWig. When a PM fails to answer any questions on a national issue while grinning at his own cleverness, but manages to recite the same litany of lies at least 10 times in 10 minutes. Wow!

  11. Muttonbird 11
    21 November 2024 at 11:44 am

    Yup, people have noticed and are now commenting:

    "Your government's cancellation of key infrastructure projects and sinking-lid cuts to the public service are powerful contributors to the current severe and prolonged recession," the open letter said.

    Didn't stop RNZ spending half the article, in an amendment no doubt requested by the ninth floor, attacking those commentin. I do wonder what RNZ thinks the ‘public’ in public broadcasting actually means.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/534365/government-s-fiscal-policy-dragging-out-recession-economists-say

    • SPC 11.1
      21 November 2024 at 1:17 pm

      The real critique was that the government focus on public sector debt was wrong.

      The group of 15 independent, union, and university economists has sent a letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Finance Minister Nicola Willis, saying their approach to managing public finances is short-term and short-sighted.

      It said the policy rationale was unclear given that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand (RBNZ) already had inflation under control, and that the policy ignored the private and external debt levels, which were much higher and more worrying than government debt.

      In that context this

      “Your Government’s cancellation of key infrastructure projects and sinking-lid cuts to the public service are powerful contributors to the current severe and prolonged recession,” the open letter said.

      was but one manifestation, and a temporary one, of this wider mistake.

      They could cite international advice (IMF and OECD) to broaden government funding and incentivise moves to invest in new housing and the productive sector. And to increase infrastructure spending (by borrowing).

      However I suspect the approach of the C of C is of a design to reduce the cost of government and to avoid any broadening of the revenues (CGT, estate/inheritance, stamp duty, wealth, windfall profit or progressive taxation on companies) and to fund infrastructure via foreign investment and or ownership – which will make the private debt (housing related), total foreign debt and invisibles deficit worse.

      This course and the anti-Treaty moves seem of a design to become a rentier satellite model state of the Atlas Network (this would in fact be a failed state bailed out by being incorporated into Oz)

      PS The smart ones know this. But it is the governance they want as they build up their own wealth, so they are sorted.

    • Jimmy 11.2
      21 November 2024 at 2:06 pm

      Ganesh Nana has been a long time Labour economist and Craig Renney being a union economist is also obviously very left leaning so they are hardly independent and it's hardly surprising that they think anything this government do is wrong.

      Try Brad Olsen or Tony Alexander if you want a more informed opinion.

  12. aj 12
    21 November 2024 at 12:05 pm

    UK Groundswell. Has become very funny with Brexiteers Farage, Clarkson, and Tice showing up at various events and demonstrating their hypocrisy and greed.

    "A relatively benign tax on dead millionaires has become the new "wedge" issue on the British internet, driving pointless polarisation and distracting people from more serious problems"

    "Low-information social media users "carefully thinking through the issues" yesterday"

    https://neokrat.blogspot.com/2024/11/farm-tax-becomes-new-fake-issue-to.html?m=1

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    21 November 2024 at 12:11 pm

    Labour's Ginny Anderson just hit the headlines on the RNZ news at noon, predicting that the gang-patch law will drive crime underground. A more-masterly exposition of Labour thought hasn't been seen in recent centuries.

    Listeners will marvel at her sub-text: National & Labour govts have long colluded to encourage crime to occur above ground, as per normal – so the current govt is attempting to overthrow this satisfactory norm. Whether listeners see it as exemplary political logic remains to be seen, but the notion that National is driving crime back underground where it lay in the distant past will entertain many.

  14. Drowsy M. Kram 14
    21 November 2024 at 1:41 pm

    Luxon: "It's a case of slower to go faster". Faster backwards? Watt Watt, don't you know?

    New Zealand drops seven places, to 41st, in global climate change league table [21 Nov 2024]
    Despite having high renewable electricity generation from its hydro dams, New Zealand had "taken significant backwards steps in climate policy".

    The 20th annual Climate Change Performance Index said New Zealand still had an ambitious climate target for 2030 but it was not clear how it was going to meet it, with the new government having scrapped policies boosting public transport and delayed pricing greenhouse gases from farming.
    …
    RNZ has approached Climate Change Minister Simon Watts for comment. The minister was in Baku, Azerbaijan at the COP29 global climate summit.

    • SPC 14.1
      21 November 2024 at 1:55 pm

      We'll have to

      1.beg other nations, special pleading, to remember we were so good at the beginning with our hydro dams, it was/is harder for us to do better.

      Ask for adjustment for population growth – and only have us focus on emissions per person instead.

      2.as for agriculture, claim it is unfair that any production for export be in our count.

      So far so good. The next will be the hard sell.

      3.claim that the middle class gated community addiction to cars to get to places they want to be at, without meeting other people on the way there, is a human right.

      Then the world will understand, this is why the country has no CGT, estate tax/inheritance tax, gift duty, stamp duty, wealth tax, progressive company tax, windfall profits tax – their (wrapped in sheep wool) establishment has entitlement syndrome.

      My view, the first step is valid, but loses credibility, if we want the world to confirm to the rest of that narrative.

      • SPC 14.1.1
        21 November 2024 at 2:08 pm

        confirm to conform with.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.2
        21 November 2024 at 2:22 pm

        https://ccpi.org/ranking/

        At 41st spot NZ's still above Aussie, which dropped two places to 52nd, but two more years of CoC rule and who knows…

        A new government was elected in October 2023, and the CCPI country experts note that it has taken significant backwards steps in climate policy. It is unclear how New Zealand will meet its international climate obligations or its 2050 emissions reduction target. Concerningly, the country’s independent Climate Change Commission has warned that the country is not on track to meet this target.

        50% of the Country’s GHG Emissions Come from the Agricultural Sector

        https://ccpi.org/country/nzl/

  15. SPC 15
    21 November 2024 at 2:13 pm

    The art of the deal, VIP person is on charge and indicates approval of Trump's election win and the huuge amounts of money he would be investing in the USA.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c78dkgm9e7ro

    Microsoft was under anti-trust perview in 1999, so donated to the Bush campaign. Look at all those tech monopolies around now … . Too big to fail. And they all have data available for government and or election campaigns.

  16. Red Blooded One 16
    21 November 2024 at 3:49 pm

    Another failed CoC policy

    No surprises that already the re-offending has started after Boot Camps. And Mercenary Mark doesn't have the strength of character to resign after his failures. What a CoC-up.

    • Mike the Lefty 16.1
      21 November 2024 at 4:26 pm

      The guy is a rival for Seymour for the title of parliament's most arrogant..

      If something doesn't go right it's always someone else's fault.

  17. SPC 17
    21 November 2024 at 5:21 pm

    Culture and its expression.

    Since the franchise was extended to men without property and then those who were once without the same or equal status as their fathers, brothers or husbands, some women have teamed up with the party of establishment, privilege and property ownership and assimilated into that culture.

    And become worthy of their hire and on merit become one of rank or status.

    More women have not chosen that course, not joined to that wisdom, nor voted for it and certainly not engaged with it; except in offering advice and asking questions.

    In response, they find women of the right inclined to making quiet asides to their male colleagues about women of the left. Ones they know will endear them to men who want their women compliant and of use.

    This is why, in early feminism, women were told that they would be rewarded for their intelligent choice to depart from the company of men.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360495357/labour-claims-erica-stanford-has-been-calling-mps-stupid-b

    • Muttonbird 17.1
      21 November 2024 at 6:34 pm

      Looks like a serial offender. I always knew there was something wrong with Stanford under that oh so capable demeanour.

      She's a bully like the rest of the Nats.

      • SPC 17.1.1
        21 November 2024 at 7:01 pm

        Sledging is team thing, some teams have a poor culture, the individuals may be moire human/humane when not part of it.

        • Muttonbird 17.1.1.1
          21 November 2024 at 7:09 pm

          If it were a one off she might be afforded a bit of slack, but if what the Labour Party are asserting is true, this is embedded in Stanford's character.

          I think the ability doesn't match the ego, and on that it doesn't help Erica that the RWNJ media fawn over her so much.

  18. Jenny 18
    21 November 2024 at 5:46 pm

    'Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East'

    Don't make me laugh.

    yet another YT clip

  19. Jenny 19
    22 November 2024 at 5:26 am

    '

    "The arc of history may be long, but it bends towards justice" Martin Luther King

    link

  20. Jenny 20
    22 November 2024 at 6:14 am

    '

    Whataboutism

    Dictionary meaning

    Definitions from Oxford Languages

    whataboutism

    /ˌwɒtəˈbaʊtɪz(ə)m/

    noun

    1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

    Whataboutism is not a denial of an allegation, Whataboutism is about alleging that the accuser is doing the same, or worse. In effect Whataboutism is an admission that you have no defence against the original allegation being made.

    Surely there has never been a more blatant use of whataboutism to deflect attention away from an allegation than this one.

    In future times whenever a teacher or lecturer might want an example of 'Whataboutism' to make clear its meaning to their class, they couldn't give a better example than this.

    @7:59 minutes:

    Thank you madam president. My apologies for taking the floor.

    I just need to respond very briefly to some comments made by the representative of the Russian Federation…..

    ……Russia is in no position to single out any state for being responsible for the deaths and killings of civilians when every day it is raining down hundreds of missiles, bombs and UAVs on the people of Ukraine, conducting some of the most savage and barbaric attacks seen in Europe since World War II.

    We will continue to remind the world of this barbarity carried out by a permanent member of the security Council n blatant violation of the UN Charter.

    So Madam president, I would say to my Russian colleague that he should think twice before accusing anyone of hypocrisy.

    Thank you.

  21. Jenny 21
    22 November 2024 at 6:47 am

    Because Germany alleged that Britain had deliberately created famine in India did not mean that Germany had the right to commit genocide in Europe.

    Because Russia is killing civilians in Ukraine, does not mean the US has the right to support the killing of civilians in Gaza

    There is no doubt that the British Empire committed crimes against humanity in India and many other of its colonies.

    There is no doubt that the Russian Federation has committed crimes against humanity in Ukraine.

    None of these crimes against humanity justify committing further crimes against humanity.

    But here we are.

    • mikesh 21.1
      22 November 2024 at 10:22 am

      These matters are not always matters of logic, but sometimes matters of judgment. For example, if Russia judges it necessary, for reasons of defense, to attack Ukraine in order to neutralize the threat of NATO moving right up to its border with Ukraine, then she is not going to sit around mulling over the question whether such an attack is logically justifiable.