Open mike 21/08/2013

77 comments on “Open mike 21/08/2013 ”

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1. Doug 1

   21 August 2013 at 7:07 am

   Labour like to justify their position with old polls this is the latest poll not looking good for Labour.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9066577/Bold-policy-fails-to-grab-new-support-for-Labour

   The poll shows Labour continues to wallow in the doldrums on just 31.6 per cent, a five-point slide from the start of the year. In contrast, National has emerged all but unscathed from a difficult few months to poll at 48.3 per cent – down about one point from May, but up more than four on the start of the year.

   [lprent: The post was about the Roy Morgan poll. As far as I’m aware Labour haven’t mentioned the Roy Morgan poll. So I presume from your first paragraph that you’re equating us with being the Labour party.

   As you’re well aware, we are not – but reread the policy if your memory has gone.

   However because of your previous history of doing this type of lame-arse stupidity, this is your only warning. If I see you try this type of crap again, I will ban you from commenting here until after the next election.

   You know the rules of this site. We don’t appreciate being tarred with being anything apart from who we say we are – read the about. And I personally don’t like idiotic creeps like yourself who try to insinuate that we are.

   It doesn’t add to debate. It just becomes a flame where useless creeps like yourself can wank yourself in pornographic troll fantasy. Now you can either debate politics without playing kiddie games, or you can wind up with going back to whatever enclave of stupidity you usually mastubate in (whaleoil?) and count coup. Either way is fine by me.

   Moved to OpenMike as your first paragraph had nothing to do with the post you put it in. ]
2. logie97 2

   21 August 2013 at 7:46 am

   Does anyone else find it strange that the master of “I can’t quite remember…” was able to recall in parliament yesterday, during an exchange with Shearer, “He said quote, unquote blah blah…”.

   Wonderful. The problem is now fixed, no longer having brain-fades. Perhaps journalists will now ask him direct questions and he will not resort to “I can’t quite remember”.
   Perhaps he can now recall what he was doing in 1981 with a little more certainty, and how many shares he had, and which Tory Party Lords visited him.
   • JK 2.1

     21 August 2013 at 7:52 am

     However the problem with the Labour caucus continues : the fumbling Shearer. How utterly incompetent of him to have a meeting with his opponent which he asked to be kept secret. And then to bring it out into the open himself – giving Key a wonderful opportunity – yet again – to put him down. It’s become embarrassing to be a known Labour supporter – having to watch and listen to his “performances” in the House.
     • wyndham 2.1.1

       21 August 2013 at 8:06 am

       Absolutely spot on JK.
     • Red Rosa 2.1.2

       21 August 2013 at 8:21 am

       Got it in one.
     • chrissy 2.1.3

       21 August 2013 at 10:04 am

       You only have keys version of how this meeting happened. Which was a little bit Famous Five, which I am sure is his preferred bed time reading.
       Shearer said he asked for the meeting. I believe him. Everybody knows by now that once key has put his spin on a situation you only ever have a small smidgen of the truth.. He certainly turned it into a cloak and dagger situation. He just needs to open his mouth now and I start laughing. I personally feel that Shearer is doing better every day and am not seeing much of this mumbling crap you keep harping on about.
       • Colonial Viper 2.1.3.1

         21 August 2013 at 10:10 am

         Did you even read JK’s comment above? That an experienced political operator would never put himself in a vulnerable ‘my word against his word’ position with Key.
         • Jackal 2.1.3.1.1

           21 August 2013 at 10:38 am

           Yeah! Because John Key is known for his honesty eh CV. The reason David Shearer asked the question is because National had claimed that they had consulted with a number of party’s concerning the GCSB legislation. It turns out that National, once Peter Dunne’s vote was gained, didn’t want to consult at all. Whether Shearer asked for the meeting to be kept secret is beside the point (Key is likely to be lying again, all meetings between GCSB committee members are confidential), National did not attempt to seek cross-party support for the GCSB amendment bill.
           • Colonial Viper 2.1.3.1.1.1

             21 August 2013 at 12:09 pm

             Yeah! Because John Key is known for his honesty eh CV.

             That’s exactly the point I was making. Key is known for his dishonesty, so why even put yourself in that vulnerable position.
             • McFlock …

               21 August 2013 at 12:24 pm

               Because his word is more believable than key’s.

               After all, key is “known for his dishonesty”.
         • BM 2.1.3.1.2

           21 August 2013 at 10:39 am

           I really don’t get what he was trying to do apart from let Key kick him in the balls repeatedly.

           Dave has no idea, get rid of him, he’s a complete numpty.
   • Tracey 2.2

     21 August 2013 at 8:38 am

     YES, thought exactly the same thing. His memory is back! His memory is back! Now, ask him lots of questions.
3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

   21 August 2013 at 7:55 am

   Worried about new GCSB powers being expanded and the lack of democracy in NZ. : (
4. framu 4

   21 August 2013 at 7:58 am

   oh dear

   so going by john key, roughly 75% of NZ are lefties?
   • Tracey 4.1

     21 August 2013 at 8:39 am

     Which is why he needs the GCSB stuff to save us from ourselves.
5. bad12 5

   21 August 2013 at 8:11 am

   Did He take up the offer of a free full frontal lobotomy to improve His performance, the Alfred E. Nuemann of television Jonolism Patrick Gower on TV3 news last night called the latest National Government share offer ”An election bribe”

   When as few as 2% of the population will take part in this little process of parting the population with the profitable assets it already owns ”An election bribe” is hardly a useful descriptive,

   ”A gross act of theft” would be more fitting, perpetrated by this National Government on the majority of it’s citizens…
6. James 6

   21 August 2013 at 8:13 am

   Snowden: NSA targeted journalists critical of government after 9/11
7. vto 7

   21 August 2013 at 8:23 am

   one big bold opinion for tossing into the opinion pot……

   Labour must get rid of Shearer.

   I switched past his speech at the Ak town hall such was its drabness. He fumbles and bumbles. He does not land any hits. He does not have charisma. He does not have chutzpa. He has had time and it has not worked. He certainly has talents and skills and is a very useful human bean, but get real you Labour eggs – he is not a leader of the type required. You all know it and are sticking yoru heads in the sand. Or rather, you are letting it happen to be more certain about your own personal places in the 2017 election, and that is political scum action. You are declaring on the 2014 election. Arseholes.

   Dump Shearer.

   Get rid of Shearer.

   (but don’t think you can have cunliffe because I offered him a place in the VTO Party and it seems he may well take it up…)
   • JK 7.1

     21 August 2013 at 8:36 am

     ” Or rather, you are letting it happen to be more certain about your own personal places in the 2017 election, and that is political scum action. You are declaring on the 2014 election. Arseholes.”

     I reckon you’re spot on, vto. The majority of the Labour caucus are in it for themselves.
     Like Roger Douglas in the 1980s, they hoodwinked the Party members into believing their rhetoric and now we (Party members) are lumped with these people who’ve got themselves a cosy job for life, public status, wealth and perks. Sickening. I can’t believe its happening again.
     • Jackal 7.1.1

       21 August 2013 at 8:57 am

       What a load of rubbish! First vto says that Shearer isn’t suitable, then basically says there is nobody to replace him. What you are therefore advocating for is the undermining of Labour.

       Personally I thought Shearer’s speech at the GCSB meeting got the message across. He certainly didn’t fumble or bumble. Sure, he didn’t get the response of Russel Norman, but what he said was easy to understand and well received.

       What many commentators have clearly missed from that speech is David Shearer saying that Labour would replace the GCSB legislation after an in-depth review of all surveillance agencies. That’s probably the biggest revelation of the night.
       • Tracey 7.1.1.1

         21 August 2013 at 9:02 am

         No it’s not. He has said it over and over, every time he has been asked on radio and tv what he would do.

         Better would be, repeal it and then review…

         Keep GCSB in limbo while it happens, doing no spying at all… I am sure they would all enjoy the break.
         • Jackal 7.1.1.1.1

           21 August 2013 at 10:27 am

           Could you link to one instance before that Auckland town hall meeting where David Shearer has previously said the GCSB legislation will be REPLACED under a Labour led government Tracey?
           • Veutoviper 7.1.1.1.1.1

             21 August 2013 at 11:54 am

             I will give you a link, Jackal.

             This from the Herald on 26 July the day after the first public meeting in Auckland on 25 July opposing the GCSB Bill.

             http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10903651

             I posted the link here at that time and again on 18 August on Open Mike at 1.1.1.2.
             • McFlock …

               21 August 2013 at 12:35 pm

               Second paragraph in your link:

               However, he said the law would not be rolled back until an independent inquiry into New Zealand’s intelligence services was carried out.”

               and farther down:

               “We would have an independent review and legislation would come out of the review. The current legislation would need to be repealed, modified or whatever.”

               The inquiry would begin “immediately” after the election, if Labour formed a government. “That would be one of the first things we got off the ground.”
       • JK 7.1.1.2

         21 August 2013 at 9:10 am

         “What you are therefore advocating for is the undermining of Labour.”

         Jackal : that’s what is already happening via the ABCs and others in the Labour Caucus. Whatever anyone thinks of Shearer’s speech at the GCSB meeting, his actual leadership is the pits ! and the Labour caucus knows this, but still keeps him on – to the detriment of Labour gaining any upward traction into the 2014 election. It is they (the Labour caucus) who is undermining any chance of Labour winning the next election, not vto or other commentors on this blog.
         • Jackal 7.1.1.2.1

           21 August 2013 at 9:35 am

           “…undermining any chance of Labour winning the next election”? You deluded fool! On recent polling Labour and the Greens will win the next election.
           • phillip ure 7.1.1.2.1.1

             21 August 2013 at 9:57 am

             jackal..you must realise that unless key leaves before the next election..(proven to have willfully lied to parliament/the nz people..?..)

             ..and is replaced by one of the dead-eyed-twins..collins or joyce..

             ..you must know that key will monster shearer in any elecion-debates etc..

             ..and yes..the trends do seem to be heading the centre-lefts’ way..

             ..but to cling to the wreckage that is shearer..for just those incremental-poll-gains (read:..stagnation) reasons..

             ..would be a group-delusion of gargantuan proportions for labour..

             ..surely you can see that..?

             phillip ure..
             • Jackal …

               21 August 2013 at 10:23 am

               So your solution is to get rid of Shearer at a time Labour is gaining support and replace him with David Cunliffe, an MP who barely registers on preferred PM stakes and has already ruled himself out?

               As for your claim that Key will monster Shearer in any debates…I totally disagree. Shearer can easily hold his ground against the deceitful snake as this video and many others like it show. The propaganda claiming that Shearer isn’t a suitable leader is highly exaggerated.

               I get that you don’t like him, but don’t be buying into all this right wing rubbish saying that Shearer doesn’t have the support of Labours caucus etc. Don’t be trying to give Labour advice similar to the likes of Slater and Farrar that would clearly be detrimental to the Labour party and the left wing if obeyed.
               • phillip ure …

                 21 August 2013 at 1:19 pm

                 um..!..jackal..!..the right want shearer in there..

                 ..for two reasons..

                 1)..easiest for key to beat..

                 2)..and should circumstances get out of control..and national lose..

                 ..shearer is seen as malleable..

                 ..and no real threat to the current power-paradigm..

                 ..surely you can see that..?

                 ..and you must also be aware that the person the right least want in that job..is cunnliffe..

                 ..for two reasons..

                 1)..hardest for key to debate against/to beat..(there are none in labour with a better grasp of their portfolios..you have to admit that..)

                 2)..and while i don’t see cunnliffe as a tolstoy..should a centre-left coalition win power…cunnliffe is the bigger threat than shearer to the right/that elite-power-paradigm..

                 ..and while opinions are opinions..and most with a few braincells have them..

                 ..it could be argued that having done commentaries on questiontime for so long..

                 ..i have had a great deal of exposure to all of them..(more than is probably healthy..)

                 ..and it is from these observations that i make that cunliffe vs. shearer-call..

                 ..(not from the howls/spins of farrar and w/oil..as you claim..

                 ..farrar who i have looked at a handful of times in the last six months..

                 ..and w/oil who i haven’t looked at since he posted the severed head of a recently slain deer (by him)..as a bonnet-ornament on his s.u.v..(which was about 18 months 2 yrs ago..i guess..)..

                 ..and i’m afraid i don’t buy the argument that the voting public don’t yet know of the skills of cunnliffe..

                 ..a year + the fire and brimstone of an election campaign is plenty of time for that voting public to see what cunnliffe has to offer..

                 ..and i repeat that call..cunnliffe..at this point in time/circumstances is the only one in labour able to see off key..

                 ..it’s as simple as that..really..

                 ..and seriously..!..what have you seen in shearer to date to make you believe he has what is needed to lead a reforming government of the ilk both you and i would support..?

                 ..’cos..i’m sorry..i can’t see that happening..under shearer..

                 ..phillip ure..
                 • Jackal …

                   21 August 2013 at 2:08 pm

                   In my opinion, Shearer vs Cunliffe is no longer a story phillip ure. You’re harping on about a dead issue. Likewise, Shearer vs Norman isn’t worth even discussing while the Greens have around 14% of the vote.

                   What is of far more interest at the moment is the committee inquiry into the Vance/Dunne emails and how the Henry inquiry was (mis)conducted. Judith Collins is sitting on that committee and some of her questions today indicate that she doesn’t accept the explanation that the DPMC weren’t complicit in breaching process and consequently people’s privacy. That indicates to me that she’s smelling blood in the water and will start gunning for Keys job.

                   The Collins vs Key story is of far more import than buying into the right wing’s 90 day notice or any other similar rubbish you seem to enjoy repeating. Clearly, not all right wing propagandists support Shearer as you claim. In fact I can only think of two.

                   As for Shearer’s qualifications and skills, let’s take the most recent example…Key says Shearer would “run for the hills” in the event of a terrorist attack, when history shows that this claim is entirely false. Shearer in fact did the exact opposite when a real terrorist attack occurred…he went to help those injured. That’s the type of courage we need in a Prime Minister. Shearer thankfully also displays some humility about such things, which is more than can be said for Key. Is it perhaps his arrogance that you respect and the fact that Shearer doesn’t display a similar ability to bullshit his way out of any situation? Shearer vs Key is what we should be talking about.

                   In that Shearer is a moderate centre/left leader I have to agree. However I think you will be surprised at just how much the next Labour government will enact to progressively change the status quo. Their capital gains tax and other housing policy for instance is clearly not beneficial for the elite property investors who are pricing average Kiwi families out of the market. A number of other policies that bear a striking resemblance to what the Greens propose have also been announced. So your claim that Labour under Shearer’s stewardship will just be Nat lite is clearly wrong!
                   • blue leopard …

                     21 August 2013 at 2:25 pm

                     I think Phillip Ure makes a good point here.

                     This may be a dead issue for you, Jackal, however it may be that others, such as myself, feel that, considering the shambles that the Nat govt are consistently making of governing, Labour/Left should be polling through the roof.

                     It may be that Cunliffe no longer considers himself for the job, I don’t know whether this is true or not, however, it would be very good to see someone with a great deal more conviction leading the Labour party than what is currently the case.

                     Is this current state of affairs really the best that the NZ left has to offer for leadership of its biggest ‘left-wing’ party? Its pretty sad if this is so. In fact, its laughable.
                   • bad12 …

                     21 August 2013 at 3:37 pm

                     Jackel, while i agree with most of your comment i totally disagree with your view on Labour’s flagship housing policy,

                     Here’s why, a Capital Gains Tax will do little to slow the appetite for the middle class to have investment property(s), where these property’s are used as a rental investment over the medium to long term which will be the intent of most Capital Gains Tax will have no effect, so there will be just as much demand for rental investments as there are now even should Labour build it’s KiwiBuild,

                     KiwiBuild, 10,000 houses for sale to those who can afford a mortgage, in Auckland and Christchurch the price of land will prohibit all but those earning at least 50,000 dollars a year in household income from being able to buy such a property,

                     This then becomes a direct taxpayer subsidy to the children of that middle class who have helped create the ‘affordability crisis’ in the first place by piling into rental investment property en masse,(100,000 homes have transited in the past 20 years from private dwellings to rental investment housing),

                     The children of the middle class will go on in five years to have gained enough equity in their Kiwibuild property to enable them to seek to mortgage a second property as a rental investment thus continuing the ‘goldrush’ on the supply side,

                     In discussions here at the Standard with 2 successive Labour Housing spokespeople there has not been even an open admission that we as a country need tens of thousands more State Houses than are currently available let alone a promise to increase the number of state houses we have now,

                     ”Still working on the numbers” doesn’t cut it in my world, Labour have had 5 years to work ”on the numbers” and what Labour’s total housing policy looks like for anyone who cares to seriously look at the numbers is simply Houses for the middle class and everyone else who cannot ever afford to buy can be trapped as a tenant of that middle class by Labour as rent paying slaves with 40-50+% of their incomes paying for that middle classes investment and retirement choices…
                   • phillip ure …

                     21 August 2013 at 4:19 pm

                     (some quick corrections for jackal..)

                     1)i wd submit that the shearer leadership is most certainly not the ‘dead issue’ you claim..

                     2)..i neither like nor dislike shearer..i neither like nor dislike cunnliffe..i know neither of them well enough to bother with that..

                     ..i am judging them on political-performance/politics only..

                     3)..once again..you accuse me of parrotting/channeling farrar/w/oil..i repeat..i read neither..and am able to think for myself..eh..?..i find i don’t really need that much direction..in forming my political views/opinions..eh..?

                     4)..and as for shearer as ‘humble-action-man’..?..a bit of a groin-stretcher there..? ..?..doncha think..?

                     5)..you suggest i ‘respect’ key..?..really..?..please show me any evidence of that..

                     (unless you are conflating my noting how he will monster shearer..into ‘respect’ for the man..?..is that it..?..)

                     6)..labours’ housing policy..(as others have already ably noted..)..falls well short of what is called for/needed..

                     ..(and let’s not forget robertsons’ abject-pander to the right/elites..his promise that reforming power is all an incoming labour govt would do..(a lapse/flashing neon-sight seen/debated by many here..

                     ..and..didn’t that alarm you..?..at the time..?)

                     ..and finally..perhaps you could point me to links to actual policies/promises from shearer/labour..

                     ..that currently seem to so reassure you..?

                     ..phillip ure..
                   • Jackal …

                     21 August 2013 at 5:12 pm

                     phillip ure

                     1)i wd submit that the shearer leadership is most certainly not the ‘dead issue’ you claim..

                     That’s because it suits the right wing and a few on the left who want to gain Labour’s vote. To Labour and the majority of voters out there, this is a dead issue. It’s also now a dead story to any journalist with a modicum of integrity.

                     2)..i neither like nor dislike shearer..i neither like nor dislike cunnliffe..i know neither of them well enough to bother with that..

                     ..i am judging them on political-performance/politics only..

                     Then you should acknowledge that Cunliffe hardly even registers on the preferred Prime Minister stakes. You should be aware that there are just as many negative stories (if not more) about Cunliffe as there are for Shearer.

                     3)..once again..you accuse me of parrotting/channeling farrar/w/oil..i repeat..i read neither..and am able to think for myself..eh..?..i find i don’t really need that much direction..in forming my political views/opinions..eh..?

                     You don’t need to read their rubbish to be on the same page phillip ure. At the moment their accusations against Shearer actually have more merit than your current argument as it stands. In fact apart from saying mumble and bumble, what was your argument again?

                     4)..and as for shearer as ‘humble-action-man’..?..a bit of a groin-stretcher there..? ..?..doncha think..?

                     Not at all. Look at the example provided. Are you saying that it’s somehow inaccurate?

                     5)..you suggest i ‘respect’ key..?..really..?..please show me any evidence of that..

                     (unless you are conflating my noting how he will monster shearer..into ‘respect’ for the man..?..is that it..?..)

                     Yes! You are saying that Key is a better debater than Shearer, which effectively equates to praising Key. Are you saying that Key shouldn’t be respected for his (according to you) ability to best his opponents? That seems illogical!

                     6)..labours’ housing policy..(as others have already ably noted..)..falls well short of what is called for/needed..

                     However, it is what’s currently available to Labour to help more Kiwis (including poor families) into home ownership. Unfortunately there is no magic wand to fix over forty years of dysfunctional economic and social policy that has adversely affected housing. Labour’s policies will go some way to rectify the dysfunction, which with our huge debt levels is all that really can be hoped for. If what they propose isn’t good enough, what do you suggest?

                     As for your claims that Grant Robertson has pandered to the right wing elitists by apparently promising that reforming power is the only thing an incoming Labour government would do, got a link for that?

                     I’m sure you’re capable of searching for Labour’s legislation that I have previously referred to phillip ure. Whether it’s advantageous or not is a matter of opinion. Currently approximately 34% of voters think it is.
                   • blue leopard …

                     21 August 2013 at 6:12 pm

                     @ Jackal

                     Let’s say I own a restaurant/cafe and that it only gets a quarter full on the busiest days. I really need it to be at least half full on these days.

                     However this is a dead issue because:

                     1) It suits my competition to criticize my business and that this means the criticism isn’t true

                     2)My competition hardly even registers on the top ten list of restaurants, therefore it isn’t like I’m doing that bad.

                     3)People write rubbish about my restaurant and even people who don’t read this rubbish are saying the same thing.

                     4)People don’t seem to be receptive to when I tell them I have delicious food in my restaurant. They must be suspicious and deluded types for being that way about what I say.

                     5)My friends often pop in on a quiet night and tell me that the restaurant down the road has a full house. This is not helpful to me because it is flattering to them.

                     6) Some people have told me the food I sell is stale, however there is no magic wand to fixing this problem because I have a lot of stock, and it has been building up for so long.

                     I just wish people would stop complaining and praise my restaurant and stop giving me constructive criticism because that my restaurant only gets quarter full on the busiest days is a dead issue because of the above and because noone is talking about it anymore and anyone who is, simply lacks credibility
                   • Jackal …

                     21 August 2013 at 6:17 pm

                     Yes! People who are saying there’s currently another option to David Shearer as Leader of the Labour party lack credibility. Not sure why you’re talking about restaurants blue leopard?
                   • blue leopard …

                     21 August 2013 at 6:36 pm

                     lolz Jackal, you appear to be suffering from a particularly severe case of denial. Eyes tight shut. That must be awful.

                     However you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it open its eyes. (same goes for dogs I suppose) I will stop trying; I think you understood the point.

                     Happy cherry-picking.
                   • phillip ure …

                     21 August 2013 at 7:34 pm

                     so..in summary..jackal..i am actually some sort of double-agent for key/the right..?

                     ..and all that vegan/animal-rights/workers-co-op/reversing inequality/partial-nationalisation/leftie/ stuff that i spout/advocate…

                     ..is just a deep-cover..?

                     ..whoar..!..you’ve rumbled me..!

                     ..the game is up..!

                     ..my cover is blown..!

                     ..what tipped you off..?

                     ..was it my closet ‘respect’ for key..?..that eagle-eye you spotted..?

                     ..was it my refusal to see shearer as a re-born lange..?

                     ..and saviour of the nation..?

                     ..what blew my gaff..?..guv..?

                     (..and anyway..that’ll be the end of this conversation..eh..?

                     ..i think we have both stated our differing positions/reasons..

                     ..and any more would just be repitition/boring/descending to me rejoinding to personal-insults in like..eh..?

                     ..and..i can’t be bothered..eh..?

                     ..phillip ure..
                   • Jackal …

                     21 August 2013 at 9:42 pm

                     I said you lack credibility because you promote somebody who currently doesn’t have a chance to take over from David Shearer. Although undermining the Leader of the opposition ultimately only helps the right wing, I never said you were an agent for John Key. Stop creating straw men to try and win a debate you’ve quite clearly lost phillip ure.
                 • leftbutnotdeluded …

                   22 August 2013 at 1:49 pm

                   cock
           • Skinny 7.1.1.2.1.2

             21 August 2013 at 10:18 am

             I agree Jackal. National are out next year, the issue is will Key go early in calling a election? If he doesn’t Nationals loss will be even bigger.
           • karol 7.1.1.2.1.3

             21 August 2013 at 11:27 am

             Which polls are you looking at – this today on Stuff?

             The poll shows Labour continues to wallow in the doldrums on just 31.6 per cent, a five-point slide from the start of the year. In contrast, National has emerged all but unscathed from a difficult few months to poll at 48.3 per cent – down about one point from May, but up more than four on the start of the year.

             Personally I don’t rely on polls. I see a bumbling inept Shearer, failing to capitalise on Key and his government’s mis-steps and unpopular moves.

             Enough! Shearer must go!
             • Jackal …

               21 August 2013 at 11:39 am

               You don’t rely on polls but quote a poll as your argument?

               I’m basing my opinion on the latest Roy Morgan polling of course, which states:

               If a National Election were held now the latest NZ Roy Morgan Poll shows that a Labour/ Greens alliance would win.

               If you truly don’t rely on polling to form your opinion, then link to something that shows Shearer being . Please note, Kiwibog or Whale Oil will not suffice.
               • karol …

                 21 August 2013 at 12:03 pm

                 Huh! I used the other poll to compare with the more positive one you linked to, to show the unreliability of polls. It was not an endorsement on the reliability of polls – just the opposite!

                 Generally I hold back from criticising Shearer too much (especially in posts).

                 I have referred to in comments and posts of late – mostly comments – to the weakness of Shearer – at the GCSB Akl town hall meeting I went to on Monday night. And in the House yesterday in Question Time.

                 I started the post with a focus on the excellent questioning by Russel Norman over whether the NSA/US government contribute funds to the GCSB & other GCSB issues. The subsequent inept attempts by Shearer – over Question 3, and the whole fish incident, insured Norman’s exposure of the potential NSA funding & Key’s contradictory statements did not make the evening TV news, but Shearer’s antics did. The guy needs to go as leader.

                 I have a post queued for publishing in the next half hour that shows some better performances in the House by other Labour MPs – one is not usually an MP I support a lot, but the post shows there are far better operators in the Labour caucus than Shearer. It’s frustrating that we are still being subjected to Shearer’s ineptness.
                 • Veutoviper …

                   21 August 2013 at 12:19 pm

                   I agree with you Karol, on Shearer. I have tried and tried to not be too critical but yesterday’s performance in the House was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. He deserved everything he got back on his question to Key.

                   As I have just commented at 11 below, Shearer has no questions in QT today.

                   Robertson is doing the daily “does the PM stand by all his statements” I did not see all the GCSB Bill debate last night, but Shearer was nowhere in sight – and Mallard seemed to be holding the fort for the entire front bench for most of what I saw. Meetings behind closed doors going on perhaps?
                 • bad12 …

                   21 August 2013 at 1:16 pm

                   i am amused at the number of commenters here who while quite legitimately criticizing Labour’s David Shearer on speeches such as the ‘roof painting Bene bashing’ effort and other aspects of His abilities then go on to demand of Labour that they get rid of Him,

                   Most of those who demand such are not members of the Labour Party and it ‘seems’ that most will not vote for that Party,

                   Can you imagine the ‘flame war’ that would ensue here on the Standards pages if those who are Labour members and supporters of Shearer began a tirade of comments dissing the Green Party’s Russell Norman and demanding He stand aside as Leader,

                   What i will say about Shearer is that He is the Leader of a middle of the road Party full of middle class people determined to fight elections with National for a small slice of the middle class electorate,

                   As such He seems to fit…
                   • karol …

                     21 August 2013 at 1:39 pm

                     i am amused at the number of commenters here who while quite legitimately criticizing Labour’s David Shearer on speeches such as the ‘roof painting Bene bashing’ effort and other aspects of His abilities then go on to demand of Labour that they get rid of Him,

                     Most of those who demand such are not members of the Labour Party and it ‘seems’ that most will not vote for that Party,

                     Is why I tend to refrain from criticising Shearer a lot – especially in posts. But some of Shearer’s actions are damaging the left and/or wider government opposition. This is especially so on things like the GCSB Bill where the opposition has attempted to work somewhat together.

                     Right now, a Green party vote is a vote for a Labour-led government. So it is of concern for non-Labour voters of the left.
                   • bad12 …

                     21 August 2013 at 3:49 pm

                     Karol, aha, and as the saying goes a rising tide and all that, allows the likes of me to while the Green Party appears to be gathering support, shift my vote further left to the Mana Party,

                     Perhaps further left is a bit of a misnomer and would best be termed ‘to a party of the left seriously concerned with the bread and butter issues of those who are forced to rely upon the least income’,

                     Yes of course we have to consider as you say that a vote for the Green Party is a vote for Labour who i am sure will behave despicably throughout the term of such a coalition but it then behoves the Green Party to be well prepared with a comprehensive coalition agreement which sets out the 3 year Parliamentary term and the specific policy gains the Green Party expect along with the budget required,

                     The Green Party success or failure in such a coalition will rely on having first pinned Labour down on all the details and budgets befor the Cabinet seat carve up with the Green party’s minds firmly fixed upon what has happened to all the smaller of the Party’s in coalition with either Labour or National under the MMP electoral system…
                   • JK …

                     21 August 2013 at 4:20 pm

                     Not sure how and why you can make the assertion, bad12, that “most of those who demand (Shearer’s head) are not members of the Labour Party …….”

                     I most certainly am a paidup member of Labour, and am exceedingly frustrated by Shearer’s inability to grab the moment and act like a real leader, and I’m also not impressed with a number of old-time caucus members who have had their day, and should be put out to pasture. None of them are doing Labour members a service by continuing to sit in their cushy seats.
                   • JK …

                     21 August 2013 at 4:47 pm

                     forgot to mention, bad12. as a longtime Labour activist and paidup member, I am now seriously questioning whether I’ll be voting Labour while Shearer is the leader.
                   • Veutoviper …

                     21 August 2013 at 6:29 pm

                     Bad12, just for the record, much as I was a swinging voter in my earlier years, I have voted mainly Labour for many years – Annette King in Rongatai. I was a bit uncertain as to whether to continue to do so in the 2011 election, but stuck with Labour – and joined the Party in 2012.

                     As such, I believe I have the right to state my opinion on the party. But, quite frankly, Shearer may be a nice guy, but I despair at his lack of politicial experience/instinct and communication skills – and commitment to Labour values.

                     I just watched Goff speaking in the 3rd reading of the GCSB Bill with knowledge and passion – and in some ways wish the party had stuck with him for these skills. OTT, he carries baggage from the past, and understand the decision to go with a fresh face etc. Unfortunately, I believe the choice made was the wrong one.
                   • Murray Olsen …

                     21 August 2013 at 7:18 pm

                     My thoughts are pretty much the same as Karol’s on this issue. If I’m around to vote next time, Mana will get my party vote. Electorate will depend on where I am and who’s standing, but possibly Labour. None of the parties not of the extreme right can rule on their own, so those of us on the left depend on a moderate right party, Labour, to lead any coalition. To that extent, the more votes Labour gets from their supporters and the more pink tinged their policies, the more we can expect some real progress. I can’t see Shearer leading Labour to win a really significant proportion of the vote, and I can’t see him breaking the paradigm that sees beneficiaries on roofs as part of the problem. For these reasons, I think Aotearoa needs Cunliffe as leader of the Labour Party.
                   • lprent …

                     21 August 2013 at 7:20 pm

                     I’ve been doing stuff in the party off and on since rousting people out in the Eden electorate for Richard Northey in 1984.

                     I’ve been a party member with a few lapses of a year or so (I’m notorious for never having cash) since about 1986 (my partner signed me up when she was active in Dunedin North).

                     I have been active in the party since 1989, when I looked first at Prebble in Auckland Central and decided that Clark (while a radical feminist leftie) wasn’t a nearly as much of stupid nutter as Prebble was, was pretty competent, and started working in Mt Albert. Over the years I have literally put in years doing campaigning and organising through to writing code for Labour along with many thousands of dollars in donations. But I have done it because they have been largely competent.

                     I think and have stated that the caucus were completely nuts to put in someone so inexperienced as a leader. It wasn’t good for either the party nor for what looked like a promising MP. Regretfully I still think the same.

                     David Cunliffe or indeed a number of other MP’s would have been better, but still flawed, candidates for the job. But the culture in caucus really appears to be far too toxic to expect much cooperative or even coordinated activity like electing a competent leader, developing a competent caucus, and starting to agree on coherent and coordinated policies.

                     But I really can’t abide incompetence or timewasting. So I’m looking around for a party that is looking to improve their performance rather than having their caucus sitting on it’s hands waiting for ‘their turn’ like any other pack of time servers. That could be Labour if it reforms and actually starts developing its own party (rather than quietly hoping it will wither away). But I don’t think that the MP’s have the imagination to figure out what will happen if they don’t, and will instead actively participate in it’s demise..

                     I’m probably still a member as my VFL goes out each month. I help people out when I have the time. But at present much of my activity goes on this site as being a more useful and productive use of the time I can give politics.

                     So no. You’re wrong…
                   • weka …

                     21 August 2013 at 7:50 pm

                     i am amused at the number of commenters here who while quite legitimately criticizing Labour’s David Shearer on speeches such as the ‘roof painting Bene bashing’ effort and other aspects of His abilities then go on to demand of Labour that they get rid of Him,

                     Most of those who demand such are not members of the Labour Party and it ‘seems’ that most will not vote for that Party,

                     There is a big long list of Labour party members and voters in the debates on tw around the time of the LP conference last year and since. Go look it up.

                     Can you imagine the ‘flame war’ that would ensue here on the Standards pages if those who are Labour members and supporters of Shearer began a tirade of comments dissing the Green Party’s Russell Norman and demanding He stand aside as Leader,

                     As a GP member I can say that if the GP had a leader like Shearer for the kinds of reasons that Shearer is leader, and the GP was being criticised from the outside, I’d be agreeing with them. Plus what others have said, this is MMP. Labour caucus are at the point of fucking the country, again. All people on the left should be concerned about this.

                     What i will say about Shearer is that He is the Leader of a middle of the road Party full of middle class people determined to fight elections with National for a small slice of the middle class electorate,

                     As such He seems to fit…

                     Yeah, my middle class dad, a swing voter between Labour and NZF I think, seems impressed by him. I’ve not asked, but I suspect that Shearer’s mumbling isn’t considered a fatal flaw like it is here amongst the politicos. Dad also hates Key, and can’t vote GP or Mana, so that leaves Shearer or Peters. But you are missing the point. My personal objection to Shearer isn’t that he represents the middle class (although I think Labour party members’ criticism of Labour’s loss of its roots is valid). It’s that he’s just bad at his job and may well cost the left the next election. In other words, if he was competent, then let Labour hold that place in the political spectrum, and the GP and Mana will take up the slack. At this point in time the issue isn’t so much about the make up of a left wing govt, I think the imperative is to just have one so Key and co can’t have another 3 years.
       • phillip ure 7.1.1.3

         21 August 2013 at 9:50 am

         re shearer:..i must admit his seeming equivocations on tv3 breakfast this morn did not reassure..

         ..as a promise of any heft:..’a review’ doesn’t really add up to much -is diddly-squat..eh..?..

         ..and as a replacement for shearer..?..one able to better/best key..face-to-face..?

         ..of the current labour crew..

         ..only cunnliffe could cut that rug..

         ..phillip ure..
         • yeshe 7.1.1.3.1

           21 August 2013 at 3:33 pm

           Only Cunliffe can bring the fire and brimstone to knock out the teflon. He is speedy in his mind and deftly powerful with his language, and skilled in politics.

           I like David Shearer and honestly believe he is a decent Kiwi with good things to bring … but not now, as leader at a time like this. He is drab and without charisma on tv ( which matters very much whether we like it or not), and yesterday was a debacle which was made more of today by various govt members in the house. Shearer scored a huge own goal at the worst time possible.

           The Labour Greens and NZF together should be showing a total of 65% in the polls with what is going on, imho. This is the most corrupt govt we have ever had .. never before has greed been so open and the arrogance so derogatory and derisive to the last remaining pillars of our society.

           Please do it soon; listen to Labour members and make it possible for this govt to be banished in 2014.

           Cunliffe.

           Cunliffe.

           Cunliffe.
8. ak 8

   21 August 2013 at 8:24 am

   CODE RED: Publication of counter-poll grade ONE, all outlets and operatives full attack and distraction. IMMEDIATE EFFECT
9. Tracey 9

   21 August 2013 at 8:37 am

   “Mr Guy accused Mr Cunliffe of scaremongering and talking rubbish.

   “I’m disappointed that he is trying to exaggerate and scare people. “”

   he must HATE being in Government with Key then and accordingly will vote against the GCSB Bill…
10. Huginn 10

    21 August 2013 at 8:46 am

    Groklaw, the award-winning website covering legal news of interest to the free and open source software community is closing down as a result of the NSA revelations:

    The owner of Lavabit tells us that he’s stopped using email and if we knew what he knew, we’d stop too.
    There is no way to do Groklaw without email. Therein lies the conundrum.

    What to do?

    What to do? I’ve spent the last couple of weeks trying to figure it out. And the conclusion I’ve reached is that there is no way to continue doing Groklaw, not long term, which is incredibly sad. But it’s good to be realistic. And the simple truth is, no matter how good the motives might be for collecting and screening everything we say to one another, and no matter how “clean” we all are ourselves from the standpoint of the screeners, I don’t know how to function in such an atmosphere. I don’t know how to do Groklaw like this.

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175
11. Veutoviper 11

    21 August 2013 at 12:09 pm

    No questions from Shearer in Question Time today?

    Robertson is down for the daily “Does the PM stand by all his statements” routine instead.

    Quite bluntly I am not surprised after Shearer’s performance yesterday, walking straight into the fire.
    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      21 August 2013 at 12:11 pm

      Jackal reckons it’s all good mate, so no worries.
      • Veutoviper 11.1.1

        21 August 2013 at 12:22 pm

        LOL – somehow I don’t think I will take that as read!
      • Skinny 11.1.2

        21 August 2013 at 12:29 pm

        Shearer got a solid round of applause at the start of the rally. Unfortunately his speech lacked real passion. His reluctance to clap some of the other speakers comments was noticeable, like jealousy of Norman was disturbing! Under Shearer the Greens are going to get treated like shit ‘again.’
      • Jackal 11.1.3

        21 August 2013 at 6:12 pm

        Don’t be a prat CV.
12. karol 12

    21 August 2013 at 12:33 pm

    Yes, Skinny. I noticed Shearer sat unmoved and not clapping for most of Norman’s speech – and in contrast the audience was giving Norman loads of positive applause to Norman. Shearer didn’t clap any other politician very much, but I though he gave Peters more applause than he gave Norman.
    • Paupial 12.1

      21 August 2013 at 1:30 pm

      Bomber’s welcoming of Norman as; ” New Zealand’s next minister of finance” really seemed to put Shearer’s teeth on edge for his whole speech. But then, Shearer’s mumbling drabness did help Norman get his standing ovation for best speech of the night by comparison.

      Still Shearer’s “didn’t last time” come back to Key’s “run for the hills” slur yesterday was pretty good.
13. framu 13

    21 August 2013 at 2:47 pm

    sound familiar?

    arent cameron and key best buds?
    • felix 13.1

      21 August 2013 at 11:33 pm

      In the big picture, they may as well be the same person.
14. Plan B 14

    21 August 2013 at 4:35 pm

    Oh look just what we all need, an idiot/expert (Fletcher Building chief executive Mark Adamson) from Britain telling us that we (in this case Australia) got it all wrong for all those years .
    Recently appointed Fletcher Building CEO riding high on the efforts of his predecessor lambasts Australia for having unions ( boo) and saying what it needs is a Margret Thatcher (who?)
    What a joke.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=1111…
    Australia has old-fashioned union arrangements and needs “a dose of Margaret Thatcher,” says Mark Adamson, the British chief executive of Fletcher Building.
    Next he is I off to Germany to explain how they got it so very wrong as well.
    Take any year you want since Thatcher came to power and look at AUSvs UK and you would have to be made to think that the UK has gotten anything right at all. This man has to go.
    Please Mr Adamson go back to Britain if you like it so much.
    I am really getting sick of UK ‘fly-ins’ telling us in this part of the world how to do things- from Government Dpts to Public companies.
    Unless they undertake an intensive re-education process to rid themselves of outdated/ insane UK thinking – they should not be considered for any senior appointments.
    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      21 August 2013 at 8:45 pm

      Mark Adamson should be sent to the fucking pit to work for a few months.
15. Colonial Viper 15

    21 August 2013 at 8:13 pm

    Merrill Lynch works graduate intern to death

    http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/aug/21/bank-intern-death-working-hours
16. Jenny 16

    21 August 2013 at 8:44 pm

    Climate Change causes rising sea levels, right?

    Wrong. At least in one bizarre and short lived instance.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24080-how-an-ocean-went-into-hiding-in-australia.html#.UhR3ZipXv6l

    This shows the complexities and confusions that more energy trapped and circulating in the land, sea, air system can lead to.

    As previously stable systems break down, look toward more bizarre side effects. From snow falls that dwarf all others. To Icebergs floating past the North Island. To droughts and hurricanes in places that have never experienced them before.
    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      21 August 2013 at 8:52 pm

      How’s the Arab Spring going for Egyptians nowadays?
17. Treetop 17

    21 August 2013 at 10:06 pm

    I have just finished watching 3rd Degree which has exposed a festering oozing sore in how a serial rapist could have been stopped after he first attacked as the brave woman gave the police his name. An inquiry is required without delay as 24 more women were terrorised over an eight year period. The response from Collins was to complain to the IPCA and the IPCA have declined to investigate. This is out of order and shows a callousness toward such serious offending and the pathetic investigation that was carried out from the time that the first complaint was made to the police.

    I am so pissed off as the government expect the public to trust the police and the police (at this point in time) are not being held to account. Just like how the GCSB Bill does not have to explain how they are going to ruin lives.

    I wonder if going through ACC for exemplary damages is an option as 25 rapes occurred and I would not be wrong in thinking that the total is higher. Some sort of severe penalty is required.
18. felix 18

    21 August 2013 at 11:16 pm

    Is there some reason the mobile version of the standard keeps loading on my pc?

    edit: Forget that, of course there’s a reason. What I mean is can you make it stop??

    edit: Forget that too, of course you can.
    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      22 August 2013 at 12:22 am

      Glad I’m not the only one suffering that problem. Whatever it was, it reset my username cookie and made me nervous.
      • felix 18.1.1

        22 August 2013 at 12:55 am

        Been a few glitches in the matrix tonight. Missing cookies for a few sites. Couple of very odd redirects from google. Things that make you go hmmm.

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