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Open mike 21/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, September 21st, 2014 - 433 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

433 comments on “Open mike 21/09/2014 ”

  1. Tigger 1

    So…there’s that.

  2. Te Reo Putake 2

    Well, it’s a glorious sunny day where I am. I don’t like the result, but I’ve been on the wrong side of the score sheet before and I’ve always bounced back. I reckon everyone here at TS who commented, who argued their side, who exhorted others to get involved, who put the interests of kiwis above the interests of individuals’ greed should look be proud of their efforts.

    All parties of the left need to look at their strategies and see what can be changed for the better. Labour needs to keep the internal reform process going and ditch the focus groups and start talking to party members about what NZ wants. We know and we want to be asked. And, like it or not, identity politics was the problem; “I’m ashamed to be a man” was worthy and laudable. I

    The Greens can be pleased to have held their ground; they weren’t tainted by Dotcom as Labour was and they

    • Anne 2.1

      ….and start talking to party members about what NZ wants.

      …and that won’t happen until there is a complete clean-out of the old hands from the Fourth Labour government. It is they who created the culture of “we know best” which saw rank and file members being pretty much left out in the cold.

      The truth is: the membership are the people who live in the real world with their ears to the ground. If they had had their way, Cunliffe would have been anointed after Goff stepped down in December 2011. I think the result would have been quite different had we not been ignored.

      • Higherstandard 2.1.1


      • ghostwhowalksnz 2.1.2

        Really ?

        What was the ‘cleanout’ when national went to 20% in 2002.

        You may not have noticed but the old crew from those days, including English are still around.
        National didnt change anything except they got a shiny new ribbon for their box of tricks- John Key.

        • infused

          you need to open your eyes

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            So tell us , who was cleaned out of national in 2002. Brash had only a one vote victory over English ( who is deputy to this day) 2 years after.

            So the lesson of 2002 ( or the lesson of 20%) is steady as it goes

      • Chooky 2.1.3

        +100 TRP and Anne

        Have to say though :

        1) it wasnt a good look Labour putting up and stridently endorsing Kelvin Davis against Hone Harawiria…the Left lost 4+ seats ( and Labour did it with the support of Nactional , Maori Party and NZF …surely they should have thought about that and withdrawn Davis?….hame on them ALL!)….and cut out some of the best Left long term , most experienced Left activists NZ has……the Left can not afford to turn against the best of its own…it is Team Left not Prima Donna Labour ( those days are gone )

        2.) not a smart move to exclude the Maori party before the Election

        • Colonial Viper

          Labour and National worked together to take out Harawira, one of the most ardent and capable supporters of the underclass in Parlament, and prevent Laila Harre from getting a seat. This is going to cause some significant animosity on the ground. The Left stayed at home while the Right turned out in force. And we have Kelvin Davis to show for it.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            Hone lost because he hitched his motaka to Dotcom.

            national and Labour didnt ‘work together’ in TTT. Its too silly for words to say this.

            Labour took two other Maori electorates

            • Colonial Viper

              I haven’t done the analysis yet, but i believe it will show significant tactical voting by supporters of other parties to end Harawira and Internet Mana.

              • Anne

                I think you are right CV. There was tactical voting but I agree with gwwnz. It wasn’t the Nats and Labs working together… it was the voters themselves who chose to do it. Many have been tactically voting for years. They don’t need political parties to tell them what to do – except of course in Epsom and Ohariu.

                • Labour, National, NZF and The MP all worked together to get rid of Hone and the Mana Party (and KDC of course) – they all advocated for kelvin davis – hell even DPF and slater gave him money for that antiwebsite. Time to front up to this one and ask the hard question of why, why would they all do that? Might be a good book 🙂

                  • The Al1en

                    Why do you think they did it?

                    • For their electoral advantage individually and collectively.

                      Please note because weka told me off I won’t be too nasty to you but I’d prefer it if you t-rolled someone else. I don’t like your on-line persona, your spite, and your ignorance – but hell you sure can get that electronic voice cranking – that goes off 🙂

                    • The Al1en

                      “For their electoral advantage individually and collectively.”

                      Welcome to politics.

                      “but hell you sure can get that electronic voice cranking – that goes off”

                      I’m giving that up. You don’t want to know where I have to plug the mic cable.

                  • weka

                    “It wasn’t the Nats and Labs working together…”

                    I depends on what you mean by working together I guess, but here’s how I remember it.

                    Labour stand a candidate in the electorate and state their full intention to win.

                    The Labour candidate goes hard to win (I seem to remember DC later indicating that people vote for who they want to vote for, a hint to step back which Davis ignores)

                    John Key publicly supports the candidate just before the election.

                    So does Peters.

                    The Mp asks its own MP to stand down and ask his voters to vote for Labour (he refuses).

                    How is that not multiple parties working to make sure that Harawira, and therefore IMP, are kept out of parliament?

                    • Tracey

                      Labour standing a candidate in epsom too. If greens and labour had no person standing seymour would be gone

                    • weka

                      Only just, yeah? And assuming that those Labour and GP voters would have had the sense to vote for Goldsmith, which is quite a big ask (in terms of them knowing what to do and being willing to do so). But yeah, really shit and I will be interested to see if there is any movement from teh GP on this.

                • weka

                  “I think you are right CV. There was tactical voting but I agree with gwwnz. It wasn’t the Nats and Labs working together… it was the voters themselves who chose to do it. Many have been tactically voting for years.”

                  Anne, so please explain to me how that works? They give their party vote to Labour, then they give their electorate vote to a candidate who might prevent Labour from forming govt. What’s the tactic?

                  • Anne

                    Every case is different weka. It depends on the electorate, the circumstances, and the candidates involved. Since the advent of MMP many people have voted tactically depending on whatever outcome they desire. I have a relative in Epsom who can’t abide ACT so she has always voted electorally for the National candidate even though she’s a Labour supporter. She didn’t have to be told by anyone to do it. She worked it out for herself a long time ago.

                    The same with TTT. There are a lot of people who don’t like Hone Harawira. They come from across the political spectrum and they do like Kelvin Davis. Kelvin is a well known educator from the North. I think they were wrong for the very reasons you give, but it doesn’t rule out the fact they tactically voted to deny Hone the seat.

                    • weka

                      Instead of voting for who?

                    • weka

                      “Since the advent of MMP many people have voted tactically depending on whatever outcome they desire”

                      Sure, but there are many who don’t understand MMP too – think GP voters in Ōhāriu.

                    • Anne

                      Instead of voting for who?

                      In the example I gave, my relative would normally have voted for the Labour candidate because she supports the Labour Party.

                      I guess the increase referred to by DTB below were mainly National and NZ First voters who would normally vote for their respective candidates.

                    • The Al1en

                      “think GP voters in Ōhāriu.”

                      Or mana voters in Waiariki who should have gotten behind Waititi to get Flavell out.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      @weka: “there are many who don’t understand MMP too – think GP voters in Ōhāriu”

                      In fact Dunne would have lost in the previous election in 2011 if the Green voters had all tactically voted for the Labour candidates, Charles Chuvel. Just imagine how lucky NZ would have been in the last three years. Would have been such a different, fairer and more pleasant history!

                      Dunne would have lost this time too. The green candidate had over 2,000 electoral while Dunne had a lead of only about 900 over the Labour candidate.

                      Tactical voting is crucial in certain important or marginal seats.

                    • blue leopard

                      Act, the Maori party & UF could all have been wiped out – and IMP needn’t have been – through tactical voting by the left.

                      What a pity the left are incapable of joining forces. So much for collective people power, huh?

                    • weka

                      “In the example I gave, my relative would normally have voted for the Labour candidate because she supports the Labour Party.

                      I guess the increase referred to by DTB below were mainly National and NZ First voters who would normally vote for their respective candidates.”

                      Voting for Labour when you normally vote Labour isn’t tactical voting. Neither National nor NZF stood candidates in TTT. The only way you could consider this tactical would be to look at Mp numbers in 2011 compared to now. What it looks like to me is that a whole bunch of people chose Davis over Harawira. That’s not tactical, it’s just who they preferred to vote for. I’m sure there are some Mp voters who switched tacticaly too, but I think it overstates the case,

                      You still haven’t explained how so many people gave their party vote to Labour and then their electorate vote to someone who could cost Labour the election. If those people were voting tactically, how does that work? They wanted to get rid of Harawira/Mana at the expense of losing the election? Really? Obviously there will be some right wing voters doing that, but why the big swing?

              • Draco T Bastard

                The 1100 vote majority that KD got came from either National or NZF or both. It was 1900 votes higher than what Labour got.


                • Colonial Viper

                  Yep – significant split voting from National/NZF/Maori Party supporters.

                • blue leopard

                  Interesting, that would mean it wasn’t to do with the left voters disliking Kim Dot Com at all.

                • Anne

                  Act, the Maori party & UF could all have been wiped out – and IMP needn’t have been – through tactical voting by the left.

                  Agree bl.
                  I kept my mouth shut about it but I was disappointed that Labour (and Cunliffe) dismissed any sort of potential arrangement with IMP. It didn’t have to amount to anything more than C&S – just a nod of recognition to another party of the left. Having said that however, I think I understand why they felt compelled to do it. Their internal polling was almost certainly telling them that Joe and Mary Bloggs were believing all the claptrap being fed them by Key.

                  My other big gripe was the “Vote Positive” slogan. When I first saw it I thought… what’s that supposed to mean? If a political junkie doesn’t really get it, what hope was there of the average voter getting it. Some Standardistas came up with some brilliant slogans earlier this year (should have written them down) and instead they went with this pithy-less slogan. Their tacticians need to get out amongst the ‘ordinary folk’ more often.

                  • higherstandard

                    “I kept my mouth shut about it but I was disappointed that Labour (and Cunliffe) dismissed any sort of potential arrangement with IMP. It didn’t have to amount to anything more than C&S – just a nod of recognition to another party of the left. ”

                    Are you insane ? If Labour had done that they would have struggled to get 20% of the vote.

            • Murray Olsen

              I’d say both were causes of Hone’s defeat. Hitching his wagon to Dotcom made it easier for the established parties to get rid of him, but work together is what they did. Labour are about as keen on militant left activists as NActional are.

            • Chris

              But Labour worked hard to take Hone out which they should’ve known could mean wiping out a potential partner. That’s incredibly dumb.

          • Chooky

            CV agreed …and in the last weeks Hone Harawira and the Int MANA party knew they were going to have difficulty getting votes because people feared that it would be a wasted vote…thanks Labour and Kelvin ( and thanks Nactional and NZF and Maori Party)

          • yeshe

            agree CV .. just awful and at such a very high cost.

        • lprent

          Two seats maybe only one after specials. The IMP failed to get even the 2% that was my expected lower bound. They GOT 1.26% and a grand total of 26,539 votes on the night – a few thousand above the 2011 vote for Mana.

          Clearly the IMP were noisy and only really relevant in helping National.

          • ghostwhowalksnz

            noise has helped national- funny that.

            I remember one person who got their two cents worth on tv say, Cunliffe is stopping KDC from being sent to US. Crazy but true

            • yeshe

              KDC can only be sent to the USA if there is a case for him to answer in USA, otherwise extradition will not occur. The US had to include a false charge of money-laundering even to begin the extradition process. So many here don’t seem able to see that KDC is a victim of the very US corporate bullying we so despise in John Key et al.

              Even if you don’t like him, at least be just with the facts and allow him innocence until proven guilty.

              • Molly


                I had to go and re-read the Wikipedia article the other day, which shows how manipulative the corporate involvement has been in his case.

                And the discussion re copyright is far from simple.

          • The Al1en

            “Clearly the IMP were noisy and only really relevant in helping National.”

            Suckered a few in, but drove away many more.

      • Ford 2.1.4

        If Labour talks to it’s members, it won’t learn anything. The members will just say that NZr’s want, (or should want) what Labour offers! Labour needs to talk to ex-Labour voters and ask why they left. Labour needs to ask supporters of other political movements why they would not consider Labour. Labour needs to ask non-voters why they don’t vote and what Labour can offer to be of relevance.

  3. Brendan 3

    Looking forward to 3 years of the Porn Star Economy…

    I wince at the thought of turning the heater on.


  4. Ray 4

    Well I was wrong, the Left were not wanted
    Time to listen to the people, organise and get stuck in

    • locus 4.1

      well… more than half of all New Zealand didn’t vote for john key, and it will only take about 2% of nat voters to realise they’ve been duped by the lies – but don’t let that concern you..

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.1

        All good in theory, but in practice those people dont turnout while National voters always do.

        • locus

          i based that comment on the percentages from this election result….

          i think we just need to win over a few nat voters – not shifting our values to the right – but by reason and charm rather than by continuing to berate and sneer at them

        • adam

          Is this because many on the left know that voting changes nothing! Why, because the right shaft them and the social democrats stab them in the back. I think a majority of left wing non-voters know labour are on the wrong side of history, the voices on their side are hounded out of politics and someone on the so called left will always cut a deal with the 1%.

          The liberal elites in this country are a bunch of spineless, feckless fools. The right wing turds who come on here and tell the left how to “win” – are just another example of the feckless and degenerative narrative that politics has become in this country.

          But please, let the disconnected and the amoral tell the left how to win. Let’s have a country run in the interests of the corporations. Welcome to TTP land – if you think for one minute that was what this election was about – grow the hell up. TPP is coming and with it – the game changes. Elections become even more irrelevant, sovereignty will be lost and you may as well vote national because it will make no difference who you vote for.

  5. SPC 5

    It’s a time for the Labour caucus to think then talk this through internally and also within the party.

    Next year with any leadership race is when public comments can be made.

    The less backbiting displayed in public the better “the team” will look as a voting option in 2017.

    Disunity is the killer for those seeking government.

    • Ant 5.1

      I agree, whatever factions there are, they need to maintain discipline through any leadership race as well. Labour can’t afford any repeat of a new leader battling rumours of disunity due to backbiting made during the selection process.

    • brian 5.2

      Fears of disunity should take a second place to soul searching honest analysis in the aftermath of this election. Not yet, and perhaps never, a time for “blame” for anybody, but that should not mean change. And then with those changes, intelligent (but not blind) unity.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3

      It’s a time for the Labour caucus to think then talk this through internally and also within the party.

      Yes to the latter, no to the former. The time has long gone for a few to rule over everyone else.

  6. TheContrarian 6

    Well, the left were completely trounced last night. An epic mandate secured by National.

    And that’s that. Today is another day.

    • locus 6.1

      yep today’s another day… to begin helping 4 or 5 % of nat voters to realise that there was a better choice

      btw, do you mean an epic mandate to look after the country on behalf of all New Zealanders or just to ‘secure’ the future of nat voters?

      • yeshe 6.1.1

        +100 locus on who it is secured for.

      • The Lone Haranguer 6.1.2

        The real worry for those on the left will not be that Key runs the country for the wealthy, but that he might run it for the people.

        If he does the former, then Labour and friends have a genuine chance next time. If he does it for the latter (as he said he would today) then hes going to steal a bunch more of the middle voters.

        The right voters have nowhere else to go in any case, so he need not concern himself too much about them.

        If he bites into NZF territory, and the neo-lib section of Labour who you guys want excised from the party, then the Nats will be in the prime seat in 2017 also.

        Be careful what you wish for.

  7. Saarbo 7

    I put some of this up last night but have some thoughts to add:
    1) Nats successfully convinced Kiwis that they looked after the economy post GFC, their marketing of “steady as she goes”campaign worked bloody well. LABOUR NEED TO: Attack this belief because Nats have relied on Chch earthquake and Dairy payouts, they wont have either of these in the coming 3 years and so it will be much easier to attack. We are going to see $5b to $6b leave our economy in the next year alone in dairy proceeds so economically it will be a tough 3 years, Labour need to hammer the media with the negative statistics and the growth in private debt, which is going to go through the roof. Labour have a complex set of policies which I reckon are excellent, but way too complex for the average punter to bother getting their heads around. Labour need to simplify their message and hammer it for the next 3 years.
    2) Labour need get cohesion in the caucus and needs to get the caucus and members all working together and start campaigning for 2017 NEXT WEEK. Another Leadership change will guarantee the Nats another term in 2017 and Cunliffe was faultless in the election campaign LABOUR NEED TO: Confirm the leadership ASAFP, have a conference to bring the membership in. I have been a Labour member since 2011 and Im amazed at how aloof the MP’s can be, so the MP’s need to improve their social skills and become representatives of their people. Seem ok when meeting at branch and LEC level but on the whole, average. Cohesion within the caucus is the most important factor if Labour is to be successful in 2017.
    3)Nats Attack Politics works, it has played a part in their success.LABOUR NEED TO: Play this game too, its a reality. Labour need to expose it at every opportunity and work harder at getting the media on-side. Media are the conduit between the party and voters, without the media on side we will never get our policies communicated to voters. I think Labour did play the media, but only for internal reasons.
    4)Dotcom has turned out to be a fucken disaster for the Left, probably the biggest reason the Left has failed so badly.
    5)Kiwi’s are conservative, not in a Conservative Party sense but in a steady as she goes way, that is why one of the winners today is Labour-Maori. It is also why the Greens have struggled to increase their vote despite being many things that Labour isn’t in terms of cohesion and organisation. So Labour is the only Party that can take large numbers of votes from National. LABOUR NEED TO:Re-brand, get a clever agency on board, perhaps Bob Harvey to lead, he is an awesome thinker in this area and has Labour in his veins, Frankly our brand is shit, many reasons for that, a clean out of some of the older heads would be a great start Im thinking.

    • brian 7.1

      It’s too early to suggest a change of leadership, but I do not think that Cunliffe was faultless as you suggest. First of all , I think he did an excellent job in the debates, which was of course a significant reason why he won the leadership. And time was certainly working for him: he was improving. But faultless? No

      a. His apology for being a man was a disaster, that perhaps he never recovered from.

      b. Where Key was intelligent enough to support two extra MPs to his side, and was not even openly negative to the looney Conservatives, Cunliffe was passively aggressive towards the Greens, and hostile to Mana. I agree with Laila Harre’s analysis, that Labour unnecessarily three away two seats for the Centre Left. A lot of Mana Internet Support evaporated with the threat of their vote being wasted

      c. If there was a vision for Labour, compared to National, I missed it. If you were a National Supporter, why would you change? (For positive reasons, rather than simply John Key being a crook?). Sure it is possible to trawl through policy statements for the committed political junkies, but for the other 95% of the population?

      d. If there was a vision for Labour, compared to the Greens, I missed it. Why would anybody vote for Labour instead of the Greens? Where was the united stand between the parties, where voters could see the common ground, and simply use their vote to determine the emphasis of particular policies? Where did the two parties agree to disagree, in a united family setting?

      e. Was Labour as a whole wrong to select Cunliffe, as simply a worthy opponent to Key? He is definitely a very intelligent man; A superb debater; and a man who cares. And with time he could still prove to be the right choice. But so too could have Shearer turned out to be the right choice. And losing Shane Jones was a disaster.

      • Saarbo 7.1.1

        -I want to make clear that I support Hone and thought that Dot Com’s money would be good for Hone/Mana, it didn’t turn out so. After I spoke to middle voters, I got the impression that they were completely confused by Dot Com and consequently they were inclined to stick to status quo, so from that perspective I think he ended up costing the Left. I am gutted for Hone re losing TTT, he is the MP that worked the hardest in speaking up for the people who need help the most, a big loss but he will be back.
        -I didn’t think Cunliffe was passive aggressive to Greens (evidence), but suspect that the rejection of IMP was driven by polling that may have reflected what I heard people say and Labour was trying to win these voters over.
        -I agree with C, Labour have a complex set of policies to communicate, but they are good ones. I do think that Cunliffe was right on the Nation this morning, paraphrase: “no government has been voted out when they are governing over an economy doing 4% gdp growth”
        -Don’t agree re Shearer, simply not sharp enough. Jones is gone, I wasn’t a fan but know Labour people who liked him.
        -I hope you are right re Dotcom on 7.2.

      • SHG 7.1.2

        Losing Shane Jones was a disaster on a different level. Jones’s departure brought Kelvin Davis in off the List. With the strategic geniuses at LabourHQ giving Davis such a low list placing, the only way he could stay in Parliament was to win the TTT electorate seat, which would necessarily entail shutting IMP out of Parliament. Which is what happened.

        Davis celebrated victory last night, but you can bet champagne was flowing at the home of the man who made it happen: Murray McCully.

    • brian 7.2

      @ Saarbo says “Dotcom has turned out to be a fucken disaster for the Left, probably the biggest reason the Left has failed so badly.”

      Actually most of that perceived “disaster” was smeared on Dotcom by Dirty John. He only became a “poisoned brand” (in Dotcom’s words) when the left (esp Cunliffe) decided to put the boot into Dotcom too. Dotcom deserves to stand tall, and the “Left” deserve what resulted from their actions

      Dotcom in my opinion has done a service to New Zealand. Perhaps not yet understood or appreciated by most. I am pleased for the work done by Hager and Dotcom, for the issues they both helped to expose, are to me actually more important than the result of the election. And John Key has not achieved vindication for his role in Dirty Politics and his lies on surveillance, by his success in the election

      Nixon won a second term ……

      • Chooky 7.2.1

        +100 Brian “Dotcom in my opinion has done a service to New Zealand”…time will tell

        • yeshe

          +100 here too, brian. and let’s watch Laila take some of the Key skulduggery to international courts.

      • Molly 7.2.2

        Agree. The ability of Key to smear is well honed and effective.

        But the truth of what was revealed was necessary to be out in the open – and the MSM were not going to do it.

        Dotcom and the Internet Party are not the problem here, it is the strategists and the pundits who can’t make an ethical stand without taking the polling temperature.

        I’ll always be grateful for the Moment of Truth event, especially for bringing together the external and appropriate outside and informative commentators on the night. The contrast of those speakers, with our NZ media afterwards was stark.

        I’ll be saving that video for reference for a long time.

  8. Te Reo Putake 8

    Well, it’s a glorious sunny day where I am. I don’t like the result, but I’ve been on the wrong side of the score sheet before and I’ve always bounced back. I reckon everyone here at TS who commented, who argued their side, who exhorted others to get involved, who put the interests of kiwis above the interests of individuals’ greed should very, very be proud of their efforts.

    All parties of the left need to look at their strategies and see what can be changed for the better. Labour needs to keep the internal reform process going and ditch the focus groups and start talking to party members about what NZ wants. We know and we want to be asked. And, like it or not, identity politics was part of the problem; “I’m ashamed to be a man” was worthy and laudable in many ways. It was also electoral suicide. Time to put class back into Labour, time to reconnect with the people Labour was formed to represent.

    The Greens can be pleased to have held their ground; they weren’t tainted by an excess of Dotcom as Labour was. They are here to stay and their leadership is rock solid. A good campaign and a good(ish) result.

    Mana? Well, again a strategic error cost everything. No Dotcom and Hone would still be an MP. But the it’s the mana movement, not the mana political party. The loss of the seat doesn’t have to be fatal, just a lesson learned.

    One small point; less people voted for National at this election that did so in 2011. Their vote fell. It just that our’s fell further. That’s what we need to address. We need to have the right mix of parties, policies and publicity to win in 3 years. I think we can do it and I reckon the Standard will continue to be a sounding board for progressive thought as we rebuild. Thanks, Lynn and the Standard team for all you do.

    Kia kaha!

    (ps, apologies for the partial comment above, not sure what happened there).

    • Chooky 8.1

      Mana did Not lose because of Dotcom…it lost because Labour was not strategic in supporting a Team Left….and Mana was ganged up on by Nactional, NZF and the Maori Party ( the Maori Party which Labour had already excluded from a Left Government…not smart)

      Mana/ Internet also lost because of a vicious media campaign from right wing journalists and msm…Really this was an Election win for a right wing bought corrupt msm media!

      • The Al1en 8.1.1

        No, mip definitely lost because of dotcom.

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          yes you right. It shows in the electorate vote for Hone, he well down from last time, but same candidate from labour.

          You cant win a seat by losing votes you had previously

          • The Al1en

            I’m sure supporters in denial will make a case for blaming everyone but kdc and hh for mip’s failure, but I bet hone and laila know all too well what the problem was.

            kim’s vendetta against key cost mip, fu*k jk hurt mip, and having no evidence at the big reveal killed mip.

            • Molly

              You truly believe that having a MSM that disparaged on Dotcom every time the Internet Party or Mana party was mentioned – had no effect?

              We live in a country where we have limited choices in terms of published papers or television sources for our local news. And they were all repeaters of the same meme.

              I disagree with the premise that truth-telling is a failure because it is not a manipulative tool. I do have a few suggestions about who are manipulative however.

              • The Al1en

                It was all foreseen, the media spotlight and ott reporting.
                Labour knew it, the greens knew it and now kim and hone know it for real.

                • Molly

                  Yes, but your solution to biased media is what?

                  No exposure of dirty politics, no revelation of lying on the part of the PM when he discussed legislative changes?

                  • The Al1en

                    Biased media isn’t really the issue, hone handing them a bat to constantly hit you back with is the crux of the matter.

                    If it were so foreseen, and it was, it shows extremely bad judgement from mana and hone. Should have listened to Sue Bradford, aye.

                    • Chooky

                      Sue Bradford could not have done a better job of exposing the real issues of overseas corporate corruption, governmental corruption, surveillance on New Zealanders and a warning for New Zealand human rights, democracy and sovereignty …than did Mana / Internet and Hone and Laila Harre and Dotcom

                      Biased right wing media augmented the attack on Int/Mana ….and foppish Labour engineered it in cahoots with Nactional, NZF and Maori Party…dealing the final blows !

                      …together they brought down the Left coalition for New Zealanders ( who did not go out and vote)

    • weka 8.2

      “One small point; less people voted for National at this election that did so in 2011. Their vote fell. It just that our’s fell further.”

      It looks like N, L, GP, NZF all got less votes this time than last, but the overall vote is up. How is that possible?

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3

      Mana? Well, again a strategic error cost everything. No Dotcom and Hone would still be an MP.

      I disagree with that. Hone would have been gone with or without KDC. Both Labour and NZF wanted him gone and National did as well. So National smeared KDC/Hone and Labour and NZF responded to that smearing.

      One small point; less people voted for National at this election that did so in 2011. Their vote fell.

      Yep, saw that on Twitter this morning. Here’s the thing – a lot of us on this blog have been saying why it fell and seemingly none of the left parties were listening.

      • marty mars 8.3.1

        I think you are correct re Hone – hard to fight the power of labour, the gnats, NZF and the MP. Having KDC enter the fray just gave them more ammunition to fight him. Having him lose it not all bad (it is pretty bad though) because over the next few years the Movement can be rebuilt – but that is a pretty tenuous silver lining.

  9. kenny 9

    Somebody needs to find out why so many of the labour voters in Trevor Mallard’s and Stuart Nash’s electorate’s party voted National.

    What a disaster!

    • Paul 9.1

      Maybe the answer is personalities win elections? They liked the Labour candidate as well as Brand Key. Charisma appears to win every time …..

      • Ant 9.1.1

        Labour can thank Garth McVicar for splitting the right wing vote more than any campaigning or personalities.

        Thats 7000 votes he probably took off Nationals candidate. I’m not sure it will happen again.

    • ScottGN 9.2

      Why just Mallard and Nash? Labour failed to win the party vote in any of its electorate strongholds apart from the pacifica seats in South Auckland, the Maori seats and (as far as I can tell) Dunedin North where Labour beat National by 24 party votes.

      • kenny 9.2.1

        Agree Scott, they are just the electorates I could remember off the top of my head, but I am sure there were more.

        If possible someone needs to identify these voters and ask them why they voted that way., not likely I’m afraid. A lot of soul-searching and time and effort could be saved by getting answers to this question.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 9.2.2

        main reason is the greens. ACT used to depress the electorate vote for national to some extenet

  10. mike 10

    The election was a testament to the intelligence of Kiwis. In spite of the dirt that the toxic left threw at the Government the electorate saw through it, valued the job John Key was doing and asked them to do more of the same.

    All the media this morning is focussing on the personalities. If Labour & the Greens want a chance to rebuild they need to focus on their policies. The electorate knows a CGT will not change anything, they know that a fund that picks winners will become a political bribe fund & they know Labour cannot build 10,000 houses a year. Labour, the Greens & Mana should note that the electorate does not believe that most parents can’t & don’t feed their kids.

    The electorate also knows that a widening gap is a sign of a strong growing economy where the winners are making plenty of $ which get reinvested in businesses and improve everybody’s standard of living. The electorate knows that the most equal economies are generally equality of poverty & misery and we do not want it here.

    Cunliffe was on hiding to nothing with the nutcase policies he had to sell. Until this changes whoever is the leader of Labour will not succeed.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      Sorry that is bad advice, policies and policy mix have nothing to do with the defeat of the ENTIRE left. A million NZers had nothing to vote for, Christchurch voted for more of the same. Labour has disconnected from the wider electorate socially and culturally, and that is a far bigger and deeper a problem than pushing a new set of policies out there.

  11. ghostwhowalksnz 11

    I see a leading story on Stuff by Kevin Norquay says

    “But having to supply the Speaker, who can’t vote on legislation, means National will be unable to govern alone.”

    THis is just nonsense. We have had MMP for 18 years and yet the idea persists from FPP that the Speaker cant vote (unless in special circumstances.)

    The Speaker does vote each and every time as part of the proxy vote process. It would destroy proportionality if he/she didnt do so.

    His title is fairfax ‘ National Content Editor’, but Norquay hasnt a clue

  12. Richard 12

    All I can say is how come such a low vote count at my local voting station what are they telling me only 450 people voted in a town of 16000 people?

    My boss keeps demanding I work through my break. I do hard labour on a lathe with really heavy steel, 4130QT forgings from aussie weighing probably 40kg each, and I can’t even get a rest after two hours of tool changes on a massive industrial lathe older than I am, with truck sized tool post nuts I have to use a bar on to undo. I am knackered after each day and I can’t even keep above my mortgage and rates.

    I’ve had enough this is just pure BS. Now keys going to push employment reforms through. No smoko as a right anymore.

    This result does not reflect public opinion in my area and for the first time in my 48 years I actually believe in vote count fraud. I cannot help but think keys shrugging off of bad press was because he had the election rigged anyway.

    25 % off welfare by hook or crook, people in winz will die if this keeps going on.

    When my boss comes in gloating on Monday and demands I work through smoko how am I going to ignore my anger and reaction to smash him in and quit. I’ll lose the house everything. I’m bloody devastated. What you don’t do is give bullies encouragement and that’s exactly what the country just did if I’m that out of whack with reality of politics in NZ. I’m nearly 50 I’ve never seen the like of these reforms in all my days.

    Truly suicidal this morning struggling to carry on in the face of working to make the rich , more so, at my lifes essence and expense.

    • Belladonna 12.1

      An old Scottish saying:

      I am hurt, but I am not slain;
      I’ll lay me down and bleed a while
      And then I’ll rise and fight again.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 12.1.1

        “I’m a little wounded, but I am not slain; I will lay me down to bleed a while. Then I’ll rise and fight again.”
        John Dryden (English) Poet laureate 1668

        The words you quote are an English folk song, referring to a Scottish pirate Andrew Barton.

    • Granted 12.2

      0800 543 354 please call this number for help. Seriously if you are feeling suicidal this is number for lifeline aotearoa

    • shona 12.3

      I have not slept and felt the same as you the last two elections. I am more philosophical these days but I’m older and looking at retirement.I don’t have a grueling job to face or an arsehole of a boss I work for my self. i too have wondered about the low turnout. We have been monitoring our own area and campaigned locally to get out the vote. Under 70% less than last time apparently??? Good number of under 30’s up here at the booths.
      it’s the 30 to 45 year olds who are a no show in the north.

    • Disturbed 12.4

      Richard, this kiwi wrote, at 12.

      “Truly suicidal this morning struggling to carry on in the face of working to make the rich , more so, at my life’s essence and expense.”

      A true kiwi Story we must have Labour take as a name and shame policy going forward to sow the seeds of discontent, this man is working very hard for what? just to make the rich richer.

      This is where labour has to begin rebuilding the Labour values, caring for the ordinary hard working kiwi.

      A true kiwi you are.

    • kenny 12.5

      I feel for you Richard; I’m feeling a bit depressed too but I’m not going to let the bastards grind me down.

      There’s always tomorrow and tomorrow is another day. If you can, ‘Always look on the bright side of life………’

      Keep your chin up.

    • weka 12.6

      Richard, please don’t do anything drastic, it plays into their hands and you are worth so much more than Key.

    • RedBaronCV 12.7

      Richard you and your life and experiences are worth a lot, and don’t deserve to be overlooked. I noticed a real absence of young men (lots of young women) from the booths I was in yesterday and wondered if they needed people like you to share your experiences and thoughts with them.

      • Pasupial 12.8.1

        Petition signed.

        Last night was only the preliminary count – the actual definitive count won’t be starting till next week, and will include the quarter of a million special votes (1/8th of total) that were left in their envelopes pending the scrutiny of the rolls today. From my scrutineering of the advance count, I have to say that I saw no evidence of fraud amongst the counters – but boundless determination to get the job done on time despite there being over twice the expected numbers of advance votes. Whether the same vote numbers were communicated to the Electoral commission as determined by the count is yet to be determined.

        The Green Party only need 0.8% increase off National to get another MP, though it’s a shame that it’ll be Browning instead of Davidson. The overseas votes are yet to come, and the informal votes could certainly do with some scrutiny. Still work to do, before this election is done & dusted.

      • kenny 12.8.2

        Signed… my main concern is the party vote; something not quite right I feel.

  13. Disturbed 13

    We faced a bunch of obstacles.
    1/ A stitch up with heavy biased MSM spin.
    2/ We lost the only real chance to dent the right wing when the opposition failed to gather together and go directly to the police and GG and order a lockdown of PM and Edes offices as news broke of corruption.
    3/ Labour should have followed the long time stable Denmark model of socialist Government policy. Denmark is voted happiest country on globe since 1970’s as it has an egalitarian society as old Labour had here. So Labour remake your self egalitarian now please. We did suggest this to you during the election, so please turn back from just trying to be a better Natz party.

    Why are people from Denmark so happy? Study claims …


    Jul 17, 2014 – Last year’s World Happiness Report from the United Nations ranked Denmark the happiest nation on Earth, with an average life satisfaction

    • Chooky 13.1

      +100…especially…”A stitch up with heavy biased MSM spin..”…..the Left need to focus on these journalists and their backers…and expose them!…and set up a viable Left voice in competition

      (The Friday 19th Christchurch Press had a blue sticker at the top of the front page giving all the reasons ( spurious) to vote National…brilliant advertising)

      • RedBaronCV 13.1.1

        So did the Dom post and the one at work last about 3 minutes before one of the women said” we don’t need that around here do we -rip”

    • Gosman 13.2

      Denmark has a fire at will employment policy. Are you advocating that we adopt that as well?

  14. Richard 14

    The reason is simple, between the greens labour and NZ first, mana etc, you just split the vote of the left no one in an electoral seat on the left gets a clear majority. How many seats if you had the greens and labour etc votes added together would have beaten national. But national won because they only had one party for right voters and it all went to make them win and the electoral seat majority.

    Each left voter is torn as to who to direct their vote too, to oust national. at the end of the day no one on the left wins.

    • Descendant Of Sssmith 14.1

      Bullshit. I voted for the Greens precisely because Labour are no longer left. How can you be left when you don’t believe in most of the left principles this country (and the Labour Party) had in the past.

      • Richard 14.1.1

        That’s why I meant as well. the left vote is getting split whilst all the rights votes are concentrated on one party. Barring NZ1st who knows what side they are really on.

        Winstone also stole a lot of votes, again…

        I concur, labours trying to be everything, to all men is not a strategy that works.

        National are winning by being traditionally for the wealthy business interests through and through borrowing like a Ponzi scheme for today, to flood the country with borrowed money to make a thin surplus to boast about. it’s not explained properly and people think they did a brilliant job of steering us through the GFC. Fact is 88 billion dollars flooded into any economy is going to make an operating surplus on the GST and tax clawed back. End of.

        the looked brilliant due to the media selling the lie.

        The party vote count just does not make sense, people appear to vote electoral seat left but party right judging by the returns. How can that be.

        • Rodel

          Richard-I agree with you. Count the numbers. Nats always slip through a divided left.

          • nadis

            You guys seriously dont understand how MMP works. The electorate votes dont matter. What matters is share of party vote. Spplitting the left vote doesnt matter – all that matters is how many vote left versus how many right.

            And Richard – I don’t want to sound patronising as you are clearly pissed off. But your problem isn’t that national got re-elected. Your issue is that your employer is a complete shit. He would still be a shit if Cunliffe was PM.

            Join a union, take your labour elsewhere, understand your rights. Dare your employer to sack you for what appears to be non-legal grounds. Talk to a lawyer. You have some options.

    • You don’t seem to understand how MMP works. You can’t “split the left vote” in a proportional system.

  15. dv 15

    Meanwhile the nat debt is now

    NZ$ 88,642,792,622

    What was interesting is how accurate the polls were this time.

  16. Descendant Of Sssmith 16

    Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of Labour. The creatures outside looked from Labour to National, and from National to Labour, and from Labour to National again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

    Apologies to Orwell.

    In the seeds of Douglas and the rest of the neo-liberals the demise of the Labour Party was sown years ago.

    We have lost the generation who fought and argued and lobbied for a more compassionate welfare system and removed the predation of slum landlords from this country. We have lost the notion of free education and have once again commoditised everything for the benefit of the few.

    And by Labour losing it’s way in the 80’s the young people, the trade unionists, the poor, those on benefit have had no real voice in government for a long time.

    The right is now the norm and the extreme Randian and religious conservative views and now just seen as slightly right.

    The appetite by both the baby boom generation (don’t seem them calling themselves bludgers for working and getting NZS for instance) and immigrants who subscribe to right ideals means that National have a large voting base.

    The failure of successive Labour governments to move things substantially left to reduce the apprehension amongst the new voting public (the refusal to put the $20.00 per week back on benefits continues to keep people in poverty today) and to convey that there were alternatives to neo-liberalism

    So it’s going to be an interesting call for Labour whether they are after power or want to truly champion traditional left-wing policies.

    One path, which is to appeal to the centre, leads to oblivion as Orwell clearly indicates, the other involves a long rebuilding of what they stand for that people can believe in.

    I’ve asked many times both here and of actual Labour MP’s whether they still believe in an 8 hour working day, 40 hour working week, whether they believe in State Housing for life, the right to strike outside of collective contract expiries, and so on.

    I either get no response or “of course I do”.

    The trouble is when you look at their policies what you see is “of course I don’t”

    • @..ss smith..

      ..little to disagree with there..

    • Colonial Viper 16.2

      Spot on. The idiot right wingers throughout Labour are going to use this result to push for a mean spirited light blue Labour. If they win that argument, the entire Left will continue to decline. Another question to ask: where did the Green vote go?

      • weka 16.2.1

        GP lost around 1% over last time, but I expect their overall vote to go up on the specials. I would guess they lost some votes to IMP, and probably Labour who then lost other voters to Peters and to the non-vote. There were GP voters who weren’t sure if they should vote Labour because of Peters and NZF’s refusal to say which way they would jump. But then there were probably Labour voters who voted GP this time too. Lots of vote shuffling. More confusion this election than last I think. Still looks like the non-vote is the big thing.

        Maybe looking at the booth votes will shed some light too.

        Still too many people not understanding how MMP works.

        • Colonial Viper

          Including party strategists and MPs.

          • weka

            lolz, yes.

            And if it’s any consolation the GP need to wake the fuck up on this too. Shame on them for the Ōhāriu result.

            • Disraeli Gladstone

              The thing is, it’s not the Greens fault. Sure, for political tragics like us, we know we need to vote strategtically. A lot of people don’t. They know they like the Green Party, so they tick them both. And unless the Green Party somehow found every single person who was going to vote for them before the vote (which seems impossible without time travel) that’s not going to change.

              The only alternative is to simply not run a candidate. Except, not running a candidate in an electorate does tend to reduce the Party Vote in that electorate. So you’re asking the Greens to actually lower their vote for Labour’s benefit.

              How about Labour actually run a fucking competent campaign so that they can oust a solo MP with no principles without needing any help? The fact that Labour couldn’t beat Peter Dunne without the Green Party’s help just shows how much trouble Labour is in.

              • weka

                “So you’re asking the Greens to actually lower their vote for Labour’s benefit.”

                In the case of Ōhārui, they should do it for the long term benefit of the country and the short/mid/long term benefit of the left. Nothing to do with Labour.

                “The fact that Labour couldn’t beat Peter Dunne without the Green Party’s help just shows how much trouble Labour is in.”

                Yeah, nah. Labour are not a major standalone party anymore. They can’t win a seat like that if the vote is split. That’s MMP. The onus is on the GP to do the smart thing, although I agree that Labour should do a concession kind of deal with them somehow so that the GP isn’t just giving up something for nothing.

                • lprent

                  They can’t win a seat like that if the vote is split. That’s MMP.

                  No that is FPP.

                  That was the *only* reason that Nash won in Stuart Napier – the right vote was split.

                  The same happened in Ōhārui. This is going to become more and more of a problem for the left now that there is no equivalent to what Act used to do. Split the right electorate vote.

                  • weka

                    Are you suggesting that Labour could have won Ōhāriu if they’d campaigned harder despite the GP vote? My comment was in response to Disraeli’s suggestion that Labour didn’t try hard enough. My reading of Ōhāriu is that Labour can’t win the seat as long as the left vote is split between Labour and the GP and UF (or Dunne retires).

            • SHG

              Shame on Labour for standing a candidate in Ohariu and splitting the Left vote. If those Labour-candidate votes had gone to the Green candidate Dunne would be gone.

              Oh hold on – sorry, I forgot that it’s the Green Party’s duty to do whatever Labour wants.

              • blue leopard

                Does it have to always be a them versus us argument for the left? (I am assuming you are on the left).

                Surely something could be worked out between the leftwing parties. For example Mana could have backed off Wairiki & Labour could have backed off TTT. The choice would surely be made depending on the popularity of the candidate.

                Of course, this is only a matter for discussion if people voting for left wing parties actually want the left to win and are not simply into their little tribal thing,

                So which is it?

              • weka

                Lolz @ SHG, touche.

                Nevertheless, I doubt that the voters would agree with you otherwise the GP would have gotten more votes.

    • Colonial Viper 16.3

      And agree entirely with your analysis that the Fourth Labour govt has caused a generational problem for the left which we are reaping now.

    • lurgee 16.4

      Good grief. Labour campaigned on a living wage, a Capital Gains Tax, Kiwibuild, alternate economic tools and NZ Inc. It was clearly different from National. It was not rejected because it was insufficiently left. It was rejected because mostly because it did not look like a viable competent alternative government.

    • Molly 16.5

      Pondering last night on the Labour vote, and why I didn’t vote for them.

      For me, despite their historical record of bringing basic needs to all NZers, the current incarnation is not left enough.

      What I might be tempted to vote for? – a new party called the Micheal Joseph Savage party – so that everyone knows exactly where the members and their representatives stand.

  17. cunnliffe crying crocodile tears over the demise of harawira/internet/mana..?..(!)

    ..now i’m starting to get fucken angry…

    cunnliffe:..’we did as well as we could’..(!)

    ..no acceptance of any personal responsibility..?..(!)

    ..owen is accusing him of ‘not owning it’..(and she is correct..)

    ..labour run a braindead first past the post campaign..

    ..doing all they can to hurt the greens/int-mana..at every turn..

    ..then stand looking at the carnage they helped wreak..and going:.


  18. and i think i can predict that we are going to see a wholesale leap in direct-action/civil-disobedience..

    ..it is clear that for now..for those concerned with the environmental/social crises we face…

    ..that the parliamentary-system is not currently providing the/any answers..

    ..direct-action/civil-disobedience will be seen as their only option..

    ..they won’t just be falling silent for the next three yrs..

    ..that much can be guaranteed..

    • The Al1en 18.1

      But your predictions don’t count for much though do they?
      10% mip vote anyone lol

      • I was going to write up a comment on certain far-fetched predictions (Bombers, Phillip, Clem), but honestly, I felt too mean writing it.

        The New Zealand Left and the Republican Party both suffered the same delusions concerning opinion polls.

    • BM 18.2

      Phill we live in a democracy.

      People voted National in big numbers because they like what they’re doing, you have to accept that.

      • locus 18.2.1

        But will the 47% who didn’t vote national or its crony mates quietly sit back for 3 years without investigating the corruption and abuse of power, and without fighting to save New Zealand’s resources before they’re sold off to fund the failed economic policies and tax cut bribes? You bet they won’t

        • Colonial Viper

          I appreciate your sentiment, but its not about the “47 % who didnt vote National”. Its about the almost 2/3 of NZ adults who did not.

      • ghostwhowalksnz 18.2.2

        Phil has only two ways of looking at anything
        being angry and really angry

      • Richard 18.2.3

        Normally I’d agree with that BM, but something just does not feel right to me. This was too perfect a result. If they had a wish list(National) they got it exactly what they wished. Things just aren’t that way around here.

        Hone gone, mana internet no show? , more nat votes in labour strongholds for party vote. It’s frankly not ringing true to my mind.

        Take for instance tokoroa, the biggest poling station was the samoan church on maratai rd, 450-500 people voted the town has a population of 16000 and they are all pretty much struggling. My head cannot believe such a low turnout as when I voted it was quite busy and that was early. Did the weather make them stay at home? It was chucking it down most of the day.

        • ghostwhowalksnz

          Could it be they ‘run out of voting papers’ Afghan style ??

          But I dont think so, its too many people watching.

          My other thought as the % stayed unchanging for most of the night, the NSA has got into the EC computers. ?? Maybe not ?

          The normal result is for national to peak early then fall back up to 5%.

          Didnt happen this time

        • Colonial Viper

          It should be checked out. You can do that easily with a paper based voting system.

      • phillip ure 18.2.4

        a bm..no..labour lost because they utterly failed to talk with/engage/motivate to vote that missing-million they kept on banging on about..

        ..cunnlifes’ promise to only raise benefits by inflation rate..

        ..to do none of what is needed to actually end poverty..

        ..was just the icing on that cake of promised ongoing neglect..

        ..a first past the post-like campaign trying to kill/hurt all other progressive parties..

        ..all the while pointing at national and going;..’we aren’t quite as bad as them!’..

        ..was everything labour didn’t need to do..

        ..and so that missing million didn’t move..didn’t vote for labour..

        ..but i dunno if they have learnt that lesson..

      • Draco T Bastard 18.2.5

        People voted National in big numbers

        No they didn’t. People didn’t vote in big numbers – again.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 18.3

      Phil wants to give the Right a reason to arm the Police.

      • phillip ure 18.3.1


        ..i’m just pointing out what is going to happen..

        ..you are mistaking observation for advocacy..

        ..(and unusual motives you ascribe to me..eh..?..that’s a new one..!..)

    • Disturbed 18.4

      We don’t live in a democracy BM due to rich owning the MSM.

      In a democracy people should have a voice.
      NatZ got rid remember?
      Ch7 and NZTV, RNZ.

      Anger now will flow to these from the oppressed.

      Now we have the dumbed down corporate biased corrupt MSM.

      They are the principled enemy of the people now so expect public anger against this dishonest press to rise in coming months as the corruption charges and economy unravels.

  19. Richard Christie 19

    It’s going to be a rough three years.

    Sheep walking willingly into the abattoir .

    • tc 19.1

      Frogs in a pot who will wonder what that smell is in a year or so ……too late as the preparation and groundwork are laid for full heat now.

  20. millsy 20

    It could have been worse.

    Garth McVicar and Christine Rankin could have quite easily made it to parliament. Then we all could have been in the shit. I think New Zealand dodged a big bullet by keeping the Conservatives out.

    Small mercies indeed. Very small mercies.

  21. One Anonymous Bloke 21

    Will Beverley Wakem survive this election? Potential whistle-blowers will certainly be disheartened, in the knowledge that the criminally vindictive behaviour of the Right has been rewarded.

    Look for more violence: some on the Right will be happy to sit back and enjoy their success. The bullies will be looking for someone to hurt.

    • yeshe 21.1

      She is our almost our last hope … and in light of her comments on Friday, I believe she can be counted upon to not go quietly into the night.

  22. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10525483/Dotcom-brand-poisons-Mana

    Kim Dotcom – “I take full responsibility for this loss tonight because the brand Kim Dotcom is poisoned. This only became apparent to me over the past couple of weeks,”

    He should have read some of my posts. I’ve been saying he’s toxic since the get go.
    Now he gets it, when it’s all too late.

    Fair play to labour for keeping their distance.

  23. shearer is now advocating labour move further to the right..(!)


    ..most of labours’ policies were national-lite..

    ..they promised nothing transformational..

    ..they promised nothing for the childless-poor..

    ..and very little for the rest of the underclass..

    ..and they still haven’t fucken learnt..?

    ..the right in labour see this as the opportunity to drag labour even further to the right..?

    • BM 23.1

      Of course they should, if you want to be a major party you have to appeal to the middle.

      If labour wants to carry on down the current path they will have to accept minor party status.

      That’s the options.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 23.2

      I thought you were a green activist.Who are you to decide what Labours policy is ?

      Thats right , the greens dont want you either.

      Time to start your OWN movement Phil.

      • phillip ure 23.2.1

        sheesh..!..get a grip there..ghosty..

        ..i didn’t realise you had to be a labour party member to comment on these matters..?


        • ghostwhowalksnz

          All parties are compromises, except the party of one you belong to.

          if you comment ‘they havent fucken learnt’, then good as you remember everything and have learnt nothing either

    • infused 23.3

      Shearer was good. he said labour have too many special interest groups. finally someone gets it

      • Chooky 23.3.1

        Shearer is thick…while else does Hooton support him?…Why else is Hooton his Godfather

        Cunliffe was downed by a rightwing media which was relentless

        …we should name the names

        …there should be a list of (dis) honour

        ….we should list and itemise and remember their attacks word- for- word

        …they should be held to account for what follows int he next three years

        We shall remember them

      • Disturbed 23.3.2

        “Shearer was good. he said labour have too many special interest groups. finally someone gets it”

        Infused, And the NatZ don’t?

        • Sookie

          Shearer should have stayed as leader. Sure he doesn’t have the killer instinct but hes the kind of politician you can have a beer with a la Key, and people like that. No one gives a shite who wins political debates or scores points.

    • lurgee 23.4

      Appealing to 35% of the population rather than 25% is hardly lurching into ACT territory.

      Though working out how to be less tactically and strategically useless are probably the first steps.

  24. Enough is Enough 24

    Shearer is gunning for the leadership going on that interview with gower.

    Someone needs to pull him into line quickly.

    • Ant 24.1

      I hope he’s not, If he wanted to be leader he shouldn’t have quit in the first place. If he thought he needed to test his mandate with the members he should have done that then.

      • infused 24.1.1

        he didnt quit

        • lurgee

          He resigned. Unless you’re using some idiosyncratic definition of ‘quit’ he quit.

          I doubt Shearer anticipates being leader again. But nice to see the haters and factionalists are refusing to learn anything from last night. The reason 50% of the votes went to National was NOT because Labour were insufficiently left-wing.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 24.2

      Nothing wrong with having someone else going for the leadership !

      Its not run like junta you know

    • millsy 24.3

      I am not too sure how everything works, but I think Cunliffe should put the leadership up for vote again and allow the direction of the party to be shaped by the members. I previously said that Cunliffe should stay on, but am not too sure now.

      • lprent 24.3.1

        Just finished reading an email from Cunliffe, that is exactly what he said will be happening. Vote to go caucus, affiliates and members.

        • Rosie

          I really hope they vote to keep Cunliffe on. He should not be punished because of the relentless media campaign against him since even before he was elected leader. It is not his fault Labour’s votes were down. Reactive anti Cunliffe voting will be unfair and pointless, like a dog chasing it’s tail.

          Give NZer’s the chance to get to know what a compassionate and intelligent leader he is and he will shine. He will have many opportunities to prove himself in the coming months and years.

          • Marksman33

            If Cunliffe gets rolled, that will be the last time I ever vote Labour, just saying.

          • JAMESMAXTON

            Rosie I agree with you, Cunliffe must stay and fight the next election but I believe he must harden up and be more aggressive, especially in parliament.

            Also the bias from the MSM must be challenged, how the left do that I have no idea but the gloves must come off.

        • weka

          “Vote to go caucus, affiliates and members.”

          Smart move. Will that happen soon?

          • karol

            Andrea Vance has tweeted that the Labour front bench have decided not to do anything about the leadership until after the final vote is in next month.

            • weka

              cheers. I think DC has said the leadership vote should be completed by Christmas. So somewhere between mid Oct and Mid Dec? Should be interesting.

  25. dv 25

    What was the turn out?
    I calculated 69%

    Is that right?

    3m enrolled
    nats got 48%, and 1m thus 2.08 m voted
    2.08/3 = 69%

  26. Well with Hone out of parliament – I’m sure he will find a good job/role out there. The IMP idea didn’t work. Labour are a fucken disgrace imo. I feel so sorry for the Greens because the planet is getting fucked and I thought they could, at least try, to do something.

    john key can say and do anything he likes now.

    For those who have been attempting to create change, nothing has changed – apart from the harping sneering smiling righties like allen who love telling all and sundry about how they are vindicated and pleased with the destruction.

    this is nz

    • The Al1en 26.1

      “the harping sneering smiling righties like allen ”

      I’m not right, as you well know – I’ve said so four times. I am laughing at your gullibility, naievity and wishful thinking though.
      I could pick you off at will, snipe by snipe, because of how you continued to advocate and support the toxic divisive mip alliance, despite all warnings that in part has contributed to the left’s defeat, but I won’t.

      Goes to show how some contributors aren’t as incisive and clued up as they’d have us believe.
      Who’d have thought that? 🙂

    • Chooky 26.2

      @ marty mars….yes what gets me is that some of the people most adept at attacking Dotcom and his message ( which is a valid warning about international commercial corruption, governmental corruption and surveillance and a threat to human rights and democracy), are the most disgusting forms of new comers themselves…eg Paul Henry…who hales from where?

  27. garner gets a special talking utter shite award..

    ..garner wants shearer back..(!)..

    • millsy 27.1

      It may be that having Shearer as leader and Davis as deputy is the way to go for the NZLP. I see no other viable combination.

      • phillip ure 27.1.1

        they promised nothing transformational..

        ..they need to go back and look at what/who they are..

        ..and i of course feel the times call for them to go back to their roots..

        ..and to develop those transformational policies..

        ..to actually campaign to end poverty etc..

        ..to not just be national-lite..

        ..(whereas the paganis and the shearers will argue for labour to go to the right..)

        ..i wonder who will win..?..

      • Chooky 27.1.2

        well at least it would be clearly no longer the Labour Party…which would leave people free from any doubts…and they could be free to vote for the REAL LEFT….Internet /MANA and the Greens

      • ghostwhowalksnz 27.1.3

        Didnt work before.
        Key would have eaten Shearer for breakfast during debates.

        • Ant

          Agreed, It’s important to remember that Shearer (or any Leadership candidate) would have had to weather the same problems as Cunliffe come election year and the election campaign.

      • Draco T Bastard 27.1.4

        Could be – the faster that Labour dies out the better.

  28. Well, trying to be National lighter, dumber and more fratricidal has failed three times in a row now. It won’t work on the fourth go either. I wonder if the Bourbons of the ABC club know that?

    As for Dirty Politics, those sorts of revelations are spell-breakers, not game changers. It showed that Labour had been systematically outmanoeuvred for nearly a decade now. National’s corrupt, but Labour never knew how to outwit them – or cared to. It had nothing credible to offer.

    Still, the spell may be broken and National will have a hard three years IF the main opposition party gets its act together and works harder, with unity, humility (not a virtue its shown much of) inclusiveness – and much smarter.

    • Chooky 28.1

      @rhinocrates…+100 “National will have a hard three years”…

    • lurgee 28.2

      Oh dear. Another sad case of WILD – We’re Insufficiently Leftwing Delusion.

      It doesn’t matter what we want. It matters what New Zealanders want. They don’t want leftwing purity and socialism. They’ve had thirty odd years of selfish individualism as the dominant ideology. Re-aligning a society skewed like that is going to be a long, bitter process. We need to re-colonise the centre and from there persuade people that things are better on the left. Simply yelling “But!! Sweden!!” isn’t going to work.

      Start swallowing the rats.

      • Disturbed 28.2.1

        Bloody hell these right trolls are vicious today.
        Shows they crave kicking dead carcasses.

        Very sick individuals.

        Personally many are awaking to a possibility that the election result was actually tampered with and run by a corrupt Government many are doubtful the results are actually honestly reported.

        • weka

          Sadly, lurgee considers themselves a leftie. They’re one of those poisonous ones though, that can’t help themselves from being incessantly on a downer about the left.

      • Chooky 28.2.2

        @ lurgee…maybe New Zealanders will realise what they have got over the next three years ….as did the Americans over Nixon…after they had voted him back in

      • rhinocrates 28.2.3

        Start swallowing the rats.

        If I do, it won’t be with such lip-smacking schadenfreude. I prefer broccoli.

  29. Rosie 29

    Last night: Shock, disbelief, incomprehension. It seems we are ok with mass surveillance, increasing poverty and inequality, environmental degradation via industrial farming, leaving earthquake victims to suffer, asset sales, and a level of government corruption we’ve never the likes of before.

    This morning reality and sorrow. Still to come, the TPP signed up, the passing of the employment relations amendment act (Richard above will loose his tea break for good now), increasing interest rates (we are seriously as risk of losing our house in the next year) dreary business as usual. I’ve been out of work for 15 months and it’s not looking any different this morning.

    There has to be a way to overcome such fucked- up -ed -ness but right now I don’t what it is or what action is required to change all that is wrong. A couple of inquiries into Dirty Politics and mass surveillance might kick things off.

    • Chooky 29.1

      +100 Rosie…i thought about you and your work with Anderson to oust Dunne all night ….and my champagne was sorrowfully left in the fridge…i was hoping to toast Dunne’s demise…drank tea all night and lost my bets…(however the people I owe money to felt sorry for me and have let me off…lol)

      Everything considered Anderson did well though!…and she should get in next time…when New Zealanders have woken up and Nactional has been well and truly discredited..

      • Rosie 29.1.1

        Kia Ora Chooky. Lol, yes, we did discuss that champagne 🙂 Mine is still in the fridge too.

        I haven’t been able to find the final result for Ohariu but at last count around 96% counted Dunne had won by approx 900 votes from memory. But you know what the kick in the guts is? Over 2000 votes went to the Greens candidate Tane Woodley. This is a repeat of 2011. If those votes had gone to either of the Labour candidates (Chauvel in 20011 or Ginny in 2014) Dunne would have been out. Simple as that. So right at the moment I am feeling a huge amount of anger towards our Green brothers and sisters, which is not what I want to feel as they are comrades.

        If you have time though, do look at a post by Graeme on the Ohariu post. Very thoughtful and offers some insight into why Greens voted for their own candidates instead of strategically voting for Ginny (eg, disengaged from the political process as one theory).

        Ginny and her campaign team went hard out to get the vote and I think she has done really well. She is a perfect fit for Ohariu and a truly fabulously talented woman. 11,000+ were obviously looking forward to being represented by her. Instead however we have Dunne back for his 11th term, doing little except serving himself. It’s a disgrace when his party got 0.2% of the vote.

        PS: Hugs back at you weka 🙂

        • Chooky

          @ Rosie…yes the Greens were reprehensible here…. as well as Labour over Hone Harawira ….and excluding the Maori Party ( before even winning!)

          ….really the Left politicians are not too smart ( gobsmackingly bad in fact ) playing as a team and the strategic MMP game …for New Zealanders as a whole

        • politikiwi

          Virginia Andersen and her team ran a fantastic campaign. I didn’t meet her myself, sadly, but she came door knocking and spent some time with my partner (who’s an impeccable judge of character if I’m anything to go by 😉 ). We didn’t see anything of Peter Dunne.

          I did have a rather unfortunate conversation at an after-work function on Friday night: In spite of my best efforts the subject of politics came up and one of the guys there said he was voting for Dunne because “You do what Johnny tells you.”

          Almost creepy. This infatuation with Key is really strange It’s like the whole country has daddy issues, or something.

          • Clemgeopin

            “he was voting for Dunne because “You do what Johnny tells you.”
            creepy. This infatuation with Key is really strange It’s like the whole country has daddy issues, or something.’

            I had at least three similar experiences from Nat supporting imbeciles (in my opinion) among my acquaintances.

            Two of them are sort of infatuated or trusting of key and staunch for him, (not because of party policies, as far as I know).

            One older lady gave her vote to National because, she said, her ex husband, who she dislikes bitterly, used to always vote Labour! Unbelievable, but absolutely true!

            • Colonial Viper

              Remember National operate using a very corporate approach – the senior guy with the authority gives the instructions, and its up to everyone else to follow. A balance of authoritarians and authoritarian followers. A very different culture than that on the Left.

  30. hoom 30

    So depressing.

    All that proven lying, corruption, incompetence, conniving with the media, unpopular policies and yet still they get a ‘stronger’ mandate.

    Really had expected a big turnout but it seems that instead of people turning up to get rid of those bastards, people stayed home even more than last time.

    Fundamentally fuck Labour for not understanding MMP, not doing deals & concentrating on Electorate votes.
    Especially TTT, like Hone & Laila or not it cost the left 2 strong voices and made them look ridiculous with Maori, Act & National more happy at the Labour victory than Labour.
    Yet again Act wins Epsom by a majority smaller than the electorate vote of Green & Labour candidates who both publically stated they were going for electorate votes.

    One tiny victory is that Cons were kept out but with an easy majority for Nats its largely irrelevant.

    • Chooky 30.1

      @hoom…that was a disgrace …”Maori, Act & National more happy at the Labour victory than Labour”!

      …there are lessons to be learned there! ( is the Labour Party strategically dumb?…or just removed from reality?…this was war …not a gentleman’s game of playing nicely and one-upmanship against the true left…no Brownie points to anyone here for ganging up against Hone Harawira and winning)

      • marty mars 30.1.1

        The fact is that whether stupid or not – labour didn’t like Hone or Mana. And after the IMP came along they liked them even less – why didn’t they like him? cunliffe said it last night – they think labour looks after tangata whenua best, they wanted the seats and they got them – it was foolish to believe or trust in anything other than what labour said and have now done.

        • The Al1en

          “labour didn’t like Hone or Mana. And after the IMP came along they liked them even less – why didn’t they like him?”

          “cunliffe said it last night – they think labour looks after tangata whenua best”

          The answer doesn’t follow the question.
          Simple answer is labour were brand protecting themselves because mip were so toxic, which is obviously true as hone couldn’t even sway his own people.

          Honestly mars, introspective is the only way you’ll find the truth. Lashing out at others will do no good to your unrepresented cause. Look at the failings others have seen and veered away from and wonder why.

          • marty mars

            “The answer doesn’t follow the question.”

            try reading and learning about the history of this country you have decided to live in and then come back and I’ll discuss it with you but until then best you stick to supporting the gnats and your hero the key

            • The Al1en

              Can you answer in English and help me out?

              You wrote labour hates hh, and gave because they look after the maori seats better as your reason. That doesn’t make sense, so try again.

              If you want to say it’s because he’s a maori, as I suspect you do from the tone of your reply, then do so, but Kelvin had the backing from the leadership to win the seat, so it may just be more hollow, empty words cried into your morning coffee.

              I don’t think labour are racist, and 6 of the 7 maori seats appear to agree.

              • you don’t have enough knowledge, understanding or context to get it – stick to lauding key, you do have good skills for that.

                plus you don’t give a fuck what I think we both know that – get your jollies with someone else, you are getting creepy.

                • The Al1en

                  If you can’t adequately answer your own question about hone and labour without resorting to lying about me, then I’ll put it down as all a bit too soon for you.
                  Maybe when you’re less emotional and politically distraught.

                  • sorry sar!

                    just fuck off and do some reading then I’ll answer your already answered dim question

                    give it a go it will help break down your proud straight walls

                    • The Al1en

                      Don’t get shitty,
                      Because they look after the maori seats better isn’t a reason for labour to dislike hone.

                      So in common sense English, answering your own somewhat whining query, why do you think labour don’t like hone or mana?

                    • weka

                      can you two please give the nasty shit a rest?

                    • Goddess give me strength

                      marty said “labour didn’t like Hone or Mana. And after the IMP came along they liked them even less – why didn’t they like him? cunliffe said it last night – they think labour looks after tangata whenua best…”

                      allen said “You wrote labour hates hh, and gave because they look after the maori seats better as your reason.”

                      that is why you are such a great gnat supporter allen – you change words and meanings to suit yourself.

                      so to really make it easier for you

                      I didn’t say labour HATES Hone at all

                      I didn’t say that labour look after the maori seats better as my reason

                      do. you. get. it. yet???

                    • The Al1en

                      Open mike 21/09/2014

                      “So in common sense English, answering your own somewhat whining query, why do you think labour don’t like hone or mana?”

                      Open mike 21/09/2014

                      “labour didn’t like Hone or Mana. And after the IMP came along they liked them even less – why didn’t they like him? cunliffe said it last night – they think labour looks after tangata whenua best, they wanted the seats and they got them”

                      Happy for you to amend and/or clarify.

                    • “cunliffe said it last night – they think labour looks after tangata whenua best”

                      the key bit is “they think”

                    • The Al1en

                      That still doesn’t reconcile with the question you posed, but I guess it’s the best I’m going to get.

              • Chooky

                @ The Allen ….never- the- less Labour took one of the biggest hits in the last 100 years and many Maori are also Pakeha …and choose NOT to be on the Maori roll ….which begs the question…where did the general roll Maori and Pakeha Labour vote go?…did they vote at all?…did the Labour Party dis-inspire them with their competition with Int Mana ?

                ….i suspect many ( like my son) were disgusted with Labour Party tactics which were not the tactics of an inclusive Left ….but were clearly in accord with Nactional, NZF and the Maori Party ….to exclude Int /Mana from government

                This is a disgrace….because IntMana have been the conscience of New Zealand…and the true voice of New Zealand Labour

  31. Adrian 31

    The NZ population at the end of 2011 was 4,3811,100, today it is 4,528,574 a difference of 147,474.
    About 2/3rds of the population is eligible to vote, hence 100,000 more voters than 3 years ago.
    Last week the dipstick in charge if enrolment proudly claimed that they had 20,000 more on the roll than 2011.
    That’s a massive failure, 80,000 down on target.
    Which minister was in charge of enrolment?
    Enough said.
    Well done Judith, can we help you back to your seat.

  32. Adrian 32

    Sorry, 4,381,100.

  33. vto 33

    That result sucks.

    All I can put it down to is the same sort of mass thinking and fervour that saw H1tler elected in a landslide in the 1930’s.

    The people do not always vote correctly for themselves or their country.

    Imo this is what has happened.

    and now I give up

    • Chooky 33.1

      @vto…dont give up!….the msm must be held to account for this..

      • chris73 33.1.1

        As Mike Moore said: The people are always right

        • Chooky

          Mike Moore was always right…and the Nacts loved him

        • vto

          “As Mike Moore said: The people are always right”

          That is entirely the point chris73 – like the german people got it right in the 1930s.

          • chris73

            You lefties are very sad people, but at least it gives me the opportunity to say I predicted this


            I now fully expect power company shares to go up

            • sabine

              and electricity prices …cause that profit needs to come from somewhere.

              OH i understand, you own shares. Oh well, I hope you own enough shares to eventually pay for heating your house.

    • Colonial Viper 33.2

      “The people do not always vote correctly for themselves or their country.”

      Not voting at all is the issue. The problem boils down to 100,000 left wing voters staying at home. For 2 whole weeks. Massive advanced voting by National supporters tho.

      • weka 33.2.1

        +1. For me this is the thing that stands out the most. Depite efforts from Labour, GP, and IMP to get out the vote, it’s nearly as low as last time. I don’t know what to make of that yet.

    • Higherstandard 33.3


  34. chris73 34

    It was my birthday last weekend but unfortunately got stuck by the flu so wasn’t much of a weekend but this, this is a result I didn’t think was going to happen. I always thought National would win but to win so emphatically I thought it would be closer

    But what a great result for all of NZ, IMP gone, Harawira gone and Harre gone again as thats what happens when people vote with their heads and not their hearts, Conservatives gone (though at 4% its a base other parties can only dream on) WinstonFirst impotent, Greens down and Labour absolutely shellacked (is this their worse result since the 1920s?)

    National has a mandate to do what it wants, when it wants but it won’t (mores the pity) as its truly moved to the center

    Still maybe the RMA will get sorted out this time

    48% of the vote

    Just remembered that after Collins was sacked share prices in the power companies I own went up, I’m thinking they’re gonna jump big time now 🙂

  35. Granted 35

    I guess Cunliffe will need to seek more dollars for his secret trust account to fight off the wannabes.

    Who is available that is better than him? I am not a fan of Cunliffe but give him more time and he will get better. All other potential leaders will start from a position way behind Cunliffe. Experience counts.

  36. Adrian 36

    Better numbers, ( I’m not good at this,I’m only a peasant ) .
    3,391,100 eligible to vote, only 3,096,247 enrolled.
    2,367,150 voted, including 250,000 (roughly)specials yet to be counted.
    That’s 69.8% of eligible or 76.45% of enrolled.
    Where’s the missing 300,000, Judith.

    • RedBaronCV 36.1

      Time for the OIA’s as to how many people have been dropped off the role and the criteria for doing so. Round Wellington young people dropped off the roll for no good reason that I could see.

  37. ma rohemo 37

    Does Jason Ede think it is safe to come out of hiding now?

    • ghostwhowalksnz 37.1

      No one is going to be touching the Dirty politics story for a long while.

      meanwhile business as usual for national though

      • Colonial Viper 37.1.1

        Which would be a mistake. Because dirty politics describes a well organised machine which chews up and spits out people on the Left, community leaders, MPs and candidates, and you want to leave National running it unhindered against us for 3 more years??? Thanks for the famous left wing solidarity.

  38. just saying 38

    The right-wing majority in the Labour caucus and management won.
    Time for a rebranding exercise for the next election.
    I suggest “New Labour”

    For the rest of us, it’s time to put a shovel through the head of that zombie party once and for all.

  39. GRiM 39

    a couple of points about labour policy,
    what I don’t like on a personal basis, even though it could/would be good for the country at large….
    1) compulsory kiwi saver, when all the people struggling can’t afford it, turns poor off.

    2) CGT, leave it for a second term if at all, the only chance that individuals have to actually step up from wage earners to investors is buying a second house, sure it hits speculators but it also kills wage earners dreams of becoming financially independent.

    Middle income are becoming low income, labour talk about the poor but fail to think like the poor.

    Having said all that, I would call for a recount, something stinks, rigged and corrupt media. Cunnliffe did good, internet Mana did good, media were traitors to NZ, it’s not over.

    • Colonial Viper 39.1

      Good comment. And the fucking retirement age, leave it alone Labour, you wannabe orthodox economists.

    • Lanthanide 39.2

      “1) compulsory kiwi saver, when all the people struggling can’t afford it, turns poor off.”

      They never got the detail out on how it would actually work.

      For those not currently in Kiwisaver, their contributions would start at 1% and climb by 1% each year. For those on the minimum wage, the boost to $15 and then $16.25 would completely swamp this so they wouldn’t see it.

      For those slightly above the minimum wage, hopefully the growth in the economy and Labour’s other policies, Best Start paying $60/week and NZPower reducing annual bills by $200-300 would make up for it as well.

      • politikiwi 39.2.1

        It’s too complicated for most people though. This and the CGT are good policies but they weren’t “sold” well. People clearly prefer vacant aspiration over detailed policy, which is why National always talk about the details of other people’s policies, but not their own,

  40. bad politics 40

    “Nigh night whanau. Don’t feel too stink. You remember at the end of Empire Strikes Back when the rebels were crushed and Han Solo was all frozen in that carbonite shit and C3PO was in pieces and Luke got his hand chopped off by his dad and was still trying to pash his sister? Well that was pretty bleak, right? Can you imagine a more stressful evening for a young man? To find out the dude that just hacked your hand off is your dad??! It’s too much to bear.

    Well, you know what Luke and those rebels did? They regrouped at Skywalker Ranch and they got George Lucas to bankroll another movie where they got to make a positive change! And it worked! And Luke got to see his dad’s face and also gained a sister. So let’s all be optimistic and think about how to rescue Han Solo from Jabba and meet some furry dwarves and write the end we want!

    I’m feeling surprisingly upbeat and positive about “Return of the Poor People”. Mauri ora!” – Taika Waititi

  41. Clemgeopin 41

    This election will go down in our history as the triumph of evil over good.

  42. Tautoko Viper 42

    There is another way of looking at all this.
    Karma : Maybe JK has to have more to lose first before things start unravelling for him. Think of this! His demise from Parliament could be much more ignominious than simply losing an election.

  43. Draco T Bastard 43

    Everyone needs to watch this and think about what he says about the elites. It is about the path we are on with National and Labour in charge.

    • weka 43.1

      Problem is, there is too big a gap between that and where we are now as a country. Solutions to that problem? After we get over our shock, I think we’re in for some pretty interesting conversations.

    • Chooky 43.2

      DTB +100 …Jared Diamond ‘Why do Societies Collapse?’ very interesting!….and agree about elites and short term advantage and thinking…with dire consequences

      …well worth watching and thinking about today

      • aerobubble 43.2.1

        Given the choice in not knowing whether what Labour was offering and what Key was offering, the voters stayed with the lesser of the unknowns.

        Hager has never unseated a sitting governing party. Not corngate, not hollow men, not dirty politics. Hager’s role is to create noise and stymie the election. He turned voters off Brash, he turn Clark into a victim and defender of big farming, he and Dotcom drown out the election with the fog of nonsense.

        And here’s the rub, why you should be angry. Robinson, being interviewed, could not get a word in edgeways as Joyce just kept interjecting. Key, did the same, English also, they all knew they needed to sshut out the democratic process with nonsense.

        Cunliffe did not ask Hager, or Dotcom to the party. Hone ask Dotcom and hopefully he is gone.

        So lets be clear about what just happened.

        Dirty John won the dirtiest, most distracting, most media mediocre, election ever.
        He won because he wouldn’t front, he won because the media wanted to be the election rather than cover it. He won because a fat German who Key let into the country wanted to stay in the country, and will now Key has won. He won because Hager wanted to sell books and make money, again. But he did not win because he offered NZ anything, he did not have to offer anything.

        Key lost because he wasn’t why NZ voted for him.

      • Rose 43.2.2

        DTB +1 Well worth watching.

  44. Weepus beard 45

    I managed to back two losers on the night. The Labour Party and Carol Beaumont.

    Not saying Carol is a loser as such, just that she out of parliament now.

    • Chooky 45.1

      my Party vote for Internet/ Mana was NOT even counted at all ….(thanks Labour and Nact and NZF and Maori party!…)

      …but at least I voted with a clear conscience for some fantastic Left activists who have fought for the poorest New Zealanders and youth ( once upon a time Labour’s core constituency) ….and for social justice, anti- corruption and New Zealand sovereignty and democracy

      ….my local vote was counted at least ….for a very good Green activist

      • The Al1en 45.1.1

        “my Party vote for Internet/ Mana was not even counted at all ….(thanks Labour and Nact and NZF and Maori party!…)”

        Buyers remorse?
        Surely you can’t blame the other parties for mip not appealing to more than 1% of voters.

        • Chooky

          no remorse over my vote …just clarification about where Labour and NZF stand on matters of principle and in the strategic scheme of things ( no surprises over Nactional …and a little surprised over the Maori Party).

  45. weka 46

    Jono Aidney ‏@jonoaidney 8 mins
    “@Aethylred: If non-voters were not represented in Parliment, there would be about 40 empty seats.”

  46. The worst policy to come in the next three years?

    For me, probably the tpp and the loss of sovereignty that comes with.

    • Chooky 47.1

      why dont I believe you? ( Internet/ MANA were at the forefront of warnings about TPP and loss of sovereignty )

      • The Al1en 47.1.1

        I don’t know why don’t believe me, but then you did vote for a bunch of nothing, so I’m picking a fault your end, not mine.

        • Chooky

          so Internet /Mana is a “bunch of nothing”?

          ….so Hone Harawira, Laila Harre, Annette Sykes and John Minto ( who were at the vanguard of warnings about TPP and threats to New Zealand sovereignty and corruption and surveillance on New Zealanders) …and who stood above all for social justice ….are a “bunch of nothing” ?

          phillip ure and marty mars are correct about where you stand …

          • weka

            dnftt 🙂

          • chris73

            A bunch of money grubbing sell outs might be more accurate except for Sue Bradford of course…I guess some people really do have principles that arn’t for sale

          • The Al1en

            “so Internet /Mana is a “bunch of nothing”?”

            Your votes added up to a bunch of nothing. No mps, no representation in parliament = A bunch of nothing.

            “phillip ure and marty mars are correct about where you stand …”

            No they’re not. One is okayish, but hurting right now, which I do get.
            The other a bit of a cock with anger issues and comprehension failings.
            That you would side that way is all part of the ride.

            I understand nobody likes being proved wrong, especially by me, but there it is.
            Just like I’m a green/red, with genuine counted votes, and not even close to being a tory.

  47. The whole left have a lot of thinking to do.

    We were wrong on so many counts – for me personally, my faith in people is shattered somewhat, my faith in trying to bring change from within the system is shattered majorly. I don’t want to vote anymore, I don’t want to debate anymore.

    I’m going to hide out in my little corner of this country, I’m going to be close to my children and wife, I’m going to upskill myself and others and I’m going to watch as the 1 million voters who gave key their vote slowly but surely peel away – they won’t be welcome near me though – they can fuck off and survive by themselves or not (that is people like you allen).

    ka kite ano standardistas – catch you on the other side

    • The Al1en 48.1

      “the 1 million voters who gave key their vote slowly but surely peel away – they won’t be welcome near me though – they can fuck off and survive by themselves or not (that is people like you allen).”

      Who? That deaf dumb and blind kid, sure plays the mean pin ball.

    • weka 48.2

      marty, it’s grief and it will pass. Please don’t give up hope just yet, or when you do know that it’s not the end. Take good care of yourself and spend lots of time with those you love and places that lift your spirit.

      (and stay away from the trole 😉 he’s just going to wind you up and make you feel more shit).

      • The Al1en 48.2.1

        Get out with the trole rubbish, weka, you should be better than that. Mip divs have been pushing their shit up hill for months, shouting down opposition and stifling debate and have been proved to be shockers at guessing the state of play.
        Only natural and fair that after being shouted down by the vocal minority (that’s you mips) I get a shot or two in at your open goal.

        Deal or don’t, but the lies, you should ditch them. Even they won’t help you now.

        • weka

          You are entitled to your political opinions obviously. I’m talking about your behaviour. I’ve had conversations with you on other topcis so I know you are capable of disgreeing with people and still being civil and reasonable. On this one topic though, you turn into something nasty and you have no reasonableness. Your debate is all about being right at all costs and using misdirection to shut the conversation down or put down the person you are talking to who would otherwise be a political ally. Because of that there is nothing to be learned and no point in having the conversation. It’s also horrible to be around. Today I am naming that because it’s bullshit on this day of all days.

          In addition to that you come across today as gloating. I don’t know if you are aware of that, or intend to, but that’s how it comes across. Again, today of all days, that’s just fucked up.

          I now fully expect some ad hominems and for you to defend yourself against what I have said about your actions at all costs and for there to be no self-reflection or consideration. Have at it mate, but I will keep naming you as a trole and asking them to not feed you.

          • Chooky

            +100 weka…well said!

          • The Al1en

            I’ve not partaken in any swearing or insulting conversation. I’m good on that score. Had a bit in return, but that’s okay, I expected it to be fair.
            I have rubbed some noses in it, so what? The mip schillers deserve it for wasting (in my opinion) votes and getting it so very wrong.
            Nothing wrong with a bit of I told you so when it’s warranted.

            You earn it, you keep it. Isn’t that the way we do it?

            • weka

              not the way I do it, but says heaps about you.

              “The mip schillers deserve it”

              Don’t have to use a swear word to be insulting. Like I said, have at it mate, and I will keep nmaing the bullshit in your actions.

              • The Al1en

                You’re going to do it whatever happens, so no biggie.

                No, not the way you’d do it, but we are all unique, and it’s the mix ‘n match that makes us stronger.
                I’ve not incurred the wrath of admin, I reckon, because I’ve been quite tame about it by comparison, and certainly not as pro-active or inflammatory as those slagging off labour and the greens on a daily basis for the past few weeks and months for example.

                So I don’t got you on team Al1en. Well I promise I won’t walk out before conceding defeat like a bad loser. 😉

                • “..team Al1en…”

                  ..first belly-laugh of the day…

                  ..it’s a bit like ‘team-dunne’..

                  ..or ‘team seymour’..

                  ..more an exercise in onanism…

                  • The Al1en

                    I chuckled when I wrote it, so I knew it was a keeper.

                    “..more an exercise in onanism…”

                    I’m not sporty these days. I have a stunt double.

          • Murray Olsen

            Thanks weka. I always seem to get down to reading this blog after the arguments, so I don’t need to say what you have already.

            Now isn’t the time to be abusing each other. We need to keep our eyes on the prize – a society that doesn’t shit on people. Shitting on each other won’t get us any closer.

  48. weka 49

    Giovanni Tiso ‏@gtiso 2 hrs
    Speaking of confounding predictions: how many had Kim Dotcom pegged as far and away the most honest and gracious person to speak in defeat?

    Doesn’t surprise me. He has a massive ego that causes problems but he strikes me as someone with heart and a degree of emotional intelligence too.

    • Chooky 49.1

      …some very intelligent people often have a “massive ego”…but it is not necessarily destructive of other people…and as you say in actual fact also have “heart and …. emotional intelligence”….i would also put Robert Amsterdam ( Dotcom’s lawyer) in this category….and Glen Greenwald …and Edward Snowden …and Julian Assange

      ….they work for the higher good of society ( not just themselves) …and in warning society run great risks to themselves

      • weka 49.1.1

        If you want me to make sense of that you will have to say it again in a way that I can cognitively cope with, sorry.

        • Chooky

          cant be bothered

          • weka

            fair enough, but please don’t talk to me in ways that I find very difficult to understand.

            • Chooky

              lol….@ weka…do you have some sort of disability?…i always did think you had somewhat of a straight and narrow vision…and you would run around and around a manuka bush chasing your tail if it suited you…but I believe you are a good if somewhat singular soul

              • weka

                I do in fact have some sort of disability, which is why I have asked a number of times about this issue.

                • Chooky

                  well my commiserations weka…( is your ‘disability’ similar to Rhinocrates’?)……but you are a clever birdie…(and I am still not going to try and unravel what i said for you …because it is in plain English)…just use your imagination, give Chooky the benefit of any doubt and see if you get the general gist ( remember think ‘universal’ and not ‘particulars’)

                  • weka

                    You can ignore by disability, despite me having asked you to speak in a way that I can understand more easily or not talk to me. I can’t do anything about that. But it does make a mockery of your progressive politics.

                    • Chooky

                      how can i ignore your ‘disability’ if i dont know what it is dear Weka?

                      …i asked you but you would not tell me ( are you the same as Rhinocrates?)…you are certainly not dumb…in fact sometimes a bit brilliant imo…(speaking as a dumb chooky)….so come clean you naughty bird…and in fact if you cant understand me….where does that leave YOUR “progressive politics”?

                      [lprent: You are entering badgering territory where I start to notice it. Desist. ]

    • joe90 49.2


      Giovanni Tiso @gtiso · 28m

      Imagine: an immigrant millionaire forms a new, hopeful fringe party and the left crumbles. What a rock-solid left that must have been!

      • weka 49.2.1

        +1. KDC is way to easy a target. The line that he is the problem is the same line that says don’t associate yourself with Hawawira/Mana because you will scare too many people. If the left is a place where only middle NZ get to have say, then the left can go get fucked.

  49. greywarbler 50

    Thank you to all the post writers here today with sensible hopeful messages about the election results and the way forward. I need this. I feel so bruised yet numb at the disgusting low results for the left. I don’t dare to think too hard about this win and its implications for Kiwis.

    I now despise a large proportion of the voters and because I am firmly fixed in the middle of urban NZ and a comfortably off whanau, mainly pakeha, it limits my affection and respect for some family members, and also conversation topics.

    I am aware of the different levels of society and where they are coming from as a result of late university study as a mature student doing social policy. Before, I was only partially informed and had no formal and little informal education since the 1960’s.
    I am one of many in that situation. I think I understand how many people became enamoured of the neo lib approach that Nats have so avidly embraced, and why many middle class would hold to present policies. It is uncomfortable peeling off the bandages over the eyes if you are then gazing on a taxing reality.

    Actually I do not think NZrs have enough understanding of our present level of civilisation and knowledge to make informed decisions about what should be done in the country. Until there is more thinking, of the informed, critical analysis type, we will get these simplistic-seeking, emotional, groupthink results. Which will lead us as a country into a client state for the capitalists of the world, a rentier economy and a limited, narrow service-based employment scene with continuing schism between income levels.

    Like any other similar politico-economic system in the world. Could this description apply to Dickens’ Britain? Our forebears took a dangerous three to six month voyage costing all they had in some cases, to get free of this vicious misuse of economic disadvantage by the powerful. Also think India, of which parts have finessed this approach of dehumanising large groups of their people, instead, raising the status of cows.

    • Chooky 50.1

      +100 greywarbler ….good thoughts!…and I share your disappointment!

      …you did ask me once what i would recommend drinking after the Election result ….well Aunty Chooky recommends staying sober for quite some time…lots of sunshine, walks, gardening and eating well and meditation and supporting good friends ( personally i will be trying to steer clear of any Nacts)

      • chris73 50.1.1

        Good luck with that 48% of the voting public is Nact, we’re everywhere!

      • greywarbler 50.1.2

        @ Chooky 50.1
        Hi. Good advice. I bought some Old Mout Pear Cider but didn’t even drink that. I dragged myself off to bed and put it all aside while I had a good sleep. Which is a help.

        I did wonder if it would all be up in the air waiting for Winston on the night, even for some days, but had to stop thinking about it fairly soon in after the results started firming and people were wondering if it was advance votes and the big ones from the urbans would change it all. Too little.

        So hi and let’s have good ideas on here towards next election. I hope someone who is a reliable techhead with their political leanings towards transparency and ethics comes on board for Lynn. And by next election I hope our favoured parties will have bought some new clothes. Their present ones are a bit worn and down at heel.

  50. chris73 51

    Just to lighten the mood as I know some of you are feeling very sad (some of us are feeling great however!) theres this little masterpiece

    Some of you have seen some of you won’t have but its very amusing


    • greywarbler 51.1

      @ chris 73 51
      Thanks for that Jack Buchanan clip, mentioned on Radionz this morning. Really good
      You have done a real public service putting that up. I hope it doesn’t go against your right wing money-grubbing vein and you want money or it.

      • chris73 51.1.1

        The series is funny and if some people find it as funny as I did then thats payment enough 🙂

  51. Here is my take on the Kim Dotcom’s involvement and why National could win after such an amazing expose of the their structural corruption.

    An open letter to Kim Dotcom.

    • Chooky 52.1

      @ travellerev +100

      thanks for that tribute to Dotcom and Hone and IntMana….it moved me to tears

    • weka 52.2

      aside, the phrase is ‘tauiwi’, and it means other than the iwi of the person who is speaking (not necessarily a foreigner). In a more general sense it can also mean non-Māori.

    • brian 52.3

      @ travellerev +100

      Excellent tribute.

      Until a few minutes ago I thought there may be a future for Cunliffe.

      But Cunliffe begs to differ with the tribute: “Dotcom’s action’s ‘reprehensible’ ” says Cunliffe
      refer NZ Herald

      With that, Cunliffe has to go.
      There is no place for a leader who is going to spend all of his time justifying everything he has done, and blaming everybody else. He will inevitably end up doing the same thing. A fresh approach is the only way. I agree with Cunliffe that the leader should be chosen before Christmas.

      • Draco T Bastard 52.3.1

        Was just thinking of this bit in Travellerev’s letter:

        You, by teaming up with people like Hone Harrawira and John Minto, single handedly scared the shit out of the ruling elite and their status quo and you should not be surprised that this came with a heavy backlash.

        And was thinking that was also the reason that Labour slammed the door in Hone’s and KDC’s faces.

    • karol 52.4

      I really think the NZ left can do without KDC’s celebrity individualism. He did some positive things, especially bringing Snowden (by video) and Greenwald to NZ. But he let his ego get the better of him on making the IP all about him. Ultimately, left politics, and flax roots left wing movement/s can do without his grandstanding.

      • brian 52.4.1

        I’ll not disagree with what you say. KDC has realised the same thing (too late) and apologised to the Mana Party. It’s a hard apology to make to admit that your own name is “poisoned” But it was sincere. Honest reflection.

        But does he owe any apology to Cunliffe and Labour? I think not. KDC name was poisoned by Dirty John and Winnie…and then irretrievably by Cunliffe’s willingness to collude with Dirty John …. and with this collusion there was no way out.

        I will stay with the positive things that KDC did that you have mentioned, because I think those things are extremely important to the future of our democracy, that even overshadow the election result. For Cunliffe to shoot his mouth off calling KDC reprehensible is just too much to take. Not all Cunliffe did was bad, but there must be some mirror time.

        What was really SO bad, Mr Cunliffe, in having both Hone and Laila in Parliament? Two dedicated people caring about the very issues that should have concerned Labour. And who could have been in Parliament, without affecting the number of seats that Labour has.

        • karol

          Labour needs to look at its own failings to explain their defeat.

          I would have been very happy to have Hone and Laila in the House. But that could have been achieved without bringing more fragmentation and distraction from KDC starting his own party. KDC let his own ego drive him with that. IMP didn’t achieve anything politically.

          And, ultimately I reckon Mana would have done better going it alone. It would have been better for KDC to get behind Mana with the money and maybe technological support, while KDC remained fairly low profile. He made it seem like he was standing for parliament.

          I don’t understand why Harre agreed to lead the IP. I reckon she also would have achieved more by putting her efforts into Mana. Was it just her ego being attracted to being gifted party leadership? To me, that is not what left values are about. It’s about an egalitarian and collaborative approach – putting aside ego, and maybe taking on lesser roles to achieve the desired outcome.

          I really liked a lot about what Mana was trying to do. It had a long term aim of building a movement.

          I was pretty gutted about the advent of the whole KDC-IMP thing, but mostly kept quiet about it during the election. The left didn’t need any more internal conflict at that stage. Now is time to start building on truly left wing values. KDC is just a bit player with regard to that.

          • phillip ure

            i disagree..

            ..and willie jackson pointed out something nobody else has..

            ..that the idea of int/mana was a good one..

            ..and the polls reaching 4% were proof of that..

            ..then it all turned to shit..(and yes..corkery burning off the media was a turning point..of sorts..)

            ..and jackson is the only one (apart from me) who has pointed out what a useless campaign was run by int/mana..

            ..it was nothing/nowhere..

            ..it wasn’t coherent..

            ..there was no presence..

            ..a lousy selling of the (often good) policies..

            ..and yes..too much dotcom..(as he admitted..)

            ..it was a new benchmark-setting case of over-promise/under-delivery..

            ..harawira was a version of where’s wally?..in his lack of spark/fire..(esp. compared to that shown in the run-up to the campaign/int-mana early days..wha’ happened..?)

            ..there was no selling of the f.t.t. as the means to pay to end poverty..(as just one example of those fails..)

            ..i repeat..the original int/mana idea/concept was a good one..

            ..the failures were in the delivery..(which the relentless drop in the polls from that 4% high confirmed..)

            ..i wd like to hear from the strategists who oversaw/drove that clusterfuck..

            .what were they thinking..?

            ..were they thinking at all..?

            ..were there any strategists..?

            ..the lack of cohesion of that campaign makes me think not..

            ..and if there were..they should not be allowed to just whistle their way out of the room..pointing at dotcom on the way..

          • chris73

            I don’t understand why Harre agreed to lead the IP

            – 130 grand for doing sfa is a compelling arguement

            • Tracey

              Dunne takes much much more for much much less

              • chris73

                Except that Dunne is an elected member of parliament and will soon be a minister whereas Laila Harre is a failed mp (how many parties is that shes tanked now?)

          • Tracey

            She was already working on invigorating the voters through her paid work for the Greens. I suspect she thought that kdc resources could really make a diffeence to the young vote.

            I dont agree with those who say she did it for the money.

            • karol

              I don;t think she did it for the money. Sure, she was very much into engaging disengaged voters.

              I think there was a lot of ego in her decision.

              • Tracey

                I would be surprised if ego drove her decision given what I know of her. My cousin is friends with her and he and i had a long and quiet chat about her three weeks ago.

                • karol

                  Well, I can only go by what I see in the public sphere, and that’s what it seems like to me.

                  I have no inside info. But personal relationships can just as easily be a source of bias as of knowledge.

                  And for all Harre’s commitment and background for getting out the vote, joining the IP to do it, just didn’t work. This election was near record low turnout.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Harre has a high level of sincerity and ability. When it comes to advocating for the working class and underclass, how in touch she is with the suffering going on in NZ homes at the moment, and for getting her point across on TV and mass media, she has very few peers indeed.

                    Blaming Harre’s leadership of the Internet Party – a brand new political party putting together a team and infrastructure from scratch – for the record low voter turnout is quite unfair IMO.

                    • karol

                      I’m not blaming the IP or Harre for the low voter turn out. I’m saying they were not able to turn that around.

                      Looking at the near record low turnout this election, I think the Lusk plan of two track strategy had a big impact in recent years.
                      Turning that around will take time, and the longer term building of trust through relationships with diverse communities. A few rock-star events and some nifty digital aps over the short term would not achieve that.

                      I’m saying there was no need for the IP to be developed. It just created more fragmentation across the left, and brought with it KDC’s celebrity style individualism, his own brand of personalised attack politics, and some distraction.

                      I don’t think any party put together a couple of months before an election will achieve that much, let alone the desired aim of engaging the disengaged non-voters.

                      I reckon both Harre and KDC would have done better to commit to working with an established party. I don’t understand why they just didn’t support the Mana Party or the Green Party. Both have been working to develop trust and various kinds of links and relationships with the community.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I’m saying there was no need for the IP to be developed.

                      Yes there was, and is, and that is simply because none of the other parties are doing what needs to be done and that includes Mana.

                    • Chooky

                      CV +100…spot on as usual! Laila Harre is formidable in her ability and her integrity and her commitment to youth and those least advantaged in New Zealand …anyone who hints otherwise and at a spurious egoism or financial greed motivation….should look in the mirror themselves..it is contemptible

                      Internet/ Mana was a lightning rod for a vicious right wing media attack….an ethically rudderless Labour put up Kelvin Davis to down Harawira …(and Nactional, NZF and Maori Party put in the boot to ensure Harawira didnt stand a chance)

                      ….SHAME on them all!…they let New Zealanders down

                    • weka

                      “I’m not blaming the IP or Harre for the low voter turn out. I’m saying they were not able to turn that around.”

                      I don’t think that was their responsibility, and let’s remember that Labour and the Greens were also trying to get the vote out.

                      Do we know why the IMP vote was so low? Was it because Māori voters took their Mana vote elsewhere? Has anyone looked at the IMP vote by electorate or booth?

                      KDC, when he started the IP, I don’t think he particularly left wing politics, that came later, so it’s not like he could have just supported Mana or the GP.

                      Harre I think needed space for her voice and presence to be appreciated. I don’t know why she left her job at the GP, or why she didn’t stand for them, but I think her fronting the IMP has been incredibly important for reaching people that neither Mana nor the GP were reaching. There’s a whole new discourse on the table now, and I hope they keep that up.

                      Not sure that Harre’s ego was a big factor in going with the IP, but I do think that she got carried away in the end. Her comment a few days before the election about NZ giving asylum to Snowden made me wince, like she had lost perspective. I saw this with the GP in one of the earlier elections when they had been polling well and run a campaign that left many on a high and then they didn’t do that well on the day. Humbling and I think they learnt from it. I think the IP will too. KDC certainly impressed me today with his mea culpa.

                    • karol

                      weka, I was talking about voter turnout because that was one of the main reasons given for Harre leaving the Greens and going with IP.

                      I don’t think any party formed so close to an election is going to achieve much, and I don’t think it was any help to the left.

                      However, the bigger problem was Labour also had not built a trusting relationship with a wide part of the electorate over the last 3 terms. They will not be able to do that this term if they continue to change leaders.

                      I will wait and see how Mana, the IP, and IMP develop over the next three years. Ditto for Harre and KDC.

                      But, I thought Mana’s long term strategy of building a movement from the flax roots is an important one. I hope they get back to that.

                    • Ant

                      I’ll put the blame on all the left parties for continuously throwing each other under the bus. John Key got to divide and conquer, picking at each leftwing party at will, and none of them showed any solidarity, or stuck up for each other.

                      He was allowed to define the left under his own terms.

                      People need to realise if IMP wasn’t the target it would have been the Greens.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Well, I can only go by what I see in the public sphere, and that’s what it seems like to me.

                    Then you’re not looking. From what I’ve seen, Harre has no ego.

                    • karol

                      I have seen more of Harre during this election than ever before. My previous perception of her, mainly via her commentaries on Nine-to-Noon was very positive. She is very smart in her analysis and grasp of policies.

                      I do wonder about her grasp of political strategy. Forming a party a few months before an election seems not very practical to me. A party builds up a relationship with the electorate over a whole 3 year term leading up to an election.

                      It seems to me to take a fair amount of hubris to decide you can make a positive impact by leading a newly formed party at such short notice.

                      This election, i saw Harre quite a bit on TV, online videos, and a couple of local election debates that I attended.

                      She is indeed very good at making an argument, and responding to questions or challenges. However, I also developed some niggles about her. She does indeed have a strong ego, but many politicians have that, if not most.

                      I decided she has a lot of very good qualities, but she is not as perfect as many like to think.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      It seems to me to take a fair amount of hubris to decide you can make a positive impact by leading a newly formed party at such short notice.


                      karol, no one gets to lead a political party without a shedload of hubris. And even with just her and Hone in Parliament, we would have had a true left wing presence speaking for the underclass, in Parliament. So yes, it would have been a real impact.

                      I don’t know why you appear to be going out of your way to criticise Harre for what appears to be fairly typical politician attributes? I am guessing that you believe Harre’s involvement in IMP was flawed from the start and evidence of her bad personal judgement.

            • tinfoilhat

              That’s it I’m sick of the lies about Harre.

              She joined up with KDC for the money and because the Greens wouldn’t put her on their list, her ego got the better of her and the money from KDC was very nice as well. not only that she thieved most of the work she was doing for the Greens along with most of their policies.

              She is without doubt one of the most hypocritical persons to have taken part in this election ………..good riddance to her.

          • Draco T Bastard

            I don’t understand why Harre agreed to lead the IP.

            At a guess I’d say that it’s because Mana didn’t gel with here but IP did and does.

            KDC is just a bit player with regard to that.

            Young in politics and probably somewhat naive but not a bit player. Not at all.

            • karol

              Mana didn’t gel with here but IP did and does.

              Is she not a team player? Will she only play if she can lead?

              I’m still not convinced that KDC is anything but an individualist, entrepreneurial capitalist. I don’t see any long term value of him for the Left.

              • TheContrarian

                “I’m still not convinced that KDC is anything but an individualist, entrepreneurial capitalist.”

                That’s exactly what he is. That he was embraced by Minto/Hone/Harre/Bomber et al is why they were punished by the voter

                • weka

                  do you have any evidence, or even credible theory that that is why the vote for IMP was low?

                  • TheContrarian

                    Nope. Just a hunch.

                    What do you think? A media beat-up? Conspiracy? Or, more likely, the voting public said “Fuck this guy” and voted accordingly.

                    • weka

                      I think IMP got more votes this time than Mana got on their own last time. Harawira’s vote increased too.

                      So, I think media shit, people getting scared and voting Labour, it takes time to build a party’s vote, the attack on the TTT seat by the right, all those things have more meaning for me than KDC being a capitalist. You do realise the capitalists won the election right?

                      They were always going to be a small party. If Harawira hadn’t lost TTT, the IMP would have 2 MPs in parliament. That’s not bad actually.

                      See this too,

                      It’s worth noting that Hone actually received slightly _more_ votes than he did in on the night in 2011! From 7,139 up to 7,323, with special votes yet to be counted. The big change was a shift from Maori Party to Labour, and an increase in turnout which appears to be mostly NZ First supporters.

                      Internet Mana also got a somewhat bigger percentage of the total party vote than Mana alone managed in 2011, and would have gained an additional MP if Hone had kept the electorate. The claim that the alliance with Internet hurt Mana just doesn’t add up; it’s simply a case of the Right voting tactically, and the Left voting stupidly.

                      Seat watch – Te Tai Tokerau

                    • weka

                      “Just a hunch.”

                      which I take to mean a theory based on one’s prejudices. Getting a bit sick of this to be honest.

                • blue leopard

                  If that is true, Contrarian, would you please explain to me why so many people voted for Key’s National? 😐

              • weka

                I think Harra has demonstrated that leadership is a big part of her skillset. Makes sense to use it.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Is she not a team player?

                I didn’t say anything about her not being a team player. I said that she possibly didn’t gel with Mana meaning that Mana’s attitude/ethics/policies didn’t quite meet with hers. It’s why I don’t vote Mana but do support them.

                I don’t see any long term value of him for the Left.

                I do but that’s because I recognise in KDC the same changes I went through when I changed from voting National to voting left.

                • weka

                  +1. He looks like a man on a learning curve to me.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Very steep, very tough learning curve. But he is also very intelligent and knows when he has gone wrong. He won’t be making the same mistakes twice.

        • Chooky

          +100 brian

    • ianmac 52.5

      Yes Travelerev. Well said. The awful denigration of Kim by Key and others for political purposes, did much damage – and yet it does take courage to stand up and take it. Hope Kim continues in NZ.
      (By the way that disgraceful Kim assassination 3rd Degree program last Wednesday showed just what a nasty people Garner and his Producer are.)

      • phillip ure 52.5.1

        garners’ serial-gloating (all he had to say) wasn’t really a high-point in this morns’ political talkshows..

        ..garner is that nasty little prick sneering from behind the elbow of the bully..as the bully puts the boot in..

        ..and garner is the mentor of gower..

        ..explains a lot..really..

      • TheContrarian 52.5.2

        “By the way that disgraceful Kim assassination 3rd Degree program last Wednesday showed just what a nasty people Garner and his Producer are.”

        Right, because if it were Key’s staff talking about him you’d totally think the same. Own it – they guy is a fucking asshole as evidenced by multiple sources.

    • yeshe 52.6

      thank you travellerev. a profound and very useful letter indeed. i hope you can tweet to him so he can be sure to read it; laila and hone also. such a loss for us all. thanks for sharing .. it has gone straight to my heart.

  52. Marksman33 53

    Well, as one of the working poor living in the Far North I am also appalled at yesterdays results ( although it does re-enforce my very low opinion of the voting populace of this country ) Lets face it, John Key would have to start disembowling babies live on 7 Sharp before the average halfwit in this country stopped to think “Hey , I thought he was a nice guy”. Kiwi’s have always been very slow to admit when they got it wrong.
    I don’t blame the farmers, or business people for voting the way they do.You vote for the party that looks after your best interests. Its the other fucken clowns that are just average Joe Blows that are so delusional that they would vote for a party that doesn’t give shit about them, talk about masochists.The’re the ones who really need their nose’s rubbed in it. You get the Government you deserve and those people deserve to be royally shafted. And when things start hurting them real bad I will take great delight in saying, I told you so, but too late mate.
    For me, I will keep being Left and holding all to account and dodging bullets as they come, not sure what else I can do. But I will endeavor to spend as little money as I can on any business that has the whiff of collaboration with the Natz either nationally or in my own little town ( plenty of them ) And cut any civil ties to the Natz supporters that come within my sphere of day to day life. By them voting Natz that tells me they don’t really give a shit about me or mine so good riddance to them.
    I would Like to thank TS and particularly you Lyn for your tireless effort in giving us hope that one day NZ will become a much fairer and more compassionate place than it is now. Thanks M and B.

  53. Richies McClaw 54

    Helen may have been onto something when she spoke about the internal election system within Labour being problematic. I think her points were that it didn’t provide any stability, fosters division and it placed a lot of pressure on the leader (something which isn’t true for the leaders on the other side where power within caucus is more concentrated). I tend to agree.

  54. ianmac 55

    Changing minds:
    The LISP program researched the way that children responded to science learning. They found that a belief in say a process once established, was very very hard to shift regardless of the physical evidence to change the belief. eg electrical circuits.
    So an embedded belief in a Party is not going to be changed in spite of the evidence of corruption/lying. Not straight away anyway. Hope?

    I think that trivial ideas are able to be changed, like which bread is best or what book to read, but really big concepts covering integrity and trust are just too big to grapple with. Suppose there needs to be a traumatic experience to motivate change, like when a person pointing at Dole Bludgers, looses his job and can’t find another, or when a “nice house” mother finds herself alone with 2 kids.

    • karol 55.1

      That sounds about right to me.

      I think all the Dirty Politics and 5 Eyes revelations may establish some doubts about National. But i think the left needs to build a narrative that would show people why change is needed. It takes time, and couldn’t be done in a few weeks.

  55. So do we agree?
    If labour don’t re-elect DC within 3 months and replace him with either GR or DS (again 🙄 ) then they are doomed.

    If labour do elect DC and he doesn’t get a firm hand on the right of the party and regenerate it in his image, they are doomed.

    If labour do the stupid and elect GR or DS (again 🙄 ), then the left of the party has to splinter off or be doomed.

    Fantasy politics:
    GR or DS (again 🙄 ) wins caucus only labour leadership contest.
    DC and LH combine as leady deputy team in gang of ? breakaway group.
    Would be a 20-25% party within months, amid all the free publicity the media would garner out of a labour divide. If key DS would have been a mare, what price a DC DS bout would be stopped in the kindness of human decency.

    • The Al1en 56.1

      Can’t edit: leader, not leady

    • ianmac 56.2

      Al1en do you think that National is one unified homogeneous unit, or are there a wide range of groups with different agendas and different beliefs. With a swag of newbies are they all in the same mold?
      Does National have a rigid code of silence?

      • Draco T Bastard 56.2.1

        There’s at least three main groups within National all with different agendas and beliefs. And, yes, National do have rigid code of silence – authoritarians always support their leaders whether they agree with them or not.

      • The Al1en 56.2.2

        I’m sure national has it’s factions, English’s and judith’s being a couple of them. They’ve done a good job of keeping it out of the media, away from the eyes of it’s adoring public.
        So yes, they have a code of silence, or at least a memorandum of understanding about in fighting.

        Added to above, if DC does get the member and affiliates to the voting booth, the right would have to admit defeat and shuffle off to Siberia double time, get jobs on q&a or the nation as backup/on call ‘left’ pundits, or go start their dream center party and take their 5-10% with them and hope to fish off the scraps of the nats soft underbelly that they desire so much. A new last cab off the rank for DC, MT and RN to call in 2017 should they need it.

  56. Draco T Bastard 57

    Just found out that my sister & her husband, staunch Labour supporters 4 40+ yrs, voted Conservative because of Labour’s retirement plan.

    Can the Left stop blaming KDC now? Labour had some atrocious policies that a lot of us here said would lose them votes and guess what, that’s exactly what happened.

    • Chooky 57.1

      +100 DTB

    • Anne 57.2

      Exactly DTB. And that includes CGT. Madness.

      You, me and CV have been banging on about it for yonks – other commenters too. No-one took any notice. Well, maybe they will take notice now.

      Labour’s overall campaign was good but they bungled it with the way they went about presenting these two policy planks. Together with “dirty politics”, it’s the reason they so badly lost.

      edit: oh, and the fact they apparently turned down an offer to join with the Greens on a joint strategy.

  57. Poission 58

    Can any one explain the statistical anomaly,that there are no special votes allocated to the Maori electorates?


  58. Ecosse_Maidy 59

    Dear Comrades, so we are destined to endure another 3 yrs of National, why? We can blame the MSM (Karol), pollsters, big business interests, and squalid tactics of Keys and Co. Or..Perhaps the Message given to the electorate By Labour and Jnr Ptr Greens, was ignored, because it was shit.
    Its hard to compare and contrast ..Yet how come the pro independence Scots, in the land of my birth, did it very well and managed to activate and motivate people whom were not politically active and managed to get nearly half the country behind them?.An engaged good natured Campaign,,,,that by passed a huge MSM which makes ours look like a piss pond.Three main political parties & big business on a scale we could not imagine.
    So lets not blame thing we cant affect…
    Lets blame the Lame Message given by Labour and Greens Gave.
    Until they provide a narrative of hope, that people can feel a natural affinity with, in all aspects of life…Labour & Greens will never prevail.
    It is incumbent on those opinion makers, including those on this site, Savage, Rodgers, Lprent, Karol to help bring to life something that all have a stake in and will be prepared to vote for.
    Until the internal petty, ivory tower bickering of the neo Labour, twitterarti Karol and Greens, reflect and not project then we will not see an egalitarian society this side of the end of the decade.
    I don’t know about the rest of you. yet I am pissed off with the longest suicide Labour, Greens Manifesto agendas
    Wake up all of you before its too late!

  59. brian 60

    Cartoon – Michael Leunig Appreciation Page

    “Finally, we were able to harness Brian’s feelings about the Prime Minister, and after plugging in to him, we managed to boil the kettle in just three minutes”

  60. Herodotus 61

    To take your minds away from the election there is this of maggy thatcher dressed as Che Guevara, but the sentiment is worth thinking about that from the Social Economy Alliance. There are those on the right who have common concerns with society as the left.

    • Herodotus 61.1

      There is a growing movement out there, perhaps only the 3 rd of a generation: late 60’s social reform , mid 80’s neoliberal and this ?
      Perhaps all that was an issue with the lefts performance in this election was the timing in it being too soon to feed off the evidence of the reason as to why such a movement of this is required. Especially with the resemblance of a false recovery of the GFC still evident especially with the decline of diary to flow thru our economy.

  61. chris73 62

    Chances of 4 terms for Key looking better and better 🙂

  62. Draco T Bastard 63

    You Be The Judge: 3 Different Versions of NZ’s “Moment of Truth”

    Tim didn’t think the Moment of Truth was a fizzer. When I asked him for comment, he said: “this is the biggest story in the world right now.”

    Indeed it is. After weeks of #DirtyPolitics lead-up, the “Moment of Truth” broke into the international media in a huge way. Despite this, the New Zealand mainstream media continued to target Kim Dotcom in precisely the same way warned about in Nicky Hager’s book.

    An interesting and well thought out piece about how different perspectives inter-relate.

    • ianmac 63.1

      Thanks for that very important link DTB.
      The part about the journalist’s response was terrifying. Including Russell Brown’s preoccupation with attacking Kim DotCom even though Russell redeemed himself with his Greenwald interview.
      Sad to think that in the midst of serious world-affecting-Privacy/internet issues we have superficial reporting determined to carry out character assassinations where Key and Slater left off.

  63. Ovid 64

    After due consideration and deliberation, I am abandoning my handle of “Pete” (which had the virtue of being easy to remember as, well, it’s my name) and I’m adopting the new one you see here. It has been, so far as I can recall, the only handle I’ve used here in the 4 or 5 years I’ve been visiting the site. But it’s a pain to be confused with several other commenters.

    In Metamorphoses, Ovid recounted much classical myth – many involving change in one form or another (Narcissus turning into a flower, Zeus into a swan) I look forward to commenting on changes, good and bad, over the next three years.

    I suppose I could have chosen Kafka, but that’s overly pessimistic.

  64. Clemgeopin 65

    i have a nagging feeling that the terrorist raids and arrests in Australia had the effect of moving at least a small % of votes to National on the election day.

    Before that, the Snowden/Greenwald/Assange revelations had Key on very shaky grounds as indicated by his shifting and contradictory statements about mass surveillance/GCSB/NSA etc.

  65. SHG 66

    Lol. To get over the election disaster and reconnect with her socialist principles, Laila Harre is going skiing. With Matthew Hooton.

  66. millsy 67

    Something we all forgot…

    This National victory means that the final nail has been driven into the coffin on the Napier-Gisborne line, and quite possibly, the Palmerston North to Napier Line. The North Auckland line will follow once the “Holiday Highway” opens, and pretty soon the rest of the network will be closed down.

    KiwiRail will be no more in 10 years.

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