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Open Mike 21/10/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 21st, 2016 - 89 comments
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89 comments on “Open Mike 21/10/2016 ”

  1. weka 1

    [Please note, we are trialling something new for Open Mike and Daily Review.

    In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift comments from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted.

    Have fun folks – weka]

    • Gosh, it’s almost like the various governments involved in this conflict have competing interests that they’re promoting. I’m shocked!

      • McFlock 2.1.1

        I particularly liked the bit that there are only a thousand ISIS fighters left in all of Mosul, and that the entire attack is a charade.

        Dude blown to smithereens on telly means only 999 left, I guess.

    • ianmac 2.2

      Trump referred to this in last night’s debate. Clinton scoffed in response.

    • adam 2.3

      Odd, none of the Kurd’s I follow are saying anything about this.

      I think you don’t get how hated ISIS is by the Kurd’s, nor the other ethnic and religious minorities in the region. To them, contemplating having to fight ISIS later is not part of there thinking, they want to finish them now.

      Mosul will be the hard fight they expect.

      I think the Russians are forgetting this is a civil war, hearts and minds are everything. So big propaganda pieces from the Iraq and Kurdish forces is to be expected, to extrapolate some theory of ISIS safe passage deal, seems wonky at best.

      Also I’m hearing the US staying out as much as possible (air strikes), because this is a civil war. They know they can’t win one of those for someone.

  2. Morrissey 3

    Gable Tostee “not guilty”. If you disagree with that “verdict”, then that
    legal sage and philosopher Chris Trotter has some stern advice for you.

    Gable Tostee, 30, was charged after Warriena Wright, 26, fell from his balcony in Queensland’s Gold Coast in August 2014. Prosecutors argued that she was so intimidated that she tried to escape by climbing to a lower floor, but fell.

    After four days of deliberation, the jury has found Gable Tostee not guilty of murder and manslaughter.

    In case you are foolish enough to be disgusted by that “verdict”, then you should consider the following piece of solemn admonition….

    I think all this talk about the jury is most unfortunate. You have, even in this case I think, to trust the jury. In any trial, there are always items of evidence that we do not know about, even in this case I think.

    Open mike 19/07/2013

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      I mean its a fair call about the information the jury gets but on the face of it I’d have thought he was guilty

      • Invisible Axe 3.1.1

        Agree with you there PR, quite shocking & sad for the family.

      • Psycho Milt 3.1.2

        Guilty of something, at least. I can see why a jury might eventually come down to rejecting murder, but as a juror I’d find it pretty hard to vote not guilty of manslaughter for a guy pleading “self-defence” against a woman who was screaming “No no no, let me go home!” at the time.

    • Cinny 3.2

      Miss-trial due to instagram, the accused should be made to take the stand. I expect it to be appealed. Weird case, creepy as after discovering more about Tostee.

      Sad for the young ladies family, so sad, so public for them, love and energy to her family.

      • james 3.2.1

        ” the accused should be made to take the stand”


        There is no legal requirement for this and in a lot of cases it is the norm for the accused not to take the stand.

        • Cinny

          Exactly… there is no legal requirement… just good lawyers, and you tend to get what you pay for.

          More profitable to sell ones story than tell it publically on the stand anyways, which media outlet will offer the best price for his story I wonder? Will it be enough to cover his legal fee’s?

    • millsy 3.3

      “I would [let you go home], but you have been a naughty girl..”.

      I dont know why Tostee just didnt let her go home.

      • Johan 3.3.1

        It appears that Miss Wright did not receive competent representation. There are way too many unanswered questions.
        “I would [let you go home], but you have been a naughty girl..”. Tells us that Tostee had unfinished business.

      • The New Student 3.3.2

        Intimidation, pure and simple. Just this remark alone from his creepy recording (why did he record this in the first place? Blackmail? More intimidation?) is evidence enough. He clearly intended to cause her mental and emotional harm. His intentions led directly to her death. He could have chosen to push her out the front door but instead chose to isolate her. The balcony is not “off the property” it is an isolated, outdoor part of said property. Judge got that completely wrong.

  3. weka 4

    US election discussion thread is available now.

  4. Syria Solidarity: National day of action 29th October

    Civilians in Aleppo and across Syria are being intensively bombed by Russia with bunker bombs, phosphorous bombs, napalm, thermobaric and cluster bombs; and by the Syrian regime with chlorine containing barrel bombs; targetting homes, schools, hospitals, rescue teams, and underground shelters .

    Like many Syrian cities, Aleppo has been under a starvation siege. The regime and Russian have even bombed the city’s water supply.

    Despite these atrocious crimes against humanity, Aleppo’s people show tremendous solidarity and caring for each other, as they work to find the wounded under the rubble, and rush them to undergound clinics for treatment. Hundreds of democratically run community councils have been formed across Syria in the liberated areas. They have produced a tremendous amount of art, literature, music, and electronic media documenting the revolution and counter revolution in Syria.
    The “peace” talks have broken down. It is clear that Russia and the Assad regime are looking for a military solution to enable the genocidal Assad regime to continue in power.

    Most of the fighters killing Syrian civilians are not Syrians. They include soliders from Afghanistan, Lebanon, Iran and Iraq, many of them conscripted or desperately poor with no other options for a living.

    The Assad regime and Russia have killed half a million Syrian people. The genocide has to stop! The regime regularly uses rape and torture as weapons.
    The war started because people across Syria went onto the streets to demand democracy, and instead were shot, rounded up, tortured, raped and killed. So the people took up arms to defend themselves. The Assad regime has vowed to continue to obliterate the population until it accepts his rule.

    Both the United States and Russia have re-defined the people’s struggle for democracy as a “war on terror” and are both responsible for killing civilians.
    Isis grew in Syria with the encouragement of the Assad regime. Assad deliberately released extremists from his jails, who went on to join Isis in Syria. The regime leaves Isis alone, and Isis is continually attacking the democratic opposition groups. The democratic opposition has been forced to fight on two fronts, against the attacks from the regime and from Isis. Despite the evils perpetrated by Isis, it has killed a fraction of the number of people, that the Assad regime has. The Assad regime with its Russian and Iranian allies are the greater evil.

    Stop the bombing! Troops out!
    No more genocide! Solidarity with the Syrian Revolution!
    Victory for Syrian people now!

    Wellington action:
    2-3pm 29th October, Russian Embassy, 57 Messines Road, Karori

    Auckland action:
    2-3pm 29th October, Aotea Square

    • Cinny 5.1

      Awesome initiative, kudos to all those whom attend.

      • Garibaldi 5.1.1

        Nah – they’re backing the wrong horse. The West are only in there to push for regime change – like in Libya. Same fucked up principle will give the same result as Libya. Please note how the yanks are also doing Israels and Saudi Arabias dirty work as they try to squash Shia regimes one by one.

        • Cinny

          Stop the bombing! I’d say they just want less death and suffering from war, I’m down with that, everyone should be.

          So sick of the killing, i don’t care whom is doing it, it needs to stop

          • In Vino

            Here is the news, Cinny. No way will the bombing stop. It never does. Our media blame it on the other side through blaming ‘human shield’ tactics, etc, when our bombs kill civilians. Are our side going to stop bombing Mosul because of civilians? Nup – but we will get publicity about the nasty Russian and Assad bombs in Aleppo. Get used to it.

  5. ropata 6

    Superprofits off the back of ratepayer/taxpayer subsidies and a broken housing market. https://t.co/8UivWVVBcJ— TransportBlog (@TransportBlog) October 20, 2016

    Ten owners of a west Auckland site have grouped together to sell their $150 million-plus farmland for a vast new housing estate #NZHFocus pic.twitter.com/yuIl0XyyLq— nzherald (@nzherald) October 20, 2016

    “New Zealand now tops the IMF list of unaffordable places to live.” https://t.co/1MaekgKArR— Esther Goh (@egesther) October 19, 2016

  6. repateet 7

    Judge Goddard got it in the neck in an ”overseas” rantsite yesterday.

    No byline to identify the author but really it was hardly needed.

  7. a note to cv – I put this on the post you put up but I suspect that post won’t stay up so I’m reposting here

    Why not read the signs and actually take time off from the bubble you have created around yourself. You’ll probably come back fresher. What you are doing now isn’t working – that’s my advice – read the signs mate because imo all of your credibility capital is pretty well gone down the gurgler because of some of those ‘calls’ you have recently made.

    anyway delete, ban or ignore – or maybe listen – your call.

    • andrew murray 8.1

      @MM Weka, PM, The Ex, J 90 etc,
      you guys appear to me to be just bullies who have undertaken an irrational, abusive and vindictive attack on CV who, at least originally, tried to discuss the matter of The Clintons, Trump and American politics. A discussion centred within a framework of big business, political elitism and social inequality. You have pushed him in the the corner he now finds himself in, and to what end other than to shut down a differing view point.
      I’m sure i’m not the only one who thinks this. I have found you all disappointing.

      • left for dead 8.1.1

        I’m very disappointed too. E UNUM PLURIBUS.

        • gsays

          gotta say i feel rather dismayed at what has played out in this community lately.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Yeah normally its the right leaning posters on this site that have people calling for bans

            • marty mars

              you should be banned for that 🙂

            • gsays

              its a special kind of ire the left saves for its own.

              • it’s not really the case here though – cv does not identify as left. I identify as left. cv and I are not in the same camp and therefore he isn’t my own and I’m not his own. I really tried to come from a place of compassion in my comment to him above – it is sad to me that some (maybe including you gsays) don’t get that.

                We (of the left) have to get rid of this government and get more equality and equity in play for so many disadvantaged people in our society – life is getting so hard for so so many and it is happening now, this minute and only getting worse. I want to focus on that, not have to deal with lies and misinformation designed, yes DESIGNED to disrupt the left, from someone who shoots wildly, never aims correctly and dismisses as unimportant the innocent bystanders who end up recipients of his output. And this is done under cover like a wolf with a sheepskin on its back.

                Sure I could ignore, let it go, concentrate on my passionate areas but you know, this is MY community too, in that I visit, I consider, I contribute, I laugh, I cry – all here, in this community – I am not going to sit on my hands and allow trojan horse pretenders to take MY community away – I won’t have anywhere to go if that happens… 🙁

                • gsays

                  hey cheers marty,
                  a couple of things..
                  i did get yr compassion earlier.
                  for me andrew’s comment was a chance to have 10 cents worth.

                  i had been thinking that tensions had been running high in the last few days without much sign of a backdown or releasing of tensions. generally over excitement generated by opinions of the american popularity contest.
                  in the cold light of day neither candidate is a great example of a leader to deal with what humanity is staring down the barrell of.

                  about our community; please don’t take this as telling y’all how to suck eggs.. the best thing we can do for our community is to be kinder to each other.

      • marty mars 8.1.2

        well andrew I don’t think cv was pushed and I don’t agree with you when you imply that cv is able to be pushed – I think he is competently able to have his own agency and responsibility to what he says. My note to him above comes from a place of compassion, because in the past others have given me the same advice when I needed to hear it.

        • andrew murray

          The point is that there is scope for valid political debate outside of gender discrimination and by my observation this is where CV endeavoured to position the conversation, at least initially. It was you guys that seemed to insist the issue had to be viewed through the prism of gender politics only. In doing so you have you have completely undermined a valid discussion on what, strategically speaking, is the best way to end corporate domination of social and political outcomes. It also says a lot about about how illiberal you all really are.

          • weka

            The point is that there is scope for valid political debate outside of gender discrimination and by my observation this is where CV endeavoured to position the conversation, at least initially.

            I don’t know what you are referring to and given you are making some hefty accusations, I think you need to explain more clearly what you are talking about.

            • andrew murray

              No Weka I don’t, the meaning is clear enough, and they are observations not accusations. Your reaction is also clear… defensive and antagonistic. It is you that needs to consider more carefully what I might be talking about. There should be a better response to challenging and complex matters of social/political concern than that proffered by J90 below that again just looks to ‘win’ not explore the issue.

              [one of the main rules one this site is don’t tell authors/moderators what to do. Another is don’t waste moderators’ time. There are very good reasons for both of those, which boil down to protecting authors so that they want to put up posts and so they have time to write. In that sense authors are considered more important than commenters, not because we’re somehow better but because we’re the ones putting the work in to keep the front page full of posts.

              I get that it is complicated when an author/mod is also commenting, so let me be clear. When you called me a bully above, I wasn’t sure if you were referring to my comments or my moderations. I’ve let this subthread run because I’ve been busy and I was hoping that it would settle down. But you are now outright challenging an author and that’s a problem. Please now clarify if you think I am a bully as a commenter or a moderator or both. If you are calling me a bully as a moderator, you need to link to 3 examples in the past month that support that. If you are calling me a bully as a commenter, I will deal with that when I am not in bold. However you need to be aware that if you continue to make accusations without responding to requests for clarification or back up, then at some point a moderator will get involved.

              This isn’t negotiable. I suggest you read the Policy and About, because I’m not willing to spend more time on this and if I have to moderate you again I will be putting in a timed ban. I have no problem with people expressing disappointment or dissatisfaction with the moderation here, or specific decisions, or asking questions or making constructive suggestions, but it’s not ok to have a go at authors. I’m putting you in premod so I can more easily pick up your reply. – weka]

              • Friendly advice from a non-moderator: you definitely make two accusations with no identifying context in, and doubling down on it is a good way to annoy moderators. The site does explain all this in its comments policy.

                • andrew murray

                  Then I will leave it to others to form an opinion on whether this anti CV clique seeks to shut down rather than engage with dessenting viewpoints. I have no wish to be further dragged in to pedantic argument on the definition of an accusation while you chose to ignore the substance of the observation.

          • joe90

            Holding an opinion that an alleged serial sexual offender is a manifestly unsuitable candidate is a view through the prism of gender politics only, really?.

            • Manuka AOR

              Holding an opinion that an alleged serial sexual offender is a manifestly unsuitable candidate is a view through the prism of gender politics only, really?.

              … a candidate who has personally ensured that gender is front and centre of each of the three presidential debates. “Nasty woman”, “she” (repeated in hissing tones many times), doubting her stamina, saying she doesn’t “look” presidential, stalking her onstage in the most repulsive way – and admitting later that he was in fact envisaging her sexually at that time!!! DURING a live, televised presidential debate!!!

              And that is all a-ok with Mr Murray?

          • marty mars

            I don’t agree with the conclusions you have reached there andrew. I can’t see where there was any insistence at all apart from asking for evidence for blanket, usually insulting and hurtful, accusations against others – when that inevitably didn’t occur then that was named as an opinion and was weighed against other opinions that that writer has made previously – there does develop a cumulative effect where a commenter’s ‘voice’ is known.

            You don’t like that as a left left person I don’t like reading and having to argue against bullshit and hate speech, against arguments proven false and with no redeeming qualities I might add, against a self confessed non-left thinker or believer – just because they want to shout loudly their (proven) bigotry. That is fine by me and also fine you make comment on it.

            • Garibaldi

              Thank you Andrew Murray. I agree with your comments and am disappointed by the behaviour of many on this site in their relentless vindictive treatment of CV.

    • Lanthanide 8.2

      BTW, if anyone had noticed my light commenting around these parts recently, a small part of it is due to CV’s behaviour of late. I just can’t be bothered coming here and having to scroll past all his crap. I’m sure there are some who might consider that sweet relief, of course 🙂

      • weka 8.2.1

        I’m sure you are not the only one.

      • Puckish Rogue 8.2.2

        I like your posts, they’re normally quite considered but its Penny Brights posts that annoy the heck out of me or rather her posting something then not bothering to reply to people that comment on what she posted

        • reason

          Yes Puck I have observed you partaking in group bullying of Penny in the past and commented on that yesterday …… when you were being insincere about attitudes to women posters ……

          Also not one of you trolls ever answered my easy maths question of $2.2 billion divided by $22 million ……….. when comparing the aussie bank fraud featuring a getaway tax vehicle provided by John Shewan ….. versus the $22 million welfare fraud prosecuted in the same year … The answer was of course that Shewans and the bamks fraud was 100x larger … or 100 years worth.

          You never answered did you Puck ………

          Bring back CV and ban Puck is my opinion …….

          I’ve accepted Hillary the Hawk will be the next president over Trump, who I called out as a rapist last fathers day from memory …..

          Anyway, New Zealand and the rest of the world should take a lot more refugees …..

          made not in ………. but by the u.s.a

  8. joe90 9

    Quietly following this Todd&Clare shenanigans and I reckon the whole thing is just a bit too cute, so, putting on my bestest tinny –

    Obviously it’s taken time and resources to launch but would a professional hit piece on Assange:

    Coincide with an internet rumour about Assange’s well being.

    Coincide with Assange’s loss of internet services

    Offer a payment from the Russian government to promote a women’s dating site.

    Todd &Clare front be so easily exposed and connected to Clinton associates, within hours, by internet sleuths.

    Allegations be so easily refuted, again, within hours, by contacting Bahamian police.

    Had enough time to go viral and just before it got legs, it’s squashed.

    Tinny off.


    • weka 9.1

      plus wikileaks anniversary and/or major announcement this month.

      I don’t quote get which conspiracy it is though – the one to attempt to discredit Assange or the one to discredit Clinton?

      • joe90 9.1.1

        Sorting the black flags from the white hats black flagging sounds just the job for ugly truth…or trav….

  9. Blade 10

    I see Pete George has something to say on the CV banning.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  10. stever 11

    Be good to see: (1) the outcome of this; and (2) it happen here. What chances are there of IRD doing something similar??


  11. Puckish Rogue 12


    Good on them, I think Parkers not at Joshua or Klitschkos level just yet but sometimes you just have to take the opportunity when it comes and, if he can beat Ruiz, his opportunity will come sooner rather later

  12. In a war we should not be in. Directing airstrikes that might be the cause of war crimes. Harming New Zealand’s reputation. So says the Guardian:


    Do you think we are there?

    I think we might be.

    • I’m absolutely sure we are there, Robert. I suggested in a post ages ago that our role over there was not going to be limited to training the Iraqi military and that the SAS would be lurking around as well. I’d like to think that when IS are forced out of Iraq and into Syria that our role, whatever it is, comes to a swift end.

    • Grey Area 13.2

      And like we should believe a spokeperson for Gerry Brownlee’s office? Yeah, right …

    • Puckish Rogue 13.3

      “Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee has denied claims in international media that New Zealand special forces are calling in airstrikes in northern Iraq, “or involved in any other combat operations” in the country.”

      Of course NZ special forces individuals could be working with/seconded to other nations forces which means they come under those countries mandate and not our own so Gerry Brownlee is probably telling the truth…or interpreting the question the way he wants to

  13. McFlock 14

    CO2 into ethanol.
    Buggered if I know where they get the hydrogen from, but Oak Ridge don’t usually bullshit this stuff.

    Fuck fuel, I’m just glad there’s a new source of liquor 🙂

  14. Herodotus 15

    As someone who is involved in the residential building and development industry in Auckland, there appears to be a trend of the banks “de risking” in this industry. I have just completed the yearly banking review for the coy. With our “relationship” banker informing me that the bank has given us 10 months to reduce our credit facility by 1/3rd, which will mean that money that were intended to develop land and houses will now be used to repay the bank back. This on top of that the MOCCL rate we pay is to increase. The reason was that the bank is under pressure to maintain its profit margins in a tight market, in which they cannot lower rates as investors are unwilling to deposit for fixed terms given the low yields.
    From discussions with others within the industry we are not the only coy that the banks are placing increasing pressure to reduce debt, this at a time when we are forever being reminded that Auckland needs 14k houses build p.a. ??

  15. Herodotus 16

    As someone who is involved in the residential building and development industry in Auckland, there appears to be a trend of the banks “de risking” in this industry. I have just completed the yearly banking review for the coy. With our “relationship” banker informing me that the bank has given us 10 months to reduce our credit facility by 1/3rd, which will mean that money that were intended to develop land and houses will now be used to repay the bank back. This on top of that the MOCCL rate we pay is to increase. The reason was that the bank is under pressure to maintain its profit margins in a tight market, in which they cannot lower rates as investors are unwilling to deposit for fixed terms given the low yields.
    From discussions with others within the industry we are not the only coy that the banks are placing increasing pressure to reduce debt, this at a time when we are forever being reminded that Auckland needs 14k houses build p.a. whilst building less than 9k??

    • Cinny 16.1

      interesting, ty for the info. I wonder if banks are expecting some people to default on loans, so are making sure businesses are able to counter balance it by paying down more debt at this time? Are interest rates about to rise? Will people be able to maintain massive mortgages on over priced properties?

      How much profit do the banks need? It’s not as a result of recent property investor/banking lending rules changes?

      Sounds like it could be a stumbling block for many in the trade whom are trying to build housing. Or is nick smith trying to dig himself out of a gaping cavernous hole, maybe he’ll blame the banks next for lack of action on his housing promises? Building boom? Housing Crisis?

      Either way sounds like a pain for the people in your industry for sures.

  16. Ad 17

    With a massive Russian fleet now heading from the Baltic to the Syrian coast, and the US effectively expelling 5000 ISIS fighters from Iraq to Syria, I see a nod-wink for a Russian bloodbath of the remaining Isis. In Syria.

    • Stuart Munro 17.1

      Recent events suggest the potential of a (sorry about that) deliberate mistake is also high. I’m not sure about the US strike that hit Assad forces, but I don’t believe they expected the Russian reprisal.

      ISIS may disperse if they face a genuine existential threat – some at least of them can do that.

      This has the potential to be a very good war not to be involved in – no high moral ground, and small players get hurt if the giants dance.

  17. xanthe 18

    some interesting discussion by some geeks trying to find links between clinton campaign and the toddandclair “assange is pedophile” scam.

    bring your tinfoil hat but still some rather interesting connections

    I have been looking into the San Fransisco address listed in the Wikileaks Final Report and found something possibly big, who may be behind the Assange Pedophile attacks a corporation called Premise Data Corporation from WikiLeaks

    • McFlock 18.1

      Assuming that the people who wanted to set up a website in a false name put their correct address on the registrations…

      At least someone’s looking at it, though.

  18. weka 19

    [In order to keep OM and DR free for other conversations, all comments, link postings etc about the US election now need to go in the dedicated US election discussion here.

    If you are unsure, post in that thread rather than here. It’s not possible for moderators to shift comments from OM to there, so any comments here may get deleted – weka]

  19. Conal Tuohy 20

    What has happened to CV’s post about US-Filipino relations? I saw the post in my RSS feed but when I clicked through to the site it was gone!

    All I can see is some cryptic references to CV being banned, but no official notice or anything. It all comes across as a bit Stalinist in form. That post about Duterte I was looking forward to reading but perhaps it wasn’t politically correct? Who can enlighten me?

    • Manuka AOR 20.1

      I hope to see that article again too, as soon as CV is back. It is quite riveting really, what is happening over there, and relevant for many of us.

  20. Manuka AOR 21

    I don’t know – I’m not a mod.
    But I really do hope CV is able to bring it back. It is a topic that immediately affects some of my wider family by marriage, and friends.
    (Reply to Conal)

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