Open mike 22/09/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 22nd, 2024 - 57 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

57 comments on “Open mike 22/09/2024 ”

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  1. gsays 1
    22 September 2024 at 8:24 am

    There is a certain irony when Damien Grant chooses to go back centuries to disqualify church leaders from having a political opinions.

    It would appear his political hero, Seymour, is using tactics from the past to disenfranchise some of the citizenry, this time because of cultural differences.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350424254/damien-grant-church-leaders-wrong-over-treaty-debate-risks

    You don't have to read all of it, the first couple of paragraphs give you the gist of it.

    • Incognito 1.1
      22 September 2024 at 9:45 am

      It’s always deeply ironic when free speech advocates attempt to cancel people whose ideas they disagree with.

      • David 1.1.1
        22 September 2024 at 2:05 pm

        You’re right, it is ironic, although his supporters would say that he is discrediting and saying they shouldn’t be involved. But in reality how much different is that to cancelling someone?

    • Ad 1.2
      22 September 2024 at 9:56 am

      We won't be able to win this public fight unless the left parties are united in a comprehensive campaign.

      No sign of this yet.

      • Incognito 1.2.1
        22 September 2024 at 10:05 am

        The big question is what or who would coalesce them.

        • Ad 1.2.1.1
          22 September 2024 at 10:41 am

          There are 54 people earning over $180,000 in Parliament right now whose job it is to get off their fat fucking asses and lead the political opposition to this government.

          • Incognito 1.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2024 at 11:10 am

            Yes, that may be correct, but it doesn’t answer the question.

            • Ad 1.2.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2024 at 12:06 pm

              5 leaders whose job it is to lead opposition politics.

              Yes it does.

              • Incognito …
                22 September 2024 at 12:41 pm

                Ok, let’s go with that then. Where do they start, what’s the plan, what’s the overarching theme and who [singular or plural] leads the way to bring enough people along? Et cetera. All I hear so far is: this is your job, make it so!

                • tWig …
                  22 September 2024 at 1:07 pm

                  Let's start by pushing for individual input to select committee must be limited to ONCE per NZ CITIZEN.

                  No permanent residents, as they have no skin in the game for NZ's constitution. This could appeal to NZF, with Winston's aversion to furriners.

                  No overseas trolls.

                  No overseas citizens who have left NZ more than 10 years ago.

                  No double and multiple dipping to bump up numbers under different email addresses.

                  Once only will limit the time and cost of screening online individual submissions. And let's bet the government will use AI to 'sort' the comments.

                  So transparency and public release of any algorithm that sorts government submissions.

                  There's a few key pushes for a starter that will help to balance the submission process for any Bill.

                • Ad …
                  22 September 2024 at 3:10 pm

                  Most of the agenda is set by the governments' own policy direction.

                  To state the bleeding obvious: the Opposition needs to lead a debate about the constitution of New Zealand that leads up to the 2040 Bicentennary.

                  The Government is framing it one way.

                  The alternative is that a collected Opposition needs a multi-term programme of consistent debates and marches and policy projects and publications that set out what makes us unique, what grounds us forever, what binds us into common good. And of course that involves the Treaty of Waitangi. But it also requires a set of other elements as well. Such as the role of the Sovereign, the Realm states, BORA, and so on.

                  Of course the current Opposition direction is different. Most are hankering for a broadscale debate about tax. In the face of rising unemployment, lowering economic growth, and cratering public confidence in government this is nonsensical.

                  At some point the Opposition leaders will actually have to pick up the phone to each other. Clearly the current Coalition can.

                  • roblogic …
                    22 September 2024 at 3:53 pm

                    Chippy is capable and everyone cheers when he occasionally lets rip. The question is why is it so infrequent.

                    In contrast, the last Labour government could barely announce anything before the media went running to Luxon or Seymour for a juicy soundbite.

                    There is plenty of controversy and scandal and failure for Chippy to drag the Nats over.

          • tc 1.2.1.1.2
            22 September 2024 at 1:10 pm

            Totally Ad, its their job so they need to do it to show they actually give a F about outside the beltway

          • Rosielee 1.2.1.1.3
            22 September 2024 at 3:29 pm

            yes

        • gsays 1.2.1.2
          22 September 2024 at 4:06 pm

          Great question.

          As for policy, nationalising the power companies, winding back sub contracting in hospitals (catering, security etc), Ministry of Works 2.0 with a couple of key projects to get capacity and ability built up new rail ferry wharves, half dozen solar farms..).

          In a related vein, E Tu is organising a meeting due to concerns with the direction of the government- attacks on workers (conditions, FPA), attack on health system (Levy), attacks on Tangata Whenua (health authority, reo 'white-outed' from public service and aussie invites) etc.

          The question I have, and what you posed, we know what we don't want, what do we want. Specifically, not airy fairy hand wave aspirations.

    • roblogic 1.3
      22 September 2024 at 5:40 pm

      How ironic that the Nats who are full of nominal "christians" have found a way to unite the churches against themselves

  2. Ngungukai 2
    22 September 2024 at 8:45 am

    So both Seymore and Damien Grant are saying that the Churches are not entitled to have an opinion. This "Treaty Principles Bill" is going to end up in a "Dog's Breakfast" IMHO.

    At least at the end of this debarcle we will know which side of the fence everyone is sitting on. It's going to get messy, so stock up on the popcorn and watch the Show.

    • Ad 2.1
      22 September 2024 at 9:15 am

      Damn your popcorn.

      Fight for it or lose it.

    • Mike the Lefty 2.2
      22 September 2024 at 9:45 am

      As far as the CoC is concerned, no one is entitled to an opinion unless it supports them.

      The irony of parties who claim to support democracy and open government not wanting contrary opinions to be voiced.

      • Mac1 2.2.1
        22 September 2024 at 12:20 pm

        “Mr Key said, in politics, all facts were open to interpretation by rivals and journalists. It echoed his now-notorious BBC interview in London back in 2011, in which he said "experts were like lawyers" and you could always find another to give a different opinion.”

        From 2016, https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/201807260/is-a-'post-truth'-era-upon-us

        In other words, seek other opinions if you don't like the facts and evidence-based opinions you've been given.

        And we all know that churches are 'woke' and 'virtue signalling'.

        We knew all this in 2016

        “Politicians can get away with it because of public apathy,” Ms Vance added. “The examples raised [on Q+A last weekend] and in my column have all been reported.”

        “I sometimes wonder if people want to hear the facts and the truth, or if they’re more interested in hearing what they believe is the truth and to go along with the politicians that reinforce their prejudice.”

    • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3
      22 September 2024 at 12:22 pm

      Messy debacles distract from the CoC's main mission as a govt by landLords for landLords. Dangling the long-term financial security of (first) home ownership out of reach of a growing proportion of Kiwis (the many) keeps the flow of gravy on track.

      New Zealand on track to soon have more renters than homeowners
      [23 July 2024]

      Home ownership and unequal ageing [7 Aug 2024]
      Will the New Zealand Superannuation model work for a nation of renters?

      The home ownership rate for those aged between 30 and 40 fell by over 20 percentage points between 1991 and 2018.

      Landlords aren’t ready for ageing tenants – so, what do we do now?
      [2 Sept 2024]

  3. roblogic 3
    22 September 2024 at 2:58 pm

    Nick's Korero asks "Who's to Blame for the Government?" with a witty byline: "It is people; It is people; It is the people that voted for them."

    Dostoyevski wrote extensively about the darkness in the human heart and was scathing of Communism and Gulags. But we Westerners are blind to the evils inherent in our own system.

    Jacinda's Labour government defeated a deadly pandemic but failed to overcome the equally dangerous outbreak of psychological warfare that followed it.

    Fear and stupidity can be just as dangerous and virulent as biological pathogens.

    Kiwis voted from resentment, anger, fear, and greed. They rejected the team of 5 million. The last election was a self-destructive protest vote, with the same motives as the Trump phenomenon in the USA. A large number of people decided to vote for the "fuck you!" party. They clearly resent the idea of living in a society and helping others, especially the poor, disabled or Maori.

    The right tapped into the selfish lizard part of their brains. Somehow we need to re-ignite the mammalian instincts of community and trust and co-operation. Otherwise we are headed down a dark path.

    • Ad 3.1
      22 September 2024 at 3:21 pm

      Unless this current government actually improves public service delivery, there's a very good chance that voters will boot them out.

      Improved public service delivery is the only medium-term way to defeat authoritarian populism.

      • roblogic 3.1.1
        22 September 2024 at 3:56 pm

        Or at least not make things worse. And make Kiwis feel like the Govt is helping.

        It's a pretty low bar.

      • Graeme 3.1.2
        22 September 2024 at 8:11 pm

        Unless this current government actually improves public service delivery, there's a very good chance that voters will boot them out.

        The current government has also got to allow private business to improve, or at least keep up, their services. I'm starting to notice a lot of North Island businesses that no longer provide shipping services to the South Island. Still ok at a courier parcel level, but larger items, they're not prepared to take the risk with variable cartage rates and delays. The kneecapping of InterIslander is going to reverberate around the South Island and cost National some previously very secure votes.

        National's authoritarian populism is aimed at the half of the population that lives north of Taupo, the rest are either taken for granted or told to fuck off. Can see the right / wrong direction polling going very much wrong before too long. Manawatū gorge toll road and the ferry debacle are going to bite.

    • Descendant Of Smith 3.2
      22 September 2024 at 4:56 pm

      Lots of people rejected them for failing to implement WEAG, others because of the two tier welfare system for mainly white working people, others because they removed being able to include your underage partner in NZS. These things all affected poor people in negative ways.

      My starting point will always be the 8 hour working day, 40 hour working week and universal family benefit. Things Labour Party left behind many years ago.

      Neighbour had a power company fault a few Sundays back. Asked the worker if he still got overtime – he said no the workers in the union who do office work voted for losing overtime for a lump sum payment – cause they don't have to do OT. In the end the workers who have to do overtime got shafted by the union and their collegues.

      Another union has lost complete control over staff on temporary contracts who now outnumber permanent workers. They too vote for lump sums over percentage increases as they likely won't be around to benefit from percentage increases. The unions have become just as useless as the Labour Party.

      Unless the government legislates for automatic annual pay increases matching inflation workers are now pretty much screwed over and will continue to fall further and further behind. It is a simple argument on behalf of workers – we'll make sure inflation doesn't erode your earnings. That alone is a policy I could get behind.

      • roblogic 3.2.1
        22 September 2024 at 5:30 pm

        Some (ill informed) people probably thought they were getting "Labour-lite", a change of the faces on TV, but basically the same policy direction.

        The Fair Pay legislation and other policies aimed at identifying employees, to stem this trend of making everyone into sole traders, were sorely needed to improve workers' rights and empower unions.

        How many Lab/Green policies that were debated for years and legislated after endless committees and working groups, were just trashed overnight under urgency in Luxo's first 100 days of arson.

      • weka 3.2.2
        22 September 2024 at 5:41 pm

        Neighbour had a power company fault a few Sundays back. Asked the worker if he still got overtime – he said no the workers in the union who do office work voted for losing overtime for a lump sum payment – cause they don't have to do OT. In the end the workers who have to do overtime got shafted by the union and their collegues.

        that would have to be one of the more depressing things I've read in a while.

        • Binders full of women 3.2.2.1
          22 September 2024 at 6:02 pm

          As hard as it is to believe I think in USA the unions and blue collar are more aligned to the Dems than either groups are to NZ Labour. The Michigan teamsters have endorsed Harris… yet in NZ left blogs everytime you hear 'truck' it's followed by 'Nats love trucking, trucking love Nats both hate rail blah blah' shouldn't Labour & left be tryna win back the Teamsters or are they just part of the 'Waitakere men' who have abandoned Labour- never to be welcomed back?

      • Patricia Bremner 3.2.3
        22 September 2024 at 9:35 pm

        But tolls and other sly fees will see you lose.

      • SPC 3.2.4
        22 September 2024 at 9:45 pm

        Those who rejected Labour for not doing enough, remind one of Michigan and Wisconsin Arabs abandoning Harris over Gaza and WB policy and enabling Trump, who enables BN.

        No right to complain, when it gets worse.

        Noble exceptions, those voting Green/TPM and maybe TOP.

        • Descendant Of Smith 3.2.4.1
          22 September 2024 at 10:06 pm

          I switched to Greens some elections back when Sue Bradford put out some sensible benefit policies and for the removal of using force for the purpose of correcting a child bill.

          Labour just continue to disappoint even when they have a firm clear support from the population eg WEAG at that point in time.

    • gsays 3.3
      22 September 2024 at 5:17 pm

      You touch on something else I despair about with the 'left'.

      These articulate voices of the left-Rockel, Davids Slack and Farrier and, to an extent, Trotter, are full of what's wrong with the Nats, but light on the direction Labour should head.

      Perhaps it's because they are too liberal to be any use. The analysis on why Labour lost, is a hint that they are out of touch. It's insulting, the common refrain, that US right wing thinking has a grip on many minds.
      “They rejected the team of 5 million.” Way more than you think felt like they weren’t selected for the team rather than rejecting it.

      Labour gave me little to vote for. Incrementalism when radical reform is needed just don't cut it.

      • roblogic 3.3.1
        22 September 2024 at 5:34 pm

        Chippy is following the tradition of Labour leaders suddenly coming to Jesus while in opposition and seeing the wisdom of CGT and wealth tax.

        It won't last. Labour must first repent of the sins of incrementalism and neoliberalism and apologise for Rogernomics.

        • gsays 3.3.1.1
          22 September 2024 at 5:41 pm

          Apology is one thing, where it shows they mean it is the action they choose to take and how they will break the neo liberal public service/treasury.

    • weka 3.4
      22 September 2024 at 5:39 pm

      good comment rob.

      I would add that this will be an ongoing issue as climate and the polycrisis make people feel more insecure, and be more insecure. We need a strong, proactive alternative that helps people through rather than denying the crisis.

    • SPC 3.5
      22 September 2024 at 9:13 pm

      The boomers voted Brexit in the UK – for the little England of their youth. And us the C of C view of the assimilationist 50's/60's that produced the Hunn Report. And in the USA a part 2 of some sort of 1950's white race nation heritage pre Civil Rights/Voting Rights Act MAGA is being promoted (with some related Jordan Peterson natural order and obedience patriarchy in lockstep with Christian identity nationalism).

      But it's all absent any positive concept of commonality (health care, adequate housing and opportunity for all etc), or co-operation on global issues (foreign aid and climate change action).

      Instead, on the one hand the late 1920's/1930's reprise of economic nationalism and withdrawal from internationalism (to enable regional hegemon) and on the other a demand for allies to re-arm (the MIC sales drive) lest they be undefended and handed over to Russia or China.

      Some would call it, a nostalgia amongst a large group of aging people, as they move into the retirement village phase of life.

      What will posterity will call this time … maybe the wasted years.

  4. gsays 4
    22 September 2024 at 7:13 pm

    Some good news from the provinces.

    Congratulations to the Manawatu Cyclones for winning the Farah Palmer Cup.

    Unbeaten this season, they kept Otago tryless and scoreless in the second half.

    They win promotion to the top tier next year,

    A great result (33-3) from a team with a lot of youngsters, that bodes well for the future.

  5. SPC 5
    22 September 2024 at 7:40 pm

    Not meeting expected international standards is becoming standard practice.

    In July last year, the Labour government announced a plan to make businesses report publicly on their actions to address exploitation risks in their operations and supply chains.

    The do nothing Minister expolains

    She said she agreed it was important but that a new law was not needed to fix it.

    "It is already a crime for slavery, trafficking people. Migrant exploitation is also a crime."

    No risk assessment and no policy to either identify or improve capability to mitigate and manage the crime – there is a law is part of there is nothing to see here approach, called enabling.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/09/22/govt-decision-to-not-advance-modern-slavery-law-criticised/

    • adam 5.1
      22 September 2024 at 8:37 pm

      Of course not, not one of them want to know the sex workers they are fucking are slaves.

      • SPC 5.1.1
        22 September 2024 at 9:54 pm

        We do not allow foreigners to work in the sex industry, but those operating illegally will exploit/have done those foreigners who do so anyway. The lack of management oversight of this, is par for the course of our regulatory regime (as per migrant worker employment and obligations on landlords).

        • adam 5.1.1.1
          23 September 2024 at 2:34 am

          We do not allow foreigners to work in the sex industry

          It is not a realist position.

          "NZPC supports sex workers of any gender, age, and immigration status to quote"

          From the NZPC web site because they are realist, because there is little to no regulatory oversight. More reactionary, after the fact.

          That said, deporting women who have been forced/shuffled into the industry, is something immigration does do. Because they are classy like that.

  6. joe90 6
    22 September 2024 at 10:43 pm

    Renny on Willis and co.

    @CLRenney

    .

    @Amelia__Wade has a great story about the scale of cuts required if the government is to achieve its spending targets. I thought that I might add a little more information to that article. A [thread]

    https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/politics/350423568/why-scale-government-cuts-come-could-dwarf-those-date

    […]

    We don't need to be here. There is no public sector pay crisis, nor a crisis of overemployment in the sector. The actual crisis is one of systematic underinvestment, and cuts will make this worse. We are manufacturing a crisis to manufacture tax cuts. Are we back on track yet?

    https://xcancel.com/CLRenney/status/1837618999947153845

  7. joe90 7
    22 September 2024 at 11:06 pm

    The “only democracy” in the Middle East loathes media they can't control or manufacture.

    .

    DOHA, Sept 22 (Reuters) – Israeli forces raided the bureau of media network Al Jazeera in the West Bank city of Ramallah early on Sunday morning, issuing it with a military order to shut down operations, the network said.

    The Qatari channel aired live footage of Israeli troops entering the office with their weapons drawn and handing a military court order to Ramallah bureau chief Walid al-Omari forcing the bureau to close for 45 days.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-raid-al-jazeera-bureau-west-bank-with-closure-order-2024-09-22/