Open Mike 22/06/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 22nd, 2017 - 229 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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229 comments on “Open Mike 22/06/2017”

  1. Meh … its raining again…

    But its not so bad … less than 3 months til a change of government !!!

    YAY !!! 🙂

    Supertramp – It’s Raining Again – YouTube

  2. Ad 2

    A big team just installed the gas-fired self-resetting rat traps on 1000 hectares of Mt Taranaki:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1706/S00471/worlds-largest-rat-trapping-network-completed-by-community.htm

    There now also are hundreds of them set around my neighborhood, and I’ve installed one myself. I just love all these predator-free stories. Inspiring.

    • The benefits of technology , eh ?

      50 years ago you would have to venture out in the rain with steel capped gummies on using the old style rat traps….

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      It’s going to be interesting to see how that goes. Hopefully it’s good enough.

      Wonder what the maintenance schedule is and how they’re going to maintain that.

      • Molly 2.2.1

        Our local Landcare group is working on a Predator Free initiative and is selling these traps at a discount to residents.

        They require less monitoring than their previous manual traps (which are atill available for free), as they reset. The carcasses are often carried away by other animals, and have no toxins in them.

        They are looking forward to these traps because the level of volunteer time necessary is much lower.

        • Ad 2.2.1.1

          Some of the larger programmes like Ark in the Park seem to be holding back on the gas-fired traps until there are more tests of it operating at real scale.

          Personally I would rather they just got on with it and converted to the full system. It’s much less messy, and of course no poisons used at all. Just chocolate and peanut butter.

          We need all of the remaining forests in the Auckland region fully grid-trapped if we are going to slow the decline of our bird species.

    • mauī 2.3

      You have to wonder about sustainability though. Intensive rodent control has only been around for a decade or two. Rats have been here for around a thousand years.

      • Ad 2.3.1

        Agreed, but this is a breakthrough technique.

        The subantarctic islands have been excellent test beds, and leading to much larger land masses like the Macquarrie and South Georgia groups.
        It’s important not to look at this as a one-hit wonder, but as a programme that has to be sustained as long as we can.

  3. Naw … climate change is bogus, dreamt up originally by a bunch of technocratic Globalists and obscenely rich fascists called the Bilderberg Society. It was hotter in the 1940’s than it is now on average.

    And those bogus figures that were quoted when they first called it ‘ Global warming’ then had to change it to ‘climate change’ because the evidence didn’t match the theory?

    Its caused by a naturally occurring thinning of cloud cover , particularly around the tropics. And cyclical sunspot activity.

    So don’t panic , the Bilderbergers wont get their trillions of unearned carbon tax payers dollars paid into their bank accounts , jobs will stay in the west and not relocated to the third world to take advantage of sweatshop labour , we can stop filling younger people with anxiety about their futures and the world will continue to turn happily despite all the bogus scaremongering.

    Shocking to realize just how easily we can all be had by unelected power hungry rich pratts, … isn’t it.

    Enjoy this morning in this globally warming bloody freezing great outdoors this fine –
    and totally normal – winters day.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [I don’t allow climate change denial under my posts. You are now banned from today’s CC post, and any future posts I write on CC. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you haven’t seen me saying no ‘CC denial’ in any of the CC posts I’ve written in the past year, but if I go and see that you have commented on any in the past and thus seen the moderation notes then you can expect that I will either require an apology for derailing the discussion under my post today or I will issue a ban. You are in moderation until I see an acknowledgement that you have read and understood this note. Please don’t start arguing with me about CC (I suggest a read of the Policy on wasting moderator time) – weka]

    • Ed 3.1

      I hope this is satre.

      • Satre?… you mean ‘ satire’ surely. And no , I most certainly didn’t mean it as satire. And neither does Wikileaks or Rep. Steve Scalise ( the Republican who was shot by anti Trump agitators ) nor did the FBI apparently…

        But don’t just take my word for it … judge for yourself….

        WIKILEAKS Release VIDEO FBI Investigation of Al Gore’s Global …
        Video for WIKILEAKS Release VIDEO FBI Investigation of Al Gore’s Global Warming Carbon TAX▶ 12:59

        • Tony Veitch (not etc) 3.1.1.1

          It’s strange, WK is someone whose posts I normally agree with totally. But there is a funny chink in his armour on the subject of global warming.

          Like Ed, I assumed what he wrote was satire – but it doesn’t appear to be!

          Does that invalidate everything else he has said – of course not – but isn’t human nature a wondrous thing!

          • WILD KATIPO 3.1.1.1.1

            No indeed it is not satire, and nor is it particularly a chink either.

            Nor was the medieval warm period when they grew grapes in England or the freezing snaps that killed Mammoths so fast they died with tussock still in their trunks…

            And as was mentioned in the later clip…. ‘ I don’t think there’s any SUV’s on Venus…

            I think we are so accustomed to thinking in terms of gradual change occurring over millennia ( as we have been taught ) we just cannot comprehend rapid climactic change that happens in our lifetimes , we become alarmed and draw the conclusion that it must be something we as species have caused…

            Where in fact it is natural earth / planetary / solar cycles . The carbon we emit is a drop in the bucket on a global level , barring high density concentrations such as city’s which then become a direct health risk. And as you know , carbon is one of the most common elements on earth.

            But this natural state of affairs also makes us vulnerable to opportunists such as Al Gore and other unscrupulous individuals…

            A fool’s errand: Al Gore’s $15 trillion carbon tax | Watts Up With That?
            https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/05/…/a-fools-errand-al-gores-15-trillion-carbon-tax/

            • Andre 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Where can we get the good stuff on chemtrails? Is HAARP going to turn my pets gay?

              • greywarshark

                Andre
                That is the question for which we are all breathlessly awaiting an answer.

              • xanthe

                ahhh thats why my hamster is gay, i thought is was something i said

                • Andre

                  All hamsters are gay, but they’ll go bi for the right partner. It’s not something you said, and it’s not HAARP. It just is.

            • DoublePlusGood 3.1.1.1.1.2

              https://xkcd.com/1732/
              Go look at the medieval warm period, then go look at the bottom of the comic.
              Natural cycles are very slow. Humans are fast.

              You also mention carbon dioxide.
              Well, have a look at this: https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/24/
              That’s blatantly clear – humans increased CO2 globally from 280 ppm to 400 ppm. That isn’t a drop in the bucket, and it is global, not in cities only.

              Stop lying to yourself.

            • katipo 3.1.1.1.1.3

              I find myself agreeing with my fellow arachnid on many topics, this is not one of them!
              W.K. you seem to be on an Al Gore tangent here. Just because he made some docos on climate change doesn’t make the whole thing fake. If we want the world to change we have to be willing to change our own minds and when it comes to climate change, peer reviewed science is where we need to look for answers not some US politician with his head up a lot of corporate arses.

            • James Thrace 3.1.1.1.1.4

              Something we are agreed upon.

              I liken it to a snowball effect. Gradual at first and then it just goes helter skelter toward the end.

              We are getting to the end. The Greenland Inuits have already said that the sun no longer rises and sets where it should on the solstice, suggesting that bigger forces are at play than anything our self aggrandisement could ever hope to achieve.

            • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.1.1.5

              I’m not sure that I buy your warming denial – but the carbon credit market was never going to work – folk who cheat on their taxes will cheat on their carbon taxes too. And so it proved in NZ.

            • Tricledrown 3.1.1.1.1.6

              Wild katipo read Mobil Exxon’s in house research.
              Then read Royal Dutch Shell’s in house research.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.2

            Does that invalidate everything else he has said

            No, it just further reduces the already diminishing likelihood that his dense screeds are worth reading.

        • Historian Pete 3.1.1.2

          On climate change I neither confirm nor deny.I however witnessed people being arrested in the late sixties over free speech issues.Fifty years later certain people seem to have forgotten the struggle, and that the authorities were repressive to stop free speech.Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it !!!

          • David Mac 3.1.1.2.1

            I think Weka puts the time and effort into climate change posts because they very much believe there is a problem that mankind should do something about. Keen to try and make a difference. When an accepted paradigm it leaves the forum clear for discussions that revolve around making a difference.

            When the forum becomes a ‘yes’/’no’ ping-pong match making a difference takes a back-seat to an ebb and flow that goes nowhere.

            There are bipartisan forums around and the participants do nothing but bat the ‘yes and ‘no’ ball backwards and forward, over years they achieve nothing. In Weka’s posts, it’s a given that we’re making it get warmer.

            What we are going to do about it is far more interesting conversation than ping pong.

            • weka 3.1.1.2.1.1

              Pretty much. I spent many years here as a commenter before authoring, and saw a huge amount of time wasted on climate denial debates that pushed back against the denial but stopped use from working on solutions to the actual problem. We’re out of time now, and people who want to argue about reality have plenty of other places to do it.

              I’m getting to the point that Red is talking about, where people who throw up those blocks to action should now be considered in the same light as people who clad buildings in flammable materials.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.2.2

            No-one’s free speech is being affected here. Thanks for your “concern”.

            • Historian Pete 3.1.1.2.2.1

              I find the mentality fascinating.Throughout history there have been scientific theories that were universally held to be true , that over time have been proved to be false.The people who have disproved the theories have initially been seen as heretical , and treated with hostility.The high priests of the prevailing order have always done all in their power to censor any dissenting voices .It is usually a truth to power situation, with the authorities possessing all the power.Whether they possess the truth is another question.My position on man made climate change is that it is not proven.Nor is the premise that there is no man made climate change. Nor the degree that either is true. I am studying the evidence on both sides of the argument, and so far I am not convinced either way.So I welcome debate. If you don’t welcome debate ,and believe the science is proven, you have in my opinion a closed mind !!!

              • Carolyn_nth

                It’s taken a long time to get climate change taken seriously in the mainstream. A lot of people have tried to suppress and undermine research that shows climate change, over several decades.

              • RedLogix

                Throughout history there have been scientific theories that were universally held to be true , that over time have been proved to be false. The people who have disproved the theories have initially been seen as heretical , and treated with hostility

                All that is true. But you then make the mistake of assuming that ALL heretical beliefs must also be true. Not so. The vast majority of them turn out to be just wrong.

                So how do you tell the difference between an heretical belief that is wrong, and one that just might overturn the common consensus? The answer is that you or I don’t. We don’t get to make that call. The only thing that trumps good science is BETTER science. And the only people who can make that call are the experts in the area.

                Of course heretical beliefs will be resisted by the ‘prevailing order’. This is how it should be, especially when the prevailing ideas and models reliably deliver predictive and useful results. Like when the scientists predict that the sub-polar regions will warm the fastest … and when I go there I can see this is exactly what is happening.

                On the other hand if a heretic can demonstrate a model that works better, is physically and intellectually consistent and delivers results , then yes over time their ideas WILL win out. If it turns out the current CC science has overlooked something fundamental, and we really can belch unlimited amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere with impunity … then so be it.

                But so far the heretics have utterly failed at this. Their data is either misinterpreted, mangled, or just lies. Their models all contradict each other. One week it’s the sun, the next it’s fucking volcanoes. They slag off at climate computer models, while typing on a computer and daily using all manner of things all designed and tested using software tools.

                They spout risible conspiracy theories that propose tens of thousands of researchers, in hundreds of institutions, in dozens of countries have all secretly conspired to fake the same data, the same theories and same models for more than a hundred years since Arrhenius. With NFC as to how absurd that sounds to someone with even basic academic experience.

                And then refuse to look at the documented evidence that their entire edifice of intellectual bullshit is the outcome of a manufactured campaign of confusion, fear and doubt bought and paid for by a small group of fossil carbon enterprises using the same techniques first used by tobacco companies to protect their profits. And for no other reason.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Do you have an imaginary friend who thinks scientists “prove” things? Do they know about paragraphs? Newsflash: science deals in probabilities, not proofs. Here’s Gavin Schmidt of NASA (from his essay “Unsettled Science”).

                …knowledge about science is not binary – science isn’t either settled or not settled. This is a false and misleading dichotomy. Instead, we know things with varying degrees of confidence – for instance, conservation of energy is pretty well accepted, as is the theory of gravity (despite continuing interest in what happens at very small scales or very high energies), while the exact nature of dark matter is still unclear. The forced binary distinction implicit in the phrase is designed to misleadingly relegate anything about which there is still uncertainty to the category of completely unknown. i.e. that since we don’t know everything, we know nothing.

                Personally, I can see how eg. CO2 is a greenhouse gas by considering its atomic structure. If the addition of millions of tonnes of the stuff to the atmosphere didn’t cause the ice to melt (etc. etc.) that would be quite surprising.

                As for the “alternative” “explanations”, what RL said: they’re a mess of confusing and contradictory rhetoric, and there is evidence that this is deliberate.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.3

            You don’t seem to be learning anything at all.

            I suggest reading the policy.

          • weka 3.1.1.2.4

            I wouldn’t let someone derail my posts with flat earth or black people are less smart than white people arguments either. No-one’s free speech has been denied, I moved posts to the appropriate place. WK is free to say what the like in Open Mike (within the rules of the site). I also put some boundaries in place for behaviour, which is very normal for humans. There are lots of places where we don’t get to do and say whatever we want. Beyond that, I’ll place more importance on the free time of authors than the free speech of people who lack respect for the people who run this place.

      • greywarshark 3.1.2

        I think this is satyr-like. We can’t afford to be light-hearted, jokey about the death of our known planet. The unknown planet, will remain unknown to us.

    • Okey dokey.

      [RL: Just want to add my support for weka’s action here. It saddened me to read what you have written Wild Katipo. I personally enjoy your broad contribution here a lot, but we are past the point where CC denial is acceptable discourse, any more than we tolerate blatant bigotry.]

      • gsays 3.2.1

        Hi WK, I have a touch of empathy for where you are coming from, a mate of mine for 10 years has said something similar.

        What about yes to your opinions and then add the 100 odd years of human use of fossil fuels etc on top of the cycle you elude to.
        I can not fathom the amount of damage to our environment by humans use of oil for fertiliser, plastics, fuel etc.

    • Bill 3.3

      sheesh – I honestly thought WK was being very dark and cynical. But no, seems not.

  4. Nope again , folks …

    Al Gore: I Was Wrong About Global Warming… | Learn … – YouTube
    Video for anonymous global warming hoax you tube▶ 36:19

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • And the last clip was put out by Anonymous… btw…

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1

        This graph was put out by Nature.

        So was this video.

        My advice is stop filling your mind with junk bullshit.

        • WILD KATIPO 4.1.1.1

          LOL … nature . Exactly.

          Not man made carbon emissions.

          Thank you.

          • garibaldi 4.1.1.1.1

            Well WK ,you’ve got me bewildered on your epiphany too.
            Can I ask you about your thoughts on 9/11?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.2

            Yes, human carbon emissions are raising the CO2 content of the atmosphere, which in turn is warming the planet. Melting ice is a symptom of this warming.

            Hahah lol, now who’s laughing? Stop filling your mind with gobshite and learn some Physics.

          • marty mars 4.1.1.1.3

            WK I thought you were a conpiracy idiot when you called Clinton a murderer in reply to me. Glad you’ve gone full lost it mode now no need to wonder anymore.

            • Barfly 4.1.1.1.3.1

              that other people have faults doesn’t mean you are free of them

              • I know I have plenty of faults more than your mind could concieve.

                Edit. I took all my witty insults to you out of my comment. That’s my gift to you for today lol.

                • McFlock

                  lol

                  my insults aren’t usually witty, and with some commenters the amount of “you fucking moron”-style phrases I need to remove from my replies before posting is quite substantial.

  5. The McCarten ‘non-partisan’ Campaign for Change sham is exposed at Politik:

    Labour Party volunteer workers rebel over living conditions.

    It also reveals how Labour are using foreign students to do unpaid work and putting them in substandard housing conditions. And they may also be breaching immigration regulations.

    • BM 5.1

      Unbelievable hypocrisy by Labour.

      Import foreign students to work for free and stick them in shitty rundown accommodation while at the same time running a campaign against foreign students taking jobs and people having to live in substandard housing.

      Hard to believe.

      • David Mac 5.1.1

        Most new programs have teething problems and it would appear there are shortfalls in the planning and delivery. Matt McCarten is an ideas man. Ideas men are only as good as the staff that chase them around making all their dreams come true. I suspect some break-down there, it happens when budgets are tight and assistance often voluntary.

        In your haste to point out “Ha! Gotcha, they’re doing the same thing as they accuse others of doing.” As I say, we all have hiccups when trying something new, it’s how those hiccups are managed that matters.

        How would you react to a phone call from me BM? “Hiya BM, I’ve got a couple of students that are helping us with the election, can they billet in that little flat under your place until after the election?”

        I think you’d say “Can’t you stick them in a motel somewhere?”

        The accommodation wasn’t suitable, Labour are fixing the problem by billeting them amongst Labour supporters. I think it’s a quality solution, a Kiwi solution. I wonder if National HQ would be ringing members and asking if someone could move in with them for 3 months? I think they’d be banging them up in some concrete block motel unit on a busy intersection in South Auckland.

        Wow, these kids are going to homestay with Kiwi families, they’ll go home with fabulous memories and if they wish, handy campaign skills.

        • Siobhan 5.1.1.1

          I have no problem at all with a political party trying to engage with young folk and encourage enrollment, but the scheme is clearly a Labour Party one, so it seems odd to have presented it as anything else.

          As for cheap (free) foreign labour being housed in substandard accommodation, this wasn’t a problem that ‘evolved’, it was an issue from day one… we have enough problems with the orchardists housing workers in Flaxmere hovels and shipping containers, we don’t need that sort of carry on from the Party who are supposed to be sorting these issues out for us.

          This isn’t exactly a ‘Momentum Movement’, mores the pity.

    • Johan 5.2

      PG, Is this the same rag which said, “Barclay was the victim of an organised campaign against him,” and other excuses in order to avoid Todd from taking responsibility. Why am I not surprised.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1

        +111

      • Enough is Enough 5.2.2

        Yes it is the same rag. But that is beside the point.

        Is what Harman is saying true?

        • BM 5.2.2.1

          Yep, doesn’t seem to be bothering anyone one here though, which surprises me.

          Endless posts on slumlords and the exploitation of foreign students yet not a squeak about this.

          Obviously different when it’s your team doing something dodgy, no idea how any person could take Labour seriously after this.

          • You_Fool 5.2.2.1.1

            Whilst I know the obvious response to this, the NZ Herald story leaves me wondering how much Labour leadership knew and how much of this was going on during the time McCarten was a part of Labour, and how much has happened since. There needs to be a proper investigation into this to determine exactly what happened, and that should happen before terms like “Labour Sweat Shop” get banded about.So far it looks like a “Campaign of Change, a Labour affiliated project, runs over-crowded residences and potentially exploiting students

            Not that is that catchy, however, that appears to be all that has actually been determined (other than Joyce & Rimmer sayig otherwise).

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11880417

            I do like the hypocrisy from everyone involved though… A) the something is not so bad if it is my side and it is being blown out of proportion, and B) Obviously when it is the other side the worst possible interpretation is true and the opposition are hypocrites of the worst degree.

          • Draco T Bastard 5.2.2.1.2

            No, it bothers us but we’re taking the report with a truckload of salt considering that the source is a National Party cheerleader.

            And mistakes do happen. The article does say that Labour are looking in to it which is more than what National do with slumlords.

          • patricia bremner 5.2.2.1.3

            Labour have taken an oversubscribed programme begun by Matt.
            They have met with the people concerned and given them options.
            Andrew Little has said “all that matters is the people.” He fronted media with sincerity. He said “this is not a good look”. “Andrew Kirton has taken over”
            As a Labour supporter, I am sorry they have been left to deal with the fall-out.
            Sometimes people over reach, and someone tidies up.
            That was not deliberate or covered up in any way, nor criminal.
            Sadly trolls will use this against the party, as they need a diversion currently.

            • Bill 5.2.2.1.3.1

              This is from the pamphlet “2017 Labour Campaign Fellowship” that NZ Labour originally sent out.

              Given the global political climate, there has never been a better time to get on the campaign trail and to work towards a Labour victory in New Zealand’s most important city, Auckland.

              http://stage.wp.hum.uu.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/181/2017/04/170424-2-New-Zealand-Labour-Party-2017-Campaign-Fellowship.pdf

              Tell me that’s not dishonestly leveraging off the “global political climate” that’s seen a resurgence of social democracy in the UK and USA, that NZ Labour are most assuredly not a part of.

              I said in another comment that I suspected this whole thing was probably predicated on misleading the likes of enthusiastic Sanders supporters who thought they could experience a Sanders type groundswell in another country. Now I’ve read the literature, I’m not sure it’s not worse than that.

      • Yabby 5.2.3

        Message or messenger?

        Are you saying this story isn’t true, that it has no validity.

        • ianmac 5.2.3.1

          The publicity document says twice, “We are sorry that we cannot pay you for your work.” So the claim that they were not getting pay was what they signed up for. No deceit there.

    • Barfly 5.3

      Pete George I believe you are essentially dishonest.

    • Gabby 5.4

      I’m sure Matt will have a perfectly clear, legit and not at all shifty explanation.

    • Bill 5.5

      Is that the same ‘programme’ that Hone Harawira was having a laugh at a month or so ago (enlisting Americans to persuade people to vote Labour or some such), that plenty enough people said was just Hone spouting bullshit?

      Yup. Seems so.

      Labour is shipping in foreign support for its election campaign with dozens of United States’ Democrats signalling an interesting in helping with the campaign. The move was uncovered by Te Tai Tokerau contender Hone Harawira, who says it’s “really dumb” of Labour to enlist foreign support “to tell Maori people how to vote”. But it’s been seized on by Te Tai Tokerau MP Kelvin Davis as an example of Harawira’s “desperate” attempts to win the seat.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11841952

      • McFlock 5.5.1

        edit: updated reading article

        Ah – so the “bullshit” was largely about how he characterised it – “tell Maori how to vote”. Oh, and getting pissy about overseas volunteers after jumping in bed with KDC’s cash.

        • Bill 5.5.1.1

          I don’t really give a monkey’s about money from a NZ resident. And I don’t really give a monkey’s about overseas volunteers aiding campaign work.

          But seeing as how Labour just released an immigration policy that Nigel Farage could have penned, this simply and rather deservedly isn’t going to end well for Labour.

          Waiting for the posts that echo their “talking points” to hit 🙂

          • McFlock 5.5.1.1.1

            have fun with that. I’m sure you’ll find your bias confirmed. /sarc

            • Bill 5.5.1.1.1.1

              Are you meaning my ‘bias’ to be the observation from reading their policies that NZ Labour and UKIP have very similar ideas on immigration?

              Or are you meaning my ‘bias’ from multiple observations that NZ Labour are nowt but a pack of liberal incompetents, who might soon be seen to be working through some weird Theresa May type election strategy – even though the field is wide open for a troupe of ragged monkeys to rather convincingly take the Beehive?

              I’ve got too many fairly well considered opinions to know what bias you’re referring to there McFlock!

              • McFlock

                That’s the stuff, yeah.

                • Bill

                  So you had nothing at all actually in mind – just a kind of preemptive ad hominem lashing out by way of nobly defending a political party.

                  • McFlock

                    You were waiting for the posts that echo their “talking points” to hit. I’m sure that whatever post you read, you’ll see the echoes of “talking points”.

                    Anyone who thinks the NZLabour immigration policy is “very similar” to UKIP’s could probably see anything they damned well want.

                    • Bill

                      If there are posts submitted that act by way of damage control and that don’t offer much beyond a parroting of official Labour Party responses, then yes, the post can reasonably be said to be built around “talking points”.

                      Of course, the strategy at the moment might be to pull up the covers and close both eyes in the hope it all goes away. Given that nothing’s up so far, I’m suspecting that’s the game plan thus far. (Maybe there’ll be a line or two constructed by tomorrow that someone can spin on?)

                      Meanwhile.

                      You obviously haven’t set the two policies of NZ Labour and UKIP side by side and read them McFlock. If you had, you’d be well aware that they share the same basic thrust and rely on some of the same justifications for stemming immigration.

                      And you’d be aware (if you set down a third document – UK Labour’s immigration) that both the aforementioned policies are a blue million miles away from a social democratic immigration policy.

                    • weka

                      But doesn’t UK Labour seek to not reduce immigration? I haven’t compared all three policies, but I suspect you are leaving out a critical point here, which is the ideological lines being drawn around whether it’s ok ever to reduce immigration numbers or let them keep increasing.

                    • Bill

                      UK Labour flat stick refused to issue any immigration targets, and also very explicitly excluded foreign students from any immigration numbers.

                      The reason UK Labour refuses to issue ‘targets’ is because they quite rightly point to the fact that a capitalist economy will go through phases where the rate of immigration needs to be increased as well as phases where it needs to be decreased. It’s not a blanket either/or scenario.

                    • McFlock

                      You obviously haven’t set the two policies of NZ Labour and UKIP side by side and read them McFlock. If you had, you’d be well aware that they share the same basic thrust and rely on some of the same justifications for stemming immigration.

                      I found one comment where you made a big deal about how Robertson and a UKIP guy said that the policies were about immigration, not immigrants, and recall I think that you did a more in depth post.

                      Thing is, even if the policies were similar in wording, UKIP are doing it from the “oppressed English” perspective, and I suspect their announced policy is a stepping stone towards a white-britain objective. NZLabour, I think, are honestly stating the full extent of what they believe is necessary to address basic economic problems NZ faces.

                      But that having been said, I don’t think the policies match up as well as you think. Sure, they both talk about infrastructure pressure, but that’s understandable in NZ. Dunno about the UK. I disagree that immigration overly affects infrastructure pressures, but the pressures do exist and are serious.
                      They both talk about limiting immigration for a few years, but Labour talks net – UKIP talks gross. Subtle, but actually a very different level of emphasis.

                      So I think that the similarities you speak of are at best, er, “skin deep”… 🙂

                    • weka

                      The reason UK Labour refuses to issue ‘targets’ is because they quite rightly point to the fact that a capitalist economy will go through phases where the rate of immigration needs to be increased as well as phases where it needs to be decreased. It’s not a blanket either/or scenario.

                      Which is pretty much what NZ Labour said too.

                    • Bill

                      So, you haven’t read them, in spite of being to comments where the links were provided.

                      The Robertson Nutall comparison was in light of both being accused of racism with respects to their, much more than skin deep, similar immigration policies and both offering up an almost identical response. And then the troubling bit that you miss – Nutall getting howled down in a live TV debate as opposed to (it seems) some quiet sage nodding going on in NZ.

                    • McFlock

                      probably read them at the time to see if you had a point. Don’t recall being overly impressed.

                      I could go back and double check my impressions, but I can’t really be bothered. It’s all a bit tangential to my basic position that you’re not exactly impartial when it comes to interpreting NZLabour or anyone who defends it.

                    • Bill

                      @ Weka.

                      That’s nothing at all like the approach NZ Labour have taken.(There is nothing in their policy acknowledging that immigration flows sometimes need to increase) They’ve committed to reducing immigration by ~ 30 000 – mostly through targeting students (people that UK Labour has specifically excluded from immigration numbers)

                    • Bill

                      When did I ever claim to be impartial? I form reasonably intelligent opinions. Nothing impartial about that.

                    • McFlock

                      there should at least be the attempt to look at the facts in an impartial way, and from those draw your opinion, surely.

                    • weka

                      That’s nothing at all like the approach NZ Labour have taken. They’ve committed to reducing immigration by ~ 30 000 – mostly through targeting students (people that UK Labour has specifically excluded from immigration numbers)

                      the bit about adjusting immigration up and down in response to the capitalist economy is similar. It’s not like NZ Labour are going immigration per se is bad and we should always limit it. They’re saying what we’re doing at the moment isn’t working and we need to turn it down for a while until we sort these other issues out.

                      I don’t see what the problem with the student thing is, unless one takes the position that immigration should alway be allowed and that reductions in numbers is always bad.

                    • Bill

                      Precisely what I do McFlock. You missed the bit about allowing context and precedent to have a reasonable influence too.

                    • McFlock

                      You missed the bit about allowing context and precedent to have a reasonable influence too.

                      This would be why it’s a fairly bold claim to suggest that NZLabour and fucking UKIP mean roughly the same thing, even if they happen to say roughly the same words.

                    • Bill

                      NZ Labour have not one thing to say about immigration increasing. Nothing.

                      The ‘problem’ with students is that denying them work visas does nothing for any supposed stresses and strains on infrastructure and services, which is what NZ Labour is basing it’s policy on. That, and students aren’t immigrants or even residents. They are here on a temporary basis to study before the overwhelming majority leave the country having made a worthwhile contribution to NZ in the interim.

                      edit – I should add. UK Labour, again in stark contrast to NZ Labour (and UKIP) ,were also explicit that they would not use mis-management (run down infrastructure) as an excuse to put the boot in on immigrants or prospective immigrants.

                    • Bill

                      So now instead of trying to approach facts with a degree of impartiality, the idea is to willfully interpret words differently depending on some tribal allegiance or some such? 🙄

                    • McFlock

                      the idea is to willfully interpret words differently depending on some tribal allegiance or some such?

                      Well, the track record of the speakers and the parties they represent, anyway. That counts as context.

      • marty mars 5.5.2

        Did people call bullshit on Hone on that? I remember it coming up but …

        • Bill 5.5.2.1

          Here’s a wee snippet of commentary that followed you bringing it to peoples’ attention here.

          Open Mike 20/04/2017

          • McFlock 5.5.2.1.1

            Fair call, he happened to be closer to the mark than usual, my bad.

            I mean, it wasn’t a telemarketing campaign to get votes for Labour (as he portrayed it), but it did actually involve people coming from the US (probably not Trump supporters though), so he did get that much right.

            And then in the end of that thread Karen was pretty much bang on.

          • marty mars 5.5.2.1.2

            Classic -my apologies bill I gave you a hard time for the same imo lapse a bit ago. I forgot all about that. Oh no! I’ve got billshititis arrrrggggg

            • McFlock 5.5.2.1.2.1

              Me too, but I’m sure we would have remembered the details if we were being interviewed by the cops 🙂

  6. bearded git 6

    on RNZ guyon just now trying to trip peters up over Barclay, but Peters had him on toast. This is the simplest scandal I have ever seen says Winnie.

    • Maui 6.1

      That is what RNZ pays Guyon to do, I can’t see anything sinister in that.

      Winston learnt a few survival tricks while working in Australian mines. He could be a good chair for a Pike River Board of Inquiry were the government to change.

      I can’t see that happening under Prime MInister Paula Bennett.

  7. Carolyn_nth 7

    Meanwhile, Coleman is under fire over the government’s record on health care. Bet Coleman is cheering Barclay.

    RNZ: “Coleman grilled over ‘in progress’ Health Ministry review”

    A performance review of the embattled Ministry of Health is expected to be highly critical of the ministry’s leadership team, according to sector sources.

    Sector sources indicated to RNZ the review was expected to be highly critical of ministry leadership.

    It followed the revelation the ministry last month incorrectly allocated $38 million to DHBs and last Friday asked for the money back so it could be reallocated.

    That forced financially stretched DHBs to go back to the drawing board with their budgeting for the next financial year starting in July.

    Some DHB bosses told RNZ under condition of anonymity yesterday the budget blunder was the straw that had broken the camel’s back in the DHBs’ relationship with the ministry.

    Canterbury DHB member Jo Kane told RNZ the combative nature of working with the senior management was extraordinary.

    NZ current state of health care – it’s impacting negatively on large numbers of people’s lives.

    • Ethica 7.1

      The Minister is now personally attacking elected DHB members. Not a good look.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

        That’s typical National: When their policies inevitably cause problems they attack the people who bring those problems to light.

  8. jcuknz 8

    I wonder when or if polies will tumble to the fact with population increase and rising costs it would be grossly incompetent if allocations did not increase instead spinning the tale every time they are questioned?

  9. infused 9

    Except these temps have happened there before, well over 100 years ago.

    [RL: Last warning. CC denial is not tolerated in this thread.]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [I don’t allow climate change denial under my posts. I suspect you are well aware of this, so take this as a warning. If I see you running CC denial lines under any of my posts again I will ban you site wide for wasting my moderator time. You are now in moderation until I see an acknowledgement of this note – weka]

    • Barfly 9.1

      Climate change denial? Lol you really cover the whole spectrum don’t you?

    • weka 9.2

      You are in moderation, please see note above.

    • infused 9.3

      Man made climate change is what I deny. I really don’t give a shit if you believe that or not.

      [I also don’t give a shit what you believe. What I care about is whether you will waste my time as a moderator in the future. I see nothing to suggest you won’t, so am going to put a ban in place now. 6 weeks. If I ever see you running CC denial lines under my posts again I will ban you site wide for much longer. Read the policy about wasting moderator time. – weka]

  10. The Chairman 10

    Pay current rates and potentially receive nothing or pay more and potentially be paid out?

    Insurance that is more likely to pay claims, would cost more – Insurance Ombudsman.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/93667156/more-reliable-life-insurance-would-mean-higher-premiums

  11. ianmac 11

    Pundit does not open in Firefox or Chrome yesterday or today.
    Anyone else able to get in? No signal no response blank.
    http://www.pundit.co.nz/

    • The Chairman 12.1

      It’s headlining on Stuff.

      • David C 12.1.1

        Yip I am sure weka or MS will be penning a post as we speak to rail against slave workers being exploited for zero pay whilst living in poor conditions.

        Any one know if these poor saps were lured here on working visas or are they tourists?

        [Read the Policy. Commenters don’t get to tell authors what to write about, or have a go at them about what they don’t write about. We’re all volunteers here and none of us have much spare time. Bear in mind that authors here do the work to provide *you with a space to comment irrespective of the value of your comments. Feel free to submit a Guest Post for consideration if you feel strongly that a topic should be covered, but I’m guessing you just want other people to do the work for you. – weka]

        [fucks sake, it’s like herding bloody ferrets here today. Just to put this in context, I spent my spare time this morning writing a post and moderating several people who should know better, and I haven’t had the chance yet to catch up on whatever has happened with Labour on this, other than to see a tweet that Andrew Little fronted up and owned it this morning. Get a clue, and do something useful, like perhaps put up a link with commentary so people can inform themselves, instead of just sitting in the comments and having a moan – weka]

        • David C 12.1.1.1

          weka.
          No where did I tell anyone what to write. My tongue was firmly in my cheek. Did I need to tag that as sarcasm for you?

          [any time you invoke the authors you need to take extra care. How would I know if you were being sarcastic or not. – weka]

      • Molly 12.1.2

        The articles on both the Herald and Politik are lacking coherence and detail.

        They sound like internships at political campaigns that follow the US model, of no pay. However, some internships charge for inclusion, which does not seem to be the case here. An Campaign for Change intended to be an inclusive movement I understand, similar to Momentum perhaps.

        Given the very low standard of paid accommodation that even our NZ state houses supply, the complaints about the accommodation offered need to be put into perspective:

        “POLITIK has been sent photographs showing:

        Cramped dormitory alcoves
        A broken and unusable shower
        Bathroom cupboard doors hanging off their hinges
        Unfinished construction work with material piled beside mattresses”

        Is that it? Some suggestions.
        – Marae accommodation is usually in an wharenui, move the mattresses to an open space. Healthier, and less restrictive.
        – Use another shower.
        – Keep your toiletries in your toilet bag
        – Move the materials out of the way.

        Internships are not paid employment, and I would prefer that our youth are encouraged to get involved, participate and become vocal. But the issue is not one that seems to warrant such censure from the information that is at hand.

        Does provide distraction from Barclay though? (Privacy Act, refusal to cooperate with Police, Police dropping the case, PM lying, PM forgetting, PM statement where he forgot to lie, Barclay implying the PM lied, Barclay forgetting, Barclay remembering when he told the truth but only from a lying perspective, Barclay reiterating staff privacy abuse, PM fund being used to pay off staff…)

        Oh look! A cupboard door off it’s hinges, and people not being paid for volunteer work they have signed up to!

        • Molly 12.1.2.1

          In terms of volunteering overseas, I think it is important to have the specialised skills that are needed by the population you visit. Unless you do, it is superfluous.

          For unskilled volunteers looking to gain experience and personal enhancement only, I am inclined to agree with Ivan Illich – To Hell with Good Intentions

        • Gabby 12.1.2.2

          Accommodation is payment, right?

          • Molly 12.1.2.2.1

            If you are asking for my definition:

            “Stable, healthy affordable and accessible accommodation is a requirement every person on earth, so that they can participate and positively contribute to the community and environment in which they live.”

            But I’m guessing you have your own definition. And your payment question was to segue into a tirade about paid workers rights and conditions of work. Which are all valid when applied universally. But you are likely to pick and choose which negates your application.

            Go ahead.

            Explain how so many of the homeless in NZ are avoiding paying taxes because they have not got accommodation and so avoid receiving “payments” that everyone else does. Cunning on a level of Panama Trust tax avoiders no doubt.

            • Gabby 12.1.2.2.1.1

              I wasn’t asking for your definition. Accommodation in return for work is payment. If these ‘fellows’ can refuse to carry out tasks without any repercussions, I guess it could be argued they’re not being ‘paid’.

        • The Chairman 12.1.2.3

          “The articles on both the Herald and Politik are lacking coherence and detail.”

          Nevertheless, Little told NZME “I can’t deny it – it is embarrassing.”

          • Molly 12.1.2.3.1

            I don’t know what Little can or can’t deny. What is the “it” that was asked?

            • The Chairman 12.1.2.3.1.1

              Little was commenting on the mess that has occurred in regards to this Labour-linked scheme.

          • bwaghorn 12.1.2.3.2

            yes Little fessed up apologised and labour have moved to fix the problem , as opposed to the nats lying and denying , paying of those they have wronged and and other scum behavior, i might vote Little just on this display of integrity .

            • The Chairman 12.1.2.3.2.1

              Denying it would have dug a lager hole.

              It wasn’t a good look for Labour, despite Little fronting. And even he admitted it was embarrassing.

              The way ACT is talking, there could still be more to come on this.

              The timing couldn’t be much worse what with the election coming up and Labour’s stance on immigration. Moreover, Labour provided the Nats with a distraction, just as they were getting hammered over the Barclay and English debacle.

              Whether it’s done much damage, guess we’ll find out in the next poll.

        • McFlock 12.1.2.4

          I dunno, it does sound a bit shit to live in for several weeks. Make do for a few days maybe, but not for an extended period. Although in that situation, you might be tempted to get a screwdriver from the Warehouse and screw the door back on. But depending on how many showers are available and how many people are there, a broken shower can really foul up the morning schedule.

          McCarten fucked up and accepted too many people when he should have had a cutoff and a list of alternates. And the accommodation was also insufficient.

          • Molly 12.1.2.4.1

            Is this a Labour Party initiative or is it a separate entity and movement? The articles state it is separate but ignores that and continue as if it is a full Labour Party project.

            I personally think we need to motivate our own young people, but don’t understand why people would want to come to NZ to volunteer unless they have a false idea of what is on offer.

            The NZ political scene is not as charged as others, the overseas media don’t often relate NZ issues in depth. It would be interesting to have comments from a couple of those involved, to understand what attracted them here and what they expected. If those expectations were warranted by erroneous information, then that shows bad organisation indeed. If they were just ill-informed then that bad organisation was exacerbated by a lack of personal fact-finding.

            • McFlock 12.1.2.4.1.1

              Well, going from the article it started as a Labour campaign programme but became an independent programme to generally get out the vote. However it was organised by Labour so Labour still has some obligations.

              The volunteer exchange thing is pretty common – people learn new skills, get and provide a fresh perspective, and it builds relationships between left wing parties. There’s a certain amount of couch-surfing expected, and you provide free help to your hosts, but there are reasonable limits to those expectations.

              • Molly

                Thanks McFlock.

                “The volunteer exchange thing is pretty common – people learn new skills, get and provide a fresh perspective, and it builds relationships between left wing parties. “

                I understand that reasoning, but think that the decision to use non-domestic volunteers is short-sighted and indicates a lack of vision. If it was a question of motivation then at least making an attempt to address that lack in NZ youth, would have been a good start to get momentum to get them to vote.

                “There’s a certain amount of couch-surfing expected, and you provide free help to your hosts, but there are reasonable limits to those expectations.”

                That’s true. But the photos and the complaints so far are not high exploitation. I would like to see more detail about the length of internship, the offers made, and the concerns they have rather than what has been provided in the news so far.

                • McFlock

                  Hey, if they come, use ’em. Otherwise you’re trying to run a campaign as well as find interesting things to take the tourists too, when they actually want to find out how a campaign is run in NZ.

            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.4.1.2

              I personally think we need to motivate our own young people, but don’t understand why people would want to come to NZ to volunteer unless they have a false idea of what is on offer.

              Learning how other parties of similar mindset operates can produce valuable new ideas.

        • mauī 12.1.2.5

          It probably gives you an insight into the state of one of our marae that is likely running itself into the ground in order to serve the community, providing dozens of health and social services on next to nothing. Meanwhile at WINZ and in the New Zealand Health system money is splashed about wasted and people lives are thrown into disarray.

    • Andre 12.2

      All the labourites are busy with their self-flagellation.

    • McFlock 12.3

      Well, seems like mccarten made a complete hash of things.

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 12.4

      Compare and contrast the way that Andrew Little has fronted in this matter

      ‘It’s the wrong thing to do’: Little on ‘sweat shop’ complaints over Labour-linked scheme

      with
      the underhanded way in which National dealt with Sky City, Saudi sheep, GCSB spying for Groser, appointment of Ian Fletcher and of course the latest Todd Barclay coverup

      • McFlock 12.4.1

        Andrew Little can’t remember McCarten mentioning any of this, or remember the extensive questioning from the police about it, or remember paying hush money from the party leader’s fund… that’s how he’d handle it if he were a nat, rather than someone with integrity.

        • David C 12.4.1.1

          Has Mr Little fronted yet about paying McCarten with tax payer monies or is he still telling porkies?

          • McFlock 12.4.1.1.1

            what the fuck are you talking about now?

            • David C 12.4.1.1.1.1

              http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/83952502/Labour-spin-doctor-not-doing-campaign-work-rather-public-outreach-Andrew-Little

              or this

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11704572

              but it turns dear Matt has been luring slaves from overseas under false pretenses on behalf of his masters.

              Industrial strength hypocrisy doesnt begin to cover it.

              Its going to be great fun in the election campaign with Labour wanting to expel foreign students !

              • McFlock

                Oh, I see now. You’re just a fucking liar.

                “Get out the vote” campaigns aren’t “vote for Labour” campaigns.

                • David C

                  So up above where you describe the luring of these slaves from overseas as a Labour party program out of control you lied?
                  Matt was getting paid for by the tax payer. In the campaign office.
                  Little denied this and lied.

                  But hey, we all know if the political whore Matt McCarten is involved its going to be a fuckup. No surprises there. Tax thief mongrel should have gone to prison.

                  • David C

                    the potential mass immigration fraud is far more interesting tho.
                    I wonder how that will play out.

                  • McFlock

                    okay:
                    1: “luring of slaves”? Fuck you.

                    2: I said “going by the article”. If it used parliamentary services funding, then at no time could it have been a Labour Party campaigning tool.

                    So my interpretation of the article might have been wrong. This was unintentional, unlike calling volunteers “slaves”. That’s the difference between being “incorrect” and being “a liar” like you.

                    • David C

                      Ohhhh McFlock…having a wee tanty are we?

                      [pull your head in i.e. stick to the politics and the debates. Read the Policy – flaming is not allowed. I’ve done enough moderating today so am on a short fuse. Count this as a warning – weka]

                    • David C

                      any answer on if Little has fronted on his lies about MCCartens wages?

                    • McFlock

                      What did he say that wasn’t true?

                    • David C

                      weka.

                      So McFlock calling me a “fucking liar” isnt flaming or rate as having a tanty?

                      LOL

                      [banned for one week. I suggest you read the Policy in regards to wasting moderator time. – weka]

                      [just had a look at the back end moderation list and see you’ve been banned multiple times this year already for similar behaviour. Extending ban out to 2 months. If I see you doing this stuff when you come back, expect a much longer ban. – weka]

                    • David C

                      McFlock.

                      Labour leader Andrew Little says his adviser Matt McCarten’s taxpayer-funded salary is within the rules because McCarten will be doing “outreach” work for Little rather than campaign work.

                      Total lie.

                    • McFlock

                      I guess parliamentary services will be onto him then. Or not. Have a nice holiday.

              • Barfly

                “Luring slaves” …seriously?

                • David C

                  Yeah seriously.

                  “Maori Party co-leader Marama Fox said it was “slave labour”.

                  “They came from the States thinking they were getting something when they were doing something else, that is slave labour, not free labour, and they should be ashamed of themselves,” Fox said.

                  “There is a stench in the air, and it’s the stench of hypocrisy.””

                  • weka

                    So are the interns being punished if they don’t do the work they are told to do? e.g. beaten. Is their movement restricted? Are they under economic duress so that if they don’t do the work they won’t be able to eat? Are they being kept away from family and friends and forced to work?

                  • Ahh, so someone not involved, who has something to gain from characterising it a certain way has said it was slave labour…. Yeah, sounds legit…

                    This is why there needs to be an actual investigation… so far it is labour saying “we will sort this thing out, even though we had handed over management of it awhile back” and all parties that oppose them jumping up and down and sprouting weird hyperbole statements

          • greywarshark 12.4.1.1.2

            David C
            What does the C stand for. Curly pig’s tale?

    • Bill 12.5

      Picking that “Campaign For Change NZ” gave the impression to young Sanders supporters that something exciting was afoot in NZ politics.

      Then what? They get here and realise that the “change” amounted to the tired old drudge of swapping out for the mere sake of swapping in. ..a bit like campaigning for Clinton in other words.

      • Sabine 12.5.1

        they are all Sanders supporters?

        • Bill 12.5.1.1

          I don’t mean to suggest they all are. My point is that I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the basic “target audience” as far as the US goes.

          There’s a link to the original promotional literature in this subsequent comment.

          Open Mike 22/06/2017

          • Carolyn_nth 12.5.1.1.1

            This twitter thread from Russell Brown presents his view on the intern matter

            There’s also other stuff been linked on twitter about the Marae where the interns have been staying. There’s been articles for a while about some local Māori not being happy about the way some others are dominating the Marae.

            Apparently it’s the same Marae where the Alliance Party was launched in the 1990s.

            • Bill 12.5.1.1.1.1

              Thanks for the links. Have just listened to Andrew Little on Checkpoint and he seems to be awfully uninformed…

              Anyway (slightly tangential). I wonder how he squares the line that interns haven’t got anything to do with immigration because they are only here for a set time, with NZ Labour immigration policy that is targeting international students who are also only here for a set time…

              • weka

                From what I could tell, some of the problem with international students is that they were being promised jobs afterwards, and too many of the courses were substandard.

                Temporary at 15 or 115 students is one thing. Thousands is a different matter. I see it more with tourism, which is a huge burden on the country despite the money it makes. And extra million or two people in NZ every year. They’re temporary, but they impact on resource use and space.

                • Bill

                  There are sham courses. They can be identified and shut down. If that means bringing education under the public umbrella again, then good.

                  No international student I’ve known has been able to just get a job and citizenship off the back of studying here. A few have managed to settle, and had to go through the same expensive and bollocks process as any other immigrant.

                  Denying work visas will not make any difference to international student numbers, but may mean that financially marginal ones are kept out and richer, perhaps in some cases more mediocre ones, will fill the gap they leave.

                  And again. Seeing as how NZ Labour based its policy on this notion that infrastructure and services are strained and ‘need a break’, then even by their own professed terms, the actual policy fails.

                  • weka

                    “No international student I’ve known has been able to just get a job and citizenship off the back of studying here. ”

                    Are you saying that Labour are wrong and there is no current govt policy to bring students in with the idea that they get jobs afterwards?

                    And again. Seeing as how NZ Labour based its policy on this notion that infrastructure and services are strained and ‘need a break’, then even by their own professed terms, the actual policy fails.

                    how so?

                    • Bill

                      I’m saying that privately run sham courses can be identified and shut down. International students shouldn’t be counted in immigration numbers. They are not residents and they are not migrants. That’s the UK Labour policy that I just happen to agree with because, well …it’s sensible.

                      Taking the ability to pick up even seasonal work away from international students, while simultaneously promoting temporary work visas for immigrant labour will lead to more people being in the country at a given time which ,according to NZ Labour’s reasoning for it’s immigration policy, is a really bad thing for infrastructure and services.

                      Have you read the policy?

                    • weka

                      No I haven’t.

                      You didn’t answer my question (the first one).

                    • Bill

                      I’m not aware of a government policy that states that, no.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    No international student I’ve known has been able to just get a job and citizenship off the back of studying here.

                    When I was working at Maccas I knew several of them.

                    Anecdote != fact.

                    • Bill

                      And if they were doing bogus courses and those courses were going to be shut down, then all good. But why have Labour decided to with-hold work visas from all international students (with some caveats for a few exceptions)?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Because it applies to all courses and not just a few.

                      Why should we even be giving international students work visas? Doing so is detrimental to the people who actually live here.

  12. Climate Realist 13

    Hasn’t Bill ‘Crazy’ McKibben been sedated and placed in a padded cell yet?

    Maybe – just maybe – the planet is trying to keep things in balance, what with minus 79˚ Celsius temps (along with -90˚C wind chill) in the Antarctic this week, parts of Newfoundland still blocked by sea ice, more snow in South Africa, the Arctic having one of the slowest melt seasons resulting in – shock! – its frozen ice cap still remaining. In other words, due to the extreme COLD in some parts, the planet is warming itself up in others…

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [no climate change denial under my posts. Take this as a warning. Read the Policy about wasting moderator time – weka]

    • RedLogix 13.1

      the Arctic having one of the slowest melt seasons

      Utter fucking bullshit.

      http://neven1.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f03a1e37970b01bb09a1ef98970d-pi

      And before you go blithering on … I’m personally in email contact with people in the Arctic on a daily basis. I worked there all winter and saw what is really happening with my own eyes.

      Blatant, lying bullshit on this topic is to my mind every bit as criminal as installing flammable cladding on building, when the spec called for fire proof.

      • marty mars 13.1.1

        + 1

        Exactly, just utter lies.

        Did you talk to locals who remembered the cold old days when you were there. And would be good to have your personal account and impressions seeing as you’ve just seen it.

        • RedLogix 13.1.1.1

          Yeah I mentioned it a while back in April I think.

          Basically the sea freeze up locally was in early November instead of late September, about six weeks late.

          And in January instead of temperatures regularly between -40 to -50degC, they hovered around 15 to 20 degC warmer. We got one day when it briefly hit -48degC, but for the most part it was between -25 to -35degC.

          Last summer they had two days when it hit +30degC !!! Absolutely catastrophic for the tundra.

          As for the local Inuit … they harbour no stupid doubts whatsoever. It is their lived experience. One guy I talked with had lived as a hunter with his family for almost seven years as a young man, in the local area. In a stone hut. I cannot start to express how impressive that is in such a deeply hostile environment … even now when it is warming.

          These are people who absolutely live their lives by the weather, and within just one generation they have seen it change dramatically. When I read pure bullshit from commenters above I really just wish they would stop reading delusional crap on the internet, get off their arses and get into the real world for a while. The scientists, the researchers, the techies who support them and the people who live in the Arctic are the ones who I respect.

          • marty mars 13.1.1.1.1

            Thanks.

            I dont think we get fast change. For instance the life of the native American plains warrior chasing buffalo we all know it, was gone in a lifetime. A young man or woman born free, died old in a reservation.

  13. Zid 14

    So why is there nothing in here on Labours sweat shop scandal?

    [see my moderation notes here https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22062017/#comment-1343561 – weka]

    • Molly 14.1

      Is “sweat shop scandal” the phrase de jour to deflect from Barclay?

      So, the accommodation offered by the marae with such superficial defects such as: cupboard door off it’s hinges, is too substandard to offer for FREE to overseas visitors looking to pad their CV’s (- or less cynically – looking to help spread representative democracy around the globe) but good enough for the iwi who usually use the marae?

      Compare and contrast what was included in the accommodation, to what was recently in the news about the standard of living offered to some NZers after they pay for it: here and here.

      • weka 14.1.1

        appreciating your in depth comments on this today Molly. If you come across a decent write up that describes the scheme and then what the problems are, please let me know. Mostly I’m just seeing some shoddy reporting that conflates various things, plus the usual jump to Labour bashing.

        • Bearded Git 14.1.1.1

          +100 Molly and Weka….a non-issue already being sorted out….definitely a distraction from Barclay. The marae where the interns are staying is denying the stories of terrible conditions but says not 5-star.

          Meanwhile Marama Fox is on RNZ Campbell Live as I’m writing this calling the intern story “corruption’ and asking what “what labour laws have been broken here” and “Labour needs to be more transparent”.

          Fox is a National Party stooge. The MP, if it still exists, has to be the “last cab off the rank” after 23 September.

          • Anne 14.1.1.1.1

            Aha… I said the following at 17.2 (3;49pm):

            I did hear someone postulate that someone from the Maori Party was stirring but there may be no truth in it.

            So it is true. The youngsters were invited to come here and help out in the election campaign. There seems to be a global movement where young ‘social democrats’ spend time in allied countries during campaign periods. It has presumably been set up to help them gain knowledge and experience – and provide more foot soldiers on the ground for the local social-democratic parties.

            Most are currently being hosted by an Auckland marae but it looks like there are more of them than can be comfortably accommodated. So the Maori Party uses the situation to discredit Labour and infer “unlawful conduct”.

            The MP has been absorbing the Crosby/Textor tactics at the knees of their lords and masters in the National Party for eight years and now they’re putting it into practice. What a bunch of hypocritical prats – and that’s just putting it nicely. 👿

          • weka 14.1.1.1.2

            I haven’t listened to that yet, but that does drop Fox in my estimation a lot. Plus the whole slave labour thing. We are so immature in this country.

            • Zid 14.1.1.1.2.1

              wow – “immature”, that’s hilarious coming from the left and is indeed industrial strength hypocrisy

    • Zid 14.2

      Interesting being pointed to moderation notes after posting my comment. The point I’m trying to make is that when something negative happens to the left, complete silence. At least Cam Slater (and I’m no fan) will expose bad behavior on the right as much as he does to the left. I guess the old saying rings true – “there are none so blind…”

      [read the site Policy. It’s not ok to tell authors what to write, or criticise them for what they do or don’t write. There are good reasons for this that supersede any perceived politics du jour. As I said in my moderation note, I spent so much time moderating stupid shit yesterday that I couldn’t keep up with the unfolding issues that were happening politically let alone have time to write about them. When that happens, moderators tend to come down harder so that their time doesn’t get wasted. We’re all doing this in our spare time – weka]

      • weka 14.2.1

        See note.

        • Zid 14.2.1.1

          for the record, I didn’t tell anyone to write anything, I was merely passing comment

          [let me make it really clear then. You asked “So why is there nothing in here on Labours sweat shop scandal?”. It’s possible that you were genuinely curious, but if that were the case you would have said so when you were moderated. I took your question to be a criticism of the authors here. Likewise you followed that up with “The point I’m trying to make is that when something negative happens to the left, complete silence.” It’s hard to see how that is not a criticism of the authors here.

          It’s against the rules to ‘pass comment’ on what the authors of the site should or shouldn’t write or otherwise attack the site/authors for that. There’s also a bit about wasting moderator time. You’re new here, and I tend to cut newbies more slack because I think the new blood is good for the place, but other moderators don’t. It’s up to you – weka]

          • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2.1.1.1

            NB: use of a question mark at the end of a sentence denotes that the sentence is what we hu-mans call “a question”. This and the previous sentence also provide examples of “comments”. Please note the lack of question mark.

            • weka 14.2.1.1.1.1

              True, and I’d add I’m noticing people putting their criticisms as a question in an attempt to get around moderation. If the question isn’t a genuine question and is just an attack that won’t work.

            • McFlock 14.2.1.1.1.2

              Supplemental: a “question” is an interrogative statement designed to elicit information, but that’s not important right now.

  14. greywarshark 15

    Squeeze that lemon to the last drop. The Daily Mail has found a beaut story from their point of view, low down looking up people’s trousers.
    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/06/21/mail-j21.html

    …As well as naming Behailu Kebede, a father of one, originally from Ethiopia and employed as a taxi driver, the newspaper published five photos. One of the captions on a photo of Kebede stated that his ‘faulty fridge started the Grenfell Tower inferno. …”…
    Kebede cannot be blamed in any way for the fact that Grenfell was turned into a towering inferno within minutes in the early hours of June 14. Citing BBC Panorama, on Monday, the Mail, as part of an effort to distance itself from its earlier report, wrote, “Firefighters who successfully tackled the fridge fire that started the Grenfell Tower thought their job was done and began to leave—only realising how quickly it had spread when they stepped outside. Units were called to what they believed to be a standard fridge fire at the doomed high-rise, and within minutes told residents the fire was out in the flat.

    “The crew was leaving the building when firefighters outside spotted flames rising up the side of the building. …”..

    No one should accept the claim that the fire was even caused by a faulty fridge. The Mail report makes no mention of the warning made by the Grenfell Action Group, who posted in a blog last November: “The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO [Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation—who ran the block on behalf of the local council], narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring.”…

    In addition, some witnesses who escaped and local residents reported seeing blue flames as the tower set alight, which is consistent with the escape of gas. Recent work on the flats involved the gas supply. A number of residents and the Grenfell Action Group previously reported their concern to the KCTMO and Fire Brigade about exposed gas pipes.

    The Financial Times reported that only in March, just three months before the fire broke out, the “Grenfell Tower’s leaseholders association wrote to the London Fire Brigade complaining about the still-exposed gas pipe and its location in the stairwell. … The pipe, the letter says ‘has put our life in danger and we don’t feel secure in the building any more’.”

    (That is really thorough reporting of matters that need attention from a Royal Commission with WIDE powers of investigation and remediation.)

  15. Cemetery Jones 16

    Rare Pepes: the cryptocurrency which will save Venezuela.

    https://cryptoinsider.com/venezuelan-developers-using-bitcoin-rare-pepes-fight-dismal-economy/

    “While rare pepes are nothing more than fun and games for much of the developed world, they’re a matter of survival in Venezuela. “We’re based in Venezuela, and our business has been saved by bitcoin many times,” said the developer.

    The developer claims roughly 80 percent of the offices around the area where Rare Pepe Party is being developed have shut down over the past year. The biggest businesses on their street have also dropped as much as 90 percent of their employees.

    “In that timeframe, thanks to bitcoin related business, we’ve grown our employee base from just 5 to 10 (we’re still a small company),” said the developer. “We’ve air-conditioned our office. Year-over-year we’ve been improving, so we’re banking big on bitcoin and now over Counterparty assets.”

    According to the developer, there is no legal framework for bitcoin-related businesses in Venezuela. Having said that, SEBIN, which the developer described as Venezuela’s secret police, has been targeting anyone involved in bitcoin for extortion and bribes, especially bitcoin miners. “Anything bitcoin related is a big no-no here at the moment,” said the developer. “This week I got wind of at least two mining operators getting knocks on their doors.””

    • greywarshark 16.1

      That really is a crime-ridden culture, when the powers stop business, trading unless they are controlling, getting a cut from everything. We have tax on interest gathering even cents from savings a/cs. The powers talk about cutting out cash so that small transactions and small aid can’t be given at will anywhere but has to go through some machine, some scrutiny. A huge way to impoverish and oppress.
      That’s the real worry about the black economy. The government can’t keep going on low tax from the wealthy, they need the reimbursement from the many who haven’t got enough to pay trained suits to find clever diversions and cul de sacs to wheel their piles into hiding till the taxmen ride by.

  16. David Mac 17

    Is this storm in a teacup over the living and working conditions of some kids on an OE they could never afford on their own or……

    “Uh-oh, even with their empty war-chest they’ve rustled up a little army of keen soldiers. What can we do to smear shite all over this?”

    • McFlock 17.1

      Helps them try to put a lid on the debarclay, too.

      • David Mac 17.1.1

        Yes there was a problem, anytime anybody gives anything a go hurdles pop up. It’s how me manage those hurdles that counts.

        Andrew Little should give his thoughts on what happened while sitting around a table full of food, dinner time at one of the loving homes these kids are now being billeted in.

        One of Matt’s team, the people that do the actual work, will get them all networked up. It’ll be fine.

        I wonder if we could get Todd to leave a recording device running in Bill’s cabinet meeting? I think we’d hear…

        “I want to be better at it guys, I’m getting training but I fear I’ll always be a crap liar.”

        Joyce: “Well that’s that then.”

    • Anne 17.2

      Is this storm in a teacup over the living and working conditions of some kids on an OE…

      Sounds like it.

      I suspect a small handful of kids who were expecting VIP accommodation are behind it. I did hear someone postulate that someone from the Maori Party was stirring but there may be no truth in it.

  17. greywarshark 18

    This is the world of neolib capitalism in Australia. With business friends and colleagues like this who needs enemies?

    Aussie bankers drug colleague with valium and laxatives in attempt to discredit him
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/93945621

    That’s Australia. Similar to North Korea’s treatment of a fellow human being?
    Whatever happened to Otto Warmbier in N Korea, it destroyed a healthy man
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/93946575

  18. Chris 19

    Rather quiet on here about Labour’s involvement in the “Campaign for Change” controversy

  19. greywarshark 20

    A recent report on real fraud that is not being revealed to our eyes.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11870607

    SFO chief executive and director Julie Read appeared before a parliamentary select committee today alongside the office’s responsible minister Paula Bennett….

    “One of the accounting firm’s surveys showed that something like 40 to 60 per cent of businesses reported they had been the subject of financial crime in the last three or four years. A lot of that is not reported because people don’t want to admit their firms have been the subject of financial crime.”

    Read said companies were less likely to report financial crime in times of economic growth, given it often did not greatly affect their bottom line.

    Documents released earlier this year revealed Police investigate less than 5 per cent of fraud cases referred from the banking sector.

    I see that firms have been making enough money that they can stand theft. And I see that Paula Bennett has the SFO in her purrview.

    Perhaps if people worried about the leakage of returns because of theft and fraud from business, paid for by the general public, they would spend less of their precious time trying to whip up a storm about young people spending their holidays helping out our beleaguered people’s party. Also perhaps Muck Rack is worth a look by dedicated bloggers.

  20. Stunned Mullet 21

    Winnie will be having a quiet cigar and whiskey this evening and thanking providence that he is up against such a gaggle of buffoons in the upcoming election.

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