Open Mike 22/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 22nd, 2017 - 250 comments
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250 comments on “Open Mike 22/10/2017”

  1. Tony Veitch (not etc) 1

    Many will not want to accept this, but we humans are in a struggle for our very existence. Most people just do not realise how perilous our situation is!

    If we continue to do as we have done for the past 30 plus years – we are doomed, and Guy MacPherson will be proved right – gone in ten years!

    If we tinker round the edges and set long term but modest goals – well, we may last a bit longer.

    We need RADICAL solutions to climate breakdown. We need to rethink the whole way we live at the moment. Sorry, farmers, industrial farming has got to go, large dairy herds have got to go. To survive we may all have to become vegetarian (not something that I could contemplate with equanimity!)

    We must have transport – but we need to make it as little polluting as possible – and that means abandoning our love affair with cars. Rail and public transport must have an absolute priority.

    Etc. etc.

    Will the Coalition be radical enough? I have my doubts, but one thing I know for certain – they’ll be a 1000% better than the lot we, thankfully, just got rid of!

    Read the article by George Monbiot referenced in yesterday’s Open Mike!

    • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.1

      For those too lazy to go looking, here’s the article – posted by savenz yesterday:

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/20/insectageddon-farming-catastrophe-climate-breakdown-insect-populations

      • greywarshark 1.1.1

        thanks Tony.
        +100

      • Bill 1.1.2

        Except that the German study Monbiot refers to did not say or claim that The most likely cause of this Insectageddon is that the land surrounding those reserves has become hostile to them: the volume of pesticides and the destruction of habitat have turned farmland into a wildlife desert.

        It’s not just Monbiot who has been jumping on the farming practices bandwagon. Almost every other piece referring to the German study does the same in spite of the German study itself expressing confusion on that front (the impact of farming).

        Think about it. The study was done on nature reserves. So no loss of habitat and no insecticides. And yet a 80% drop in numbers.

        But what those reserves have in common with every single other piece of land on this planet is that the vegetation has something like 30% less nutritional value than it had before the onset of the industrial revolution.

        That has repercussions for insects, not just in terms of malnutrition and possible starvation, but in their ability to resist the effects of toxins and/or parasites. And of course it has severe knock on effects all the way up various food chains.

        Now here’s the kicker. The study highlighting the drop in nutritional content explicitly pointed to the fact that the drop tracked the rise in atmospheric CO2. That study looked at goldenrod (which is not subject to agricultural practice) from 1842 to the present. Recent drops in the nutritional content of goldenrod are in line with the known drop across a range of studied crops (rice, wheat etc).

        We don’t have samples of those plants going back to the 1840s as is the case with goldenrod, but it would seem entirely appropriate to assume the same degree of degeneration given that the drop from the past 30 or 40 years is the same.

        So sure, change the way we farm. But don’t expect that to turn things around, because it won’t. We want this shit to come to a halt? Then we need to stop sparking up fossil fuels today. But we’re going to choose to not do that.

        • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.1.2.1

          Bill, the kick is in the tail of your post – “But we’re going to choose to not do that.”

          Altogether, too little, too late! (Or worse, not at all!)

          • Bill 1.1.2.1.1

            I can provide links to various studies/articles for the following if you want them…

            Tropical forests now exuding more CO2 than they capture.

            Studies on warmed soils in temperate regions showing they will exude more CO2 than they capture in a warming planet.

            Antarctica’s inevitable collapse locked in now and possibly happening in the space of a human life span and not the thousands of years usually touted. (Because ice cliffs that are not anchored on land can only be about 300m high and ‘explode’ if higher than that, and the “grounding line” in Antarctica is already essentially gone..)

            Nutritional content of plankton, just like terrestrial plants, dropping under accelerated growth conditions and that knocking seven shades of shit out of oceanic eco-systems.

            So on top of disappearing terrestrial species, throw in the joyful observations of “peanut head” orca. They’re starving on the west coast of N America (and possibly/probably elsewhere to).

            And yes, industrial fishing and farming don’t help matters. And urbanisation doesn’t help matters. And spraying/spreading chemical toxins and what not doesn’t help matters.

            But the one thing that underpins it all is us spewing CO2 into the environment via the combustion of fossil fuels. So, I dunno.

            Jump in the car and grab yourself a ‘top shelf’ something from the local bottle store that likely has the carbon footprint of an elephant this long weekend?

            • Rightly or wrongly 1.1.2.1.1.1

              Ok. And if the sun cools down and we enter a mini ice age what then?

              You might need to burn your ‘The World is doomed’ signs just to stay warm when the Waikato river starts freezing over each winter.

              Sound far fetched? It has happened before and will happen again.

              The big yellow ball in the sky has more of an effect on climate than anything puny humans do…

              • Andre

                Do you have any actual expertise around solar output and how it affects climate? IF you do, want to share that with us? Coz here’s what actual experts have to say about that particular piece of denialism.

                https://skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming-advanced.htm

                TL;DR

                “In the last 35 years of global warming, the sun has shown a slight cooling trend. Sun and climate have been going in opposite directions. In the past century, the Sun can explain some of the increase in global temperatures, but a relatively small amount.”

              • Tony Veitch (not etc)

                @ R or W

                Your honour, I rest my case – humans will do nothing until it’s far too late!

            • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.1.2.1.1.2

              lol – I live just along the road from a bottle store, so can walk to find solace!

              But your prognosis is quite negative – because, one thing we can be certain of, people won’t be giving up their cars in the near future! We need a revolution in ‘thinking’ and how we achieve that before the abyss opens up in front of us, I’ve no idea.

    • We need RADICAL solutions to climate breakdown.

      The climate isn’t breaking down. The climate is changing and, if we don’t stop doing what we’re doing to change it, then the change will possibly be enough to ensure that life will go on without us.

      But it’s still not a ‘climate breakdown’ as the climate’s working fine.

      We must have transport – but we need to make it as little polluting as possible – and that means abandoning our love affair with cars. Rail and public transport must have an absolute priority.

      QFT

      And, yes, we need to reduce the amount of farms that we have and change farming practices to ones that are less damaging.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc) 1.2.1

        Draco, the term ‘climate breakdown’ was, apparently, coined by George Monbiot – the point being that we have moved beyond just climate change.

        The ultimate ‘breakdown’ will be a climate that precludes human life!

  2. Ed 2

    Wow!
    Heather du Plessis Allen is not happy.
    The tone of this article is extraordinary as her true colours come to the fore.
    The sheer bile and prejudice spewing from this petulant rant is something to behold.
    And she is apparently a ‘journalist ‘.
    It makes you wonder if she was on the turps as it was been written.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935500

    • Robert Guyton 2.1

      How is this bad?
      “The Greens

      Finally. It’s been a long apprenticeship.

      Don’t let anyone tell you four positions outside Cabinet is a slap in the face. It’s a win. It gives the Greens power in the areas they care about, but enough arms-length from bad decisions to give them a chance at surviving in government. Remember, no minor party has yet survived an MMP coalition. But, the Greens probably will because co-leader James Shaw understands MMP and because they’ll already claimed a win with the marijuana referendum.”

    • Robert Guyton 2.2

      Or this win
      “Humanity

      It has to be said that National let the country down in this general category. It’s been a tough few years for lower income earners, and now the minimum wage is set to increase. It’s been tough for those needing mental health intervention, and Labour’s promised a ministerial inquiry (not that that necessarily means much). And it’s been awful for the Pike River families who deserve to go into the mine if that’s what they want. Now, it sounds like they’ll get it.”

      • tracey 2.2.1

        I agree it seemed an attempt at balance. Far more balance than pre election or up until friday night

    • Sumsuch 2.3

      Long live right-wing journalists posing as disinterested.

  3. Ed 3

    And if that article was not ridiculous enough for you, here’s conclusive proof the Herald is losing the plot and its owners are terrified their privileges will be removed by the new government.

    The Herald are reporting that the All Blacks lost because of Jacinda.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11935595

    • Once was Tim 3.1

      “Desperado, why don’t you come to your senses
      You been out ridin’ fences for so long now
      Oh, you’re a hard one
      I know that you got your reasons
      These things that are pleasin’ you
      Can hurt you somehow

      Don’t you draw the Queen of Diamonds, boy
      She’ll beat you if she’s able
      You know the Queen of Hearts is always your best bet

      Now, it seems to me some fine things
      Have been laid upon your table,
      But you only want the ones that you can’t get

      Desperado, oh, you ain’t gettin’ no younger
      Your pain and your hunger, they’re drivin’ you home

      And freedom, oh freedom, well that’s just some people talkin’
      Your prison is walking through this world all alone

      Don’t your feet get cold in the winter time?
      The sky won’t snow and the sun won’t shine
      It’s hard to tell the night time from the day
      You’re losin’ all your highs and lows;
      Ain’t it funny how the feeling goes away?

      Desperado, why don’t you come to your senses?
      Come down from your fences; open the gate
      It may be rainin’, but there’s a rainbow above you
      You better let somebody love you, before it’s too late

      ( Glenn Frey / Don Henley )
      not that I was ever that big a fan

    • mac1 3.2

      Ed, I’ve read both articles. Somehow I just don’t get that these are ‘ridiculous’ or ‘sheer bile and prejudice’ and I started reading them expecting to find what you complain of.

      With your two posts above you made a set of assertions and gave us the articles to look up. I suggest now is the time when you should back your assertions with examples from the two articles and argue where and how they are ridiculous or sheer bile and prejudice.

      Robert Guyton in reply to you seems to have the same problem as I have in finding what you say is actually there.

      I’m happy to be proved wrong and shown this media commentary is biased and stupid. I’ve just reread them, and a leftie would have little to complain of. The only bit I found unreasonable was a reference to Labour and NZF ‘obsessing’ over truck numbers.

      • Once was Tim 3.2.1

        The first article seems to be a Plastic-Allen attempt at pragmatism and putting on a brave face but the other with the headline “Did Jacinda Ardern ‘curse’ the All Blacks?” is sure as shit getting a little desperate

      • ankerawshark 3.2.2

        Hi Mac1,

        The Herald article about Jacinda and the All Blacks is SEXIST. I can’t believe they thought this was acceptable.

        If you don’t get that its sexist associating a “negative” outcome with women in power then I beg you to do a consciousness raising course. Soon.

        • mac1 3.2.2.1

          The article says, at the beginning, “and as silly as it sounds, don’t be surprised at some tongue-in-cheek finger-pointing at the changing face of our Government.

          A few such “jokes” circulated on social media after the game.”

          The Herald says that such a view is silly, and a ‘joke’.

          Come on.

          • ankerawshark 3.2.2.1.1

            Mac1

            Just put in there “because we have a Maori PM we lost the rugby and when we look back at times when the AB’s lost the world cup, there was a Maori as PM….

            Would that be acceptable to you?????? Do you see any problems with that….???

            Would be interested to hear. If you do think that would be problematic, then what is the difference if they say some are blaming the new woman PM for the AB’s loss.

            If they were going to critique the “sillly” comments on social media, why then did they go on to publish previous data about AB’s results and woman leaders. That gives the “silliness” some credibility.

            • mac1 3.2.2.1.1.1

              And I’d say that they’d be talking about some ‘silly’ ‘tongue-in-cheek’ rubbish that is being bandied about in the social media, and saying how stupid people can be to believe that synchronicity implies causality- in this case, the All Blacks losing whilst at the same time we are blessed with a woman PM, or for that matter a Maori PM.

              Now, I understand you are well-meaning and sincere, and i thank you for taking the trouble to convince me that I am wrong- but one of us is reading more into that article than was intended, as I read the words written.

              Because the writer went on to say that the All Blacks lost in the time of Clark and Shipley as well, does not in my view add to the credibility of a stupid allusion to a causal link, but instead makes it dafter as I believe the writer intends.

              That writer is saying they were silly saying it about Ardern, and idiots abounded too in the time of Clark and Shipley.

              I was last Saturday talking about dexterity with a musical student of mine. I mentioned, since I studied Latin, the derivation of the word as being right-handed; and that in former days left-handedness was seen as bad, from which we get the word ‘sinister’ which means left-handed. We agreed that was indeed stupid.

              In no way was that former commonly held belief given any credibility by us, or by any reasonable person. A similar process was involved with the Herald article. So I believe. I did ask my wife to read the same article, and she thought “it was a jokey thing to poke fun at how people could be so silly.” She would have set me right otherwise! I would not have it otherwise.

              There is I believe a clue in the headline to the article in which the word ‘curse’ is placed within quotation marks, denoting that this is not to be given credibility.

              Thanks for the discussion, Ankerawshark.

        • Wensleydale 3.2.2.2

          It’s because Jacinda is a woman, and therefore likely a witch. She must be dunked in the nearest badly polluted waterway. If she drowns, she wasn’t a witch and we’re safe from the minions of Lucifer. If she doesn’t drown, then she’s an agent of evil and must be burned in Aotea Square. For the good of the nation, you understand. We can’t be losing at rugby. It’s just not on.

    • red-blooded 3.3

      “The Herald are reporting that the All Blacks lost because of Jacinda.”

      No they’re not – settle down. They said there had been some “tongue-in-cheek” comments on social media (eg the link to a loss following Jenny Shipley’s ascension – the supposed link being – gasp! – a female in charge). This is a light-hearted piece of fluff, not a politically biased accusation.

      BTW, I’m no fan of Heather du Plessis Allen, but the Herald article you linked to above was actually pretty restrained and balanced.

      • Once was Tim 3.3.1

        It’s not the article so much as the headline. Now that we’re sub-editor absent these days, I suspect it’s an editorial attempt at denigration.

    • mary_a 3.4

      (3) Ed … NZH resorting to witchcraft perhaps? I think it was said in jest though. Well I hope it was!

  4. Ad 4

    How to destroy the third largest communist party in the world:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/the-indonesia-documents-and-the-us-agenda/543534/

    The US complicity in the massacre of millions of Indonesian people, plenty of them now clearly innocent according to the now-released diplomatic cables from the time, has got reasonable coverage in the last decade But this new set of releases shows how neck deep in blood they were.

    I don’t really blame LBJ – he was fully focussed on his domestic agenda.

    I blame CIA Director Dulles, and Kennedy himself. While Kennedy was gone in 63 and the big Indonesian massacres didn’t start until 65, it was from Kennedy’s appointees and his strategies that these nightmares rolled out across the under-developed world.

    Another sick game from the Best and the Brightest.

  5. Sanctuary 5

    “…Heather du Plessis Allen is not happy…”

    She is probably feeling a bit besieged, what with all the pointed criticism her hubby has been getting for his sexist and antediluvian line of questions aimed at Jacinda Ardern (what did Linda Clark say the other day? Certain aging male journalists who need to update get out?).

    Still, the constant binary politics attacks on the coalition continues today with a Sunday paper screaming about the Keramadec sanctuary, and Jenna Raeburn (wife of a National party MP and active propagandist for the National election campaign from a National party aligned PR firm) being used as some sort of usefully unbiased commentator on Natrad.

  6. Et Tu Brute ? 6

    Julie Bishop is a creature of Gina Rinehart – both from West Australia ..
    http://www.smh.com.au/…/gina-rinehart-flew-mps-to-india-for-lavish-wedding- 20110616-1g5zf.html
    http://www.smh.com.au/…/expenses-scandal-a-minister-in-the-marquee-worth-a- tentfull-of-dlist-celebs-20170111-gtpbfl.html
    http://www.watoday.com.au/…/wa-mining-magnate-gina-rinehart-faces-hefty-legal- payout-to-rival-20171012-gyzyc7.html

    who may be the next Prime Minister of Australia ..
    http://www.news.com.au/…julie-bishops…/21b1b39bdfcd83fc923a539790f42d38
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-05/grant-i-was…by…/7299940
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-14/julie-bishop…over…/8618288
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid...

    … West Australia is hardly a champion for indigenous rights.
    https://thewest.com.au/…/canberra-cuts-funds-for-aboriginal-communities-ng -ya-378250
    https://www.sydneycatholic.org/news/latest…/201548_1299.shtml
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia…/fears-western-australia-will-close- remote-indigenous-communities-by-stealth
    rightnow.org.au/…/explainer-what-happens-when-a-remote-aboriginal- community-in-western-australia-is-closed/
    http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=43792
    http://www.smh.com.au/…/remote-indigenous-communities-under-threat- 20141114-11myb9.html
    http://www.aljazeera.com/…/shutting-down-australia-aboriginal-areas- 2014124124749741868.html
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/…/indigenous/…aboriginal…cut/…/ 925b6c9db28f8ae08da13e6807b90c8b

    • greywarshark 6.1

      Julie (jewel-ly) Bishop and Gina Rinehart (heart of stone? rhinestone? rhino horn?) Well matched.

      Thanks Et Brute’ for giving us Oz news. The left coalition here will have to keep watch and alert for RW dirtiness both in Oz as well as here. Just a few decades of anti-poor-people and we are both sliding back to colonial conditions.

      You can’t take the sneer out of colonials it seems, which divides into them and us, and the us are the goodies and the others baddies. (NZ started judging the new colonists early on and sent some of the poor back, and has always been ready to condemn and blame ordinary people for real or imagined faults and failures.) And soon the slide is back to Wild West (W.Australia?) conditions.

      Cut the crap with the externalities, such as poor people suffering imposed bad conditions, especially aborigines, and get to the wealth-making possibilities is the main driver and slogan.

  7. The Kermadec Ocean sanctuary appears to be dead in the water after a deal between Labour and NZ First (who of course have close ties to the fishing industry).

    it is understood Jacinda Ardern agreed a Labour-NZ First government would not progress legislation to establish the sanctuary in this three-year Parliamentary term. That will disappoint some of her MPs and supporters, but will win favour among her Maori MPs who argued it undermined iwi commercial fishing rights.

    The Kermadec sanctuary was one of the dealbreakers that swung negotiations in Labour’s favour.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/98122008/kermadec-ocean-sanctuary-put-on-ice-by-nz-first-catching-greens-unaware

    And swung the deal in the green party’s favour.

    This is something the Greens have allowed presumably without knowing the Kermadec deal had been done. James Shaw said he trusted Jacinda Ardern to protect green interests.

    Ardern has shown she has a ruthless streak beneath her absolutely positive surface.

    [“James Shaw said he trusted Jacinda Ardern to protect green interests.” Where did he say that?You look like you might be trolling, so I’d like to see you back that up. Provide a specific link and quote please. – weka]

    • Sanctuary 7.1

      Oh fuck off you Tory troll.

      • Pete George 7.1.1

        What made you so tetchy this morning? A celebration hangover?

        In the main I’m supporting the incoming government, and I hope they do well.

      • eco maori 7.1.2

        +1000 Sanctuary

      • North 7.1.3

        Oh Sanctuary thank you for the laugh. Am in a time zone 5 hours behind NZ and waking early still. ‘Tis a comfort to read sentiment such as yours which aligns with my own annoyance about fuck off talking heads, concern trolls, loud mouth media wankers and a bunch of others passively/aggressively demanding explanation from a majority of NZ voters. Sorry arseholes…..your discomfort with the institution of MMP…..your pique/ignorance you’ll just have to get over it. As for HooHaa Plastic-Allan in The Herald…..her article wasn’t that bad. If anything underneath its facile silliness it had the smell of a sly design to ingratiate with ‘now’ power. Which would indicate that at least for the moment she’s determined to get over her ridiculous self. No mean feat while sharing lodgings with crusty Barely Sopher. Garner’s another story of course. Pugnacious ass in a studied sort of way will take a while yet. Little hope for Mikey Toss-King however. Still on suicide watch they say……

      • greywarshark 7.1.4

        Pete
        George
        ‘Ardern has shown that she has a [pragmatic] streak [as part of] her absolutely positive surface.’
        FIFY

    • This is something the Greens have allowed presumably without knowing the Kermadec deal had been done. James Shaw said he trusted Jacinda Ardern to protect green interests.

      Where did you learn your weaselry, Pete? Surely it must have been at one of the world’s top weaselry schools? Come on, don’t be modest, you can tell us.

      • Pete George 7.2.1

        Where did you learn to avoid the topic in the thread and resort to petty attack?

        • Psycho Milt 7.2.1.1

          Your effort to put the Greens in the worst possible light while pretending to be a neutral observer is the topic of your comment.

          • Pete George 7.2.1.1.1

            I’ve never pretended to be a neutral observer, that’s your misconception. And I’m not trying to “put the Greens in the worst possible light”.

            The Greens took a big risk trusting that their interests would be served by giving Labour a blank cheque in negotiations with NZ First.

            There was bound to be disappointments. I hope this is one of the biggest, because it’s not the end of the world, or the end of the sanctuary, it’s just a ‘nice to have’ (that I support, so I’m a bit disappointed by this apparent deal).

            • Psycho Milt 7.2.1.1.1.1

              And there it is again: like your disappointment yesterday with James Shaw’s inability to bind future governments to a referendum decision, today’s disappointment with the Green Party’s inability to dictate terms to its coalition partners is disingenuous, passive-aggressive anti-Green propaganda.

          • Robert Guyton 7.2.1.1.2

            It might be that Pete is tone deaf and unaware of the mosquito-whine that accompanies his comments. The disappointing thing is, when alerted to the phenomenon, he doubles-down and denies, thus cranking up its volume; doubtless this comment will ramp it up further, but fortunately, skipping is easy.

            • Pete George 7.2.1.1.2.1

              Ironic that you’re talking about whining and unawareness Robert.

              I’l be disappointed if the Kermadec Sanctuary is a casualty of the deal with NZ First, and all you can do is express disappointment that I brought the subject up? Don’t you care about the sanctuary?

              • millsy

                We care more about National not being in government to shrink the state and allow the rivers and airs to be polluted.

              • Brigid

                What we don’t care about is your faux concern that the Greens
                ” took a big risk trusting that their interests would be served by giving Labour a blank cheque in negotiations with NZ First.”

              • AB

                Sorry to hear you’re feeling disappointed PG – especially as you were such a vigorous advocate for the sanctuary right from the start.
                Oh wait, I can’t find evidence of such forthright advocacy…
                Could it be (and call me a cynic if you must) that you don’t give a rat’s about the sanctuary itself, but are using it as a convenient hook from which to hang an attack on the Greens?

              • Patricia Bremner

                JK never discussed this with any interested parties.

                He just announced it knowing it would cut across Maori established fishing rights.

                But hey, he looked good overseas. Then he left!!

      • greywarshark 7.2.2

        Psycho Milt
        I’m thinking of Hogworts and their four student groups – weasels went to Slytherin didn’t they?

        Interesting point about Sur Peter Talley being a National donor. I think he used to donate to Labour as well. It falls under pragmatic politics and the way we control funding, don’t, and don’t publicly contribute to funding Parties. It can compromise them.

        Pete George is going to be such a regular here. He will be like a pig in mud heaven, a hippopotamous where the tail makes the fan, during this coalition. Can TS commenters stand it? Perhaps if we keep the Left only post going permanently we will be able to discuss deeply and thoughtfully with informed input there. Now and then we get some threads that are startling in their substance and we realise what we can achieve when we aren’t crowded out by nah-nah tiny minds.

        • The Fairy Godmother 7.2.2.1

          I think you will find that the weasleys were in Griffin or the house for the brave.

    • Zorb6 7.3

      Generous National donor ,now Sir Peter Talley will be happy then.’Put on Ice’,does not infer the issue is hopeless.

    • Ad 7.4

      National should put the legislation for the Kermadecs up in the House and force the issue.
      There’s been smoke swirling around this for so long it needs pulling into the sunlight.

      If National put a bill up to promote the Kermadec sanctuary, it’s a great opportunity for the Greens to signal their independence from the cross-benches by crossing the floor and ensuring it passes. Vote with National, and make the new PM sit up straight.

      This in turn would make a good-sized rift in NZF between Peters who has gone hard for the Scampi fishers funding National, and the iwi fishers to whom Shane Jones is so beholden.

      • Pete George 7.4.1

        National should be able to dominate the Members Bills. Labour, NZ First and Greens will be busy working on Government business, so the ballot should be fairly open for National (plus David Seymour).

        If they limit the number of bills put into the ballot and include the Kermadec Sanctuary then it would improve the odds.

        It would be good to see Members’ Bills used positively by the Opposition, and also by any of Labour, NZ First and Greens, any of whom could enable a Member’s bill to progress.

        The Kermadec sanctuary should have an insignificant fiscal impact so shouldn’t be able to be overruled by Cabinet.

      • weka 7.4.2

        There’s already a Bill in the house (passed its first reading). How does that work when Labour say they won’t progress it? Do they have a choice?

        I don’t think the Greens would go hard out confrontational on this (they’ll try other ways first), but I’m also curious to know if there is any reason they can’t vote with National on it?

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.2.1

          Makes far more sense to wait for the High Court – and possibly Supreme Court – to rule, and engage in the consultation process the National Party utterly failed at.

          This certainly won’t be the last consequence of Dr. Sir Key’s overreach and sloppy attitude to government the country will have to deal with over the next decade or two.

          The Greens can make a huge difference to that process without siding with corrupt and incompetent trash.

          • Fran 7.4.2.1.1

            To OAB,

            Very sensible, this was mishandled from day one and now we need to wait for the courts to rule before proceeding. The lack of consultation and the ignoring of Iwi rights makes it a very hot potato for any government right now. Just another example of how utterly arrogant the last lot were (are).

            • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.2.1.1.1

              I asked myself “how would the Greens respond to this?”

              We absolutely need to work alongside Māori to make sure it happens but I think we are all committed to make sure that it does.

              James Shaw.

              😀

            • Anne 7.4.2.1.1.2

              Hi Fran,
              @ 18… I put up a link to a RNZ political discussion this morning which included further insight into John Key’s Kermadec Sanctuary announcement at the UN. Not only does it confirm what you and AOB (and others) are saying but it also sheds light on Key’s real agenda.

              I didn’t pick up this matter was already under discussion so here is the link again:

              http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018618833

              The discussion on the Kermadec deal comes near the end….

          • weka 7.4.2.1.2

            That makes sense. So when the Bill comes up for the second reading, the Greens vote against it? Where then is the push to create a sanctuary that also engages in consultation with iwi?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.2.1.2.1

              See reply to Fran – 7.4.2.1.1.1 🙂

              • weka

                I’m clear on the general GP approach, I was just wondering how it would work logistically.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  One way: via amendments to the bill in the house. As for consultation, again, one way to do it is via a select committee.

                  Procedures.

                  • weka

                    Cheers.

                    Do you know what the timing is with the courts vs the second reading?

                    • weka

                      crikey, I really should go and read more of the parliament website.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The timing of the second reading is entirely up to Parliament.

                      Once a bill has been referred to a select committee, the committee usually has six months to report to the House, unless the House specifies a different date. Reporting dates may be extended if it turns out more time is needed for the committee to consider the bill…

                      Once the committee has presented its report, the bill is available for second reading any time from the third sitting day after presentation…

          • marty mars 7.4.2.1.3

            + 1 yep oab

          • tracey 7.4.2.1.4

            But but but Pete George says ” The Kermadec Ocean sanctuary appears to be dead in the water after a deal between Labour and NZ First (who of course have close ties to the fishing industry). “…

        • Ad 7.4.2.2

          The Greens could put it up first.

          That would bring National straight in.

          Perfectly within the remit of the Minister of Conservation.

          That would be quite a stir.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.4.2.2.1

            speculation and rumour

            And trolling. Don’t forget trolling.

          • weka 7.4.2.2.2

            Strange to see you as one of our most conservative left wing people, who supports stability, arguing for a junior partner in a government that is still forming to start stirring.

            Not only is it not how the GP operate, I wouldn’t expect any party to start a government out that way.

            “Perfectly within the remit of the Minister of Conservation.”

            Still has to go through Cabinet though right?

        • red-blooded 7.4.2.3

          I’m pretty sure this was presented as a government bill, so it would be up to the new government whether they progress it. The second reading comes after the bill has been passed through the select committee, and any changes not agreed at committee stage can be put before the house. The bill is presented back to the house by the member in charge of it. Unless it’s a member’s bill, I’m pretty sure that would be the relevant minister and that it would be up to them when and if it’s taken back for the second reading.

          Having said that, it’s my understanding that this bill hasn’t been killed, but that Labour wants to work things out with representatives of relevant Māori. There’s also chatter about NZF and fishing interests, but James Shaw seemed pretty confident on Q+A this morning that this proposal was still live.

      • greywarshark 7.4.3

        Do we want rifts occurring so soon after forming the coalition and shunting the train onto the tracks ready for the first journey.

        Here’s Hank Marvin and group singing Mystery Train
        If only our politicians can look as happy and integrated as these guys playing this good music. Great bright guitar playing of the 1960’s variety.
        (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyozANj5tRE
        and

        Arlo Guthrie The City of New Orleans and great images

        and talking about Arlo Guthrie and a rousing song we need to remember —
        This Land Is Your Land, this land is My Land.
        with Arlo, Woody and Judy Collins. Pete Seeger and many others all in their own way, having fun.
        (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bphP7Hh_gxU

    • repateet 7.5

      The power of language and choice of words nicely demonstrated.

      “Ardern has shown she has a ruthless streak beneath her absolutely positive surface.”

      Ruthless as in synonyms I found?: merciless, cruel, unfeeling, steely, vicious, fierce?

      Ruthless as a condemnation and put-down or ruthless as determined and not letting personal feelings and emotion get in the way of putting into action ones principles?

      Since the description has been used on here it might not make other forums. I think if it were on Kiwiblog something like “Ruthlesscindi” would become common use for some of the children there.

    • weka 7.6

      moderation note above, please respond.

      • Pete George 7.6.1

        I don’t see why I should be subject to such pedantry when others aren’t, especially while you seem to turn a blind eye to other rules like personal attacks. You seem obsessed with targeting me.

        Shaw confirmed his trust in Ardern to negotiate a deal that won’t see his party locked out in the cold, or pushed beneath NZ First.

        “Jacinda made fairness one of her principle values in the campaign, I’ve known her a number of years and, I said this before the election, I trust her and she seems to be doing a good job of it.

        “It’s got to be a stable and responsible Government that’s going to go the full distance in the national interest. Labour are working very hard on ensuring that that happens. That’s of paramount concern to all of us,” he said.

        Shaw said he was confident he would be happy with the deal Labour eventually presented to them, but all the partners had to be “pretty sure” of their Government’s direction to ensure stability. </blockquote.
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97761745/james-shaw-trust-labour-to-bring-back-fair-deal-from-winston-peters

        [well seeing as how you’re unclear about it, I’ll explain. You’re a well-known troll on TS who has been banned multiple times for causing problems for the site and moderators. Those bans have been given by a range of moderators (not just me). So when I see you back on site, I generally check whether you are engaging in non-troll ways or not.

        Today looked like it was going to cause problems (going by what you wrote and how people reacted). Shaw didn’t say what you claimed and now you’ve had to provide evidence that shows you were wrong. This is how it works here.

        And yes, you can expect more of this (not just you). Because I won’t be sitting by and letting bullshit and lies be spread around here about any of the new government parties or MPs. People can say what they like up to a point but they have to be able to back up statements of fact. I will generally step in when statements appear to be pushing certain anti-left lines or ones that seek to dishonestly undermine LW parties, MPs, or LWers in general. This is a left-aligned site after all. – weka]

        • One Anonymous Bloke 7.6.1.1

          James Shaw said he trusted Jacinda Ardern to protect green interests.

          What James Shaw actually said:

          Shaw confirmed his trust in Ardern to negotiate a deal that won’t see his party locked out in the cold, or pushed beneath NZ First…fairness… the national interest…stability.

          Thanks for confirming your beige dishonesty.

        • Robert Guyton 7.6.1.2

          Pete George said: “I don’t see why I should be subject to such pedantry”

          Lordy! I can barely breathe!

        • Pete George 7.6.1.3

          “You’re a well-known troll on TS ”

          Funny. I could praise you here for your balanced and inclusive moderation and would probably be called a troll. From what I see it’s most often a lazy form of abuse from people who are intolerant of points of view they don’t like, or people they have labelled as some sort of perceived enemy.

          I hope that eventually the positive and inclusive approach to politics as demonstrated by Jacinda Ardern is embraced by those on the left embittered by 9 years in opposition.

          I thought things might have changed here after success, but I might give things a while longer for the changes to take place.

          [you still don’t get it Pete. Moderation isn’t here to be inclusive to you. It’s to protect the site and authors, to limit the amount of work for the moderators, and to encourage robust debate that is accessible to as wide a range of people as possible. Inclusivity and access ends where people are being anti-social.

          Me calling you a troll isn’t lazy abuse, it’s from many years of observing your behaviour here and how that impacts negatively on the site. There are plenty of people here who I disagree with politically but who never end up on my moderator radar because they know how to argue their position without winding people up, lying, or derailing. – weka]

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.6.1.3.1

            😆

            You’re the victim here Pete. Never forget that.

            • weka 7.6.1.3.1.1

              The utter inability to take responsibility for having lied in a political debate and instead make out he is here to lead TS to a new era of positivity and inclusivity.

              Uber troll.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Surely an uber-troll would come up with an original tactic or two.

                “Someone” publishes an incomplete story from anonymous sources. Pete George’s amygdala reacts as expected. The story then has to be amended once the facts are known.

                So far so Dirty Politics.

                • weka

                  “Surely an uber-troll would come up with an original tactic or two.”

                  Not really. Trolling well without getting banned, managing that over time, knowing what will wind up the regulars and derail the conversation and implementing that to the point that people want to tear their hair out, if he can’t get people to talk about his views then he manages to get people talking about not talking about his views, on and on. Originality isn’t necessary if the goal is to control the debate.

                  Agreed about the Dirty Politics.

            • Brigid 7.6.1.3.1.2

              Calling Jeremy Wells…

            • Pete George 7.6.1.3.1.3

              You keep trying to make me out as victim, and other things, never forget that.

              I don’t feel like a victim at all.

              Will you note weka’s comment and take responsibility for all the lying you’ve done here? Or is there an utter inability or unwillingness?

              Uber troll indeed.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Thinking you are a boring unoriginal disingenuous passive aggressive right wing wanker isn’t lying, Peter, it’s an honestly held opinion with a mountain of evidence to support it.

                The only “uber” you’re likely to come anywhere near is the one that takes you for a ride.

            • tracey 7.6.1.3.1.4

              LOL… He is giving us all time to come round to his way of thinking which gives us a gilt edge opportunity to ensure his absence?

    • Assurances that the sanctuary hasn’t been sunk yet.

      Green Party leader James Shaw told TVNZ’s Q +A this morning the scheme was still on the table.

      “Obviously there are still a lot of issues to work through, it is a complicated issue, but we are still doing our best efforts to make sure it happens,” he said.

      “We absolutely need to work alongside Māori to make sure it happens but I think we are all committed to make sure that it does.”

      A spokesperson for Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said the scheme was very much alive.

      That’s vague. Alive perhaps, but on life support for three years?

      I wonder if Shaw’s comments are with or without knowledge of the details of the Labour-NZ First agreement. I wouldn’t be surprised to see some kicking of cans down the road on this and other policies. Like:

      9. Refugees

      Review, as well as “adequately fund and support” refugees under the family reunification scheme.

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/the-greens-10-big-policy-gains.html

      Reviews were a method National used to pay lip service to small party policy ‘wins’.

      • Robert Guyton 7.7.1

        “A spokesperson for Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said the scheme was very much alive.” (my bold)

        Pete George said: ” That’s vague.”

        This is fun!

      • Robert Guyton 7.7.2

        Pete almost said, “That’s beige”.
        Lordy!

      • One Anonymous Bloke 7.7.3

        And there it is again: like your disappointment yesterday with James Shaw’s inability to bind future governments to a referendum decision, today’s disappointment with the Green Party’s inability to dictate terms to its coalition partners is disingenuous, passive-aggressive anti-Green propaganda.

        Deja vue all over again.

      • tracey 7.7.4

        Not alive, ” very much alive”. The difference might have been too subtle for you to see how big it was?

    • red-blooded 7.8

      James Shaw said on Q+A this morning that he didn’t see the sanctuary as dead and that there was a need to work with Māori and with other parties to find the best way to go forward towards creating the sanctuary. Of course, he hasn’t seen what’s in the NZF agreement (maybe it has been put aside – I don’t know), but at this stage he still seems to be hopeful there’s a way forward.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 7.8.1

        …but but but the uncertainty! And the concern! Such deep deep concern. Whatever shall we do? I’m feeling so lost and scared without Bill and John to hold me 😈

    • KJT 7.9

      Relax George.

      What Adern actually said is that the sanctuary is still on the table.

      Just going back to public, Maori and fishery interests for consultation. As it should be!

      As usual you add nothing to discussions other than waffling and bad faith bullshit.

  8. Although, much as I dislike Pete George’s weaselry, that story about the Kermadec Sanctuary will be annoying if it’s true:

    NZ First, whose senior MPs are close to the fishing industry and whose campaign was partly bankrolled by players in the fishing industry, demanded Labour stop the sanctuary.

    It’s one thing to hold off on the sanctuary because there are Treaty issues to sort out first, quite another to hold off on it because your coalition partner consists of corrupt politicians. If the report’s accurate, this will be the first of no doubt many instances of Labour getting up with fleas from the NZ First dog it lay down with.

    • DoublePlusGood 8.1

      Time to nationalise Talleys and Sealord?

      • Barfly 8.1.1

        A Kermadec Sanctuary is entirely feasible – the opposition to it was Sealords who demanded to retain the right to fish there . I couldn’t work out wtf that was about as the fishing in the area covered by the sanctuary was only around 1000 tonnes which in fishing terms is essentially zero . (the 1000 tonnes wasn’t even taken by Sealords)

        The Kermadecs are so bloody far away people don’t fish there because of the time and fuel costs involved – they can fill there quota closer to port – that’s the only reason National suggested it .

        I didn’t understand Sealords opposition to it until the penny finally dropped. If at some point the future management of the fisheries requires quota reductions fishing in the Kermadecs area may be commercially desirable. If there is to be a sanctuary this is the issue that would need to be negotiated with Sealords to their satisfaction IMHO.

        • Patricia Bremner 8.1.1.1

          Thank you for that Barfly. That explains a lot.

        • greywarshark 8.1.1.2

          Could there be another aspect to the refusal by Sealord to accept the Kermadec sanctuary – aren’t they half owned by Japanese interests? And they dig their toes in about rights to the sea. Perhaps that is a reaction to
          being nuclear bombed on big areas of their small country. In the high seas they should be free they think, possibly.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 8.1.2

        Make persistent and deliberate breaches of human rights and employment law subject to the Crimes Act, then go after assets under the Proceeds of Crime Act.

        That will help cure the Mr. Talley disease.

    • David Mac 8.2

      The Kermadecs are 1000km to the North East. You’re a long way from home when the sea whips up cruel up there in the cyclone prone tropics. If our fishing fleet need to steam 1000km for a catch, we’re doing something frightfully wrong 100kms offshore. Policing the far-flung 750,000 ha would be made a lot more simple if no fishing boats were allowed. They can be located and identified via satellites and tracked to a home port.

      I don’t think Iwi are particularly concerned about losing potential fishing grounds, they’d just like to stick a Tino Rangatiratanga flag in the region. Fair enough, there’s a good chance Kupe filled his water gourds at Raoul Island on the way down. I’m hopeful we can arrive at an MMP flavoured compromise that leaves all points of view quite satisfied. That’s how it goes with balanced compromise, nobody gets exactly what they want.

    • KJT 8.3

      It is not true.

      See my comment to George above.

      • Pete George 8.3.1

        We don’t know what the situation is yet, and won’t until the Labour-NZ First agreement is made public, and then we may have to still wait until we see what happens in practice.

        It would be interesting to know who claimed/leaked to Stuff, and why.

        • KJT 8.3.1.1

          You, didn’t know!

          So, just like our , so called, Journalists. You made something up.

          I have already had a guts-full of that sort of behavior. From our media about the election. You are lucky Weka has more patience than me.

        • tracey 8.3.1.2

          So having it had it shown that it is not “dead in the water” you want to change the focus to “who leaked it”?. Who leaked what though? The imaginary dead in the water sanctuary?

          • Pete George 8.3.1.2.1

            If the claim is dead in the water than it’s of interest who leaked the story to Stuff.

            NZ First, whose senior MPs are close to the fishing industry and whose campaign was partly bankrolled by players in the fishing industry, demanded Labour stop the sanctuary.

            And it is understood Jacinda Ardern agreed a Labour-NZ First government would not progress legislation to establish the sanctuary in this three-year Parliamentary term.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/98122008/kermadec-ocean-sanctuary-put-on-ice-by-nz-first-catching-greens-unaware

            That sounds like it’s based on information given to SIMON MAUDE AND JONATHAN MILNE. There must have been a motive behind that.

            More here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98130588/kermadec-sanctuary-still-on-table-but-iwi-consultation-key–labour

            • Psycho Milt 8.3.1.2.1.1

              The same Jonathan Milne who was so outraged about major parties having to negotiate with Winston Peters to form a government? There’s a motive alright, but I doubt it involves someone in NZF or Labour leaking stuff.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 8.3.1.2.1.2

              The National Party is perfectly capable of leaking it, since it will have come up in negotiations with NZF, they have no respect for confidentiality or ethics and crucially, have form in this regard.

              I don’t give a shit what you pretend to think about it though, so don’t let me know.

            • Tracey 8.3.1.2.1.3

              You said it was dead in the water… you reply to me as though I said it. You made the claim. Tgen having been asked to prove it were found wanting. Now you are all about the “leak”… fickle much

              • Your assertion has been found wanting. You’re misquoting me, careful doing that, it’s against the rules here.

                I said “appears to be dead in the water”, which at the time that’s how it seemed. It’s been an evolving story through the day, like many political stories.

                It’s of interest to me who leaked it and why – I think it’s very unlikely Sunday Times journalists completely made the story up.

                And responses by Shaw and Ardern also seem vague. It will be interesting to see what the agreements relating to this actually look like when released on Tuesday. I’m keeping an open mind on it all, seemingly in contrast to you.

                • Tracey

                  Lol @ evolving. You jump on assumption to assumption that suit you. Have you read Jaques Ellul? He talks of you extensively in Propaganda: the formation of mens attitudes.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Your mind is open, and everyone can see the malice posing as passive aggressive dishonesty and bias.

                  It’s pathetic. Farrar, Williams, Slater, they’re toxic vile people, but at least they don’t lie to themselves about it.

  9. Ad 9

    Hey Marty how’s the stent going?

    • fender 9.1

      This comment prompted me to do a search, and I discovered what you were talking about. I didn’t read Open Mike on Friday (very rare for me) so missed the news from Marty.

      Hope you are recovering well Marty, thinking of you bro.

    • Pretty good off home today happy but bit scared too. I just about was going to participate in a double blind international experimental drug trial but long weekend stymied that.

      Edit will prob have to limit my reading here gotta keep my blood pressure on low side and the beige poo always pisses me off lol

      • Once was Tim 9.2.1

        Did you watch them put it in @marty mars? Pretty amazing tech seeing it all on a screen as they shuffle through your veins.
        Hope all’s well! You’ll be set to take on the PG onslaught in no time

      • weka 9.2.2

        Good to hear you are home marty.

        There’s always Lefties on the Standard posts, which tend to be less blood pressure risky 😉

      • Macro 9.2.3

        Take care marty and all the best for a good recovery.

        • marty mars 9.2.3.1

          Thanks everyone – i did see the before and after photos – pretty freaky. I’ve got a long way to go and it’s also given me a greater appreciation of the psychological aspects of recovery and certainly acceptance. Many on here have had to learn to trust their bodies again I know. My journey on that is underway.

          • Patricia Bremner 9.2.3.1.1

            marty mars, yes having faith takes a while, but you won’t get short of breath now, as blood flows freely.

            Watch out for foods with Vit. K if you are on warfarin. Have everything in moderation xx Watch out for bruising or strains.

            Take it slow and steady. Norm has two stents, and after 6 weeks played golf and felt much better.

            10 years now. Read up about it. Be glad the blockage wasn’t too great.

            Go and celebrate life and the election. 2017 will be your year.

          • Karen 9.2.3.1.2

            Marty, I haven’t been reading TS much lately and missed news about your heart attack. I hope you are now on the way to recovery. Kia ora, kia taha.
            I am very relieved you were able to get the healthcare you needed in time – the world would have been a much worse place without you.

            “Ko te kāhu te whakaora, waiho kia rere ana”.

      • tracey 9.2.4

        A 49 yr old pal of mine had a quad bypass. Trusting her body again and not panicking have been hard to achieve but she has. You are good people marty. Be kind to yourself

        • Incognito 9.2.4.1

          Be kind to yourself and to others

          I hope you don’t mind me completing your sentence.

          It’s not even directed at marty mars specifically but at all good people here.

          @ Marty, I wish you a speedy recovery; the mental side of it is much harder than the physical one but remember “mind over matter”.

      • Andre 9.2.5

        Hey marty, I know my EQ is precisely zero so I’m not going to try to fake being a normal human and try to say something empathetic. It would probably come out Trumpian anyway.

        But several of my near and dear have gone through heart attacks and getting stents. They all got prescribed statins afterwards. They all had to work hard with their doctors and experiment a lot to find a good dose rate that gives the benefits of the statins without too much side effect. So if you start taking statins and feel like they may be messing you up in other ways, get onto it quick with your doctor to adjust the dose.

        And I really hope to see you back here at full strength soon.

      • McFlock 9.2.6

        glad to hear you’re on the mend.

  10. Ed 10

    Jacinda.

    “There is no point gloating about the economic growth of a nation if you have some of the highest rates of homelessness in the developed world.”

  11. Robert Guyton 11

    Kiwiblog’s Farrar writes:

    Socialist Youth leader decries capitalism
    The Herald reports:

    Incoming prime minister Jacinda Ardern says capitalism has been a “blatant failure” in New Zealand when measured by child poverty.

    Ardern is the former head of the International Union of Socialist Youth so it is no surprise that our new Prime Minister thinks capitalism is a blatant failure. I look forward to hearing about the success of socialism in curing child poverty.”

    Sneaky. And you’d have to be dim to fall for his tricks:
    Who is this Socialist Youth leader?
    How does “capitalism has been a “blatant failure” in New Zealand when measured by child poverty (my bold) become, “our new Prime Minister thinks capitalism is a blatant failure”
    Do you think it possible that his readers can’t see how they are being fooled by this sort of twist-wording? Their responses suggest they have no awareness at all.

    • Ed 11.1

      Farrar must be worried.

      • Sanctuary 11.1.1

        Farrar’s reaction so far is that of an insolent and whiney frat boy who bitterly resents getting failed by a woman professor. To which I say keep it coming, we are joyfully lapping up your salty tears of rage.

    • Capitalism isn’t a failure, or at least it’s the least failing economic system of the past couple of centuries.

      It does allow too many people to fail without adequate regulation and social conscience, and that’s what successive New Zealand governments have tried to balance.

      National made improvements on the social costs in someways, and did too little in other ways. They campaigned on promises to do more to address obvious social issues, but the parties that formed the incoming government promised more. This should lead to better outcomes for more people, but it won’t be easy.

      It should be acknowledged that under capitalism (albeit far from pure capitalism) a huge number of people have been lifted out of poverty and have had their standard of living improved. We should strive to better, but it can be a complex and difficult balancing act.

      • Robert Guyton 11.2.1

        Right up to the election, Pete, you professed to not having made up your mind which way you’d cast your vote. Now that the moment has passed, care to share?
        I voted for Liz Craig, Labour and Party vote Green.

        • Pete George 11.2.1.1

          That’s right, I have always left it until election day to until i decided who to vote for. I think that’s especially important with tactical voting under MMP.

          Right up until fifteen minutes before making his big announcement Winston Peters claims he didn’t know who he would choose to anoint as his coalition partner.

      • Robert Guyton 11.2.2

        “Capitalism isn’t a failure…”
        Q.E.D.

      • millsy 11.2.3

        The advances in lifting people out of poverty came largely due to technological developments, ie mechanisation of agrifculture

      • Capitalism isn’t a failure, or at least it’s the least failing economic system of the past couple of centuries.

        Capitalism is most definitely a failure and it’s been constantly failing over the last few millennia. The only that’s been able to keep capitalism going as well as it has over the last couple of centuries has been socialism and the Enlightenment where people actually looked after each other. The times when this didn’t happen was the times when capitalism failed completely.

        It should be acknowledged that under capitalism (albeit far from pure capitalism) a huge number of people have been lifted out of poverty and have had their standard of living improved.

        Did those people think that they were in poverty before capitalism introduced it to them?

        Living without guns and war and trade isn’t the same as living in poverty.

      • David Mac 11.2.5

        Recent efforts to address the concerns you speak of have all seemed to revolve around money. Money ain’t people. An extra $100 a week or a warm dry place to live is the easy part of any solution.

        I think capitalistic solutions lie in creating more opportunities for us to strive and reap the benefits of our efforts. A person working hard in any job, living frugally, they should have a house deposit after some years of studious saving. Hopefully our need for houses can hook up with our need for developing satisfying career pathways.

        If the port goes North, we’re going to need a new Whangarei suburb to house the workers that take up a relocation offer. Close to the coast would be good, make it a desirable spot to live. Developers tendering for the job could be required to partner with North Tec and career paths plotted over the course of the development. 2000 houses would get freed up in Auckland. Capitalism has been working for too few of us.

        • Draco T Bastard 11.2.5.1

          I think capitalistic solutions lie in creating more opportunities for us to strive and reap the benefits of our efforts.

          Capitalism doesn’t do that though. It has people working hard to make others, the parasitical owners, better off. It is this that causes the massive inequality and poverty that always accompanies capitalism.

      • KJT 11.2.6

        Average incomes/GDP in third world countries have been lifted, is not the same as “large numbers lifted out of poverty” as non democratic countries capture increases in National wealth, in the ruling classes.

        The farmers in Mexico, Asia and Africa, who have lost their livelihoods to massive import dumplings of “free trade” US grain, are much worse off, to give just one example. It does free them to work 14 hour days as almost slave labour, in Nike and Apple factories, though.

    • Do you think it possible that his readers can’t see how they are being fooled by this sort of twist-wording?

      I’m pretty sure that’s it precisely. the only way that National ever gets power is through lying and so they have to make the lies believable and so they use spin doctors to use false logic to make it so. DPF seems to be one of their favoured ones.

      And, yeah, indications are that the RWNJs over on Kiwiblog are really dim as well.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.3.1

        Speaks wonders about those who claim a “balance” of opinion, look for the fabled “middle ground” then wonder why they get greeted with ridicule when they get there.

        Earth is flat. With some spherical areas. Or something.

    • red-blooded 11.4

      Jacinda was President of the International Federation of Socialist Youth in 2008 (the same year she first entered parliament). Of course, Farrar is misrepresenting (through implication) the actual nature of this group.

      As I understand it, the federation is more a general leftist alliance than a genuine socialist group (the name dates back to the 1920s, and the group was first formed in 1907, before a split between the communists and social democrats in 1919). Their main efforts through the years have focused on fighting fascism, promoting peace, supporting decolonisation and struggles for independence, working against human trafficking, supporting refugees, promoting human rights, fighting AIDS, promoting youth involvement in political debate and activity…
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Union_of_Socialist_Youth

      I think it’s greatly to her credit that Ardern was elected president of this group. She’s been a strong political activist all her life and has worked on policy and managed the practicalities of an international organisation (100+ countries involved) when in her 20s. Good on her!

      • tracey 11.4.1

        When Key became Chair of a group of right wing leaders set to ensure domination of right wing ppolly parties we were meant to be proud…

        Reds unfer the Beds… the Nats are hurting and Farrar is doing the hierarchies bleeding for them. At least we know how

        English
        Joyce
        Collins
        Bennett

        Are feeling cos Farrar is their mirror.

    • Incognito 11.5

      Capitalism is a failure by many measures. It has led to everything being commodified for exchange (sale for profit) – the few things that cannot be commodified (inalienable) are regulated & controlled in such way that they can still be used to generate profit and accumulate more capital. This exchange is or was meant to be on a voluntary basis but this is an illusion for all intents and practices because free choice and willingness to exchange are not absolute. The same can be said about employment where employers are free to sign a contract or not. Reality is not that black & white. Capitalism demands growth and this, in turn, demands more extraction of (natural) resources. But the biggest failure of capitalism is that we seem to have accepted it as the best available system to conduct our affairs and live our lives; it leaves no room for alternative thinking and any dissenting or opposing voices are silenced very quickly. Ergo capitalism is an abject failure of human thinking and action because it has stymied human evolution to become Homo economicus. Whether this is an evolutionary dead-end remains to be seen.

      • Ergo capitalism is an abject failure of human thinking and action because it has stymied human evolution to become Homo economicus.

        QFT

        Whether this is an evolutionary dead-end remains to be seen.

        Certainly looking that way with anthropogenic climate change and other changes to the world that we’ve made in our ignorance and arrogance and in our pursuit of profit having the very real capacity to wipe us out.

    • tracey 11.6

      Next 1 year old Ardern will be pilloried for not remembering if she was anti or pro tour.

  12. cleangreen 12

    Truck gridlock all over NZ now is the worst seen in history and we have roads not designed to carry all these massively large heavy trucks so good news is coming read this;

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935500

    NZ HERALD SAYS THIS; The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up our highway network are numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are obsessed with getting freight off our roads and back on the railways.
    NZ Herald.
    NEW ZEALAND
    Heather du Plessis-Allan: Winners and losers of the new Government
    22 Oct, 2017 5:00am
    5 minutes to read
    Jacinda Ardern will be New Zealand’s next Prime Minister but who really won when New Zealand First decided to back Labour.
    By: Heather du Plessis Allan
    Heather du Plessis-Allan is a columnist for the Herald on Sunday
    Change is coming. Big change. That much Winston Peters has told us.
    Exactly what that means we won’t know until the new government reveals its coalition policy deals in the next few days. But still, we have enough hints and clues to already declare some winners and losers.
    WINNERS
    Anyone with a car
    The days of freight-carrying trucks cutting up our highway network are numbered. Both NZ First and the Greens are obsessed with getting freight off our roads and back on the railways.

  13. millsy 13

    Pete — you need to stop your shit-stirring. The reality is that if we are to have our side in government then certain compromises have to be made. Plain and simple. This was one such comprimise.

    The stakes are waaaayyyy too high for people to be throwing their toy at the moment. Thursday feels like a long way away..

  14. L0L !

    Been over at The Daily Blog this morning ,… I am so excited about this govt , – and Peters coming war on neo liberalism !

    Go Peters Go , you beauty !!!

    Its going to be a Blitz !!!

    A Ballroom Blitz !!!

    Yeeehaaaa !!! Lets Goooooooo !!!

    Sweet – The Ballroom Blitz (Official Video) – YouTube
    Video for Sweet – The Ballroom Blitz (Official Video)▶ 4:01

  15. Robert Guyton 15

    James!
    The ABs!
    Political and sporting misery
    (I’ll bring you down a blanket and a hot Milo)

    • Ed 15.1

      Was it James’s theory that Jacinda put a curse on the All Blacks?

    • gsays 15.2

      Hi Robert, I don’t think too many rugby fans will begrudge the wobblies their one win in seven.
      Key AB players were out, ockers were certainly hungry, and a little bit of rub of the green (Barnes not sin binning oz player under his posts who came from off side to play ball).

      It is good for rugby the ABs being beaten occasionally.

      • The decrypter 15.2.1

        “Bring back buck”

      • NewsFlash 15.2.2

        Hey G

        The ABs looked out of breath in the 30th min, struggling, the Wallabies had some new players that out muscled the ABs and had more desire to win, I said last week that the Wallabies were expecting to win.

        It’s good for the game to have the top team lose the odd game, but they’re still the top team.

        Twitter was very aggressive against the rant on ZB, every response was critical.

        • gsays 15.2.2.1

          While teams are constantly rebuilding, there is a feel of the ABs being slightly over a peak they have maintained for a few seasons now.

          We are looking at having our depth tested at prop, hooker and to a lesser extent wing and fullback.
          Good on the ozzies, like you I picked a wallaby win.

          As for Twitter, opinions are like backsides, everyone has one, some are more deserving of sharing than others.

  16. eco maori 16

    In my view we are all human first I don’t believe in using race to distinguish/ dived our people we are all on this Waka called EARTH together and we all need to fight for our Mother Earth together . All our worlds culture’s need to work together for a future for our Moko grandchildren . And letting the neo liberals of our world use a word race to dived US what’s the other meaning of race well it mean’s a competition so strait away this word pits us against each other so let’s not let them use that word to dived US so they can hold onto there stolen power. It is not Intelligent and we are intelligent . What makes us unique is our culture and if we all let this thought become OUR reality than we have taken away the main one of the main tool’s that these Idiots use to divide US.
    Now I can see that some of our people with different culture’s are saying he’s just a radical Maori well no I’m not but I am PRO Maori. As it is our culture that has lost the most Mana because of this neo libral bullshit And this is what our society classes me as Maori ie dividing us , I no that being Radical put’s off most other people off one’s cause. Which is a fair and Equal society that respects all people and our mother earth
    and have the ideals that we must leave our Moko Grandchildren a healthy Mother Earth.
    Now this poor boy Kharl Wirepa come on VOGUE can’t you people see that Kharl is being used as a tool to put down our gay people our Maori culture and being used to divide US as the people of New Zealand please see the big picture and give his Mana back , Kharl is one of our people that should be celebrated as how one can go from Rags to Riches with a lot of innovation and determination and Mana / strength/power now let’s help this future Maori leader get his Mana baback that some neo liberal stole from him . Kia Kaha

  17. Carolyn_Nth 17

    A look back to when John Key became PM: 2008.

    RNZ reported:

    National Party leader John Key has won a decisive victory in the 2008 general election, with 59 seats in Parliament.

    National will be able to form a new Government with the support of ACT and United Future. New Zealand First was not returned to Parliament this term.


    National secured 45.5% of the party vote to Labour’s 33.8%.

    The results would give a potential National-led Government, with ACT and United Future, 65 seats in Parliament.

    Labour would have 43 seats, the Green Party eight seats, the Maori Party five and United Future and Progressive one each.

    The Green Party gained 6.4% of the party vote, which would give it eight MPs.

    Co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons told about 200 supporters gathered in central Auckland the results give them a stronger voice in Parliament.

    She also said she wonders whether in 20 years’ time people will look back on this election and say they’re glad they voted for tax cuts rather than the future of their children.

    New Zealand First was on 4.2%, below the 5% threshold to get back into Parliament without winning an electorate.

    The Maori Party won five of the seven Maori seats, and has 2.2% of the party vote.

    Perhaps the Nats were hoping to repeat that victory by taking NZF out to drive them below the 5% threshold?

    The 2017 result in comparison:

    Nats – 44.4% 56 seats
    Lab – 36.9% 46 seats
    NZF – 7.2% 9 seats
    GP – 6.3% 8 seats
    TOP – 2.4%
    Mp – 1.2%
    ACT – 0.5%

    • Carolyn_Nth 17.1

      2009 – John Key’s first economic changes = tax cuts for the rich, with the poor less well of.

      NZ Herald Business writer seems relaxed about it:

      National has unveiled an economic and tax package that will give an extra $18 a week above Labour’s cuts for an average worker but has to reduce expenditure elsewhere to pay for it.

      The package has provided winners and losers in its mix.

      Party leader John Key revealed a slightly pared down tax cut package that puts more in people’s pocket’s next April, but offers less than planned.

      The cuts are funded by cutting planned increases to Government subsidies for those in KiwiSaver and axing research and development tax credits for businesses.

      “Basically it says economic growth is not about savings, and investment and innovation at all, it’s simply about encouraging people to spend,” Dr Cullen said.

      Co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons said funding tax cuts from the science research budget is tantamount to mortgaging the future.

      NZ First leader Winston Peters said: …

      “Instead, they are proposing a reduction in workers’ pay conditions, a cut to the state sector, and a reduction in the amount of investment in New Zealand’s businesses. Such policies have led to lower wages, lower investment, and lower growth in the past and will do so again.”

      In Dec 2008, Colin James wrote:

      As governments go, ours was less profligate but did join the party. The whiplash from towering Budget surpluses to monstrous deficits is the legacy. The new government seems frozen in the headlights, presiding, on its own admission, over nearly the biggest fiscal stimulus in the “rich” world but scared to rein it in.

      We have water in a world that is increasingly water-constrained. (We manage it incompetently but that can be fixed, with a will.)

      We produce high-quality food in a world that is increasingly food-constrained. It will take huge improvements in technology (including water use) and in national and international organisation to meet the food needs of the world’s fast-growing population.

      Included in our food store are vast expanses of well-managed fisheries. (But can we stop others plundering them as they have plundered their own fisheries?)

      We have abundant energy in a world which will be able to ward off shortages only with leaps of technology. This year’s oil price spike was a curtain-raiser. We have vast amounts of coal, oil, gas, wind, steam, water and, when the new technologies reach maturity, sunlight and biological energy sources.

      We come relatively well out of climate change, compared with nearly every other country. There will be a cost but we will be able to adapt relatively easily.

      OK, this next year will be tough and maybe the one after and the one after. But if we want to look past that we have the potential to be very rich — and clean-green with it. Chuck another scallop on the barbie.

  18. Anne 18

    Very good political discussion on RNZ this morning. Perhaps the most insightful was at the end when it was declared… John Key’s announcement to the UN General Assembly concerning the setting up of the Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary had been “nothing but a stunt by and an exercise in personal aggrandizement on Key’s part. There had been no consultation whatsoever with any of the interested parties and they are unlikely to be concerned it has been “put on ice” for the next 3 years.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018618833

  19. joe90 19

    Our Adam’s going to be very conflicted about the ethnicity of this bloke charged with terror offences. A white man!.
    /

    https://wydaily.com/2017/10/20/gloucester-man-charged-with-terrorism-after-ied-explosion-near-cw-nws/

  20. cleangreen 20

    On the funny side look here;

    [deleted]

    [Unless you are the person who originally wrote that on social media, you need to link. Otherwise it’s plagiarising. Getting sick of having to pull people up on this, so deleting your comment and will replace it with a link when I can find one. – weka]

    [From Eva Allan via Grant Robertson’s fb page] – Bill

    Allow me to explain MMP
    There’s one mince and cheese pie left in the shop it costs $5
    Bill has $4.50
    Jacinda has $3.70
    Winston has 70c
    James has 60c
    and David has 5c
    No one has enough money to buy the pie by themselves but Jacinda, Winston and James. put their money together and buy the pie. Bill gets no pie because he needed 50c but didn’t have any friends to help him pay for the pie.
    I hope this helps explain things.

    • fender 20.1

      LOL

      Oh well, at least he ended up with the custard square, even if was all over his face 😀

    • Patricia Bremner 20.2

      This is excellent. You forgot to say, the friends having bought the pie, intend to share it with everyone, not just the 1%.

    • Incognito 20.3

      Nice one!

      Obviously, this example is completely wrong because Bill will privatise the shop and make up any shortfall by borrowing to get the pie and eat it too. He will then raise GST so that all other customers get to pay off the loan + interest and effectively pay for Bill’s pie as well as more into the pockets of the new shop owner who has already put up the price of pies to $5.50 made solely from imported ingredients and made by people on no more than the minimum wage (preferably casually-employed overseas students on Student VISAs).

      This is how National works operates.

      • In Vino 20.3.1

        You forgot that he might be able to double-dip on the very generous pie allowance given to Ministers who do not have pie-bakers employed in their Wellington residence.

    • mary_a 20.4

      @ (20) … well clarified Cleangreen. Proves it’s a bugger not having any friends to help one out when needed 🙂

    • Macro 20.5

      I like that!
      Poor ol Bill – how Sad!
      Never mind.

    • AB 20.6

      Also – did you notice that numerous passers by in the street shouted at James and told him he had a moral duty to give his 60c to Bill.

      • AB 20.6.1

        And Bill said “I am a strong and stable eater of pies. I ate all of the previous 9 and so I have a right to this one too. And I believe Jacinda has an 11 cent hole in her $3.70 anyway.”
        Jeepers – this could become a parable.

    • weka 21.1

      Of particular note is that Labour’s position on the foreign land ownership issue still seems focussed on residential properties (and they’re ok with new builds), I haven’t seen much that’s encouraging on rural land.

      • Incognito 21.1.1

        This is the most recent post I could find on this on the Labour website:

        “Labour will not support the TPP if it undermines New Zealand’s sovereignty.

        This means:

        • Pharmac must be protected
        • Corporations cannot successfully sue the Government for regulating in the public interest
        • New Zealand maintains the right to restrict sales of farm land and housing to non-resident foreigner buyers
        • The Treaty of Waitangi must be upheld
        • Meaningful gains are made for our farmers in tariff reductions and market access

        http://www.labour.org.nz/labour_will_not_support_tpp_if_it_undermines_nz_sovereignty

        • weka 21.1.1.1

          Ardern sidestepped the rural land issue the other day when asked about it. I reckon they’ve got another week to sort out the new govt and then they’re going to have to up their game. Ardern is good at not answering but we’re not in a campaign now.

          • Incognito 21.1.1.1.1

            I agree it’s too soon to criticise but that said, Ardern has been talking up accountability but not much has been said about transparency so far. I hope the new Government is not going to hide behind the toothless OIA like the previous one did.

            • Anne 21.1.1.1.1.1

              Good grief, she’s only been PM elect for three days. Of course she’s not going to say anything much until after Tuesday when all will be revealed – or possibly Thursday after she has been sworn in as PM.

              • ankerawshark

                100 plus Anne

              • Incognito

                During the campaign, in the period of the coalition talks, and as PM-elect Ardern has been interviewed many times and she’ been talking a lot but not saying all that much that is particularly informative IMO, just setting the scene it seems. My comment pertained to what has not been said, so far, to what I’ve been missing from the scene setting. I do believe this is a valid comment under the circumstances, don’t you?

        • Once was Tim 21.1.1.2

          And I suspect one thing Winnie might suggest – if not Labour of their own volition, is to give both CommComm and Overseas Investment Office some clear guidlines. Often they’re little more than rubber stampers.

  21. cleangreen 22

    Austria bans George Soros ha ha ha so should we too.

    http://yournewswire.com/youngest-leader-george-soros/

  22. Penny Bright 23

    If the EU tightens up on its smallest member State – Malta – regarding money-laundering, what more might be revealed about the role of NZ foreign trusts?

    https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21730390-daphne-caruana-galizia-wrote-fearlessly-about-corruption-death-crusading-journalist-rocks

    “The leaking in 2016 of the so-called Panama Papers, more than 11m documents taken from a Panamanian law firm, opened new horizons for Ms Caruana Galizia.

    Her son Matthew is a member of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, which has been mining the documents for stories.

    Last year Running Commentary revealed that Mr Muscat’s chief of staff and one of his ministers had Panama-registered companies and trusts in New Zealand.

    Ms Caruana Galizia claimed, and they denied, that the offshore vehicles received kickbacks from Russians who had bought Maltese passports.

    In April she wrote that Mr Muscat’s wife was the beneficial owner of a company that allegedly received $1m from the daughter of the president of Azerbaijan, with which Malta has commercial ties.

    The government called it a lie.

    …..”

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption whistle-blower’.

  23. Anne 24

    Anyone else spot the online news from Australia? I think it was either the NZ Herald or Stuff. As far as I can tell it’s gone now.

    The Premier of NSW issued a snarky press statement about Jacinda Ardern and “invited NZers to come and live in NSW where growth is on the rise and they would be welcomed”.

    Attached was a video message from the leader of the NSW Labour Party apologising for the Premier’s statement and assuring Jacinda she would be warmly welcomed when she visits NSW.

    How disgusting!

    Wonder if an instruction was issued to take the item down in an attempt to avoid a “diplomatic incident”.

    • NewsFlash 24.1

      Anne

      Saw that tweet, she was slapped down pretty quickly by the wider community for that, both Berejecklian and Bishop have been heavily critisised for their actions against a NZ Labour Govt, both are Liberal MPs in Governments with almost no other women MPs, that says a lot about them.

      Some of the reply tweets reminded Berejecklian what a prick of a place it is get around with a heavily overloaded public transport system from very high population growth, and the City with more tolled roads than any other city in the world, petrol’s cheap but it costs $1200 a year to register your car.

      • Anne 24.1.1

        What I saw wasn’t a tweet NewsFlash. It was a full bodied article complete with the video of the NSW Opposition Labour leader apologising to NZ etc. It’s been taken down now so suspect someone further up the ladder has ordered its removal in an attempt to avoid a diplomatic incident?

    • joe90 24.2

      Sixty plus replies trashing Ms Berejiklian on everything from trains to housing affordability to car racing.

      • Anne 24.2.1

        Wow… that nasty dig at Jacinda back-fired on her big time didn’t it. Think I got through about 100 then gave up…

  24. NewsFlash 25

    An interview with Jancinda from Corin Dann this after noon, Corrin ‘s interjecting when he doesn’t like the reply to start with but settles down towards the end, covers a few good topics, worthwhile watching if you haven’t seen it.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/full-video-pm-elect-jacinda-ardern-nzs-future-and-should-keep-being-world-leader?auto=5621230786001

  25. greywarshark 26

    Here is some good news about a blind man, his dog, some helpful hostesses, and AirNZ.
    We need to hear positive things like this, on a regular basis.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/97957020/blind-man-and-his-guide-dog-thrilled-with-their-treatment-by-air-new-zealand

  26. joe90 27

    So, shitheart navel-gazing is my new fav.

    'Capitalism is a blatant failure', New Zealand prime minister-elect Jacinda Ardern says in first major TV interview https://t.co/09QTg2FOxD pic.twitter.com/Y9qraF1hcV— The Australian (@australian) October 21, 2017

    Political leaders who didn’t know the world before the wall came down. And haven’t been educated about it. A worry. https://t.co/RVKJKA3yM7— Chris Kenny (@chriskkenny) October 21, 2017

    Old farts who tsk a female leader for not sharing their delusion that fighting plutocracy is a slippery slope to Soviet communism. Typical. https://t.co/tMou90Jgfc— Adam Weinstein (@AdamWeinstein) October 22, 2017

    I mean, the shitheart navel-gazing to get from this quote to “Oh tsk, another whippersnapper who knows nothing of The Soviet Evil” is epic pic.twitter.com/Brzgr23cWY— Adam Weinstein (@AdamWeinstein) October 22, 2017

  27. Keepcalmcarryon 28

    Decent aftershock down this way 5.4, no harm done by the sound of it.
    Pretty sure it can’t be a coincidence, labour government, all black loss , earthquake.
    Thinking of penning an article for the herald.

  28. joe90 29

    I’ve not thought about it before but yes, the awful messes on the windscreen after a night drive across the central plateau are a thing of the past.

    Entomologists call it the windshield phenomenon. “If you talk to people, they have a gut feeling. They remember how insects used to smash on your windscreen,” says Wolfgang Wägele, director of the Leibniz Institute for Animal Biodiversity in Bonn, Germany. Today, drivers spend less time scraping and scrubbing. “I’m a very data-driven person,” says Scott Black, executive director of the Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation in Portland, Oregon. “But it is a visceral reaction when you realize you don’t see that mess anymore.”

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insects-gone

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1604/S00004/insect-losses-symptomatic-of-ailing-environment.htm

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