Open mike 23/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 23rd, 2020 - 77 comments
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77 comments on “Open mike 23/04/2020 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1
    23 April 2020 at 6:34 am

    Give yourselves a morning pick-up – read what The Canary has to say about Jacinda and New Zealand.

    https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2020/04/21/people-are-talking-about-new-zealands-coronavirus-response-and-they-really-should-be/

    Not all the tweets are favourable, but most will bring a warm feeling of pride. We are so lucky to have Jacinda as our leader in this time of crisis.

  2. Sanctuary 2
    23 April 2020 at 7:58 am

    Fun fact: Mike Hosking refuses to mention Jacinda Ardern in his daily unhinged rants against the government. Go back, if you dare, and check.

    In the words of the guy who employed him, Bill Francis, he clearly has something "wrong" with him.

    I really, really don't get the Herald's marketing strategy. It puts its most worthless shit-reckons-as-opinion as free, then asks people who read that crap to pay for a subscription. And when that doesn't work, the Herald's management decide the answer is to block anyone who criticises on social media, sack all their half-decent journalists to save money and ask for taxpayer handouts.

    Such incompetent fuckers don't deserve government bailouts.

  3. ScottGN 3
    23 April 2020 at 8:29 am

    Soper’s had a similarly incoherent rant in the Herald today too. The simmering anger and frustration at the way the ancien regime has been upturned is quite scary.

    He’s launched into a strident defence of the Leader of the Opposition’s role to ‘oppose’ the government. And completely ignored the fact that, while that may be so, it’s Bridges’ combative and aggressive tone that’s letting him down, a complete inability to read, and adjust to, the mood of the country.

    Mr Soper clearly hasn’t got much of a read on the way the country is thinking either. Apparently we are a “fearful nation, cowed and forced into submission”, our democracy stifled by the evil queen wielding her iron fist from the bully pulpit everyday.

    National MPs, cruelly confined to idleness in their homes are, it seems, so brainless and lacking in discipline and terrified by the tanking polls that they can’t stop themselves from plotting against the leadership. A leadership team, he then goes on to claim, that they weren’t that enamoured of anyway.

    He finishes with what is becoming a hopeful, common trope for the right, when it’s all over and we’re picking our way through the rubble of the economy, we’ll have forgotten the deeds that saved the country and thinking only about our ruined prospects, turn on the evil queen who’s fault this must all be.

    • Sanctuary 3.1
      23 April 2020 at 8:57 am

      Soper rants are the musings of a past it journo, who no longer really quite understands the world beyond the cosy old boys club he complacently moves in. He is too old, too slow and too f*cking blind, to quote Al Pacino.

      More generally, we've had two revealing slips in recent weeks which should terrify anyone who cares about the future of this country. First was Michelle Boag, who apparently is still some sort of grand old dame of the National party, repeating the COVID-19 faux pas of Kelly-Anne Conway – “We’ve got to remember, this is Covid-19! Presumably there’s been 18 other coronaviruses, on the way to get to 19!” and then Simon Bridges garbled attempt to use a line from Trump about cure being worse than disease. Taken alongside national's aggressive social media strategy of relentless culture war mud slinging negativity – clearly inspired by the GOP – and it adds up to a main oppostion party that is increasing being radicialised by watching to much Fox News and reading too much far-right bullshit from the USA.

    • tc 3.2
      23 April 2020 at 9:07 am

      Grannys also pimping for national with a 'JK praises Luxon' piece. No reporter credited so management has spoken.

    • Gabby 3.3
      23 April 2020 at 12:28 pm

      Has Soapy Baz cried 'Liberate Auckland!' yet.

  4. Observer Tokoroa 4
    23 April 2020 at 9:00 am

    Sickening

    It is such a shame that NZs right arm is nothing but a little school girls' endless tweety screech.

    " Daddy I don't want Jacinda – please daddy – I hate Jacinda. Why do I have to have Jacinda – daddy ?"

    "Could you get me a new Car daddy and a trip to nice Mr Trump – Pleeeez Daddy!. You promised me daddy. " – and a Tennis Bat. "

    "And Daddy – could I sit on dear Mr Scotts knee again. He wants to take me on a holiday. "

    "Why is Mr Hosking such a dirty weasel Daddy. " He is slipping back and back and back and back Daddy ".

    Don't you worry Darling… Mr Hosking is not very well.

  5. anker 5
    23 April 2020 at 9:34 am

    I have considered subscribing to the Herald for the likes of Simon Wilson and Steve Braunias, but will never do that while Hosking still gets a column.

    The pandemic we are all facing has highlighted the complete waste of space of a number of opinion writers such as Heather DA, Soper, Hoskings etc.

    I am hoping that NZders are becoming more discerning in what they read after being exposed to scientists such as Susie, Mike and Shaun……..

    I note the plan B crowd (academics commenting outside their sphere of expertise and setting up a website and paying a pr company) were howling into their soup last week cause no one was listening to them…………..oh dear, what a shame. At a time when tertiary institutions will be cutting costs left right and centre, I still want to know where the money came from for the pr company and website

    • ianmac 5.1
      23 April 2020 at 10:02 am

      I seem to remember anker, an alternative group of academics who jointly disagreed totally with the Team B crowd. A valid response to Team B.

    • Incognito 5.2
      23 April 2020 at 10:46 am

      The Plan B team reckon they’re being censored, but they’re still in the MSM and getting airtime.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018743518/covid-19-contrarians-claim-they-re-being-censored

    • RedBaronCV 5.3
      23 April 2020 at 11:22 am

      The trouble with the paid for academics outside their lane promoting dodgy ideas is that it has the potential to increase public distrust of academics and their institutions generally. Which may well be the end goal.

    • Wayne 5.4
      23 April 2020 at 4:45 pm

      anker

      So you want the Herald to only reflect your views. Given that the Herald is the only Auckland daily paper it highly apprpriate that it has columnists from across the spectrum.

      It might be fine for the UK to have many different papers with different perspectives so you can pick the one that is most like your own beliefs. In NZ we don't have that luxury. All the main dailys have to reach the full spread of readers who live in their region. And not all of the readers think like you (or me).

      • Gabby 5.4.1
        23 April 2020 at 5:45 pm

        Be nice if it reflected the facts and left off speculating, bloviating and opinionating.

    • Tricledrown 5.5
      29 April 2020 at 7:38 pm

      Jordan William's dirty politics muddying the waters.

  6. Andre 6
    23 April 2020 at 9:57 am

    Watching extra-stupid TV really does increase the risk of an early demise. The effect is so strong it's even measurable between smallish differences in degrees of stupid. Such as the difference between Hannity and Carlson.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/4/22/21229360/coronavirus-covid-19-fox-news-sean-hannity-misinformation-death

    • Tricledrown 6.1
      23 April 2020 at 10:12 am

      Hosking has so much money why doesn't he prop up his own company.Welfare for the stupendously well off Money hoarders!

      [Fixed user name again. Please be more careful, thanks]
      [lprent: If you don’t watch out, I’ll add you new handles directly to the auto-spam list. Then other moderators wont’d have to deal with them. ]

  7. John G 7
    23 April 2020 at 11:00 am

    I enjoy Hoskings columns. Braunius is a good satirist but Hosking is the best.

    • lprent 7.1
      23 April 2020 at 12:18 pm

      Braunius is a good satirist but Hosking is the best.

      No-no-no. Braunius satirises others. But Hosking is a one trick pony. He only satires himself.

  8. Andre 8
    23 April 2020 at 11:13 am

    The Talibundy have got themselves a new yee-hahd. Fighting for the right to spread disease.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ammon-bundy-protest-idaho-anti-vaxxer_n_5ea0b7d5c5b69150246cfbfc

  9. Observer Tokoroa 9
    23 April 2020 at 11:22 am

    A Given

    Now that the Right have all declared their wonderful outrage and disgust towards the present Government, there is no point in allowing the Right any further Rights or Services – or Finances from this time Forward.

    The Government will see to this, It will be a bit of a crisis for Armstrong the Noodle; Soper the Slipperite, and Simon the Small Head.

  10. Gosman 10
    23 April 2020 at 12:21 pm

    I've already discussed how you can have growth while at the same time consuming less resources. I don't want to get in to that again here. However what I am interested in is how you think you can fund say increased support for elderly over the next 20 to 30 years in a zero growth economy.

    I'll give you a hypothetical economy to base whatever model you wish to push.

    Current population

    15 people of which 10 are economically active earning on average 100,000 each a year with a tax rate of 30%

    5 people not economically active receiving 60,000 each a year from the tax from the other 10.

    Population in 10 years

    16 people Of which 9 are working and 7 are not.

    If the 9 that are working are earning the same amount are you able to tell me how much the other 7 can get?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 10.1
      23 April 2020 at 12:33 pm

      I saw your argument a while back that we can have growth while at the same time consuming less resources. It won't stand up to scrutiny and it ignores the systems thinking required to design a sustainable economy.

      The problem with your maths example is that economics isn't abstract like that. Or at least where it is, it doesn't make sense, you can't ignore the natural world, nor the nature of complex interacting systems.

      Someone who knows economic theory can argue with you about that, but you still have to address this in the context of the post, otherwise I'll just consider it a derail. In case you haven't read it, it's more a political post than an economics one. If you want to attempt to refute degrowth theories, then you'll have to reference them in a meaningful way.

      • Gosman 10.1.1
        23 April 2020 at 12:35 pm

        No, you disagree with it. Whether or not it stands up to scrutiny is an entirely different argument which I am unwilling to get in to here.

        I note you are unwilling to even engage in quite a simple thought experiment. This suggests you aren't serious about pushing this "No growth" agenda as better people than I will rip in to it.

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          23 April 2020 at 1:01 pm

          You're out for the day. I have no interest in you derailing the thread. You are welcome to comment under my posts, but there are limits on that that you will need to respect. In this case, I didn't write a post for you to run your neoliberal growth is god lines. If instead you had talked about your perspective in relationship to the post, I would know that you had actually read it and that we could meaningfully debate the issues I raised.

    • RedLogix 10.2
      23 April 2020 at 12:48 pm

      Your thought experiment overlooks the opportunity to improve the productivity of the 9 people still working.

      Japan faced this problem at least two decades before most other nations, and solved it primarily with automation and some smart trade strategies.

      • Gosman 10.2.1
        23 April 2020 at 12:49 pm

        Not at all. That is the point of my thought experiment. Increasing the productivity of the 9 people still working is essentially economic growth.

        • RedLogix 10.2.1.1
          23 April 2020 at 12:58 pm

          Improving productivity often generates growth, assuming nothing else changes. But they are not necessarily the same thing.

          Productivity is best thought of as an 'efficiency kpi', and can be measured in many dimensions at once. For example from real life … automating a paper machine can increase it's output, improve quality, reduce the manpower per tonne, reduce energy and raw material inputs, and clean up it's environmental impact.

          In this example 'increasing output' is only one of many possible optimisations. Growth does not always have to mean 'getting bigger'.

          • Gosman 10.2.1.1.1
            23 April 2020 at 3:55 pm

            Productivity increases nearly always lead to greater growth

            • RedLogix 10.2.1.1.1.1
              23 April 2020 at 4:07 pm

              But it doesn't have to. For most of human history scarcity dominated our lives, which meant that 'more' and 'better' were two birds sitting right next to each other on the same branch. Getting 'more' of something was almost always equaled 'better', more territory, more population, more food, more income, more possessions, more status, etc.

              The past 200 years of industrialisation and human development is breaking this assumption down. Now so many of us have escaped poverty and deprivation we are discovering that we have enough material goods to meet our needs and that simply adding more without limit is neither satisfying nor useful. Our priorities shift toward more abstract desires.

              You can still call this growth if you like, but the nature of it has arguably changed.

              • Gosman …
                23 April 2020 at 4:45 pm

                The only time it doesn't lead to economic growth that I am aware of is if the productivity growth is used to expand leisure activity. Hence most of us having two days off every week rather than half a day or just one as was the case 100 + years ago.

                • RedLogix …
                  23 April 2020 at 5:47 pm

                  It was only 2016 that 50% of humanity attained a modest middle class standard of living by local standards. It is by historic standards a fabulous and stunning achievement, but there are still another 4b or more people who have yet to be pulled out of absolute poverty.

                  That means we need to continue with human development for some decades yet, there remains a lot of unmet demand for improved living standards in a purely material sense.

                  So yes we will still see 'growth' for some time yet. But it won't be a linear projection of what we were doing in the past. Productivity gains mean that we can, if we choose, meet that growth with less impact on the natural world than ever before.

                  For example up until recent decades gold mining was an industry that had a poor legacy of toxic tailings and environmental degradation. Now technology means it's entirely possible to operate a gold processing plant with virtually zero waste stream. The plant operated with about 20% of the usual specific energy consumption. And it cost about half a conventional plant design from some decades ago. (I know this because I've done it.)

                  I've made this argument before; with a total population of 7.5b (peaking at maybe 9 – 11b in this century) sitting still with BAU is not possible. We have two broad choices:

                  One pre-supposes that total resources are fixed and finite, therefore humans can either rapidly revert back to the pre-industrial photosynthesis world (and all poverty that came with that), or wind back our industrialisation to eke out fixed resources over the next few centuries until they run out with much the same result. The implication of this is that around 90% of humans must die off.

                  The other choice is to press on with the technology transformation we have already started. This vision asks us to have faith we can find ways to step past apparent limits as we reach them, something we have already done a number of times in the past. Crucially it says that if we can achieve abundant, low cost, zero impact energy production almost all other gains become possible. We can already conceive the outlines of how we might gradually decouple human development from our footprint on the planet. In 2200 we could be living in a world so advanced we can no more imagine it, than our own ancestors could have foreseen our own in 1800. But it won't happen by accident; will require vision, leadership and sacrifice of many sacred cows.

                  This latter view may be wildly optimistic and the destination far from certain, but at least it doesn't innately embrace the inevitability of mass death.

  11. Gosman 11
    23 April 2020 at 12:23 pm

    You are therefore wanting to increase tax significantly in the economy. That is a valid strategy but it has limits. Look at the problems France is having around this.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • arkie 11.1
      23 April 2020 at 12:42 pm

      Look at the problems France is having around this.

      Could you perhaps be more specific? A cursory google only brought up the dispute with the US over a proposed digital tax.

  12. AB 12
    23 April 2020 at 12:41 pm

    Interesting story that I missed earlier. It seems that New York City's rats have taken rational self-maximisation to it's natural end – and created previously unparalleled 'freedom' for themselves in doing so. This miracle of liberty has been achieved (not unexpectedly) through cannibalism

  13. Carolyn_Nth 13
    23 April 2020 at 12:49 pm

    I have reflected a bit on the impact of the Alert level 4 lock down at a relatively early stage in NZ.

    There's been a major shift in the expected way to interact (was watching some neighbours outside in the street having a group discussion, with each person standing a couple of meters from each other).

    Ditto the big changes in how people use supermarkets – 2 meter distancing, contactless deliveries and payments, etc.

    And now we will have phased in non-essential businesses and services. So it has enabled the change in outlook, preparation and practice by businesses and services to conform to a new normal.

  14. RedBaronCV 14
    23 April 2020 at 1:11 pm

    stuff producing some in depth journalism- rich people don't really help the economy.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121202987/rich-migrants-not-solution-to-new-zealands-covid19-problems-economists-say

    • I Feel Love 14.1
      23 April 2020 at 3:28 pm

      I've noticed since Stuff has asked for donations their articles are a little more … left.

  15. The Al1en 15
    23 April 2020 at 3:08 pm

    Michael Moore has released his new global warming documentary for free.

    No doubt all over the net, here's a little write up and the full movie via realclearpolitics.

    “Michael Moore presents Planet of the Humans, a documentary that dares to say what no one else will this Earth Day — that we are losing the battle to stop climate change on planet earth because we are following leaders who have taken us down the wrong road”

    Planet of the Humans

    Or direct link to youtube.

  16. ScottGN 16
    23 April 2020 at 4:33 pm

    ScoMo has said today the the border with NZ will likely be the first one that Australia reopens.

    https://www.smh.com.au

  17. Cinny 17
    23 April 2020 at 4:42 pm

    The Pentagon is planning a multicity tour of the U.S. military’s top flight demonstration teams to “champion national unity” amid the coronavirus pandemic, according to senior U.S. officials and a memo obtained by The Washington Post.

    'murica…..

  18. Bazza64 18
    23 April 2020 at 4:54 pm

    Yesterday's comments about Richard Branson putting his hand out for government bailouts was well timed and good to see.

    Ngai Tahu is a charitable Trust and pays no tax in NZ but they have claimed over $130k for employer subsidies for two of their entities – a Tourism Trust another Rock art charitable Trust. I'm not sure if there are other entities.?

    Seeing as they don't pay tax on their income should the same rules apply to them as to Richard Branson ?

    The counter to this argument is that all their funds go to a charitable purposes which is a fair point, but they aren't contributing to the income tax base.

    • Gabby 18.1
      23 April 2020 at 5:29 pm

      They'd be a NZ organisation I'm guessing.

    • Andre 18.2
      23 April 2020 at 5:54 pm

      Chances are the funds Ngai Tahu generate stay circulating around in New Zealand passing through people and entities that do pay tax, rather than extracted offshore to a tax haven.

    • pat 18.3
      23 April 2020 at 6:56 pm

      The only support they have received to date is the wage subsidy…which goes to taxpayers.

  19. observer 19
    23 April 2020 at 5:20 pm

    This is a remarkably high level of support, in a pluralistic democracy:

    Kiwis support the lockdown, and the extension

    A useful reminder that the loud are not the crowd. And if anyone thinks "well, duh, it's a crisis, of course everyone's on board", then the article includes an interesting comparison with public opinion in other countries.

  21. pat 21
    23 April 2020 at 7:53 pm

    "O’Leary said that Ryanair had already told the Irish government that if it imposes the restriction, then “either the government pays for the middle seat or we won’t fly”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/22/ryanair-boss-says-airline-wont-fly-with-idiotic-social-distancing-rules

    I think thats meant to be a threat…who the target is is unclear.

    Maybe O'Leary has prosthetic legs

  23. weston 23
    23 April 2020 at 9:47 pm

    Last chance tomoro to submit to prisoners getting their rights to vote back apparently.

  24. Sam green 24
    23 April 2020 at 10:49 pm

    Death threats from a Farrar’s minions.
    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/04/alert_level_4_extended_for_five_more_days.html

    About third comment in.

  25. newsense 25
    24 April 2020 at 12:59 am

    Is New Zealand First's caucus discipline better than Labour's?

    Jeezy Creezy.

    Is the talent pool really that thin or are delusions of grandeur setting in during a first term government?

    This is an amazing leadership team, but jimminy crickets, 3 of the newer lot have been shooting for their toes in the last year or so, and certainly some others who haven't exactly earned confidence either.

    Sort it out!

  26. Eco Maori 26
    25 April 2020 at 6:30 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Its good to show respect for your Tipuna.

    We will look back on these times and be thankful.

    That's quite logical a 3rd of ex service people suffering from PDST.

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco Maori 27
    25 April 2020 at 6:54 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Its good that we pay respect for the people who lost their lives fight for our society.

    The Anzac ceremony will be good next year.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco Maori 29
    26 April 2020 at 6:30 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    We can't relax we still have the virus we must keep to our government plan.

    Its good to see neighbours helping out.

    The Aurora look Awsome.

    Ka kite Ano

  30. Eco Maori 30
    26 April 2020 at 6:51 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Bullying is not on spread aroha not hate.

    Te Tairawhiti business will be feeling the crunch as forestry is a big part of the economy forestry slowed down early than most other industries.

    It would be awesome if people supported small fast Kai operations.

    Ka pai to the Rotorua caver kia kaha.

    Ka kite Ano