Open mike 23/06/2019

118 comments on “Open mike 23/06/2019 ”

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1. Macro 1

   23 June 2019 at 7:32 am

   Scottish art and humour to the fore again!

   Edinburgh prankster dresses Antony Gormley sculpture in 'bawbag' pants

   Cast of Turner prize winner’s own body in Water of Leith found in mystery underpants

   

   https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/jun/22/bawbag-pants-for-exposed-antony-gormley-sculpture
2. marty mars 2

   23 June 2019 at 8:06 am

   I really like what Andrew Judd has done – he has fronted up and it is amazing to see the freedom he has created for himself by coming into the light. Kia kaha. Great talk too!

   “ENDING racism is dependent on what is within your heart,’’ says former New Plymouth mayor Andrew Judd.

   Mr Judd, guest speaker at last night’s Tairawhiti Men of the Year Awards, earlier took part in a panel discussion on racism organised by Tauawhi men’s Centre and Tuia 250 ki Turanga.

   The three mayoral candidates — deputy mayor Rehette Stoltz, district councillor Meredith Akuhata-Brown and local government newcomer Jonathan Pere — joined Mr Judd in the panel discussion at HB Williams Memorial Library.

   … The journey away from racism started “within oneself’’ and needed to be real, not “tokenistic”.

   He gave an example of tokenism as someone anglifying the pronunciation of Taranaki when away from a Maori environment.

   Ms Akuhata-Brown asked the former mayor if he could see change “at the end of the tunnel” in the Pakeha system.

   Mr Judd said change had to start “in each of us’’, but “our’’ partnership had not yet started.

   Many Pakeha had never been on a marae and it “went the other way”.

   “Our council chambers are so European.

   “Would you feel comfortable making a deputation on a marae?

   “If not, why not?”

   Mr Judd said he went on a journey to change from being a racist.

   He had not grown up in New Zealand knowing his ancestral land had been stolen, and the emotion associated with that knowledge.

   “I don’t have to live that fight, that experience, that loss, that pain.

   “I don’t how it is to have my language removed by the education system, or to have it mocked if it comes back.

   “I don’t how it is to walk around in my own country as a minority.”

   He was privileged and had never looked at the country’s past.

   Instead he had normalised it.

   Link to Gisborne Herald here
   • Macro 2.1

     23 June 2019 at 8:56 am

     Actually marty some europeans here actually do understand some of these sentiments expressed by Andrew Judd.

     

     The Last of The Clan by Thomas Faed

     Inspired by the Highland Clearances which forced many to emigrate in search of a living, and shows the quayside of a Highland or island village, with a group of figures watching the departure of an emigrant ship for the colonies.

     These people were turfed out of the homes and land they and their families had lived and farmed for centuries by English domiciled owners. Essentially they were forced to leave the country, most never to return. However, those who managed to remain made sure they took their revenge. For instance, in the village of Clachan on the Kintyre peninsular where some of my family were from – and were forced to leave in the 1840's – when the local laird who was responsible died, the villagers did not bury him in the local grave yard, where the rest of his family were buried – but as far away from the village as they could manage, and in a remote and forgotten site.

     We also lost our language. My great-grandparents on the Island of Gigha only spoke Gaelic. I pick up bits of it now and then, and love to hear it spoken, even though I cannot follow most of what is said.

     Don't get me wrong. I totally agree which the sentiments of Andrew Judd, particularly with regards to local representation on marae and in local government. I live in a town where there is a very poor history with regards this matter, and it grieves me greatly. I just want to say that what māori have experienced is not just unique to Aotearoa, but to others as well.
     • marty mars 2.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:04 am

       yes indeed Macro – thanks for that insight and information
     • KJT 2.1.2

       23 June 2019 at 9:47 am

       Lots of us, including those of Maori/ Pakeha descent, have family histories that include the "clearances" and/or, the Irish dispossessions.

       Now, of course, wealthy "foreigners" are again displacing those who have worked the land for generations. As prices become too high for the inhabitants.
       • bwaghorn 2.1.2.1

         23 June 2019 at 9:54 am

         The clearances are being repeated right now in rural nz . Rich foreign buyers buying up good farms so they can cash in on the stupidity that is the ets. About 15 families of which many will be workers leaving one district alone. I believe one workers partner was a teacher in a hard to staff rural school.
         • Pat 2.1.2.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 10:08 am

           that comparison a bit of a stretch but I dont disagree this appears ill thought through….it is a major mistake to expect an unfettered market to provide the right social outcomes….we appear to have learned nothing yet again
           • bwaghorn 2.1.2.1.1.1

             23 June 2019 at 10:12 am

             This is just the start . If we dont act to stop it now rich foreign investors will gut nz for 28 years easy profit while claiming their lifestyle is carbon neutral because they plant some trees on the other side of the planet.

             The ets hasnt achieved a fucking thing yet emissions are still on the rise.
             • Pat …

               23 June 2019 at 10:23 am

               dont disagree with any of that…..the quality (and quantity) of decision making to date dosnt inspire much confidence
             • Sabine …

               23 June 2019 at 11:29 am

               rich foreign buyers can only ever buy the land that land rich kiwi owners are happy to sell.

               and if they are happy to sell to foreign rich buyers as they are able to pay 2 – 3 + the value of the land then that is not the fault of the rich foreign buyer but the issue is with the greed of land rich kiwi owners that rather see their own children with nothing so that they can have a life style playing golf until they fall over dead.

               buyers can only every buy what is offered for sale.
               • Pat …

                 23 June 2019 at 11:37 am

                 you have just described unfettered markets….and explained why we need good policy and laws
                 • Sabine …

                   23 June 2019 at 1:04 pm

                   true, but then laws never managed to regulate greed.

                   and maybe that is what people need to think about first.

                   the foreigners do what they do because people here let them. So you can call on government to regulate which will amount to fuck all as next government can just undo the regulations or you can ask people to start cleaning up their own actions first before they lay the blame to others.

                   the farmer that sells to a foreign entity because they offer several times the value makes a decision to do so. Maybe someone should ask the Farmer/home owner 'wtf mate'?
               • bwaghorn …

                 23 June 2019 at 12:04 pm

                 The people buying these farms to plant are accessing government subsidies (billion trees program) to plant so they can pay more than the competition. Subsidizing pollution in foreign lands while losing our long term income streams is beyond stupid.

                 Would you sell your house for half price to help someone into the market?
                 • Sabine …

                   23 June 2019 at 1:07 pm

                   i have a friend who did this. She inherited her fathers property and sold the one she and her husband had bought in the years since they have been married to one of their friends for way below the market value to get them and their children out of sub standard rental into a property.

                   Why? As she said, i only need one house and have my friend now live stable and be able to provide a stable future for her kids provides me with immense satisfaction.

                   and yes, i intend to to exactly the same when my time comes to move into care.

                   but then, i don't have any attachment to money other then the security and warmth and food it provides. I don't golf, boat, need expensive cars n shit, my values are elsewhere. And besides if i don't sell my property at some stage below market value to one of the kids of my friends (i am childless) then who will?
       • Janet 2.1.2.2

         23 June 2019 at 2:23 pm

         Stigmatize those who are selling the farms to the overseas buyers. The owner and the land agents. They are not caring a hoot for their own communities and New Zealand when they sell off- shore.
     • sumsuch 2.1.3

       24 June 2019 at 9:59 pm

       My Grandma came out from Kintyre. Yes, we had fellow-feeling to fall upon but it didn't really work out like that. We were the first non-English to take advantage of the English-speaking empire. We brought a poor people's doctrine of 'getting on', and it was always at others' cost. The Scots were malefactors, just read up about Donald Maclean, govt landbuyer, who dispossessed the plains tribes of Gisborne, or the 'slave-drivers' of the American South and most of the silly sods who fought for the Confederacy. The Irish felt sympathy better, being locked out of profit.
   • sumsuch 2.2

     23 June 2019 at 10:55 pm

     The rightful politics of NZ are played out in Gisborne. The only place it's necessary to confront/address our treaty partner. Maori. Rehette imagines she can continue voting Right like most white South African immigrants and win Gisborne.

     But capitalism.

     How can we manage this existence, knowing the sweetness delivered to our few lips.
3. joe90 3

   23 June 2019 at 8:19 am

   Bright spot in a dark world.

   One of Africa's largest wildlife preserves is marking a year without a single elephant found killed by poachers, which experts call an extraordinary development in an area larger than Switzerland where thousands of the animals have been slaughtered in recent years.

   https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/wireStory/elephants-poached-year-top-africa-wildlife-park-63731703
   • WeTheBleeple 3.1

     23 June 2019 at 8:47 am

     That is good news. The elephants are a major transport system for fruits/seeds as they come out in the fecal matter intact – they are ecosystem engineers.

     Our Kereru are important ecosystem engineers – the only birds with a gape size big enough for larger native seeds.

     Awww Factor Warning: baby elephants.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkP92X7RaPM
     • greywarshark 3.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 1:26 pm

       I'd never heard that about seeds and elephants. What good news joe90 thanks for the heads-up.
4. marty mars 4

   23 June 2019 at 8:23 am

   Big and tough read

   …They presented their report in 1988. It was called Pūao-te-Āta-tū, “heralding the light of the new dawn.” And it was praised for its thorough research, its insights, and its sheer common sense.

   There was a feeling that this would bring about a revolution in social welfare, especially because of a long-absent but newfound respect for Māori values and Māori knowledge being embraced within the system.

   But recent events at Oranga Tamariki suggest that any such revolution is still some way off.

   This week, on Radio Waatea, Dale Husband asked Neville Baker for his impressions about that 1988 report — and the failing, so far, of Oranga Tamariki to put things right. Here’s a condensed version of that discussion, with Dale initially wondering whether the original report was ever acted on.

   Link here
   • greywarshark 4.1

     23 June 2019 at 1:29 pm

     Thanks marty mars I have always remembered this report though not everything in it. One thing that aroused my curiosity was a reference to the different child-rearing styles of Maori and pakeha. Pakeha were child-centred, and Maori were adult-centred, with the child learning from the adults areound them and from their child peers. Or that's what I took in. I wondered if that should be looked at to perhaps have a middle way that incorporates the best of both cultures.
5. Ad 5

   23 June 2019 at 8:51 am

   I'd like to give a little shoutout to Minister Twyford and the HNZ staff and contractors for opening 16 houses yesterday in Henderson:

   http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1906/S00194/new-state-homes-in-henderson-for-16-families.htm

   Twyford commented: “Of the 16 families moving into these homes, 14 have come from the public housing waiting list and two are existing Housing NZ tenants who have transferred from other areas. I’d like to wish them all the best for settling in to this great new community."

   Housing NZ currently has about 160 active construction sites around Auckland.

   According to the media release: 'The government and the community housing sector are well on track to provide 1600 new public housing places a year funded in last year’s Budget.'

   Solid goods news in winter.
   • marty mars 5.1

     23 June 2019 at 9:15 am

     funny this is what you spat yesterday

     "Popular Prime Minister who is remarkable for being popular, emoting at the right time, and having a baby.

     But leading a government that is changing absolutely fucking nothing.

     The only difference between Ardern and Key is that his children were already grown up when he came into politics."

     https://thestandard.org.nz/national-is-pinning-2020-success-on-someone-who-is-not-in-parliament/#comment-1630601

     Good you've changed your tune from the gnat lines and grown up – never too late even for labour supporters lol
     • Ad 5.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:51 am

       I can still praise them for the small things.

       You can now provide a statistic showing improvement across a policy area.

       The sole government headline that dominated the news yesterday was the variety of gifts baby Neve had received on her first birthday.
       • Anne 5.1.1.1

         23 June 2019 at 10:12 am

         You can't blame that on the government Ad. It was the media supplying the stories lots of people wanted – ie. baby Neve's first birthday stories. Something happy and enjoyable amidst a sea of gloom, despondency and violence that makes up today's world.
         • Ad 5.1.1.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 10:35 am

           Ardern and baby appeared with birthday cake. You don't get that staged coverage without full PM and office staging it very carefully and with an whole bunch of agreements. It was a puff piece from her media team, doing its job.
           • Incognito 5.1.1.1.1.1

             23 June 2019 at 11:12 am

             Not quite, the official caption of the original photo is:

             Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern with her daughter Neve's birthday cake. Source: Instagram / Jacinda Ardern
             • I feel love …

               23 June 2019 at 12:16 pm

               So, no picture of the baby, picture is like what any other parent would put up on Instagram, it's a cake not a child, and people like our PM. It seems to me that the PM isn't using her child as a shield, more the right are using her child as a weapon. Wankers.
       • ankerawshark 5.1.1.2

         23 June 2019 at 10:15 am

         Ad yes it is seemly small given the need…….but huge for those 14 families. Life changing I imagine. I am not sure they could go much faster re building………I am not an expert though. Clearly there is more to come.

         And I still support the idea of kiwiwbuild. Any new housing (provided it is not the mansion type, ) is adding to the stock and turning things around. Kiwibuild goes to first home buyers who need a chance. It would be great to hear from people who have bought a Kiwibuild house, but Collins through her on-line trolling has likely scared kiwibuild owners off from talking. What a bitch she is and I hardly ever use that word.
         • Ad 5.1.1.2.1

           23 June 2019 at 10:35 am

           Agree.
   • A 5.2

     23 June 2019 at 10:03 am

     It's a great start.
   • Jenny - How to Get there? 5.3

     23 June 2019 at 10:09 am

     Yes great stuff. Phil Twyford should be rightfully lauded for this. Now all he needs do is ramp it up, quash Kiwibuild and put all efforts and funds into state housing.

     John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee, John A. Lee
     • Anne 5.3.1

       23 June 2019 at 10:14 am

       Pity they didn't do it from day one but better late than never.
       • WeTheBleeple 5.3.1.1

         23 June 2019 at 10:45 am

         Yeah, but at least they're willing to try new ideas.

         A bit more forethought, lower targets, might've been much less ammo for the haters to pounce on.
         • McFlock 5.3.1.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 7:12 pm

           I like having a government that sets hard goals and tries to achieve them.

           Better than the last bunch of mediocrities who set waffle that they argued was achieved even if they never got out of bed.
           • WeTheBleeple 5.3.1.1.1.1

             23 June 2019 at 8:11 pm

             Absolutely.

             Remember when business ethics meant something and they'd try to under-promise and over-deliver.

             Imagine a government doing that. Game changer.

             Not implying this Government is unethical, reckon they're doing alright the CGT thing gutted me though I kind of understand…

             So long as the priorities keep shifting into saving this sinking ship ecologically I'm not overly concerned they're still prey to big money.

             Reckon our PM would run circles round me, she may have cards up her sleeve.
6. aj 6

   23 June 2019 at 8:55 am

   Chennai's disappearing reservoirs.

   https://twitter.com/blkahn/status/1142187650499121152?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AWeather_West%7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fweatherwest.com%2F
7. ianmac 7

   23 June 2019 at 9:06 am

   'Headline: "'A tough call but the right one': Fran O'Sullivan tackles John Key over the Hisco affair

   Sounds interesting but behind paywall. Anyone tell if it is significant?
   • Muttonbird 7.1

     23 June 2019 at 9:13 am

     Looks like a PR exercise by Key which Fran O was only too happy to help with.

     I haven't read it either but the hook suggests the framing is about Key being a strong anti-corruption type, when in reality the opposite is patently true.
     • ianmac 7.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:46 am

       Maybe you are right Muttonbird. And I suppose Key would twist and deny as usual. I remember Fran interviewing Key and Little at an Election time and how her body talk showed contempt for Little and worship for Key.
       • I feel love 7.1.1.1

         23 June 2019 at 10:21 am

         I remember Fran writing about Keys "big swinging dick", ugh!
         • greywarshark 7.1.1.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 10:45 am

           Better give a source for that – in the media. Otherwise it is a bit in the wrong direction.
   • A 7.2

     23 June 2019 at 10:33 am

     Plug it in
   • AB 7.3

     23 June 2019 at 11:54 am

     Frano has long been a fan-girl of the titans of business. Her normally turgid offerings pop and sparkle with inanity when writing about them.
     • greywarshark 7.3.1

       23 June 2019 at 12:03 pm

       Sounds like our own Ayn Rand; (randy?)
   • Naki man 7.4

     23 June 2019 at 1:55 pm

     The headline sums it up," A tough call but the right one". This article dispels the lies, spin and bullshit. Probably best if you don't know the truth, then you can stay in your naive KDS fantasy world.
     • In Vino 7.4.1

       23 June 2019 at 6:48 pm

       Well, Naki man, you would say that wouldn't you? This morning I found a café where I could catch up on both Saturday and Sunday Heralds. I found Fran's article a bit disjointed, and dependant upon reader being right-inclined anyway, .. Cannot remember it all now, but I know I was not won over, and given your always obvious bias, I consider myself far more balanced than you.
8. ankerawshark 8

   23 June 2019 at 9:06 am

   On a completely didn't note what a game between the Black Caps and the West Indies. Whew a real nail biter. Well done the caps but also a big shout out to the West Indies guy Braithwaite. True Grit
   • Ad 8.1

     23 June 2019 at 9:13 am

     It's a win but New Zealand don't look like any kind of finalist in this gig.
     • ankerawshark 8.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:34 am

       True, its always a bit precarious with the Black Caps……………….They just get there in the end……………but do love their sportsmanship
       • dv 8.1.1.1

         23 June 2019 at 9:43 am

         What about india v Afghanistan

         Last over Afghanistan need 11 runs 4 balls.

         India get a hat trick!!!!!
         • ankerawshark 8.1.1.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 10:16 am

           It was great hearing about the Afhani team, many whom learnt to play with improved bats in refugee camps. Real winners imo. Make the ozzies look pathetic.
     • bwaghorn 8.1.2

       23 June 2019 at 9:59 am

       Na they're good enough. It's easy to button off a little early when it looks a dead cert,but they held their nerve .

       Massive display Braithwaite almost wish he'd pulled it off.
9. joe90 9

   23 June 2019 at 9:07 am

   Dude knows a thing or two about captivity.

   https://twitter.com/MichaelSctMoore/status/1142514916961599488

   https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-german-journalist-michael-scott-moore-released-in-somalia-a-993308.html
   • aj 9.1

     23 June 2019 at 9:16 am

     People who defend such policies need to be sentenced for a month or two, to live under those conditions.
     • Ad 9.1.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:44 am

       +100
     • McFlock 9.1.2

       23 June 2019 at 7:15 pm

       nah.

       Ten years imprisoned under humane conditions. Show 'em how it's supposed to be done.
       • Macro 9.1.2.1

         23 June 2019 at 7:30 pm

         
   • Muttonbird 9.2

     23 June 2019 at 9:19 am

     Is the position taken by Trump on illegal immigration borrowed from the conservative Australian position?

     Trump's actions mirror the actions of successive Australian right wing governments illustrated by internment camps on Christmas Is, Nauru, and Manus Is.

     Australia as we know has had a particularly evil history on the rights and treatment of minorities. It is damning that one of Trumps very worst policies is modelled on their own.
     • joe90 9.2.1

       23 June 2019 at 9:47 am

       It's borrowed alright, and replete with the rhetoric of infestation and contagion.

       https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1142263625014480896

       When President Trump characterized immigrants as “animals,” some people waved it away, claiming he was only referring to gang members. But his use of “infest” in connection to human beings is impossible to ignore. The president’s tweet that immigrants will “infest our Country” includes an alarming verb choice for anyone with knowledge of history.

       Characterizing people as vermin has historically been a precursor to murder and genocide. The Nazis built on centuries-old hatred of Jews as carriers of disease in a film titled “Der Ewige Jude,” or “The Eternal Jew.” As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum notes on its website, in a section helpfully titled “Defining the Enemy:” “One of the film’s most notorious sequences compares Jews to rats that carry contagion, flood the continent, and devour precious resources.”

       https://forward.com/culture/403526/infest-the-ugly-nazi-history-of-trumps-chosen-verb-about-immigrants/
       • marty mars 9.2.1.1

         23 June 2019 at 12:14 pm

         boy that is yucky in the extreme – they are such stuck records these haters – wish they'd just all fuck off.
       • Macro 9.2.1.2

         23 June 2019 at 4:41 pm

         AOC tells it like it is!

         https://www.instagram.com/p/By_iqIZgxQI/
     • Ad 9.2.2

       23 June 2019 at 9:48 am

       It's simply consistent with the abandonment of any moral duty to illegal immigration across the whole of Europe, the United States, Australia, Japan, and most other highly developed countries.

       The policies look similar because they've been under development for a decade.
       • RedLogix 9.2.2.1

         23 June 2019 at 10:59 am

         It's simply consistent with the abandonment of any moral duty to illegal immigration across the whole of Europe, the United States, Australia, Japan, and most other highly developed countries.

         But not unique to them either. For example, how many Syrian refugees finished up in Iran or Saudi, both very wealthy countries more than capable of resettling them? Try entering almost any country undocumented and there will be trouble.

         Mass migration, regardless of the forces driving it, is a growing challenge everywhere. This is yet another global issue where absent any enforceable rules, almost everyone will point the blame elsewhere and take as little responsibility as they can get away with.

         If you want developed nations to be responsible for the welfare of refugees from broken, dysfunctional ones, then you also have to accept they will also have a right to address the root causes of the migration. And currently the collective response to these causes is a total fucking shambles, often making the problem worse than better.
         • bwaghorn 9.2.2.1.1

           23 June 2019 at 11:17 am

           You solve it by just continuously putting people on the next available transport back to where they come from . No ifs buts or maybes. As long as there is hope there will be people trying it on .

           Unless the country is actively at war.

           Then you get birth control and education into every corner of the globe

           Then you actively take from the rich and spread it everywhere.
           • marty mars 9.2.2.1.1.1

             23 June 2019 at 12:07 pm

             stop torturing the poor bastards with hope? – Stand there send them off cos out of sight IS out of mind in this country and closing eyes is an international pastime – could have legs I'm sure but to me it is a barry crocker mate
             • bwaghorn …

               23 June 2019 at 12:14 pm

               Rl has been asking how you stop it happing I chucked my 2 cents in .

               How many people died off the coast of aussie before they went hardline and the boats stopped coming ?

               How many have died between Europe and Africa in recent years?

               Hate will hit fever pitch in the coming years when cc puts millions on the move .
               • marty mars …

                 23 June 2019 at 12:19 pm

                 sure I get your shitting yourself with fear like rl and a few others – I imagine that is how a poor bastard who leaves their birth country and tries everything to find a better life with chances and opportunities to live, feels – pity he'd meet you at the dock with your club instead of a handshake.
                 • RedLogix …

                   23 June 2019 at 1:06 pm

                   sure I get your shitting yourself with fear like rl and a few others

                   Every nation has an immigration policy. Many a lot more restrictive than ours. I've consistently argued from a principled position; legal, policy sanctioned immigration is a good thing and works. Uncontrolled, unconstrained immigration by contrast creates problems.

                   On the other hand you advocate from a position of unlimited empathy, insisting that nations should welcome everyone who turns up at the border. At least this is what seems to be implied by your comments, not just recently, but for many years. At the same time you deny this is tantamount to an 'open borders' policy, yet you never own the obvious contradiction. Maybe I've been reading you wrong and you'd care to correct me.

                   Yet I've never said open borders would be an innately bad thing. Maybe in some future condition of the world, our attachments to the nation state will hold less power over us, and people will freely move around a planet we all regard as one home. The blue globe being the border, all others being of not much more import than say the historic extent of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

                   In the meantime illegal/irregular/undocumented refugees/migrants, whatever you want to call them are a political and moral challenge. Despite what you imagine, I'm not insensible to the personal hell people go through in these circumstances.

                   As I linked to earlier, the source of much of the immigration into the USA at present is from countries like Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador, running extreme social austerity programs, suffering endemic corruption and a failure of good governance. I don't blame the poor bastards who desperately want to get out from it, but ultimately where do you want the responsibility to sit for fixing it?

                   Should it be located in the USA or Latin America? Or maybe a bit of both?
                   • KJT …

                     23 June 2019 at 1:16 pm

                     As the USA is the cause of the dysfunction in those countries, they should fix it.

                     The Marshal plan was a good model.

                     As I’ve always said, if you don’t like refugees, stop fucking up, bombing, their homes.
                   • greywarshark …

                     23 June 2019 at 1:39 pm

                     RL speaks as a statesman, his eyes on the horizon and his head in the pure air of the high hill above the milling throng.
                   • RedLogix …

                     23 June 2019 at 1:50 pm

                     As the USA is the cause of the dysfunction in those countries, they should fix it.

                     Certainly the Americans have a bad track record in this part of the world, but somewhere in that statement there is an implicit assumption that the people who live in these countries are incapable of sorting themselves out. I'd give them much more credit than that.

                     The Marshall Plan was brilliant in it's day, yet somehow it doesn't quite translate in 2019. These countries don't necessarily need more overbearing, neo-colonial entanglement. And I agree totally it's time the big hegemonic powers stopped meddling in other nations. The age of empire must end.

                     Nor does it seem reasonable that the solution should be … 'everyone poor in Honduras just move to the USA'. Ultimately you want the developing nations of the world to develop, to become functional, healthy societies in their own right.

                     In this Trump, in his usual deceitful, garbled and blustering fashion, is heading in the right direction by putting more pressure on Latin America to get it's act together and stem the refugee crisis at source.
                   • marty mars …

                     23 June 2019 at 2:13 pm

                     write 'principled' upon your club it might make the blows less severe – use many languages to ensure the message gets across – bit like this

                     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-K8qi_AoXI
                   • RedLogix …

                     23 June 2019 at 2:31 pm

                     @ marty

                     That is an explicit and open endorsement of murderous violence directed to me.
                   • marty mars …

                     23 June 2019 at 2:46 pm

                     it wasn't meant to be – sorry I got it wrong.

                     I was trying to get at the use of biblical phases to induce fear and how that may work at the border and obviously got it terribly wrong. I apologise for that.
                   • RedLogix …

                     23 June 2019 at 3:01 pm

                     I'll accept that retraction at face value, although tbh I'm not entirely sure I should.

                     Nor does you explanation make much sense; while the US Border Protection and Immigration people are not known for their efficiency, consideration and warm sense of humanity … neither are they routinely on record for summarily executing detainees just because they can. In the early 2000's I spent four days in US detention in Hawaii because of a paranoid mix up over my lack of luggage on a leg of the journey. It was unpleasant and irritating but ultimately it was sorted out. I was treated no better or worse than anyone else … with a practised indifference and strictly by the book.

                     On the other hand I can name four countries that I personally will never attempt to enter for a very real fear that this video depicts exactly how I would be treated; arbitrary detention and no due process at best.

                     The USA may well be a deeply flawed and exasperating nation, but they are definitely not the worst people on the planet.
                   • marty mars …

                     23 June 2019 at 3:02 pm

                     Just to clarify a bit further to allay any fears you may have. I saw you as the samual jackson character and an immigrant as the victim. Thus samual spouts the biblical phase. I never ever saw you as the drug dealer. Because of the juxtaposition of the ironic image I thought that was amusing – A white man being compared to a black man shooting a white man being compared to an immigrant. I got it wrong but that was my intent, certainly not the way you seem to have taken it. So sorry again for the misunderstanding.

                     edit – I have seen your reply – my reply should sort that all out I think
                   • joe90 …

                     23 June 2019 at 4:27 pm

                     neither are they routinely on record for summarily executing detainees just because they can.

                     It's an outfit with a cult of brutality that seems to consider itself to be above the law with a record of dehumanising and mistreating the powerless and lead by a CiC who tacitly green lighted summary executions.

                     Give them a chance.

                     In the days before he allegedly struck a 23-year-old undocumented Guatemalan man with a government-issued Ford F-150, Border Patrol agent Matthew Bowen sent a text to a fellow agent. In the exchange, which federal prosecutors now claim offers “insight into his view of the aliens he apprehends,” Bowen railed against unauthorized migrants who’d thrown rocks at a colleague as “mindless murdering savages” and “disgusting subhuman shit unworthy of being kindling for a fire.” The text message also includes a plea to the president: “PLEASE let us take the gloves off trump!”

                     […]

                     Bowen’s trial is due to begin in August. But the case is already shining a spotlight on a troubled culture at Border Patrol, the law enforcement arm of Customs and Border Protection, at a moment when both agencies have been grappling with a surge in migrants, and faced allegations of widespread wrongdoing, ranging from physical and sexual abuse of minors to housing migrants in substandard shelters, including one likened to “a human dog pound.”

                     The text exchanges between Bowen and fellow agents — entered into the court record by the defense, which seeks to exlude them at trial — suggest a work environment in which demeaning epithets, ranging from “guat” to “fucking beaners,” are common, and in which violence against undocumented border crossers is treated as a joke.

                     https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/matthew-bowen-border-patrol-trial-847878/
               • Macro …

                 23 June 2019 at 3:57 pm

                 How many people died off the coast of aussie before they went hardline and the boats stopped coming ?

                 Actually very few – but the concentration on boat people is simply a red herring

                 Asylum seeker policy, mandatory detention and offshore processing of boat people on Manus Island and Nauru is mostly what you hear when discussing those seeking refuge in Australia. However, most asylum seekers arrive by plane on tourist visas: In 2017-18 there were 27,931 asylum applications in Australia.
             • Macro …

               23 June 2019 at 3:43 pm

               Actually bw NZ is one of the signatories to the 1951 Refugee Convention (indeed we were one of the first to sign up) so your solution is simply not possible under the terms of that international agreement.

               Asylum seekers are those who arrive in a country with or without formal documentation and are seeking refuge – Here is the definition of what constitutes a refugee as redefined in 1967 (the original convention was drawn up in 1951) and is now ratified by 145 Countries including NZ:

               "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."

               The 1951 Refugee Convention is the key legal document under which the UNHCR and all Nations are required to work, it defines the term ‘refugee’ and outlines the rights of the displaced, as well as the legal obligations of those States to protect them.
         • mauī 9.2.2.1.2

           23 June 2019 at 12:51 pm

           Let's say Auckland airport had to deal with 1,000 undocumented passengers arriving into the country every single day, you can bet the NZ response would have an ugly side too. The right have a more effective (albeit unpalatable) solution, hence their rise over much of Europe.
           • KJT 9.2.2.1.2.1

             23 June 2019 at 1:17 pm

             We are already dealing with a greater per capita increase in population, than Germany.
             • greywarshark …

               23 June 2019 at 1:21 pm

               That's okay though, we can squeeze them for money to prop up our education system, lifestyle etc.
               • KJT …

                 23 June 2019 at 1:27 pm

                 Unfortunately most, especially the wealthy ones, use more of our resources than they contribute.
                 • greywarshark …

                   23 June 2019 at 1:36 pm

                   Ah that would be hard to prove because not very good records are kept for the costs to balance the goodies received, usually by the wealthy as you say, while the ordinary citizens receive the crumbs and externalities.

                   externality – Economics

                   a consequence of an industrial or commercial activity which affects other parties without this being reflected in market prices, such as the pollination of surrounding crops by bees kept for honey.

                   Incidentally someone noted a new degradation by Trump – allowing a 'cide that is highly toxic to bees – I think his loose EPA passed it along with other shite they have done.
                   • In Vino …

                     23 June 2019 at 6:57 pm

                     KJT – We have a tiny population compared to Germany, and Germany has heroically stood out in accepting more immigrants/refugees than most others. Care to justify what you state at 9.2.2.1.2.1? Straight numbers are irrelevant if you do not take population and recent intake over several years into account. I call that cherrypicking.
                   • KJT []

                     24 June 2019 at 2:23 pm

                     I said, per capita. If you read what I wrote.
           • Sabine 9.2.2.1.2.2

             23 June 2019 at 1:42 pm

             the point is not that you can't have immigration reform. One reason the US are where they are is literally their incompetence when it comes to enacting meaningful immigration reform and that has been an issue since literally forever.

             The point is that collective punishment of two year old that need a diaper change and a lullaby are not a valid, human, decent immigration reform.

             but i feel your angst of the thousands of people arriving in AKL demanding refuge.
             • RedLogix …

               23 June 2019 at 2:06 pm

               For what it's worth Sabine, I totally agree with that.
             • mauī …

               23 June 2019 at 5:34 pm

               Trump is enacting immigration reform as we speak.
               • Sabine …

                 23 June 2019 at 8:26 pm

                 please add a few links that support your comment.
   • Sabine 9.3

     23 June 2019 at 11:38 am

     https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35646516_1837167259683734_6065987693181927424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQmL2cbO6j_E4Eko9np4bxyec7t0w9_dp_7bpsSyTs_qgCbthJeKMCDq6fxjLJ85qFs&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=2479b727692c1fce1f918e7c88701009&oe=5D8058D6
     • greywarshark 9.3.1

       23 June 2019 at 11:57 am

       Such a good cartoon Sabine. And the UK was preventing Jewish immigration for a while IIRC.
10. CHCoff 10

    23 June 2019 at 9:10 am

    Is it possible to get abit worn out by Cricket being the winner with these table topping Black Cap world cup wins by the lads?

    nope.

    added value NZ all the way.
11. A 11

    23 June 2019 at 10:31 am

    5G on the Corbett Report – sane and balanced coverage from a skeptic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXbvL0uZkrY
    • WeTheBleeple 11.1

      23 June 2019 at 11:29 am

      There are way too many tentacles to this octopus for anyone to reasonably assume they can secure it. The mere existence of the dark web suggests we can't even police the internet.

      We don't like the idea of our computers being hacked and tracked but ignore the screeds of deliberately obtuse legalese on every app. Our data lends power to bad actors everywhere.

      An exponential increase on this where every device is mined for data is dystopian – dressed as progress. Again, our data lends power to bad actors everywhere.

      More misinformation that any one person could ever possibly handle will result. Information devised and intrinsically tailored to bend your head specifically – for a sale, a vote, lolz, souls…

      While Orwell got the dates wrong, we've almost made it to 1984.
      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        23 June 2019 at 11:54 am

        Be cynical, be very cynical. Know your friends weaknesses and your own and talk about them, so you can be open and trust each other.

        Be careful in judgments; suspect others of being possible ring doughnuts, substance on the outside, no integrity in the middle. The people to whom style is everything can fob off real life in favour of a good appearance of life. Good people, trying to be be so but not to be perfect, make better friends – they are not trying to live up to an impossible dream. And they question; like why should I follow this system, who says so and why is it regarded as good, when it can be seen to be deficient in many ways?

        And be careful, so many are scavenging from those around them, trying to get something from you. Trust is a beautiful thing and needs to be kept safe and treasured.
12. Jenny - How to Get there? 12

    23 June 2019 at 10:31 am

    Trump backs down on his threat to begin forcibly removing "millions" of illegal immigrants.

    As I pointed out yesterday the shear logistics of such a round up would be incomprehensible. There are not enough proper sealed vehicles to forcibly confine and transport that many people. The inevitable transit camps needed would have to be massive, dwarfing any detention centres on the planet.

    I asked yesterday whether the American people would stand for it.

    Maybe the President asked himself the same question.

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/06/trump-tries-to-take-credit-for-delaying-the-ice-raids-hed-planned-himself/
    • Macro 12.1

      23 June 2019 at 4:18 pm

      He is simply gaslighting Jenny. It's all in bad faith. He wants to throw the horror of these mass deportations onto the democrats and away from himself.
13. greywarshark 13

    23 June 2019 at 11:01 am

    Do people on the left tend to be the ones against vaccines? This was what I thought I heard from the talk linked to below.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018700927/david-robson-why-smart-people-do-stupid-things 32m

    David Robson is an author and science journanlist whose new book, The Intelligence Trap, examines the reasons why smart people make stupid mistakes and offers a cognitive toolkit for ways to avoid them. He joins the show to look at some of the themes in his compelling and wide-ranging book.
14. bwaghorn 14

    23 June 2019 at 11:21 am

    What does &nsp mean and why did it just turn up 4 times in the last comment I made till I edited them out.?
    • greywarshark 14.1

      23 June 2019 at 11:39 am

      The program uses them as code for a space, you would have put four spaces in your comment, and when you went to edit you would then notice them showing up.

      I didn't check a link I'd put when I edited something and it wouldn't work when someone tried it later. I checked and saw the ampersand etc. at the end and realised why. So some places you can leave them but might have to delete them in others.
      • bwaghorn 14.1.1

        23 June 2019 at 11:58 am

        Ta
15. greywarshark 15

    23 June 2019 at 11:31 am

    From Joe90 9.2.1 Characterizing people as vermin has historically been a precursor to murder and genocide. The Nazis built on centuries-old hatred of Jews as carriers of disease in a film titled “Der Ewige Jude,” or “The Eternal Jew.” As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum notes on its website, in a section helpfully titled “Defining the Enemy:” “One of the film’s most notorious sequences compares Jews to rats that carry contagion, flood the continent, and devour precious resources.”

    Tried and true psychological mind-bait. The USA is in a bad way, Hitler managed to get himself into the political system and then utilise their anger and despair. If better policies had been introduced that were reasonable not just punitive, and smart economic advice paid heed to, we would not have had WW2 probably. Trump is setting up an unreasonable and unbalanced system.

    Money is power, and everything falls away and bows when money and power combine aggressively, apparently. But we have created the financial system to assist we humans to get more things done, achieve more. Has the money service we have set up taken us over, with IT following the same pattern?

    Hitler into power 1929-1934: https://www.bbc.com/bitesize/guides/zpvhk7h/revision/1

    This segment on Hyperinflation, follows details of the Inflation that Germany suffered, particularly after they came off the Gold Standard in 1914, from link below.

    Hyperinflation:

    • By April 1921 the Reparations Commission (REPKO) had set Germany's war debt at £6,600 million. Germany was to pay annual instalments of £100 million (in cash and goods such as coal and shipping).
    • The British economist John Maynard Keynes was very critical of the huge amount Germany was required to pay. He urged the Allies to reduce Germany's reparations to a more reasonable level but his proposals were ignored.
    • Chancellor Wirth began repayments but by the end of 1921 the German government declared that it was unable to make any more payments.
    • Attempts by Lloyd George to address the issue at the Genoa Conference (1922) failed and the American government insisted that the Allies paid their war debts in full.
    • The French saw reparations as a vital part of their future security. They believed the Germans were deliberately letting a crisis develop so they could escape the burden of reparations.
    • In 1923 Poincar' ordered the occupation of the Ruhr, the industrial heartland of Germany, to force Germany to accept her responsibilities for reparations.

    This money manipulation is interesting from around WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bernhard
    • Exkiwiforces 15.1

      23 June 2019 at 7:37 pm

      It's interesting that you posted that IRT the British economist John Maynard Keynes and Lloyd George, as I have a kindle book on my iPad called.

      The Drift to War, The series of errors in British Policy that to WW2. By Richard lamb.

      And I believe that the then PM Lloyd George after the signing of the Treaty of Versailles made the comment that we are going to be here in 20yrs time or the next's world war will be started by Germany be of the hash repayments that Germany under this treaty of Versailles or word to that a effect. As he back then in 1919 observed the conditions set by the Allies for Germany's war reparations was on only to lead to another war which everyone on the Allied side dismiss as a load of bollocks.
      • Poission 15.1.1

        23 June 2019 at 7:49 pm

        arthur conan doyle (1919) address to the anzac club.

        Speaking of the future, Sir Conan Doyle said that thoughtful people could not look at the position without anxiety. The revengeful, brooding German nation, numbering not less than 70 or 80 millions, would be opposite the dwindling French nation, numbering with Alsace-Lorraine not more than 45 millions. If we did not want our children or grand-children to have to do this job again, we ought, now that we had the Germans down, to pull their teeth and cut their claws. (Cheers.) Germany's military position had been actually. strengthened. In place of great military neighbours like the Russia and Austria which existed before the war, Germany would now have on the east and the south a lot of little States, any of which could be neutralized by a German corps or two.

        https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=Exploits_of_the_Anzacs:_Sir_A._Conan_Doyle%27s_Account
16. joe90 16

    23 June 2019 at 11:33 am

    So, it's not a horn, they didn't bother collecting data on mobile phone use, and one of the study's authors is a quack chiropractor with a cure for sale.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/06/debunked-the-absurd-story-about-smartphones-causing-kids-to-sprout-horns/
17. Poission 17

    23 June 2019 at 12:18 pm

    An irreproducible problem.

    Science is supposed to be self-correcting. Ugly facts kill beautiful theories, to paraphrase the 19th-century biologist Thomas Huxley. But, as we learned recently, policies at the top scientific journals don’t make this easy.

    https://slate.com/technology/2019/06/science-replication-conservatives-liberals-reacting-to-threats.html
    • One Two 17.1

      23 June 2019 at 2:10 pm

      The power to ignore.

      'Science' has become dominated by giant corporations who control entire industry including the regulators…

      The same corporations provide advertising revenue which keeps the corporate media vehicles alive to ensure the sales and marketing arms remain functional…

      Medical professionals, especially in the USA are +/- 100% answerable to corporations and their controlled regulators…

      Journals are no different from any mainstream marketing vehicle.
      • Incognito 17.1.1

        23 June 2019 at 2:51 pm

        I thought was reasonably au fait with the world of science but what or which “giant corporations” and “regulators” are you referring to when talking about ‘[s]cience’?

        Medical professionals and scientists are two different categories; an MD is not a PhD.
    • WeTheBleeple 17.2

      23 June 2019 at 4:26 pm

      Thank you for that. The reporting on the original study made it seem there was some implacable divide between right and left thinking – this put me at odds and made me feel a bit hopeless when considering matters of bi-partisanship and reconciliation.

      Nice to see it was clickbait, though the scientists aren't at fault.
      • Incognito 17.2.1

        23 June 2019 at 6:10 pm

        Nice to see it was clickbait, though the scientists aren't at fault.

        No, it was not “clickbait” but a genuine study by genuine scientists that couldn’t be independently replicated. The authors of the original study in Science apparently made assumptions that were invalid. Happens all the time and if the journal had played its part, these assumptions would have been scrutinised in more depth and detail in the second paper.
        • WeTheBleeple 17.2.1.1

          23 June 2019 at 8:01 pm

          Ah yes I wasn't clear. The media clickbait – made a meal of it as it was interesting.

          glad someone was reading more critically than I was.
18. greywarshark 18

    23 June 2019 at 1:53 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/392722/doctors-sign-letter-against-assisted-suicide-bill

    1,000 doctors have signed a letter announcing they will have no part in it. I admire their forthrightness and it just underlines the importance of having a good ethical system from whoa to go. There will be doctors who will be able to take on this task and see it as performing honestly a service, according to the rules on request.

    Dr Sinead Donnelly, who organised the letter, said the bill is unworkable.

    “The message is that as doctors we don’t want to be part of it. You’re going to, in our view, destroy the profession of medicine by drawing us in to ending the life of our patients and two, the risk to the vulnerable is much too great.”

    The letter has been signed by 1061 doctors, of the 17,000 registered doctors in New Zealand.

    I think it is essential to have qualified medical people of an older age, who have experience and wisdom and are not restrained from acting on their own principles by religious precepts or perhaps having elderly people in their own family who do not agree with the idea and would lose trust in them. And that would also apply to many with large numbers of old clients. A doctor in a rural area could hardly take on such a role as he or she might be the only doctor there, so there would be no alternative one to go to for people strongly against euthanasia.

    So factors to think about to get the legislation right. I wonder how many of these objectors are Roman Catholics, which is usually against any changes to their precepts over their followers minds and bodies. But there are a number of people seeking conservative church precepts to give an anchor in a complex world. The thing is, because they can gather large numbers of obedient followers, should they have rule over everything that goes up for personal decision? Trying to get important things through Parliament may be blocked because of conflicts with money and power business blocs; when something is put to the people should the same thing apply with the blocs with the money and power being the religious? Can we hear what practical citizens think about the balance of ethical concerns here?
    • Ad 18.1

      23 June 2019 at 5:34 pm

      I'm impressed you think it's a slur on the names of 1000+ doctors that they might also be Christian. Personally I'd say it's a requirement to acknowledge someone has a soul if they believe they have and are before you dying.

      Christians invented the modern hospital, and invented palliative care.

      Of course you're more than welcome to dismiss over 1000 years of experience and ethical development that they have created.

      Failing that, open your mind to what the actual people who will be charged with taking someone's life have to say on the matter.
      • greywarshark 18.1.1

        23 June 2019 at 9:00 pm

        You might have to buy a new can opener and open your mind Ad. No doctor 'will be charged with taking someone's life'. Your hyperventilating. Better get medical advice before they get the right to jab you with their steely knives!
19. Pat 19

    23 June 2019 at 7:54 pm

    "That’s the conclusion of professors Martin Gilens of Princeton and Benjamin Page of Northwestern, who analyzed 1,799 policy issues before Congress and found that “the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/23/china-america-economic-system-xi-jinping-trump

    We may not want to be like China, particularly when it comes to human rights but do we really want to emulate the US ?

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