Open mike 23/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 23rd, 2020 - 112 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

112 comments on “Open mike 23/07/2020 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    23 July 2020 at 6:39 am

    If you want to be distracted from the various shenanigans happening in parliament, why not muse over the cultural interface between Maori, 5G, and telepathy? Heavens above! https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/14-07-2020/why-maori-communities-are-more-vulnerable-to-5g-conspiracies/

    “In pre-European times, tohunga would sit around a fire and wouldn’t have to physically talk to each other, they had some sort of telepathy. Who’s to say that wasn’t some kind of radio spectrum? Our traditional knowledge tells us there are eight to 13 heavens above us, and we also know that the radio spectrum has all of these different layers as well. All of this traditional knowledge can be adapted to teach the technology of the spectrum. I think if Māori had those stories in the marae, it could help to debunk some of those concerns.”

    Thus spake Karaitiana Taiuru (Ngāi Tahu, Ngāti Kahungunu, Ngāti Rārua).

    a Māori cultural adviser in the STEAM (science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics) area, and a doctoral student at Te Whare Wānanga o Awanuiārangi. He says Māori communities are vulnerable to believing these ideas because of widespread, generational mistrust in the government. The “broken contracts, theft and various other crimes against Māori” over the last 250 years have understandably resulted in a broken relationship between the two groups, he says.

    But who would expect the government to be able to delineate the relation between 5G, the various heavens, and the radio spectrum anyway? Westerners haven't even learnt how to count the number of heavens, have they? Being so far behind in cultural development, how can we be expected to catch up so fast?

    At the very least, we need to create a government department specialising in cross-cultural theology. It could develop a multicultural basis upon which to proceed. Media ought to invite comment from the Chinese ambassador. The Han are known for their cultural supremacy. We ought to be able to benefit from their expertise.

    • roblogic 1.1
      23 July 2020 at 8:47 am

      Funny how projects like 5G claim to represent progress and civilisation, but the behaviour of the political class and economic elites is anything but civilised. All the profits will go to transnational corporations and the expenses lumped on ordinary Kiwis, as always

    • xanthe 1.2
      23 July 2020 at 9:28 am

      " a government department specialising in cross-cultural theology."

      Now thats about the first helpful contribution to the debate i have heard in a long time!

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1
        23 July 2020 at 10:04 am

        Thanks xanthe, looks like you intuit the big picture. Although I was being flippant I can't help it if my serious side comes through regardless! 😉 Finding common ground in our multicultural context will require that sort of focus to determine policy formulation, eh? So our academic tradition of silos will have to give way to multi-disciplinary formats to synthesise disparate views into an holistic composite…

        • weka 1.2.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 12:40 pm

          If you actually want to find common ground I'd suggest not mocking Māori culture would be a good place to start.

          • Dennis Frank 1.2.1.1.1
            23 July 2020 at 1:20 pm

            All in your mind. I believe Maori cosmology adds value to Aotearoa. What is it that keeps driving leftists to see the dark side everywhere?

            I also believe there is value in the thesis that humans have telepathic potential innate. I've read enough about how that creates real-life experiences for many folk to know that science-educated folks (such as myself) are fools to discount that part of human nature.

            Mind-reading can usually be seen to be rationalisable on the basis of intuition & reading facial expressions and body language. Yet to assume all mind-to-mind communication amongst humans can be rationalised like this is actually a leap of faith. One that I have learned is foolish!

            • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2020 at 1:30 pm

              I think it's your commenting style not being a good match for my brain. I read the original comment three or four times and then the replies and it still looked like you were being sarcastic. Maybe it's too much time on twitter, where that questioning rhetoric is invariably mocking.

              • weka …
                23 July 2020 at 1:31 pm

                anyway, looking at the quotes Taiuru seems to be saying something very useful, and I too would welcome a shift to where Māori values and knowledge bases were well regarded and integrated.

              • Incognito …
                23 July 2020 at 1:32 pm

                FWIW, I concur and I spend no time on Twitter at all 😉

              • Dennis Frank …
                23 July 2020 at 1:52 pm

                There's a thing about self-reflective consciousness similar to the principle of reflexivity that Soros identified in market trading in the late '80s. I have a metaphysical framework for making sense of such analogies: the number archetypes. Holistic thought derives from one (as an active principle in nature) and binary thinking (dualism) from two.

                So when you get discourse proceeding on the assumption of truth/falsity, always look for the third alternative! That's why I often refer to both/and logic in my comments. As this reasoning applies in respect of my framing (above) it can be read as mocking or not. Both takes are valid. The reader chooses (unconsciously, mostly). A reader who sees both interpretations is using their right brain hemisphere more than one who doesn't.

                Just to round this off: Aotearoa is bicultural (if we use a binary frame) therefore we ought to see both sides of any issue involving Maori. We need not allow anyone to coerce us into a preference for one or the other. When we adopt this frame, operationally, we synthesise. In terms of the number archetypes our brain engages third gear when we do that!

            • Gabby 1.2.1.1.1.2
              23 July 2020 at 4:06 pm

              It was in my mind too. Dammit, maybe there is something in this telepathy praxis eh.

    • Gabby 1.3
      23 July 2020 at 11:26 am

      You being sly again, eh?

      • Dennis Frank 1.3.1
        23 July 2020 at 11:39 am

        What, me? Now why would you think that? Just doing my civic duty; pointing out the heavenly cultural context of politics in Aotearoa. I'll leave it to others to thrash out the finer details of how much bandwidth sharing gets produced by the political process.

        Mathematicians and physicists, for instance, will probably be required to specify the layers of the atmosphere that correspond to each band, and measure those, even before the tech specs get to the policy makers. Bureaucratic heaven!! 🤩

        • gsays 1.3.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 12:15 pm

          I do recall a colleague with a tanned upper shoulder area, mocking Maori claims to the sky that aeroplanes used.

          He didn't have an answer for the state's right to being able to 'sell' frequencies for radio and television.

          This cross-cultural theology is a great idea.

  2. roblogic 2
    23 July 2020 at 7:45 am

    "National has a misogyny problem"… great thread by @juliefairey

    https://twitter.com/juliefairey/status/1285799779255988224

      • Just Is 2.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 8:38 am

        I've commented on Keys discretion before, the man is a pig.

        In any other western country he would have been dismissed immediately, I was overseas at the time when the incident was reported in the local newspapers, Dismissal was the only acceptable solution for this type of behaviour by the leader of a country.

        In NZ we dismissed it as OK, cos, like, it's just John having some fun.

        Morally Corupt was the man who was at the time NZs most popular PM and the public condoned it.

        • Morrissey 2.1.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 8:58 am

          In any other western country he would have been dismissed immediately…

          Really? In Great Britain? In Australia? In the United States?

          Dismissal was the only acceptable solution for this type of behaviour by the leader of a country.

          Key was an odious creep and a corrupt, malicious politician—but so are Messrs Morrison, Trump, Johnson, Trudeau, and Macron. Then-candidate Donald Trump claimed that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it; Key's bothering of that young woman fits into that same pattern of entitlement and almost guaranteed immunity. https://i.imgur.com/wT4XtDj.gif

          • Just Is 2.1.1.1.1
            23 July 2020 at 10:22 am

            So your saying it was OK for the Prime minister of NZ to fondle young girls hair on live TV and then not take responsibility for it.

            The Leaders you list have come in a long time after the Key thing.

            Morrison, despite being an idiot, would not last 30 seconds if he committed the same offence, the PEOPLE in Australia would DEMAND INSTANT DISMISSAL, and that's the difference between our countries.

            We may be very different from Australia, but the public there would not tolerate that particular type of behaviour, maybe because they haven't had their moral compass compromised by a "used car salesman"

            • Morrissey 2.1.1.1.1.1
              23 July 2020 at 10:58 am

              So your [sic] saying it was OK for the Prime minister of NZ to fondle young girls [sic] hair on live TV and then not take responsibility for it.

              That is one of the most bizarre and inaccurate misconstruals to appear on this site.

              Morrison, despite being an idiot, would not last 30 seconds if he committed the same offence…

              He survived going on holiday overseas while an enormous area of his country was on fire. He survived laughing on air at the suffering of a political dissident. He's survived the scandal of Australian troops committing atrocities in Afghanistan. You think Australian politicians and media chatterboxes are more ethical than New Zealand's?

              We may be very different from Australia…

              Really? How so?

              but the public there would not tolerate that particular type of behaviour,

              So you are contending that the Australian public demands the HIGHEST standards from its politicians. Your view is very different to that of one of Israel's most respected journalists; he was horrified by the depravity and ignorance of Australian politicians.

              In Canberra last week I met some Australian members of parliament. It gave me hope, because until I heard them speak I had always thought that Israel’s right wing politicians were the worst. —-(LAUGHTER)— I’ve never heard any Israeli politician speak about the Palestinian people the way that those Australian politicians did. But they are Australia’s problem, not mine. (LAUGHTER) I spoke with the Australian foreign minister; she talked and she was very nice but we could not agree on anything. (LAUGHTER)

              — Gideon Levy speaking in Auckland, 3 December 2017

              https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2017/12/unbelievable-brutality-day-after-day.html

              • Just Is …
                23 July 2020 at 12:21 pm

                Morrisey you seem to have missed the point, Keys hair pulling is a lot different from a political position being held, Aussies were told it was ok to imprison valid refugees for 7yrs just to use them as a Deterent against people smugglers, highly political when you consider that 100s of migrants were pouring into Australia every day by plane.

                But, Aussies have strong values on sexual behaviour surrounding children, as you probably aware with conviction Pell. Most of the Libs challenged the conviction and helped fund his release, but the ordinary citizen in Australia did not agree with that effort.

                I've lived in Australia for 2 decades at different times and know how different society is there compared to NZ, my most recent return has taken a long time to adjust to the new NZ we have now, many returnees I've met have reiterated that, it's not the same country, a large adjustment at many different levels.

                I'm not saying Aus is a better place, but their standard of morality for the behavior Key exhibited would have seen him gone

                The last stint there I saw 5 new PMs in 7 yrs, so moving PMs along is no big deal, and the last 3 were for next to nothing, usually either to far to right or not far enough to right.

                Unfortunately, Aus is headed for its lowest point in my lifetime.

            • greywarshark 2.1.1.1.1.2
              23 July 2020 at 5:21 pm

              The politicians in Australia ganged up on woman PM Julia Gillard. And the people didn't stop it.

      • Tiger Mountain 2.1.2
        23 July 2020 at 8:58 am

        In the current context of the ILG matter, our glorious ex leader, Mr Key’s behaviour is actually of some use. It was not a waiter, a subordinate, a server, pulling Mr Key’s hair was it?

        Power is powerful, and which ever way you slice it is better not to have relationships with senior work colleagues. If the affair and buzz wears off–is the Minister going to leave? not that likely.

        Judith Collins may regret going there, re Parliamentary affairs, before this election season is done.

        • Just Is 2.1.2.1
          23 July 2020 at 10:25 am

          Don't forget this wasn't an isolated incident, how many very young school girls hair was he filmed fondling, it's unacceptable behaviour for any person in the position on Prime Minister.

  3. I Feel Love 3
    23 July 2020 at 7:53 am

    Young Act, Boogaloo, sexual harassment, libertarians thinking they're above social rules. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/young-act-sexual-abuse-allegations?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

    A

  4. roblogic 4
    23 July 2020 at 8:15 am

    Just to add to the misogyny, Mike Hosking calls the PM "Queen Cindy" but NZME purges it from the "transcript"

    https://twitter.com/nzmrichards/status/1285809489933856769?s=20

    • newsense 4.1
      23 July 2020 at 9:04 am

      Has the campaign started and where is Mike Hoskings campaign promoter statement?

    • Muttonbird 4.2
      23 July 2020 at 9:10 am

      $15million? Money very well spent!

    • Wensleydale 4.3
      23 July 2020 at 10:46 am

      Hosking's intense dislike of Jacinda Ardern is borderline creepy, to be honest. The man's so partisan I suspect he's erected a shrine to John 'Ponytail' Key in his living room.

      Also, expecting NewsTalkZB to exhibit any kind of editorial discretion is probably pissing into the wind. If they had standards, they wouldn't broadcast Hosking's condescending venom at all.

      • tc 4.3.1
        23 July 2020 at 12:34 pm

        We don't have 'standards' as such just a self regulated club of owned outlets. Jude decided that it wasn't required at the time….funny that.

        The material these partisan hacks would provide to an independent broadcasting standards authority my oh my. How busy would they be over what Woodhouse and Boag just got up to as a single example.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.3.2
        23 July 2020 at 1:28 pm

        I suspect he's erectioned a shrine to John 'Ponytail' Key in his living room.

        Fify

        • Shanreagh 4.3.2.1
          23 July 2020 at 2:50 pm

          Was that a Freudian slip?

          Even if not point taken…he may order one of JC as well once he is sure she is going to be there awhile….he was a bit annoyed at having to melt down the bronze on Toddy's one. smiley

  5. Adrian 5
    23 July 2020 at 8:42 am

    There is one way to stop all these myriad problems, from relationships to plagues to climate change once and for all.
    Everybody, everywhere just has to stop fucking, immediately and permanently.

    Lets see how that turns out.

    • roblogic 5.1
      23 July 2020 at 8:50 am

      Well that would solve the core problem of too many humans and our unsustainable environmental footprint.

    • I Feel Love 5.2
      23 July 2020 at 9:08 am

      Bullshit. Only if you equate fucking with misuse of power, misogyny, revenge porn and sending unsolicited unasked for nude pics.

      As far as cheating goes, I don't like it, or accept it, what others like and accept is their business, as long as those relationships are equal. Cheaters are literally untrustworthy and untruthful, whether its fidelity to a partner in marriage or in business.

      And interesting convos with my daughters, both under 13, the 12 year old feeling a bit of pressure because the boys in her class have "rated" the girls, this shit starts early.

      • Adrian 5.2.1
        23 July 2020 at 9:58 am

        I agree, I hate cheats and liars but I dislike dismissers, the only word I can think of but there must be a better one, to address the mythology that only men cheat. It is not possible for there to be say 20% or 30% of men cheating and only 5% to 10% of women, mathematics and research as outlined in the book X and Y establishes that the numbers must be almost equal. Both sexes are equally responsible. There are of course exploitive relationships but they cannot by any means be the norm as this just implies that women are not intelligent and as a male I firmly believe that women are the most intelligent sex. By only a little bit though.

        Do you not think that girls do not also rank boys? My 11 year old son was given a cheap cellphone because he biked 14kms home after school, ( don't ask, he wanted to be a TdFrance rider), and it was a safety device for him but he ditched it because some girls were texting him with what were quite sweet messages that he made him aware that he was near the top of the league table and this was 15 years ago.

        Young people have been ranking each other for thousands of years. It is human nature otherwise none of us would be here without the attraction imperative, we just have to learn to deal with it.

        • I Feel Love 5.2.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 10:27 am

          Of course women cheat, I was cheated on by one, but why whenever mens behaviour comes up we have to say "women suck too!!!". Once there's a flurry of women ministers resigning coz they can't keep it zipped up or sending revenge porn, if my daughters are rating boys and calling them out for being (male equivalent) sluts, lesbians or have "tampons stuck up your arse" then I'll call that out too.

          • greywarshark 5.2.1.1.1
            23 July 2020 at 10:49 am

            It is better to look at one thing in isolation from all the world's ills. Looking at L-G, he has had a relationship with someone other than his official partner. He is spreading his love around. He should not do that and be true to his partner. And that is his business, and his partner's and also of the other.

            Has he been indulging in orgies, where you go and get 'groovy' and feel free, and do whatever you feel like with anyone that you want? That would seem OTT, and not what you would expect a sober MP to do. That would raise questions of probity and decent restraint. There is a matter of balance to be applied in life, and I think it is frequently lacking these days.

            This vox pop from Jordon Klepper gives us some idea of where you end up when people just react and have opinions, and don't think at all, just emote. I think that our idea of democracy and what it can do for the country is a lot of candyfloss. I don't want people like this who make no attempt to think deciding who will run a country!

          • weka 5.2.1.1.2
            23 July 2020 at 12:59 pm

            https://twitter.com/MaahunuiII/status/1285712936258985984

            Wouldn't hurt, at least for a while.

            • weka 5.2.1.1.2.1
              23 July 2020 at 1:01 pm

              To pre-empt all the whataboutery, if parliament was full of women, across the board, including women like Collins and Bennett, parliament's emotional and social intelligence would still have increased massively. Not because all men are rotten, but because women as a class actually want to do something about the rottenness rather than consolidating power.

      • Cinny 5.2.2
        23 July 2020 at 1:30 pm

        this shit starts early.

        Yes it does, and it's horrid. Much love to your girls, please let them know they are not alone.

        Part of the issue I think is the objectification of women in porn and the easy access to porn because of the internet.

        • I Feel Love 5.2.2.1
          23 July 2020 at 3:31 pm

          thank you Cinny, yes was a great chat, letting them know they don't have to put up with this shit, but at the same time they will have to figure out how to deal with this as it will probably occur throughout their lives, such is the world in which we live. But! Schools should be a safe place, like our work places, and all forms of bullying are unacceptable. "This shit starts early", & obviously learnt in the home.

          I will call it out, & support my sisters & daughters. (& maybe some men have never heard womens stories? or women haven't told them and those men way want to think why they've never been told?).

          • Cinny 5.2.2.1.1
            23 July 2020 at 6:51 pm

            I Feel Love, you are doing a fantastic job at parenting and should feel very proud of yourself. I wish my dad had such conversations with me, would have made certain situations in my life a whole lot easier to navigate.

            I'm proud of you my friend, you are a good dad.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    23 July 2020 at 8:51 am

    John Gray's a year older than me, and a retired political philosopher. His academic career featured tenure as a professor of politics at Oxford & Harvard, amongst others. I've got his book about utopianism, which was thought-provoking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)

    On Unherd, he has a review of "Polish director Agnieszka Holland’s film Mr Jones, now released on Netflix". https://unherd.com/2020/07/what-the-woke-movement-shares-with-communism/

    Like Paweł Pawlikowski in Cold War (2018), Holland renders the human experience of communism with unflinching authenticity. The film reveals a kind of horror that can hardly be spoken, only shown — as when the Welshman joins famished children in eating stew, only to retch when he discovers what it is made from.

    So why were western media barons on Stalin's side?? Binary politics. The truth must be made to serve vested interests. Therefore it must be covered up sometimes:

    Gareth Jones, the Welsh journalist (and former private secretary to Lloyd George) who revealed the famine in Ukraine, was not the only person to tell the truth. So did the English journalist Malcolm Muggeridge, who visited the Soviet Union as a fellow-traveller only to have his illusions shattered around the same time. An American trade unionist named Fred Beal, sent to the country by the American Communist Party, visited Ukraine and found silent villages and fields littered with unburied bodies. No mainstream newspaper would publish Beal’s report, which eventually appeared in Yiddish in the New York Jewish socialist paper Daily Forward.

    The campaign against Jones was a response to a question. How could the Soviet state afford its vast programme of industrialisation in the midst of the Great Depression? As the film shows, it was this question that fired Jones’s dogged persistence in search of the truth.

    The answer was the export of grain. The Ukrainian famine was manufactured in Moscow as a by-product of the Soviet need for hard currency. (It was the same imperative that drove gold mining in slave labour camps in the Russian Far East, where hundreds of thousands of Gulag prisoners were worked to death.) Ukrainians starved not because there was no food, but because the food they produced was taken from them at gunpoint.

    Gareth Jones’s achievement, which is well captured in James Norton’s powerfully expressive performance, was to discover the answer to a question that hardly anyone wanted to ask. Western resistance to his inquiry, which cost Jones his job and possibly his life, was partly a result of the belief among western intellectuals that the Soviet state was the last best hope of humankind, which must be defended at any cost.

    For intellectuals, capitalism bad means communism good. For media barons, trade good means truth bad – where that wheat went is a truth defended by private property rights, so don't ask! Binary politics rules.

    • roblogic 6.1
      23 July 2020 at 9:02 am

      Worth noting that the entire MSM is foreign owned, except TVNZ and RNZ.

      Our information is controlled by big news corporations, Silicon valley psychos, or State actors.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 9:18 am

        Which is why politics is always framed as a puppet show. Left hand puppets competing with right hand puppets. The binary structure assumes media consumers & voters will continually swallow the establishment's daily production of shit, and they do, so the system works well.

        • roblogic 6.1.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 10:15 am

          The oligarchs have figured out how to hack democracy… endless torrents of disinformation and paranoia to get people voting against their own interests

        • greywarshark 6.1.1.2
          23 July 2020 at 10:31 am

          Belarus is trying to move out a leader who has been there since 1994? and elections are managed to keep him in place. Democracy is a word, the reality vanished and just theatre remains. And the play becomes closer to Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus*. The young people are sacrificing themselves in an attempt to gain back control of the country by the people. Watch out NZ, signs are here also.

          *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus_(character)

  7. Pat 7
    23 July 2020 at 10:17 am

    How seriously do our governing bodies (local and national) take climate change?…..their actions belie their rhetoric.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018756214/some-tarras-locals-horrified-by-international-airport-plans

    "Christchurch Airport, which is 75 per cent owned by the Christchurch City Council and 25 per cent by the Crown, revealed yesterday it had already spent $45 million on the proposal. This would see a two-point-two kilometre runway capable of accomodating international jet aircraft "

    • Graeme 7.1
      23 July 2020 at 10:36 am

      Game of Thrones amongst airport companies.

      I see this as a blocking move to prevent Queenstown Airport, 24.9% owned by Auckland Airport, doing anything that would threaten Christchurch Airport and the wider South Island tourist industry.

      QAC / AIA were heading down the track of expanded / new airports when covid hit, that's all on backburner, supposedly, but lots of rumours circulating. Hopefully the government involvement in this move will put some realism into the situation and the interests of the wider South Island come into play rather than funnelling all the traffic through Auckland.

      The site has a lot of potential as a transport or residential hub even if the airport idea is shelved or scaled back. Around 200 linehaul trucks go past it most days and that is growing very fast as Central grows. This growth requires a major re-think of transport modes into the region. Put another mode, say rail from Christchurch, into the mix and the site gets very interesting.

      • Pat 7.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 10:51 am

        If…and thats the key word…the Gov were serious about CC mitigation there is no need to implement commercial blocking moves on industry players that protect the south island from Auckland airport ambitions.

        The growth and transport issues remain but it is abundantly apparent the drivers have nothing to do with CC except as cover

      • weka 7.1.2
        23 July 2020 at 1:07 pm

        reinstating rail from Dunedin port into Central. Even at the time, before climate awareness, the pulling up of those lines looked criminal to me.

        If we start with the climate and ecological emergencies, the whole things looks completely different. If we start with unchecked growth then there's no hope of designing sustainable systems. If we start with greed and the need to make money, we may as well just set fire to everything right now. Sorry, got no time for the level of denial from those corporate people, there's no excuse anymore.

  8. Treetop 8
    23 July 2020 at 10:19 am

    Collins anger over the Falloon issue got the better of her and she targeted Lees – Galloway.

    Just like Muldoon's anger got the better of him when he targeted Moyle with an incident which occurred 17 months earlier.

    Had so much not have occurred in the last 2 weeks Lees – Galloway would have lost his ministerial portfolios and probably he would have stayed on to fight his electorate seat.

    I want Lees – Galloway to stand as an independent or to fight for his electoral seat as a Labour candidate.

  9. Treetop 9
    23 July 2020 at 10:19 am

    Collins anger over the Falloon issue got the better of her and she targeted Lees – Galloway.

    Just like Muldoon's anger got the better of him when he targeted Moyle with an incident which occurred 17 months earlier.

    Had so much not have occurred in the last 2 weeks Lees – Galloway would have lost his ministerial portfolios and probably he would have stayed on to fight his electorate seat.

    I want Lees – Galloway to stand as an independent or to fight for his electoral seat as a Labour candidate.

    • I Feel Love 9.1
      23 July 2020 at 3:34 pm

      a few days ago Collins said he needs support and is mentally unwell, now she's saying he's a monster.

  10. Sacha 10
    23 July 2020 at 10:37 am

    Winston First playing politics with Tiwai transition funding https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/421801/pm-s-announcement-of-100m-southland-recovery-package-scuppered-by-nz-first

    The Prime Minister's plan to announce a roughly $100 million recovery package for Southland, in the wake of the likely closure of the Tiwai Smelter, was scuppered by New Zealand First at the eleventh hour.

    …

    A week ago, Ardern, Robertson and Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones visited Invercargill where they met with Southland mayors to discuss future job opportunities in the region.

    That was a week after the smelter announced production would end in August 2021, putting more than 2500 jobs on the line.

    It's understood the visit was originally meant to include the announcement of a 'Just Transition' package – similar to what was unveiled in Taranaki after the government banned future offshore oil and gas exploration.

    • The Al1en 10.1
      23 July 2020 at 10:44 am

      Another clear signal that NZfist aren't just a handbrake on labour/green policies, they're also the shit on your shoe, the fly in your soup and rotten apple in the barrel. Time to get this mob out of parliament for good.

      If you want a progressive labour led government, only party vote green or labour.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 11:22 am

        edit
        Shane Jones this am on Radionz having a go at KiwiBank for being responsible and future oriented and having probity.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/421807/kiwibank-steps-back-from-ban-on-business-with-brothels

        What I heard was about business relating to coal mines, but apparently radionz can't resist practising populist journalism. (Though it is important to accept prostitution as a righteous occupation, relating to mental and physical health.) And Jones referring to 'woke' – well I just think it is time that he practised keeping schtum, as his backwoods bloke approach doesn't fit these ultra-senstive times of sadness and madness.

        The list of businesses Kiwibank says do harm to people or the environment include companies dealing fossil fuel extraction, tobacco, palm oil, casinos, predatory lending, synthetic drugs and weapons.

        Not bank's role to make moral judgements – Shane Jones

        Shane Jones, Associate Minister for State Owned Enterprises, questioned why companies that deal with the extraction, production and manufacturing of coal are included.

        He told Morning Report Kiwibank should "get out of the pulpit".

        "It's the role of the Crown to regulate whether or not there are bads associated with the extractive sector or any other sector.

        "My warning to the chairman of Kiwibank is that the bank that goes woke may end up broke.

  11. greywarshark 11
    23 July 2020 at 11:11 am

    edit
    I wonder if this song would be suitable to go on the authorised political promotion column. I’ve been looking at things I don’t want to see anywhere and feeling depressed. So this is a positive statement for our future. 'I want to be happy' with Bing Crosby.

    Starts: I want to be happy, but I can't be happy, till I make you happy too.

    It seems to me that is the basis of what I am trying for. Everyone getting a chance for a happy life and each person supporting a constructive political system in the country that enables that for everyone.

  12. Andre 12
    23 July 2020 at 11:15 am

    Bit of a tech weenie piece on how to adapt and manage EV charging so it doesn't overload an apartment building's existing supply. It's a useful example of how to adapt to increased electrification without requiring the massive upgrades the naysayer fossilheads falsely cite to argue against electrification.

    https://electrek.co/2020/07/22/charging-hundreds-of-evs-parked-at-a-condo-is-a-solvable-problem-heres-how/

    • RedBaronCV 12.1
      23 July 2020 at 11:53 am

      That was interesting. Now here in central Wellington we need a solution that lets the parked on the street overnight cars charge from a house's stored domestic solar supply. Lets make the power companies redundant!

      • Andre 12.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 12:00 pm

        There's a few thoughts here.

        https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7732287/Oxford-installs-UKs-pop-chargers-rise-pavement.html

        Gotta admit, I'm kinda surprised domestic solar is a viable option in Wellie. Woulda thought the better option was something wind-based.

        • RedBaronCV 12.1.1.1
          23 July 2020 at 12:45 pm

          It's a lovely sunny day here today. ( Wind comments are tactfully ignored). There is some on roof solar – I've just been having a general look – based on the number one motivation of all New Zealanders – shafting the power companies.

          More generally – with deposit rates and borrowing being way down – $10,000 returns only $100 to $200 p.a.- just about any solar system is likely to take at least that off an annual power bill. Maybe panels first then battery storage . Unfortunately the gap between plug in electric vehicles and petrol still isn't small enough.

    • Treetop 13.1
      23 July 2020 at 12:17 pm

      Now were Collin's to announce how long she knew about ILG and saved it up for a rainy day, that would be something.

      Would it be a resigning offence?

      See Falloon issue still more women affected by his behaviour.

    • Just Is 13.2
      23 July 2020 at 12:38 pm

      Did you note the other Headline about Falloon, a 5th complaint has been recieved.

  14. greywarshark 14
    23 July 2020 at 11:45 am

    This is the farmer who loves his land. That trite saying, that fudges everything such as the idea that a farmer is actually a guardian of his land.

    This is the bloke who works on common-sense – which Einstein is supposed to have said is – What you have learned by age 18. The land has been in the family for a long time and now he is bringing it face to face in his lifetime with maximum Extraction of Profit and Efficiency.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/421825/te-anau-farmer-accused-of-destroying-800-hectares-of-native-forest-in-two-years

    • Gabby 14.1
      23 July 2020 at 12:33 pm

      He might find himself being evicted if he's in breach of his lease. Though that's really only something for poor people to worry about.

    • Maurice 14.2
      23 July 2020 at 1:16 pm

      Ummm – "Native Forest" ???

      From the article:

      "when he cleared mānuka on his property to make room for pasture"

      "He denied Chartres had cleared any trees older than 20 years, and said Chartres had existing land use rights.

      "Te Anau Downs Station has had a long history of pastoral farming. Nothing has changed over the period of time that the property has been farmed. There has, [from] time to time, been regrowth of native scrub which has, [from] time to time, been cleared to allow pastoral farming to be continued," he said."

      There is a vast difference between "Native Forest" and "regrowth of native scrub"

      … and it has yet to be proven that any "trees" older than 20 years have been removed.

      A bit of balance is required if farmers are to "save" us with their production for export!

      • mauī 14.2.1
        23 July 2020 at 1:46 pm

        Ecologist in the Environment Court report:

        "[fhe site] has had a long history of disturbance from fire and pastoral activity however, the review of aerial photographs and the tree ring analysis provides evidence that the majority of the area has not been disturbed for over 30 years. The ecological values and effects of the clearance are considered to be high based on the removal of threatened flora and fauna habitat, the removal of the buffering effect on wetlands that were excluded from the clearance and the opportunity for the natural succession of the vegetation toward a beech forest community. The ecological investigation has found clearance of the mature manuka-bog pine shrubland would not have been permitted under the operative district plan or the previous district plan. The younger bracken fern-manuka-bog pine community may have been permitted under Rule HER.3 of the previous district plan but not under Rule BI0.1 of the operative district plan."

        "….The Te Anau Downs East clearance covers an area of approximately 25 ha and appears to have had limited disturbance for over 100 years….."

        Looks careless and intentional to me, and typically there's quite a high threshold before Council's start taking action, so it must be quite bad.

        https://environmentcourt.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/2020-NZEnvC-101-Southland-District-Council-v-Chartres-Others.pdf

      • Shanreagh 14.2.2
        23 July 2020 at 3:28 pm

        News headline, news headline …….human farmer found living under a rock…new creature with no eyes to read with or ears to hear with.

        If this is a pastoral lease then permission must be sought for all of these farming ops.

        Manuka and native scrub if left and possibly fenced off will revert. So press report is quite correct to say 'manuka' and 'regrowth native scrub'.

        The tide went out at least 20 years ago or more on the wholesale clearance of so-called 'worthless' manuka and native regrowth. How will we ever find a tree over 20 years if they are all cultivated away?

        The wool that will 'save' us on these high country farms is fine wool from merino sheep. Merino sheep thrive on dry stony areas and not, generally, on lush low country. They have a predisposition to foot rot that is exacerbated by damp etc.

        The area may have been cleared to work up for on farm crop or for low country sheep. Low country wool production is not going to save us, not sure about the meat side of it.

        A farmer working to the terms of their pastoral lease and the pastoral farming ethos does not need to increasingly bring new areas in for cultivation.

        The type of 'bony' lowland country here might be ideal for testing the regenerative farming concept. It does not growth normal grass/crops very well without large inputs of fertiliser etc.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/416143/regenerative-agriculture-how-a-dairy-farmer-learned-to-trust-his-instincts

        https://pureadvantage.org/news/2020/04/30/insight-into-regenerative-agriculture-in-new-zealand-the-good-the-bad-and-the-opportunity/

        If not a pastoral lease and private then good on the Council. Hope they win.

        Travellers to the formerly spectacular Mackenzie basin will have seen the growth of factory farming there and the loss of native cover and awe inducing views.

        It is good to note that this government has committing to stop the tenure review process for Crown pastoral leases that has been responsible for the growth of factory farming, and for a large dollop of unearned capital asset floating the farmers way from the Crown or people of NZ

        Hon Eugenie Sage Min of Land Information introduced a bill on 16/7/20 doing just this.

        'This omnibus bill amends the Crown Pastoral Land Act 1998 and the Land Act 1948, with a single broad policy to amend these Acts to end tenure review and redesign the regulatory system to deliver improved Crown pastoral land outcomes.'

        ttps://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/BILL_99486/crown-pastoral-land-reform-bill

        .

    • Draco T Bastard 14.3
      23 July 2020 at 1:52 pm

      Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

      Albert Einstein

      And this guys prejudice was obvious – he believed that he could do as he damn well pleased no matter what. Unfortunately, he probably won't have the land taken from him despite his abuse of it.

      Common Sense Isn't.

      Common sense is not what the mind cleared of cant spontaneously apprehends; it is what the mind filled with presuppositions… concludes.

      —Clifford Geertz

  15. Fireblade 15
    23 July 2020 at 12:15 pm

    Victim number five comes forward in the Falloon/National Party dirty sexting scandal.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350394

    • AB 15.1
      23 July 2020 at 12:30 pm

      Yeah, but the false equivalence National were striving for with the ILG release has already been established. As long as the public think "plague on all your houses" then it’s Mission Accomplished for the Nats and their media acolytes.

      • Treetop 15.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 2:20 pm

        19 September will be mission accomplished for the voters.

        When it comes to unbecoming conduct of a leader, minister or an MP, the powers of the speaker of the house and the leader/s of a party need to be managed independently. I have no problem with MPs or members of the public being a witness to a hearing with name suppression.

        All scandals are disruptive to the running of the country because the leader of the affected party has to address the problem.

      • I Feel Love 15.1.2
        23 July 2020 at 3:39 pm

        Maybe AB, that was certainly the DP plan, but not many think cheating is that much of a scandal, certainly nowhere near sending unsolicited porn. A lot of relationships are ppl who got together cheating, I can name some journalist couples that did (but I won't name here, but not that hard to figure out). & notice not many MPs condemning ILG, ha!!!

    • I Feel Love 15.2
      23 July 2020 at 3:36 pm

      Apparently he was a Young Act once.

    • Fireblade 15.3
      23 July 2020 at 3:40 pm

      Police have launched a new investigation into former National Party MP Andrew Falloon.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122228519

  16. RedBaronCV 16
    23 July 2020 at 12:25 pm

    What's going on with the census? The 2013 census, which was only average, cost $90million. The 2018 census cost $126 million and was a complete mess.

    For 2023 the option picked costs $210 million. The gold plated version would be $216 million.

    So why has the cost of the census soared by so much when wages have barely moved?

    And it looks like they want it to be a lot more intrusive of minority groups. Haven't they heard of data set reintegration.

    "It balances the need to maintain the current time series of data with a desire for ever-richer, high-quality data about small groups of the population. [It] delivers improvements to the wider data system."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/421792/stats-nz-advised-risk-2023-census-option-would-produce-very-poor-quality-data

    • Gabby 16.1
      23 July 2020 at 12:41 pm

      It's more expensive because technology is being used to reduce costs.

      • RedBaronCV 16.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 12:49 pm

        Yes I wondered about that. Or have they got tied into privatised contracts that are escalating?
        Or does it have mission creep and the money is being used to support that highly intrusive database that Bill English set up that aggregates all the data that the government holds on each citizen and should be dumped? It only needs one bad actor getting into it.

      • Stunned Mullet 16.1.2
        23 July 2020 at 12:51 pm

        😆yes

    • weka 16.2
      23 July 2020 at 1:09 pm

      no idea, but I'd look first to Key's govt cutting costs.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.3
      23 July 2020 at 2:07 pm

      The 2013 census, which was only average, cost $90million. The 2018 census cost $126 million and was a complete mess.

      And when they didn't do the census it was even cheaper and most certainly wasn't a complete mess. Just that the government didn't have the data that they needed to plan with.

      The 2018 one was a change in systems and could be expected to go wrong in unexpected ways. I actually suspect that the previous census were also a complete mess but that things had been swept under the rug and/or simply not noticed due to the manual system not being fast enough. Census have always failed to complete on a single day and the stats department would spend months backtracking.

      So why has the cost of the census soared by so much when wages have barely moved?

      Well, the wages for the plebs have stayed low or even gone backwards but the wages for the execs has sky-rocketed. And they're probably buying new equipment.

  17. observer 17
    23 July 2020 at 1:16 pm

    More bad news for Judith Collins' favourite attack dog

    With this dirty politics continuing, Collins and Ardern must both answer questions about Slater … because "Both Sides"!

    • weka 17.1
      23 July 2020 at 1:33 pm

      how many court cases has he lost now?

      • lprent 17.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 1:52 pm

        It is easier to count the number that he has won. Which I think totals about zero.

        He has just been avoiding the mire severe consequences by being bankrupt again and again.

    • roy cartland 17.2
      23 July 2020 at 1:34 pm

      Eeewww I just saw that too on RNZ. Back into the hot seat for Whaley-boy.

    • karol121 17.3
      23 July 2020 at 2:07 pm

      Dirty politics is the new NZ politic, although it is no resounding revelation that dirty tactics have been visible in the land of plenty (and well covered) for many a decade.

      Nowadays though, "the bigger the whale the greater the impact" seems to be the perpetual catch phrase and the most preferred ammunition of choice.

      What ever happened to the good old days of political government, simply instilling fear into the populous, and working their way to power on the back of that?

    • Treetop 17.4
      23 July 2020 at 2:43 pm

      For Graig it is about the winning and not the payment for defamation damages.

      Slater finally got what he had coming with his key board.

  18. Just Is 18
    23 July 2020 at 3:12 pm

    This is a very interesting story, yet to be verified, but somehow has a ring of truth. Is it skepticism, or is there some substance that we should all be concerned about.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12350414

    • Gabby 18.1
      23 July 2020 at 4:10 pm

      Is there a story in the hibbledribble that interests you?

      • Just Is 18.1.1
        23 July 2020 at 5:19 pm

        Three Pro Democracy Chinese Nationals heading to Wellington to present a petition to Parliament killed in accident near Toupo

  19. anker 19
    23 July 2020 at 3:20 pm

    was having trouble posting this link so will post the body of the article from Taimi Allan who works in mental health (article from Radio NZ)……

    I was making this point a couple of days back that Falloon's behaviour separate to any issues of grief he is experiencing. Thought this article expressed it better than I did

    Opinion – Mental distress is not an excuse for sexual harassment – let's establish that right away. There is nothing in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) that refers to sending unsolicited sexual images as a symptom of any known mental illness.

    National MP Andrew Falloon has resigned after it emerged he sent explicit images to at least three women.

    Disgraced National MP Andrew Falloon. Photo: RNZ / Nate McKinnon

    We have heard little detail around Falloon's mental health concerns, and that's okay, our mental health challenges are nobody else's business.

    We know he experienced a recent loss of a friend, raising unresolved grief from similar losses earlier in life, and we know that grief and suicide touch most of us, and can leave an enormous psychological toll.

    What we also know however, is that sending unsolicited graphic images to someone is not a known coping mechanism and will not make you 'feel better'.

    Yesterday we heard that when Falloon sent these images, he had been drinking heavily.

    At least one woman has accused him of gaslighting – manipulative behaviour that makes the receiver of such communication feel like or believe they are going crazy. It's concerning that someone who is capable of deliberately making someone else question their sanity has also used mental health problems as an excuse for their inappropriate behaviour towards a teenager.

    Who knows if these claims are simply a desperate measure to control a narrative, to shift blame and avoid personal responsibility. I can't say if Falloon is genuinely in mental distress or not. I haven't spoken with him and don't know the full details, but I have no doubt that the unwanted attention by the public, his own party and the media he is now getting, will almost certainly be contributing to him feeling some sort of distress.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/421783/andrew-falloon-may-be-in-distress-but-that-s-no-excuse-for-bad-behaviour

    [Link included and image re-sized]

    • karol121 19.1
      23 July 2020 at 3:49 pm

      Responding to the DSM reference.

      No, not specifically included, but there is a considerable amount of material in that mental disorders manual which covers various forms of behavioral disorders (including various forms of sexual deviancy), activity which would be consistent with this sort of behavior.

      Also, many disorders which appear to be of a sexual in motivation are often more accurately and appropriately linked to, or associated with individuals seeking gratification by way of disturbing others or dominating others, and even attempting to control others.

      They might, at least, fit into the first two categories mentioned above, that is to shock people or to bully them. We have seen this in the behavior of many parliamentarians.

      I often wonder whether or not the behavior we observe in relation to those holding or seeking publicly recognized positions might also point to a problem, and perhaps a wider problem for New Zealand.

      Falloon's display (I guess) may have inadvertently pulled one of a number of issues out of the box which would seriously beg the deliberation over whether or not New Zealand professionals in public office should be regularly evaluated in relation to both their psychological and emotional disposition.

      Also, in relation to sexting images. Persons (male or female) who directly receive such material where they had neither requested nor encouraged such activity might well be more shocked than offended by such images.

      After all, this isn't just some anonymous server sending unsolicited images to an unknown requester only identified by an internet address, and it wasn't a spam server generating the material as far as the public can ascertain.

      If any of his recipients had just received these out of the blue, they might seriously wonder just what it is the National Party are promoting, not what some errant MP is trying to deliver.

      If the recipients had previously engaged and, in part, encouraged the activity initially, that would be an entirely different story of course. Even individuals providing personal mobile numbers need to be aware that certain approaches can be misconstrued by some people.

    • Shanreagh 19.2
      23 July 2020 at 6:47 pm

      What we also know however, is that sending unsolicited graphic images to someone is not a known coping mechanism and will not make you 'feel better'.

      If you are referring to the exchange in the previous thread…..just to be clear I have never said or implied that grief was/is the cause of people coping by sending inappropriate pictures over the the phone. My views were always in the context of what people do to self medicate to resolve grief. Many drink to excess. Many of these who 'cope' in this way are males.

      When we (royal we) drink to excess we often become disinhibited and do things our more in control selves would not do. Sometimes we (royal we) wake the next morning and think 'wow did I really do that silly DJ act or dance like that.'…other times we, broadly speaking again, may wake knowing we have had an accident, our car is a write off or we have killed someone.

      We don't have an underlying condition as a killer of people or a destructor of cars. We drank, we became disinhibited and our more in control selves were put aside.

      You advised your view then that as a person is while sober, as they are drunk.

      I disagree wholeheartedly with this. My life in the world with people knows that this is not true. I have seen, lived with and been friends with too many people to know this is not correct.

      I haven't spoken with him and don't know the full details, but I have no doubt that the unwanted attention by the public, his own party and the media he is now getting, will almost certainly be contributing to him feeling some sort of distress.

      I get the feeling that dealing with grief, unresolved or not is does not even pass muster as some 'sort of distress' and note that you have not mentioned the suicides of friends as a contributor to his 'distress' in this sentence.

      It seems that there is a hierarchy and that 'real' MH is the permanent MH conditions while real, serious and other happenings are 'some sort of distress' as you quaintly put it.

      Hopefully this is not the view of too many out in the caring community. We want to encourage people to go for help not put them off.

      It appears 'Dr' Judith Collins is also of that view though. She is angry that his 'distress' is also not a 'real' MH condition. He apparently deceived her about mental health issues when really he was sending smutty pictures. She too is operating at the 'act' level not the 'causation' level.

      I guess you can realise by now I don't think much of your linked article. We do not know what caused the bad behaviour and until we can knock out of contention the heavy drinking and the unresolved grief it behoves us to be a bit careful don't you think?

      But again the writer of the article will be pleased to know that Dr Collins also shares her view….Falloon apparently just was just not 'mad' enough to be a person suffering anything to do with mental health, who drank and did bad things to deal with it.

      Because I have these views I do does not mean that I am rationalising.

      Because I have these views it does not mean I am a member of the National Party as was your suggestion before.

      Never have been and never will be.

      In point of fact due to my career decision to join the Public Service, right from the very start I have never ever even joined or donated to a political party as I wanted to work in an apolitical arena as an apolitical person and to be seen as such.

      [Fixed typo in user name]

    • Treetop 19.3
      24 July 2020 at 8:50 am

      Weka so were a police inspector and the cop you were complaining about to have sent switch messages to each other saying "Ramblings of a mad woman, psychologically sick

    • karol121 20.1
      23 July 2020 at 4:29 pm

      Poor Crusher/Gunner Collins.

      She's having man all guns meantime on her Man O War.

      She’s feistier than paper darts, that’s for sure.

  21. greywarshark 21
    23 July 2020 at 5:33 pm

    .
    A change from the usual men's games – Australian league etc.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-23/australian-warships-encounter-chinese-navy-south-china-sea/12481514

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/23/south-china-sea-australian-warships-encounter-chinese-navy-in-disputed-waters
    South China Sea: Australian warships encounter Chinese navy in disputed waters
    Canberra downplays the ‘unplanned interactions’ amid ongoing diplomatic tensions between two countries…

    While it remains unclear exactly where the interaction between the Chinese navy and Australian warships took place, the ABC reported that the warships sailed near the Spratly Islands last week.

    Five Australian warships – HMAS Canberra, Hobart, Stuart, Arunta and Sirius – left Darwin on 5 July and are taking part in drills with Japan and the United States in the Philippine Sea this week, before they head to Hawaii to join a US-led military exercise known as Rimpac.

    What is our position about this?

    • karol121 21.1
      24 July 2020 at 4:26 pm

      Firstly, let's protest to all parties and tell them that it's not a Fair Go. Then, we can warn them that if they persist they will feel the wrath of New Zealand verbal firepower.

      Further, we must tell them that our green and turf heroes and our warriors will mount waka and blockade them if they start firing shots at each other.

      We may then absolutely prove that with a vision of our mythical ancestors, as a nation, we can stop bullets and salvos.

      If that's not our position greywarshark, it god damn should be!

      "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender our expression, our opinions and our perspectives.

      Green and brown warriors, knowing how envious the rest of the world is of our pride and our independence.

      That’s my quarter of a dollars worth greywarshark.

      Now. Where’s that mother freakin’ pipe?

      The drains are blocked and welfare won’t cough up the dough to unblock it. That’s government immorality for you, yet again!

  22. Tricledrown 22
    23 July 2020 at 7:13 pm

    Guess who will be first online when the US gives out vaccines.

  23. Tricledrown 23
    23 July 2020 at 7:45 pm

    Goldsmith doesn't know diddly about economics cutting spending in a recession only makes it worse less money flowing through the economy means lower tax take requiring lower govt spending creating a downward spiral which is National Party austerity their go to policy.

    The health system has been exposed by Covid it needs a massive investment.

    We need to have a world class health system not 30th placed in the OECD.

    With out this we are extremely vulnerable

    • karol121 23.1
      24 July 2020 at 4:50 pm

      Who (or WHO) knows? Alan Gibbs and Peter Goodfellow may have come up with the final solution for New Zealand after all.

  24. sumsuch 24
    23 July 2020 at 11:02 pm

    The Daily Blog computer is having a foggy morning all day long. Send over Lprent.

    I wonder at all the early day commenters here. Fresh air is sweet but evening is a more contemplative time surely. I could make an argument against these free-time commenters versus the originators of the people's movement. But I accept you're all old timers who've got out the other end and prefer cold water and bracing mornings.