Open Mike 23/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 23rd, 2018 - 179 comments
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179 comments on “Open Mike 23/09/2018”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    Andrea Vance warns Bridges and National they had better stay away from gender connotative criticism of Jacinda Ardern.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107269494/the-pms-made-mistakes-but-theyve-got-nothing-to-do-with-gender

    • Kat 1.1

      Yes Muttonbird but then over at the Herald HDPA pours faint praise on the PM for her “zeitgeist capturing” charm trip to the US. According to HDPA the PM is really good at “branding” and “if she plays it right” NZ will “sell lots of products.” HDPA then goes on to say that back home “A few problematic narratives have developed. That Winston is calling the shots. That the Prime Minister doesn’t understand business basics. And, more worryingly, that she can be economical with the truth.” So just wait until Jacinda gets back eh Heather.

      Here is the thing. Leeches like HDPA and her ilk have set the narrative on Jacinda Ardern, false that it is, and continue to play it for all its worth knowing that repeated often and loud enough it must garner some truth. Its a devious and obvious ploy.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12129221

  2. Ad 2

    If there are any high country farmers who read The Standard, watch out for eight days of solid snow and very cold air coming up, then solid south island rain. Bring all your lambs in.

    • Antoine 2.1

      I pity any farmer who looks to the Standard for their weather reports

      A.

      • Ad 2.1.1

        Both Metvuw and Windy are saying the same thing on the 8 day:

        https://www.windy.com/-Rain-thunder-rain?rain,2018-09-30-18,-36.867,174.767,5

      • mickysavage 2.1.2

        I feel sorry for right wingers who automatically rubbish anything said here just because it was said on the Standard.

        Why not check the weather forecast before making a dick of yourself.

        https://www.metservice.com

        MS.

        • Antoine 2.1.2.1

          You miss the point. Farmers can look up the weather reports for themselves, they don’t need to come here for it

          • mickysavage 2.1.2.1.1

            You miss the point saying that you pity someone who reads the standard for whatever reason was a calibrated insult.

            MS.

            • Antoine 2.1.2.1.1.1

              One of the regular standardistas called me a “dribbling dog” yesterday so I have no sympathy

              A.

              • Muttonbird

                That’s a pretty accurate description, tbf.

                • alwyn

                  And some idiot described me as

                  “You guys stole hundreds of millions of dollars from schools and hospitals, Alwyn. By immorally avoiding tax, by hiding money in proxy companies. You stole from our children and made the sick to suffer, Alwyn.”.

                  The diesel soaked seagull hasn’t had the decency to apologise though.
                  She (he? or it?) doesn’t even know who I am but that doesn’t seem to matter. Any rubbish spouted by someone of the left seems to be OK. Just don’t describe Jacinda in terms that the Labour and Green parties routinely used about John Key.

                  • Muttonbird

                    You’re a right winger and defend tax avoidance practice. That’s all I need to know.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      +111

                    • alwyn

                      And I suppose I should simply reply that you defraud the taxpayer in order to support an expensive life style rather than actually leave the money for other needy individuals.
                      Alternatively you could have got a part time job.

                • RedLogix

                  Generally right wingers here know they face a head wind here. If they start dishing out pointless abuse and insults they’ll be moderated pretty promptly.

                  At the same time I see a lot of lefties … playing off their ‘impeccable politics’ …. dishing it out with spades on and getting away with it.

                  Ugly.

                  • BM

                    You’re a moderator, why don’t you deal with it?

                    • Muttonbird

                      How sweet. You two have teamed up nicely.

                      It makes me laugh a bit because you are one of the most abusive and foul-mouthed characters on this board and you’ve been banned several times for it.

                    • BM

                      I very rarely abuse other posters and if I do it’s normally because someone gave me a serve.

                      You, on the other hand, do nothing but abuse, maybe you’re the one that should be banned?

                    • Muttonbird

                      I do a lot of long form comments with original content. Quite a bit of research and linking goes into them actually. In fact I comment on current items before the authors get around to doing a post on them. Y’know, I actually contribute to this site. My commenting goes in phases depending how much work I’ve got on at the time.

                      Your comments however are all short form trolling – every single one. And swearing and abuse is never far from the surface because you appear to trigger easily.

                      You’ve had several bans because of it so the form is there, and everyone recognises it. No good pretending to be an angel now, BM.

                    • Incognito

                      Heard of self-moderation?

                    • RedLogix

                      @Muttonbird

                      I do a lot of long form comments with original content. Quite a bit of research and linking goes into them actually. In fact I comment on current items before the authors get around to doing a post on them. Y’know, I actually contribute to this site.

                      Well and good. I guess you could call that putting brownie points in the bank and it makes you feel safe about the odd ‘dribbling dog’ moment.

                      Or as Incognito says, heard of ‘self moderation’ ?

              • Incognito

                It’s not about sympathy but something that vaguely resembles an intelligent contribution would be nice.

              • Draco T Bastard

                And your responses in this thread seem to have confirmed that description.

      • Dukeofurl 2.1.3

        Why not The Standard /
        After all the other alternative is that socialist organ of creeping state control :
        Metservice

      • Ankerrawshark 2.1.4

        Antoine, i am not a farmer, but I think Ads message about the weather was meant to be helpful.

        I think you were trying to be funny, because it would be something if farmers read the standard to get their weather news.

        I must say I often find that the standard has the news first or has stuff that is buried on other websites. I often say to my husband about news items that I read it on the standard first e g Peters telling Simon in parliament that the identity of the leaker is out. Didn’t see that anywhere else. So thanks to all the great writers here who do a better job than the overpaid msm.

      • Ad 2.1.5

        Two weeks ago over 500 lambs died in the sleet in the Hawkes Bay high country.
        There was plenty of detail about it on RNZ Country Life.

        While it’s easy to dismiss the wee things since they’ll all be roasted at Sainsbury’s, you don’t need to kill sentient beings through neglect and long cruel suffering when there’s an answer as simple as taking the forecast seriously and bringing the flock in from the high country before it all happens.

        Farmers who ignore animal welfare will see their exports go the same way as coarse wool has: near-extinct.

        • Dukeofurl 2.1.5.1

          Those werent ‘high country’ lambs.
          You seem to think farmers can ‘bring things’ in like you do with the washing on the line.
          Im not connected with sheep farming but these are not vast stations in HB like the South Island and what land you have is much the same exposure all over the farm. As well it was the amount of rain that did the lambs in as the wet didnt allow them to stay warm.

          • bwaghorn 2.1.5.1.1

            Yip once the ewes are set stocked for lambing we are at the mercy of the wether. Shelter in paddocks help but if you get more than a day of wind driven rain (especially from southerly directions) there is little can be done .

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    One of the most important petitions IMHO calling for restrictions on who can bring money into existence in NZ. Pls share far and wide.

    http://www.positivemoney.org.nz/Site/petition/default.aspx

  4. Ad 4

    As Prime Minister Ardern sets out for the US and UN, HdPA goes all-in for fangirldom, claiming Ardern already outshines both Key and Clark on the international stage:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12129221

    I agree with the potential for this.

    The big question to my mind is whether New Zealand business, and MFAT and NZTE, can show that they are and will continue to get behind this kind of exceedingly popular and televisual leader.

    Because so far much of New Zealand business are unable to rise to the challenge and leadership of this government.

    • Muttonbird 4.1

      That’s a good challenge to the New Zealand business sector. I notice you set that challenge, not HDHP.

      Lets see if the NZ business community can get over themselves and use JA’s appeal to their advantage. The ball’s in their court.

      • Ad 4.1.1

        I’m not suggesting that they will arrive en masse for this one, but the NZ business community need to wake up to the fact that there has been a change of government.

        That’s where MFAT and NZTE are so vital. And of course the PM’s new business leadership group.

        When an overseas visit is designed like a trade mission – such as the ongoing EU Trade Deal talks – MFAT and NZTE need to round up the business leadership and set up the parallel trade track-meets to make the most of it.

        I would hope that we could sell more than lambswool baby booties out of this.

        • Graeme 4.1.1.1

          I think it might be a bit past the selling stage, creative industries are going gangbusters and tourism out of North America is buoyant to going off. Primary exports into there won’t be far behind.

          This in granny this morning, along with HDPA’s thing

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12129215

          The film industry in Southern Lakes is very busy, after a very quiet patch that coincided with the late government, and they are tearing around looking for staff, both cast and crew. It’s partly dollar related, but there’s a political aspect to it as well, our government is seen as pretty cool. The government can probably lay claim to the lower dollar as well, it’s running policies that result in a lower dollar and benefit export industries.

          The importing grumps will come around, once they see the export side take off. just like it did in 2000 after the grumps’ winter of discontent.

          • Ad 4.1.1.1.1

            They definitely did come around, but it took the full-country effort towards the China FTA, and the Growth and Innovation launch, to really turn that relationship around.

            We don’t have that national-scale impetus for business to engage with government. Yet.

            Despite the Prime Minster’s speech last week showing coherence across government, I see the government’s approach to business as being either narrowly sectoral as per dairy and transport, or scattergun as per the Provincial Growth Fund.

          • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.2

            I think one thing that we need is encouragement for small business making for the domestic market. The country can’t run on boom and bust cycles of film making, all on, and all off. Peter Jackson has done much to lessen that – the NZ unions didn’t look at this strategically.

            Tourism is welcome until it gets like Argentinian ants.

            And always the trouble of business that is going gang-busters is it gets sold to overseas interests, or is already in their hands or the major part of its shareholding. We need a central fund that will buy some businesses that are likely to be long-running and have regional importance. Cadbury is an example in Dunedin.

            2017 Cadbury – After 80 years in operation manufacturing is set to move to Australia. Source: 1 NEWS
            (Cadbury’s Dunedin factory processes more than 30 tonnes of liquid chocolate a day and employs just under 300 fulltime staff and around 100 seasonal workers.)
            https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/cadbury-chocolate-factory-in-dunedin-set-close-down-next-year

            2018 – 3 Sept 2018
            Fast forward five years and OCHO was sold to more than 3,000 small investors on the back of the announcement of the closure of the Dunedin Cadbury Factory. It was the most successful equity crowdfunding campaign in New Zealand, raising the maximum $2 million in less than two days. A broad base of community ownership, fair pay for our bean suppliers, and fair working conditions were table stakes in forming the new OCHO.
            https://ocho.co.nz/pages/our-story

            The chocolate market is growing. But chocolate comes from areas with high humidity, warmth and yet shade. We could grow it in Northland, plantations of it with the right trees to provide the shade. Is anyone thinking along these lines? Thinking, thinking? And the trees could get environmental bonuses for carbon use!
            https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/08/the-achocalypse-what-s-at-stake-in-the-global-chocolate-crisis.html

            • SaveNZ 4.1.1.1.2.2

              That is a great idea greywarshark – would be good to see the government have funds so that when multinationals or who ever bails out of a manufacturer here, they can be bought by government so that people are not losing jobs like Cadbury and they have time to keep the business running until maybe the right person wants to buy it back.

              Also with regards to as soon as business become successful they are sold, part of that is also pressure from banks. A friend went to get some money for a business startup and the banks was like ‘when are you planning to sell it’ – there is no concept here, of keeping businesses in NZ and growing them to actually stay here and provide well paid jobs and contribute to GDP you have to get offshore money.

              We actually are a lot more successful at business in NZ than it looks, because people may start great businesses here or have leading ideas, but then eventually sell the business and so it seems like we are not successful in that area but actually there are Kiwi start up businesses that are successful throughout the world.

              Xero for example is one of the larger SAS companies operating in the world.

              If business do stay here, often they put in “international’ figures to run them but it does not always work out. Aka Theo Spierings had the first big loss in Fonterra’s history. What works overseas (aka supplementary feed, intensive farming, bad offshore partnerships) may not make it successful in NZ and actually start destroying value.

              • greywarshark

                savenz
                Yes good, rein in my bouts of negativity. Re Theo Spierings I seem to remember that when he was appointed there were mutterings about choosing someone who specialised in the commodities market, and that would be the focus. That applied either to him or the one before.

                Fonterra should be trialling something all the time, putting aside an allowance for innovative products to diversify with and could be made here They would not have to be a total success but sharp eyes and brains could be suggesting things, and preparing business plans and trialling them.

                • SaveNZ

                  @ Greywarshark, Was talking to someone who used to be pretty high up in Fonterra, but they are disgusted because the research fund already exists and Fonterra do have millions gathered each year from Farmers for research and projects, but it has become a fat cat exercise when they money is not spent wisely and those in charge of it, are not interested in actually changing anything or innovating. Even the former truck drivers are complaining about screw ups like some some glitch in where the pumps are located. Basically Fonterra management has got rid of a lot of the smarter employees and managers, and those left don’t seem to interested in running NZ in a practical innovative way.

        • Antoine 4.1.1.2

          Like Collins and Oravida

          • Antoine 4.1.1.2.1

            (Sorry, that was low)

            But really Ad, I’m sure companies are working with MFAT and NZTE just like they usually do. This stuff doesn’t stop just because the Government changes. Or do you know something I don’t?

            A.

            • Ad 4.1.1.2.1.1

              And I would welcome evidence of that.
              So far, as I noted above, it’s either narrowly sectoral as per dairy and transport, or it’s scattergun as per the Provincial Growth Fund.

              Business needs to figure out what this kind of government and this kind of Prime Minister can actually do for them.

              • Dukeofurl

                You mean like in the good old days when the Business Round table would call the ( national party) politicians into its offices and they would be given daft legislation ( written by top law firms) and would be backed up with a media strategy to have commissioned background pieces in major newspapers . They even went as far as adding ‘top up payments’ to those writers allready on the media payroll.

              • Antoine

                I’ve just realised what you are saying, Ad. You think businesses should take advantage of the PM’s image to try to sell more stuff overseas. Is that it?

                A.

                • Antoine

                  Matthew Hooton was saying the same thing earlier in the week.
                  “The programme uses Ardern’s celebrity as the world’s first Prime Minister to take maternity leave to promote New Zealand through popular talk shows. Those selling New Zealand beef, milk power, wine or holidays gain far more value from Ardern appearing on The Late Show than her holding a bilateral with Turkey or even meeting Donald Trump’s trade officials.”

        • greywarshark 4.1.1.3

          The fact that business find it hard to accept the reality and correctness of the change of government is an indication of how unable they are to understand the laws of the land when they don’t seem to work in their particular favour.
          This shows that they are not fit to take the crown of being the best entity to run the country which they are attempting to take from government. Leave the crown where it is! And the crown should be trying to regain what it can from the debacle.

          Business can’t rise to challenges, they want a level playing field where they do not have to strain against the gravity of our situation. They want a multi laned motorway to where the money piles are, with subservient paupers waiting at the side of the road, with their own work tools and ready to be picked so they can work all day. I understand that now-dead relatives who came early to NZ used to walk 13 miles a day to work in mines on the Isle of Man. Now their not-so-great grandchildren are prepared to accommodate the same sort of worker opportunity.

          We are suckers in this country, not demanding decent conditions, being made subservient to hand-held controllers of our lives, accepting it all without the spirit and the wariness to question and look where it will lead. Today is everything, style rules, change also, except it is not the change that will benefit all people, rather the opposite. Accepting and brainwashed with messages and content from popular media that fills our minds, responsive to the message that money is everything, lacking ideals and concern for others wellbeing, not having a questing and searching intelligence, we of course get the business leaders made of the same cloth.

    • Cinny 4.2

      That was an interesting read. I didn’t know that the PM who quit (key) paid thousands of $ to appear on The Late Show. How embarrassing.

      “If you don’t think Ardern’s got it all over Clark and Key, just look at The Late Show. Key had to pay consultants thousands to get him on that show. Ardern paid no one. The Late Show called her.”

    • shadrach 4.3

      Hi Ad

      I think you make the mistake of treating ‘business’ as a unified organism – it isn’t. There are plenty of businesses that are thriving today, just as they have done under successive governments. We show leadership by adapting to changing government policy, both good and bad, because we recognise that living in a market economy and a democratic political structure requires us to do that to survive.

      As to Jacinda, most business people I network with are largely ambivalent to her at this stage. Most of us have have concerns over some policy, but that applied to the last National government as well. But I do hope the reason people get behind her is far more meaningful than that she is ‘exceedingly popular and televisual’.

      • Ad 4.3.1

        So far business are unified in their pessimism of the economy.

        You will of course be aware that some parts of the economy are far more closely tied to the government than others – for example, transport, fibreoptics, water, arts including film, housing, all the social sectors including education, health. And the government is already neck deep in them.

        But – as I signified mentioning MFAT and NZTA – it is the exporting businesses that are taking too long to get their head around this government. With this kind of international profile for this kind of Prime Minister, they need to figure the PM out as a major market opportunity.

        “I do hope the reason business get behind her is far more meaningful than that she is ‘exceedingly popular and televisual’.” – FIFY

        • SaveNZ 4.3.1.1

          Business confidence surveys are meaningless, even the reserve bank does not use them as they know it’s not an indicator.

        • shadrach 4.3.1.2

          “So far business are unified in their pessimism of the economy. ”
          Business is not ‘unified’ in that view. The majority of businesses who have responded to selective survey’s may have that view, but that does not reflect ‘all business’.

          “But – as I signified mentioning MFAT and NZTA – it is the exporting businesses that are taking too long to get their head around this government.”
          I don’t see any evidence of that. There is some disquiet from certain business sectors about government policy, but that is not the same as taking “too long to get their head around this government.” Business adapts to changing governments, as they should. I would also suggest that the government needs to work on improving it’s own signalling. Business thrives on consistent and well thought out policy. Cracks in coalition attitudes to policy are not helpful to that stability.

    • Cinny 5.1

      Hey Antoine, ‘confidence’ surveys seem to be all over the place these days.

      Re consumers…. spending is usually down during the winter months.

    • cleangreen 5.2

      Disability/employment issues are taken more seriously in Canada than NZ sadly with using affected unemployed groups in a real show of “inclusion” when a broad range of work disability partners came together to develop a vision and strategy for the future.

      We are slipping behind again here, so wake up Labour!!!!.

      https://injuredworkersonline.org/disability-and-work-in-canada-2018-moving-forward/

      Quote;

      Disability and Work in Canada 2018 – moving forward
      September 21, 2018

      Disability and Work in Canada 2018 will be held in Ottawa on December 4 and 5, 2018. Participants at DWC2018, A Partnering Strategy for Moving Forward, will review a proposed national strategy to improve the level of employment of persons with disabilities. This draft strategy has been elaborated following the November 2017 Conference, when a broad range of work disability partners came together to develop a vision and strategy for the future.

    • Ad 5.3

      It’s a good mood IMHO if consumers concentrate on getting their mortgages down and cutting up their credit cards, and going to the mall less.

    • Bearded Git 5.4

      GDP growing at annual rate of 4% last quarter….Moody’s confirms AAA rating for NZ under Jacinda…oh yes it’s all doom and gloom.

    • Doogs 5.5

      Well Antoine that is really interesting. The fact that ‘consumer confidence is down’ appears in a “business” article in the grandmere of journalism says absolutely zilch. Both of these ethereal and purely perceptual concepts are nothing more than what people think, and we don’t have to stretch very far to understand that those little bubbles bear no relation to the financial and consumer facts.

      Business (lack of) confidence is at least a partly co-ordinated and orchestrated campaign to denigrate this government and its people-oriented approach to trade, employment, housing, pay, etc, etc. Is it any wonder that the sheeple of the consumer society will ‘baa’ in chorus.

  5. North 6

    It never ceases to amaze that this ‘business confidence’ nonsense has any traction at all. In the round it’s a device for the stroking of the righty-rich by the righty-rich……the Hosking-Hand.

    • tc 6.1

      They’ve been tools of the wealth transfer caper awhile now spraying the people from the msm outlets.

      • greywarshark 6.1.2

        There is a school-of-fish metaphor for business and particularly the financials’ behaviour in the stock exchanges of the world. Business must understand the market and what trends are showing. They are competing all the time and don’t have time to think about being people and the planet etc. They have to watch each other and keep up, the giants may only be on top for one or two years then be eclipsed and be grateful to be bought out in the next two years – remember some competition is good, but too much can kill ya.

        We are just collateral damage.

          • greywarshark 6.1.2.1.1

            Oh well still more school of fish turns and flights.

            Of course I am behind, everything is to be done by microchips.

            In the year 2525…
            Visage

            Original Zager and Evans
            (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7VqsONNvIs
            The overriding theme, of a world doomed by its passive acquiescence to and overdependence on its own overdone technologies, struck a resonant chord in millions of people around the world in the late 1960s.[5]
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Year_2525
            This was their only hit. But so good they couldn’t top it.
            People were noticing truths in the 1960’s, then what?

            Play it yourself – positive out of negative!
            (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNlyZXJSiA

            • Incognito 6.1.2.1.1.1

              Oh, I think we all are behind but don’t realise how far behind we are. I’ve been thinking about doing a post on this.

              The Government is currently undertaking a cross-government algorithm review but with the role of CTO in tatters and Clare Curran being demoted I suspect this is on the slow-burner. When the stocktake is done it will already be behind the eight ball.

              • greywarshark

                Incognito
                I keep finding that people are losing services and made to rely on their cellphone information which is a couple of removes from speaking face to face. Technology is a good servant, but I don’t want it being ‘sold’ to me as a good master. Which is being done already without me being asked my wishes.

                Young people are being left out of their social group unless they check on Facebook for instance. Predictive help is useful but it is getting that it is an opt out situation instead of opt in. We need to be decision makers before that option too is removed. It is a similar situation to that when computers were first getting established. Whatever came out of the computer was right and true, whether you looked someone in the eye and advised it was not. People had their identities denied and were cut out of society because the computer had removed their name.

    • Morrissey 6.2

      The billionaire class is not fit to rule….

    • Ngungukai 6.3

      What Hosking’s says is actually fact and reflects the mood of the Nation ?

  6. Morrissey 7

    The shooting down of peaceful protestors en masse continues,
    and we will continue to publicize it in spite of Israeli censors pressuring the media.

    On April 22, 2018, the spineless and corrupt “administrators” of YouTube deleted this video from its website.

    In memory of the dead, and to avert more Israeli killings, it has been reposted.

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2018/09/22/five-months-ago-in-memoriam/

  7. AsleepWhileWalking 8

    Colin Craig is more nasty than weird apparently

    https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/09/outspoken/

    Following her resignation, MacGregor had filed an invoice for $47,000 for work she’d done during the election campaign, from which she expected Craig to deduct two $10,000 advances, and a loan of $18,990. The interest rate on the loan was zero for the first six months, then 4 per cent for the next next months.

    After she lodged the sexual harassment claim, Craig increased the interest rate to 29 per cent.

    In the settlement agreement, MacGregor withdrew her claim, and over the next two days the pair’s lawyers exchanged letters which saw MacGregor paid $16,000 and have the loan wiped. At the time, it was all covered by confidentiality, meaning that should have been the end of it.

    But as we all now know, it wasn’t.

    Colin Craig’s first breach of the gagging order which both parties had agreed upon, came in that now notorious interview in a sauna, with TV3’s David Farrier.

    Craig then went on to breach the agreement further, repeatedly, in a series of media conferences and interviews.

    Rachel MacGregor sat back and watched in horror.

    And it still wasn’t over.

    Because then came court cases – two of them, both defamation trials – after some details of MacGregor’s time working for Craig were published by a blogger.

    She was merely a witness, roped in. But she needed legal advice, of course. And now her four-year navigation of the legal system has left her with a lawyers’ bill of $80,000 – a bill which is about to be multiplied many times, because yet again, Rachel MacGregor finds herself in court: this time being sued by Colin Craig for defamation, and she responding with a counterclaim, also of defamation.

    MacGregor feels she has no choice but to defend herself. But she can’t afford it.

    “I don’t have any assets”, she says. “I am just absolutely nowhere near as wealthy as Colin Craig. There’s no way I could even dream of paying for this case myself. I guess it’s sort of chalk and cheese, if you like, my financial position, and my opponent’s.”

    • Dukeofurl 8.1

      Why was she ‘talking about’ the inside information from her job with Conservatives onto her ‘friend Jordan Williams’ and from him onto Whaleoil for publication on his blog ?

      I get she has been used by Jordan Williams but what on earth made her take up a media minder role for a party leader during an election campaign. She clearly had zero
      previous experience in politics

      And then the ‘ cant afford it ‘ Rachel then looks at the legal circus and decides she wants to jump in the ring
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/93899563/rachel-macgregor-countersues-colin-craig-for-defamation

      • veutoviper 8.1.1

        “… what on earth made her take up a media minder role for a party leader during an election campaign. She clearly had zero previous experience in politics”

        Really? Do you ever check anything before making such statements judging people?

        Rachel has a Bachelor of Communication (BCS) – Mass Comm, PR, Branding, TV, Radio, Web Dev, Advertising, Creative – from Auckland University of Technology.

        Before becoming Press Secretary for the Conservative Party in August 2011, she also worked for TVNZ for almost six years as follows according to her Linked In profile:

        TVNZ – 5 years 8 months

        Line Up Producer, Good Morning. TVNZ January 2010 – July 2010 = 7 months

        News and Current Affairs Producer TVNZ October 2005 – 2010 = 5 years

        Producer / Reporter, Breakfast TVNZ 2005 – 2009 = 4 years

        Assignments and Foreign Co-ordinator TVNZ December 2004 – July 2005 = 8 months

        I would have thought that her work experience with TVNZ, especially the five years as a News and Current Affairs Producer, would have given her some, maybe even considerable experience in relation to politics – as opposed to your judgement that she had zero experience.

        • Dukeofurl 8.1.1.1

          Just taking ‘padded profiles’ from linkedin doesnt give much useful information.
          Most of the details from thats linkedin overlap, so it can be broken down to one line :
          News and Current Affairs Producer TVNZ October 2005 – 2010 = 5 years

          Where is the connection with politics you talk about ?You do realise TVNZ has a whole crew of on air political journalists, McGregor wasnt one of them.

          oh yes but she did these
          http://tvnz.co.nz/content/2216530/2591759.html
          She travels to Scotland for a promo piece
          ‘Rachel MacGregor travelled to Edinburgh and uncovered some normally hidden Scottish secrets. Breakfast would like to thank ‘Visit Scotland’ for their help with making this story.

          or this one
          ‘Hollie Smith
          Reporter Rachel Macgregor spoke to singer Hollie Smith, famous for her extraordinary vocals on Don McGlashan’s Bathe in the River.’

          ‘NZ Music Awards
          Reporter Rachel Macgregor joined Breakfast to talk about the New Zealand Music Awards. For the winners click HERE
          FIFA under 17 Woman’s World Cup
          Rachel MacGregor at North Harbour Stadium ahead of the opening night of the FIFA under 17 Woman’s World Cup.
          Comparing kits
          Reporter Rachel MacGregor spoke to War Veteran Theo Thomas and Lt Jeremy Seed who is currently serving in the New Zealand Army. The pair compared their kits, and looked at the army equipment of the past and present.
          Chic Entertaining
          Reporter Rachel MacGregor got a lesson in chic entertaining from the food editor of Dish magazine, Claire Aldous.
          http://tvnz.co.nz/content/1756437/2591759.html

          Im sure she was very capable for the ‘soft news’ type storys that can be found on TVNZ web site, that I have shown above, and thats not a selection just the google items in order ( No need to go back over the 5 yrs or so)

          So I stick by my comment she has zero experience in the political journalism field. Your statements clearly havent been checked for factual basis

          For goodness sake the woman was clearly way out of her depth . Her current job doing communications with the Property Council seems a far better fit and I wish her well.

          • veutoviper 8.1.1.1.1

            “Where is the connection with politics you talk about ?You do realise TVNZ has a whole crew of on air political journalists, McGregor wasnt one of them.”

            Of course she was not one of the “whole crew of on air political journalists”. She was a “News and Current Affairs Producer” – not an on air Presenter.

            Producers usually work behind the scenes, not on camera, or on air in the case of radio. Some Producers occasionally do on camera items as MacGregor obviously did from time to time from the list you gave above.

            Similarly, for example, Alex Perrottet, Producer of Morning Report on RNZ National is currently fronting – ie presenting on air – Checkpoint on RNZ National between John Campbell’s departure a week ago and Lisa Owen taking over in a few weeks’ time.

            You also say “So I stick by my comment she has zero experience in the political journalism field.” … “For goodness sake the woman was clearly way out of her depth.”

            So she had five years experience as a “News and Current Affairs Producer” – on top of her across the board Communications training at and her BComms qualification from AUT.

            Since when were “Politics’ not part of “News and Current Affairs”?

            Of course, she had exposure to and experience in political journalism as part of her role as a News and Current Affairs Producer for over five years. Presumably the Conservative Party thought so too as they (or rather CC) hired her as their Press Secretary.

            And where is your factual proof of your statement that “For goodness sake the woman was clearly out of her depth” ?

            Your statement is worded quite clearly as a judgment not an opinion. What are your qualifications to make that judgment?

            • Dukeofurl 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Where are the political stories stories you talk about. Please don’t make claims without checking their validity. Like I said seems to a capable general news and soft stories producer.
              I’ll make all the judgements I like based on real information, however I won’t be judging her on what she wears from day to day like you did for Bennett.

    • Tricledrown 8.2

      Colon Craig should be prosecuted for stalking and victimisation.
      Another Narcissist who claims to be a god fearing Christian.

  8. cleangreen 9

    it’s official now – Chinese Government are found by SIS to be bugging our officials and messing with our Country now as an aggressor.

    read this.

    view-source:https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/09/23/so-our-largest-trading-partner-burgled-an-academic-to-intimidate-her-in-our-own-country-are-we-allowed-to-discuss-chinas-influence-over-us-yet/

    Quote;
    “the Security Intelligence Service have carried out a search for listening devices at the University of Canterbury office of the professor revealed to be a possible target of Chinese espionage.”

    • adam 9.1

      Well this sort of thing will happen when the national party had Chinese spies sitting at the cabinet table.

      • Incognito 9.1.1

        That’s an utterly rubbish comment.

      • veutoviper 9.1.2

        Adam, Jian Yang was never in Cabinet or part of the Executive.

        He was not a Minister, an Associate Minister or a Parliamentary Under Secretary. He was a Parliamentary Private Secretary (on Ethnic Affairs) for 10 months in 2017 which is only a fancy name for an adviser to a Minister on a particular subject but holds no extra salary or any other form of recognition under section 2.52 of the NZ Cabinet Manual*.

        https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/parliamentary-private-secretaries-appointed-2

        https://dpmc.govt.nz/our-business-units/cabinet-office/supporting-work-cabinet/cabinet-manual/2-ministers-crown-5

        * The Wikipedia entry on PPS is incorrect in respect of PPS under the NZ system. While they are part of the executive in the UK and paid etc, they are not in NZ.

        EDIT – I now see that Incognito has also raised the above in their first point.

        • adam 9.1.2.1

          So he saw no cabinet papers, and did he no have access? Is that what you’re saying veutoviper?

          • veutoviper 9.1.2.1.1

            No Adam. That is not what I said.

            You said ” Well this sort of thing will happen when the national party had Chinese spies sitting at the cabinet table.”

            You then said “So Jian Yang rings no bells then.” implying that it was Jian Yang that you were referring to as “sitting at the cabinet table”.

            I said that Jian Yang was never a member of Cabinet and therefore would not be “sitting at the cabinet table” as you said.

            I did not say that he saw no Cabinet papers; nor did I say that he had no access to Cabinet papers. I don’t know whether he did or did not – and nor do you.

            • adam 9.1.2.1.1.1

              So your response was because I said cabinet table instead of caucus – if I’d said cacus what would you have said?

              But getting back to the issue, begs the questions of why were the 5 eyes upset at the national government? Why did Canada throw a wobbly over issues of security and threaten NZ? From that I’m have an educated guess that Jian Yang had some access, don’t you think – and I agree I can’t 100% know – but the fact our allies got very upset says somthing.

              Funny how this been swept under the carpet in NZ. It’s like people are too frightened to even talk about it.

  9. Gabby 10

    So they found listening devices did they cleany?

  10. joe90 11

    The Goser whanau Christmas is gonna be a blast.

    It might seem like family dysfunction or a very bad case of sibling rivalry.

    Six of nine brothers and sisters of Representative Paul Gosar, Republican of Arizona, publicly endorsed his Democratic opponent in the midterm elections in videos on Friday, in what one of them said was nothing short of a moral imperative.

    The siblings were alarmed at what they saw as the congressman’s increasingly extremist views on immigration, health care and white supremacists, one of them, David Gosar, said on Saturday.

    “I’m just hoping either in this election cycle or next, the people get the idea that he’s just not fit for that office and he needs to be removed,” he said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/22/us/politics/paul-gosar-arizona-family-siblings.html?partner=bloomberg

    • joe90 11.1

      He’s not taking it well.

      My siblings who chose to film ads against me are all liberal Democrats who hate President Trump. These disgruntled Hillary suppporters are related by blood to me but like leftists everywhere, they put political ideology before family. Stalin would be proud. #Az04 #MAGA2018— Paul Gosar (@DrPaulGosar) September 22, 2018

    • Andre 11.2

      They gotta get through Thanksgiving first.

  11. Jenny 12

    From the Ukraine to Syria around the world fascism is again on the march.

    Michael Moore’s new movie documents the rise of Donald Trump and compares the US to 1930s Germany and the rise of fascism.

    Moore says his new movie “is not about Trump, it is about us”.

    As the sex scandals and the illegal pay offs to cover them up, and the FBI Russian investigation into Russian links to Donald Trump’s election campaign rumble on to their inevitable nadir. Despite all the twitterings from the Liberal Left in the US about impeaching Donald Trump on the strength of all this, or at least turning his administration into a Lame Duck by winning a Democratic Majority in the mid-terms.

    Despite all the legalisms and resort to constitutionality by his opponents, Donald Trump knows that he is unstoppable.

    At any legalistic constraints or moves against his administration, by the Democrats, President Trump can call out his millions of supporters. Hell, they will probably react violently in that event, even if he doesn’t call them out.
    The targets of Trump’s supporters, Black Lives Matter, Immigrants, Muslims, will fight back to defend themselves.

    The resulting unrest will be all the excuse Trump will need to call a state of emergency and suspend the constitution.

    In his latest movie Michael Moore says, no matter what he does, or what is thrown at him, Trump has made himself “unimpeachable”.

    The reaction from the Right to Moore’s movie is, “this is war”. Pretty much making Moore’s point for him.

    Michael Moore turns his mind to Trump
    Jake Coyle – NZ Herald, September 11, 2018

    …..while Moore finds much to celebrate in the film — the Women’s March, the West Virginia teachers union strike, New York congressional candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — he’s plagued by despair. He feels America is hanging tenuously by a thread, and that Trump is one national emergency — real or artificial — away from taking authoritarian control. In scenes that what will surely only enflame his critics, Moore thoroughly considers comparisons of Trump to Hitler, including one in which he plays audio of Trump at a rally over black-and-white video of a Hitler speech….

    ……The Drudge Report blared in response to Moore’s Hitler comparisons for Trump: “This is war.”

    [pretty much confirming Moore’s analysis]

    • Ad 12.1

      On the other hand ….

      – So far all the US and EU constitutional checks and balances are working as intended. They will certainly be stretched when Muller hands his charges down. But they are working just fine so far with everyone heading to jail that should be.

      – Both Senate and Congress are ready to limit the Republican President. The Democrats will take Congress in the November mid-terms, and will also slim down the Republican Senate majority enough so that it too is ready to be taken in the next main election.

      – The U.S. mainstream media are also doing their job being extremely noisy about the US President – as the should. A few like him, most don’t. As a result, public opinion polls show him to be very unlikely to get a second term even if he stands.

      – The classic measure showing Moore is wrong: in any state heading to Fascism, Moore would have been agains the wall and shot long ago.

      – The U.S. economy is doing just fine.

      – For those who are not benefitting from this massive economic upswing, the grassroots Democratic revival is in full swing.

      – The truly nut-job rulers in the E.U. are getting plenty of sanctions thrown at them.

      We don’t all have to go full Susan Sarandon and praise Trump for reviving the Democrats. But it’s not untrue.

      The political world is in an extended sweet spot; fewest wars, most literacy and wealth uplift for the poor, and least diplomatic grief, in my lifetime. Yes our global institutions are weak and old. No, we are not headed for the Man In The High Castle.

      • Dukeofurl 12.1.1

        You still have the mistaken belief the economic upswing didnt start back in 2014 or so during Obamas time and carried on right through to today.
        The Trump meme was that all the ‘HUGE” economic numbers before Trump were fake, but suddenly after he was elected werent fake anymore

      • Jenny 12.1.2

        …..– So far all the US and EU constitutional checks and balances are working as intended. They will certainly be stretched when Muller hands his charges down. But they are working just fine so far with everyone heading to jail that should be.

        – Both Senate and Congress are ready to limit the Republican President. The Democrats will take Congress in the November mid-terms, and will also slim down the Republican Senate majority enough so that it too is ready to be taken in the next main election.

        – The U.S. mainstream media are also doing their job being extremely noisy about the US President – as the should. A few like him, most don’t. As a result, public opinion polls show him to be very unlikely to get a second term even if he stands….

        Ad

        Famous last words Ad,

        Here are some more famous last words for you Ad

        Michael Moore: Are We Going to Be Like the “Good Germans” Who Let Hitler Rise to Power?

        @11.50 minutes

        ….and the majority of Germans voted, Yes.

        And I show that, the ballot, in the movie. And they voted Yes for this. And the front page editorial in the Jewish Weekly, of Frankfurt, Germany said OK everybody, fellow Jews, calm down, it’s OK. Yes he’s crazy. Yes his people are thugs. But you know it’s not gonna be as bad as a lot of you are thinking.

        C’mon we’re Germans. This is a democracy. We are not going to be rounded up and put into ghettos, because we have a constitution……

      • Jenny 12.1.3

        …. No, we are not headed for the Man In The High Castle.

        Ad

        Of course not. That’s ridiculous. Ad if you think that Moore is suggesting that fascism will come again with swastikas, that is not what he is saying at all.

        From the Democracy Now interview with Michael Moore

        @7:45 minutes

        ….the fascism of the 21st Century will not come with concentration camps and swastikas. It will come with a smiley face and a TV show….

        • adam 12.1.3.1

          I agree Jenny,

          but don’t forget Michael Moore is ultimately trying to get bums on seats at the picture theatre. So he is being a bit of a showman.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.4

        But they are working just fine so far with everyone heading to jail that should be.

        Neither GWB nor Tony Blair and their entire administrations are in jail for their invasion of Iraq.

        Of course, letting rich people off of war crimes is probably intended.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      From the Ukraine to Syria around the world fascism is again on the march.

      It’s how capitalism always marches. That hasn’t changed any in the last 5000 years.

  12. greywarshark 13

    For those who haven’t caught up with tax report latest and Max Rashbrooke’s report and comment.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366969/tax-report-highlights-nz-s-inequality-issues

    John Shewan – conservative views for comparison.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018663426/john-shewan-system-s-not-broken-but-it-can-be-improved

    Max R.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018663679/max-rashbrooke-government-for-the-public-good

    Max Rashbrooke is a journalist, author and academic based in Wellington. His first book in 2013, Inequality: A New Zealand Crisis, was followed by The Inequality Debate (2014) and Wealth and New Zealand (2015).

    He’s just released Government for the Public Good: The Surprising Science of Large-Scale Collective Action which presents a rethink of the role and potential of government.

    Rashbrooke is a research associate of the Institute for Governance and Policy Studies at Victoria University of Wellington. He has twice been the recipient of the Bruce Jesson Senior Journalism Award, and was a 2015 Winston Churchill Fellow.

  13. greywarshark 14

    A bit of Slavoj Zizek the unique Slovenian philosopher and political commentator.
    The first is after he had a small stroke. His brain is still as sharp as ever and he likes jokes. He plays one on himself, presenting in the now familiar cooking-show style, as the chief Chef. Afterwards he is interviewed by Alex Miller from Vice.

  14. cleangreen 15

    Call me paraniod if you will, but consider this;

    I am seriously uneasy about the following here;

    We now have two German ancestors of Germany, Robert Mueller and his deputy Rod Rosenstein that now are the two top senior directors of the US Department of Justice now heading an investigation of President Trump!!!!

    So why do we have Germans in US running another “Neuremberg trial” deep state process on President Donald Trump??????

    I say it is a bit to close for comfort.

    ttps://www.ancestry.com.au/name-origin?surname=mueller&geo_a=t&geo_s=us&geo_t=au&geo_v=2.0.0&o_iid=41019&o_lid=41019&o_sch=Web+Property
    Mueller Family History
    https://www.ancestry.com.au/name-origin?surname=mueller&geo_a=t&geo_s=us&geo_t=au&geo_v=2.0.0&o_iid=41019&o_lid=41019&o_sch=Web+Property
    Mueller Family History

    https://www.ancestry.com.au/name-origin?surname=mueller&geo_a=t&geo_s=us&geo_t=au&geo_v=2.0.0&o_iid=41019&o_lid=41019&o_sch=Web+Property
    Mueller Family History
    Mueller Name Meaning
    German (Müller) occupational name for a miller, Middle High German müller, German Müller. In Germany Müller, Mueller is the most frequent of all surnames; in the U.S. it is often changed to Miller.
    Source: Dictionary of American Family Names ©2013, Oxford University Press

    Similar surnames: Meller, Moeller, Muellner, Miller, Muller, Geller, Mulder, Zeller

    http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Rosenstein

    Deputy General director of DoJ – Rosenstein is an old German name.

    Last name: Rosenstein
    SDB Popularity ranking: 11539
    This is a very old German surname, indeed one of the very first on record. It is what is known as “ornamental” in that whilst it translates literally as one who resided by an area (feld) of roses (rose), this may not have been so in fact. Early German surnames of the 13th century were often based upon mythical situations, in other words, if one was to have a surname, why not a nice one! There are a wide range of surnames which follow this pattern such as Rosegren (Rose branch), Rosengart (Rose garden) being just two examples of the genre. When the name is recorded in its simplest base form as “Rose”, this can imply either a person with red hair or a ruddy complexion, or it can be topographical for one who did actually grow roses or lived in a rose growing area. What is certain is that the name in its localised form is found in every European country, and the recordings range from Roz or Roze in France to Rosetti in Italy, and Ruzek in Czechoslovakia,

    .

  15. veutoviper 16

    Yesterday on OM, ankerrawshark commented at 6 * on Andrew McKenzie’s appearance as CEO of Housing NZ on the Nation and wondered why he had not been sacked. I hazarded a possible reason in reply at 6.2.

    * https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22-09-2018/#comment-1527659

    Earlier this morning I visited Public Address and thought I would post the following link to an excellent post by Russell Brown on the subject of Housing NZ and the meth situation.

    https://publicaddress.net/hardnews/a-painful-reflection/

    Brown’s post is far more detailed and informative than anything I have seen in mainstream media and IMO really puts things into perspective. I really recommend this as a worthwhile read.

  16. Ankerrawshark 17

    Many thanks Vertongen, will read with interest

    • veutoviper 17.1

      Pleased you saw it as I meant to send a message to your post yesterday to let you know about it.

      I like the new name you gave me – now which one did you mean me to be?

      A Belgian Tottenham Hotspurs footballer. a dentist, a cyclist, or a Senior Professional Clinician – School of Psychology? I refuse to be a Palmerston North real estate agent. LOL.

      https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Vertongen&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enNZ499&oq=Vertongen&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

      • Ankerrawshark 17.1.1

        Sorry veutoviper re the name. Predictive text again. Sometimes catch it in time to edit, but think I posted and ran.

        The article about NZ Housing and P labs is excellent. I realize I had a knee jerk reaction to McKenzie on the Nation…….. it’s been a total shambles and a disgrace and was obviously political. One thing I can say is the fact that tywford backs McKenzie did make me pause, which is a sign that I trust labour’s judgment. The comment at the end of the article re the role of the media in perpetuating the meth contamination hysteria is a great point. And thumbs up to the journalists who challenged it

        • veutoviper 17.1.1.1

          No apologies etc needed – I enjoyed it because I then found some interesting reading that I would not otherwise have come across. So thank you.

          Russell Brown has done some excellent work in the drugs area and is getting more and more into those areas. He has also done some good stuff on autism and Aspergers as he has two sons on the spectrum. Well worth reading. Most is on the Pubic Address blog.

  17. Draco T Bastard 19

    From Capitalism vs. Freedom: The toll-road to serfdom:

    This history is extensive, and readers interested in learning more of this absorbing global history should consult the sources cited here and in the notes. But a short survey should suffice to show that the core capitalist countries of Europe and the US have been archenemies of democracy, and of-freedom, except for the hegemonic freedom of elite large-scale property owners. Friedman’s thesis, that political freedom Will be advanced by his conceived freedom of the marketplace, deserves a lot less respect and remembrance than the army of the dead left behind by the greed of the powers of the world. An army extending, in the eye of the student of history, to the horizon in all directions.

    This is, of course, commenting on the neo-colonialism of the West that has happened over the last few decades that has caused so much strife and poverty throughout the world and all to cater to the greed of the rich.

    • cleangreen 19.1

      Perfectly said Draco.

      Look at this;

      view-source:https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/09/23/john-pilger-hold-the-front-page-the-reporters-are-missing/

      John Pilger: ‘Hold the front page. The reporters are missing’
      By Dr David Robie / September 23, 2018

      “Media Lens has shattered a silence about corporate journalism. Like Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman in Manufacturing Consent, they represent a Fifth Estate that deconstructs and demystifies the media’s power.”

      Quote; https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745338118/propaganda-blitz/

      “When he was US commander in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus declared what he called “a war of perception… conducted continuously using the news media”. What really mattered was not the facts but the way the story played in the United States. The undeclared enemy was, as always, an informed and critical public at home.

      Nothing has changed. In the 1970s, I met Leni Riefenstahl, Hitler’s film-maker, whose propaganda mesmerised the German public.

      She told me the “messages” of her films were dependent not on “orders from above”, but on the “submissive void” of an uninformed public.

      “Did that include the liberal, educated bourgeoisie?” I asked.

      “Everyone,” she said. “Propaganda always wins, if you allow it.”

    • RedLogix 19.2

      strife and poverty throughout the world and all to cater to the greed of the rich.

      Given there is less poverty and strife in the world now than any prior point in history; your assertion is unsupportable.

      • greywarshark 19.2.1

        I think DTB’s point is not averaging everything out or choosing some examples that indicate satisfactory standards and ignoring the rest. It is shocking that we have advanced societies with all the knowledge and means to do better but those in power proceed to drain the world of its resources and the lack of opportunity for vast numbers to live satisfying lives while the elite add to their excess holdings.

        • RedLogix 19.2.1.1

          and the lack of opportunity for vast numbers to live satisfying lives while the elite add to their excess holdings.

          Absolutely agree; but what you’re describing is not poverty, it’s another much more serious, subtle problem called inequality. Hell I’ve been banging on about it pretty much since I first got here the first week The Standard was launched. The one thing I’m absolutely certain of is that the solution for it involves nothing like neo-Marxism.

          We keep making the mistake of thinking that inequality is merely an extension of the poverty problem, and persist in framing potential solutions in purely economic terms. Demonstrably this doesn’t work.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.2.1.1.1

            Absolutely agree; but what you’re describing is not poverty, it’s another much more serious, subtle problem called inequality.

            Whatever makes you think that there’s a difference?

            An unequal society is a society that is in poverty and has poverty that’s likely to be increasing – as we see when we look at NZ over the last three decades.

            The one thing I’m absolutely certain of is that the solution for it involves nothing like neo-Marxism.

            And the one thing that history tells us is that the solution includes neither capitalism nor rich people.

            We keep making the mistake of thinking that inequality is merely an extension of the poverty problem

            It’s a structural problem that is endemic to capitalism, i.e, your ownership of rentals exacerbates it.

            As I say, the problem is ownership. The problem is rich people.

            • RedLogix 19.2.1.1.1.1

              Your neo-Marxism has been nothing but a catastrophic, humiliation wherever it has been tried. That’s what history tells us.

              • Draco T Bastard

                No it hasn’t as it’s never been tried. Examples throughout history do show that a caring/sharing society does better than capitalism and that capitalism always destroys the society that it arises in.

          • greywarshark 19.2.1.1.2

            Red Logix people who are experiencing poverty are not comforted by it being regarded as inequality – by whatever name if they are considerably lower resourced from wherever their source is, they experience a lesser life. And arguing about nomenclature just brings expressions of puzzlement and annoyance. ‘What are you talking about? Just gobbledegook as normal, ‘they would say.

            I think call a spade a spade and don’t waste time choosing the exact synonym that might identify it better. I agree that it is not to be framed just as “potential solutions in purely economic terms. Demonstrably this doesn’t work.” And that opens the way to examining what is needed to be done, because now that the elite have managed to mess around with our achievable economic solution to a stable economy with working people, what are people going to do to achieve a decent lifestyle? It must have reward, and satisfaction, and housing and a personal life as a human and time and resources to enjoy it. Future work, or future occupation of desire rewarded for positive input to society by society. Work as we have known it is being denied us more and more. So let’s argue about that – that’s the modern conundrum.

            Now pockets of real poverty exist, it gets harder all the time for people to climb out and ‘enjoy’ a better life. First their needs to be opportunities, then they may always have to have mentors, or encuragers helping them to find a niche in society and get skills to attain that. Such encouragers will help to counteract against early learnings,that are likely to lead to wanting instant gratification and addictions for mood uplifts. After a while of self-training there is likely to be a positive of say 80/20 of enjoyment and sustainability resulting.

            • RedLogix 19.2.1.1.2.1

              I can’t do justice to this on a smartphone keypad. 😠

              What we should be thinking about are problems caused by poverty (which is a first order problem) and those caused by inequality which have deeper sociological roots.

      • Draco T Bastard 19.2.2

        Really?

        If we go back 2000 years would we really see that same level of poverty in the world? Sure, we’d see it around the Mediterranean but would we see it as much elsewhere? Would we see it in Australia at all?

        Poverty is not the lack of money but the lack of having the means to live available and most societies throughout history shared the nations resources making sure that everyone had enough rather than letting just a few have everything while denying the majority enough.

        It is capitalism that causes poverty. Always has been, always will be.

        • greywarshark 19.2.2.1

          DTB
          Comparing states of poverty at different ages is apples and oranges. The point is that we have had 100 years of education, have learned how political and economic systems work, about the dreadful behaviour against vulnerable people in history, and there is no excuse for a people who have not set their faces against a repeat of this. The most egregious sort of poverty is where there is wide difference from the elite to the bottom, and our bottom is getting wider.

          And the interesting thing is that the observable obesity amongst so many people on lower incomes has become a sign of poverty – that they are being sold inadequate food that has had important aspects processed out of it and replaced by taste satisfying ingredients bad for health.

          In our devious, manipulative present-day society, nothing is quite what it appears to be.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.2.2.1.1

            Comparing states of poverty at different ages is apples and oranges.

            I wasn’t comparing the states of poverty – I was comparing if it existed or not.

            Poverty is not the lack of all the goods and services that we have today but if some in a society have little to nothing while others are living high on the hog.

            The most egregious sort of poverty is where there is wide difference from the elite to the bottom, and our bottom is getting wider.

            Yes and where the society is based around sharing and caring then there is no poverty.

        • RedLogix 19.2.2.2

          What you have described is inequality. We all manifestly lead far better lives than just 200 years ago. Lose the noble savage/egalitarian huntergather myth. They lived tough high risk lives, sharing poverty, disease and violence on a daily basis.

          Our modern wealth has brought unprecedented life expectancy and safety to billions; but an extreme inequality at the same time. The reason for this is much more subtle than your primitive unidimensional Marxism allows for.

          • greywarshark 19.2.2.2.1

            You are too subtle for me Red Logix. I bow before your greater, not revealed, knowledge of how inequality oppresses people into poverty when there are shining examples of people who have risen from bootboy to billionaire. I suppose it all comes back to people being responsible for making bad decisions and not trying hard enough, so their misfortunes are of their own making.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.2.2.2.2

            They lived tough high risk lives, sharing poverty, disease and violence on a daily basis.

            They didn’t have poverty because they shared and looked after each other. This is something that many today just don’t understand.

            They had to look after each other else they’d all die.

            Our modern wealth has brought unprecedented life expectancy and safety to billions; but an extreme inequality at the same time.

            Yes it has but the question is if that wealth would have come about without capitalism. After all, a large part of capitalism’s exploitation is getting people to do what they want to do to make someone else rich.

            The reason for this is much more subtle than your primitive unidimensional Marxism allows for.

            You and the other capitalists are the ones being unidimensional as you simply insist that capitalism is the end all, be all while ignoring the damage that it does.

  18. Koff 20

    U.K Labour having its annual conference over the next few days. No doubt the strategy on Brexit and whether to go for a new referendum will be an important topic, but an interesting new policy proposed so far is to tax second home owners and use the proceeds to subsidise housing for homeless kids. Think it is a doubling of council tax they propose (equivalent of our rates) and only on holiday homes or houses that are not used most of the time. Seems an idea that could be used here in NZ re any second homes that lie empty.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/sep/23/second-home-tax-labour-policy-double-council-tax-homelessness

  19. joe90 21

    Meanwhile.

    Since March 30th, 2018:- 184 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces – 20,160 wounded- 3 medics killed, 395 medics wounded – 72 lost one or more of their limbs – 5039 shot by live bullets – 752 shot in head/neck – 421 shot in chest/back – 470 shot in stomach/pelvis— اغين الزعبي (@Augiedamous) September 23, 2018

    Photos: 25 Fridays of Protest in Gaza

    https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/09/photos-25-fridays-of-protest-in-gaza/570889/

    • Muttonbird 21.1

      What a mess Britain unleashed upon the world in 1947.

      • BM 21.1.1

        You should blame the rapture movement, not Britain.

      • joe90 21.1.2

        In 1917, preceded by late 19th century Zionism precipitated by the bigotry of Christian Europe, supported by the great powers in their carve up of the Ottoman Empire, with the intention that a Jewish National Home would be founded in Palestine.

        IMO, the great mistake was made in 1948 when the UN allowed the annexation of the entirety of Palestine and the world sat on their hands as Palestinian Arabs were expelled, and during subsequent Israeli land grabs.

        • In Vino 21.1.2.1

          I agree. But we are faced with a terribly different reality. You can bet your bottom dollar that the zealots will not agree to discontinue expanding into Jerusalem, let alone restore 1967 borders as demanded by UNO…

          • joe90 21.1.2.1.1

            The zealots on both sides ain’t ever going to settle and the Israeli left and their Arab allies will continue to lose ground and because I’m as pessimistic AF, I reckon the outcomes on the cards are:

            The forever wars continue into the next century.

            A future US administration with a mandate to turn the aid tap off forces the Knesset to seek a negotiated peace.

            Financial catastrophe brought about by untenable defence spending swings Israeli public opinion toward a negotiated peace as the least worst option.

            A nuclear accident/Masada option.

            • cleangreen 21.1.2.1.1.1

              Nah, Joe,

              You are just using the old method of scare tactics Joe,

              Human instinct has shown time and time gain, that the whole world is very worried about neulear wars.

              Every time the sabres rattle around the world for a nuclear war absolutely no-one embraces a war with nuclear arms, as it is realised , no-oe espapes the cloud of nuclear fallout that would envelop the world after a nuclear war as we willl all die afterwards.

              Human instinct is a strong deterent.

  20. eco maori 22

    Kia ora There you go Wahine can do anything so long as the road blocks that’s some old men put in there way are torn down Jacinda mania.
    I bet the Auckland fuel tax would have dropped our carbon use .
    The UN well we have local laws WE need international laws the UN also put out media statements that most people around the world read’s about the greedy men pillaging te Papatuanuku for money and they don’t care what happend’s to the local people and the local environment so long as the can bleed money out of the place.
    Paul Simon last tour I enjoy his music ka pai.
    Jamie I have read about the new way to make aluminium that will lower one of our biggest prouducer’s of carbon I think it half’s the amount of carbon input in the prosess
    We could recycle more can’s and that would give us a big saving in carbon output there top up the price one gets for alloy cans to $150 a kilo .
    The new young leader’s are going to change the world for the better as we don’t have the systems way of doing thing’s ingrained in our mind’s .racieset climate change human right’s animal right’s inequality these thing;s have to change .
    Ka kite ano

  21. eco maori 23

    There is still a big difference in the way indigenous Australian’s are treated compared to other cultures in Australier .
    There is a inbuilt discrimination of the indigenous people of Australia this sort of behavior need’s to change all around the world I would starts at the schools educate the children about the plight that Australians have poured and still are pouring on indigenous Australian’s and this will help change the view of Australians into a more positive view of indigenous Australians .
    It wont be a easy task but you will be rewarded greatly when you win it was good that the corona did the correct thing and reported the truth instead of ignoring the issue.
    Link below Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/sep/21/darwin-hospital-left-aboriginal-man-to-die-alone-and-in-agony-from-surgical-injury

  22. eco maori 24

    There you go wealthy people have been using there money to distort peoples reality into beleving that the neo librails capitalist have everyone best interest at heart for century’s we know now that is just a load of crap .
    There main goals are greed they are intoxicated on money and power and they don’t give a——- what get’s damaged because of there greed for more money than anyone need’s to be happy . Ana to kai Ka kite ana P.S trump is trying to bully the whole world into giving him money link below.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45546585

  23. eco maori 25

    Deep fake video’s are a real threat to our democacy these people who are the fake it till you make it.
    neo liberals capitalist have no morels that’s why one of these people have had 6 of his sibling condemn him .
    We have to make sure that our election’s are fair and just for the prosperity of ALL.
    Link below ka kite P.S Deep fake videos is 10 x more dangerious than cambridge analytical

    https://money.cnn.com/2018/08/08/technology/deepfakes-countermeasures-facebook-twitter-youtube/index.html

  24. Eco Maori 26

    Alison keep up the good work of fighting for Wahine Equality.
    There is a big gapping hole in our justice systems and who do we thank for this shonky
    He changed the legal aid system so only people unemployed can access the the fund to fight the injustice they face.
    Aid.
    collin crag is just like shonky they think that Wahine are here to serve Men especially if they are rich.
    These men should not even show there shameful face in public. Link is Below Ka kite ano P.S my computer is down on thestanded site?????? Used my pH to get this up

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107244863/alison-mau-rachel-macgregor-case-reveals-glitch-in-our-justice-system

  25. Eco Maori 27

    trump deserves my wrap his administration has rolled back a 1 hundred years old law that protects migratory birds all birds will be affected by this fool
    Birds are the caniry in the coal mine they have more intelligents than him they are one of a few animals that can dance to a music beat tool makers and are beautiful creatures.
    All creatures should be treated like diamonds Ka kite ano link below

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/21/trump-administration-poses-new-threat-to-birds-in-allowing-incidental-killings

  26. Eco Maori 28

    Looks like I have hit the nail on the head.
    I say that the new Australian prime minister is a control freak like one we had in charge for 9 years in Atoearoa he has already started pulling strings behind the scenes.
    The sacking of Michelle Guthrie just came out of the blue the story give one the hints of why.
    I can see right through racist bigots and morrison fit like a pea in a pod with others that I have given a serve or 2 Ka kite ano link below. P.S I will say I will be serving this muppets reality up more unless he changes his tune
    YEA RIGHT

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/24/michelle-guthrie-considering-legal-options-after-being-sacked-by-abc-board

  27. Eco Maori 29

    Kia ora Newshub That’s awesome that we have a oil drilling ban yes we might lose some money but has anyone calculated what gains we will get from the renewable energy sources that we will replace carbon with.
    I don’t think so remember the Minstery of business and innovation was set up by steven joyce.
    There you go Tova he is a lose cannon trump.
    Frazer high school students got some tuff love and it looks like they needed it.
    In my day the smoker hid around the back of a shed not on the main entrance.
    That story of Carterton school sounds like a lot of composts I smell a rat enough said.
    With the person that loaded plans of how to print a gun on the net what I have to say is they used that line all the time to arrest people so that makes me sceptical why because they had no other way to incracerate him I can smell it again.
    Cosby deserves to go to jail he has hurt so many Wahine and damage the reputation of many people.
    Our the birds were out singing our Queen
    LOL she has heaps of trees for the birds to live in Ka pai Ka kite ano

  28. Eco Maori 30

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild James and Mulls it’s a Ka pai day for the multi culture sports all around Papatuanukue enough said.
    What about that marathon cheat in Rotorua & Tauranga race’s
    The boxing in Britain is a, – – – they will—–my culture then I will back off.
    Great commentary on the net ball guys.
    Ka kite ano P.S James you got that ECO got it
    East Coast v Poverty Bay it was a close game

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