Open Mike 22/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 22nd, 2018 - 233 comments
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233 comments on “Open Mike 22/09/2018 ”

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  1. James 1
    22 September 2018 at 6:59 am

    Started the day with a chuckle reading this opinion on stuff this morning about the coalition name that shan’t be said.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/107282676/the-sorry-day-the-labour-party-gave-itself-an-uppercut

    This comical situation would never happened with auntie Helen.

    • Ed 1.1
      22 September 2018 at 7:15 am

      The author of the article is Duncan Garner.
      A fool and a paid puppet.

      • Dukeofurl 1.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 8:00 am

        Garner is being crushed in the ratings by Forsking so thinks out doing him will work.
        Why doenst he try for the part of the sensible left wing market that RNZ has , its bigger than ZB !

        • Ed 1.1.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:12 am

          Jonathan Cook nails it.

          “The very preposterousness of the allegations, and the fact that they are taken so seriously by a political and media class selected for their submissiveness to the neoliberal order, accelerates the process by which these opinion-formers discredit themselves. Their authority wanes by the day, and as a result their usefulness to the power-structure rapidly diminishes.

          This is where we are now: in the final stages of a busted system that is clinging on to credibility by its fingernails. Sooner or later, its grip will be lost and it will plunge into the abyss. We will wonder how we ever fell for any of its deceptions.

          In the meantime, we must get on with the urgent task of liberating our minds, of undoing the toxic mental and emotional training we were subjected to, of critiquing and deriding those whose job is to enforce the corrupt orthodoxy, and of replotting a course towards a future that saves the human species from impending extinction.”

        • cleangreen 1.1.1.2
          22 September 2018 at 9:34 am

          For once I do have to agree with Dukeofurl (in part carefully).

          Duncan Garner was always traditionally a ‘left of centre broadcaster’.

          So yes Duncan does belong in the ‘left wing media.

          But I am not convinced that RNZ is now actually quote; – “a’left wing market’ .

          The reasons for my reservations are that when national run RNZ they installed so many of their “stool pigeons’ inside this public platform that it is actually now heavily controlled by the right wing from their own planted CEO down to the broadcasters such as Suzy Ferguson, Kathyn Ryan, Jesse Mulligan,; – all proven right wingers.

          They should be alleviating Kim Hill to be the principal head of broadcasting here who is our long time balanced top broadcaster to the top position now and let the others go.

          The new ‘Minister of broadcasting’ urgently needs to finally provide us with their “promised free to air TV channel that has a deep seated base of constructive “investigative journalism’ in it’s core operations’.

          https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018619322/new-government-new-plans-for-broadcasting

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96745495/labour-promises-freetoair-rnz-tv-channel

          Lets do this’; – labour!!!!!!! – tick tock tick tock.

      • James 1.1.2
        22 September 2018 at 8:31 am

        Of course he’s paid – he has a job. That’s how it works.

        You should try it.

        • Ed 1.1.2.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:40 am

          You only get his job if you support the extremist neoliberal cult.
          I wouldn’t sell my soul to pimp for large corporations.

    • Ad 1.2
      22 September 2018 at 7:54 am

      For 1,500 unwanted refugees, Winston will have got a handsome price that will come up in next years’ budget.

      Looking forward to seeing what it is.

      • Dukeofurl 1.2.1
        22 September 2018 at 7:58 am

        The current number is 1000. the increase is only 500.
        The regional fund allready gets $1 bill a year but only is on track to spend a fraction of that over 2 -3 years . What more could he ask for ?

        • Ad 1.2.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:05 am

          Yes that’s the question.
          If I were Winston I’d be doing something large like forming an NZ version of Temasek.
          Or electrifying the main rail line from Whangarei to Bluff.
          Or a free perm (or wet shave) for anyone over 60.

          • Chuck 1.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 9:40 am

            Ad, what Winston wants above all else is this…

            NZF needs an electorate seat to guarantee it does not disappear into the Kola Superdeep Borehole in 2020.

            Ardern needed the refugee increase so as not to look inept with her UN friends, Winston played it well and made sure Ardern owes him a major favor.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2
          22 September 2018 at 12:00 pm

          It’s actually really difficult to spend $1 billion productively. Much thought has to go into what needs to be done to achieve the desired result.

          I say that the government should build three 11 nanometre fabrication plants in NZ and have them supplied from NZ resources. To do that requires a major development of our resources in extracting and processing our silicon deposits, germanium and other doping element deposits, producing the factories to produce Hydrofluoric acid (and the resources for that), legislation for the correct regulation of the industry and more that I probably haven’t thought of yet.

          It’s not just a question of Here’s a billion dollars, go spend it.

      • Cinny 1.2.2
        22 September 2018 at 8:03 am

        Ad, who doesn’t want the refugees? Silly simon is the one spinning the narrative that you seem to be buying into.

        Winston is sweet as with it, as are the majority of kiwis.

        At the announcement today he (Winston) said he had “no reservations” at all, referring reporters to a speech he made last year.

        “Saying that we could envisage the target being seriously increased but there were provisions we had to get ready for first.”

        The Kiwibuild programme and falling immigration numbers were “pre-conditions” that had been fulfilled, said Mr Peters.

        “This is about people, not about politics and controversy”, he said.

        https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/366801/refugee-quota-to-rise-from-1000-to-1500

        • Ad 1.2.2.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:06 am

          I don’t believe Winston Peters is telling the truth for one second.

          Who in New Zealand does?

          • Cinny 1.2.2.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 8:10 am

            Who in NZ does? Not the nat’s lolololz. I guess because the nat’s have spun so much shite for so long they expect everyone behaves like that…

        • James 1.2.2.2
          22 September 2018 at 8:33 am

          “Winston is sweet as with it, as are the majority of kiwis.”

          Oh really ? Where did you get that ?

          • Antoine 1.2.2.2.1
            22 September 2018 at 9:19 am

            I’m pretty sure the majority of Kiwis want less refugees. Evidence: How the votes stack up in Stuff comment threads.

            A.

            • Incognito 1.2.2.2.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 10:35 am

              😱

            • Cinny 1.2.2.2.1.2
              22 September 2018 at 1:28 pm

              There was a survey I heard on the radio this week, will try find it later.

              Stuff comments mean absolutely nada, it’s very easy to set up a number of email addy’s and make a number of negative comments, appearing like they come from different people, but in reality they come from the same place.

              This dodgy fella in Wakefield made a business out of doing so, will find the link for that too later.

              Back in a while with links 🙂

              • Cinny …
                22 September 2018 at 2:53 pm

                Okie dokie….

                Survey released 20 Sept 2018 by Ipsos

                “Most New Zealanders want to keep accepting refugees”

                http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1809/S00232/what-new-zealanders-think-of-refugees-and-immigration.htm

                Next link is for the dodgy fella that used to live in Wakefield who made it his business to talk up his company via online comments from bogus accounts and manipulate goggle rankings.

                “She said part of her job was to register a ‘‘huge number’’ of fake email addresses which were used to manipulate Google’s ranking system anonymously. It was a scheme, created by Katavich, to improve his websites’ performance on Google, she said.

                The email addresses were also used to write ‘‘nonsense’’ blog posts designed to outrank websites that were critical of Katavich and his company, Nelson said.”

                https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-southland-times/20150909/281698318521510

                • Antoine …
                  22 September 2018 at 11:05 pm

                  The survey shows that “Most New Zealanders want to keep accepting refugees, with 62% disagreeing with the statement “We must close our borders to refugees entirely – we can’t accept any at this time”. However, this is a decrease of 5 points from 2017, with slightly more people now feeling we should close our borders (29%, up from 26% in 2016).”

                  So:
                  – a slim majority of Kiwis are willing to continue accepting at least some refugees, but
                  – a substantial minority want our borders closed to refugees entirely, and
                  – no evidence presented on how many Kiwis actually want an increased level of refugees.

                  On this basis, I would amend my original statement to “I’m pretty sure the majority of Kiwis do not want more refugees.”

                  As for your Wakefield fella, I agree he seems dodgy but I don’t think his activities have anything to do with skewing the scrum on Stuff comment thread voting.

                  A.

            • McFlock 1.2.2.2.1.3
              22 September 2018 at 3:33 pm

              If the Stuff comment threads reflected the wishes of the NZ population, we’d be living in a Gilead.

              • Ed …
                22 September 2018 at 3:34 pm

                Great comment !

              • Antoine …
                22 September 2018 at 11:07 pm

                Stuff is one of NZ’s two main print news outlets. It’s not an aligned political blog, it’s neither particularly right nor particularly left wing. I think we have to take it as a reasonable finger on the pulse of the NZ population at large. Maybe you should reflect that your views may be more in the minority than you realise.

                A.

                • Ed …
                  22 September 2018 at 11:10 pm

                  Stuff is hard right.

                • McFlock …
                  22 September 2018 at 11:46 pm

                  Who’s in government?
                  lol that still feels new to say.

                  You might think that feedback on a partially (given tech poverty issues) self-selecting survey with subjective and informal content analysis is a reasonable source of information. I laugh at that idea.

                  • Antoine …
                    23 September 2018 at 3:11 am

                    > You might think that feedback on a partially (given tech poverty issues) self-selecting survey with subjective and informal content analysis is a reasonable source of information.

                    It’s kinda the best we’ve got.

                    Except Cinny’s survey, which is kinda well aligned with Stuff IMO – with:
                    – 29% of respondents wanting to stop accepting refugees entirely
                    – 33% stating that refugees cannot assimilate into NZ
                    – 41% agreeing that “there are terrorists pretending to be refugees who will enter New Zealand to cause violence and destruction”
                    – 65% agreeing that “priority should be given to immigrants with higher education and qualifications”.

                    I say again, most Kiwis do not want more refugees. You think they do because you are in a left wing echo chamber.

                    More evidence: https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/public/cromwell/cromwell/message/51013514. The poll asks: “should New Zealand take in 1500 refugees? Is it enough?” 58.7% of respondents say “No – we shouldn’t be taking in so many” (and a further 5.2% are undecided).

                    A.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 September 2018 at 4:26 pm

                      Oh, well, if the metropolis of Cromwell is against it in an online poll, everyone must be agin it. /sarc

                      So 62% in Cinny’s poll are for it, in the Cromwell poll almost the same are against it, and you’re still thinking we know a damned thing?

                      “The best we’ve got” isn’t good enough to make the calls you’re making. You might as well toss a coin and pretend that means something about how NZers, as a population, feel about the refugee quota.

                    • Antoine …
                      24 September 2018 at 6:42 am

                      > 62% in Cinny’s poll are for it

                      Read again. Only 62% in Cinny’s poll are for having _any amount of refugees at all_ – the remainder are undecided or want none at all. 62% is not an approval rating for having _more_ refugees than we do now.

                      A.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  23 September 2018 at 3:37 am

                  It’s not an aligned political blog,

                  [Citation Needed]

                  It certainly looks like a right-wing aligned political blog to me – especially when you take into account the comments.

            • Muttonbird 1.2.2.2.1.4
              22 September 2018 at 6:49 pm

              It doesn’t matter one bit what Stuff commenters want, NZ is well behind in its commitments regarding refugee intake and this government is at least doing something to rectify that.

              Part of our poor humanitarian contribution, and our low defence contribution is due to our unique geographical situation and our reluctance to spend on defence. But that even more reason to beef up humanitarian efforts – because we are notably and justifiably shy on active military efforts.

              If NZ wants to participate as a global citizen, which we’ve heard so much about with reference to trade, we must pull our weight on humanitarian issues especially as we don’t like to contribute militarily.

              I’d rather our peace-keeping efforts and infrastructure support be done closer to home and not in oil-grabbing wars in the Middle East, but if we must contribute there to be seen to be doing our bit then so be it. This at least supports our position at the table when trying to initiate meaningful change in the way the west and the east interact.

              To blithely state that ‘we don’t want refugees’ is selfish and benighted, Antoine, but your posting history suggests you are a massive inward-looking simpleton so I am not surprised.

              • Antoine …
                22 September 2018 at 11:08 pm

                > To blithely state that ‘we don’t want refugees’ is selfish and benighted, Antoine

                On the contrary, it’s patriotic and forward-thinking.

                A.

      • Muttonbird 1.2.3
        22 September 2018 at 9:18 am

        Staying in government would be the prime motivation.

    • Cinny 1.3
      22 September 2018 at 7:56 am

      Funny, just because the prior national coalition called themselves national led, doesn’t mean every coalition government has to.

      Mind you the inflated self importance and bloated egos of the nats is probably why they chose to do so.

      It’s such a non story.

      • Ed 1.3.1
        22 September 2018 at 7:58 am

        The corporate media’s job is to defend the neoliberal establishment.

      • Ed 1.3.2
        22 September 2018 at 8:15 am

        Jonathan Cook is on the money with this commentary.

        “Journalists typically have a passive relationship to power, in stark contrast to their image as tenacious watchdog. But more fundamental than control over narrative is the ideology that guides these narratives. Ideology ensures the power-system is invisible not only to us, those who are abused and exploited by it, but also to those who benefit from it.

        It is precisely because power resides in structures and ideology, rather than individuals, that it is so hard to see. And the power-structures themselves are made yet more difficult to identify because the narratives created about our societies are designed to conceal those structures and ideology – where real power resides – by focusing instead on individuals.

        That is why our newspapers and TV shows are full of stories about personalities – celebrities, royalty, criminals, politicians. They are made visible so we fail to notice the ideological structures we live inside, which are supposed to remain invisible.

        News and entertainment are the ripples on a lake, not the lake itself. But the ripples could not exist without the lake that forms and shapes them.”

      • James 1.3.3
        22 September 2018 at 8:37 am

        Oh cinny. You are missing the point.

        This government DID call themselves labour led. Until whinny said they were not allowed.

        Now they can’t even utter it.

        It’s very funny. Labour and Cindy are being made a joke.

        • Ed 1.3.3.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:39 am

          Being made a joke of.
          By Duncan Garner.
          And James.

        • Dukeofurl 1.3.3.2
          22 September 2018 at 1:25 pm

          NO they didnt.

          Most of the references were ‘neutral’ as in Government or ‘the government’
          Other uses were ‘this government’ or coalition government.

          ‘Labour led’ is a very small usage this year.

        • Cinny 1.3.3.3
          22 September 2018 at 3:06 pm

          James do you have a link for your claim please?

          • Ed 1.3.3.3.1
            22 September 2018 at 3:09 pm

            Of course he doesn’t.

          • veutoviper 1.3.3.3.2
            22 September 2018 at 3:19 pm

            Cinny, have a look at the research I did and put up at 1.9 on formal usage of the various government related terms in formal releases, speeches etc put out via the formal goverment Beehive website.

            The current government did call itself “Labour-led” for the first few months after its establishment last Oct but this seemed to be increasingly replaced by “Coalition Government” as 2018 went on, with the last formal reference on the Beehive website to “Labour-led Government” in June 2018.

            It is not a recent change, nor does it in any way imply that Ardern has been pressured by or given in to Peters.

            • Incognito 1.3.3.3.2.1
              22 September 2018 at 5:07 pm

              It has been alleged, and still is, that Winston Peters extracted a (very) high price to allow (!) Jacinda Ardern to become “the accidental PM”. It fits with his skills and long political experience. Thus, it’s no surprise that based on this premise people have no difficulty finding ‘evidence’ that confirms it. In fact, some will try their hardest to ‘manufacture’ evidence.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 1.4
      22 September 2018 at 8:25 am

      Can see why you’d find Garner’s opinion piece funny, James – he’s a ‘funny’ man, and piles the “industrial scale” invective on so thick that there’s barely room for a narrative.

      I too think it’s a chuckle-fest, because the shriller and more frequent this type of self-harming opinion becomes, the harder it will be for the no-mates party to do more damage. What a hoot.

      Long may National be too ‘principled’ to work with potential mates, and long may these piss-weak attempts to undermine the (Labour-led?) coalition continue – really it’s too funny.

      “this latest brainfart”

      “has been rolled on an industrial scale”

      “A once proud party”

      “the ageing husband”

      “So can you believe this? Can you believe”

      “The backroom arm-wrestle between the PM and her maker” (Jacinda as ‘Winston’s monster’?)

      “should infuriate Ardern, but she has nowhere to go.” (should? Channelling Ardern?)

      “cunning Peters”

      “Peters and his new bag of tricks and twists at every turn”

      “Had she not got her sweet-spot number of 1500, she would have looked impotent.” (A back-handed compliment? [She got her ‘sweet-spot number’ of 1500, so looks powerful.] Well I never!)

      “If Ardern is king, then she’s in a battle to keep the title”

      “his delusional thoughts” (Hmm, Peter’s isn’t the one with delusional thoughts.)

      “So the name Labour is dead, put on ice, gone – well, for now anyway.” (Yet the Labour party website URL remains https://www.labour.org.nz/ Remarkable!)

      “anything Labour-led no longer exists and it must never pass anyone’s lips” (Pure hyperbole from a try-hard blowhard.)

      “Labour ministers have been too scared”

      “It actually beggars belief that Labour has dumped itself from this ruling coalition” (Yes, that really would beggar belief.)

      “It is no longer a Labour-led coalition.”

      “Winston barked, Labour’s conga line of weakness and wusses” (It’s clear whose ‘barking’, and who is weak. There’s a bridge that needs strengthening.)

      “Why on earth would you agree to losing your name and identity… Maybe when you’re not.”

      • Dukeofurl 1.4.1
        22 September 2018 at 8:32 am

        You wonder if stimulants are involved in the writing ?

      • AB 1.4.2
        22 September 2018 at 9:34 am

        Snippeted like this, what strikes me is what an awful writer Garner is. No originality of expression, no grace or wit, no freshness or insight. Just the repeated hammer blows of water cooler cliches. Why is someone so inarticulate given such a platform?

      • Gabby 1.4.3
        22 September 2018 at 5:55 pm

        I guess they’ve given up on wedging Labour and the Greens. That right Cheerman?

    • Ankerrawshark 1.5
      22 September 2018 at 9:09 am

      Yes James I am sure anything Garner writes is a joke….

    • Ankerrawshark 1.6
      22 September 2018 at 9:18 am

      Yes James I understand you laughing, what Garner writes is a joke

      Most people won’t give a flying rats arse about this. They will be more interested in do they get a pay rise, have a fair tenancy or get a shot at a kiwi build home. Or do their kids get any of the above? Actually it would be great to do one of those surveys…..what’s more important to you, housing or the freaking name the govt calls itself?

      The right are really desperate if that’s all they’ve got to pick on I.e the coalition name….oh yes remind me about those GPD figures that came out this week

      • James 1.6.1
        22 September 2018 at 9:23 am

        And this labour-led coalition is the punchline.

        • Ankerrawshark 1.6.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 9:37 am

          Yes like I say James that all you righties have. But laugh away James. I know we on the left we laugh a lot about the joke Simon Bridges is. Each to their own

          • James 1.6.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 9:46 am

            In fairness I laugh at bridges as well.

            • Ankerrawshark 1.6.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 9:49 am

              Thanks for your fairness James

              And laugher is good unless it is directed towards people with little or no power such as the homeless, Trans people,,etc

    • Morrissey 1.7
      22 September 2018 at 9:46 am

      Idiot. Garner has about as much credibility as you do.

    • Chuck 1.8
      22 September 2018 at 10:02 am

      Agree its pretty funny James, reminds me of the Harry Potter movies…

      “Voldemort is the archenemy of Harry Potter, who according to a prophecy has “the power to vanquish the Dark Lord”. Nearly every witch or wizard dares not utter his unmentionable name, and refers to him instead with such expressions as “You-Know-Who”, “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named” or “the Dark Lord”.

      I wonder if in the secret coalition agreement appendix (either the 33 or 38-page version) between Labour and NZF there was a clause that covered the removal of “Labour lead”?

    • veutoviper 1.9
      22 September 2018 at 11:43 am

      Let’s Do This! What?

      Lay to rest for good this ridiculous and irrelevant argument as to whether the current Government should be called a “Labour-led Government”, “Coalition Government” – or just simply “the Government” or “this Government”.

      I took ten minutes of time to go to the official NZ Government website -https://www.beehive.govt.nz/ – to see what terms have been used since the current Government came into being last Oct 2017, and their proportionality of use to put this whole idiotic situation into perspective.

      Since last Oct 2017 until this morning (c1000 hrs), a total of 1772 official Government Releases, Speeches and Features have been published on the Beehive website.

      Of these 1772 official releases, 264 (15%) were in 2017 and 1508 (85%) in 2018 to date and:

      – A total of 1272 have referred to “Government” in one or more instances per release = 189 (15%) releases in 2017 and 1083 (85%) in 2018

      – A total of 786 have referred to “the+Government” in one or more instances per release = 118 (15%) releases in 2017 and 658 (85%) in 2018

      – A total of 370 have referred to “this+Government” in one or more instances per release = 56 (15%) releases in 2017 and 314 (85%) in 2018

      – A total of 136 have referred to “Coalition+Government” in one or more instances per release = 13 (9.6%) releases in 2017 and 123 (90.4%) in 2018

      – A total of 25 have referred to “Labour-led+Government” in one or more instances per release = 16 (64%) releases in 2017 and only 9 (36%) in 2018.

      Of the 9 “Labour-led+Government” references in 2018: 3 were in Jan, 2 were in Feb, 2 were in March, 1 was in May and the final one was on 18 June 2018.

      The above may indicate that a decision, or preference, to move away from using the term “Labour-led Government” in official releases appears to have been evident since about the beginning of 2018, with a move to using merely “Government” or “the Government” or “this Government” – or “Coalition Government”.

      Over the last 3 – 4 months (June 2018 to now) the prevalence of the use of “Coalition Government” appears to have increased by members of all three parties (Labour, NZF and Green Party), based on my perception of its frequency rather than a full count.

      In other words, usage or non-usage of the terms “Labour-led Goverment” and “Coalition Government” are not a thing of just the last week or so as suggested by Bridges and others to try to give the impression that Ardern has been pressured by and given into Peters (and is therefore weak).

      Ardern’s releases use a mix of “Government” or “Coalition Government”; as do Peters’ releases. Here are a few instances of this from the “Coalition+Government” search.

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/search?query=Coalition%2BGovernment&f%5B0%5D=government_facet%3A6203&f%5B0%5D=government_facet%3A6203&page=0

      BUT WAIT – there is more.

      As we all know, there is always an exception to every rule – and this applies in this case also.

      The Beehive website’s first breakdown in its search function, does so by Government Term”. https://www.beehive.govt.nz/search

      And guess what …

      Government term
      Labour-led Government – 2017-2020 (1772)
      National-led Government – 2014-2017 (7589)
      National-led Government – 2011-2014 (6853)
      National-led Government – 2008-2011 (7741)
      Labour/Progressive Coalition – 2005-2008 (9592)
      Labour/Progressive Coalition – 2002-2005 (8553)
      Labour/Alliance – 1999 to 2002 (8455)
      National/New Zealand First Coalition 1996-1999 (6490)
      National – 1993-1996 (367)

      ROFL.

  2. Ed 2
    22 September 2018 at 8:28 am

    Rich people don’t like the government.
    Jacinda must be doing some things right.

    On an aside, this was a meeting of the super rich and its sycophants.
    The cast list is worth perusing.

    Craig Heatley.
    John Key.
    Murray Deaker.
    Mike Pero.
    Richie McCaw.
    Tim Glasson.
    Gerry Brownlee.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/107284044/millionaire-heatley-rates-ardern-at-book-launch-shared-with-key

    • James 2.1
      22 September 2018 at 8:55 am

      I love how you can making a sweeping statement about rich people – failing to understand that they are all different and have different views.

      All you poor people are the same.

      Obv not a true statement but it shows how stupid yours is.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 9:11 am

        “All you poor people are the same.” – James.

        Are you sure that your statement isn’t true, James?

        These “poor people” are rather numerous, but do you know enough of them to be sure that they’re not all the same?

        • James 2.1.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 9:18 am

          You missed the obv not a true statement bit from the quote (so predictable).

          And yes I am sure that statement isn’t true.

          I only have to know a couple to know that they are not all the same.

      • cleangreen 2.1.2
        22 September 2018 at 9:42 am

        James this is un-called for and abusive!!!!!!!!

        James said; – ‘All you poor people are the same’.

        Shame on you. –

      • AB 2.1.3
        22 September 2018 at 9:48 am

        Poor people do have similarities. The main one is being poor. Not very surprisingly, this is quite an important factor in their lives and tends to influence their views and attitudes in some broadly similar, though not identical, ways. The same is broadly true of rich people.
        To deny this is plain silly. Though we have had 4-5 decades now where it has not really been the done thing to talk about social class, and individuality has been glorified, so it’s also not surprising that this silliness is quite widespread.

    • Bearded Git 2.2
      22 September 2018 at 10:12 am

      +1000

    • millsy 2.3
      22 September 2018 at 10:29 am

      Murray Deaker – who spent the 1990’s on Newstalk ZB banging on about the feminization of the education system and the ‘great Kiwi clobbering machine’.

    • Incognito 2.4
      22 September 2018 at 10:50 am

      That’s quite a book launch for a guy who obviously likes to blow his own trumpet. Nice of Stuff to indulge in a bit of free advertising too.

      • McFlock 2.4.1
        22 September 2018 at 3:53 pm

        What makes you think it was free?

        Sure, no direct pay-for-play as such maybe, but his conceit probably means the marketing budget is quite high. So yeah, Stuff’s parent company might be inclined to “value-add” for a bulk purchase.

        All mights and maybes, of course, but I’ve seen media act similarly on a smaller scale.

        • Incognito 2.4.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 5:13 pm

          Point taken but usually an ad or similar is labelled as such, e.g. “Sponsored Content”.

          In any case, the ‘ad’ was in the wrong section; it belongs here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books

          • McFlock 2.4.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 5:32 pm

            Sponsored content applies to direct payment.
            Not “oh wow they just gave us a huge cheque for something else, but now I think everything they do is newsworthy”.

            • Incognito 2.4.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 7:51 pm

              Of course, there are no blurred or fuzzy boundaries in this game. The rules are crystal clear and the playing field is level and everybody plays by the rules and shows good sportsmanship. I love neoliberal meritocracy.

    • Anne 2.5
      22 September 2018 at 11:17 am

      I’m with Ed @ 2 on this one.
      Years ago when I was in a position to observe Craig Heatley… despite his surface charm he was an arrogant bastard. I have no doubt that arrogance grew in stature as his fortune increased in value.

    • Tony Veitch [not etc.] 2.6
      22 September 2018 at 4:22 pm

      Wow! Take a few moments to read the comments under the article.

      80% more or less anti the 1% and Cur (sorry sir) John Key. There’s a lot of support out there for what Jacinda and the Coalition are doing!

      • Incognito 2.6.1
        22 September 2018 at 5:17 pm

        Please don’t tell Antoine; it’ll shatter his belief in the veracity of Stuff comment threads.

        • Antoine 2.6.1.1
          23 September 2018 at 6:17 am

          It seems that Ardern has broad popularity, that a lot of the shine is coming off Key since he left office, and that Heatley has done little to endear himself to the masses

          A.

          • Incognito 2.6.1.1.1
            23 September 2018 at 11:08 am

            You got that from the Stuff comment threads? But you don’t trust the weather reports here on TS!? Go figure.

      • adam 2.6.2
        22 September 2018 at 6:03 pm

        Sir Ponytail, keeps get less popular as people realise what a truly terrible government he ran.

      • Ed 2.6.3
        23 September 2018 at 6:27 am

        For example.

        “Heatley was worth close to 350 million 20 years ago. and yet he has achieved absolutely nothing since.
        And even that money was made through Sky which is nothing more than a price gouging monopoly.
        Spare me the BS about entrepreneurship. Just another neolib rentier.”

        • Incognito 2.6.3.1
          23 September 2018 at 11:14 am

          Seems to me he was a lucky punter. But as usual, they have to talk up their superhuman skills & intelligence, take all the credit for their ‘hard work’, and then expect the plebs to be in awe and fall on their knees screaming “we’re not worthy!”, which further stokes their misguided sense of entitlement and superiority. Some of the best and worst entrepreneurs are venture capitalists.

        • joe90 2.6.3.2
          23 September 2018 at 11:38 am

          and yet he has achieved absolutely nothing since.

          In 2011 a Hawera girl was in the courts trying to secure her share of his reported $220 million, and today he’s reportedly worth $350 million.

          Arithmetic ain’t your strong suit, eh.

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10743529

          • greywarshark 2.6.3.2.1
            24 September 2018 at 9:41 am

            When you have over a few mill. what’s $130 million difference? $350m – $220m = $130m. It is so mysterious how people manage their finances and work effort to make that sort of money. Every now and then a book is written about business people or methods. They can be as interesting as convoluted crime mysteries or war stories.

            The BBC made a documentary on the hostile attempt at takeover of Trusthouse Forte in the UK called Blood on the Carpet. You might be able to get it here.
            https://imoviemats.cf/hd/youtube-movie-blood-on-the-carpet-the-rocco-forte-story-hdrip.html
            I have an adblocker on at present so can’t receive it and haven’t time to fiddle around and watch it now but probably available to those interested and who remove their adblocker for the duration.

            • lprent 2.6.3.2.1.1
              24 September 2018 at 10:20 am

              It kind of amuses me with the reaction of advert sites to adblockers and vpn connections. Don’t these bozos realise that all they are doing is encouraging the spread of ad spoofers? The ones that say where you are ‘from’ (ie whatever the site thinks it would like) and will accept the ads – filing them under “don’t show”.

              Personally I use a blockers and vpns most of the time.

              Work has them along with a list of sites that we should not read (which we keep IT updating as they tend to block sites that we need for programming references). And it always pops out in a different country because that is where the hub is.

              My cell has both vpn and blockers because it is potentially susceptible to interception issues (especially airports). Same for my personal laptop and pads.

              My home system is the only one that doesn’t use them. It just controls malware and popups. That is so that I can see the net in the near natural state when I’m at home, and even then I have a browser attuned to a vpn connection on my desktop with an experimental ad spoofer.

              I tend to find the ad people to be somewhat stupid about the net generally. They’re forever trying to bend it to their customers will, and forever getting avoided. Probably why I don’t use facebook much any more. About a third adverts? – they can go and suck themselves.

  3. Ed 3
    22 September 2018 at 8:38 am

    When will New Zealand politicians develop the courage to ignore the alcohol lobby.

    ‘One in 20 of all deaths due to alcohol, says WHO
    Report finds 13.5% of deaths among people in their 20s are linked to booze
    Alcohol is responsible for more than 5% of all deaths worldwide, or around 3 million a year, new figures have revealed.
    The data, part of a report from the World Health Organization, shows that about 2.3 million of those deaths in 2016 were of men, and that almost 29% of all alcohol-caused deaths were down to injuries – including traffic accidents and suicide.
    The report, which comes out every four years, reveals the continued impact of alcohol on public health around the world, and highlights that the young bear the brunt: 13.5% of deaths among people in their 20s are linked to booze, with alcohol responsible for 7.2% of premature deaths overall.

    A WHO alcohol-control expert, Dr Vladimir Poznyak, who was involved in the report, said the health burden of alcohol was “unacceptably large”.
    “Unfortunately, the implementation of the most effective policy options is lagging behind the magnitude of the problems,” he said, adding that projections suggested both worldwide alcohol consumption and the related harms were set to rise in the coming years.
    “Governments need to do more to meet the global targets and to reduce the burden of alcohol on societies; this is clear, and this action is either absent or not sufficient in most of the countries of the world,” said Poznyak.
    Poznyak said the latest figures were likely to underestimate the true picture. “Alcohol use starts in many countries well before [age] 15, so that is why we can say that our estimates are quite conservative, because we don’t count at all the impact of alcohol consumption on kids below 15,” he said.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/21/5-of-all-deaths-due-to-alcohol-who-says

    • James 3.1
      22 September 2018 at 8:51 am

      Do you drink at all ?

      • Ed 3.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 8:54 am

        No. Do you?

        • James 3.1.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 9:08 am

          A little. Mainly a nice Pinot a couple of times a week.

          Not drinking, vegan and prone to go off on abusive rants – you must be fun at parties.

          • ianmac 3.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 9:17 am

            Like most alcoholics James you under-state your intake. Clearly you have a problem shown by your absurd ramblings. Get help old chap/girl.

            • James 3.1.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 9:21 am

              Piss poor attempt there ianmac.

              At least put some effort into it.

              • ianmac …
                22 September 2018 at 11:29 am

                Right on cue James. The unfortunate alcoholics who I know also show anger when confronted with the reality of their condition. Get help.

                • adam …
                  22 September 2018 at 6:04 pm

                  That explains a lot, good spotting ianmac.

                • Muttonbird …
                  22 September 2018 at 6:11 pm

                  This is James’ latest strategy. He’s so desperate at the thought the government is solid, popular, and learning fast he has resorted to calling people drunks.

                  It betrays his own inadequacies of which there are obviously many!

            • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.1.1.1.2
              22 September 2018 at 9:49 am

              Thanks ianmac, your comment gave me a chuckle – a great way to start the day (channelling James @1).

            • Ngungukai 3.1.1.1.1.3
              22 September 2018 at 10:25 am

              I think James spends most of his time during the day on T/S drinking Pinot judging by his comments ? Early stages of alcohol dementia IMHO ?

            • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1.4
              22 September 2018 at 4:06 pm

              He’d still be more fun at a party than Ed.

          • Ed 3.1.1.1.2
            22 September 2018 at 9:25 am

            I hope you aren’t an angry drunk at the parties you go to. I sense you drink quite a lot more than you say.

            James , I am lucky that I am sufficiently self-assured not to require grog to be confident at parties. You don’t need to drink to be interesting. However, your comment was instructional on what you think.

            • James 3.1.1.1.2.1
              22 September 2018 at 9:34 am

              Ed – I hope you arnt a violent junkie. I sense you do a lot more drugs (and hard ones at that) than you have admitted to.

              I agree you do not need to drink to be interesting. But on the flip side you are evidence that not drinking dosnt automatically make you interesting either.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                22 September 2018 at 9:52 am

                James (“I sense“), up to your old tricks again – no fair using your psychic powers on this site.

                Please take your battle to the astral plane.

              • adam …
                22 September 2018 at 6:10 pm

                Really james, you have issues mate, you’re pro beating kids, you’re a misogynist, and now you think anyone who disagrees with you takes hard drugs.

                Get out to the garden, go for a walk, engage with some nice people who are not the Tory hate crowd you usually engage with – you need to get some nice things in your life, and it’s obvious it not happening for you at the moment.

              • McFlock …
                22 September 2018 at 6:23 pm

                [headdesk]

                Well, I thought it was a funny response to Ed’s puffery, if that’s worth anything 🙂

                • Muttonbird …
                  22 September 2018 at 6:26 pm

                  It’s really not.

                  • McFlock …
                    22 September 2018 at 6:36 pm

                    The best things in life are free.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 September 2018 at 7:07 pm

                      I think your attitude toward Ed has a cost. We see the hard right and the not so hard right rallying around free speech for extremists so we know they are intent of having those views heard.

                      This forum is our place and the foil to it. We need to accept not attack commentators like Ed and Adam for their views which are more left and more anarchistic than mine or yours. They link to Galloway and other US sceptics and champion Corbyn and I say good on them because without that energy you are left with a bunch of moderate lefties and hand-wringing centrists trying to hold back the tide of right wing thought.

                      To congratulate James on calling Ed a drunk and a drug addict? What the fuck are you thinking, son?

                    • McFlock …
                      22 September 2018 at 7:53 pm

                      To congratulate James on calling Ed a drunk and a drug addict? What the fuck are you thinking, son?

                      Reread the thread.

                      James said Ed would be boring at parties as teetoal (not a drunk) and a vegan. Meh. No response from me, run of the mill goading.

                      From that, Ed announced that he “sensed” that James was an alcoholic who underreported his drinking consumption and might even be an “agry drunk” at parties.

                      So James just flipped back with an equally reliable “sensing” that Ed was a junkie on drugs.

                      Then two fools pretended that James didn’t to to Ed what Ed had done in an immediately previous comment, “sense” some substance abuse problem on the basis of fuckall.

                      So now you’re another fool who leaps to Ed’s defense when my comment had nothing to do with Ed’s political opinions, other than maybe that he apparently gets many of his political opinions from the same place he “senses” substance abuse problems in other people.

                      Reread the thread. James started goading – tosser, fair call. Ed leapt on it and suggested James might be a violent drunk / alcoholic. James mirrored that allegation back, using the same language and substituting drugs. Then James cops flack as if he suddenly and out of the blue called Ed a junkie. If that description of the discussion is incorrect, where is it incorrect?

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 September 2018 at 8:03 pm

                      James began his ‘have you been drinking’ strategy on Wednesday night. It’s his new thing, do keep up. It’s not out of the blue.

                      As for reading that car crash, I’ll pass thanks.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 September 2018 at 8:40 pm

                      And well, for my sins I did read the thread in the end and I think the bit where your lingerie got bunched was when Ed said, “I sense you drink quite a lot more than you say”.

                      This is actually GP policy. When they ask patients how much they drink they add a bit or a lot. GPs know patients understate how much they drink. There was an article some few weeks ago on this very thing which I can’t be arsed finding for you.

                      Ed has obviously read about this because whatever you accuse Ed of you cannot accuse him of not reading a lot.

                      The childish retort from James about hard drugs was a clumsy and juvenile escalation but one you got your jollies from apparently.

                      Go and have a drink and think on it…

                    • McFlock …
                      22 September 2018 at 8:42 pm

                      So you’ll criticise my comment without reading what I was responding to?

                      Sounds legit.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      22 September 2018 at 8:43 pm

                      What else do you want me to respond to?

                    • McFlock …
                      22 September 2018 at 9:39 pm

                      Well, maybe getting what I “congratulated” him on right would be a start.

    • Ed 3.2
      22 September 2018 at 2:09 pm

      The problem is a New Zealand one.
      And for the old as well as the young.
      50% of older men.
      This is an epidemic.
      I wonder how many of these over 50s are denial and claim to have the odd Pinot a few times a week?

      When will a government take on the liquor industry?

      “Up to 40 percent of older New Zealanders are engaging in hazardous drinking, a study has found.

      Researchers from Massey University and the University of Auckland explored the prevalence of hazardous drinking in 4000 New Zealanders aged 50 years and over.
      Hazardous drinking was defined as alcohol consumption that puts the person at risk of immediate harm, such as hospitalisation, or long-term harm such as cancer.
      About half of older males and a quarter of older females were hazardous drinkers.
      Research co-leader Dr Andy Towers said he wasn’t surprised by the results.
      “What we know from around the world is that we have a cohort of baby boomers that are drinking much, much more than any previous generation of retirees before.
      “Drink is the drug of choice for baby boomers.”

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/367051/drink-is-the-drug-of-choice-for-baby-boomers

      • gsays 3.2.1
        22 September 2018 at 2:46 pm

        What do you reckon is the solution Ed?

        Prohibition sure as Dickens doesn’t work.
        Not more tax.

        Education is probably the best tool, to avoid excess.

        The majority of alcohol I consume now is home brew cider.
        So satisfying to pop the top and taste where the batch is at, flavour wise.

        • Ed 3.2.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 3:03 pm

          These seemed fairly commonsense recommendations.

          Introducing a new Alcohol Harm Reduction Act to replace the Sale of Liquor Act 1989;
          Increasing the price of alcohol through a rise in excise tax
          Phasing out alcohol marketing over 5 years, allowing only objective product information to be communicated
          Increasing the purchase age for alcohol to 20 years;

          http://www.lawcom.govt.nz/sites/default/files/projectAvailableFormats/NZLC%20R114.pdf

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 4:11 pm

            Taxes don’t work with something you can make at home in a bucket.

            Nixing alcohol ads overnight might help.

            Removing off-licenses from supermarkets might be interesting.

              • McFlock …
                22 September 2018 at 4:55 pm

                Until people start making it themselves, and then price plumments.

                It’s not a straight line relationship with no possible substitution. Your pdf mentions the drop in fortified wine consumption – didn’t ask about substitution. 15 years later we still have a massive drinking problem.

                And my point was that with alcohol, there’s always a substitution available – people buy liquor because they can’t make it themselves. As soon as they find someone who does, 40% “vodka” goes for $10L.

                Come on Ed, you’re proudly “not rich”. Surely you know people who home brew or home distill? Or do you only associate with teetotallers as well as vegans?

            • gsays 3.2.1.1.1.2
              22 September 2018 at 4:30 pm

              I have often wondered how big the ‘black market’ is for tobacco.
              Fairly easy to grow and cure, yet I only know of one friend using it and they pass it on to two or three others.

              I agree with removing from the supermarkets but imagine the squealing from Katherine Rich.

              • McFlock …
                22 September 2018 at 4:57 pm

                I never got the hang of curing it properly. Nasty green acrid smoke from leaf more tar than vegetation, lol

          • gsays 3.2.1.1.2
            22 September 2018 at 4:33 pm

            All sounds reasonable, also zero tolerance in blood alcohol when driving.

            I would like to see age back @ 20.

          • Chuck 3.2.1.1.3
            22 September 2018 at 5:44 pm

            I have just opened a bottle of Pinot Noir I sampled today while out shopping.

            The Crater Rim (Waipara) – On Friday 13th November 2009 their winery burnt to the ground. This Pinot I brought is labeled “From the Ashes” and I can confirm is a very nice drop.

            • Ed 3.2.1.1.3.1
              22 September 2018 at 10:41 pm

              How much do you drink?

              • McFlock …
                22 September 2018 at 10:50 pm

                Hi Ed,

                I had a jug and a pint of beer on wednesday evening, and a wee shot of whiskey yesterday.

                Might have something tonight – there’s a bottle of port I’ve been nursing for a while.

                Couple of chicken drumsticks in the pot as I type.

                Oh, and things being a bit quiet lately, I might partake of some onanistic endeavours later on. That might involve harsh language or blasphemy at the critical moment.

                What are your sins?

  4. greywarshark 4
    22 September 2018 at 9:37 am

    Radionz – Kim discusses a real life theatrical crime of huge vats of money that has been enabled by the greed society of this capitalist neoliberal freemarket era.
    I will put up audio later if I remember.

    In the meantime, an appropriate musical interlude:
    Money Pink Floyd
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkhX5W7JoWI

    Liza Minelli and Joel Grey Cabaret – Money
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I

    Meryl Streep with ABBAs Money Money
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IByDClFTOME

    Blossom Dearie The Riviera (1958)
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6-ZRAW_R8

    9:06 Tom Wright – Author of Billion Dollar Whale: The Man Who Fooled Wall Street, Hollywood, and the World

    Tom Wright
    Billion Dollar Whale: The Man Who Fooled Wall Street, Hollywood, and the World, recounts the true story of Jho Low, dubbed “the Malaysian Great Gatsby”. Low, who is currently on the run, persuaded then-Prime Minister of Malaysia Najib Razak to create an investment fund that he would direct from the shadows in 2009. The fund, which escaped notice or censure by global banks, international auditors, central bankers, and watchdogs, raised billions of dollars which was spent on high living by Low and associates. Najib Razak was arrested in July for his part in the scheme. Kim talks to Tom Wright, who co-authored Billion Dollar Whale with Bradley Hope. Both journalists work for the Wall Street Journal; Wright is a Pulitzer finalist, a Loeb winner, and has garnered numerous awards from the Society of Publishers in Asia, which in 2016 named him Journalist of the Year.

  5. Morrissey 5
    22 September 2018 at 9:45 am

    Those absurd and obscene smears against
    Jeremy Corbyn didn’t just appear out of the blue.

    The flyers that claimed Cynthia to be an anti-semite is a frightening preview of what’s going to happen to Bernie, Ocasio, and every left-wing insurgent with the slightest hint of sympathy for the Palestinians.

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2018/09/20/shrewd-analysis-of-recent-democratic-party-primary/

  6. Ankerrawshark 6
    22 September 2018 at 9:54 am

    Just seeing Andrew? CEO of housing N Z on the Nation saying they focus on keeping people in their home, cause they realized it costs to move the people on. Ffs. I am not sure why tywford hasn’t sacked him, but probably not enough grounds (only moral)

    • greywarshark 6.1
      22 September 2018 at 10:12 am

      What sort of grounds? Coffee or brownfield? He probably knows mora? about the first than the second.

    • veutoviper 6.2
      22 September 2018 at 12:09 pm

      It would probably cost the taxpayer a fortune to sack him.

      Andrew McKenzie was appointed in June 2016 and took up the CEO of housing NZ in Sept 2016. Details of his salary and term are not instantly available but a quick google picked up that his salary in his first year was about $450,000.

      From Wikipedia the term of appointments of previous CEOs seem to be three years which is the norm so presumably his contract will expire in one year, in Sept 2019. Cheaper to use him to make the changes needed and provide some continuity for staff etc (apparently he is reasonably popular with staff some of whom are taking criticism and the changes hard to adapt to, according to some I know in HNZ) and then make decisions on his future next year.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_New_Zealand

  7. cleangreen 7
    22 September 2018 at 9:55 am

    What a grumpy lot we are today?

    The constant overcast wet weather is getting to many as moisture is getting folks down with SAD syndrome perhaps?

    Welcome to climate change as NZ Prime minister Jacinda Ardern’s generation’s “nuclear moment” she needs to do more to stop Climate change”,

    We hope she rattles the world leaders cage about the climate change issues, at the UN ‘junket meeting’ this next week????

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/09/jacinda-ardern-outlines-her-jam-packed-week-at-united-nations.html

  8. Ankerrawshark 8
    22 September 2018 at 9:57 am

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1809/S00272/housing-poverty-and-income-inequality-top-concerns.htm

    Funny nothing from this survey about what the govt are called. Maybe they didn’t ask

  9. marty mars 9
    22 September 2018 at 10:02 am

    A good read for adults.

    “Focusing the conversation on the ethics of disseminating speech rather than the actual content of that speech is hugely useful for the far right for three reasons. Firstly, it allows them to paint themselves as the wronged party — the martyrs and victims. Secondly, it stops people from talking about the actual wronged parties, the real lives at risk. And thirdly, of course, it’s an enormous diversion tactic, a shout of “Fire!” in the crowded theatre of politics. But Liberals don’t want to feel like bad people, so this impossible choice — betray the letter of your principles, or betray the spirit — leaves everyone feeling filthy.”

    https://longreads.com/2018/09/18/no-i-will-not-debate-you/

    • Chuck 9.1
      22 September 2018 at 10:29 am

      After reading the article what stands out to me is anyone that does not agree with the author is far right and a fascist.

      “I’ve spent much of the past five years hearing out and attempting to debate people like Bannon, and in my experience it only emboldens and legitimizes them. As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in hearing those arguments again.”

      Which one could also conclude the author’s own arguments may not be as strong and robust as the author thinks. So retreats back into a safe space (people with the same views).

      • marty mars 9.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 10:33 am

        I took it that the same repetitive 101 arguments help the alt right because of the theatre of it and it doesn’t help the opponents – bogs them down in no win spirals of meaningless pretend discussion.

        • Chuck 9.1.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 10:48 am

          Yes, I can see what you are saying, however, there are always people who may have a certain view that will alter said view if compelling counterviews are put to them.

          That ability is lost once you disengage from debating, and it leaves a void to be filled by the extremes that exist on both sides of any argument/debate.

          • McFlock 9.1.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 4:17 pm

            so how does one identify the person who will genuinely debate a topic from a position but with an open mind, as opposed to the person who wants their opinion to be legitimised as a normal part of the political spectrum by holding a near-identical debate but with a closed mind?

            And if you can’t distinguish between those people, at what point does debate do more harm than good?

            • Chuck 9.1.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 8:54 pm

              “so how does one identify the person who will genuinely debate a topic”

              I would think after a certain time period you would know. However, I would look further than just the person you are debating. It does not matter if they are open minded, they will have people that follow them (pick your public figure). Now some of them could see another position…

              “And if you can’t distinguish between those people, at what point does debate do more harm than good?”

              That’s a tuff one. I would say when free speech crosses over to hate speech. And I know that many here have very different views on what is hate speech. My view is consistent with the current NZ definition of hate speech.

              • McFlock …
                22 September 2018 at 9:57 pm

                I’m not sure this is a hate speech discussion, though.

                If someone’s opinion is demonstrably bullshit but they’re in the discussion to get the credibility of being legitimately debated by reasonable people in order to get a long-tail percentage of dangerous numpties donating to a patreon account, then even if someone else gets persuaded, someone else will be convinced the serious debater got pwned and bung it on youtube. Or, alternatively, be slightly more persuaded to drive a car into a crowd of social liberals.

                It’s like all those photos people get with former presidents and business tycoons – for most, it’s a fun souvineer of an interesting event. For a few con artists, it’s part of a “look at how successful I am, I’m friends with these people, so my get rich quick opportunity is legit” strategy. So if someone is asked to take a picture with someone who they know is sketchy, they might not do it.

                It’s an individual choice as to whether someone engages with someone else, but I think it’s naive to suggest that we should always be ready to engage (not that you did, it’s just been a recurring theme I’ve been reading lately). I’ve a light threshhold for calling someone a fuckwit, but sooner or later everyone has to play the odds and realise that someone who follows debate X and hasn’t worked through all the bullshit (but would become a normal person if they’re treated with respect) is in the distinct minority of people who might drop “1488” or the fucking frog into a random conversation. Even before they get to “hate speech”, if they know enough about the topic to drop Cato Inst links on climate change but pretend not to know basic physics, they are probably just wanting to waste everyone’s time.

                • Chuck …
                  23 September 2018 at 9:09 am

                  Agree with the use of gaining credibility and exposure, and how in certain situations giving someone a platform can be dangerous.

                  On a personal level yes it’s up to the individual if he or she engages. For public figures (in any shape or form) they do need to be prepared to debate opposite viewpoints/support their own.

                  My comment about hate speech was if debating someone took a sinister turn (incite people to violence).

                  • McFlock …
                    23 September 2018 at 4:15 pm

                    Incitement is slightly different to hate speech, but they’re both in a clearly sanctioned area of speech.

                    The “debate/notdebate” question, to my mind, comes up with the dogwhistlers and the folks who will disguise a stiff-arm salute as a wave.

  10. greywarshark 10
    22 September 2018 at 10:10 am

    Nota Bene:
    Max Rushbrooke on Radio nz this very morning –

    11:04 Max Rashbrooke – Government for the public good

    Max Rashbrooke
    Max Rashbrooke is a journalist, author and academic based in Wellington. His first book in 2013, Inequality: A New Zealand Crisis, was followed by The Inequality Debate (2014) and Wealth and New Zealand (2015).

    He’s just released Government for the Public Good: The Surprising Science of Large-Scale Collective Action which presents a rethink of the role and potential of government. Rashbrooke is a research associate of the Institute for Governance and Policy Studies at Victoria University of Wellington. He has twice been the recipient of the Bruce Jesson Senior Journalism Award, and was a 2015 Winston Churchill Fellow.

    Sounds good!

  11. Graeme 11
    22 September 2018 at 10:17 am

    Now this could get entertaining…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366939/landlords-who-lost-thousands-after-flawed-meth-testing-want-compo

    So private landlords got sucked into the methcon scam and forked out truckloads of their hard earned cash to get their properties cleaned, and chucked their tenants out into the street.

    Now they are crying for compensation from government for their costs.

    No mention of the most likely (to at least civil standard, balance of probability) innocent tenant.

    ” “I think it’s reasonable that they compensate some of the property owners and landlords that have forked out tens of thousands of dollars in order to clean up their property when it wasn’t necessary.”

    Landlords stung by the testing may rally together in a class action if compensation was not on the cards, he said. ”

    Now who would this class action be aimed at, and who would get drawn into it? The most obvious, and correct would be the promotors of the scam, being the testing companies, who will most likely no longer exist. If they try and sue the Crown, as in the current government, then the whole sorry political story will be paraded through the courts, and media.

    Going big on popcorn futures.

    • Rosemary McDonald 11.1
      22 September 2018 at 11:15 am

      No mention so far in this latest media flurry of interest in this issue about the key part my friends at the Misery of Health played.

      Can someone remind us all that the Ministry of Health produced the guidelines that caused this debacle.

    • adam 11.2
      22 September 2018 at 7:26 pm

      This is going to keep hurting national for a long time. As this affected their base and their bottom line – profit.

      • Muttonbird 11.2.1
        22 September 2018 at 7:32 pm

        Graeme asks who the class action should be aimed at. It should be aimed at the National Party and their donors. The are the ones who drove it.

        • Graeme 11.2.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 8:59 pm

          Yeah, the prospect of “property investors” taking National party donors to court will be joy to behold…

          But I think they are just trying for a handout from the current government, and will be told to quietly pull their heads in by their true political masters.

          • Chuck 11.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 9:08 pm

            The meth testing companies will just point to the guidelines set by the Ministry of Health.

            Contrary to some comments here National ministers did not set the guidelines.

            If the current Government thinks tenants should be compensated then so should landlords.

            • Muttonbird 11.2.1.1.1.1
              22 September 2018 at 9:14 pm

              Meth testing companies have all disbanded and crawled back under the rocks from whence they came.

              National ministers used the bogus guidelines in order to pursue their agenda of ridding housing stock of tenants despite being told the guildlines were wrong.

              Landlords should turn to their insurance company if they want recompense and if their insurance company won’t pay then the landlords had the wrong insurance. Better luck next time – personal responsibility and all that.

            • Graeme 11.2.1.1.1.2
              22 September 2018 at 9:58 pm

              “The meth testing companies will just point to the guidelines set by the Ministry of Health.”

              Bullshit

              “In October 2016, RNZ revealed the Health Ministry had repeatedly told HNZ it was misusing the guidelines.

              “The guidelines are very clear – that they are only for use in houses where methamphetamine has been manufactured. We have pointed out (to Housing New Zealand) and communicated that these guidelines are clearly for use in houses where meth has been manufactured,” the Health Ministry’s director, Doctor Stewart Jessamine, said.”

              https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-06-2018/the-great-nz-meth-test-hysteria-how-the-hell-did-we-get-sucked-in/

              The guidelines were effectively set by the meth testing industry through Standards NZ via the Meth Standards Committee https://thestandard.org.nz/national-forgets-it-apologised-for-housing-corp-meth-hysteria/#comment-1527671

              The whole thing was a rort from start to finish with National Party finger prints all over it. there was money to be made from the suckers.

              The only remedies here are a civil case.

  12. joe90 12
    22 September 2018 at 10:20 am

    Scrolling through #WhyIDidntReport , and a couple of things come to mind. There are monsters among us. For far too long, those of us who aren’t have sat on our hands.

  13. greywarshark 13
    22 September 2018 at 10:20 am

    Look – keep an eye on:
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/367026/the-great-kereru-count-has-begun

    and feel sympathy and look for compensation for this man who can only keep one eye on:
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/367029/seafood-company-fined-after-employee-loses-eye

    North Island Mussels Limited has also been ordered to pay repatriation of $60,000 for the incident which happened in January last year.
    In a statement, WorkSafe said the employee had been decanting a cleaning product when a piece of tubing flicked him in the eye.

    “The corrosive product and the impact of the tubing left him with damage so significant that his eye had to be removed. The resulting scarring also meant the victim could not be fitted with a prosthetic eye.”

    The employee should not have been decanting the product in the first place, and said a safer system would have avoided the situation all together, WorkSafe said.

    Is the word ‘repatriation’ instead of, probably, ‘reparation’ a Freudian slip? Does it indicate that this employee is an overseas person on a work permit?

    • cleangreen 14.1
      22 September 2018 at 11:03 am

      Probably cosmetic greywarshark,

      Indonesia makes lots of money exporting to other countries palm oil plant ‘expeller’ feed for stock feed here in NZ as well.

      We have more and more factory farms here now in NZ that rely wholly on palm plant ‘expeller’ feed from that country so they will keep it going just for money.

      http://www.agrifeeds.co.nz/products/dry-feeds/palm-kernel-expeller-pke

      • gsays 14.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 4:37 pm

        Not just factory farms, one of the local dairy farms I did some firewood on has kpe in the troughs at the milking shed.

        • Graeme 14.1.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 9:04 pm

          Also getting a bit of use in the deer industry as supplement for velveting stags. Very high in copper, so other copper supplements (large capsule down the stag’s throat, can get interesting) aren’t required.

  15. Observer Tokoroa 15
    22 September 2018 at 10:50 am

    It would be no loss …

    if the three comedians – Richardson, Hosking and Garner – were to be dragged away from their dull microphones . It is tiresome drivel. Made for fools by fools.

    However, I think we should be highlighting our truly outstanding Comedians.

    Namely, Simon, assisted by the Miss Prissy Collins, and lady Bennett, with Amy as their Maid in waiting.

    Neither national politicians, nor the special Comedians listed above, are aware that the Government of NZ is a Coalition. Each Coalition Caucus is dependent on the other for the life, the drive and success of the Government.

    The Public – excluding the usual Whingers, Landlords, Slave Drivers, Polluters, Denialists, Corporates and Nationalists – is pleased with our Coalition Government.

  16. SaveNZ 16
    22 September 2018 at 11:02 am

    NZ has literally zero protection in it’s current environmental laws because the litigants can just appeal and appeal and just bankrupt the other parties. Even though we have laws that are supposed to stop risks they are ignored and are in conflict with other laws in NZ.

    The government must urgently seek to protect our environment and resources from risky or unknown ventures that seek to plunder (normally for virtually nothing) (water can be just a few hundred dollars to obtain a consent for and then sold on).

    This clean up of risky legislation that allows cart blanche against the environment for short term gain (nobody is making more iron sand) should be clarified and bad laws removed by the Green Party and government.

    Iron mine company appeals High Court decision
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/367033/iron-mine-company-appeals-high-court-decision

    • cleangreen 17.1
      22 September 2018 at 2:17 pm

      Sorry 1080 is toxic full stop.

      Don’t rely on “conservation groups” they are not qualified to represent the toxicology subject surrounding 1080 toxicity.

      Use experts such as Massey University Professor Mike Joy as he has the gold standard of credibility Incognito.

      Read this please everyone and learn.

      http://www.organicexplorer.co.nz/Info/Articles+and+Resources/Kicking+the+HabitNot+the+Hobbit.html

      • Incognito 17.1.1
        22 September 2018 at 5:46 pm

        Sorry 1080 is toxic full stop.

        Of course, 1080 is a plant-based toxin and if it weren’t it wouldn’t be used in pest control.

        Does your “full stop” constitute some kind of scientific argument or does it signify an ideological stance by any chance?

        What are the “conservation groups” that you quote? Your easy dismissal is exactly as mentioned in the article I linked to. Again, does it a constitute a scientific argument?

        I have a lot of respect for Dr Joy’s work but appealing to his authority is still fallacious and does not constitute a scientific argument per se. [NB I cannot see how that link established or proved Dr Joy’s credibility as “the gold standard of credibility” and by which or whose standard]

        I clicked on the link you provided and learned nothing about the use of 1080 in pest control!?

        All in all a rather disappointing response 🙁

      • Koff 17.1.2
        22 September 2018 at 6:42 pm

        Mike Joy is a freshwater ecologist who dismisses the possibility of any danger from 1080 in fresh water

        https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/18-09-2018/separating-fact-from-fiction-in-the-1080-debate/

      • solkta 17.1.3
        22 September 2018 at 7:30 pm

        Could you tell me which paragraph in your link even mentions 1080?

        You are simply a liar as koff’s 17.1.2 link shows. Mike Joy says in that link that 1080 opponents are like climate change deniers in that giving them scientific evidence just seems to make them dig their toes in further.

    • gsays 17.2
      22 September 2018 at 4:43 pm

      Ok article, however it doesn’t address the nature of the death that comes with 1080.

      • Incognito 17.2.1
        22 September 2018 at 5:48 pm

        True that so please debate that if you think that’s important.

        • gsays 17.2.1.1
          22 September 2018 at 9:46 pm

          For me it is simple, cost isn’t a legit argument, there is always enough money, S.C.F. for example.
          The cruel painful death is the pay off for the public and a department that has many priorities and a fixed view through a budget lens.

          I have debated it, but like some topics you don’t get too far.
          Quickly lumped in with the feral extreme of the opponents, accused of having a vested interest or plain abuse.

          Plus enough grey hairs to know: pick your battles.

          • Incognito 17.2.1.1.1
            22 September 2018 at 10:23 pm

            Ok, thank you for replying. I respect your view that any suffering of poisoned animals outweighs economic arguments. However, for me personally, given the current budget and other constraints the question boils down to whether we continue 1080-based pest control or limit to less effective small-scale pest control. It’s war out there in the bush, and not just the bush …

            To use an analogy: is the cure worse than the disease?

  18. Dukeofurl 18
    22 September 2018 at 12:53 pm

    Interesting Court result over a ban on new oil/gas drilling in Victoria Australia

    “A company part-owned by mining magnate Gina Rinehart has lost its $2.7 billion court case against the Victorian government over the state’s ban on gas exploration.

    The Supreme Court in Melbourne on Friday rejected claims by oil and gas company Lakes Oil that the government’s state-wide moratorium on “onshore petroleum” exploration was unlawful.

    Lakes Oil was seeking damages for $92 million it had already spent, plus more than $2.6 billion in lost future earnings, after being prevented by the ban from using six permits it owned to explore for gas in Gippsland and the state’s south-west.’

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/rinehart-s-2-7-billion-court-case-against-victoria-rejected-20180921-p505b2.html

    It seemed they had existing exploration permits but that might mean in the NZ context that they were ‘prospecting’ permits

  19. SaveNZ 19
    22 September 2018 at 2:31 pm

    Lets stop being dirty Kiwis, ban the bag and also make the retailer and manufacturer have to collect their packaging to be disposed off if it is not recyclable, aka those still using polystyrene, plastic drink bottles and cartons instead of glass etc have to dispose of it or pay a ‘pollution’ fee to the government.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018663611/new-zealand-dumping-plastic-in-malaysia-after-china-ban

  20. Ed 20
    22 September 2018 at 3:53 pm

    Bomber hits the nail on the head.

    On the same day NZ Herald profiles China threatening academic, they run Chinese propaganda.

    On the same day the NZ Herald profiles possible illegal Chinese break in and intimidation of an academic who highlighted Chinese influence in our politics…

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12127928

    …they are also running propaganda for China…

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/peoples-daily-online/news/article.cfm?c_id=1504576&objectid=12127975

    …priceless.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/09/22/on-the-same-day-nz-herald-profiles-china-threatening-academic-they-run-chinese-propaganda/

  21. Muttonbird 21
    22 September 2018 at 4:09 pm

    Oh dear. Free speech warrior Jordan Peterson doesn’t like it when others…errr…speak freely.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/09/professor-jordan-peterson-threatens-to-sue-after-critic-calls-him-misogynist.html

    Is he a misogynist? Well, watch this video, particularly at 1:40, and tell me there isn’t a level of malevolence toward women…

  22. joe90 22
    22 September 2018 at 4:23 pm

    Ya gotta love US attack ads.

  23. Muttonbird 23
    22 September 2018 at 8:23 pm

    Just had a quick convo with the very apolitical and perhaps naturally right leaning Mrs MB and she is fully behind JA and wonders what the hell Mike Hosking is on about in the mornings.

    She says JA is a new mother, a new PM and has had a massive amount thrown at her in the last 12 months and people should just let her get on with it. She says JA has heart and soul and we should see where that takes us as a nation for a while.

    Never heard Mrs MB speak this way about politics so it’s a good sign that women are switching on to Ardern in numbers and a sign they switch on more whenever Hosking and Farrar types try to attack her.

    I reckon one year in the momentum is just starting to be felt. The rubber is hitting the road as it were and good times are ahead for the socially conscious. Naturally that means bad times for the greedy and corrupt.

  24. Morrissey 24
    22 September 2018 at 9:00 pm

    The bizarre and untruthful smears are also afflicting Canadians.

  25. Logie97 25
    22 September 2018 at 10:54 pm

    For years now we have had the right opining on the fall of standards and our lazy work force. A regular meme of small employers and the self employed in their blokey sports club discussions.

    Many of those same self employed and small time employers have radios playing talk back on their factory floor or job site.

    Of course it is not possible to be giving 100 percent attention to your client (builder, mechanic, hairdresser) whilst being distracted by these totally non productive opinionated talkback hosts? ( Wouldn’t have been able to do that in my day. Musak was the only acceptable background workplace sounds – designed,in fact, to increase productivity. )

    And imagine the impact on the nation’s “opinion shapers” if they were switched off in the work place.

    Hosking / Smith / Williams / Devlin / Garner / Sainsbury/ et al. They would have to get real jobs and possibly be productive.

    Who’d have thought …

  26. Jenny 26
    23 September 2018 at 12:51 am

    How do we explain the rise of climate deniers, holocaust deniers, Assad supporters, Trump voters.

    Flat Earthers provide some clues:

    I Watched an Entire Flat Earth Convention — Here’s What I Learned
    Harry T Dyer – Lecturer in Education, University of East Anglia, May 8, 2018

    …..In many ways, a public meeting of flat earthers is a product and sign of our time; a reflection of our increasing distrust in scientific institutions, and the moves by power-holding institutions towards populism and emotions. In much the same way that Foucault reflected on what social outcasts could reveal about our social systems, there is a lot flat earthers can reveal to us about the current changing relationship between power and knowledge…..

    …..While flat earthers seem to trust and support scientific methods, what they don’t trust is scientists, and the established relationships between “power” and “knowledge”. This relationship between power and knowledge has long been theorised by sociologists. By exploring this relationship, we can begin to understand why there is a swelling resurgence of flat earthers….

    …… The level of discussion however often did not revolve around the models on offer, but on broader issues of attitudes towards existing structures of knowledge, and the institutions that supported and presented these models….

    …..Flat earthers and populism
    At the same time as scientific claims to knowledge and power are being undermined, some power structures are decoupling themselves from scientific knowledge, moving towards a kind of populist politics that are increasingly skeptical of knowledge. This has, in recent years, manifested itself in extreme ways – through such things as public politicians showing support for Pizzagate or Trump’s suggestions that Ted Cruz’s father shot JFK.

    But this can also be seen in more subtle and insidious form in the way in which Brexit, for example, was campaigned for in terms of gut feelings and emotions rather than expert statistics and predictions. Science is increasingly facing problems with its ability to communicate ideas publicly, a problem that politicians, and flat earthers, are able to circumvent with moves towards populism…..

  27. corodale 27
    23 September 2018 at 2:15 am

    Someone wants war in Iran

    25 people were killed and 60 were injured in the Saturday morning attack by al-Ahwaziyeh terrorist group during the nationwide military parades in Iran’s Southwestern city of Ahwaz. (They captured one of the four attackers alive. Oh dear.)

    http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13970631000484

  28. eco maori 28
    23 September 2018 at 9:23 am

    Kia ora R&R being a new Kiwi to me is when you have been granted residency and intend to respect all other cultures and values that We Kiwi’s have equality environmentally conscious . One does not come here in the year’s 2018 and use one power money to change our society to your Ideals this type off person can stay out of Aotearoa .
    All Kiwis will shape our kiwi cultures not just the wealthy for the wealthy we can shape our society into a happy healthy society for all kiwis respect thy neighbour we are a multi cultured society the kiwi culture need’s to drop the bingh booze culture
    Ka kite ano

  29. eco maori 29
    23 September 2018 at 9:43 am

    Kia ora Te Hui with the ear phones issue some people let there discrimination dominate there action’s and they never back down till they have to it show Eco that some people can turn anything small into a big issue . Kia kaha to te tangata whenua couple for standing up to that school’s chair person’s bad bulling raciest behaviour .
    Ka kite ano

  30. eco maori 30
    23 September 2018 at 10:17 am

    That’s the way Marae evidence based information on the conditions of our native bush Manuga and wild life I have already put my opinion up on the subject .
    What makes me laugh is national put’s up a plan to eliminate pest at the same time they have been starving DOC of vital funding for the last 9 year’s that was desperately needed what does one call that hokes vote grabbing Ka kite ano

  31. eco maori 31
    23 September 2018 at 11:26 am

    I have just got off the phone to my whano back home in Te Taiwhiti it sounds like a lot of dumb stuff has been going down .
    Now let me tell you this OUR tipuna were not dumb and they did not do dumb stuff that bring’s shame on all Tangata whenua think about te mokopuna’s future before you do dumb stuff.
    DOC staff are just trying to look after Papatuanuku and her Creatures DONT GO THREATING ANYONE FULL STOP just because you have a different opinion.
    OUR tipuna only went to WAR after all other avenues were looked at . IE stop fighting and be calm and talk . Ka kite ano

  32. eco maori 32
    23 September 2018 at 11:48 am

    Three Little Birds

  33. eco maori 33
    23 September 2018 at 12:03 pm

    Positive Vibrations

  34. eco maori 34
    23 September 2018 at 2:21 pm

    These sandfly’s will manufacture tar and put it through there spinning machine and try and blame Eco Maori for anything they can get there crooked hand’s on these people let there deep discriminatory behavior control there actions what else can explain this stupid man hunt I will only take blame for my action’s as I do not control anyone else.
    Ka kite ano Muppet Puppets .P.S I know that you have strings attached to people who have been in the justice system

  35. eco maori 35
    23 September 2018 at 5:09 pm

    I enjoy it when neo librail capitalist lose out on there power grab especial when they use there stolen power to distort our democracy rupert murdoch failed bid to take over Sky Europe link is below ka kite ano P.S I gave another wealthy m8 of shonkys a serve yesterday ana to kai

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/107306228/comcast-beats-fox-in-sky-auction-with-nz58-billion-bid

  36. eco maori 36
    23 September 2018 at 5:48 pm

    Eco get’s —–off when I see story’s about how meat has the most amount of water than any other prouduct .
    When I know that the people who do the research are using farm’s that are growing the stocks feed under intense irrigation in a real dry climate every input to prouduce that meat is 10x as much as it takes in a mild climate that does not need irrigation.
    The way we farm is 10x better than most places on Papatuanuku .
    The lab meat well someone can invent anything they still have to prove that its safe and get us to buy it.
    If that get’s hold one would never be able to grow your own meat link is below ka kite ano

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lab-grown-meat/

  37. eco maori 37
    23 September 2018 at 6:34 pm

    Kia ora Newshub why not start a social media donation page that could fund half the bounty payed for pest and the other half the crown pay’s I would donate money for that cause of saving our bush and native wild life many ways to skin a possum.
    pence you should be ashamed at the mess your boss is making in America and around the world bow you head in shame .Does he realise that we know what is stuffing the world up in 2018 we know .
    That’s cool a walk in support of a mostly elderly disease alzheimer’s ka pai I had a client who for got everything in 5 minutes.
    He even forgot he had payed me all the time no matter Eco does not do dumb unethical stuff.
    He is a nice guy I had to use the loo his ride turned up he left me in his house and close the door he trust me I spent more time talking to him than it took to mow his lawns. Ka kite ano .