Open Mike 23/06/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 23rd, 2017 - 144 comments
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144 comments on “Open Mike 23/06/2017”

  1. lprent 1

    Test comment to check that they are now possible.

    A flag got flipped

  2. Craig H 2

    Just checking – is there a reason for some of the topics requiring logging in to reply?

    • lprent 2.1

      Depends what you mean. There was a general stoppage of comments last night by accident. In the post edit screen there is a button to moderate comments for that post.

      //=====

      In the discussion settings screen there is a setting to require that only logged in users are able to comment. This is used by some sites who want to restrict comment writing access. Kiwiblog is probably the most noticeable.

      We use different techniques which tend to allow a wider and less selective participation.

      However, the setting screen used when banning commenters, and releasing them from bans. Which is a bit of a nuisance as the toggle gets hit by accident and turned on. Especially by overly sensitive touchpad clickareas. It has happened a few times over the last decade.

      When I get my machines set up again (just moving apartments), I’ll get the style sheet to hide the button.

      //=====

      If you mean that certain posts get full moderation (ie they must be released by a moderator). That happens occasionally, and usually on guest posts from politicians or posts about client change or ones that outrage misogynist idiots. That is to reduce the workload on moderators cleaning up after children who can’t behave with any degree of decorum

      //=============

      Could you please try to be more precise when asking questions. My toleration for wide open diffuse questions is pretty limited.

      • Craig H 2.1.1

        Sorry, some of the new topics today require a commenter to be logged in with WordPress to be able to comment. I think that’s the first of the two options you provided.

  3. Ed1 3

    Bill English says we need to concentrate on important issues likes jobs and incomes and prospects (Morning Report this morning: http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201848564/barclay-saga-threatens-to-overshadow-national-party-conference ) – but then we hear that at the National Party conference there will be no policy announcements. Surely he isn’t trying to distract us from something else!

    Nice to know that after all this time Bill English at last thinks its time to concentrate on jobs and incomes . . .

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      Nice to know that after all this time Bill English at last thinks its time to concentrate on jobs and incomes . . .

      About the only thing in those he would be concerned with would be the wages and how to lower them to ‘make us more competitive’. One way to do that is to import people to fill job slots.

  4. Penny Bright 4

    Enough semi-hysteria and hyperbole over the so-called Labour Party ‘student intern scandal’?

    Let’s have some proper investigation based upon FACTS, EVIDENCE and the underpinning LAW?

    1) What exactly were these student ‘interns’ offered?

    2) What exactly did these student ‘interns’ receive?

    3) What exactly is the law covering immigration and ’employment’ in these circumstances?

    4) Where exactly has the law been breached (if it has?)

    Penny Bright

    2017 Independent candidate for Tamaki.

    Exposing the $1.6 billion Tamaki ‘Regeneration’ – GENTRIFICATION $CAM.

  5. Jenny Kirk 5

    Read this story in the Herald, Penny Bright, and get a corrected version on the overseas student “interns” story.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11880781

    • james 5.1

      So Jenny – whats makes this version a ‘corrected version’ as opposed to the others stories?

      Because this one makes labour look less bad and you are biased as heck?

      • Red Blooded 5.1.1

        Oh James, how lovely to see you back, I was very concerned we hadn’t seen you commenting during the whole Barclay alleged breaking the law affair, but glad to see you back now commenting on a volunteer intern scheme (possibly blown up by a disgruntled wine thief).
        Biased as heck???? Pot… kettle….

        • james 5.1.1.1

          Its because Im out of the country and only online a little. Glad to hear you missed me.

          Re Barclay – the guys and idiot and gets everything he deserves. English was an idiot on the way he handled it. Other than that I havnt read too much on it – Enjoying the sun too much.

      • You_Fool 5.1.2

        Because there appears to be one story saying it is all labours fault and multiple stories saying it was a cock up by the Change campaign after the people involved left labour to run the campaign that labour is now fixing because of the perceived connections.

        Also now there are more stories which are disputing the “all volunteers/students feel ripped off” story line, and it looks like it was between 5-10 people who had a bit of a beef with the organisation

      • reason 5.1.3

        It’s election time …. and our media becomes dirty mis-informers….. just like last election….. and the one before that….

        Although not popular here, Martyn Bradbury credibly dismantles this dirty media manufactured bullshit.

        . https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/06/23/why-the-labour-party-student-intern-scandal-is-a-smear/

        “I was out to the Marae 2 weeks ago having a look around at what they were doing. I had a meal with them, talked with some of the volunteers. They were fantastic young people who were loving the adventure of it all.”

        “Firstly, let’s be clear of the timeline here. Bryce Edwards had mentioned this program 20 days ago on June 1st… …”another type of resource is being utilised by the Labour Party this election – comrades from the US and UK. The party is currently importing dozens of young leftwing activists who are staying at an Auckland Marae”,”

        “…and Bryce’s mention was after a news story on the 20th of April – a full month ago, where Hone was attacking Labour for doing this. ”

        “The spluttering shock and hyperventilation of the corporate media at a story that is over a month old right when English was getting screwed seems remarkably good timing for National.”

        “The perception of political hypocrisy is a mainstream media generated one, …”

        With this first electioneering shot from our pro-nat media …. the only thing missing is Dong Liu

  6. Ethica 6

    I wonder how many foreign students are helping with the National Party campaign? I doubt they have many volunteers so another question is, are they being paid by the taxpayer via Parliamentary Services?

    • james 6.1

      First you have to establish if there are any.

    • Savenz 6.2

      Probably more foreign donations or ‘sweet’ deals u want to look for. Lucky with Skycity & 0 tax havens laundering conditions r favourable for the Natz.

    • You_Fool 7.1

      Other than it was uploaded by NewShrub… any clue if that is a real document and who wrote it?

      • mauī 7.1.1

        Most likely by a gutter hog or a reverse young Nat an Old Nat.

        • You_Fool 7.1.1.1

          So looks like it was a wish list made by the change programme when asked by unions to provide a plan to get them to provide funding. A wishlist which never made it into a real plan nor proposal, nor appears to have been approved by anyone, and no statement from anyone on if it is actually real… so basically garbage

      • Chuck 7.1.2

        According to the General Secretary of the Labour Party, Andrew Kirton it was Matt McCarten and his Auckland Labour party side kicks that wrote it.

    • The Chairman 7.2

      Was that leaked?

  7. gsays 8

    At the risk of kicking a hornets nest:
    In the context of change the government, the common refrain is a vote for anyone other than Labour/green is a wasted vote/or a vote for national….

    I am of the opinion that if I vote for a minor party that is to the left of labour, and national govern again after the election, then labour weren’t ready to be an alternative government.
    Labour may need another period of time in opposition to get it to move ‘left’. Especially if it looses votes to the ‘left/non neo-liberal’ parties.

    The old left right paradigm may not be relevant any more.
    I forget who put the theory up about there being a triangular aspect to politics (left, right, not neo-liberal) but having an option of a non neo liberal party really appeals.

    • Savenz 8.1

      There is greens & mana on the left.
      Labour is a liberal centre party that’s gonna go in the direction voters indicate in elections. If it’s greens & mana it will push labour left. If it’s national it will push them right, if it’s nzfirst it will push them conservative centre. So if u r a leftie & for some inexplicable Reason U don’t vote, u r the ones pushing the parties right. Don’t whine about the middle class, rich & corporations and how to blame they r next election if u don’t vote, blame yourself!

      • Savenz 8.1.1

        Also my guess is it’s last chances for the public to choose a different future, because at the rate of state house sell offs , rising rents & lowering wages & asset sales from the national party and their grab of power across the state sectors, the poor are being socially cleansed.

        The cost of houses of over 1 million in Auckland and the price of rents rising & prices spreading rapidly ( just saw a do up 90m2 villa in arrow town for 1.1million).

        Even if u don’t live in Auckland the social cleansing & immigration practices going on will generate votes for the national party, giving them a long term advantage in ongoing elections. Auckland is 1/3 of the vote apparently.

        If u care, vote now.

    • weka 8.2

      so vote Green. The problem is lefties voting Mana or TOP and those votes being wasted if Mana don’t gain TTT and TOP don’t get to 5%. That’s a gift to National.

      • Savenz 8.2.1

        Yep agree with weka, best bet greens or labour dep on where u sit. Safest way to change the government.

      • gsays 8.2.2

        Sorry, I am away from my fone for the rest of the day.
        That is my point, my vote isn’t wasted, rather it is invested.
        If Labour lose this election but shift profoundly left/non neo-liberal for the next cycle.

        Probably the other vibe I want to articulate is: is a Labour government that much of a change?

        • Savenz 8.2.2.1

          Gsays the message u send to labour is the opposite. If people r voting for the right political parties only – it’s sending all the left parties to the right because that is what the voters r telling them to do.

          In my view that has been nationals biggest dirty politic propagating the message that labour is national. So don’t bother voting.

          That’s the national tactic to vulnerable people. Don’t bother voting.

          Voters need to send a message back to national – I reject your policy by voting against them.

          • weka 8.2.2.1.1

            yes. Also the people that criticise the Greens for not being more radical or left than they are but who haven’t been voting for them, well that’s why the Greens have become more mainstream. If there was a viable party further on the left I would agree with voting for them, but there really isn’t. Voting Mana or TOP as a protest vote will have very little effect on Labour or the Greens (if it was going to move them left it would have already).

        • weka 8.2.2.2

          “If Labour lose this election but shift profoundly left/non neo-liberal for the next cycle.”

          Yes, that’s the bet. But it’s a risk IMO. A few % to Mana or TOP isn’t going to change Labour’s mind if they lose but it might cause them to lose. Little will probably be replaced as leader. What more left wing MP is there to take his place?

          And why not just vote Green who are to the left of Labour already? To me your argument is very FPP. It’s not about Labour losing the election, it’s about the parliamentary left as a whole. I hope Harawira wins TTT and that Mana get another crack at parliament, but they don’t need left wing party votes to do that. They blew it at the last election, so it’s on them to rebuild over time if they want more MPs.

          TOP aren’t left wing and are basically capitalism with more social justice than we have now so long as it’s framed in economics (that’s neoliberal imo).

          “Probably the other vibe I want to articulate is: is a Labour government that much of a change?”

          That one irks. For one, it won’t be a Labour govt. It will be a L/G govt or a L/G/NZF govt or a L/NZF one. That alone is a bloody good reason to vote Labour or Green. Best thing for the left right now is a L/G govt that doesn’t need Peters. In order for that to happen we need more people voting Labour or Green not less.

          The other aspect is that if you compare policy Labour are very different to National in ways that impact directly on people and the country as a whole. Add in Green policy and on almost every area you can name a L/G govt would be substantially different to National. It beggars belief that we are still arguing about this on the left, are people not reading actual policy? If you want to understand the difference, have a look at water, welfare, and housing. It’s glaring.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.2.2.2.1

            +111

          • gsays 8.2.2.2.2

            hi weka,
            i can see we aren’t gonna see eye to eye on this.
            mana blowing it last election is a point of view, the internet thing didn’t help.
            i do feel labour did not help at all either, which is form for them and the way they can treat parties to the left of them.

            “Probably the other vibe I want to articulate is: is a Labour government that much of a change?”

            i certainly accept labour and national have differing polices, but as you and bill and others have pointed out, we need RADICAL changes to the way we live.
            electric cars and vegetarian tuesdays isn’t gonna save our bacon.
            labour will still be beholden to the status quo and lobbyists.
            fair enough labour/green govt will help some of those that need it most.
            labour, green, and 2,3,4 mana mps will be even better for the disadvantaged.
            cheers for your input. hopefully the feathers arent too ruffled.

        • Savenz 8.2.2.3

          Also ‘investing’ your vote is something a neoliberal day trader would think of.

          Have u by chance, had something pop into your social media accounts? Because I heard that’s how trump won.

          data mining social media & sending individualised fear messages to voters. Ie Hillary Clinton thinks black men r predators to Black voters to make them not vote.

          • gsays 8.2.2.3.1

            hi save, cheers for yr responses.
            kinda hard to have a nuanced conversation, via text only, hours between responses.
            believe it or not the standard is my social media.
            no facebook, if you are on facebook you are not the customer you are the product.
            no instantgram or twitter.
            ts, rnz and stuff for the odd sports story/result is the limit cyber wise.
            much rather engage with people in the flesh.
            i am aware of trumps team use of targetted facebook posts, brilliant and dastardly use of a tool.
            i think at the heart of this is i resent the implication that i must vote with the crowd.
            mana last time round resonated with me.

        • McFlock 8.2.2.4

          Labour might think “oh gee, we’d better try nationalising everything as a policy because nobody is voting for us now”, but you know there will be loads of advice to “just go a little bit lmore like national to capture the middle ground”.

          As investments go, that one’s pretty high risk. You might waste money on sports betting, but it’s not really an “investment”.

          And I genuinely think that at least a labgrn government will improve the lives of thousands of people, even if it won’t bring about the revolution. I for one support the idea of less homeless people, but in a “give them homes and support” way, not a “move them out of my sight” way.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3

      I forget who put the theory up about there being a triangular aspect to politics (left, right, not neo-liberal) but having an option of a non neo liberal party really appeals.

      I think those three would be: Left, Right, Not Capitalist

      Going Left or Right while maintaining capitalism maintains all the problems of the status quo. Although, going Left is more likely to lead to the removal of capitalism.

  8. Corokia 9

    Just wondering what others think of the idea of foreign (mostly US) people campaigning for Labour? Would kiwis respond positively to someone flown in from another country telling them how to vote? I don’t think it’s a very good idea.

    • Savenz 9.1

      Not a good idea. People want a break from globalism esp those not doing so well.

      • lprent 9.1.1

        Over the years, I’ve seen a lot of activists heading to Aussie, UK, and US as volunteers in their elections. Plus quite a few who have acted as observers in elections all around the world. I have also seen small numbers of overseas volunteers coming here.

        It is a way to transfer information about different electoral systems and the way that campaigns and elections are run – for better or for worse.

        For instance, explaining the nuances of MMP campaigns to overseas volunteers has been a private amusement for quite a while. Always nice when you can see the light of understanding in their eyes.

        Update: I see that Anne said much the same thing further down.

      • Carolyn_nth 9.1.2

        What you refer to as globalism, is basically globalisation by and for the wealthy and corporates. They have their wealthy international think tanks, Bildeberg groups and other networks.

        The best way to combat this internationalisation of the power of the elites, is to work collaboratively with other less powerful individuals and groups across countries. Pulling up the draw bridge, and isolating the less well off in individual countries, will be no defense against the international reach of the powerful and wealthy elites.

    • Anne 9.2

      This scheme has been operating for some 20 plus years and political parties of all persuasions do it. Kiwis have gone to America, to Aussie, to England. Americans have gone to England, to Aussie and now to NZ. Aussies have gone to… and on it goes.

      It’s an excellent way for young people of like mind to meet their counterparts in other countries and gain experience along the way.

      What a closed mind you and other detractors must have.

      • The Chairman 9.2.1

        One could argue Labour were being closed minded for failing to consider the negative reaction some would have to their use of foreign volunteers.

        • greywarshark 9.2.1.1

          TC
          It’s hard to try and move forward when having to drag a concrete Noah’s Ark from your left leg full of survival animals who can’t think anything different than what they’ve always had without squawking in fright.

      • Molly 9.2.2

        I don’t have a problem with it being a resource, I just think that Labour needs to get our young people politically motivated as a priority.

        While overseas volunteer supporters of like minded parties may look forward to coming over and having the experience. It is not necessarily true that the policies of similar positioned parties are the same. They have a lot of trust that the campaign they are working on follows their values until they get here. They are also unaware of any of the political happenings in the last three years for NZ, where US and UK politics can be easily followed on this side of the world.

        A non-partisan encouragement of young people, presenting the overriding issues and looking for comprehensive solutions would be a great vehicle to get this started. If Labour and the Greens were involved, they would have to place trust in NZers that once they are informed, they would no longer accept trite assurances from Ministers and media that everything is hunky-dory. But the pay-off would most likely benefit those parties involved, and the left side of NZ politics as a whole. When people work together successfully, they are more inclined to view the wider community as their responsibility and with care.

        • Anne 9.2.2.1

          I don’t have a problem with it being a resource, I just think that Labour needs to get our young people politically motivated as a priority.

          Which is exactly what has been happening under the radar for some time Molly. I have noticed the increasing number of young people who have joined the Labour Party in recent years. It has almost seemed like a revival of the Norman Kirk years when many young people – including me – were motivated to join Labour.

          A few weeks ago I attended a public meeting in Glenfield, Auckland which had been called to discuss the local housing crisis. There were several guest speakers including Phil Twyford. I was surprised to see there were an equal number of young people present as there were older people.

          Oh and for the detractors, many of those young people present were not members of the Labour Party, but who chose to attend because they were interested to hear what Phil Twford had to tell them.

          • Molly 9.2.2.1.1

            “Which is exactly what has been happening under the radar for some time Molly. I have noticed the increasing number of young people who have joined the Labour Party in recent years. It has almost seemed like a revival of the Norman Kirk years when many young people – including me – were motivated to join Labour.”
            Thanks Anne. Always interested to hear from someone who knows the history and current position of Labour, as opposed to those who view it from an outside perspective.

            A couple of questions, for clarity rather than inquisition:

            1. Why is it under the radar? Is that a resources issue, a failure to see future value, or an intended choice?

            2. There is a difference between motivating the young to get involved in politics – and getting the young involved in party politics.

            I’m thinking that the resurgence in youth politics in Scotland and the UK, has been instigated by the Scottish referendum (and all the non-partisan grassroots community meetings held in support and against) and the Brexit referendum.

            I would love to see a true initiative to get the youth electorate voting – regardless of party.
            This would require the parties on the left to work together and would require them to have a lot of trust in the electorate, but would pay dividends on election day to the benefit of the left opposition.

            Not only does it show how like minded parties can work together for the benefit of the public, it shows how valuable political engagement and knowledge can be. Once awakened, that skill and judgement will be deployed over the course of their voting lives. Political commentators and politicians will be working with a voting public that has the skills to more keenly judge media reports and obfuscations.

            I was hoping the internship was something along these lines, but it doesn’t appear to have been in it’s current form.

            • lprent 9.2.2.1.1.1

              Why is it under the radar?

              Because it is fundamentally about people going somewhere to learn how others political systems operate by getting involved in them. It isn’t about making continuous press releases or a big deal about it.

              The media will have known about these kinds of programmes for a long time. They really aren’t news – well at least not until National’s spinners like Hooten and Farrar need a diversionary story and someone is found to provide kernel of it.

              • Molly

                The question was more about how to make it known to the youth in NZ, so they can intern, rather than the media for commentary. (In particular, youth not currently aligned with the Labour party).

                As for the internship initiative, given the quality and depth of the reporting, it seems the typical “sound and fury, signifying nothing” distraction.

                • Anne

                  Hi Molly. I wasn’t being critical of your comment @ 9.2.2

                  Just wanted to let you know Labour are doing what they can to get the youth to take part in politics. And of course the Greens are doing like-wise. I also believe the young are coming to recognise their futures don’t look too bright under the current regime. They have every reason to worry about their ability to ever have a home of their own, and of course Climate Change [rightly] hangs heavy on their minds. It wouldn’t surprise me if they are starting to look seriously at wanting a change of regime in NZ.

      • corokia 9.2.3

        “What a closed mind you and other detractors must have.”

        Wow- what a nasty response to a question imagining how kiwis might respond to doorknocking by American interns.

        If that’s an example of how a Labour Party Aucklander replies to a genuine question, glad I’m a Southern Greenie.

        [lprent: What a delicate wee lazy flower you must be. Read the policy – especially that about robust debate.

        Learn not to make simpleminded presumptions about others nor to try to use a typical troll ‘victim’ act. Because I really don’t like lazy fuckwits like you who try to impose your obnoxious rules on this site. That is my and the moderator’s job. We don’t pass it out to opinionated idiots like you. If I see you try it again, I will amend your behaviour with a sudden permanent ban for violating the rules of this site.

        This is your warning. ]

        • Draco T Bastard 9.2.3.1

          Wow- what a nasty response to a question imagining how kiwis might respond to doorknocking by American interns.

          Highlighting that it’s been going on for 20+ years and has never had an issue is nasty?

          Or was it that you got your closed mind pointed out that hurt?

          There are benefits to such exchanges as has been pointed out.

        • corokia 9.2.3.2

          Sorry, warning taken on board. I really wasn’t meaning to impose any rules and, yeah, being a bit sensitive about the closed mind bit. Haven’t been commenting for a while, need to toughen up.
          I’ve been involved with overseas volunteers on local revegetation projects, they’ve been great. All I had heard about re the ones this week was about them campaigning/door knocking for Labour and I wondered how that would work out. Now I know more about this type of thing thanks to the other comments.

      • Graeme 9.2.4

        I’ve noticed a lot of interest in our political culture from some of the Americans I interact with at the gallery. They are intrigued that we have a much more constructive political conversation than they are used to. Several have asked about internships. From where I’m seeing it, it’s not surprising that this got overwhelmed with interest. Tis’ a bugga being popular…

        This item on NBC sort of touches on it and explains a lot of how we are place du jour in America right now

        http://www.nbcnews.com/megyn-kelly/video/the-americans-are-coming-the-obsession-with-new-zealand-970813507783

    • The Chairman 9.3

      It wasn’t the best idea. Yet, it seems Labour gave this little consideration.

      In fact, they didn’t even clear the legality of it, which should have been one of the first things to do. Moreover, they are carrying on with it while it is still unclear.

      This won’t inspire voter confidence in their ability to run the country.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.4

      Would kiwis respond positively to someone flown in from another country telling them how to vote?

      They may do. Depends upon the Kiwi and their understanding of the way similar parties cooperate across the globe.

    • Stuart Munro 9.5

      I’m not a fan – in principle parties should cultivate a local activist or volunteer base.

      It may not be illegal but it’s going to cost a couple of points. Looks to me like some middle echelons wanted an entry to the lucrative US political job market.

    • Peter 9.6

      Corokia
      That’s a very good point.

  9. weka 10

    POLL: Does the Labour Party look like a government-in-waiting?

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/newshub/2017/06/poll–does-the-labour-party-look-like-a-government-in-waiting-.html

    Currently 66% say yes. Heh.

    • Halfcrown 10.1

      Garner and that other odious prick held a poll on the AM show this morning asking if the Labour migrant scandal was of more concern than the Barclay affair That odious bit of shit was using terminology like slave ships slave labour etc and Garner in his usual style was reading out the most blatant rightwing crap people supposedly was writing in. with the usual discussions that Labour was not beyond redemption if they change their leader etc etc ad nauseam
      That odious prick was most upset when at the last time I saw it more people were concerned about the Barclay affair than Labours. Also it was delightful to see Ardern put hysterical Benefit well and truly in her place.
      Has anyone seen the whole morning programme and what was the result of the biased poll they had. because I think people are beginning to wake up the shit by the Garners, Gowers Hoskins and Johnny come lately odious Mark whatever his surname is.

      • You_Fool 10.1.1

        It is Mark Richarsoaaaaaaaaaggggggghhhhhhhhhh

      • weka 10.1.2

        When I looked earlier it was something like 51% said Barclay/English was worse. Which is pretty good given the bias it was presented with.

      • bwaghorn 10.1.3

        did you see how Ardern had garner eating out of her hand and saying that labour had acting in the right way as opposed to the nats spending a year lying and such.

        here that you nat scum the truth will set you free

    • The Chairman 10.2

      If it wasn’t for this botched intern scheme the support for Labour could have possibly been higher.

      • weka 10.2.1

        If it wasn’t for lefties running round bashing Labour it could possibly have been higher.

        • Halfcrown 10.2.1.1

          +100%

          • Savenz 10.2.1.1.1

            I haven’t not bothered reading about this labour intern issue, sounds more to me like a msm distraction to drum up, now that national are on the rocks with Barclay etc

            Why bother biting?

            • weka 10.2.1.1.1.1

              There’s a need to push back a bit because the dirty politics on this is strong enough to undermine the left.

        • The Chairman 10.2.1.2

          If it wasn’t for Labour messing up, there be no bashing from the left. They bring it upon themselves.

          Moreover, if we don’t hold them to account, we can’t expect them to improve.

          One hopes more isn’t revealed or develops.

          • weka 10.2.1.2.1

            No-one brings bashing upon themselves. Bashing is different from holding to account.

            “If it wasn’t for Labour messing up, there be no bashing from the left.”

            Obviously. But we’re all humans here and all of us make mistakes. I’m far more interested in how we handle those mistakes than in everyone having to be perfect and never make any. As far as I can tell Little fronted up well on this and Labour are doing the work to sort out the actual problem not just the perceived political one.

            It’s time to change the government. Your own incessantly negative approach appears to work against that.

            • The Chairman 10.2.1.2.1.1

              “No-one brings bashing upon themselves”.

              Perhaps not willingly, but evidently, they do.

              “I’m far more interested in how we handle those mistakes”

              Indeed, it’s the putting right that counts. Many mess up, not many put it right.

              However, in this instance the putting right looks as if it may unravel. I’m concerned Labour are starting to dig a larger hole.

              As highlighted, sorting out the legality should be a priority. The media will have a field day with Labour continuing on if it turns out to be illegal. Therefore, this could potentially get far worse.

              There is even paperwork bringing their excuse (it was over subscribed) into question.

              Labour have been round long enough to know how the game is played, yet they aren’t playing too well, hence we’ve got to keep their feet to the fire.

        • Anne 10.2.1.3

          Thanks weka @10.2.1 So true.

      • Molly 10.2.2

        It doesn’t looked botched.

        The media coverage was light on background, balance, presented as a “gotcha” and picked up a few willing commentators ready to be outraged.

        Count yourself among them.

        • The Chairman 10.2.2.1

          “It doesn’t looked botched.”

          Rubbish. They don’t even know if it’s legal, yet they are carrying on regardless.

          Lowering the bar and making excuses won’t encourage them to up their game.

          If we want Labour to move left and improve, we are going to have to hold their feet to the fire.

          • weka 10.2.2.1.1

            That’s a pretty ugly metaphor, but useful to know that you think people asked to be damaged and that damaging people is warranted. Including natural allies.

            • The Chairman 10.2.2.1.1.1

              I didn’t say people ask to be damage. However, of course people will get flak when they mess up.

              Would you rather we lower the bar and allow them to get away with it?

              • weka

                “Would you rather we lower the bar and allow them to get away with it?”

                You’re really not listening to what I am saying. Critique good, bash bad.

          • Halfcrown 10.2.2.1.2

            “They don’t even know if it’s legal,”

            That my friend is being promoted by the media because what their delightful obnoxious character Toddy did was CRIMINAL

            Say it enough times and it will become Labour does it too

            • weka 10.2.2.1.2.1

              And as Foxy pointed out on twitter, “When you are running the same line as Matthew Hooton you need to check yourself.”

              • lprent

                It has been raised by government ministers. Of course Labour is now going to do due diligence..

                But it’d be interesting if National are willing to extend this kind of scrutiny to all volunteers who are housed on a Marae. I’m sure that the Maori Party will want a say in that. Or Lions and Rotary who also have widespread international volunteer program. Or churches. Or…. whatever – you may understand the point.

                Not to mention kiwis going offshore to do things like VSA, or the volunteers that DOC uses.

                • The Chairman

                  “Of course Labour is now going to do due diligence..”

                  Having a political party associated to an illegal act (not that it has yet been established) isn’t a good look, therefore this should have been cleared up from the get go.

              • Halfcrown

                To The Chairman @ 12.52 pm

                No that is wrong and you are quoting The Hub of all places as a reliable source, you must be joking

                Garner kept trying to put words into Kirton’s mouth and kept repeating “does that mean you don’t’ know if you have broken the law yet is that what you are saying”, to which Kirton replied “Oh look I don’t actually but that doesn’t mean anything really and I am focussing on the welfare of these volunteers.” which was more or less repeated a little later by Arderne “I wouldn’t know enough about the explicit rules around someone who’s here on a short-term voluntary basis. I wouldn’t have thought so… we’ve got to be absolutely sure,”
                So it is NOT coming from Labour.

                If someone said my car had flat tyres I would check to see if they needed inflating but that doesn’t mean I would be admitting that I have been driving around with flat tyres. As I can see the same dirty politics coming into play with this election with all the shit being bounded around about slave ships and sweat shops by labour I am pleased they are checking the law.

                • BM

                  Lets be honest it’s amateur hour on steroids.

                  A government in waiting I don’t think so,

                  • Honest, yes, let’s be. The Barclay debacle was the height of professionalism. A Government in freefall, BM.

                    • BM

                      I haven’t really followed it that closely, beltway stuff.

                      The issue with the Labour “interns” though, disgraceful, hypocritical, maybe even illegal, heads definitely need to roll.

                    • Did you know that proven liar Prime Minister John key left and Bill English took over and has been caught lying too only he is a bit more yaap so he’s no good at it. That makes the last two gnat leaders caught lying. Breathe it in bm these are the last of the good days for you old bean.

                    • BM

                      Mate, I really don’t care who wins the next election.

                      If labour manages to scrape together a coalition and gains power nothing is really going to change, it’s going to be business as usual.

                      The only change will be English retiring and Collins taking the reins.

                    • I haven’t really followed it that closely, beltway stuff.

                      The issue with the Labour “interns” though…

                      Oh, how we laughed. The PM lying about what he knew of a crime and his involvement in helping covering it up? Beltway stuff, nothing of interest there. A couple of disgruntled Labour interns, though? Disgusting! Heads must roll!

                    • Lol yeah you don’t care all right – after key scurried away many die-hard gnat lovers have felt the same. I feel ya…

                • The Chairman

                  @ Halfcrown

                  When asked if Labour has broken any immigration laws, Kirton replied he’s still getting to the bottom of it. Therefore, clearly they’re unsure.

                  Moreover, the fact he didn’t know, hence wasn’t able to refute it, leaves the thought (it may be illegal) hanging in peoples minds.

                  This is something they should have cleared up right from the get go.

                  But here’s another problem, Kirton believes whether it’s legal doesn’t mean anything. However it does. This will look far worse if it turns out to be illegal, yet Kirton can’t see it.

                  It will be back in the headlines if it is.

                  And while that would explain why they are carrying on, it’s disappointing they can’t see the potential storm they’re sailing into if it turns out to be illegal.

        • weka 10.2.2.2

          “Count yourself among them.”

          +1

        • joe90 10.2.2.3

          Count yourself among them.

          Indeed, and on past performances I reckon our friend has an intent to foment discord.

    • Chuck 10.3

      Here is another poll for you weka…Roy Morgan

      https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7259-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-june-2017-201706230945

      It has Labour @ 25.5% down by 3% from last month. But some good news for the greens they are steady on 14% 🙂

  10. Anne 11

    The latest RNZ story to come out on the MSM labelled “Intern Scandal”.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/333625/labour-party-programme-got-out-of-control

    Meanwhile, the head of the Auckland marae at the centre of the complaints about living conditions said it had been unfairly smeared for political purposes.

    Awataha Marae chief executive Anthony Wilson said most interns he had spoken to had loved their stay.

    He said politicians had seized on the publicity and the marae was being booted back and forth like a political football, which has upset some kaumatua.

    Someone I know intimated something along these lines two weeks ago.

    • McFlock 11.1

      [posted in another thread, but seems pertinent and was offtopic in the other thread so deleted it]

      For an engineer in the political machine, McCarten seems to be a bit shit with paperwork. Although it could also be supervision – a few people involved and the person doing the recruiting didn’t tell the colleagues or McCarten how many people were coming.

      Actually, I wonder if they just didn’t expect the usual rush of applications at the last minute? Every year I am part of the organising committee for an event, and every year we start shitting ourselves that we’ve overcatered and nobody will show up, and it’s always in the last week/ten days that a solid 80% of attendees register. Fucks my blood pressure up and no mistake. But failing to have the guts to tell people “no, time’s up, we’ll put you on a list of alternates if you want” could have gotten them into this position.

      • Anne 11.1.1

        Yes. There does seem to have been a bit of the… left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. It also sounds like more people took up the offer than they had prepared for, but heaven forbid… nobody committed any crimes, and it’s something everybody has experienced when organising an event or a family reunion. There’s always a hitch of some sort which rears its ugly head at the last minute.

        It most certainly didn’t warrant the attention or the vitriol that was heaped on Labour by the MSM over the past 24 hours. They behaved like a pack of howling, rabid dogs. I hope they have sought medical assistance for their hysterical nonsense.

        • McFlock 11.1.1.1

          True, that.

          On the plus side, the Labour thing looks like a bit of a flash in the pan, whereas the deBarclay is a long and steady burner. He’s hanging around like a persistent pimple, and we’ll see if a search warrant comes by this time.

  11. Ad 12

    The latest on getting rid of ISIS out of Mosul:

    https://southfront.org/map-update-iraqi-security-forces-storming-last-isis-bastion-in-mosul/

    And which one is more likely:

    1. The Iraqi government and US military have a plan to rebuild built infrastructure, the Mosque, schools and hospitals and housing, to start to make Mosul a liveable place again.

    2. Iran just waits for the post-victory near-anomie, uses proxies to gain a stronger hold with the Iraqi government, carves the area up informally with the Kurds, and Mosul becomes a shell of a place.

    I sure know what I’d like to see.

    • reason 12.1

      Given that the U.s.a has just sold $120 Billion of weapons to the Saudis …. and that they seem to be a military industrial society that needs to export these weapons of democracy to stay afloat.

      And the fact they help fund Isis … and act as its air-force at crucial moments in Syria.

      Then I would suggest it would be the u,s,a ( and Nato ), who continue the destructive conflicts in the middle east ….. that they started with illegal wars/invasions, launched under false pretenses.

      What do you think Iran would be like today, if the u.s.a and Brits had not attacked and overthrown their democracy way back in 1953 Ad? ….

      Mossadegh was a good man…. and the west has treated the Iranian people with malevolence ever since they overthrew their democratically elected leader.

      Whats your excuse ?.

      • Ad 12.1.1

        Go ahead and defend Iran. Because you clearly can’t see I’m not defending either Iran or the USA.

        Always amusing to see another moist leftie look for the last European regime it can find to assign the ills of the world upon. It was them colonialists who instigated the comprehensively fundamentalist, misogynist, fanatical , murderous and corrupt 1979 Revolution? And the lack of any reform since?

        Have a nice armchair-general time running your alternative history.

        Meantime, first coalition to come up with a post-war plan wins.

        • reason 12.1.1.1

          Weak As Ad.

          Why did the 1979 revolution happen …… 1953 coup.

          What do you think Iran would be like today, if the u.s.a and Brits had not attacked and overthrown their democracy way back in 1953 Ad? ….

          Mossadegh was a good man…. and the west has treated the Iranian people with malevolence ever since they overthrew their democratically elected leader.

          What you complain about is known as “blow-back”

          What do you think Iran would be like today, if the u.s.a and Brits had not attacked and overthrown their democracy way back in 1953 Ad? ….

          • Ad 12.1.1.1.1

            You tell me what it would be like. It’s your story.

            See if that’s fruitful to the impending fall of Mosul and any plan thereafter.

            • reason 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Well we can know for certain that the `1979 revolution would not have happened if Iran was allowed to continue as a peaceful secular democracy.

              We know that the Shah imposed upon the Iranians was a murderous thieving thug.

              Ayatollah Khomeini was the fanatical blow back that removed the unpopular Shah.

              The average Iranian is obviously far worse off thanks to the real … not alternative ….. history behind the present.

              No 1953 coup ,,, no 1979 Ayatollah

              And basically evidence since Yugoslavia onward s points to the fact.

              That from the west.

              The plan Is war ….

              For profit …. to the few.

              The fate of Mosul ….. going on its history since the u.s.a turned Iraq into one huge war crime ….. is that it will see more shells and bombing and death squads than building.

              Look to Fallujah

              • Ad

                There is no fate.

                An equally valid alternative, if the Iraqi government lets them, and if Iran is supportive, is to look to Kurdish Erbil:

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

                “The Kurdistan region of Iraq enjoys more stability, economic development, and political pluralism than the rest of the country. And public opinion under the Kurdistan Regional Government demands rule-of-law-based governance. But power is concentrated in the hands of the ruling parties and families, who perpetuate a nondemocratic, sultanistic system. These dynamics could foster instability in Kurdistan and its neighborhood, but could also provide a rare window of opportunity for democratization.”

                Stranger things have happened.

                • reason

                  Well with the Billions of weapons being pumped into the middle east I think the destruction rate ( 3.5 million refugees Iraq ) will continue.

                  Who are we bombing ?” 3mins 43

                  P.s I thought Saddam, another c.i.a installed thug, should have been hung when he used Sarin nerve gas on the Iranians with coordination and coordinates from the usa …

                  Muammar Gaddafi on the other hand with his bloodless coup …… demonstrated socialism working ….. by the largest improvements of living standards for the people of Libya …., in the shortest period of time …. in any country anywhere in the world ….. in the 20th century.

                  Nato will be able to take credit for the quickest reversal …..

                  • joe90

                    Muammar Gaddafi on the other hand with his bloodless coup

                    then it was all down hill – mass arrests and detention, torture, disappearances, televised executions, the assassination of expat opponents abroad, nuclear ambitions, war with his neighbours, the financing of ETA in Spain, the IRA and the Italian Red Brigades, as well as groups in Japan, Turkey, Thailand and the Philippines……

                    • reason

                      You sound like your reeling of the actions of the cia/u.s.a in south america or Iraq or Vietnam Joe90 ….. or to quote Nelson Mandela …….“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace. If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the USA. They don’t care for human beings.”

                      I on the other hand was talking about a man using the resources of his country ( instead of BP getting it ), ……. and lowering infant mortality from over 100 deaths per thousand live births down to approx 14

                      Who granted equal Human rights to women in 1972 ….. something the fundamentalist terrorists Hated …… like the British sponsored “Manchester Boys” …. and other religious extremists used by the west.

                      He vastly improved housing from most living in slums ….. and declared housing a human right.

                      He vastly improved access to and quality of medical care … free

                      He was ridding the country of illiteracy and had full enrollments of children into schools

                      University education was free …… and of course women could attend.

                      He took Libya from one of the most impoverished countrys in the world …….. and before being Mob murdered had Libya with the highest standard of living in Africa and a life expectancy comparable to Europe.

                      No other country in the world improved the standard of living for its citizens by such an amount in such a short time ……. through Socialism.

                      Nato will bear responsibility for the quickest decline

                      The most famous terrorist he supported was one Nelson Mandela ….. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37301.htm

                      He supported the Palestinians which infuriated the Israelis

                      I tend to think that the hard facts and statistics regarding health, education…..water and housing projects. The improvements in living standards are there for anyone to find on the internet.

                      Speaks more to me of the man than tony Blair , or Cameron type hyperbole…… the types who give safe harbors to ‘Manchester Boys’.

                      You can see Cameron in action in the video I linked to above.

                      Such huge bullshitters

  12. mauī 13

    EF Schumacher on small economics. Too bad 40 years on we turned our backs on this stuff and doubled down on waste, consumption and greed. It looks like we’re going to learn the hard way.

  13. Savenz 14

    Was thinking that John key has haijacked the ‘third way’ for the national party that politicians like tony blair did for Labour Party in th UK. It goes too far and the leaders turn into arguably criminal liars and their obsession with networking & likeability drag their counties into war, debt & division.

    For the national party voters, that hanker after the ‘old values’ of the national party before they became asset selling, migration touting, arrogant careerists that don’t give a crap about their constituents and spend their days drinking & lunching & day trading & doing real estate deals like hotels & conference centres, nz first is a good alternative. It’s the national party of old! Hope winston does a killing in all the Natz stronghold provinces!

    if labour & greens pick up the missing million as well, then the the public can kick the ‘third way’ Natz to the curb – hopefully in a landslide to send that message home!

    • Graeme 14.1

      This is probably a fairly good cross section of Clutha Southland, they’re not happy

      http://www.scene.co.nz/the-south-today/?video=5478401942001

      Quite possible that the “missing million” won’t so much be the left’s to pick up, but National’s to loose this election.

      • weka 14.1.1

        Hope that makes National nervous. I wonder how many of those National voters saying they won’t vote National are talking about the party vote or the seat vote.

        • Graeme 14.1.1.1

          From my personal acquaintances who vote nat, and a very small sample, split between not voting, see who the new candidate is, Mark Patterson (NZF candidate) / National pv, NZF / NZF.

          Prior to toddles’ departure (Monday, Tue morning) you could take out the new candidate option. Patterson was getting a lot of interest and maybe that triggered the end game.

          • weka 14.1.1.1.1

            So English’s involvement and behaviour isn’t changing the party vote?

            • Graeme 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Don’t think Bill’s coming out of this exactly smelling of roses. More and more people are getting sick of the lies, and the liars winning.

              • weka

                True, but I suspect that many of those Nat voters will hold their noses and party vote Nat anyway. Swing ones are another matter I guess.

                • Graeme

                  My comment about the missing million. It could affect National just like it got Labour in 2008. And for exactly the same reason, arrogance and moved too far into opposition territory to try and hold onto the centre voters.

                  The “faithful” say bugger ya, and stay at home

    • Tamati Tautuhi 14.2

      I think NZF is getting some traction in the provinces, won’t get any help from NZ’s Tory media though.

  14. Draco T Bastard 15

    Tory Government’s benefit cap is unlawful and causes ‘real misery for no good purpose’, High Court rules

    The Government has been dealt a huge blow as the High Court ruled its benefit cap is unlawful and illegally discriminates against single parents with young children.

    #notsurprised

    If we could take our government to court over their benefit policies we’d probably get the same ruling.

    Also, to those who think an Upper House works, this must have got past the UKs House of Lords.

  15. swordfish 16

    Latest YouGov poll

    Corbyn now rated as best PM for first time

    ………………… June 5-7 ………… June 21-22
    Corbyn ………… 32 …………………… 35 …… + 3
    May …………….. 43 …………………… 34 ……. – 9

    The first time YouGov have a Labour leader ahead a Tory leader on the best PM question since the summer of 2007.(although 35% still a long way from wildly popular)

    • swordfish 16.1

      More telling contrast = In first YouGov poll after calling the General Election (18-19 April) … May was leading Corbyn by 54%-15% on best PM

      … So May down 20 points … Corbyn up 20

  16. Pete 17

    You gotta smile at the world we live in.

    Herald online suggesting Prince Harry is in trouble: ” Stripping off in Vegas is one thing, but speaking the unvarnished truth is quite another.”

    And on this side of the world Bill English is in trouble for telling unvarnished lies.

    • Ad 17.1

      I’m hoping the next Queen will change the UK national anthem from God Save the Queen to My Milkshake Brings All The Boys To The Yard.

  17. Draco T Bastard 18

    The Arab vision for fighting terrorism

    The only way to fight “terror” in the region is to reclaim a shared vision that transcends tribalism and sectarianism.

    The discourse on terrorism has itself been narrowed down so much that there is little or no space in mainstream media for any other ideas on how to combat it

    “What 95 percent of all suicide attacks have in common, since 1980, is not religion, but a specific strategic motivation to respond to a military intervention, often specifically a military occupation, of territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly. From Lebanon and the West Bank in the 80s and 90s, to Iraq and Afghanistan, and up through the Paris suicide attacks we’ve just experienced in the last days, military intervention – and specifically when the military intervention is occupying territory – that’s what prompts suicide terrorism more than anything else.”

    Such findings – based on examining 4,600 suicide attacks – had no influence on US foreign policy.

    Many who applied terror against their own people, or funded terrorism elsewhere, are not hesitating to accuse others of terrorism

    We are being lied to to justify invasion into other countries.

  18. Andre 19

    Heh.

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/06/our-score-so-far-republicans-89-democrats-1/

    Anyone got anything similar for our local scene? I know the strike rate with ACT is high enough that trouble with the law feels like a near prerequisite to serving in Parliament, but I’ve got no feel for how the balance looks for other parties.

  19. Ad 20

    Standard “gotcha” column inches entitled “Labour Gives Up Search For Missing Million”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11881038

    Sigh.

    • greywarshark 20.1

      Bryce Edwards stirring it around again. He is from Christchurch and seems all shook up with the earthquakes and that, and hasn’t settled and found stability in his political discourse so up bubbles a lot of liquefaction. Which faction it is differs from week to week.

  20. Takere 21

    Regardless what “we” might think or like or dislike about this Student Internship Calamity Recruitment Campaign Drive ….the Hack LSM & Hoots are going to keep on kicking this story all the way to the election.
    Its a fuck up in anyone’s book & the fault lies with all involved who’ve forgotten the golden rule, dont piss your workers off! And also remember; the first rule is the same as the 2nd & the 3rd, you dont talk about …
    So, a collective “Fuck this Fuck’n mess!” Time to shore up the dyke because the latest RM Polls out & that is just going to compound this almighty fuck up.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7259-roy-morgan-new-zealand-voting-intention-june-2017-201706230945

  21. patricia bremner 22

    We need to “grow some” donate enrol and vote. Leave the hair shirt at home.

  22. Cinny 23

    Heard Nick Smith on the wireless saying the new nelson branch of the young Nat’s is thriving, dang are there only six members = 5 white males, 1 white female?

    • weka 23.1

      Heh. In case you are around, there’s a post going up tomorrow about the Greens running a de-seat Smith campaign in Nelson.

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