Open mike 25/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 25th, 2022 - 137 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

137 comments on “Open mike 25/06/2022 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Lovely piece of snark from The Guardian on Rupert Murdoch divorcing Jerry Hall:

    "When Rupert and Jerry rushed down the aisle six years ago, aged 84 and 59 respectively, there was widespread suggestion that this fourth wife would see Murdoch out. See him out? Do me a favour. He’ll see out the East Antarctic ice sheet. He’ll see out the expansion of the sun (the star at the centre of our solar system, not the newspaper). It seems likely to the point of certainty that Rupert will be one of Earth’s last-surviving life forms, affectlessly inciting the tardigrades to insurrection and publishing grotesque lies about the cockroaches.

    Still, six years! You’d get less for abduction, and could be out on a tag in three."

    Murdoch’s divorce will leave a hole in his life. Could a new prime minister fill it? | Marina Hyde | The Guardian

  2. DB Brown 2

    USA supreme court leading them off a cliff.

    How ridiculous to think they're sending rockets to space and exploring quantum computing, meanwhile this stone age horseshit.

    Bout time this planet said no to religion – it is a major impediment to both progress and peace.

    • Ad 2.1

      Thomas calls for overturning precedents on contraceptives, LGBTQ rights | The Hill

      From the dissenting opinion judges:

      “The majority could write just as long an opinion showing, for example, that until the mid-20th century, ‘there was no support in American law for a constitutional right to obtain [contraceptives],'” the justices added. “So one of two things must be true. Either the majority does not really believe in its own reasoning. Or if it does, all rights that have no history stretching back to the mid-19th century are insecure. Either the mass of the majority’s opinion is hypocrisy, or additional constitutional rights are under threat. It is one or the other.”

      And regrettably, Justice Thomas's opinion supporting the majority goes directly in that direction, getting ready to overturn LGBT rights and Contraception access rights.

      It's a very dark day for US healthcare and women's rights.

      • Sanctuary 2.1.1

        The politicisation of the supreme court is just incredible. The whole point of making appointments for life was to avoid this situation. Still, a political court demands a political solution. The Democrats need to appoint four more justices.

        • Grey Area

          With Senators in their party like Manchin and Sinema I doubt that's going to happen.

        • arkie

          The Democrats seem comfortable using the threat of diminishing rights as a cudgel to demand votes while at the same time aren't prepared to actually legislate protections for those rights:

          As a candidate, Obama supported the Freedom of Choice Act, which would eliminate federal, state and local restrictions on abortion.

          President Barack Obama said on Wednesday he favored abortion rights for women but that passing a law guaranteeing those rights was not his top priority, trying to avoid inflaming divisions over the issue.

          And Biden:

          “Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, and we must fight any and all attempts to overturn it. As president, I will codify Roe into law and ensure this choice remains between a woman and her doctor,” Mr Biden had said in 2019 on Twitter.

          "It's a sad day for the court and for the country," Biden said in a White House address after the ruling, which he said was taking the country back 150 years.

          Biden promised to go on fighting for reproductive rights but said no executive order can guarantee a woman’s right to choose.

          He urged voters to send lawmakers to Congress who will work to codify abortion rights as the law of the land.

          "This fall, Roe is on the ballot. Personal freedoms are on the ballot," Biden said, referring to the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade decision making abortion legal nationally.

          • Sanctuary

            It may be this decision is a classic dog catching the car moment for Republicans. They were cruising to a comfortable house majority in the mid-terms. They've just given the Democrats a real chance of keeping control of the house and trhe Senate.

            • arkie

              I'm not so confident, mid-terms favour the opposition and Biden's broken promises and lack of legislative action has earned him a lower approval rating than Trump at the same point in his presidency.

          • SPC

            The filibuster prevents Democrats from passing any such legislation.

            The real issue was whether the Democrats would end the filibuster, or whether POTUS would add new members to SCOTUS.

            There was a case for adding a new member to SCOTUS because the GOP blocked the appointment of Garland in 2016. Or even two members because Gorsuch was appointed in his place. But given this 6-3 majority, it being 6-4 or 6-5 would not change the result. Thus there was no such option available to Biden (once Barrett replaced RBG).

            It's now about the filibuster and federal legislation – but SCOTUS is affirming states rights time and time again.

            Unfortunately for Biden, Mansion Cinema on Capitol Hill for life do for the the filibuster option what the boll weevil did to the cotton crop.

            • arkie

              In 2008 Obama had a filibuster-proof supermajority, so if he had fufilled his campaign promise then they wouldn't be in this situation at all.

              • SPC

                He had a Senate majority for 2 years. A filibuster proof super majority is over 60 Senate seats. He could have tried to get a vote through to end the filibuster – but the GOP members would have resorted to the filibuster to prevent the vote being held. At the time Obama's primary focus was getting a vote for Obamacare.

                And back in 2008-2010 it was not known that the GOP would block the appointment of Garland (2016) or that RBG would choose to remain on the Court until she died (by then Trump was POTUS).

                • arkie

                  Ah yes, such effective government.

                • Sabine

                  It has been known for 40 years that the GOP will do ANYTHING to overturn Roe vs Wade, Griswold vs Conneticut and the newer one Obergefell right to Marry, and of course Love vs Virginia interracial marriage if given half a chance.

                  The failure does not so much lie with the federal government but with all 'dem' states that did not codify the right to abortion into their State laws but who left it to the Supreme Court.

                  The GOP did what they said they would do, and the Dems did not.

                  And i do hope that in the US some people might wake up again and realise that their oppression comes on the grounds of sex, and not gender identity.

                  • SPC

                    Except …

                    1. the right to abortion will continue in every blue governed state in the Union.
                    2. those in the US who favour such oppression, do so knowing that it is on the basis of sex.
                    • Sabine
                      1. these states might be governed by red again in the future and done.
                      1. and those who pretend that this is not oppression on the basis of sex are helping those that know.

                      ditto Obama, said this:


                      maybe replace someone with Women, or gestational carrier. They will be the only ones making that decision.



                      maybe she should have stated that WOMEN will die, as they are the only ones being affected physically by that decision.

                      You can blame the right as much as you want, but the Left can't even state in correct terms who is affected by this decision, who will suffer physically, and who may die as a result of this decision.

                      And you can not protect something if you can't name those that will suffer the consequences of removing statues, laws, rules and regulations.

                      So the left will maybe have to wake up and smell their own progressive coffee and wonder just how much help they gave to the right. The misogyny on the left is not hte same as on the right, and that is the reason why in the western world people now refuse to say Women, even on a day like today and thus can not defend rights that are instrumental to living life as a human with hopes of self fulfilment.

                    • SPC

                      The victims are the millions of women who live in GOP controlled states, not the other ones.

                      Accusing the left of misogny (when half is female and more females support the transgender cause than males) is a rather dubious argument.

                      I wonder if Microsoft will later inform us that the idea was sourced in Russia as part of dividing the West from within?

    • Grey Area 2.2

      The main reason given for the decision seems to be that there is no clear right to abortion in the constitution. There is also no mention of motor vehicles, or air travel, or travelling to the Moon.

      Part of me says why should we care but I feel for many American women the same way that for example I feel for so many women in Muslim countries and some African countries.

      It is up to the American people to fix their broken country but their deep divisions and their political/legal structure including their great constitution mean they can't.

    • SPC 2.3

      The majority of American Christians (evangelicals/pentecostals/Baptist Church) believe in end-time judgment and the rule on earth of a Christian throne.

      The Catholic Church, does not teach end-time judgment, but does believe in its authority on earth.

      The convergence is known as Christian dominionism.

      All 6 of the Justices who made this decision were raised in Catholic families (one Gorsuch met an Anglican while at Oxford and now attends Episcopalian Church in the USA with his family).

      With the formation of Moral Majority by a scion of the Baptist Church there has developed an alliance with conservative Catholic laity within the GOP for takeover of the Supreme Court to impose their values on the USA.

      While it poses as pro life, it includes states right to determine election rules (Jim Crow) and is very pro gun rights. Thus the idea of the USA as a new world HRE, a Christian super power on earth – thus its wars against the secular left (Cuba, Venezuela, Iraq, Libya) continuing beyond the end of the Cold War.

      The control of SCOTUS will last a generation and lead to the same stress that resulted in the Civil War. This time there will be no such war. If the USA remains democratic it will break up. As likely, it will cease to identify as a democracy and more openly and proudly profess itself as a constitutional republic (as many in the GOP claim it has always been). This means the remnant of Thomas Jefferson's Democratic Republican Party will be marginalised and excluded from the GOP and the Democratic Party will be portrayed as UnAmerican (UNAmerican). Then the difference between government in the USA, Russia and China will diminish – it will look like a hydra headed leviathon.

      While Oceania needs to remain united to see off the wolf warriors Putin and Jinping, the 21st C future might involve a democratic alliance (EU/UK/NE USA/Canada and India/Japan/ASEAN/Tasman-Pacific and West Coast USA).

    • Sabine 2.4

      Malta, Ultra progressive island in Europe, nr. 1 on LGBTQS+ ( and so on and so forth, denies abortion in all cases. Currently denied was a young women who suffered a miscarriage, with the umbilical cord exiting the cervix, etc who was told that she would have to wait for the fetus heartbeat to disappear before they can give her a live saving abortion. Or she would have to get sepsis. Lol. Her crime, on holiday on the Island.

      She was finally flown out to Spain for that procedure a few hours ago.

      but the doctors in Malta would disagree and pretend that they will always have the good of the gestational carrier at mind.

      Never mind that they denied her gestational carrier centric healthcare.

      From two days ago.

      Prudente, 38, was on holiday with her partner, Jay Weeldreyer, 45, on the island of Gozo on 12 June when she began bleeding heavily in the night.

      Doctors in Gozo prescribed her a drug to protect against miscarriage, but two days later when they were back on Malta, the main island, Prudente’s waters broke and she was admitted to St Thomas hospital, where she was told that her placenta had become partially detached.

      A follow-up ultrasound 48 hours later found there was no amniotic fluid left in her womb, and the couple were told the baby could not survive. They were also told that because of Malta’s abortion law, there was nothing doctors could do to end the pregnancy as long as the foetus had a heartbeat.

      Prudente was transferred to Mater Dei hospital, where she was additionally diagnosed with a ruptured membrane and an umbilical cord that was protruding from her cervix, putting her at even greater risk of hemorrhaged and infection.

      That headline though from the Guardian – the wokest of all woke fishwraps, she was not endangered by the hospital, she was merely traumatized.

      Yeah, we might fly to the moon and have mixed sex toilets and sports for gestational carriers, and pretend that we can change sex and all that jazz, but hey that does not mean that we consider gestational carriers humans or human enough for human rights.

      • SPC 2.4.1

        Most nations that have progressive liberal laws (LGBT) do not have Malta's prohibition of abortion.

        So citing Malta is just a disingenuous attempt to link liberalism with being anti-women, because of "transgender".

        • Sabine

          How bout Brazil? super woke too to some extend.

          A Brazilian judge has refused to let an 11-year-old rape victim have an abortion — and ordered the girl to stay in a shelter to prevent her from trying to get one.

          The girl, who hasn’t been named, was taken to a hospital in Brazil’s Santa Catarina state last month after her mother discovered the child had fallen pregnant after being raped in the family’s home, the Intercept reported Monday.

          Doctors refused to perform an abortion on the girl because she was already 22 weeks and two days pregnant. Under the hospital’s rules, the procedure can only be carried out until the 20-week mark.

          When the case was brought before Judge Joana Ribeiro Zimmer, the magistrate sided with the doctors and ruled the girl couldn’t have the abortion because she was already too far along.


          Elsewhere in the hearing, the judge discussed giving the infant up for adoption, telling the girl there were “30,000 couples who wanted the baby.”

          She also asked if the girl wanted to “choose the baby’s name” and if the man who raped her would agree with putting the child up for adoption.

          oh but that too is just a gestational carrier. 🙂

          We have an issue where we want to protect something that belongs to no one as the ones formerly known as women are not longer such, that privilege is now reserved for men, and thus well, whos right is it to abortion? \

          And funny how men always know who gives birth and how to oppress them on the grounds of this birthgiving ability. But then are gestational carriers even human.


          Btw, in Poland they are creating a register for all pregnancies and are tightening their abortion laws. lol

          Cause we do know who does the birthing, and it ain't males in frocks or males in general. Its those born female, women, transmen and non binary.

          • joe90

            Pretty much anywhere where a particular creed dominates.

            Shortly after being found at a high school on Mexico’s Yucatan Peninsula, the body of a newborn arrived at the medical examiner’s office.

            The autopsy team placed the boy on a scale — which indicated 5 pounds, 4 ounces — and searched for clues to how he died. Opening his chest, they removed a tiny pair of reddish lungs and set them in a container of water.

            It was a key moment and a test. If the lungs floated, they presumably contained air, which would suggest the infant took a breath when he entered the world. If the lungs sank, it would point to a stillbirth.

            The lungs floated. And when they were pushed underwater, bubbles appeared.

            “The fetus breathed the moment it was born,” the medical examiner wrote in her report — a finding that opened the door for prosecutors to file murder charges against a teenager named Guadalupe.

            The flotation test, as it is known, dates to at least the 1600s, and today it is standard practice in many parts of Latin America. The Times reviewed six cases in Mexico, El Salvador and Argentina in which prosecutors relied on it to charge women with homicide. Some were sentenced to decades in prison.



          • SPC

            The laws of democracies are set by voters, half of whom are women.

  3. Sanctuary 3

    Given America's schlerotic and dysfunctional democracy and that heavily armed countries prediliction for constitutionalism tempered with assassination, if I were conservative justice on the supreme court I'd be upping my personal security.

  4. Anker 4

    this is why so many of us are concerned about the requirement to affirm and confirm gender identity. In doing this, the pathway to medical transition is assured without question.

    A therapist conference, which is been held in NZ, (the key note speaker is Stella O’Malley, an Irish pyschotherapist who suffered intense gender dysphoria as a child) urges caution about confirming gender identity and advocates for what is known as “watchful waiting”. It is stories like this young man, who was castrated, which really illustrates we need to be cautious with here kids.

    35 de transitioners on Redit and the trans rights activists don’t give a dam or want to know.

    • Visubversa 4.1

      It is both. Not only do they not want to know about them, they also do not care about them to the extent that they will lie about them – not "true trans" and will attack them viciously on line. Ideologies have never been good with apostates.

    • Anker 4.2

      Sorry that should be 35.000 de-transitioners.

  5. pat 5

    A couple of inherently racist Australians discussing current events

  6. Jenny how to get there 6

    Something for all the dodderly old tankies and useful idiots to get them going……

    Tom Scott 'Spot the difference'

  7. Molly 7

    In terms of political strategy, it strikes me as advantageous for gender ideology activists to have identified a new proponent of harm and discrimination within the Christian community.

    Given the track record with Israel Folau – this opportunity to create a narrative of persecution was ready and waiting to be picked up when needed.

    Why is it needed now?

    Well, the current mood regarding the negative impact of the inclusion of males into the female sports category, is trending towards support for women. Which may result in women being heard – and they are talking about impacts other than sports – so another group of bigots needs to be found, before media realises their omission and mistakenly starts giving them airtime.

    Whose next in line? Those Christians can always be relied upon to say something that can be 'demonised', ha ha.

    I admit, I have no idea if this is the case. But as a political strategy, it is sound.

    Let's encourage media to get more details about how the Bethlehem College situation has come about.

    • SPC 7.1

      International sport has always had a prime consideration of fair competition, so this current trend is no surprise.

      The more nuanced debate will be sport at the club and high school level. At the club level the issue will be one of "player safety" (contact sport), with the younger age levels (and likely pre-op) of high school sport it will become one of "changing rooms" (a bit more sensitive than bathrooms).

      The issue only transfers to the wider society where a nation allows anyone who "self-identifies" to change their birth sex on the certificate. Some nations with a more rigorous process (two years living as a female/hormones etc – through a counselling process and commitment to live as a female permanently) will find this (inevitable) sporting development easier to co-exist with.

      • Molly 7.1.1

        "International sport has always had a prime consideration of fair competition, so this current trend is no surprise."

        For many, the surprise was that the obvious has been ignored for so long, and has required considerable effort and organisation to be even considered. That effort is ongoing, and considerable damage to women and girl's sports has already happened and is continuing to happen.

        I don't believe this inclusion requires 'nuanced debate'. It requires only consideration for the existing reasons for the female sports categories. Robust scientific evidence exists about the all aspects of performance differentials. Lower level achievement and training is where elite athletes come from. Interruption at that level has future consequences.

        Transgender people – whose gender doesn't align with their sex – are asking for inclusion into a sex category in which they don't belong.

        Gender ideologist activists recognise sex when it comes to non-alignment, but then conflate both sex and gender in every other instance.

        Both a contradiction, and inaccurate.

        • SPC

          I don't believe this inclusion requires 'nuanced debate'. It requires only consideration for the existing reasons for the female sports categories. Robust scientific evidence exists about the all aspects of performance differentials. Lower level achievement and training is where elite athletes come from. Interruption at that level has future consequences.

          The numbers of those involved would not have much impact on pathways for those progressing to the international level.

          So I would expect the issue (as to club sport) will focus on player safety and the wider good of the game. They will want to be seen as inclusive, but not at the expense of safety and the good of their sport.

          Schools have other factors in play (developmental well-being).

          There was once the argument that marriage was between a man and a woman and so same sex couples should be proscribed, or unrecognised, or included via civil unions.

          Today same sex marriages are not seen as a contradiction. That said, this does not mean that changing birth certificate sex ID to conform to later gender ID is going to become universally accepted, or even widespread.

          And in sport, fair competition and player safety are the existing established values.

          • Belladonna

            The numbers of those involved would not have much impact on pathways for those progressing to the international level.

            The total numbers don't matter – it's the effect on the female competitions/competitors.
            When biological males such as Laurel Hubbard and Lia Thomas, transition, and compete in women's sports categories – they take with them the physical advantages that male puberty brings (they are physically bigger and stronger than their born female counterparts).

            If trans-women are going to win all of the women's competitions (because of biological advantage), why would born women even bother competing? It's just as dispiriting to consistently lose against someone with a biological advantage, whether at local, national or international levels.

            The creation of 'open' categories (which seems to be mooted for swimming) would enable trans-women to continue competing, if they wished to do so.

            • SPC

              The international rules on fair competition would prevent the transgender from national selection.

              Thus the club pathways for women to international sport would remain open. A few transgender rivals at the lower level would not prevent that – the issue in team and contact sports (club level) would be player safety.

              The transgender could consider joining gays (who have their own games).

          • Molly

            "The numbers of those involved would not have much impact on pathways for those progressing to the international level."

            That ignores the value and benefits enjoyed by females in social teams or at lower levels. They are considerable, and ignoring that is discriminatory.

            "So I would expect the issue (as to club sport) will focus on player safety and the wider good of the game. They will want to be seen as inclusive, but not at the expense of safety and the good of their sport."

            You've missed the issue of fairness.

            The World Rugby Union considered all three factors: Fairness, Safety and Inclusion. Inclusion (of males in the female category) impacted on both the other factors. Inclusion of male in the male category, minimises the negative effects on safety and fairness, it fact it maintains the high levels of both.

            Transgender people can compete in the sex category they belong. They are not excluded from participation or competition by their gender identities.

            "Schools have other factors in play (developmental well-being)."

            Yes. They also have to consider the privacy and dignity of all students. And the impact of puberty, with it's congruent sexual awareness and activity and emergent behaviours and understandings associated with it. This is a time for clear boundaries and understandings.

            It is also a recognised time for many females – to exit from sports – for a number of reasons, some to do with social influences, but also to do with changing bodies and menstruation impacts.

            Your analogy to same-sex marriages is conflation of issues.

            Those who are fighting for clear single-sex categories and boundaries, have concrete reasons for doing so. They are neither ignorant nor adhering to outdated values. They are simply saying No, and explaining why.

            • SPC

              Those who are fighting for clear single-sex categories and boundaries, have concrete reasons for doing so. They are neither ignorant nor adhering to outdated values. They are simply saying No, and explaining why.

              Those of the Bethlehem Church would say the same thing. Which does not make you, or them, right or wrong.

              You want sport to adhere to a position on separation of sex, but in a society where governments are allowing people to change their birth sex (because of gender ID), this is not an easy given. And governments are different around the world.

              Which is why each sport will be be looking at the issue without that hard and fast easy determination. Fair competition will exclude the transgender from international sport, player safety will also exclude in some club sport as well. Then there is the issue of the good of the game (as to impact on player involvement and the place of the game in wider society) – which is a variable depending on the nation concerned (such factors as government and commercial support).

              That ignores the value and benefits enjoyed by females in social teams or at lower levels.

              Having one or two transgender players in one or teams in the competition grade would have little impact on this (if it impacted teams within a club, the issue is whether they could determine their own club policy or not).

              The World Rugby Union considered all three factors: Fairness, Safety and Inclusion. Inclusion (of males in the female category) impacted on both the other factors. Inclusion of male in the male category, minimises the negative effects on safety and fairness, it fact it maintains the high levels of both.

              This would inform the selection of national teams, but national (and maybe provincial) unions would decide guidelines for local clubs (which may also have some flexibility).

              • Molly

                "Those of the Bethlehem Church would say the same thing. Which does not make you, or them, right or wrong."

                Once again, conflating women talking about the impact on single-sex provisions in society and legislation with another group entirely. I'm relatively patient, but having to repeatedly point this out is tedious.

                "You want sport to adhere to a position on separation of sex, but in a society where governments are allowing people to change their birth sex (because of gender ID), this is not an easy given."

                Yes, and despite many pointing out this impact, here in NZ politicians, media and organisations promoted and practiced the concept of #NoDebate, leading into this current situation.

                IIRC, over 7000 submissions were made to the Bill, over 73% were against the Bill, many in part because of their ability to see such conflicts not being addressed adequately beforehand. The fact that the Bill was passed regardless without addressing those points is an indication of how flawed the process and the Bill was.

                "Having one or two transgender players in one or teams in the competition grade would have little impact on this (if it impacted teams within a club, the issue is whether they could determine their own club policy or not)."

                Giving exceptions to people because they are few, is a bad argument to make. Feather weight competitors strive to meet their category, knowing that the difference of a few grams can catapult them into a heavier category. Transwomen remain able to compete in the male category, what is being demanded is that they are able to pick and choose to suit their own demands.

                "This would inform the selection of national teams, but national (and maybe provincial) unions would decide guidelines for local clubs (which may also have some flexibility)."

                Yes. Make the imposition at all levels, so that women and girls are required to pushback at every sport at every level against this. I'm sure that the energy needed to establish female sports in the first place can be harnassed again – eventually.

                But why the hell should it have to be?

                • SPC

                  My point was not to conflate the issues, but to note that past norms/certainties can continue to be held despite society change. Another example would be the Promise Keeper movement that holds to the idea of God ordained male leadership (and is heavily "pro life" on the abortion issue).

                  As to your reference to the debate that occurred here before the law change.

                  While international sporting bodies can create rules without regard to nation state laws, it is different for national sporting bodies.

                  For example they might look at citing player safety (health and safety factors are recognised in national law as a responsibility) to exclude those born male. But in a nation where the government allows people to change their birth sex ID this might not work, this might not be possible (consulting lawyers the HRC).

                  So in considering the good of the game, and being unable to legally discriminate against those who change their birth sex, they will say they support inclusion.

                  How schools would then operate rules for school sport is another matter.

                  This leaves a lot for organisations to work through and without much of a legislative playbook to guide them.

                  • Molly

                    You say that conflation is not your intent, and then bring up Promise Keepers – another right-wing Christian movement, that has nothing to do with Gender Critical feminism.

                    Your reference to legislation and sporting regulations ignores the very real fact that until very recently, everyone who was involved in female sports knew who was eligible and who wasn't. It is only with the blurring of boundaries, and the redefinitions of existing language, that confusion has taken place.

                    There have also been many comments here about the impact on women and girls, and you refrain from acknowledging them, which means that you also propose no alternative solutions.

                    Skilled #NoDebate techniques, include not listening to relevant points or considerations.

                    A question:

                    Transwomen declare they have a misalignment between their sex and personal gender identity, so they understand the distinction of sex and gender identity.

                    Sports is segregated on the basis of age, weight and sex.

                    Why is that categorisation of sex conflated to mean 'gender identity'?

                    Transwomen are already included – along with every one else – in the current categories, and can compete in their biological sex class – without any impact at all on their gender identity.

                    So, why is there a demand for transgender athletes to be accommodated in a category to which they do not belong?

                    Would we allow non-disabled atheletes to identify into the Para Olympics?

                    Do we allow teenagers to identify into Veteran's categories, or children's categories?

                    Do we allow heavyweights to identify into featherweight categories?

                    We both know the answers to these questions are "No" followed by, "Of course not".

                    So, the question is, why allow anyone to identify into a category to which they do not belong?

                    • SPC

                      The ultimate in no debate is to insult those you debate with. Restate your dogma all you like, others have the right to do the same and do too.


                    • Molly


                      Where's the insult?… and your answer?

    • Molly 7.2

      As regards the sports, a recent update on the NZ situation for the domestic purists. Unfortunately, not from the Herald or another NZ site, but reported in the UK Daily Mail, the New York Post etc.

      "FINA, the international sports federation for swimming, announced on Sunday that transgender women can now only compete in the organisation's women's races if they have completed their transition by the age of 12.

      Instead, a new category will be established to accommodate transgender athletes who will no longer be able to compete against biological women.

      Weatherly described the rules as a 'cut and dry line' and said the rules 'masquerade as an inclusive policy' but essentially ban trans women from being able to compete."

      Let's be accurate.

      Transwomen were always able to compete – like everyone else, in the appropriate sex, weight or age category.

      Some of them wanted to be excluded from this requirement.

      There is a puff-piece from 2018 from NZ media. Focuses on testosterone levels as the only criteria to consider.

      • SPC 7.2.1

        Sure the advantage from the male growth period continues to exist after the end of greater testosterone. Which is what the international sporting bodies will be considering.

        The initial focus on testosterone measure was a legacy of drug cheating in both male and female sport (steroid use) and then the case of the athlete born female (XY intersex) but with high levels of it (Semenya).

        • Visubversa

          Caster Semenya is a person with a DSD but was not "born female". Caster has a "Y" chromosome and internal testes – doing what testes do – which is to pump out testosterone. Caster was raised as female because in very non-medical language "it is easier to dig a hole than it is to build a pole". Also at the time and place of Caster's birth, there was not the ability to do the chromosome tests to identify which of the 40 odd DSD syndromes the child fell into. This would have enabled a much more accurate prognosis of future development of primary and secondary sex characteristics.

          • Belladonna

            It's difficult to tell, as she is entitled to her privacy, and hasn't chosen to make her medical records public. But it looks as though she went through male puberty – i.e. there was such a dramatic jump in her speed and record-breaking results, that there was suspicion of drug-cheating, and a sex-test was requested.

            Which is the benchmark that the swimming federation is using.

            • Molly

              I believe that Caster Semenya is one of those for whom the phrase "assigned female at birth" is accurate. As it was for many with DSD's, when the observation method of determining sex is flawed.

              This is a different conversation to the inclusion of men – without DSD's – being included in the female sex category.

              I think whatever solution is found for those with DSDs, a clinical diagnosis unfortunately has to be part of the process.

              There's a good article here that looks at some of the realities of inclusion of those with DSDs who have the advantage of male development or testosterone in the female sports categories:


              "The crazy thing about the Semenya case is that even though intersex births like Semenya’s are extremely rare it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex. Yes, all three. If that doesn’t make you understand from a simple odds perspective that there needs to be a limit on testosterone in women’s sports, then I don’t know what will. Of course, common sense also tells us that most human beings that have XY chromosomes gain a huge advantage in sports once they hit puberty, mainly due to increased testosterone levels.

              How big of an advantage is it? Well sports scientist Ross Tucker – who actually testified on behalf of Semenya before the Court of Arbitration for Sport as he thought one of the IAAF’s studies used against Semenya was flawed but also supports, in theory, limits on testosterone for women in sports – has described the presence of the Y-chromosome as the “THE single greatest genetic “advantage” a person can have.”

          • Muttonbird

            That is some frightful cancelling of a gifted athlete because of the circumstances of her birth.

            • Molly

              "That is some frightful cancelling of a gifted athlete because of the circumstances of her birth."

              This approach is what surprises me.

              Accepting reality – that consideration of those with DSDs was not included in creation of single-sex categories – is not cancellation.

              Given the variety of DSDs and the various impacts those conditions have on performance means the solutions have to be scientifically based – not emotively.

              The issue is not in regards to one individual. In fact the opening statement pays tribute to Caster Semenya:

              The grace with which Caster Semenya has carried herself over the last 10 years is absolutely remarkable. She has endured criticism, hatred, and an invasion of privacy for no other reason than choosing to be herself. Semenya has emerged as a role model and someone to be admired.

        • Molly

          The 'focus' on testosterone was a sop to claims of unfairness, when the decision was made to allow males to compete in the female sex category. To support this flawed data on the drop in performance of eight MtF transitioners was provided (and accepted) as quality evidence.

          The author of the study was a transwoman, Joanna Harper, who is invested in a particular outcome.

          This study – despite it's failings, was used as evidence for inclusion policies by many sporting bodies.

          There is an informative transcript here from a Q & A session with Joanna Harper and Ross Tucker, that touches on both your points and mine:

          "Below you will find what I think is a fascinating, exhaustive interview on hyperandrogenism in female athletes with Joanna Harper, who you will meet in the interview, but who describes herself as a “scientist first, an athlete second, and a transgender person third”. Harper is unique in the sense that she speaks on this incredibly complex topic from all three aspects – science/physiology, performance and as a transgender person herself. She has been, and is, part of the various panels and groups that are exploring the issue, and so offers insights with authority and experience on what is likely to be one of Rio’s, if not sport’s, greatest ever controversies.

          It’s a long read, this one, but if you’re at all interested, I’d encourage you to do it in shifts, or settle in with a cup of tea and take in her insights!

          I wanted to interview her to give you a broader understanding of the concepts. And so below, you can see every word she has kindly written to explain what she believes are the issues facing women’s sport right now"

          Another source that has input from both sides of the issue is in this podcast and Tweet from Emma Hilton, including Joanna Harper again:

      • Sabine 7.2.2

        The issue is not competition.

        The issue is winning. The ones that at 40 + like Laurel Hubbard identify themselves into female sports don't do so to compete, they do so to win. Ditto for Lia Thomas etc. They don’t win anymore due to age against their peers, or in the case of Lia Thomas never won anything against their peers to begin with and now are ‘elite’ sportive” in the womens category.

        on the international stage, or the grass roots level.

        • Molly

          Yes. That breaking of the sex category does affect winning and achievement, which has a knock-on effect to participation at all levels.

          Someone has created a wiki to document losses:

          • Belladonna

            Absolutely agree.

            Although, as someone with the sporting prowess of a flatfish, it's certainly not personal, in my case.

        • SPC

          For sporting bodies the issue is fair competition, player safety and inclusion.

          • Sabine

            yeah, right Tui.

          • Molly

            Perhaps, understanding 'inclusion' in sport is necessary for discussion:


            Activists who demand blanket inclusion of transwomen athletes don’t understand that eligibility (to compete in a particular category in sport) automatically delivers inclusion. We categorise and sub-categorise athletes in order to achieve maximal inclusion (Parry & Martínková 2021). We set eligibility criteria so that as many athletes as possible can take part in meaningful competition. By having several sub-categories in boxing (bantamweight, flyweight, middleweight, etc.) we include as many boxers as possible; this is only constrained by practical considerations (see, for example, the sub-categories in para-sports). Without the sub-categories in boxing the heavyweights would win most of the time, and the sport would become a ‘battle of the heavyweights’.

            Similarly, we have male and female categories to achieve maximal inclusion. If we did not categorise by sex, men/boys would win most of the time.

            • SPC

              Inclusion at the club level (at higher levels fair competition will exclude TW and also in some, if not all, contact sport due to player safety) is related to the good of the game – participation and the games place in wider society.

              Team sports do not usually have weight grades for adults (an exception is one grade in rugby – the under 85kg grade)

              Team sports such as rugby, football, basketball, cricket, softball and netball etc will determine inclusion on both player safety (their health and safety responsibility) and inclusion (the second factor will be influenced by the nations laws).

              The mere exclusion of TW from international (professional) sport will diminish the numbers of TW participating in sport as a career path via transition.

              • Molly

                Transwomen will not be excluded – they just don't qualify for the women's category.

                They still qualify for the male sex category – and retain exactly the same inclusion criteria as everyone else.

                If they take medication that impairs performance, that is a decision faced by many elite athletes at some point in their career.

                They all have to make a choice: compete at the highest level their body is capable of, or medicate for the condition and deal with any subsequent performance drop.

        • Visubversa

          Hubbard may have been there only partly to lift weights for New Zealand. When being interviewed after crashing out in the first lift that "autogynesmirk" could be seen from space. Much more likely there to be "the first" and to achieve the required "gender euphoria" from being in the women's team.

          • Sabine

            And to win as a 40+ year old against women in their early twenties.

            A washed out old athlete on estrogen injections to drop their 'testesterone' competing against young women in their prime and who have lost to them , and who would have had a good chance at losing to them had they not very badly injured his shoulder previously. yeah, right there are no advantages. No, not at all. s/

            Laurel Hubbard made a mockery out of the Olympic Games. Laurel Hubbard stole the winnings and the place of women. He is a cheat. As is Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges and this young fullah who just won a 'grass roots girls skate boarding competition', and any other male who just must compete against women because they have girls feelz.


            Easiest five hundred bucks this guy could have ever made.

            They show up for the money, the prices and the scholarships,

            They don't show up because they are women and they certainly don't come for a fair competition with their peers.

            Inclusion of males into female spaces makes them Mixed Sex and an open category. It takes an infrastructure that was created by women for women (see soccer, rugby, skateboarding etc) and gives it to mediocre male athletes who either can't compete and win against males, are to old to compete and win against males, or who really get off on the fact that they can publicly humiliate highly qualified, talentend and hardworking women at their own game due to physical advantages, and of course the sexual arousal at being feted as 'brave and stunning' of having access to the female changing rooms and the consent of the women in question be damned.

            Woman either they are private property or they are a publicly owned utility to affirm males who have needs.

            Laurel Hubbard is a cheat, Their deadname previous being was an athlete.

  8. Sabine 8

    Obama promising stuff in regards to "Womans' rights to choose when it was still ok to say Woman and mean gestational carrier. In 2007.

    Sadly for the US American gestational carriers the dude was nothing more then a very well tailored suit filled with hot air.

    • adam 8.2

      Funny thing Sabine, I remember you attacked me with the old "not pure enough" line when I said the democrats were not left wing.

      That said, happy to see you actually come over to the left wing.

      It's back to basics times. Class warfare

      Because class warfare is where we are at, as working women have always, and are going to carry on being, be at the brunt of this reactionary crap we are seeing and it's only going to get worse for these women.

      • Sabine 8.2.1

        Nope they are left, as far left as they can be, In fact they are so left that they can't name a women, can't define a women unless they are biologists, believe that women have penises and men can give birth.


        Be as pure as you want, but don't be surprised if it does not work out.

        As it is now the gestational carriers in the US have no more rights, they can't be defined, they can't be named. But the left has reached Peak Purity.

        Now please teach penis havers how to use condoms. It might come in handy for those that actually think that the gestational carriers are human, and more then just a birthing body, a uterus haver, a womb haver, you know something more then just a fallopian tuber.

        • adam

          I don't care for the distraction of the cultural wars. I've have argued simply for economic freedom and equality, over and over. Or more simply, Socialism.

          When economic rights are curtailed, it effects the lives of women disproportionately every time. And that has been constant over the last 40 odd years.

          Today like many days before it show how far we have come, and it's not far at all. Our rights and privileges are not protected and we have to fight to keep them. One hundred years ago women were thrown in jail for promoting contraception. Time to push back hard.

          The push back is simple too, vasectomy's for all males. It's safe, and simply reversible. Also has a nice ring of the state mandating on men's bodies.

          • Sabine

            and yet, males have failed over the last many years that vasectomies have been available to get one, hence why women in the US are shitting themselves in fear.

            Never mind also the fact that late term abortion are usually those where something went wrong and thus the fetus needs to be removed.

            Men learning how to control their fertility rather then just spray and walk a way is not going to change that. It just means that some might actually take care to not father a child everytime they dip their sausage in the mustart pot.

    • arkie 8.3

      And also today:

      Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has called the US Supreme Court's decision to overturn the Roe v Wade abortion ruling "incredibly upsetting".

      “Watching the removal of a woman’s fundamental right to make decisions over their own body is incredibly upsetting," Ardern said in a statement on Saturday.

      “Here in New Zealand we recently legislated to decriminalise abortion and treat it as a health rather than criminal issue.

      “That change was grounded in the fundamental belief that it’s a women's right to choose.

      "People are absolutely entitled to have deeply held convictions on this issue. But those personal beliefs should never rob another from making their own decisions.

      “To see that principle now lost in the United States feels like a loss for women everywhere. When there are so many issues to tackle, so many challenges that face woman and girls, we need progress, not to fight the same fights and move backwards," she said.

  9. Sabine 9

    also this, the great Democrats change to Title IX

    honestly if i knew that this could not be, i would venture a guess and state that this is a very full hearted attempt at making life for non males who wish to simply stay non males so fucking unpleasant that they simply sell their shoes and go back to being pregnant and barefeet in a kitchen.

    Oh and this is from the progressive left.

    • adam 9.1

      With never a Socialist, Marxist or Anarchist amongst them.

      The US 'progressive left' are not left wing. They are just more of the same liberal shit show that been the only game in town for the last 40 odd years.

    • Molly 9.2

      As another non-male, I agree the progressive left has lost all credibility.

      That they can self-police their language to such a degree, that they exclude the words women and female to adhere to the demands of men is a sight to behold.

      And a decision to ridicule.

      • Sabine 9.2.1

        there was a funny clip with Owen Jones – max purity controller for the Guardian, in an interview with Noah Chomsky talking about that.

        "The supreme court did not acknowledge that women were persons until 1975. snip, prior to that women were property. They were the property of their father and then of their husbands."

        It is a good clip to watch, and if only to see Owen have to listen to someone stating the word Women and he can't tell them off for it.

        • Molly

          "It is a good clip to watch, and if only to see Owen have to listen to someone stating the word Women and he can't tell them off for it."

          Yes, it is.

        • weka

          Lol, Owens' face and body language. I really hope Chomsky is doing the equivalent of a very pointed subtweet there.

      • DB Brown 9.2.2

        Clearly has gone too far. I recall changing how I wrote to exclude gender from statements that might easily include both genders, basically trying to remove the lens where only men narrate produce and star in this place…

        It didn't do anything to detract from what I was saying or writing. It was more inclusive.

        Trying to be an ally to women and minorities. That's where it began (for me). Out of respect for what people were saying.

        How TF did we get here?

        Surely this is the same crap the right's putting up with, where the far fringes have taken over the narrative?

        A line in the sand so ridiculous the left refuse to talk to the right, and vice versa.

        You pondered if it's social engineering. I ponder if it's algorithms amplifying idiot voices to the detriment of all, or a bit of both.

        • Molly

          When Jordan Peterson came on my radar, I like many was introduced to the idea of using 'gendered' rather than sexed pronouns as a 'courtesy'.

          I read Jordan Peterson, many commentators from left, Canadian law professors and other established authorities who convinced me that in regard to "compelled speech", Jordan Peterson was over-egging the omelette.

          I watched this promo – unaware of many in it – now rectified – and thought "That's a simple enough request to honour".

          But at the time, was completely unaware of the political climate, the legislation and the phrase TWAW being accepted as fact in Canada. Successful court cases on the crime of misgendering, have happened.

          We have passed similar legislation here in NZ – and those who are familiar with the Denton's document understand the strategy behind those seemingly empathetic changes to legislation.

          James Kirkup did a good article in the Spectator, which is paywalled but has been archived here:

          There are varying factions opposing varying facets of gender ideology and promotion of such in institutions, legislation, education, health, single-sex provisions and spaces etc – so the conversation is broad and has many voices.

          After taking time to look at the many impacts, the strategy of #NoDebate makes complete sense.

          But if #NoDebate is progressive, what's Left?

        • weka

          twitter was staunchly pro-trans activism for quite some time to the detriment of women. This is not surprising when we look at TW in tech. It took British women MPs to call them into parliament to account for themselves for them to pull their heads in a bit.

          Trying to be an ally to women and minorities. That's where it began (for me). Out of respect for what people were saying.

          Where we had hang overs from male domination, like using mankind, it made sense to talk about humankind. This wasn't erasing men, it was using the language that accurately described the group being referred to, in a non-sexist way.

          Liberals have taken that at the superficial level: it's about inclusion (in that case of women) rather than a deeper analysis (using sexist language in a patriarchal society bolsters patriarchy and lessens the power of women).

          When it comes to trans rights, the same superficial interpretation is just overlayed. We must be inclusive, inclusive is good, exclusion is bad. Therefore including transmen must mean using language that covers all females (women, trans men).

          But it ignores the class analysis. It ignores that women are still one of the most oppressed classes on the planet, and that we do particularly badly under the patriarchy not because of gender identity, but because our biological sex is central to human existence and the patriarchy needs to control that.

          It also ignores that exclusion is useful. Women need women's space because of safety reasons, but also because women's business means we talk amongst ourselves sometimes. Likewise men's business. The reason men's clubs for instance were challenged, wasn't because we should all be the same or some superficial idea about inclusiveness, it was because men refused to share power and men's clubs was a major focal point of the old boys networks still running things.

          In an egalitarian society, where power is shared, men and women can each have their own spaces for their own single sex needs. Trans people can too. Those that want to opt out of the social aspects of their biological sex can have their own spaces. And their own politics, which means that TW can stop colonising women's culture and stealing our positions.

          • Belladonna

            I think a good male equivalent of womenspaces is the "Men's sheds" movement.


            A bloke-only space, totally separate from the Old Boy Men's Clubs network – so not tarred with the political power exclusivity issue – and (AFAIK) never queried or criticised by the feminist movement.

            • weka

              I like the men's sheds and it's good to see men trying to figure out healthy mens culture.

              Don't know how many of those actually exclude women, or if it matters. We don't live in an egalitarian society yet, so there is still the issue of how much easier it is for men to get access to resources and even how much boys get raised to use tools and girls don't. But I can't see a rationale for challenging the existence of men's sheds, seems more like an opportunity to create women's sheds too, and mixed ones.

              • Belladonna

                I think that some mens sheds are open to women or have women's groups use the facilities as well.

                But the driving force behind them is that many of the social community culture things are women only (or very predominantly) and that blokes tend to not network as well as women do. The mens shed movement provides the framework for that to happen – as you said, figuring out a health mens culture.

                The other one that I'm aware of is the Big Brother movement – which is blokes only, but is really targeted for a very specific purpose. It's great BTW – I love what they do.

        • Sabine

          It is social re- engineering boosted by algorithms,

          Someone is writing the code for these algorithms surely, but the law making that makes us all mixed sexed thus the same without difference and needs, that is coming from the Left. And that part of the left is as batshit crazy as is the part of the right that wants to go back to the 18 century.

          Mind, what are women to do, be private property to one bloke, or be a public utility in the services or for the affirmation of and for use by others. Red pill, blue pill, both are poison.

          • DB Brown

            Thank you to Molly, Sabine, Weka & others for taking the time to answer/discuss my question. There is a lot to think about.

            Clearly the law should be to protect us from each other, and in part it has failed, as it fails to protect us from opportunists using PC as a stick to attack others and a shield to hide behind (I'm so misunderstood, I'm the victim here). The rights of women must be protected first – or where is the basis for protecting 'alternate' women?

            How can we elevate the rights of one group over those of women? How basic and daft is that shit. When it comes to my fellow man – wonders never cease….

      • SPC 9.2.3

        The progressive left includes as many, if not more, females than males.

        • weka

          yes, and many more left wing women are gc than left wing men. Funny that.

          • SPC

            Really, who did the research?

            • weka

              are you thinking that there are more gc left wing men than gc left wing women? or it's 50/50? What's your evidence for that?

              The evidence for my claim is following GC and GCF in particular twitter, where UK feminists are organising and have an actual grassroots movement.

              • SPC

                No. And Twitter involves an activist subset of humanity.

                • weka

                  No what?

                  You keep dropping in random soundbites, it would help if you clearly said what you mean. If you think twitter feminism has no relevance here, please explain how.

                  • SPC

                    You were the one claiming

                    more left wing women are gc than left wing men

                    I merely asked you why?

                    And to my point that twitter (and the part if it any one individual is on) is not a full sample of the wider population and not basis for a conclusion

                    If you think twitter feminism has no relevance here, please explain how

                    If, it was not about twitter feminism, it was about your extrapolating from one part of one social media.

                    • weka

                      let me put it this way. It's been my observation that there are obviously more gc lw women than gc lw men. That observation comes from twitter, which has hotly debated the issue of leftist positions on gender/sex, as well as on TS. It's not definitive, but I think it's a reasonable opinion.

                      I can't tell if you think I am wrong, or you just think I shouldn't be making the claim because no research has been done (or presented).

                      The argument elsewhere in the thread that most women support trans rights, I've already addressed. I'm not saying most lw women are gc, I'm saying it's not hard to observe that more women are gc than men.

                    • SPC

                      The only poll data I have seen is here (You Gov aggregates males and females).


                      The breakdown of left male and left female (in the American context Democrat) position shows its about the same. Overall more women than men support transgender rights – this comes from the Independent and GOP females being more supportive than Independent or GOP males.

        • Sabine

          And many many of these females are feeling now homeless as the left is no longer a good healthy and safe home for them.

          Like in the UK were women are quite open about not voting for Labour on the grounds of their sex.

          • SPC

            The majority of support for Labour here is from women. The same applies for the Democrat Party in the USA and also Labour in the UK.

            • Molly

              Women are not hive mind.

              Instead of generalised examples, let's look at the women commenters on The Standard. Left aligned, politically aware (h/t TS) and speaking out about women's rights and impacts of legislative and policy changes within a #NoDebate climate.

              You can see how, even here, attempts are made to silence those perspectives, instead of considering – or discussing them.

              Although, as you say, there are women who support gender ideology demands here, I would consider them to be in the minority on this platform. One of the few that has attempted to have these discussions.

              The noticeable aspect – has been the self-declared right-wing male commenters who have supported this effort. There have been a couple of left-wing regulars that have done the same, but a large number of left-wing males on this platform have actively worked to shut down debate.

            • Sabine

              Well, i am a human with a female sexed body, and you could not pay me to vote for Labour/Green, Labour/Green/TPM, or Labour anything ever again.

              I rather be politically homeless and without a party then be lefty who can no longer define women, who are afraid of saying that entire male in womens sport is unfair and wrong, and who consider women to be gestational carriers at best at worst and insultingly so 'cis' as a subcategory to women. That would be Labour and Greens.

              As for National / ACT these dudes signed the same 'self id' men are women and women need to shut the fuck up' bill, and thus are also unelectable.

              So yeah, nah nah. The sad thing though is that Labour is gonna be below 26.7 % (Cunliffes result in 2014) once enough women decide that they too have enough of this 'gestational, womb carrier, bleeder, menstruator , menopauser bullshit

              Never mind the kids that end up desexed, with broken bodies and need for life long injections and revisions to heal their mutilated sexual organs.

              Go on Labour, loose the next election one non male at a time. Because as Roe vs Wade just demonstrated the left is shockingly bad or unwilling to protect women and their rights. The GOP just did what they advertised since the coming of Roe vs Wade.

              • SPC

                So once enough women have stopped voting for Labour/Democrat, women will have the place back in society that the right (still dominated by male voters) allows.

                The oppressed, at least secure in their acknowledged identity as women.

                Some would form a party of their own, rather than return to that.

                • Sabine

                  Women will either vote for the lesser evil according to them, or they will abstain from voting, or they will organise and create their own Parties.

                  And for what its worth, look what women got in the US for voting the Dems. Men in women sport. Men in women changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards, prison (with women getting raped and inseminated by a penis haver in frock), and some abstract language to describe them.

                  But there is absolutely no reason to vote for Quota Clowns such as the Labour MP to Ilam, former birthing body assistant and lecturer on how to assist birthing bodies in birthing men and future gestatinal carriers or sum such idiocy.


                  But maybe you can entice a few more men to vote for the Party that denies the word women to women. I think you might be lucky to find a few that have no issue with that.

                  And for the record, being left does not mean one has to be a Labour Party flunky that swallows all bullshit thrown at her with a thank you and may i have more attitude. Some of us are just left without a party, and we are quite alright.

            • weka

              The majority of support for Labour here is from women. The same applies for the Democrat Party in the USA and also Labour in the UK.

              What's your point here? Are you denying that there are women who were previously left and now are politically homeless, even as you speak to one?

              • SPC

                I did not know you were no longer left wing, nor that you had had a separation from the Greens. Both those are posts in themselves, I would have thought.

                • weka

                  I wasn't talking about myself. I'm still left wing and still vote and support the GP.

                  You appear to be having trouble following the argument here. There are an increasing number of women who have traditionally voted Labour (or in NZ, also the Greens), who know consider themselves to be politically homeless. I know this because I follow them in twitter, which is where most of the online organising of GCFs is.

                  • SPC

                    The term while speaking to one, is usually used to refer to oneself rather than another.

                    Yes there are GCF and some of them have noted the left wing, as the more progressively liberal, is more inclined to an inclusive position on transgender policy.

                    But even so most of the support for transgender inclusion comes from women and women on the left more than the right. That this marginalises some GCF on the left is no surprise, but many on the left have felt ignored on some policy issue for years yet remained in unity against the right all the same.

                    I get it that women's identity is involved and that connects to the historic safety concern. The question is what constructive path can be taken (as with other issues – fair pay, disability rights, adequate housing and hospitals).

                    • Sabine

                      our identity does not need female centric healthcare or abortions, but our sexed bodies do so.

                      No men who self ids as a woman will ever need female centric healthcare, no matter how many labour MP's might want to pretend that men give birth and that the prostate is a female body part.

                    • weka

                      Thanks for saying more about your points.

                      The term while speaking to one, is usually used to refer to oneself rather than another.

                      I was referring to your conversation with Sabine 👍

                      But even so most of the support for transgender inclusion comes from women and women on the left more than the right. That this marginalises some GCF on the left is no surprise, but many on the left have felt ignored on some policy issue for years yet remained in unity against the right all the same.

                      On the contrary, this doesn't marginalise gcf. Because there is solid history of women shifting positions as they learn what the issues are. On twitter it's known as Peak Trans, and it's a common and known dynamic of women who previously were supportive of transactivism shifting to the gcf view.

                      So the problem isn't what you say it's that activists have pushed No Debate and this has stopped women from talking about it.

                      Myself, I trust women, for the reasons you point to. They're likely to be more liberal. I trust us to work through the politics and come up with solutions that work for trans people and women as well as society generally.

                      Here is a yougov poll from the UK. Have a look at what happens to women's positions when they understand that a TW can be a man with no surgical treatment.

                      I get it that women's identity is involved and that connects to the historic safety concern. The question is what constructive path can be taken (as with other issues – fair pay, disability rights, adequate housing and hospitals).

                      In order to have a constructive path, women have to be free to talk about the issues. At the moment we are not.

                    • SPC

                      We are sorely lacking the detail of the YouGov poll here, it allows for a considered and measured approach (that takes the people along)

      • swordfish 9.2.4

        The Bourgeois Woke rather than The Left (they bear little resemblance to the latter … at best, a severe perversion of traditional democratic left principles … but that’s massively flattering these authoritarian elitists with their bizarre purity spirals & engineered moral panics … in core respects they’ve become the antithesis of the trad left).

        • SPC

          The last good keen aging white working class man left behind by progressive liberalism. Where were you when the ECA passed and once unions were destroyed and we imported "skilled" labour to do the work (outside the bourgeoise office) remaining after offshoring production?

        • Molly


  10. Blade 10

    Been thinking about this chap recently. Don't know why. Here's a nod to the past. In some regards I wish I was back there. The things you miss when your political views and philosophy on life haven't formed.


    ''Paul says she was sometimes horrified by Todd's un-PC content ideas – and occasionally walked off and refused to read the news.[Belinda] was a forced to be reckoned with… stuff that made your eyes water sometimes. It's true for all of my life, the two things I've been most concerned about have been women and Māori. She would sometimes trample the hell out of those two and it would make for some pretty fiery arguments."

    Oh, dear! A contrary view! And it's only 1990.

  11. joe90 11

    The premise of the HBO series Chenobyl was that the reactor shit itself because of design defects unknown to operators who then disregarded protocols, allowing the reactor to become so unstable that it couldn't be safely recovered.

    HBO has released a documentary based on newly available records showing how much about the disaster was covered up by the Soviets, how many who lived in the vicinity had no idea what was going on and how liquidators who died in the thousands were lied to about the risks to their lives.

  12. Poission 13

    Australian residential Housing bubble,larger then the Japanese property bubble of the 1990's is being cited as problematic,NZ which is around 4.96 times GDP is even worse.

    • pat 13.1

      And why they are nervously watching us…..we have a head start.

      • Poission 13.1.1

        Well the RBNZ got ahead of the curve,the agents and politicans kept trying to talk the market up.We have the highest interest rates in the developed economys,and need a substantive correction in the property sector to pay the debt.

        • pat

          Im not sure it could be described as 'ahead of the curve'…more a case of ahead of the other central banks.

  13. Poission 14

    First to move (and late and low) to move to a neutral position,requires both inflation and interest rates to move in opposing directions.Here some inflation is being masked by fuel subsidys,

    • pat 14.1

      late definitely…as to low, thats always going to be an issue with the debt loading….makes 'transitory' look appealing.

  14. Belladonna 15

    Just came across a reference to this vaccine trial – which is intended to provide wider protection across all Coronavirus variants.

    I'm certainly no medical specialist – but it seems as though it will be worth watching out for.

    Here's a NZ take on it:

    • joe90 15.1

      This, too.

      Moderna expects a new COVID-19 vaccine the drugmaker is developing that it says offers protection against the Omicron variant of the virus to be ready for public distribution by August.

      The company has been manufacturing shots of the vaccine, called mRNA-1273.214, ahead of it getting regulatory approval in order to be ready for the fall and winter, when health experts say COVID-19 could flare.

      Clinical trial data shows that the Moderna's so-called bivalent booster vaccine candidate is highly effective against the BA.4 and BA.5 Omicron subvariants of the virus, which Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel said in a statement "represent an emergent threat to global public health."

  15. Today the Wairarapa Times Age published the most vile thing I have ever read in any newspaper and it was written by Mathew Hooton. The Times Age prints endless editorials by right wing whingers but this one takes the cake. If it had not been half and half on the leader page and the op-ed then it would hav e filled one whole tabloid page! This relentless propaganda is becoming more and more ghastly by the day and gthere is no end in sight. What is to be done I dont know but it needs to cease as it is vitiating the fabric of our society.

    • Mike the Lefty 16.1

      Yeah I saw that too. Must have been short of good copy that day. But just Hooton ranting in his usual style – nothing to see here – move on! Most of Wairarapa people wouldn't know who Matthew Hooton was and care even less.

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