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Open mike 26/08/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 26th, 2013 - 168 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

168 comments on “Open mike 26/08/2013 ”

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    • bad12 1.1
      26 August 2013 at 7:39 am

      A strange seeming ‘flip-flop’ from Shane Jones who as early as Friday was reported as saying that He didn’t see Himself as Leader of the Party,

      Having entered the Parliament with big wraps based around His Oxford University education Jones hasn’t impressed and His time on the front Bench under David Shearer made Him conspicuous only by His deafening silence,

      Could He match it in the House with Slippery the Prime Minister, my opinion would say No and Slippery would simply make Him a laughing stock by ruthlessly exploiting Jone’s ‘baggage’,

      In a contest where everyone could be said to have ‘a chance’ i would be so rude as to give Shane Jones none…

      • Tracey 1.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 10:34 am

        agreed, that’s what I thought he said too. Is this his way of projecting that HE doesn’t see himself as leader but others do so he is being a good team player????

    • kenny 1.2
      26 August 2013 at 7:58 am

      He’s there to take votes off Cunliffe, thereby increasing Robertson’s chances. Don’t think it will work, but shows there is still an anti-Cunliffe mindset with the ABCer’s who are not yet ready to let that go.

      • Not a PS Staffer 1.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 8:18 am

        You are on the money, Kenny.

        Jones has no chance but does have a price.

        The ABCs are buying votes with promises.

        There are a number of MPs who need a high list position if they are to get back into Parliament, They are the ones who are in the pocket of Robertson.

        • Olwyn 1.2.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 11:36 am

          This is something I would like to know: will the numbers of votes from the caucus, unions and members be made public? It would be quite outrageous if, say, two thirds of the members were overridden by two thirds of the caucus and just over half of the union vote. This would deepen divisions rather than heal them. At the same time, refusing to publish the results would breed mistrust. There are supposed to be 10 days of public meetings, and a caucus genuinely seeking unity would pay close attention to the members’ responses at those meetings.

          • Lanthanide 1.2.1.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 1:32 pm

            “It would be quite outrageous if, say, two thirds of the members were overridden by two thirds of the caucus and just over half of the union vote.”

            No it wouldn’t. That’s the rules of the game.

            • Olwyn 1.2.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2013 at 2:36 pm

              It may however prove divisive at a time when unity is desired, and lend evidence to claims that Labour politicians are out of touch with their members.

          • weka 1.2.1.1.2
            26 August 2013 at 2:40 pm

            “will the numbers of votes from the caucus, unions and members be made public?”

            No, according to Mike Williams on Nine to Noon this morning.

      • Lanthanide 1.2.2
        26 August 2013 at 8:36 am

        It’s a STV situation where people vote for their first and second preference. If people vote first-preference for Shane and he comes 3rd in the race, his votes are distributed to the 2nd preference nominated by his voters. So ultimately it doesn’t change the race.

        • weka 1.2.2.1
          26 August 2013 at 8:54 am

          So if one doesn’t want him to win, is it better to not rank Jones on the voting paper at all, or to put him as far down the list as possible?

          • Lanthanide 1.2.2.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 12:02 pm

            Make him 3rd preference.

            • McFlock 1.2.2.1.1.1
              26 August 2013 at 12:38 pm

              only if an incomplete ballot invalidates the vote (i.e. all those wonderfuls who’d put a name in the top slot and leave the rest of the form blank).

        • bad12 1.2.2.2
          26 August 2013 at 10:51 am

          Lanth, you will have to have patience to explain that to the myriad of commenters who see Jone’s in the election only as part of the dark plotting of the ABCer’s…

          • Lanthanide 1.2.2.2.1
            26 August 2013 at 12:03 pm

            Personally I don’t see Shane entering as an ABC plot, but merely him wanting to get the Deputy position.

            I think if Cunliffe wins he’ll give it to Grant, but if Grant wins there’s a good chance he’d give it to Shane.

            • weka 1.2.2.2.1.1
              26 August 2013 at 1:53 pm

              Apparently caucus chooses the deputy.

              • Lanthanide …
                26 August 2013 at 2:16 pm

                Yes, but I think that’s more of a negotiation, rather than either the leader or the caucus choosing someone without regards for what the other wants.

    • aerobubble 1.3
      26 August 2013 at 3:35 pm

      He made a good point, that the labour party lost a huge chunk of its vote, and having a much more pro-active leadership – like him – would attract back those voters. As a green voter I agree, labour would do better, but under Shearer-Robertson the Labour party has been a wet fish. So the question is, whose to be Cunliffe’s deputy?

  2. Paul 2
    26 August 2013 at 6:42 am

    “Jones’ hat in ring
    List MP Shane Jones is entering the race for the Labour leadership, saying he believes he can attract blue-collar workers back to the fold.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11114293

    If he wins, a disaster for progressive politics in New Zealand.

  3. Boadicea 3
    26 August 2013 at 7:46 am

    Jones is a not an Electorate MP.

    Jones lacks the strength the comes from fighting, winning and holding a seat.

    Jones would be a disaster for the Labour Party.

  4. Tim 4
    26 August 2013 at 8:05 am

    And fairly bland, poli-speak, cliched performances from both Jones and Robertson on Firstline this morning.
    God spare us! Still – I’ve already decided to put my vote elsewhere, so the outcome of the contest is really a question of whether or not Labour will get either a party or electorate vote back (bearing in mind I’m in Robertson’s electorate).

    • phillip ure 4.1
      26 August 2013 at 10:03 am

      if you think they were a dire pair of clowns on firstline..go to the radio nz website..and listen to their appearances on nine-to-noon..

      ..despite being asked repeatedly about policies to differentiate from national..

      ..robertson said:..’oh..!..we’ve got lots..!’..then he said..’i haven’t got any specific ones for you..but we will be rolling them out..’..

      ..and the rest of it was just wall-to-wall unadulterated aspirational bullshit..

      ..and yes..of course jones is there at the bidding of the right in labour..

      ..it is an attempt to muddy the waters of what is an otherwise clear two-horse race..

      ..and i hafta say..having seen robertson on both firstline and nine-to-noon..i am totally over him..

      ..and electing such a non-person as leader of the labour party will be a disaster/cluster-fuck of epic proportions..for labour..

      ..and will provide a major vote-burst for both the green party..and mana..

      ..so if that is what labour wants..?..that is what they will get with robertson..

      ..phillip ure..

  5. North 5
    26 August 2013 at 8:10 am

    It’s obvious. The devious, “no-show” Jones is there to game the preferences process, to (the ABCs’ hope) Cunliffe’s disadvanatge.

    As for this “blue collar” bullshit, in reality the man’s a pompous, right leaning elitist cynically selling illusions.

  6. Maureen 6
    26 August 2013 at 8:13 am

    Is it just me or is Shane Jones a bit of a misogynist? Doesn’t he mistake careless put-downs for plain speech? Didn’t I hear him refer to women as geldings during the “manban” fuss? And last November didn’t he compare Cunliffe’s expulsion to the backbenches to getting rid of a maggot or termite eating away at the wood of the meeting house? I was indignant at the time because he had achieved nothing in politics while Cunliffe …

    I’m off to the Greens forever if Cunliffe doesn’t win this contest. Robertson is great but not ready. Oh dear.

    • vto 6.1
      26 August 2013 at 8:17 am

      Agreed completely.

      Jones the boofhead. What the fuck is he doing throwing his hat in the ring? It is clearly a manoeuvre, which surely all those entitled to vote in this process will recognise in a flash. I predict the slug will declare well before the vote.

      Jones is only worth ignoring.

      • Rosie 6.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 10:31 am

        Boofhead. Apt description of the day:-)

        • felix 6.1.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 3:09 pm

          Agree all. No idea how he got a reputation as some kind of masterful orator.

          Actually yes I do, there are always going to be a certain number of idiots who are easily impressed by superficial waffle for waffle’s sake.

          Utterly useless bastard.

    • yeshe 6.2
      26 August 2013 at 9:44 am

      +100,000,000,000 %

  7. bad12 7
    26 August 2013 at 8:32 am

    Just listened to RadioNZ National interview a ‘Professor’ of politics for some strange reason, Her claim is that Labour even if the Party changes Leaders cannot win the 2014 election,

    i have to wonder where ‘they’ find these people as i found this particular Prof’s analysis to be that of a simpleton and it seems tragic that University’s have such people in front of New Zealand kids supposedly giving them a decent education,

    Her analysis, and good on RadioNZ for pointing this out to Her, was totally flawed in that Her belief is that Labour have to claw support off either National or the Green Party to ‘win’ the next election,

    The fact that there are some 800,000 registered voters out there who last election did not cast a vote seemed to have escaped the ‘Prof’ and the new Labour leader need only engage 1-3% of these non-voters to topple the present government…

      • Anne 7.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 9:19 am

        Claire Robinson worked in Prime Minister, Jenny Shipley’s office as a political strategist (or some such thing) in the late 1990s. Enough said.

        • Tracey 7.1.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 10:37 am

          not listening to the interview but was that connection divulged?

          • Anne 7.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 10:53 am

            I heard part of it live and there was no reference to the connection. However since that time she appeared on Q&A in her role as a political scientist. She was biased in her musings and haven’t seen her on the programme for a couple of years.

        • karol 7.1.1.2
          26 August 2013 at 11:00 am

          Thanks for the tip: Here is a profile of Claire Robinson:

          Massey University
          Dr Claire Robinson heads the Institute of Communication Design in Massey University’s College of Creative Arts. Claire has a PhD in politics and is an occasional media commentator on New Zealand politics. Her area of research expertise is in political advertising, political marketing, leadership image and election campaigns. Prior to her academic career she spent time as a New Zealand foreign service officer and as a Private Secretary for the Minister of
          Women’s Affairs (the Rt Hon Jenny Shipley). Claire is also a graphic designer and paints on canvas in her spare time. Claire has two children.

        • bad12 7.1.1.3
          26 August 2013 at 11:07 am

          Indeed enough said, no wonder i describe that particular piece of political analysis from that particular ‘Prof’ as the work of a simpleton…

          • North 7.1.1.3.1
            26 August 2013 at 11:42 am

            Watever she is Robinson’s certainly capable of sharp arrogance when challenged.

            I recall emailing her within the last couple of years about some idiotically facile piece of National Party apologism she was up to on Q + A I think. I guess I wasn’t exactly gushing in my email but her response – ” Get fucked ! ” – completely trumped my vigour.

            Massey Vice-Chancellor Steve Maharey agreed with my subsequent email to him in which I suggested it was inappropriate for such rubbish-girl talk to come from the mouth of a publicly paid “associate” professor as she then was.

            • Rhinocrates 7.1.1.3.1.1
              27 August 2013 at 6:56 pm

              Had the misfortune of working with her at Massey some years ago. Not especially bright, no imagination, unable to put together a coherent argument.

              Alas, not the worst of the management there by a long shot.

        • alwyn 7.1.1.4
          26 August 2013 at 12:37 pm

          It might be “enough said” fo you but fairness, and accuracy would require that you point out that her job for Shipley was in a public servant role, and had NO political connotations.
          On the other hand I was not impressed at all with her analysis and her making fairly sweeping conclusions on a sample of 5 elections. Of those five 2 (1999 and 2008) were where we had tired out governments and 2 (2002 and 2011) were ones where the opposition party didn’t seem to even realise that continuing with the same old policies and faces wasn’t going to hack it.

      • Linz 7.1.2
        26 August 2013 at 9:35 am

        That lady don’t know shit from clay. She based her assumptions by looking back to 1990. She should have looked back to 1984.

        • dv 7.1.2.1
          26 August 2013 at 10:46 am

          Interestingly in 84, labour won mainly because Jones’s party took a large % of the vote from the nats as I recall.

          I wonder if the outlier in this is the Craig party.
          Although they would take votes from act and nats BUT provide an collation partner for Nats- not an option in 84.

    • karol 7.2
      26 August 2013 at 9:10 am

      It highlights that the winning candidate should be developing a campaign that is the first step in next year’s election campaign. Robertson & Jones are more focused on just winning the leadership: Short termism.

      Hopefully Team Cunliffe is taking time working out their (2014) election strategy.

      • Greywarbler 7.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 9:43 am

        @karol
        When it comes to having a team, can Cunliffe have a preference for a Deputy which he then discusses with caucus, can he have a short-list of his own, or is it up to the caucus only? It would seem that having someone he could work with and rely on would be the best partnership for the top two.

    • Jackal 7.3
      26 August 2013 at 9:54 am

      Her argument does seem a bit weak! The polls don’t show any clear winner at the moment and the interest that a Labour leadership challenge is generating will likely counter out any negative views about Shearer resigning. As a side note, the non vote at the last election had nothing to do with Shearer.

      I don’t agree that the non voter will miraculously come back to Labour just because of a change in leader. Poverty and hardship are the main reasons people don’t vote, both of which have increased markedly under a National government. Many people simply don’t have the time or resources to be engaged in politics anymore.

      The other issue here is that Labour appears to be divided. It will take time for Labour to show that it is unified and ready to govern. It will also take a considerable effort to convince many that Labour can work constructively with the Greens and NZ First. Whether 15 months is enough time is yet to be seen.

      So at the moment I’m picking another three years of National, as per the usual cycle.

      • phillip ure 7.3.1
        26 August 2013 at 10:20 am

        “..The polls don’t show any clear winner at the moment ..”

        (um..!..the tvone-poll showing cunnliffe at 29%..ardern second..and robertson a distant 4th..?..10% wasn’t it..?..)

        ..sand i don’t buy into yr bleak inevitability predictionof another key term..

        ..between now and the end of next year is plenty of time for cunnliffe to both see off key..

        .. articulate a coherent new direction for labour/for the voters..

        ..phillip ure….

        • Jackal 7.3.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 10:50 am

          I’m talking about the right vs left polling phillip ure, which is too close to call. I think there’s little doubt that David Cunliffe would win the Labour leadership race. Has he announced he’s standing yet?

          There is of course enough time for Labour to get its act together, but whether that time is used constructively is yet to be seen.

          If Labour can show that it’s united behind their new leader, they convey their policy well to the public (especially non voters) and are able to develop enough interest is yet to be seen. A biased media is still their biggest hurdle in many ways. Until they do all those things, then it’s likely National will have another term in power.

          National have always had three terms except for the second National government, which had four.

      • Murray Olsen 7.3.2
        26 August 2013 at 2:38 pm

        “Poverty and hardship are the main reasons people don’t vote”

        Must have been the rich who voted the first Labour government in. Maybe because they didn’t like to see the poverty and hardship of the depression inflicted on their fellow Kiwis?

      • weka 7.3.3
        26 August 2013 at 2:42 pm

        “I don’t agree that the non voter will miraculously come back to Labour just because of a change in leader.”

        Who has said that they will? Most people I’ve seen are saying that Labour will need to make specific efforts to engage the non-voters. Implication is that that wasn’t going to happen under Shearer or the ABCs.

    • mac1 7.4
      26 August 2013 at 8:05 pm

      Her argument as I remember it was that no party has ever come from a position behind this far out from an election as Labour is now.

      My immediate reaction is to think of the Roy Morgan poll which gives Labour/Greens a majority at the moment.

      The only question for me is whether the two will actually agree to a coalition in 2014, rather than the Greens go with National who I expect will be still the largest party then. Conventional wisdom seems to indicate that Labour/Greens is far more likely, if they command a majority or can find a majority between them.

      Though there is still just a little bit of work to be done ‘twixt then and now. First, the Labour leadership ( I will enjoy my vote) and then into electioneering mode. Ah, the smell and sound of the guns are calling…………

  8. geoff 8
    26 August 2013 at 9:31 am

    Shane Jones and Robertson presenting a united front on RNZ right now.

    Hmm….

    A deal done over the weekend in an attempt to shut cunliffe out?

    • Murray Olsen 8.1
      26 August 2013 at 2:45 pm

      Anyone supporting Jones wants a Tory government. He should be expelled. Even he must realise he’s damaged goods. Where the hell do these people get their egos from?

  9. Greywarbler 9
    26 August 2013 at 9:33 am

    I heard that James Caygill, son of David, is thinking of standing in Christchurch seat. Would Labour accept the son or daughter of an axe murderer? A little discernment of past connections and what the name reflects is needed here, even if he is a rabid social democrat, which is unlikely. (I have commented before on the large amount of men’s names that come from the bible. Do they come from wealthier families where the names seems to provide gravitas, probity and conformity with values – so good for conveying confidence in tv endorsements?)

    Talking about David Cunliffe with family, he hasn’t made a real impression yet. If he gets the Leader position and decides on the policies to push and has the methods and cost and outcomes worked out, he can then stress these strongly and who and how they will help all NZs and also employment. Those would be winning words.

    Also promise tighter controls with caps and detailed scrutiny on government expenditure going on each IT project. What a bloody way to throw money down the gurgler. The extent of mismanagement and feckless spending in some notable cases seems to indicate corruption or at the least extreme incompetence, resulting from the Peter Principle. And generally sizing up our present situation with IT, the results show corruption of the theories and scenarios fed to us about how helpful and useful an aid this technology would be.

  10. lprent 10
    26 August 2013 at 9:33 am

    In the interests of site performance, I’ve dropped the feed thumbnails until I look at why it is slowing the site down so much. I may turn off the feed entirely again later if it still causes issues.

    • BM 10.1
      26 August 2013 at 9:45 am

      Don’t know if it’s related but I was running the ghostery plug in on fire fox and noticed my quad core was running at 30-40% at idle.
      Disabled it and problem solved

      From what I’ve read the new version has a few bugs, apparently one is causing pages in tabs to load in an infinite loop.
      https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ghostery/

      Maybe you could ask everyone to disable it on the standard and see if that improves performance?

      • lprent 10.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 11:00 am

        I tracked it down to the bit of code that was causing the server side problem. The plugin is caching the images held for the various feeds at the server – good. However it is not caching the thumbnails that it is producing at 48×48 – bad. Furthermore because of how the images were being called, it was also bypassing the caching on both the APC memory cache and the CDN – *very bad*.

        Consequently whenever the anyone viewed the page, all of the images on the Feed were being reduced and clipped down to 48x48px images. A horrendously expensive and completely unnecessary operation that sucked server CPU when you are doing a hundred or so of them for every page view.

        The front page does exactly the same thing for its thumbnails. However they are prebuilt and stored in the media library. So they don’t cause the same problems.

    • lprent 10.2
      26 August 2013 at 11:16 pm

      Ok that worked really really well. Here is the main web server CPU averages over 15 minute periods over the last two weeks. Date/times are in UTC, so they’re about 12 hours behind.

      I’d already been concerned earlier in the week with the GCSB debates with the average CPU. Prior to the last two weeks it seldom went over 50% on this system.

      You can see the rapid increase on the afternoon of the 22nd with the shearer announcement (spiked on teh announcement followed by the site getting overwhelmed) and that continued throughout friday despite beefing up the caching and putting in refresh rationing.

      On Friday night (well Saturday morning) I kicked in another server which helped a bit on saturday and sunday. But it was max 50% capacity of the main server. It was pretty clear I hadn’t figured out the actual problem.

      This morning I looked at the colossal rise. The debugging code I put in allowed me to pin it down to the RSS Feed, so I turned off the most recent update to that – the images. The CPU dropped away and despite having a lot more traffic than we had on friday, the server started acting well. Cut the second server out after midday, and dropped the cache time down (the spike is mostly due to the cache reloading). Still handled the Cunliffe announcement without problems.

      It was a hot day – not a desperate one. Damn good thing as I was pulling off RC1 for the next release at work and didn’t have time to baby anything.

      I’ll fix the Feed thumbnails later in the week.

  11. vto 11
    26 August 2013 at 9:43 am

    Hands up who believes the US allegation that Syria has used chemical weapons? Wasn’t that one heard before around WMD in Iraq?

    Obama the Key-wise liar.

    Big boys and certainly big toys but at the end of the day they are simply bullies in the playground, nothing more.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      26 August 2013 at 10:44 am

      Its got all the signs of being a false flag. Launching a chem attack on civilians a day or two after UN inspectors arrive in the country? When the inspectors were staying just a few km’s away?

      Assad knows that chem weapon use is the perfect reason for NATO to go postal on him, and such an action is the last thing he would want to provoke.

      • Jackal 11.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 11:26 am

        There is little doubt that a chemical weapon attack has taken place. The Syrian government is blaming terrorists. They have however allowed the UN inspectors into the area where approximately 300 people have died from the attack. This is not the first attack where chemical weapons are likely to have been used on Syrian civilians and rebel forces.

        The UN chemical weapons inspectors have been in Syria since at least May 2013. The Syrian government had previously tried to keep them out of the country.

        You’re assuming that Assad has control of what his forces do and that they respect NATO enough to not initiate war? I can assure you that they have very little respect for foreign forces and there is very little strategy to this war…there is really only hatred.

        It is more likely that Syrian government forces have used the chemical weapons and less likely that those fighting against the regime have used the weapons on their own forces to initiate NATO’s involvement. It is very unlikely that western forces have used chemical weapons against civilians in a false flag event as an excuse to go to war.

        Unlike Iraq, there is very little for the US to gain. The humanitarian reason hasn’t been enough so far to initiate NATO joining the war. If there is proof that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons, then NATO would be fighting the Syrian regime alongside al-Qaeda operatives who have come over the boarder from Iraq. The Al Nusra Front or Al-Qaeda affiliated Syrian Rebels have vowed revenge for the chemical attack.

        In this case, the age old saying ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ doesn’t apply. That’s why the Syrian atrocities have been allowed to continue without proper intervention for so long.

        • Poission 11.1.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 11:32 am

          It is very unlikely that western forces have used chemical weapons against civilians in a false flag event as an excuse to go to war.

          it is a mere coincidence that the insurgents from Jordan who had been undertaking chemical weapons training with UK/US asymmetric instructors, entered the area 4 days prior along with the simultaneous bombings of mosques in the Lebanon.

          • Jackal 11.1.1.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 11:40 am

            Got a link for that? Also, I think travellerev might have a nice used tinfoil hat to sell you.

            • phillip ure 11.1.1.1.1.2
              26 August 2013 at 12:30 pm

              you are so quick to jump to judgement there jackal..and are peddling american empire spin..

              ..some facts for you..

              ..those attacked were in damascus..(ie..under the control of assads’ troops..)

              ..the assad regime..had asked for the un inspectors to come back into syria..in an attempt to clear the previous allegations against them..

              ..and they actually arrived in the country the day before this attack..

              ..so to accept your yapping along with the views of the dogs of war..

              ..we have to believe the assad regime launched a chemical-weapons-attack..on their own people/supporters..

              ..the day after un inpectors..there at the request of the assad regimeto clear their name of previous allegations..arrived in the country to investigate..

              ..really..?

              ..phillip ure..

              • Jackal …
                26 August 2013 at 12:51 pm

                Actually, the chemical weapon attack happened in Eastern Ghouta. That’s an area with strong opposition leanings, and is a major supply route to the front lines in the fighting in east Damascus.

                I don’t see any Syrian regime soldiers amongst those wounded or dying?

                There are war atrocities occurring phillip ure. Negotiations have completely failed. How do you propose to stop those atrocities against civilians from occurring if NATO isn’t to intervene?

                • Pascal's bookie …
                  26 August 2013 at 1:32 pm

                  The question is, how would western intervention stop the atrocities?

                  There is no point putting our toes in unless we are prepared to commit, and I don’t see that comitment coming.

                  • vto …
                    26 August 2013 at 9:29 pm

                    “… putting our toes in …”

                    Is that just a slip of the tongue there P’s b? Don’t include New Zealand or me or those around me in that “west” thanks. That “west” are a bunch of war-mongering murderers just like ghengis khan, the british empire, hitler’s attempts, te rauparaha, or any other prick intent on expansion or grabbing what belongs to someone else. i.e. pretty much every arsehole human who has ever lived.

                    When you talk of the US or the UK or the French, that is them, it is not “us”.

                    Why on earth would “we” consider doing god knows what in Syria?

                    Why would you express that thought in that way?

                    What on earth was going through your mind when you tapped that?

                    Why didn’t “we” do something to stop the atrocity that was Iraq? Or Afghanistan?

                    fucking hell

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      26 August 2013 at 9:48 pm

                      Yeah that could have been clearer.

                      When the western govts intervene via nato or something else, as far as I’\m concerned that’s ‘western intervention’. I might not approve, you might not. But it’s still the west.

                      It’s not wrong to say ‘the US’ invaded Iraq because Michael Moore opposed it.

                      But if an argument is being made that NATO, or whoever, should intervene, but we shouldn’t, then that’s just cowardice.

                      Why the fuck should anyonebe advocating that some other buggers should fix something?

                      Personally, I think Syria is a clusterfuck. But that doesn’t change
                      a) what’s happening,
                      b) what people in the west reckon when it hits there teevee screens, or
                      c) the pressure that puts on our governments.

                      Here’s a brief rundown of some of the complications:

                      https://twitter.com/levinsonc/status/371570807912153090

                      What I’m saying is, before we ‘do something’ we should have a clear idea of what we want to achieve, what that would take, and think about whether or not we’re prepared to do that.

                      I reckon the answer to that final question is “no”. So we shouldn’t do anything because we won’t be able to do anything good.

                    • vto …
                      26 August 2013 at 9:59 pm

                      I see what you’re trying to say, sort of… but this doesn’t necessarily follow at all “But if an argument is being made that NATO, or whoever, should intervene, but we shouldn’t, then that’s just cowardice. ”

                      Why would that follow?

                      Other countries take full advantage of their advantages, be they geographical or military or something else, and so should we. We live right at the end of the world ffs, not in the middle east. We can afford to stay well out of pretty much everything and so we should. There is also far smaller case to be made for ‘standing next to your mates’ than is nearly always made out.

                      Ffs, the British were going to abandon us to the Japs in WWII. The same pommy bastards also failed to stand by us following our most recent terrorist attack by the French government in the centre of bloody Auckland. And then they had the further gall to harangue us over not standing next to them over the Salman Rusdie death threats.

                      Friends like that we do not need.

                      Are there any factual acts by the poms (for example) to counter those fact acts which point to them never standing next to us in the same way? I would like to hear them if they exist….

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      26 August 2013 at 10:04 pm

                      Yeah well, it’s opinion. But I reckon that if someone is making a moral argument that someone has to send their youth off to to die in a meat grinder to prevent something from happening, then it follows that they should support sending their own youth.

                      Can’t see how you can get form ‘x is bad and must be stopped’, to ‘so therefore those guys should sacrifice to stop it but not me’.

                    • vto …
                      26 August 2013 at 10:13 pm

                      “if someone is making a moral argument that someone has to send their youth off to to die in a meat grinder to prevent something from happening, then it follows that they should support sending their own youth”

                      True completely, perhaps we were talking across each others bows.

                      But, curiousity, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of things international – what do you think of the point just above regarding the poms treatment of us relative to our treatment of them since, well, probably Gallipoli if not before… or since forever actually…

                      A couple of recent posts highlighted the fact that what is here in NZ from England is the Crown, nothing else. And the Crown is its own entity separate from the british people and certainly entirely separate from us people here. So much so that ‘our’ armed forces are not ours at all and belong to the crown and serve to look after that crown first and foremost (this has been demonstrated too as I understand it – during the Fiji coup where ‘directions’ from lange were ignored because they had not come from the crown (i.e. G-G)).

                • phillip ure …
                  26 August 2013 at 2:01 pm

                  “.That’s an area with strong opposition leanings.”

                  ..but it is under assad control..so assad attacked his own area of control..?

                  ..the day after the weapons-inspectors arrived..(invited by the regime..)..?

                  ..in an attempt by the regime to ‘clear its’ name of such allegations..?

                  ..care to address that..?..(2nd attempt here..)

                  ..and are you seriously telling me..that from your keyboard wherever..you are able to discern fact from spin..

                  ..and in yr mind there is no way this was done by the american-backed/supplied forces..

                  ..as a (fact-indicating) clumsy attempt to discredit assad/justify cruise-missile attacks..?

                  ..really..?

                  ..no doubt you also supported the invasion of libya..?

                  ..and you can’t see the similar patterns of mis-information/propaganda..?

                  ..again being used to justify military-intervention by the american empire..and their mercenaries..?

                  ..(..many of those mercenaries the same ones america used in libya..?..)

                  ..really..?

                  phillip ure..

                  • Jackal …
                    26 August 2013 at 3:30 pm

                    phillip ure

                    ..and are you seriously telling me..that from your keyboard wherever..you are able to discern fact from spin..

                    Which is essentially what you’re also doing phillip ure.

                    The initial retarded argument was that because Bush lied about WMD’s, that automatically makes the reports about the Syrian regime killing Syrian’s with chemical weapons lies as well.

                    You might note that Germany was also under the control of the Nazi’s when they committed similar atrocities against Polish, Romany and Jewish people in Germany. The area of control has very little significance compared to the people in it.

                    Your argument is that the Syrian regime categorically hasn’t used chemical weapons on civilians in Eastern Ghouta. Mine is that they likely have, mainly because the rebels wouldn’t kill their own families.

                    I’ve seen no evidence that western operatives or those they’ve trained have killed hundreds of innocent civilians in Syria with chemical weapons just to initiate a war. You have nothing to base such an argument on apart from historic references to western agent provocateurs.

                    Let’s wait and see what the UN inspectors have to say eh!

                    • vto …
                      26 August 2013 at 9:38 pm

                      “The initial retarded argument was that because Bush lied about WMD’s, that automatically makes the reports about the Syrian regime killing Syrian’s with chemical weapons lies as well.”

                      It was no such argument at all actually mr jackal, if you had read carefully…. it was a question, around an organisations credibility when its credibility has proved to be non-existent in the past. Like anything John Key says. kapiche?

                      And I just love the way that folk seemingly in touch with the details of who what where in some far flung war torn land equate that ‘knowledge’ with some superior understanding of the human condition and its history (rolly eyes thingy..)

      • Pascal's bookie 11.1.2
        26 August 2013 at 11:45 am

        Are you saying the US launched the Chem attack?

        Please.

        The US and the west in general has zero appetite for getting involved. Countries act in their percieved best interest right? So what interest is there in getting dragged into that clusterfuck? What would they be hoping to achieve, and how could they eventually get the outcome they would want?

        The US simply can’t afford to deploy the forces necessary to control the outcome, particulalrly given that the war isn’t contained within Syria.

        Far more likely is that Assad recognises that NATO isn’t going to do anything more than fire a few missiles (which in the context of a civil war isn’t all that scary) and has decided to use chems for about the only thing they are good for; Scaring the shit out his opponents’ civilian base.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.2.1
          26 August 2013 at 12:15 pm

          The US and the west in general has zero appetite for getting involved. Countries act in their percieved best interest right? So what interest is there in getting dragged into that clusterfuck?

          Any discussion on Western motives and interests in the ME needs to include two words: Israel, and Iran.

          and has decided to use chems for about the only thing they are good for; Scaring the shit out his opponents’ civilian base.

          Assad has been making good military gains using plain old conventional means. Going to unconventional warfare is neither helpful nor necessary to his cause.

          This of course is speculation and doesn’t mean that he didn’t do it, or that out of control elements in his military didn’t do it.

          • Pascal's bookie 11.1.2.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 1:13 pm

            “Assad has been making good military gains using plain old conventional means. ”

            In some areas, and losing ground in other areas. But the insurgency is still raging. The idea that either side is on the ascendency is pretty weak. Using chems sends a signal that no one is coming to help his opponents and that he can do what he wants.

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.2.1.1.1
              26 August 2013 at 1:20 pm

              The US approved the shipment of heavy arms to the rebels a couple of months ago and has also been moving carrier groups into the area. Israel has also launched several airstrikes against Assad facilities. I think those are pretty clear signs of help for Assad’s opponents.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                26 August 2013 at 1:29 pm

                But a) that’s vastly different from wanting to be involved in a shooting war, and b) they did so after umming and ahing for over a year, and c) Israel’s actions are not aimed at ‘helping the rebels’ but at detering Assad from trying to use attacks on Israel to bloster support.

                And carrier groups are used for airstrikes, which are coming and will achieve 2/5 of fuck all in Syria, but will stop western calls to ‘do something’.

    • veutoviper 12.1
      26 August 2013 at 10:06 am

      Each to their own, I suppose …………

      Read the KB post and comments on this ‘expose’ last night when TS was down – and still cannot decide whether I am gobsmacked – or really just don’t care.

      Still, it will be interesting to see what Key has to say – and the general public – when it goes mainstream news here!

    • weka 12.2
      26 August 2013 at 10:07 am

      I don’t think her work or work choices should be judged by who her father is. Plenty to judge in the art itself 😉

      (an ffs Daily Mail, 20 yr old women are no longer owned by their fathers).

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 12.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 11:08 am

        Comment from Facebook says it better than the Daily Mail ever could:

        “Must have a publicist, this is derivative crap that has been done better so many times before, fucking rich kids “look at me” moment, will get art pimp soon”

        • weka 12.2.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 2:07 pm

          Like father like daughter?

        • Murray Olsen 12.2.1.2
          26 August 2013 at 2:55 pm

          Exactly what I think of her photos, OAK. I’m loathe to even call them art.

        • QoT 12.2.1.3
          26 August 2013 at 8:05 pm

          Yes, the Paris College of Art is totally risking its reputation by promoting at Paris Design Week a student whose work is terrible just because her daddy is the premier of a country they don’t give a fuck about.

          That is a completely plausible situation. The idea that tastes in art may vary is blasphemy.

      • Greywarbler 12.2.2
        26 August 2013 at 1:33 pm

        That’s a bit simplistic, the wealthy and powerful always pass some of that on to their children no matter how old or what gender. They carry the mantle and only with a violent effort can they throw it off.

    • tc 12.3
      26 August 2013 at 11:07 am

      Another distraction, she can do what she wants, who cares.

      She appears to have always shunned family pic’s when shonkey is flogging the homely image, at least he knows where she is.

    • veutoviper 12.4
      26 August 2013 at 1:02 pm

      Here is a laugh – Kim Dotcom has tweeted that he want the picture where she has a cherry in her mouth and a red gun for his red “panic room”.

      “This is my “red room” aka panic room. Look at Stephanie’s artwork. It’s a perfect match with the red hair & red gun. pic.twitter.com/1akU1Poa8t

      I would like to buy this artwork by Stephanie Key. Who can put me in touch with her agent? pic.twitter.com/5l0Upxggt6 “

      EDIT – hope these photo links work

      http://t.co/1akU1Poa8t

      http://t.co/5l0Upxggt6

      • yeshe 12.4.1
        26 August 2013 at 1:51 pm

        best laugh in ages !! I love KDC’s constant front footing Key .. may it remain all the way thru the high coiurts next year !

      • weka 12.4.2
        26 August 2013 at 2:10 pm

        He wants erotica of John Key’s daughter in his panic room? Bit creepy.

        • yeshe 12.4.2.1
          26 August 2013 at 3:14 pm

          hmmmmm. i didn’t think the picture was at all erotic in any sense at all …more clumsy and cartoonish so it never occurred to me. i thought it was a kind of pun about the only time he needed to use his panic room … maybe I’m wrong.

          • weka 12.4.2.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 3:46 pm

            “i thought it was a kind of pun about the only time he needed to use his panic room …”

            Sorry, not quite getting that…???

  13. Winston Smith 13
    26 August 2013 at 10:05 am

    If Cunliffe wanted to play the long devious game he could

    not enter race stating he wants to help unify the party
    say he supports Robertson
    solidifies his reputation with the public at large by churning out reasonable press releases, interviews, backing Robertson etc etc

    Because Labour under Robertson would lose the next election he could then (regretfully and with great humility of course) step up and accept the leadership of the Labour party and almost guarantee being the PM of NZ in 2017

    Whereas even if he becomes leader of Labour its not that certain Labour will win the next election…

    Granted Labour has a better chance under Cunliffe than Robertson but might be a better option for Cunliffe to play healer rather than leader

  14. Greywarbler 14
    26 August 2013 at 10:35 am

    Greywarbler 14
    26 August 2013 at 10:32 am

    I have been getting my comments wiped when I have made a reply. Error… I hadn’t put my details – but I had. And usually I don’t need to as I am greeted with them in the identity window. This is a new comment and I have the identity window with my details showing. So does making a reply more likely to result in rejection?

    I just mention it in case anybody has had difficulty. Off to do the chores anyway. Perhaps the system provides a comment lock to stop over-use sort of like a diet control on the refrigerator!!

    Anyway CV what I was trying to do was thank you for a very clear explanation on the direction from which Labour has moved and the change that has resulted. (Would interest everyone on here –
    see 26/8/13 Robertson throws his hat in ring Colonial Viper …
    26 Aug 2013 at1:26am
    (He has really been burning the after-midnight oil.)

    • Colonial Viper 14.1
      26 August 2013 at 10:49 am

      I get a wee bit excitable over this politics stuff and seem to do my best thinking in the evenings 🙂

      • Greywarbler 14.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 11:24 am

        CV
        Thank goodness someone (you and TS too) get interested enough, in bland, stoic, resilient NZ, to get thinking and exercised about politics.

  15. Greywarbler 15
    26 August 2013 at 10:50 am

    I picked up a book at random – Death of a Cad MC Beaton. And came on this piece which seems to echo CV’s comments on the liberal elite and their broken connection with the working class.
    The playwright Henry Withering…was beloved by the Communists, Trotskyites, Marxists, and Liberals. To them, he was what they wanted most, a genuine ex-Eton schoolboy, son of a landed family who had opted to join the class war.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1
      26 August 2013 at 10:56 am

      Greywarber, sir/ma’am

      With my recommendations – Chris Hedges – it’s a long video but even if you watch 15 mins I think you will get something worthwhile from it.

  16. lprent 16
    26 August 2013 at 11:05 am

    Has anyone seen a link to the interview on National Radio this morning with Grant Robertson and Shane Jones this morning?

  17. karol 17
    26 August 2013 at 11:10 am

    Mike Williams just said that Cunliffe will be making a statement this afternoon at 2.30pm from his New Lynn electorate office.

  18. bad12 18
    26 August 2013 at 11:10 am

    David Cunliffe, via Mike Williams on RadioNZ National is said to be making a statement from His New Lynn electorate office at 2.30 this afternoon…

  19. Rosie 19
    26 August 2013 at 11:18 am

    Yesterday’s public meeting in Johnsonville, “No more Dunne deals”, hosted by Ohariu People Power went really well. There was a reasonable turnout and the speakers were fantastic. They covered four aspects of Dunne’s influential voting on bills that have passed and bills yet to be passed.

    Adi Leason, one of the Ploughshares 3 that brought down the Waihopai spy domes spoke about the GCSB, and his personal experience of that day, the trial and other events. What a privilege to hear this humble and easy going man speak. I’ve always admired and respected what they did.

    Helen Kelly spoke about the current employment law changes. One thing that stood out to me was the way in which Helen explained how the govt has manipulated the narrative around the worker – boss relationship, how they have used this time of unemployment and job insecurity as leverage against the worker and created a feeling that the worker should be grateful for work, no matter how appalling the conditions or pay. “you’ll accept what you’re given and be grateful” sort of thing. She spoke of the narrative that the employer is seen as being a charity provider and how this power imbalance creates a climate in which such draconian law can be past with greater ease. (my understanding of Helen’s words, not an actual quote)

    Ian (didn’t catch his last name) from the Salvation Army spoke of the SkyCity deal and how this will affect their most vulnerable clients who are gambling addicts and talked of the rise of cases of gambling addiction in NZ over the years and gambling’s link with poverty and family break down.

    John Maynard, president of the Postal Worker’s Union and one of the organisers of O.P.P spoke of the TPPA and gave some back ground about their work around asset sales opposition.

    It look s like there will be a follow up meeting in two weeks to discuss idea’s around further activity. Being fairly new to this electorate I left feeling more hopeful, and uplifted. There was a sense of that positive constructive anger arising from the audience, that you sometimes feel at meetings such as this.

    If you missed this meeting and you live in this electorate and would like to get involved check out this:

    https://www.facebook.com/events/191126214392342

    • karol 19.1
      26 August 2013 at 11:22 am

      Thanks, Rosie. Excellent report about an important campaign.

      • Rosie 19.1.2
        26 August 2013 at 12:06 pm

        No worries karol. There was a lot more to the meeting but unfortunately I forgot my notebook and only had the back of a tiny shopping list to scrawl notes on. Thanks to authors/mods of the Standard for allowing me to discuss it…..another blog never replied to my request to post the meeting info…….

        Also, big ups to all those busy people around the country quietly going about their activist work and political/social activities in general. I wonder how much work goes under the radar. Am starting to reconsider my facebook ban as I think there is info there that I’m missing out on.

        • lprent 19.1.2.1
          26 August 2013 at 12:29 pm

          I find facebook useful. Provided you remember that it is a completely public forum beloved by (amongst others) jonolists and creeps like Whaleoil and Judith Collins you won’t have a problem. I also find it useful for bringing certain people’s blood pressure to the explosive level with some barbed comments that someone will forward to the recipient…

          • Rosie 19.1.2.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 12:56 pm

            “I also find it useful for bringing certain people’s blood pressure to the explosive level with some barbed comments that someone will forward to the recipient…”
            Chuckle:-)

            I do recall you mentioning the usefulness of facebook to another commenter a while ago who was wanting to find sources of info and news. Hmm. Might have to consider getting over my hang ups with fb, part of which is creepy lurkers such as you mention.

    • bad12 19.2
      26 August 2013 at 11:30 am

      i don’t live in the electorate but did think of coming over for that meeting, my suggestion, if you have access to a photocopier and paper, start a guerilla campaign of letterbox anti-Dunne leafleting,

      You don’t necessarily have to ‘do’ the whole of the electorate in the one hit, so a few packets of copy paper will go a long way until you can access your next supply….

      • Rosie 19.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 12:17 pm

        Thats a good idea bad12. I wonder to what degree the residents of the electorate know or care about the list of Dunne’s ill’s. If not they need educating via leaflet drops, maybe posters, and by other means, what ever they may be. He still continues to be talked up in the local free papers, so there needs to a be counter to that.

        It’s a large and relatively conservative electorate it seems, with a mix of wealth and genuine poverty. (just in my neighbourhood theres a sharp contrast between wealth and poverty, but entire suburbs seem to have either an affluent, average of poor vibe going on) Hope to learn more from the more long term residents of the area at the next meeting.

        • bad12 19.2.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 2:36 pm

          Rosie, talking of Dunne’s electorate i just got back from a little mission out Johnsonville way, to your question whether the average head in the Ohariu electorate cares i am ever the optimist,

          At one time Ohariu was said to be the most monied and most degreed electorate in New Zealand, whether this still holds true isn’t a matter i have put much research into, but as you probably know Ohariu could be said to be one of the crucial electorates along with Epsom for National at the 2014 election,

          The beauty of an anti-Dunne campaign in Ohariu is that while crucial that seat does not need to elect a Labour representative in order to topple this National Government, a National representative being elected in Ohariu could well spell the death of the present National Government,

          i have been there befor, in the Ohariu electorate with a nasty little piece of politicing after the 1991 National benefit cuts, with a crew of 6 we managed to leaflet most of the electorate with what could be best described as an extremely nasty piece of anti-National Party propoganda, in a single day,

          How ‘well’ we did with our little Ohariu campaign i cannot scientifically judge and Lolz, in a life is stranger than fiction twist of fate i am now hoping that Dunne is toppled in 2014 and am only slightly concerned that with the departure of Charles Chauvel National could win the seat…

          • Rosie 19.2.1.1.1
            26 August 2013 at 4:34 pm

            Interesting bad12. (Supreme effort with your leafleting back in ’91 as well!)

            I agree that the priority is to get rid of Dunne in 2014, he is the thorn in the side of NZ. In saying that, Katrina Shanks NAT, came third behind CC in the last two elections, so maybe it’s possible with a really good candidate Labour may be able to win it.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Chariu

            Would Epsom ever dump ACT?

            • bad12 19.2.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2013 at 5:05 pm

              Would Epsom ever dump ACT, my opinion, Yes in the blink of an eye if Banks fails to get the ‘nod’ from Slippery the Prime Minister in another ‘chimps tea party’ akin to the fiasco of 2011,

              Given a free rein to campaign a National candidate is likely to wipe the floor with the abysmal Banks although there has to be many in that electorate with enough smarts to know that a National win in that seat,(as well as Ohariu), would leave National struggling to form a Government,

              The arithmetic based upon the 2011 election numbers says that if National candidates were to win both those seats they would have the same number of seats in the house as they have now, made up of +2 electorate MP’s and -2 List MP’s,

              With regards to Ohariu, perhaps as another commenter suggested a David Cunliffe lead Labour Party can entice Charles Chauvel back from the UN…

              • Rosie …
                26 August 2013 at 6:55 pm

                Hmmm. Thanks for your knowledgeable analysis of the scenario. Feels to me there is a sense of hope returning.

  20. Greywarbler 20
    26 August 2013 at 11:20 am

    Hooten this morning
    “Cunliffe with his extremist environmental views”.
    Comment please – Is this correct? What are they? Extreme, measured against what? Is it exaggerated and mischievous comment from Trumpet?
    Is it a putdown to make Cunliffe sound flaky to the rabid do-nothings-environmentally on the right?

    • Tracey 20.1
      26 August 2013 at 11:24 am

      Hooten trumpeted for Shearer to be leader

      • aerobubble 20.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 3:46 pm

        Hooton is a joke, he panders out the latest line from a right wing think tank. You know you can’t trust anything he says, one way or other, because he attacks himself. for example, when undermining the anti-GSCB debate he said only politically activists watch Campbell live, and care about privacy. I can think of a whole list of non-activist groups very wary of government encroachment from the far right, business, to criminal gangs, who most particularly won’t be watching campbell live.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 20.2
      26 August 2013 at 11:29 am

      You’re still paying attention to what Hollow Matthew says? You think it has any substantial basis?

      Translated, the lying shill is saying that the Right is crapping themselves because they know Cunliffe will probably be Labour leader, and they know he can kick the shit out of them.

      • Winston Smith 20.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 12:00 pm

        Kick the shit of Key, not likely but it will certainly be a lot more even…which means interesting

        • yeshe 20.2.1.1
          26 August 2013 at 3:22 pm

          as you say winsome, ‘not likely’ .. more simply just guaranteed that David Cunliffe will kick the proverbial out of your beloved liar.

        • aerobubble 20.2.1.2
          26 August 2013 at 3:55 pm

          Key is now familiar to the country and his liar mentality is all to ever present to many. Labour lost a lot of votes, people want more than tinkering badly at the edges just too look like he Key is doing something. The case is clear, NZ reliance on food exports alone, in a world when increasing added value means everyone on the food chain has to be paid well, is hardly going to be led by a man who does not believe in paying living wages. An integrated world economy means better models of redistribution of wealth than we have yet to see. Neither, Saudi welfare, or neo-liberal non-welfare models are efficient or stable.

    • weka 20.3
      26 August 2013 at 11:31 am

      This, according to Hooton.

      http://www.labour.org.nz/news/speech-the-dolphin-and-the-dole-queue

      Good on Lynn Freeman for standing up to Hooton’s blatant anti-GP spin.

      • Bill 20.3.1
        26 August 2013 at 2:18 pm

        Just read that speech. Strikes me as reasonably hard headed and honest – within the obvious limitations of a social democratic context. It’s the Hooten’s of the world who are reckless and extremist. Fuck them.

        As Cunliffe says in that speech in relation to achieving necessary change/shifts in perception in spite of vested interests and their insistence of a the three monkey mentality (see, hear and speak no ‘evil’) ;-

        … is it possible to take on the bastards and win? Yes it is. Who gains when we do this? Everyone.

        Indeed.

    • vto 20.4
      26 August 2013 at 11:41 am

      “Hooten this morning
      “Cunliffe with his extremist environmental views”.”

      The environmental extremists in New Zealand would have to be people who willingly eat the environment today rather than nurture it to provide for today and tomorrow.

      The environmental extremist tag belongs firmly with the right wing and especially this National government.

  21. bad12 21
    26 August 2013 at 11:21 am

    Hooten on RadioNZ National talking up Shane Jones vis a vis Jones and Winston Peters get along socially,

    The narrative running through my mind as Hooten was speaking was to ponder whether the 2, Jones and Peters are Porn watching, Whisky drinking Wankers,

    Perhaps wee Matty might enjoy joining such a duo…

    • karol 21.1
      26 August 2013 at 11:23 am

      Yes…. so much spinning going on there from MH, and narrow thinking by MW, I’m getting dizzy.

    • geoff 21.2
      26 August 2013 at 11:39 am

      Gawd he cant stand the greens can he.

      Calling the greens arrogant and a ‘fringe’ party, what a cheek. Apparently 15% is fringe yet he wasn’t labelling nzfirst or act as fringe. He clearly would prefer Labour won outright or work with wintson rather than having the greens in coalition.

      • Lanthanide 21.2.1
        26 August 2013 at 12:15 pm

        I think he’s scared to see the Greens in government, become popular with the NZ public and therefore destroy any chances of future National/right-wing governments.

        I think what’s holding the greens down around 12-13% in the polls is the idea that they’re crazy nutters; something that Key tries to reinforce every chance he gets. I don’t think they’re crazy nutters, and once they get into government they can prove it.

    • Greywarbler 21.3
      26 August 2013 at 11:40 am

      bad12
      You do take the tone here down more than a peg (of whisky perhaps). /sarc
      A peg is an informal unit of measurement of alcoholic spirits; it is similar to a jigger more used in cocktails.) All good fodder for binding politicians together and loosening political restraints. A few, plus a few more, and everything will seem possible. Everything except what is most needed in our society and that is restraints on drinking hours and bottle stores and sale points.

    • Rosie 21.4
      26 August 2013 at 11:59 am

      Lol. Thats a highly disturbing mental image bad12…………….

      • bad12 21.4.1
        26 August 2013 at 2:20 pm

        Lol Rosie, my Doctor will be overjoyed to have such a second opinion which backs up His observation that i present a highly disturbed mental image…

  22. phillip ure 22
    26 August 2013 at 12:17 pm

    i think we need to move onto more grave matters than the trivialities of ego/politics..

    …and to (wo)man-up to a serious problem facing the nation..

    ..namely..the chronic overuse of that punctuation-abomination/tautology..

    ..the sniveling/insinuating/craven blight on the written word..that is the comma..

    ..something needs to/must be done..!

    ..matters are getting out of control..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/elmore-leonard-i-hated-the-film-adaptations-of-my-books-comment-ed-and-why-i-have-much-disdain-for-both-the-semi-colon-and-the-comma-neither-of-which-i-use/

    phillip ure..

  23. Murray Olsen 23
    26 August 2013 at 3:01 pm

    Cunliffe is standing. Great.

  24. yeshe 24
    26 August 2013 at 3:18 pm

    On this good news day, here is another piece .. never thought I would be thanking the tobacco companies for delaying TPPA until next year !! It’s stuck — maybe we can have another chance now stub it out for good .. especially with David Cunliffe in charge …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/9088198/Tobacco-clause-might-burn-free-trade-agreement

    • veutoviper 24.1
      26 August 2013 at 3:58 pm

      Thanks for that link. Great – anything to delay and hopefully destroy the TPPA negotiations is welcome.

  25. Winston Smith 25
    26 August 2013 at 4:23 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9088516/Early-retirement-option-unveiled

    – In other news, if the costings make sense then this should happen

  26. bad12 26
    26 August 2013 at 4:24 pm

    Mike Williams on RadioNZ National just now, ”Labour Party members will be able to vote in the upcoming contest ‘online’,

    You will get a postal vote with a personal code which will allow you to cast the vote via the internet,

    Good skills Labour…

    • bad12 26.1
      26 August 2013 at 4:47 pm

      Mind you a moment after i posted that comment i thought of the poor old postal workers who are facing cuts,

      Save a postal workers job, vote in the Labour leadership election by snail mail!!!…

      • Rosie 26.1.1
        26 August 2013 at 6:59 pm

        Indeed, the chair of yesterdays public meeting in J’ville, Sandra Grey, jokingly said you can bypass the prying eyes of the spy’s under the new GCSB Act AND save the postal service at the same by posting all your communications in the mail!

  27. aerobubble 27
    26 August 2013 at 4:34 pm

    Roads are built for cars, pavements for pedestrians. A basic right to life should be afforded cyclists, since we build pavements, roads, to best protect walkers and road users. Its wrong to allow cyclists to cycle on dual carriageways, or past parked cars whose doors fly out. State highways should be for heavy freight, not for cyclists. Pavements should have speed limits for cyclists, i.e. running speed of a professional runner. Road furniture, signage, should be removed as technology allows, and city centers become car deserts. As a cyclist to see cyclist in Australia on a three lane carriageway was shocking, what are they thinking, that is so dumb. Hilly roads should never have a cycle lane, its absurd, counter to the purpose of a bicycle, low energy movement. New thoroughfares should be built for the needs of cyclists.

  28. felix 28
    26 August 2013 at 9:12 pm

    Anyone doubts that Shane Jones is a fucking idiot should listen to this: http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20130826-0910-the_labour_party_leadership_battle-048.mp3

    in which he says that Labour needs to win “in the high 40s” to be able to “govern with moral authority”.

    FFS can someone take this useless nag behind the barn and put him out of his misery?

    ps Grant comes very fucking close to saying the same thing too, and unlike Jones he’s supposed to be smart enough to know better.

    • weka 28.1
      26 August 2013 at 9:20 pm

      That has to be the stance of someone who doesn’t mind if Labour gets to form the next govt or not. Maybe he likes being in opposition. Does he get paid more if he gets to be Deputy?

  29. karol 29
    26 August 2013 at 9:21 pm

    Embarrassing defeat for government in court.

    A group of disgruntled red-zone residents, calling themselves the Quake Outcasts and Fowler Developments Limited, have won their High Court battle against the Government over the Crown’s offer for their land.

    The Quake Outcasts group, representing about 40 residents, sought a judicial review of the Government’s compensation policy for red-zoned land. They called the offer an “abuse of power”.

    A High Court decision from Justice Graham Panckhurst, released this afternoon, sided with the residents and criticised both Earthquake Recovery Minister Gerry Brownlee and Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority (Cera) chief executive Roger Sutton for their part in the issue.

    • Mary 29.1
      27 August 2013 at 12:58 am

      Brownlee says government will be appealing. If this wasn’t such a compelling defeat then maybe we could accept this. But it is a compelling decision and government shouldn’t be appealing. Government will lose this case at the Court of Appeal, that’s fine, but what’s next is legislation. When this government loses anything in the courts it legislates to overturn the result it doesn’t agree with. That’s not right because the more this happens the weaker our democracy becomes. In this case we’ve got average struggling people who’ve done average things like buy a bit of land, who’ve then been treated unfairly. That’s clear. This government then wants to change this to ensure these people are treated unfairly. It’s as if the government thinks it’s there to defeat citizens, not represent their interests. This just cannot be a society that anyone would want to live in – where government wants to oppose or destroy anything that’s good for it’s citizens. It’s as if government has declared war on its people.

  30. North 30
    26 August 2013 at 9:35 pm

    Native Affairs right now – if there’s one thing that makes me puke it’s the fabulously botoxed and face-worked Tamakis, male and female, dining out on being Maori !

    And as for the Bogus Bishop’s prideful raving about being invited to the US by Martin Luther King’s daughter (was it the daughter, Bernadine ?), I saw her the other night on TV lambasting all the
    evil “-isms” and the “-ias” – homophobia being one of her targets.

    Wonder if she’s aware of the homophobia and the hatred by which the Bogus Bishop remunerates himself so handsomely ?