Open mike 27/07/2020

146 comments on “Open mike 27/07/2020 ”

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1. Muttonbird 1

   27 July 2020 at 6:24 am

   How will Judith respond to last night's poll? She can't just let it go, she will have to attack.

   Bound to be dramatic…
   • Peter 1.1

     27 July 2020 at 7:18 am

     She'll only be attacking because that's her default mode. It's what her gang want and expect.

     Some not in her gang will need to be persuaded she's lovely and cuddly. That puts doing something 'dramatic' in a perspective.

     The poll? She won't be worried about that because she and Gerry know they are doing so, so much better. The big message from the poll is those who want National to have September voting matching this poll need to galvanise themselves, encourage others and get out and vote. And have no Labour MPs, candidates or members do anything dumb.
     • Sacha 1.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 8:21 am

       Looks like Gerry has been given the job of responding. Keeps the easily influenced from joining the dots. Expect to see Collins everywhere when the inevitably better numbers come from tvnz's poll on Thursday.
       • observer 1.1.1.1

         27 July 2020 at 8:33 am

         The numbers might be "rogue", but having grumpy Gerry all over the media in response will help to make them less rogue. Collins alienates people but can appeal to the base, but Brownlee just alienates.
         • Sacha 1.1.1.1.1

           27 July 2020 at 8:35 am

           Wonder if they have anyone else they trust enough to wheel out instead?
           • Gabby 1.1.1.1.1.1

             27 July 2020 at 9:49 am

             They've still got one Todd left, 3rd time lucky?
         • AB 1.1.1.1.2

           27 July 2020 at 10:14 am

           'Rogue' maybe. "Rouge' definitely.
     • Anne 1.1.2

       27 July 2020 at 10:02 am

       And have no Labour MPs, candidates or members do anything dumb.

       There's always one. Lets hope we've seen it happen already and there will no more.
       • gsays 1.1.2.1

         27 July 2020 at 11:56 am

         As the ILG brouhaha showed, Labour MPs can't have done anything wrong in the short to medium distance past, let alone in the next few weeks.
   • tc 1.2

     27 July 2020 at 7:23 am

     Interesting how the MSM will behave. Do they allow her bluster or question her ability and judgement over the non bounce in polling.
   • Devo 1.3

     27 July 2020 at 7:43 am

     They're claiming that their polls have a 10% swing from Labour to National, so around 50% to 35% instead of 60% to 25%.

     Pretty dire if that's all they can claim
     • Sacha 1.3.1

       27 July 2020 at 8:22 am

       It's the only performance metric that counts for their caucus – how many of them have to find a new job after the election.
2. ScottGN 2

   27 July 2020 at 7:37 am

   I wonder if Duncan Garner will be declaring his own network’s poll a rogue this morning on behalf of Judith?
   • Tiger Mountain 2.1

     27 July 2020 at 8:36 am

     Radio silence possibly from Dunky–our local Nat patsy question champ, “Happy Days” to Hosking too!
     • Peter 2.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 9:07 am

       Listening to Hosking is unusual for me but I tuned in at the beginning this morning to see if my predictions about what he'd say were right. I was partly wrong.

       By and large he said the poll was a rogue one, the results were wrong and polls don't mean anything.

       So having worked out it meant nothing, was irrelevant and was wrong he ignored it? Or made a one sentence comment? Hell no! Every sentence was the knife being turned and another bitter pill. And every further word and sentence he uttered made me feel good? Hell yes!
       • sumsuch 2.1.1.1

         27 July 2020 at 11:14 pm

         Never forget 84's real support is a disgusting 45 % and it will return as soon as a finger-click. Make hay while the sun shines for the greater good. Of course, Labour doesn't have 't'Cause' in their heart. Which is to say, anyone furious and with the words that follow that. Any soapbox socialist in the 30s. We need to persuade now again and all we have is orderly progressions to high office rather than righteous anger.
3. Tricledrown 3

   27 July 2020 at 8:14 am

   Winston's grandstanding NZ has had a guts full and are not taking anymore of him. Shane Jones has turned supporters off every time he opens his mouth.
   • weka 3.1

     27 July 2020 at 12:13 pm

     I wondered if that's what's happening too, that people have had a guts full. Covid changed a lot of things including NZ values I suspect. Maybe we're less inclined to tolerate the shady patriarch bullshit now that we've directly experienced what a compassionate govt will do when we are in trouble.
     • weka 3.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 12:14 pm

       otoh, Peters is the master of the bounce back, so let's wait and see. Otooh, it's not the first time he's misjudged the electorate.
       • McFlock 3.1.1.1

         27 July 2020 at 12:34 pm

         Peters has been pronounced politically dead so many times that I suspect his literal death will be followed by half the medical profession witholding judgement for two electoral terms, just to be sure.
         • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.1

           27 July 2020 at 1:35 pm

           😆
4. Dennis Frank 4

   27 July 2020 at 8:42 am

   Helen the lawyer vs Chloe the celeb: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12351075

   Quizzed about Swarbrick's higher profile and name recognition, White told RNZ: "I'd ask them whether they're looking for a celebrity or someone to do this job very seriously." Today, Swarbrick returned fire with a pointed tweet. "Before I fought my way into @NZParliament with @NZGreens, I was dismissed as having no life experience," she wrote. "Now I've put my head down & done the work to huge results, & a candidate preferring themselves the front runner is using the same attacks against me that misogynists do our PM?"

   Helen is just demonstrating how serious she is. Has she also demonstrated that she's serious about decriminalising cannabis? If not, time for her to pull finger. Serious lawyers can add value to parliament if they are credible…
   • Gabby 4.1

     27 July 2020 at 9:56 am

     Why would a lawyer want to decriminalise anything?
     • weka 4.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 12:15 pm

       because it's the right thing to do.
       • Gabby 4.1.1.1

         27 July 2020 at 5:48 pm

         Fair enough, that's a hallmark of lawyers.
         • weka 4.1.1.1.1

           27 July 2020 at 8:01 pm

           maybe that's a reflection of the lawyers you know?
           • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1.1.1.1.1

             27 July 2020 at 8:26 pm

             Lawyers are fine – it's only the 99% that give the rest a bad name you need to watch out for.

             [most lawyers I’ve mentioned this joke to think it’s hilarious for some reason!]
   • Chris 4.2

     27 July 2020 at 9:25 pm

     It's White's lack of respect for Swarbrick that's the issue here. It's one thing to say that you believe you'd serve the electorate better than another candidate, but to say what White said, particularly about a candidate from a party that's kind of on your side, says more about the kind of person White is than anything else.
5. Janice 5

   27 July 2020 at 8:43 am

   The Epsom sheep are so used to being mustered into the polling booth to vote for ACT that if the NP withdraws support for ACT, Goldsmith will have to fight really hard to get the seat back and return to parliament.
   • Incognito 5.1

     27 July 2020 at 8:55 am

     Nope. The party vote in Epsom went to National and only 696 voted for ACT. You confuse it with the candidate vote.

     https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017/electorate-details-12.html
     • Janice 5.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 12:51 pm

       No I did not confuse the difference, I am very aware of how MMP works and don't need patronising. What I was implying was that the Epsom sheep would go into the polling booth on automatic and habitually put a tick by Act, and again automatically put a tick by party vote National.
       • Incognito 5.1.1.1

         27 July 2020 at 1:00 pm

         I’m sorry to hear that you feel patronised. What I meant was that others may be confused when reading your comment, not that you don’t know the difference. You’d be surprised how many others still don’t seem to fully understand MMP. To be clear, Epsom voted for Seymour on the Candidate List and for National on the Party List.

         HTH and have a nice day.
6. Observer Tokoroa 6

   27 July 2020 at 8:56 am

   national naked

   For all their Wealth, their grandeur, their extraordinary strange behaviours, national has entirely ruined it's persona and standing.
7. Gristle 7

   27 July 2020 at 9:07 am

   At what point do nicknames change?

   Are we at the point when the Crusher becomes the Crushed?
   • Tricledrown 7.1

     27 July 2020 at 9:39 am

     The media are calling Nationals disater polls crushing ironically.

     Collins released her massive infrastructure spend after saying we will be spending less than Labour but no costings other than a wild guess which was much higher than Labours spending.

     Goldsmith contradicted Collins saying the are going to cut $8 billion in spending ,yet in Australia their liberal govt,Nationals equivalent Party is spending more than our Labour govt on Covid recovery.Goldsmith hasn't put a foot right yet.He is well out of his depth in how modern economics work.

     Even Boris Johnsto has a better understanding if the polls are right it will do National a favour and he will be gone along with much other of the dead wood (house) of Dirty politics.

     National need to get rid of the Farrers and Slaters Jordan William's etc and get some honest farmers and business people if they want to be taken seriously.Ditch the Carpet baggers associated with the tobacco alcohol and monopolists lobbyists.

     Bridges said he didn't vote for Collins.

     Then Falloon and Collins Dirty retaliation over a Moral lapse as opposed to Sexual Harrassment.

     National have no one to blame except the pollsters.

     JLR one of their ex MP's is going to release more damming info on National .
     • Gristle 7.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 10:29 am

       Crushed Collins sounds like it should be a cocktail. Something bloody with a sour after taste that leaves you wondering why this reminds you of an unpleasant experience you had decades ago: one you hoped never to have to experience again.
     • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2

       27 July 2020 at 12:13 pm

       and get some honest farmers and business people

       Sorry, but NZ's all out.
8. Dennis Frank 8

   27 July 2020 at 9:24 am

   The structure of representative democracy forces participants into idiocy nowadays. Because of the binary oppositional political psychology it induces. Example:

   government announced it was abolishing some of the country’s most nonsensical and restrictive planning rules. Phil Twyford and Julie Anne Genter’s new national policy statement on urban development stops councils imposing minimum parking requirements for new developments, and ensures they can’t restrict building heights to fewer than six storeys in town centres of major cities.

   They’re essentially forced to enable taller buildings with no carparks around rapid transit. It’s a regulations bonfire. An unshackling of the free market. Of course, National’s urban development spokesperson embraced the policy with open arms. Just kidding, she absolutely hated it.

   In what seemed to be a full-throated defence of red tape, Waitaki MP Jacqui Dean called the government’s plan “madness”. She said its laissez-faire approach to parking would cause congestion, essentially claiming that incentivising car-free living will generate more cars. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/25-07-2020/hooray-new-zealands-worst-planning-regulations-just-got-eliminated/

   Clever of the coalition to defuse the Nat's primary weapon, eh? Bureaucratic throttling of kiwis is a long-standing problem, and National's declared intent to gut the RMA was likely to be a pseudo-solution.

   But look at how binary framing makes their spokesperson come across as wacky instead of sensible. The system of representative democracy is inexorable in dumbing everyone down. We need psychologists in the media pointing this out, using examples such as the above.
   • Sacha 8.1

     27 July 2020 at 9:56 am

     You seem to be building a rather large thing out of one provincial dunce out of her depth. Sometimes a fool is just a fool.
     • ScottGN 8.1.1

       27 July 2020 at 10:39 am

       Yeah and she soon changed her tune once she was overruled by her party’s Transport Spokesperson. Having an MP from one of the sprawling, thinly populated rural electorates in the South Island as your Urban Development Spokesperson kinda sums up how lost National is as far as the 21st century challenges facing us.
   • Treetop 8.2

     27 July 2020 at 10:02 am

     I heard the cost of putting in a car park to a build was 50 k.
     • ScottGN 8.2.1

       27 July 2020 at 10:40 am

       If it’s in an underground parking basement the cost can get up to 70k per car park.
   • SPC 8.3

     27 July 2020 at 11:04 am

     They hate public transport, cycle lanes and car free urban spaces beloved by the modern cities of the world.

     The love of cars, extending to car parks – is making this party the dinosaurs of the age.
   • gsays 8.4

     27 July 2020 at 1:32 pm

     Great example Dennis, thanks.

     For ages now I have been wanting the team in red to do this kind of politicking, negate the opposition's barking points by doing a simpler, small example of what the Tories propose.
9. Treetop 9

   27 July 2020 at 9:56 am

   1. With the dissolution of parliament on 12 August does this mean that a caucus will no longer have their weekly meeting?

   2. If so, then how does a political party mobilise and tweak their strategy and manifesto?

   3. Do the MPs who are resigning work from their electorate office right up until the election?

   I do realise there are election debates and press releases.

   12 August will probably be a day of relief for some in the National Party.
10. mac1 10

    27 July 2020 at 10:04 am

    Jamie-Lee Ross coalesces with the Public Party and has to support their conspiracy theories. It sounds like the Red/Yellow Peril has raised its head again.

    Funny how foreign enemies arise when things are not going well at home.

    But, the real learning from this is the fact that Ross was National's chief whip and as such was very powerful in the party, and in sync with its MPs.

    Now he allies with conspiracy theorists.

    Where does National get these thirty something aged men with their loopy ideas and behaviour? National needs a time in the political wilderness to find and recover its soul, review its selection practices, rediscover decency and balance.

    It looks like it will get it. Been saying this for a time, but National has further to travel down yet. When it hits bottom, then it might acknowledge its need for reform.
11. Byd0nz 11

    27 July 2020 at 10:13 am

    As working class boomer balancing on the poverty line, I've observed many elections, disappointed by most, but have had a reasonable personal record of predicting the outcomes. This time I have a shocker that will see the final death throes of the Nats, and not before time. Two main factors sway this for me.
    1. The Covid 19 shock influence.
    2. The Jacinda example.
    Covid has impacted greatly on the politcal awareness for the young vote, the vote that has been predicted in the past, but had not transpired.
    Young people have now awoken and they love to love, and they Love Jacinda, thus my shock prediction. Firstly not a big shock, but Auckland Central goes green. The big two shocks though, is Northland and Epsom go Labour along with marginal Country seats. Bye bye Act, NZFirst and National floundering in the doldrums. Ah Bliss.
    • Anne 11.1

      27 July 2020 at 10:28 am

      Labour might come through the middle and take the party vote in the Epsom seat, but I don’t see the electorate vote for MP changing. That will probably stay with ACT.
    • weka 11.2

      27 July 2020 at 12:18 pm

      Nice one, good to see some thinking outside the box.

      I've been wondering if National will drop below 20%. How far can the go?
      • Treetop 11.2.1

        27 July 2020 at 4:17 pm

        18% my low for them.

        32% my high for them.
12. Gristle 12

    27 July 2020 at 10:30 am

    Crushed Collins sounds like it should be a cocktail. Something bloody with a sour after taste that leaves you wondering why this reminds you of an unpleasant experience you had decades ago: one you hoped never to have to experience again.
    • Gabby 12.1

      27 July 2020 at 12:07 pm

      A Tom Collins, hold the sweetening, add bitters.
13. Dennis Frank 13

    27 July 2020 at 10:36 am

    Two weeks ago Brian Fallow (ex-economics editor, NZH) published this appraisal comparing the economic recovery plans of National & Labour: https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/106021/brian-fallow-examines-economic-priorities-outlined-so-far-leaders-two-main-political

    They are remarkably similar, not just in consisting of pious waffle bereft of any new policy, but also in that the rhetoric is almost identical.

    That's because marketing to mainstreamers only succeeds on the basis of the lowest common denominator of intelligence, and Labour & National compete by copying each other most of the time. Binary politics.

    Bizarrely the fifth plank of Labour’s five-point plan is predicated on the assertion that it will be an export-led recovery, even though in the same speech Ardern acknowledged that the International Monetary Fund expects global output to fall by nearly 5% this year.

    Yes, but Labour must cling to the neoliberal myth. Reality can be postponed for a while yet – until after the election. Why get real too soon? Myth-promotion is how elections get won. Even if the mana of the PM looks like winning this one, better safe than sorry.

    The reality is, however, that the ebb tide already running on globalisation pre-Covid has only intensified. Trade Minister David Parker was scathing about the leaked initial offer from the European Union under that negotiation, while observers of US trade policy warn not to expect a return to the status quo

    Will we see National campaigning on economic growth while faced with a global recession? Probably. Rethinking is just too hard.
    • Gabby 13.1

      27 July 2020 at 12:08 pm

      Well if we're importing even less than we're exporting, that'll work in praxis, eh.
      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1

        27 July 2020 at 12:55 pm

        Ah, yes, the government always goes back to mercantalism. That's what an 'export led recovery' is. Export more, import less and we'll have more money is the implication. They always imply such and then it never really materialises.

        The poor keep getting poorer while the rich get richer.

        What we really need is a development led recovery where we develop the capability to get by without imports. Then we'll likely see a decrease in poverty.
        • Stuart Munro 13.1.1.1

          27 July 2020 at 1:16 pm

          Korea had an interesting take on exporting – develop products in the local market to an international standard – that way locals don't get neglected the way NZ does. A customer base, any customer base, is a valuable tool for innovation, not just short term profit taking.
          • gsays 13.1.1.1.1

            27 July 2020 at 1:39 pm

            Concerning customer base, you are correct, especially your locals.

            I learnt this as a publican in a small rural town. Look after the locals. They will see you through the winters and when the dairy pay-out hits the floor.
        • PaddyOT 13.1.1.2

          27 July 2020 at 2:18 pm

          Perhaps a global solution of working towards "Commonism" the principle of pursuing the common good. ( No, not communism).

          What if we stopped upholding the myth by continually tagging the political system as "neoliberalism " ; a concept long surpassed while we are distracted looking at a box hoping for Schrödinger’s cat to come out alive?
          What if we opened the lid and saw the dirtier, greedier system that has mutated as the norm we truly let reign?
          How do you pose correct solutions if we are fighting a misnomer? If we shift our gaze and name what really exists and that is an accepted creeping of neocapitalism ( eg. save AMI, South Canterbury Finance, Tiwai ?) and onto a global rise of necrocapitilism both overt and covert – dispossess then kill them off !

          From neoliberalism to necrocapitalism in 20 years
          https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/neoliberalism-necrocapitalism-20-years-200715082702159.html

          "Sometimes this manifests itself as a certain fixation of the gaze, even bedazzlement, and then there are attempts to restore the imaginary, untrue, and above all, impossible past, a style of politics and management… called retrotopia. Leaders, managers, and politicians act as if they wanted to turn back time, which is, in itself, an absurd strategy. The past they refer to is a sentimental, nostalgic image that has more to do with the world of fairy tales than real history: "
          https://biennalewarszawa.pl/en/zarzadzanie-w-swiecie-schrodingera/
    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      27 July 2020 at 12:49 pm

      Still, we have yet to see a tax policy from Labour, despite the need to service the rapidly mounting public debt it is piling up. Interest rates will not stay this low indefinitely, or it will be a very bad sign if they do.

      Dammit, the government needs to stop borrowing and start simply creating the money that it needs.

      Yes, put some rules around how much can be created in relation to the economy but a government should never, ever borrow as that just gives the rich a government guaranteed income.

      Its cut-price recovery will be achieved by focusing on the quality of public spending, as if that had not occurred to any Government before.

      National's cut price recovery will, of course, cost us a lot more but will make their funders a lot richer.
14. Sabine 14

    27 July 2020 at 10:43 am

    driving around in middle nuzillind

    lots of hanna tamaki billboards – homes and jobs

    lots of new conservatie billboards – free speech, right to guns, all lives matter (yes)

    some maori party billboards – vote for me / trust me

    some nz first party billboards – drove by to fast to see the message underneath

    lots of national/candidate billboards – vote national

    and a fair consistent labour /candidate billboards – keep moving

    will be interesting to see how this will work out with all the new splinter groups on the right
    • AB 14.1

      27 July 2020 at 3:32 pm

      "with all the new splinter groups on the right"

      Those splinters are from the shells cracked to let the nuts out. Did COVID-19 crack the shells and accelerate the 'nutterisation' of the right? Smarter people than me will opine.
      • woodart 14.1.1

        27 July 2020 at 5:22 pm

        comment of the day.AB
    • woodart 14.2

      27 July 2020 at 5:26 pm

      Ive been driving around lower middle NZ. one thing I have noticed, compared to three yrs ago, way less nat billboards out in the country. dont know whether its less volunteers to put them up and down, less money to spend(dont forget ,they would have spent $$$ on toddler billboards),or less cockies willing to look like tools.
15. Dennis Frank 15

    27 July 2020 at 10:53 am

    Governments operate economic policy in accord with advice on prevalent influential economic theories. Sometimes the winds of intellectual fashion blow these theories away. Austerity theory, for instance.

    In the middle of the last recession, the GFC, the Europeans were very worried about debt. Many took on a policy called austerity, which involved cutting spending. It caused economic growth to fall further, and the result was completely paradoxical in some cases.

    They harmed their economic growth so much that it became harder to manage debt, rather than easier. Reducing government spending is like closing down factories. It costs jobs and hurts people.

    The theory that austerity was the best policy was based on a lot of academic work, including a very famous academic paper by two Harvard economists called Reinhart and Rogoff. The paper came out in 2010 and it said debt was bad because it caused growth to be lower.

    One person bothered to check their working, a young man in his 20s called Thomas Herndon. What he found is they made a mistake in a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet that totally undermined their conclusion. It took a while for people to pay attention to what young Mr Herndon was saying, but eventually they did. We can now move forward knowing that research is flawed: debt is not necessarily a problem.

    https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/economy/coronavirus-australia-how-economy-will-survive-massive-debt-from-pandemic/news-story/a08be4a9cfdf7fcd83a0c787ee14bf22

    The writer explains why the govt in Oz will steer through the pandemic-induced recession via cheap govt debt. Bernard Hickey was in the media here advising the same a couple of months back. The economics paradigm has shifted.
    • Foreign waka 15.1

      27 July 2020 at 5:48 pm

      The fallacy is that constant economic growth is sustainable. It is not and hence we see the up and downs, the growth the recessions and worst still depression when too much money is printed with no value behind. Oh, is this not what the fed and other countries as well as NZ do?
16. Reality 16

    27 July 2020 at 10:54 am

    As expected, Duncan Garner's Newshub whinge is sour and sulky.
    • ScottGN 16.1

      27 July 2020 at 11:05 am

      A vegan lifestyle change for a year will sort him out!
17. SPC 17

    27 July 2020 at 10:56 am

    At the moment we have National supporting charging for the quarantining of returning Kiwis, while the government is going through the process of examination of such a regime.

    For mine, there should be no retrospective charging at all – thus any charging only occurs for those who leave New Zealand after it is introduced.
    • greywarshark 17.1

      27 July 2020 at 11:06 am

      Perhaps those NZs should just regard it as part of the cost of exciting overseas travel. At least they can return to Paradise like the Prodigal Son (and Daughter). They have been able to get away and have some OE and should be helped when they get back. But like education these days, their trip overseas will cost; perhaps it should come under the heading of Overseas Education and it can be put down as a Student Loan. There is no reason why they shouldn't be expected to pay towards this extra cost that is caused by the pandemic.
      • SPC 17.1.1

        27 July 2020 at 11:14 am

        Costs should be known before a decision is taken not afterwards.

        Many have come back in already and faced no costs, why a change?

        PS An option is having two streams – one for those not charged and another for those who are prepared to pay for the cost (we already require non Kiwis to pay charges for coming in – businesses meet the cost).
      • Sacha 17.1.2

        27 July 2020 at 11:35 am

        Quarantine is for the benefit of us already here, not the traveller. How does it make sense to charge them for it?
        • Andre 17.1.2.1

          27 July 2020 at 11:40 am

          Uh, because us already here have already bitten the bullet and paid the price to achieve the COVID-eliminated status the new arrivals wish to benefit from, so it's only fair for them to contribute to the cost of maintaining that status?
          • Sacha 17.1.2.1.1

            27 July 2020 at 11:48 am

            The new arrivals do not have any choice whether to 'benefit' or not. The whole conversation is underpinned by long-cultivated neoliberal notions of 'user pays' but it seems to be more of an emotional rather than logical attachment.
            • Andre 17.1.2.1.1.1

              27 July 2020 at 12:01 pm

              It might not be a viewpoint that's appealing (and personally I'm somewhat closer to to the view that returning is a right that should be able to be freely exercised without incurring a huge cost), but it's neither illogical nor emotional. It's simply one of those things on a continuum where reasonable minds may differ.
              • Sacha …

                27 July 2020 at 12:16 pm

                What's logical about mis-identifying the 'user' if promoting user-pays?
                • Andre …

                  27 July 2020 at 12:19 pm

                  Not gonna be baited into your framing.
                  • Sacha …

                    27 July 2020 at 12:21 pm

                    What, that asking returnees to pay quarantine costs is about user-pays? How is that controversial?
            • Foreign waka 17.1.2.1.1.2

              27 July 2020 at 5:58 pm

              Sacha
              No, it is underpinned by the rights of taxpayers who are basically being blackmailed to fork out the money for expats to resettle and god only knows for how long. Once all is clear, most will bugger off again and kiwis living here have to pay their millions. Lets say, like the education loan that many never paid back?

              Since when is the tax paid by those who have contributed their share to maintain NZ health, education and infrastructure a free meal ticket with no accountability? Really, seriously?
              • Sacha …

                27 July 2020 at 6:44 pm

                Taxpayers' rights? I believe you are making my point.
                • Foreign waka …

                  27 July 2020 at 7:05 pm

                  Taxpayers are the people who are working here in NZ, many on minimum wage. My point is that their rights to a fair return is far greater than expats wanting to go home, many to get a benefit that is not available to them in the country of their choosing. At what point is the payers benefit a user pay to those who have not contributed?
          • weka 17.1.2.1.2

            27 July 2020 at 12:11 pm

            We didn't have to pay $3,000 to go into lock down though, so the cost of that was spread amongst everyone.
            • Andre 17.1.2.1.2.1

              27 July 2020 at 12:27 pm

              A lot of people I know are out of pocket a shitload more than $3000 from the lockdown, even after government assistance. As well as all the other less tangible costs. So I find it quite easy to see where people are coming from when they think arrivals should be expected to cover their costs. Even if I think the counterargument has more merit.
              • Sacha …

                27 July 2020 at 12:32 pm

                I agree with you, just noting the larger resonance of any conversation in NZ about user pays.
            • Poission 17.1.2.1.2.2

              27 July 2020 at 2:53 pm

              And if they are coming home for a holiday,ie short term travellers.

              https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2007/S00227/international-arrivals-in-may-lowest-in-61-years.htm

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/122184704/coronavirus-isolation-experience-at-hamilton-hotel-leaves-guest-impressed
            • Foreign waka 17.1.2.1.2.3

              27 July 2020 at 6:00 pm

              Weka

              Many have paid with their job or reduced hours, part time instead of full time. And we only saw the beginning. Just wait until end of September. We will see double digit unemployment figures.
              • weka …

                27 July 2020 at 6:13 pm

                Yep. And imagine being charged $3,000 on top of that. There seems to be a perception that people overseas wanting to return home are well off and have jobs. I'd like to see some analysis of who is coming home and their situation.
                • Foreign waka …

                  27 July 2020 at 7:14 pm

                  Weka, I meant the Kiwis here in NZ.
                  Expats have been overseas for years and coming home because of job losses and not getting any benefit in the country they have earned and paid taxes. On the suspicion of sounding cruel, NZ is in debt by billions of dollars, many people who have been living here, paying their fair share into the Government coffers and are entitled to assistance are now being asked to pay for those who could not be bothered to contribute. Not only are we now being "asked" to pay 3 k for each returnee, no no no that is not the end of it, we now will have to pay a benefit too. Maybe that comes on top of the unpaid education loan from years back? Sorry, but it is fair to ask of those "coming home" to pay their isolation cost. You will be surprised how many people are actually quite aback with the audacity to "sue" the government because they don't cough up the money. I have my own thoughts on that…
                  • McFlock …

                    27 July 2020 at 7:25 pm

                    overall, it's a pissy little cost to bother with, in my opinion. And even if it were substantial, I don't have a problem with the govt paying it for a couple of years until we have a clear picture of things like vaccines and effective treatments coming online.

                    It's the humane thing to do, and it's also a good way to keep the economy and hotels operating. A multi-thousand-dollar fee is a barrier to entry more than the isolation itself. And govt iso at least figures out pretty quickly when someone's done a bunk (and keeps the rate low).
                  • weka …

                    27 July 2020 at 7:57 pm

                    "Weka, I meant the Kiwis here in NZ."

                    I know. I was pointing out that Kiwis overseas who lost their job because of covid might have to pay $3,000 on top of that. Why them and not the Kiwis at home that lost their jobs? I don't get why they are being judged differently.
    • RedBaronCV 17.2

      27 July 2020 at 6:42 pm

      Or we could head down the aussie route. I'm sure I saw a story where the inwards numbers allowed were so small the airlines sold only business and first class seats. Maybe charges pro rata to the airfare?
18. greywarshark 18

    27 July 2020 at 11:02 am

    What do you think of this Eco Maori? It is more than just Tai Tokerau isn't it?

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/07/27/billy-te-kahika-takes-democracy-fight-to-the-heart-of-government-advance-new-zealand/
    • SPC 18.1

      27 July 2020 at 11:10 am

      Billy T James would build a new character, Uncle Te Kookiha more English than the Northland National Party …
    • PaddyOT 18.2

      27 July 2020 at 3:29 pm

      Why did you use a dehumanising label, just one of those " Eco Maori " is he ? In recent rhetoric about Billy Te Kahika has also been other tags as one type of tactic to blank and cancel out a right in a democracy to have a voice. Rebel, radical, extreme… a joke guy that Billy T James would've mocked. Truly?

      Yes, it is more than Te Tai Tokerau. It's millions globally asking for justice, self-determination and the return of their stolen assets.

      Is Gutteres, Secretary-General UN one of those Eco radicals too when he points out that just 26 of the richest people in the world hold as much wealth as half the global population of 8 billion people?
      • greywarshark 18.2.1

        27 July 2020 at 3:47 pm

        Why don't you stick your head in the ground you jerk Paddy OT. Looking for something to moan about and create disunity.
        • PaddyOT 18.2.1.1

          27 July 2020 at 4:46 pm

          Ouch! What is 'disunify'ing in calling out on tags that subversively nullify others, even if it's inadvertent? Applying a blanket name with a peg on your nose, to dismiss others such as those "____________" over there, is an underlying factor creating inequality.

          Calling " jerk " ( same tactic ) doesn't make entrenched prejudices go away.

          Calling for my demise to go underground is ironical in that the same maggots that will eat me once dead won't be discriminating and will feast on you too.
          • The Al1en 18.2.1.1.1

            27 July 2020 at 5:12 pm

            Eco maori is a contributor here,

            https://thestandard.org.nz/search/eco+maori/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

            though it may have saved your pearls from a hard fist clutching, if the 'offending' sentence was written

            What do you think of this, Eco Maori?
            • Cinny 18.2.1.1.1.1

              27 July 2020 at 5:15 pm

              Great minds 🙂 and all that Allen 🙂
              • The Al1en …

                27 July 2020 at 5:17 pm

                
            • Incognito 18.2.1.1.1.2

              27 July 2020 at 5:35 pm

              Pointing our proper punctuation is pedantic and patronising.
              • The Al1en …

                27 July 2020 at 5:44 pm

                That depends on how you view being told how to avoid repeating an error, yet using it as outlined above, removes misunderstandings and subsequent retaliatory tit for tat posts.

                I'm not the greatest with grammar and punctuation, and I welcome all thoughtful, well intended correction.
                • Incognito …

                  27 July 2020 at 5:53 pm

                  One comma made all the difference!

                  BTW, I should have included an emoticon to indicate that I was joking.
                  • The Al1en …

                    27 July 2020 at 5:55 pm

                    The smiley would have helped but I stand by both commasents. 😆
                    • Incognito …

                      27 July 2020 at 6:05 pm

                      I commend you on your comment.
              • Gabby …

                27 July 2020 at 5:53 pm

                How abour spelling?
                • Incognito …

                  27 July 2020 at 5:54 pm

                  F7
              • greywarshark …

                27 July 2020 at 6:05 pm

                A little gentle jesting is something that regular commenters can add for spice to tease or joust, I think. It's all a matter of striking the right balance. And wouldn't it be good if we all mainly looked outwards at the wide issues and left the fine unpicking to those who want to pick oakum.*

                I have been reading Anne Perry and the punishments and jobs for the unemployed they dished out in old Victorian times, which may be revived in some highly developed countries! Now that's a mighty leap – from the downward direction of contentious people's comments, to the downward gaze of a workhouse resident earning their daily meal.

                * Oakum–picking was the teasing out of fibres from old ropes and was very hard on the fingers. The loose fibres were often sold to ship-builders for mixing with tar to seal the lining of wooden craft. They could also be used to make matting or bandaging.

                http://www.workhouses.org.uk/tour/oakum.shtml
                • Incognito …

                  27 July 2020 at 6:12 pm

                  I agree but some comments are so hard to parse that we either have to make assumptions or take them through the gobbledygook reverse-translator. None of this makes for good debate.
      • SPC 18.2.2

        27 July 2020 at 5:10 pm

        My first questions to Uncle Billy would be

        1. do you subscribe to the David Icke You Tube channel?

        2. does the Chinese money bag man have a plan to reduce inequality, and if not, why partner up with him?
      • Cinny 18.2.3

        27 July 2020 at 5:14 pm

        To be fair…I thought GreyWS was asking the question to a regular TS commentor called Eco Maori.

        I tried to listen to an interview of Billy on talkback, but sean plunket was talking too much.

        My take on it….. people who are against the system often don't vote, we've seen it before with the internet party. Part of the reason is a reluctance to share their personal details.

        What a fascinating election it's turning into, jlr and Billy hooking up, what the actual? Talk about polar opposites, keep your eyes wide open Billy.
        • weka 18.2.3.1

          27 July 2020 at 8:00 pm

          I'd probably have all sorts of problems with what Billy Te Kahika is saying if I looked more closely, but I know people that are into what he is talking about, and it's a big mistake for the left/progressives to ridicule them, call them nutters, and think they will just somehow disappear as a part of the culture rather than growing.
19. observer 19

    27 July 2020 at 1:24 pm

    Collins gets ever more desperate:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/judith-collins-plans-to-grill-jacinda-ardern-on-behrouz-boochani-s-refugee-status.html

    Presumably targeting the vast pool of voters from New Conservatives, Advance and NZ First.

    “She plans to raise it when she goes up against the Prime Minister in Parliament. … “I’m sick to death of this stuff.”

    She has only 4 more sittings to tackle Ardern, and this is how she wants to use them?
    • Incognito 19.1

      27 July 2020 at 1:35 pm

      Is she going to ask the PM if he paid for his ‘managed isolation’ on Manus Island and if not, why not? I’m sure this is the burning question that’s on the mind of Kiwis and keeps them awake at night. What other reason could Mushy Collins have for asking patsy pesky questions during QT in Parliament?
      • left for dead 19.1.1

        28 July 2020 at 8:03 am

        Been thinking about that Op leader going on about crushing Fairy/star dust.Instead of being a blow hard,she needs a vaccum because all she will manage is the spreading of good will to more of the people,truely short sighted an most deffinitely not PM material.

        Edit,,spell check please.a wee note to weka.
    • greywarshark 19.2

      27 July 2020 at 3:46 pm

      Hey pile these awkward points on – she is 'sick to death' of them. So…..
    • PaddyOT 19.3

      27 July 2020 at 3:49 pm

      Best part of the article is media continuing to use the photo of Judith wearing her MAGA hat ( albeit a blue one) then her Trumpism comes out, "He seems to me to have come here on a very dodgy idea of some sort of author's visa or something. Well I'm an author too, and I can tell you I don't think anyone's going to give me a special visa."

      A mind like lightning. One quick flash of light and then darkness.

      “They all eat, they all love me, they all kiss my ass,” Trump reportedly told journalist Timothy O’Brien, author of TrumpNation: The Art of Being the Donald. “And then they all leave and say, ‘Isn’t he horrible.’ But I’m the king.”
    • Treetop 19.4

      27 July 2020 at 4:46 pm

      I'd like to see Collins write a book using a smuggled smart phone. She has such poor insight into why a person in detention on Manus Island for years would want to return there after writing a book about the harsh conditions.

      Maybe some of the conditions in Collin's recent book were of her own making and her choice to write about her parliamentary life.
      • Muttonbird 19.4.1

        27 July 2020 at 5:39 pm

        +1. Anyone who writes a 350 book on a phone gets automatic entry as far as I'm concerned.

        And what's this rubbish the Nats were spouting the other day that we should have consulted Australia first. Australia can get f**ked.
        • Gabby 19.4.1.1

          27 July 2020 at 6:05 pm

          Was he not seeking asylum from Strollya?
    • ScottGN 19.5

      27 July 2020 at 6:00 pm

      And hopefully the government will take the opportunity to remind us all that the government Collins was part of gave Peter Thiel full citizenship in about 12 days, no questions asked.
      • UncookedSelachimorpha 19.5.1

        27 July 2020 at 8:35 pm

        Exactly. Give me Boochani any day.
    • mauī 19.6

      27 July 2020 at 6:00 pm

      Frankly, with that long tousled hair and dreamboat eyes he can stay as long as he likes 🙂
20. Jum 20

    27 July 2020 at 2:42 pm

    What impact will the new party Heartland have on nats? Seen boards in Waikato.
21. OnceWasTim 21

    27 July 2020 at 2:58 pm

    Episode 5: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/a-useless-handbrake-is-released

    Hopefully there won't have to be further episodes – by now I'm hopefully that 'nice' guys' outwardly, aren't necessarily nice people – be they politicians, senior public servants or anyone else pushing their own agendas above all else.

    Hypocrisy and double standards that have become the Normal Normal it seems. Things like moralising, judging and conflating the concepts of arranged marriages and forced marriages on the one hand whilst all the while getting ones rocks off over a conference call to the woifey and whanau with a bit on the side on the other.

    Thankfully Labour have a few more 'decent blokes and blokessess' to hold it all together, and there's always the Greens to fall back on. Let's hope it doesn't take any more episodes because they'd be liable to get very seedy. It might be time for the senior ranks of the public service to have a bit of a hydroxycloroclean – even if it needs to trickle down
    • Gabby 21.1

      27 July 2020 at 6:03 pm

      Well at least there's a new visa coming that lets employees change jobs.
    • RedBaronCV 21.2

      27 July 2020 at 6:24 pm

      I found that article a bit under researched and some what over emotional.

      It added together the student visa's which were just an income earning scam for dodgy private education providers and have only existed since National brought them in, the young under 30 visa's for international travel which have never really been seen as a residency pathway, the RSE visas which are seasonal (and there has been help & repatriation on offer here) plus the other visa's and only around 10,000 of these have been here for over 5 years usually on a motley collection of short term visa's.

      Frankly the ire would be better directed at the employer sponsored visa's who used them for cheap labour or some level of scam then walked away from them, the national party who decided to use visa's to bid down employment wages and conditions for all or the businesses who can't be bothered to train and educate available youth.

      Our Neets unemployment is huge, in part because visa workers mean that the labour force in the early entry years of employment is swollen by half as much (50,000 becomes 75000) .

      Lastly if most of the central Auckland electorate is not native born that is colonisation rather than immigration and services are clearly not being provided to the wider community at any level.
      • OnceWasTim 21.2.1

        27 July 2020 at 6:40 pm

        "I found that article a bit under researched and some what over emotional."

        Unfortunately if Mr Fonseka were to begin to describe his research, it'd require a book, and I'll excuse the emotion considering the damage some immigrants have suffered due to NZ's oh-so-suphusticated best practice policies. And it's not as if people haven't been warning the government of the complete bugger's muddle of things for over the lifetime of the current government.

        Hopefully Faafoi is merely a placeholder as well, even if he is a damn site more ethical and less sleazy

        .
        • RedBaronCV 21.2.1.1

          27 July 2020 at 7:08 pm

          I do realise that some individuals have suffered damage but conflating all the various visa types into one "wrong" doesn't help his story. The student who got stuck here while in holiday transit, could go home but now wants a work visa is a long way from the 10,000 who have been here a considerable time. But plenty of the non migrant population are suffering too.

          And I do agree NZ has had dreadful settings (pretty much under all the right wing governments since 1990 who just wanted to bid down the employment market). Prior to covid, Labour was gradually deflating the visa market, putting an income limit in was one, plus moving up the course and study limits and providing training for Neets. Then there are the employer sponsored – who should sort out their own mess not dump it on others.

          Labour didn't have the margin in the polls to move faster but now everything has hit at once and they are having to deal with a 20-30 year backlog of poor policy and decisions balancing fairness and local jobs and welfare payments plus employer (& scam) situations.

          The only other comment I found odd was the one "doing us a favour". Err if it's for our benefit then umm why the desperation to stay.

          And for the record I have seen several arranged marriages. Female autonomy in the decision was varied – from basically none to a lot- but I wonder if this point of view occurs to the males who benefit from the process.
22. Leighton 22

    27 July 2020 at 4:53 pm

    This morning, Collins told Magic Talk she would not have sacked Iain Lees-Galloway for having an affair.

    "That's between him and his spouse".

    She added that when she passed on the information to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, she did not know herself he was accused of an affair – but she accused the PM of knowing prior to their conversation.

    "I didn't know anything about it, I think she probably did."

    But when asked this afternoon if she thought Ardern had lied, she said: "No I'm saying that I did not know. I simply said to her that I've had a message from someone, an email, saying that they had some information that is even worse than what has come out about our then-MP and I passed it to her and she asked me who it was about and I said, 'Ian Lees-Galloway'.

    "I did not have the detail and I said I didn't want to receive the detail and I asked them to contact her office.

    "And when I said 'It's Iain Lees-Galloway', she said 'Oh yes, right'."

    When asked if the implication was that Ardern had "joined the dots because she already knew about the affair", Collins said: "I didn't know about the affair and I'm not interested in all the grubby details. It's not my business. She needs to front up with what she meant by 'an abuse of office' and frankly that's for her to answer. I'm not her minder and if I was, she would be much better at her job."

    Pressed again, she said again: "She said to me 'Who is it?' And I said 'It's about Iain Lees-Galloway' and she said, 'Oh yes' and then she walked off. So we arranged for me to make sure that everything went to her.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12351277

    This is truly baffling stuff from Judith and raises many questions about her version of events:

    1) Why did she bail up the Prime Minister on the floor of parliament to tell her about a vague allegation against ILG of which she had no knowledge of the substance?

    2) Who is this informant that she trusted enough to warrant telling the Prime Minister about such a vague allegation that ILG had done something "even worse" than what Falloon had done?

    3) Does she accept her informant is a liar or at least has a very skewed moral compass given that she is now saying that she would not have fired ILG for doing something which the informant had said supposed to be "much worse" than what Falloon had done?

    4) Is she not used to people replying "Oh yes, right" and walking away for the sake of ending the conversation and getting away from her? Not because they have the faintest idea of what she is talking about.

    5) How did they arrange for the informant to go directly to the Prime Minister (as he must have if Judith did not know the content of the allegation until it was publicly released) if the full extent of the conversation was the Prime Minister saying "Oh yes, right" and walking off? Unless the reference to “we” is her office.

    6) Is she really suggesting that the Prime Minister was dumb enough to go and fire ILG without bothering to wait for the informant to contact her with the details of the allegation, and then deny she knew about it until the informant contacted her? Or did the Prime Minister just go and tell ILG about her vague conversation with Judith and ILG, knowing that the game was up based on absolutely nothing, immediately spilled his guts about the affair and handed in his resignation?
    • Muttonbird 22.1

      27 July 2020 at 5:40 pm

      She's seeding the media again. Feeding them their lines so she can lie about the PM.
    • Treetop 22.2

      27 July 2020 at 7:02 pm

      Simple. Collins is trying to justify that she is not the CAUSE of ILG being drawn and quartered by her FILTHY politics.

      The problem with the ILG resignation is that it was done to take responsibility for the high standard the PM sets for her ministers. ILG would not have resigned were there not an election in 8 weeks.

      Rowling did not stand up to Muldoon over what was done to Moyle 5 November 1975.

      Ardern needs to put ILG on the party list and tell Collins that Ardern is holding an inquiry into Collins emailer.
      • Treetop 22.2.1

        27 July 2020 at 7:57 pm

        Correction

        5 November 1976.
    • Incognito 22.3

      27 July 2020 at 7:06 pm

      Is Mushy Collins trying to convince NZ that she feels sorry for what she the PM has done to ILG???
      • Treetop 22.3.1

        27 July 2020 at 7:53 pm

        Collins is trying to prove she is so righteous when she needs to front up about what her true intention was, to improve her ratings by damaging a Labour minister.

        Never mind the family of ILG. Being a teenager is not easy when your parent is a minister or a leader.
23. Gabby 23

    27 July 2020 at 5:06 pm

    If it's true that the last lot of absconders popped into a retirement village one has to question their judgment. To say the least.
24. observer 24

    27 July 2020 at 5:36 pm

    In a single day, Collins and Brownlee have done more dopey than you'd expect in a month from any coherent political leadership.

    The latest:

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/newshub-poll-jacinda-ardern-getting-the-benefit-of-so-much-airtime-during-covid-19-gerry-brownlee.html

    Ardern enjoying so much airtime? I can't recall National ever having as much wall-to-wall media coverage as they've had over the last few weeks.

    Sure, it's been self-destructive airtime, but whose fault is that?
    • ScottGN 24.1

      27 July 2020 at 5:42 pm

      Haha. Yeah, Gerry has been pretty much off the rails today. I’d be amazed if he managed to claw back even one vote from Labour. And another day goes by where the Nats are really just talking about themselves (what ring road in Palmy?).
      • Muttonbird 24.1.1

        27 July 2020 at 5:47 pm

        They are obsessed with Palmerston North, aren't they? Perhaps the plan is so get William Wood into parliament then straight on to the leadership.
      • observer 24.1.2

        27 July 2020 at 5:49 pm

        I think we're so used to saying "Why are they doing this? There must be a devious plan, what is it, what are they up to?". Especially after years of National discipline and message control.

        But sometimes it's just a mess. This is one of those times. Like when it's your last day in a job, and you might as well get drunk and photocopy your butt.
      • Cinny 24.1.3

        27 July 2020 at 5:57 pm

        gerry's spent the day doing a trump.
    • Incognito 24.2

      27 July 2020 at 6:01 pm

      The PM can’t win. One moment she has too much airtime, the next she’s a part-time PM.

      I don’t mind giving Judith and Gerry more airtime but could they please keep their mouths shut when they’re on air or camera. It will be an improvement for them as well as for the public AKA a win-win. Thanks in advance.
25. Eco Maori 25

    28 July 2020 at 6:31 pm

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    The weather has been warm and local environment is awesome at the minute Ingrid.

    Ka kite Ano.
26. Eco Maori 26

    28 July 2020 at 7:24 pm

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    That's the way Te Mokopuna are very important.

    Its great to see local Iwi and council working together to provide whare for their Tangata.

    That's good researching the effects rongo have on diabetes.

    That's is what it's all about what the people want not just the few in power in Te Tairawhiti a Maori ward is needed.

    I think lowering the voting age is a good topic.

    Ka kite Ano.
27. Eco Maori 27

    29 July 2020 at 4:51 pm

    🖕To you know who for using the landlord against me muppets.
28. Eco Maori 28

    29 July 2020 at 6:30 pm

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    That's looks good it might help solve our housing short age.

    I don't think it's bright too invest ones Kiwisaver into a business do you know how many fail in the first 5 years.

    Ka kite Ano.
29. Eco Maori 29

    29 July 2020 at 7:18 pm

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    It would be logical to help people who are living on there own whenua in sheds to build a whare.

    That's is cool teaching tamariki about old Maori knowledge on their environment.

    Ka kite Ano
30. Eco Maori 30

    30 July 2020 at 8:43 am

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    Plastic are a problem that needs to be sorted start by charging the prouduce of plastic a fee and recycle and remanufacture the stuff ourselves creating jobs in Aotearoa.

    Congratulations. Paris

    Not just twins it's better to treat all your offspring equally.

    Ka kite Ano.

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