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Open mike 27/01/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 27th, 2016 - 147 comments
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147 comments on “Open mike 27/01/2016 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    27 January 2016 at 7:07 am

    Even though every January in Auckland is now subtropiCal, good gravy this is the worst.

    • ScottGN 1.1
      27 January 2016 at 7:45 am

      You’re living at the wrong end of the country.

    • Macro 1.2
      27 January 2016 at 11:47 am

      Yes even though an El Nino usually brings dry weather to the eastern side of the country – apart from December when we had just 11 mm of rain at Paeroa (closest met recording site for us on the Coromandel) and were looking at an extreme drought over the plains – this month has already exceeded the long term average for rainfall and we are looking at more!
      It seems that with the increase in average temperatures and the shift south of the Halley Climate Zone that our climate – particularly in the north of the country is moving rapidly to a phase in our climate patterns. Humid as hell here today! 20 something feels like 30 something.
      WE will need to wait a few years to see if this is going to be the new normal for el nino. Interesting times.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3
      27 January 2016 at 4:23 pm

      Gills needed.

  2. Paul 2
    27 January 2016 at 7:40 am

    The Herald and Audrey Young pimps for Key.
    Accepts this statement without challenging it.

    “This is a free-trade deal that gives us access to 800 million middle-income consumers. Its economic benefits are about two-and-a-half times the size of the China FTA.”

    Corporate rag.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11580027

    • Molly 2.1
      27 January 2016 at 7:54 am

      News on TV1 was similar.

      Their piece on the government assessment of the TPPA, related the annual costs of the TPPA, and displayed the cumulative benefits.

      Don’t usually watch the news, and don’t think I’ll be doing it again very soon.

    • Rodel 2.2
      27 January 2016 at 10:31 am

      “This is a free-trade deal that gives us access to 800 million middle-income consumers. Its economic benefits are about two-and-a-half times the size of the China FTA.”..
      Yeah. I heard that and thought..Mmm Interesting..then realized it was from Mr Key’s mouth.and consumed a grain of NaCl

  3. Whispering Kate 3
    27 January 2016 at 7:58 am

    Listened to RNZ at 7.00 – 7.20am this morning, up until that time not a dicky bird on the meeting at the AK Town Hall last night over the TPPA . I watched Bomber’s live feed last night and it was excellent. So it wasn’t important enough for RNZ to even bring up the crowd and the very interesting speeches made and inform NZ listeners. NZ First, The Greens and the Maori Party were all completely against the TPPA, Labour’s speech was anti losing our sovereignity but didn’t actually come out and say there were anti the TPPA itself – quite vague I thought. Be interesting if any of the MSM bring it up during the day.

      • The lost sheep 3.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 9:11 am

        A crowd of only 800?
        Gee, I would have thought the Unions alone could have provided a stronger show of support than that.

        • Paul 3.1.1.1
          27 January 2016 at 9:51 am

          Any comment on the actual content of the meeting?

          • The lost sheep 3.1.1.1.1
            27 January 2016 at 10:52 am

            Yup.
            The small public attendance indicates that not many citizens were motivated to go along and listen to it.

            • Paul 3.1.1.1.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 11:52 am

              The content of the speeches…not the people attending.

              • The lost sheep …
                27 January 2016 at 12:44 pm

                The ‘content’ of last nights meeting has been debated endlessly here and elsewhere including the MSM. I’m not interested in going through it all again. (As was pointed out last night, i agree it is likely the U.S. Congress will torpedo it anyway).

                My point is that after all that debate, the small attendance in response to the call to ‘fill the Town Hall’ indicates only a very small % of citizens are buying into the ‘Corporate-National Party Conspiracy / loss of Sovereignty’ content that most of the speakers were pushing.

                There is a lesson there for you Paul. Once you pass the point where you invoke a conspiracy as part of a discussion, you will also have lost your connection to the views of the great majority of citizens.

            • mary_a 3.1.1.1.1.2
              27 January 2016 at 4:15 pm

              @ The lost sheep (3.1.1.1.1)

              You seem to have missed the fact that the meeting was also live streamed through The Daily Blog, which in itself would have attracted a large number of viewers, for those of us who were unable to attend the meeting itself.

              Have a think about that.

        • Chooky 3.1.1.2
          27 January 2016 at 10:44 am

          The Town Hall was packed full…in the report I heard

          • The lost sheep 3.1.1.2.1
            27 January 2016 at 10:59 am

            Ground floor full and a few upstairs. That’s half full in a venue that holds over 1600….anyway you look at it, it’s a very low response……

            http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/295019/critics-say-tpp-not-a-done-deal

            • Tautoko Mangō Mata 3.1.1.2.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 11:37 am

              Like many others I watched on the live feed and sent a donation to
              https://givealittle.co.nz/org/itsourfuture.

              It was an excellent and informative meeting.

            • Macro 3.1.1.2.1.2
              27 January 2016 at 12:07 pm

              There was well over 800. I know, I was there. The ground floor was full, and that is is far more than half the seating capacity. The upper floors were about 1/3 full. That would make around 1200 at least if the seating capacity is as you say 1600.
              I suppose if they were to have said that there were 1600 people then you would have said – “pppppft only that many! ”
              The talk was also live streamed and there were over 10,000 on that site so way more interest than you make out.

              • The lost sheep …
                27 January 2016 at 1:03 pm

                0.09% of Aucklands population turns up to the meeting, and (a claimed) 0.2% of the total population stream the broadcast…

                Now if i was claiming those kind of figures as evidence of public support for the TPPA, you would be saying what?

                • dv …
                  27 January 2016 at 1:09 pm

                  Well those are interesting %- about the % increase in GDP from the tppa!!!!

                • Macro …
                  27 January 2016 at 2:12 pm

                  No wonder you are a lost sheep! What sort of an idiot argument is that?
                  Had the Town Hall been full to overflowing – you would have argued – well that’s only 0.15% of Aucklands population etc etc….
                  The facts of just what this nonsense agreement is about are only just emerging – and they are proving to be as bad if not worse than was feared.
                  So we have a compliant media who only reiterate the lies and propaganda of the Government and make no real analysis of what they are told. What can you expect of the population who are treated by a govt as mushrooms – kept in the dark and fed bullshit? It is surprising that as many did turn up.
                  I drove up to the event from the Coromandel. It took almost 3/4 of an hour to “drive” from tip top corner to the Civic Car Park. The traffic going south at that time was even worse. No need to remind me why I no longer live in Auckland. I would strongly suspect that if one didn’t have to go out on an evening in Auckland these days one wouldn’t. The congestion on the motorway being a very strong disincentive.

                  • The lost sheep …
                    27 January 2016 at 3:16 pm

                    “So we have a compliant media who only reiterate the lies and propaganda of the Government and make no real analysis of what they are told. What can you expect of the population who are treated by a govt as mushrooms – kept in the dark and fed bullshit? It is surprising that as many did turn up.”

                    That’s nonsense.
                    Anyone googling TPPA will immediately have access to all the various view out there on the TPPA.
                    In fact the first link that comes up is http://itsourfuture.org.nz/what-is-the-tppa/, and 5 of the first 10 results are anti-TPPA sites.
                    Are you seriously suggesting citizens are prevented from accessing information freely available on the internet?

                    And The MSM has comprehensively covered all the views on the TPP.
                    In that first page of results the first MSM page that comes up is this..
                    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/76141808/the-transpacific-partnership-tppa-explained-in-five-minutes
                    Please note the article carefully covers the objections to TPPA, including direct comment from Kelsey.

                    The second article from MSM that comes up is this
                    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/76250812/tppa-nonsigning-risks-marginalisation-and-decline-for-nz-economy
                    Once again please note the main point of the article is to express the views of critics of the TPPA.

                    If we go to the Herald, the first thing we find is this report of last nights meetings.
                    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11580056
                    Surprise surprise, it comprehensively reports the critical views of the TPPA.

                    Second on The Herald list is this, published in The Northen Advocate..
                    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11578273

                    ETC ETC ETC. I’ve been following the TPP story through the MS and FREE media here in NZ, and IT IS UTTER BOLLOCKS to allege there is lack of freely available/unbalanced information.
                    The ‘mushroom’ meme is complete bullshit. (For any issue, not just the TPP)

                    The people are well informed and have information freely available to them from any source that wants to put information out there.
                    The reason so few of them supported the meeting last night is that after absorbing all the information, there simply aren’t that many people who are deeply concerned about the TPPA.

                    • Macro …
                      27 January 2016 at 4:28 pm

                      All what you say is true, however the most consistent message, and the one all the articles leave the reader with, is the advice that the TPPA is the propaganda spread by the Govt that the really good for NZ, not to worry about all the expert analysis they don’t know what they are talking about.

                      The people are well informed and have information freely available to them from any source that wants to put information out there.

                      That is complete and utter bollocks as any independent survey of the electorate would show. The full text was only released by the govt yesterday!
                      You may have been following the discussion – but you are not everyone.
                      Just as an aside, what you get as a result of a google search and what your friend or neighbour gets as a result for the same google search, you might be surprised to know, are highly likely to be completely different, based on each individuals web browsing habits.

                    • The lost sheep …
                      27 January 2016 at 5:23 pm

                      All what you say is true, however the most consistent message, and the one all the articles leave the reader with, is the advice that the TPPA is the propaganda spread by the Govt that the really good for NZ, not to worry about all the expert analysis they don’t know what they are talking about.”

                      I didn’t see that as being the most consistent message, and I’m not sure if I saw the media putting it that way anywhere?

                      There has a been a wide range of opinions expressed and if I anything I would say the bulk of the MSM coverage centered around the objections to the TPP.

                      But having been given the info., (such as the widely reported fact that the negotiations were secret), and hearing the various opinions, ‘the people’ are then perfectly free to go and follow their own sources and make their own minds up about what they think and how motivated they are to do something about it. Or not.

                      That is simply democracy, and most people see it as such.
                      But when the weight of democratic opinion goes against either the Far Right or Far Left they always tend to see it as the result of bias or the idiocy of ‘the people’.
                      Much easier to swallow than the idea that the majority of people are reasonable and simply don’t agree with you.

                    • Macro …
                      27 January 2016 at 5:42 pm

                      Actually the weight of opinion in NZ is against the TPPA – or haven’t you read that fact.
                      So I wouldn’t hold a great deal of candle to your opinion that they are all for it or don’t care.

            • Paul 3.1.1.2.1.3
              27 January 2016 at 12:11 pm

              You seem very unwilling to debate the actual content of what Lori Wallach and Jane Kelsey said to a disputed number of people at the town hall.
              It did seems to highlight the misinformation your master Key has been telling us.

            • lprent 3.1.1.2.1.4
              27 January 2016 at 6:53 pm

              *sigh* another idiot sheepie who is too lazy to look it up and probably can’t read anyway.

              http://www.aucklandlive.co.nz/Our-Venues/Auckland-Town-Hall/Great-Hall.aspx

              The centrepiece of Auckland Town Hall is the Great Hall, seating up to 1,529 people on three levels.

              So that is your first lie – I guess you like emulating the idiot liar John Key?

              Second is that I think that the bottom floor was full from the video – that is more like 1200. The upper floors had people (overflow) up there. I suspect the ‘800’ was just wrong. It was a midweek evening event. I was still working at 7pm, I watched on video.

              Thirdly, compared to what? Just think of the right and its events where you are lucky to get 50 fools out unless the government or the National party cough up free grog. Even then it is less than this.

              Basically you are a complete idiot.

              • The lost sheep …
                27 January 2016 at 8:01 pm

                The centrepiece of Auckland Town Hall is the Great Hall, seating up to 1,529 people on three levels.
                So that is your first lie – I guess you like emulating the idiot liar John Key?
                Second is that I think that the bottom floor was full from the video – that is more like 1200. The upper floors had people (overflow) up there. I suspect the ‘800’ was just wrong. It was a midweek evening event. I was still working at 7pm, I watched on video.

                Achully (JK impression), the 0.09 figure I quoted was based on the generous assumption that there were 50% more people there than the report stated.
                1200 in fact.
                If it was only 800 the figure would have been 0.06.
                Bald Fact is, seeking a show of support in a city of 1.3m they could not fill a 1500 seat hall.

                Thirdly, compared to what?

                50,000 at the 1981 Springbok Tour or Kiwis Care protests. 8000 Farmers who protested Rogernomics, or the 1000 that came to the Town Hall for the GCSB Bill. Or the 35,000 that made the effort to attend the ‘Big Boys Toys’ event, or the 5000 that made the effort to get to Piha during the weekend.
                Compared to what is 1200 people an indication of a high level of public support?

                Basically you are a complete idiot.

                And you owning the site doesn’t make that any less of a bullshit and pointless ad hominem cheap shot.

              • Chooky …
                28 January 2016 at 5:34 pm

                +100 Iprent…have to agree with you

      • cogito 3.1.2
        27 January 2016 at 9:37 am

        I liked this bit:

        “But one audience member, Ian, said he was furious with the deal.

        “I’ve got to the stage now where I think petitions and protests are part of a social contract where people who are outraged think ‘Oh I’ve done something, I’ve done something’ and the Government just goes ahead and ignores them anyway.

        “I think what we need is not protests and petitions but riots. We need to change this Government’s opinion and we need to change everyone else’s opinion and make them wonder why are people behaving the way they are. I think we need mass civil disobedience.” ”
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/295019/critics-say-tpp-not-a-done-deal

      • Andre 3.1.3
        27 January 2016 at 9:48 am

        I find it incredibly ironic that the route to protecting New Zealand’s best interests lies in a bunch of completely-out-of-their-mind Republicans motivated entirely by partisan malice towards Obama going even further out of their minds and taking a few more of their slightly-less-irrational colleagues with them.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.3.1
          27 January 2016 at 10:04 am

          Don’t mix up the decision making and attitudes of the oligarchic elite with the views and anxieties of ordinary Americans struggling to get ahead or stay ahead.

          • Andre 3.1.3.1.1
            27 January 2016 at 10:07 am

            I was referring to members of congress, both House and Senate.

            • Macro 3.1.3.1.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 12:15 pm

              Yep! We may or may not be saved by the greedies who want more extortionate clauses in the Agreement not less!
              Just a small handful have to change their mind one way or the other. It’s no done deal yet.
              But the scary thing is this:
              If our idiotic govt ratify this deal – before the thing is signed off by congress – and they (congress) then only agree to new extortionate clauses that further lengthen the time frame for IP etc (as the republicans want) then we are further shafted!

              • Andre …
                27 January 2016 at 12:18 pm

                I thought the TPA legislation that has already been passed means Congress has to put it to a straight yes/no vote, they can’t try to tinker with it.

                • Macro …
                  27 January 2016 at 12:24 pm

                  That was what I thought too – until listening to Lori last night – it seemed that that was a possibility. Maybe I got her wrong – but she was stressing that many in the GOP were against TTPA because the time limits on generic drugs etc was not long enough for big pharmac to collect even more money. It seemed that the issue was that they would only agree if the got their way.

                • Craig H …
                  27 January 2016 at 10:01 pm

                  Theoretically they can’t tinker with it, but they could repeal the legislation if they really wanted to. It wouldn’t surprise me either way, to be honest.

              • Stuart Munro …
                27 January 2016 at 2:16 pm

                Who is it that rush in where angels fear to tread? The Gnats. Of course.

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.2
      27 January 2016 at 9:10 am

      Despite the rest of the household disconnecting from our stretched broadband so we could watch the live stream…we kept losing the feed. Very annoying…does anyone know if it was recorded? And available?

    • Gangnam Style 3.3
      27 January 2016 at 9:44 am

      The Sound just had something about some Farmers (Fonterra or Farm Fed) were in support of it. Followed by intelectual heavy weight Leah Panapa saying she agrees with Winston Peters that the Maori Party are “brownmailing” John Key & the other presenters all agreed & one guy mentioned “& you & Winston are maori followed by a joke about Winston being half scottish half Maori so he tanned easily but was cheap.” No wonder Key likes to go on those stations.

  4. Paul 4
    27 January 2016 at 8:28 am

    I wrote this post two days ago this post two days ago suggesting that New Zealand is highly vulnerable to the oncoming economic tsunami.

    Keep Calm and Carry On

    Seems like one of the word’s major rating agency agrees with me.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201786930/fitch-revises-down-nz's-economic-outlook

    • Puckish Rogue 4.1
      27 January 2016 at 9:05 am

      You mean this:

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11580203

      “Fitch Ratings has affirmed its AA credit rating for New Zealand, but says the outlook for our agricultural exports means future growth won’t be quite as strong.”

      “The report from Fitch said GDP growth for New Zealand was still expected to pick up to 2.4 per cent and 2.6 per cent in 2016 and 2017 respectively – a slower pace than it forecast in its review in July last year.”

      • Paul 4.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 9:42 am

        Yes, this bit..

        ‘Ratings agency Fitch has highlighted weaker prices for New Zealand’s agriculture exports – including dairy – for its revised outlook on growth.
        It has left the country’s sovereign rating unchanged at AA, but had revised-down its assessment of New Zealand’s near-term growth prospects because it said the outlook for prices of the country’s agricultural exports had deteriorated.’

        Care to comment on Rod Oram’s outlook, pr?

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201786811/business-commentator-rod-oram

        • Puckish Rogue 4.1.1.1
          27 January 2016 at 9:56 am

          As the link you referenced states we have growth, lower then expected growth yes but growth that’s better than most

          • Paul 4.1.1.1.1
            27 January 2016 at 10:14 am

            Care to comment on Rod Oram’s outlook about the TPP , pr?

            • Puckish Rogue 4.1.1.1.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 10:26 am

              Why? Its his opinion nothing more nothing less, it doesn’t change the outlook that NZs GDP is growing and whats more important GDP growth or Rod Orams opinion?

              It has as much relevance as this opinion

              http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72604363/Former-PM-Clark-backs-controversial-TPPA-trade-deal

              Well actually you’d say it has more relevance all things considered

              • Paul …
                27 January 2016 at 11:51 am

                So you don’t care to comment.
                I was interested to see how you argued against his clear concerns about the TPP.

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  27 January 2016 at 11:55 am

                  I can’t actually argue against it specifically as my work won’t allow me (well everyone really) certain functions on the internet so I can’t listen to it

                  However my points do stand, which opinion is considered more relevant Rod Oram or Helen Clark

                  • Andre …
                    27 January 2016 at 11:59 am

                    You’re spending your working day arguing with strangers on the internet? Is that your job? Or are you misusing the time your employer is paying you for?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      27 January 2016 at 12:14 pm

                      You can judge how busy am I and what times I’m busy by how many comments I post and when I post them

                    • Paul …
                      27 January 2016 at 12:27 pm

                      But if you’re not paid what possible motivation do you have for coming on this site day after day looking for an argument?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      27 January 2016 at 12:40 pm

                      Same as most of the people on here I guess. I care about this country, I believe National under John Key is the best current option for NZ (ok not this so much) and I like to see what other other peoples opinions are

                  • Paul …
                    27 January 2016 at 12:02 pm

                    I was simply interested in your opinion about Oram’s critique of the TPP.

                    ‘I can’t actually argue against it specifically as my work won’t allow me’

                    2 questions.
                    Are you only allowed to troll in certain areas?
                    Haven’t your masters given your lines to make this argument?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      27 January 2016 at 12:17 pm

                      I realise that you’re making the suggestion I get paid for doing this (I wish) but no its simply certain apps and web pages aren’t allowed to be accessed

                      Theres some security measures at play I guess

          • BlueSky 4.1.1.1.2
            27 January 2016 at 11:57 am

            All growth is not good growth. See cancer.

  5. Paul 5
    27 January 2016 at 8:58 am

    ‘From heatwave to violent storms: New Zealand’s mad weather’
    Amazing that the Herald still can write an article about the weather without any reference to climate change or El Nino.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11580068

    The dumbing down of NZ continues apace.
    Won’t be long till we’ve reached this level of ignorance…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

  6. Michael 6
    27 January 2016 at 9:23 am

    http://thehill.com/policy/finance/267065-trade-notably-absent-from-white-house-recap-of-pelosi-reid-meeting

    Interesting article. Obama met with Democratic leaders about the legislative agenda and the TPPA was not really discussed. Many Democrats oppose the TPPA, as do all three Democrats running for President.

  7. Chooky 7
    27 January 2016 at 9:38 am

    Big risks for New Zealand with the signing of the TPPA…Rod Oram spells it out

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201786811/business-commentator-rod-oram

    “Business commentator Rod Oram on the recently available New Zealand research papers on the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, and New Zealand’s role in the TPPA.”

    • Rodel 7.1
      27 January 2016 at 11:10 am

      Thanks Chooky
      “Business commentator Rod Oram on the recently available New Zealand research papers on the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, and New Zealand’s role in the TPPA.”
      Oram gives a pragmatic analysis far more balanced and reasonable than the usual TPPApologists.

  8. joe90 8
    27 January 2016 at 9:58 am

    Now I know I shouldn’t laugh ~snort~ but this from the beige badgers site –

    Cameron Slater said on Facebook today that the police won’t be appealing the High Court ruling in the Hager case. He doesn’t sound like a happy chap.

    Then the Police ring me and tell me that they aren’t going to appeal the High Court ruling in the Hager case. So the lefty cunts who stole my data, and tried to steal an election all get away with their criminality.

    They say they are pursuing other avenues, but yet again Nicky Hager has laundered stolen goods, made plenty of money and tried to influence an election…with zero consequences.

    It is days like this that you really question whether or not karma exists…or why you even bother doing what you do. Still there is much to be thankful for.

    Despite everything I still think I am very blessed and lucky to live in this country…though I’m not sure how long can bothered living here anymore. I might just go back to my place of birth (Fiji) or live somewhere totally different…like Israel….because New Zealand really doesn’t feel like home sometimes.

    • Anne 8.1
      27 January 2016 at 11:58 am

      Talk about projection!

      • weka 8.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 12:21 pm

        That’s what I thought. Tried to influence an election, lol.

        Although I think we are all on the same page with Cam in wondering why he even bothers.

    • Rosie 8.2
      27 January 2016 at 11:59 am

      He’s always such a cry baby, wanting attention and sympathy because he didn’t get his way. Fine if he wants to move to another country, he doesn’t contribute anything to this one. He should do us all a favour and just get on with it, leave, and quit bleating.
      Israel would suit him. He can go join the IDF. He was there a while ago, as their guest, sociopathic sicko that he is.

      Well worth a little indulgent snort joe90

    • b waghorn 8.3
      27 January 2016 at 12:44 pm

      I’d donate a bit towards transporting the rancid whale to Israel!
      Should we start a givalittle

    • Lara 8.4
      27 January 2016 at 3:53 pm

      If he leaves NZ for good to go back and live in Fiji I bet we could have a whip round and pay for his plane ticket, on the agreement that it’s one way with no return. Ever.

    • Expat 8.5
      27 January 2016 at 5:14 pm

      Joe 90

      Cams comment
      I might just go back to my place of birth (Fiji) or live somewhere totally different…like Israel….because New Zealand really doesn’t feel like home sometimes.

      Good riddents to ya, the sooner the better!!

    • North 8.6
      27 January 2016 at 8:03 pm

      Bugger off to Israel then Slater, you mad bastard ! There you can bash over some Palestinian kids and get applauded for it !

      Doubt that NatziYahoo’ll have you in his phone list though. That’ll be tough won’t it slug ?

  9. greywarshark 9
    27 January 2016 at 10:39 am

    I came on this quote while browsing. The woman, Fran Peavey, makes a good point that is very relevant in these difficult times.
    (Make a comparison with Whaleoil musing as in Joe90 comment – Fran is trying to do good things for life to thrive on earth, Whaleoil isn’t even useful to spray on pest insects.)

    “Now, of course, the biggest criticism of heart politics is that it’s ‘so naive’. And it’s true, there is a lot of evil and despair in the world which makes it difficult to know if we will he able to make the changes necessary for life to thrive on earth.

    “We don’t know, but we have to do our bit because I know, one day, I’ll be lying on my bed and the Grim Reaper will come and I’ll want to be able to tell myself I did the best I could.

    http://www.jobsletter.org.nz/hpx/fran98.htm
    edited

  10. Puckish Rogue 10
    27 January 2016 at 11:25 am

    https://www.greens.org.nz/news/press-release/greens-cut-through-spin-independent-policy-costing-unit

    Now heres something I can fully support and get behind, if the left want to protest to force change then this would be a very good start

    Its only a couple of million a year so I think its a very good idea by the Greens

    • alwyn 10.1
      27 January 2016 at 12:12 pm

      At last something useful.
      It probably shouldn’t be in Treasury though. It would be better as an independent agency of Parliament. That would keep any disgruntled party from attacking Treasury if they don’t like the figures that are produced.

      The thing that would have to be settled is what they look at of course. It would be an overwhelming job if they had to cost every little bit of waffle from a back bench MP.
      Someone who says, say, that the schools in his/her electorate should be repainted more frequently because they are close to the sea and look scruffy earlier.

      On the other hand their press release only says it would “be available” to political parties. It should be required. It should also require that any proposed policy of a party, at least in election years, must be supplied to the unit with sufficient time for it to be costed before it is announced.

      Getting policies out of Winston’s lot might be a problem. They seldom contain enough detail to be evaluated.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 12:18 pm

        I think it would be a useful tool for the public to see what lunacy each party is suggesting

        Might make politicians pull their heads in a little

      • framu 10.1.2
        27 January 2016 at 12:25 pm

        also – as an independant body it would create a system where the actual policy (not the PR sound byte) has to be submitted to be costed – then it all becomes OIA-able (one would hope)

        so lack of detail/rushed/poorly thought out policy would become exposed as well as the costings, allowing us to see behind the media and PR rhetoric

        (yes im thinking of a certain bullet point policy platform 🙂 )

        • Puckish Rogue 10.1.2.1
          27 January 2016 at 12:27 pm

          See, the left and right can agree on things 🙂

        • weka 10.1.2.2
          27 January 2016 at 12:30 pm

          There would be some inbuilt confidentiality clauses. Not sure what that means (maybe that Treasury can’t discuss it with other parties until the party releases it?).

          • framu 10.1.2.2.1
            27 January 2016 at 12:45 pm

            if its public upon release, that in itself creates its own checks and balances.

            So i think that wouldnt be too big an issue

            a party that releases policy to late risks the media missing it and the public thinking theres something being hidden in the details

            The mere fact that both costings and policy details are in the hands of people outside the party, and can be released to the public together, would create a certain amount of pressure to be a bit more upfront (we can only dream of course 🙂 )

            • weka 10.1.2.2.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 12:49 pm

              One place for potential abuse (looking at you National Party office) is where the costings are done and not released (including in other than election years). It’d be useful to see more of the Green Party’s thinking on how the whole thing would work.

              • framu …
                27 January 2016 at 12:56 pm

                thats why i think a fully independant body would be better – just some sort of way that MPs cant get their hands on the released data before anyone else

                • alwyn …
                  27 January 2016 at 1:25 pm

                  I can’t see why MPs shouldn’t see the numbers first. Indeed it is better they do because they might come to their senses and scrap a crazy proposal. The numbers should be released immediately after a policy is publicly announced.
                  For the same reason I’m not that keen on the system being subject to the OIA act if it means that people can request costings done for a party where the policy was not then put to the public.
                  After all a party might consider a policy proposal. It gets costed and then they realise it really isn’t sensible and drop it. I don’t think it would be fair that the fact that they looked at something should be sufficient to have details released via an OIA request at a later date.
                  Something like a party considering reinstating the railway line from Napier to Gisborne. The cost might turn out to be, picking a number from the air, $500,000 per train. Very sensibly they scrap the idea. Someone then OIAs the calculation and attacks them for economic illiteracy.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    27 January 2016 at 1:46 pm

                    These are good points

                  • Brigid …
                    27 January 2016 at 4:32 pm

                    Well yes that is the way the MSM performs these days. They make attacks that are unjustified because the idea is as you put it IS “sensibly scrapped”

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    27 January 2016 at 5:08 pm

                    Someone then OIAs the calculation and attacks them for economic illiteracy.

                    But they do have a very legitimate and simple defence in saying that they didn’t go through with it/removed it from their platform. Of course, if they then went through with it they’d be rightly decried by all and sundry.

                    BTW, that’s a really bad way to determine if a railway line is worthwhile or not.

                • weka …
                  27 January 2016 at 3:11 pm

                  There might need to be back and forth communication between the unit and the party while the costings are done. After the costings are done the party might need time and other processes to happen before the info is released. Maybe a time delay until it is made public?

                  • framu …
                    27 January 2016 at 3:22 pm

                    yep – good points weka and alwyn

                    nothing wrong with being able to step back and change tack if a plan isnt working, and nothing with an outside pair of eyes being the one to show you your errors

                    im more talking from the point a party decides to go public with a given policy

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      27 January 2016 at 3:34 pm

                      and just like that a policy is improved that has both cross party appeal and will appeal to the voter in the street

                      a good days work I feel

                    • weka …
                      27 January 2016 at 4:59 pm

                      I thought your points pertinent too framu. We don’t know enough about the proposal yet.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.3
        27 January 2016 at 4:48 pm

        Getting policies out of Winston’s lot might be a problem. They seldom contain enough detail to be evaluated.

        I was thinking that it would be National that would have difficulty having their policies costed as they’re all simply make believe.

        • alwyn 10.1.3.1
          27 January 2016 at 5:15 pm

          I realise you are unlikely to be a great fan of the Tax-Payers Union but they put quite a lot of time and skilled effort into a costing exercise before the last election.
          They came up with a final result set as follows
          http://www.taxpayers.org.nz/final_results_published

          “The Bribe-O-Meter now reflects the costs of all policies announced. It shows that of the main parties:
          •the Greens have promised to spend the most, $6.54 billion, or $3,857.77 per household during the next Parliamentary term;
          •the Labour Party have committed to a policy programme worth $5.81 billion, or $3,423.16 per household; while
          •National have committed to $1.4 billion, or $823.62 per household of new spending.”

          They were unable to get any information out of New Zealand First.
          They had independent experts look at, and re-calculate the cost of the main policy planks of each party. You are entitled to your views on the National Party compared to other parties but I consider I am entitled to take the view that you don’t know what you are talking about and your statements are “all simply make believe”.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.3.1.1
            27 January 2016 at 5:22 pm

            The Bribe-O-Meter now reflects the costs of all policies announced. It shows that of the main parties:

            •National have committed to $1.4 billion, or $823.62 per household of new spending.

            And what was the cost of the policies that they implemented quick smart (i.e, had them ready to go) but hadn’t told us about?

            • alwyn 10.1.3.1.1.1
              27 January 2016 at 5:26 pm

              Pray tell.
              What were they? No doubt you can tell us the details.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                27 January 2016 at 5:44 pm

                Well, that would be the thing wouldn’t it? ALL policies would have to made available for costing before being put into place so that we can judge them on them.

                • alwyn …
                  27 January 2016 at 8:20 pm

                  In other words you can’t think of anything that National has done in the last 15 months that wasn’t announced prior to the election.
                  You claim that ” the policies that they implemented quick smart (i.e, had them ready to go”
                  Then you can’t think of ANYTHING they did that they implemented without having told us about it.
                  Pretty desperate aren’t you?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    27 January 2016 at 8:36 pm

                    Pretty desperate aren’t you?

                    Nope.
                    State housing sell off comes to mind. After promising not to sell state assets.
                    Changes to beer laws.

                    There’s probably more but I can’t recall them ATM.

                    All policies should be costed first before they’re even put to first reading.

                    • alwyn …
                      27 January 2016 at 9:00 pm

                      You really are desperate aren’t you?
                      National Social Housing Policy.
                      The very first policy highlight they listed was

                      “Reformed social housing sector to ensure it is fit-for-purpose including passing legislation to facilitate a shift from state housing to a range of new social housing providers.”

                      Look at it
                      https://www.national.org.nz/docs/default-source/PDF/2014/policy/social-housing.pdf

                      Now what word there don’t you understand?

                      As for changes to the beer laws. How much did you think that cost, and why did you really think it merited a policy statement?
                      Personally I think it would, given the duty on alcohol, probably have meant more rather than less money for the state.
                      Give up. You are just talking more and more drivel the longer you go on.

    • weka 10.2
      27 January 2016 at 12:29 pm

      And Key has already nay sayed the idea, quelle surprise. FFS he rejected it within hours of the proposal being made public. Joyce is open to the idea though, lol. As is common with Green Party ideas and policy, the business community response is positive.

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1601/S00113/nationals-obstruction-of-ind-costings-unit-not-surprising.htm

      Prime Minister John Key said it was “not a terribly good idea”. He said it would require a funding boost for the Treasury and would not achieve the Green Party’s goal of greater transparency because the results would be manipulated for political gain.

      “They would just ignore it if they didn’t like the numbers,” he said.

      What’s the political term for this, when you accuse other people of bad behaviour that is in fact a classic example of one’s own bad behaviour?

      • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1
        27 January 2016 at 12:36 pm

        This is one time I’d fully support a protest

        • weka 10.2.1.1
          27 January 2016 at 12:41 pm

          Feel free to phone your local MP or email Key and Joyce 🙂

          • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1.1.1
            27 January 2016 at 1:07 pm

            They still haven’t replied to my latest invoice so I might just let rest for a bit

          • alwyn 10.2.1.1.2
            27 January 2016 at 5:23 pm

            I took your advice and tried to contact my local MP. He did his best imitation of Sergeant Schultz in Hogan’s Heroes and came out with
            “I see nothing, I was not here. I did not even get up this morning”
            It sounded roughly like that anyway although with the Wellington Central MP one can never be sure.

      • alwyn 10.2.2
        27 January 2016 at 1:27 pm

        “What’s the political term for this, when you accuse other people of bad behaviour that is in fact a classic example of one’s own bad behaviour”
        The phrase Green Party Press Statement comes to mind.

      • alwyn 10.2.3
        27 January 2016 at 1:45 pm

        You link to a Green Party Press statement where we can see what Meteria says.
        However you put in quotes from John Key
        “Prime Minister John Key said it was “not a terribly good idea”. He said it would require a funding boost for the Treasury and would not achieve the Green Party’s goal of greater transparency because the results would be manipulated for political gain.”
        Where does this come from? I would like to see his full statement. before I join PR on the barricades.

      • vto 10.2.4
        27 January 2016 at 8:55 pm

        weka’s posted Key quote “Prime Minister John Key said it was “not a terribly good idea”. He said it would require a funding boost for the Treasury and would not achieve the Green Party’s goal of greater transparency because the results would be manipulated for political gain.”

        Isn’t John Key admitting there tht Treasury work is manipulated for political purposes?

        quelle surprise again….

        corruption within Key’s regime, admitted to by regime leader himself

  11. BLiP 11
    27 January 2016 at 11:56 am

    ‘

    Hmmm . . . interesting. Hamish Rutherford, Wellington business bureau chief for Fairfax has tweeted that New Zealand has dropped to fourth place on the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI). I can’t confirm this because the information is embargoed until later today (5am Berlin time) but its not something I would be entirely surprised by. New Zealand led the rankings until John Key and his National Ltd™ neoliberal thugs turned up. We dropped one place in, I think, 2011 and now it would appear we’re gaining downward momentum.

    • alwyn 11.1
      27 January 2016 at 1:37 pm

      That’s 5pm today isn’t it?
      Are you going to post then if it is out?
      Shame really. We were 1 in 95 and 96 and then dropped to 4 while Winston was Treasurer. Probably not coincidental.
      We then wandered around in the 2= to 3= range until 2005.
      Straight 1 or 1= from 2006 to 2013.
      Even 4th is hardly a disaster though is it? 4th of about 200 countries. Probably back to the early years of the decade in fact.

      • BLiP 11.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 6:39 pm

        ‘

        Confirmed – New Zealand has dropped to fourth place! .

        • Molly 11.1.1.1
          27 January 2016 at 7:14 pm

          Is this the corruption index that uses surveys of business people to come up with data?

          I’ve had a look at their site, but can’t find the definitive breakdown of their research.

          They do have:

          “Based on expert opinion, the Corruption Perceptions Index measures the perceived levels of public sector corruption worldwide.”

          It appears they use surveys of national TI chapters:

          “The NIS assessments offer a comprehensive evaluation of the integrity system in a given country. They are conducted by local in-country organisations, generally TI national chapters”

          Special offer is free membership for one year for the NZ TI Chapter.

          However, it does usually cost to be a member, and you have a very interesting membership (price on request) for above $1,000,000 business turnover.

          “Platinum, Gold, Silver, or Copper

          For more information and to apply for Platinum, Gold, Silver, or Copper membership, please contact us by email at [email protected]. “

          I would say that it would be simplicity itself to game this system.
          After all “perceived corruption” is not the same as actual corruption – it all depends on the perspective and knowledge of the perceiver.

          Let’s all sign up for that free membership and wait for next year’s survey…

          • BLiP 11.1.1.1.1
            28 January 2016 at 1:51 am

            ‘

            Dunno, sorry. Bryce Edwards has a good piece on the situation. He writes . . .

            . . . To arrive at New Zealand’s reduced score of 88 out of 100, Transparency International has aggregated seven separate annual assessments by independent agencies such as the World Bank and the World Justice Project. All seven assessments provide a score out of 100 on governance issues (which are 92, 93, 81, 83, 98, 88, 83). In comparison to New Zealand’s score of 88, three Nordic countries have registered higher scores (Denmark 91, Finland 90, and Sweden 89). This is why New Zealand is now behind them all, in fourth place . . . Of course the Transparency International index is one of perception. It is impossible to actually measure real corruption – by its very nature corruption is somewhat hidden and intangible – and therefore other metrics are necessary as proxies

            . . . which seems to indicate a certain robustness about the indexing but an unfortunate lack of clarity about exactly how the scores were calculated. Not too sure what to make of it all except that it serves to confirm corruption, or at least the perception of corruption, is a feature of the National Ltd™ government.

      • North 11.1.2
        27 January 2016 at 7:51 pm

        Oh Trollwyn stop it ! I note that to make it all seem just peachy you’re reduced to looking down. Not up where the Higher Standards are meant to be. Higher Standards was always just a cyncical bullshit mantra. Which even you now acknowledge. Eyes downcast.

  12. BLiP 12
    27 January 2016 at 12:21 pm

    ‘

    The US Senate has just voted 50-49 in what is a stunning denial of reality . . .

    The Senate rejected the scientific consensus that humans are causing climate change, days after NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration declared 2014 the hottest year ever recorded on Earth . . . The chairman of the environment committee, Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., is an enthusiastic denier of climate change, saying it is the “biggest hoax” perpetrated against mankind.

    “The hoax is there are some people so arrogant to think they are so powerful they can change the climate,” Inhofe said Wednesday on the Senate floor. “Man can’t change the climate” . . .

    . . . and this is the nation which holds the trump cards in any ISDS suits against the government resulting from legislation New Zealand might like to pass in order to meet its commitment to helping ameliorate climate change.

  13. Puckish Rogue 13
    27 January 2016 at 12:33 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11580306

    “Two-thousand-and-sixteen is going to be a most fascinating and explosive year in New Zealand politics,” he said. “We don’t believe that the government can hold up to the next election. The reason for that is the seeds of their own destruction are there now.”

    What the deuce is Winston on (about?)

  14. alwyn 14
    27 January 2016 at 2:01 pm

    In further news the Wellington City Council sets out to blow $8 million dollars on a scheme to have a flight from Wellington to Canberra 4 times a week.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/76161963/new-singapore-airlines-flights-to-cost-wellington-ratepayers-millions
    I guess that they have to find some way to try and fulfil the Mayor’s dreams of a connection to Asia.
    There is no further news on the Councils responsibility to provide an emergency source of water to Wellington Hospital in the event of an earthquake.
    Not as sexy as councillors jetting of to exotic climes on their “sister city” jaunts I guess.

  15. North 15
    27 January 2016 at 6:59 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11580542

    Advanced corruption ? What of the vaunted Higher Standards ? Snort !

    The fish rots from the head and The Gauche Man is significantly along the path to amoral.

    • alwyn 15.1
      27 January 2016 at 8:32 pm

      I must admit, old chap, I don’t feel quite so bad that we were 4th with a pretty good score of 88.
      I am glad I don’t live in the leftist paradises like Cuba, score 47, Greece at 46, or the favourite of the hard left idiots, Venezuela with the wonderful result of 17.
      Tell me dopey. Would you prefer to live here, number 4, or the hero of the left Venezuela at position 158 out of 167?
      Actually I wouldn’t be too surprised if our drop was due to the very dodgy dealings of Wellington’s left led council that I commented on just above your drivel.
      Do you approve of their activities?

      • vto 15.1.1
        27 January 2016 at 8:47 pm

        Funny thing is that corruption is merely another set of bureaucracy and rules that get factored into business. No problem. Once the bureaucracy and rules are known then all is good and everyone carries on. Just check business in Australia. Remember also Bjeikle-Petersen and Hinz who was Minister of Police and Minister of Racing at the same time in Queensland…. ha ha ha… what a larf

        Corruption ..;.. pffftt …. innocent naïve kiwis living in la-la land….

        though makes for good media and presentation as something else to beat certain countries over the head with eh….

        … we could start on Dick Cheney and co and business interests in war too

        ha ha
        corruption
        why was lord Ashcroft here having secret talk with our PM? ha ha.
        corruption

      • Gangnam Style 15.1.2
        27 January 2016 at 8:50 pm

        “Left led council” flogging that dead horse again? Always blame someone else isn’t it God forbid the leader of the country has anything to do with the leading of the country, oh no, its the lefties the lefties!

        • alwyn 15.1.2.1
          27 January 2016 at 9:10 pm

          Do you approve of what the Wellington Council is up to?
          Dishing out ratepayers money an dodgy schemes while refusing to provide for the continued operation of an essential service like the Wellington Hospital if we had an earthquake.
          Seriously, do you see that as a proper activity?
          And yes, the Mayor is definitely on the left and she is on the small group of councillors who are involved in these secretive activities.

      • North 15.1.3
        27 January 2016 at 8:53 pm

        Again Trollwyn…..looking down. You’re excellent as a troll…..until you get busted in it. As you always do.

        Piece of advice to VTO above – your comment just shits on Trollwyn, but given that he/she/it is concerned only to fellate The Gauche Man…… nothing you can say, however rational……

      • millsy 15.1.4
        27 January 2016 at 10:10 pm

        At least in Cuba you would have decent healthcare.

        • reason 15.1.4.1
          28 January 2016 at 12:12 am

          I recommend watching ‘The act of killing’ ….. you can watch the trailer here http://www.actofkilling.com/

          It’s about the corrupt, murderous right wing gangster country Indonesia…. where murderers and paramilitarys with the aid of the u.s.a and the west took over …. and still run the country.

          Or you can watch the genocide and take-over of east-Timor http://johnpilger.com/videos/death-of-a-nation-the-timor-conspiracy ….. which was a direct result and flow on from what happened in Indonesia ……

          And if you’d like to know a bit more about Venezuela I recommend ‘ The war on democracy’, http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy …

          Big trigger warnings on all three documentaries though ……….. There is Graphic violent content regarding murder, mutilation and rape…….

          Committed by the sort of people and Governments alwyn supports …………….

          • alwyn 15.1.4.1.1
            28 January 2016 at 10:20 am

            “alwyn supports”
            Really? And just how did you come to this conclusion?
            Psychic are you? Or are you just delusional?
            I suppose I could recommend that you watch the film “The Killing Fields” and remember the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge.
            They were your favourite Government weren’t they? They were the people you most admired and Pol Pot was histories greatest humanitarian to you I suppose.
            I have at least as much reason to attribute those beliefs to you as you have to accuse me as you have done.
            Don’t make up lies about things, like my views on past world Governments, when you are completely and utterly ignorant on the subject.

            • reason 15.1.4.1.1.1
              28 January 2016 at 11:20 am

              I recommend learning about the murderous Khmer Rouge ……..And how the u.s.a govt helped bring them to power….. and once there voting for them and recognizing them in the UN. http://johnpilger.com/videos/cambodia-year-ten

              http://johnpilger.com/videos/cambodia-return-to-year-zero

              http://johnpilger.com/videos/cambodia-the-betrayal

              It was of course the Vietnamese army who rescued Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge … The u.s.a govt killed well over 1 million Vietnamese but that’s another story

              In ” The war on Democracy”: ” the film shows how serial US intervention, overt and covert, has toppled a series of legitimate governments in the Latin American region since the 1950s.”
              http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy

              In interviews with Chavez and other footage we learn of the C.I.A involvement in military overthrow of his Govt…… which the people repelled.

              Venezuela has been under sustained economic attack from the u.s.a govt ever since which also labels it’s legitimate government criminal , terrorist etc etc…….. descriptions more fitting of Indonesia. http://www.actofkilling.com/

              To sum up I’m sure Alwyn supports the u.s.a govt ………….. which has helped create Pol Pot , Isis and supported more countries run by regimes with death squads ( wiki death squads ) than I have fingers on my hands ……………..

              • alwyn …
                28 January 2016 at 11:32 am

                ” I’m sure Alwyn supports the u.s.a govt”
                Well that is a change of your opinion I suppose.
                You still have no reason at all for the statement however.
                I guess I will just have to comment
                I am sure that Reason’s beliefs have little to do with the real world and some, including the one above, are based on things about which he knows nothing.

    • b waghorn 15.2
      27 January 2016 at 9:31 pm

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/295060/saudi-abattoir-deal-will-proceed-pm
      With this sort of stuff going on ,its surprising we’re still at 4 tha.

  16. greywarshark 16
    27 January 2016 at 9:16 pm

    Leaky buildings, leaky government, leaky plumbing.

    Poor workmanship also bugs Milton Sands, a director at big Auckland pipe merchant Aquatherm.
    But he also estimated half of all plumbing products being used here had not been certified to the New Zealand standard, though many would still be good products.
    What it showed up, though, was the lack of controls.

    “Until we have some certifying body in New Zealand checking products, the end user is always at risk. It’s got to be [central] government; local government hasn’t got the resources.”
    It’s manifestly unclear just how many of the thousands of taps, cisterns and pipes for sale are a failure waiting to happen.

    The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment has the power to warn about or ban building products – but it hasn’t ever done so.
    It said the “presence of this regulatory tool provides a threat that modifies behaviour and incentivises voluntary product withdrawal or change”.

    Sounds like some lines out of the neo lib textbook where the next page says that people will always prefer the cheaper price and the faster time for installation. (Which would lead to shonky jobs.) Is the textbook right?
    So the business might say, ‘What you going to do about it huh? Eh? Just what?’

  17. cogito 17
    27 January 2016 at 9:29 pm

    Good on them. This is exactly what we need in our Aotearoa NZ – people who will stand up to Key and this govt.

    “Trans-Pacific Partnership: Ngati Whatua won’t take part in powhiri”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11580689

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