Open Mike 28/04/2018
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6:00 am, April 28th, 2018 - 196 comments
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- Argumentum ad Populum: the worst kind of “proof” …with undeniable attraction.
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Gordon Campbell is calling for Phil Twyford to front up and explain how PPP risks will be managed.
He’s also calling for detailed cost comparisons.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1804/S00095/on-the-perils-of-using-ppps-to-meet-aucklands-roading-needs.htm
Are PPPs a dead rat Labour supporters will willingly swallow?
The Greens should vote against this….a vote winner for them…make it an issue…show what a disaster it has been in the UK.
I agree
The Green Party is really hitting its straps now. On the back of persuading the government to ban oil and gas exploration now is the time to show some real strength and vote aginst this.
They probably can’t vote against it. It probably doesn’t require any new legislation.
Yes, didn’t Labour open the door for PPPs when they were last in power?
They probably did @TC (aka Top Cat). Remind me when that was. Close to a decade ago was it?
On or off; 1 or 0; Jesus! it’s a tough ride when you have to consider anything other than two options.
Mind the bumps TC, your likely to get the shit shaken out of you
“The Green Party is really hitting its straps now. On the back of persuading the government to ban oil and gas exploration”
Without any cost benefit analysis, or indeed analysis if it will achieve the desired results.
Yep – sounds like the greens.
Im with you – I think that the greens should stand up and say PPP’s are bad. I disagree, but would love for them to campaign on it.
That’s because you’re ideologically blind to the results of PPPs.
They are bad, all the evidence proves that.
“The Greens should vote against this”
Don’t count on it.
James Shaw seems to be blinded by the environmental benefits. There is no mention of opposing the PPP’s being used to help secure them.
https://www.greens.org.nz/news/press-release/auckland-transport-plan-huge-win-commuters-buses-trains-and-bikes
Yes that’s right, the Greens should vote against any solution that does not have perfect form, rather than use an imperfect method to solve a problem.
Yes, lets watch them support an imperfect method to solve a problem that could potentially lead to more problems and see how well that works out for them.
If they were smart, they’d quickly distance themselves (by speaking out against that part of the plan) from the use of PPPs.
Your concern trolling, of the Greens, is getting rather tiresome.
So can we take it you support the Greens levying the masses to subsidise the well to do that can afford to buy a new electric vehicle?
Concern trolling seems to be the go to line when one doesn’t seem to have an argument worthy of putting forward. Here’s your chance to show me you can do better than that.
If the Greens start supporting PPP’s then that is a trap. Maybe part of the problem is I’m not sure how many of these new Green MP’s get outside of central Auckland or Wellington, therefore they think everything can be solved by walking and cycling.
I’m not even sure if they know what suburbs are even in the super city and how far reaching it now is.
The new plans in particular transport may take 5-10 years to start work, but in the mean time people have to survive that decade of hell and many can’t because they way power structures are now working, anyone who is not based in Central Wellington/Auckland or does not belong to some lobby group, seems to be strangely not thought about and even more strangely it’s now believed to be their fault for not having time to lobby/write reports/submissions/meet and greet politicians/go to rallies/pay lawyers/planners to write their submissions….
The Government Policy Statement released by the government was co-written by Associate Minister of Transport Genter. The Green Party don’t need much persuading.
Yes, well they did sign up to the Budget Responsibility Rules, which has resulted in the Government favouring PPPs as a means of keeping debt off their balance sheet.
Nevertheless, it’s disappointing the Greens don’t seem to be concerned about the use of PPPs.
Bravo! You managed to get all three of your pet words in one sentence that epitomises your contributions here on TS.
Campbell needs to swallow the cup of proverbial cement and harden up.
The Greens signed up to the budget responsibility rules.
The Greens signed up to the Transport GPS.
The Greens signed up to the Auckland package.
The Greens already manage a set of very close commercial partnerships and concessions through DoC as their Minister.
The Greens have been working assiduously with business on co-funding climate mitigation initiatives. Some of which you will see around Budget in May, and may quack walk fly and lay eggs like ppps do.
Just like the rest of government.
If the Greens associate themselves too closely with PPPs, they’ll find they will fail to bring many of their supporters with them.
Wonder where Shaw will end up once he’s finished destroying them?
Definitely he is already seen as business-friendly.
As the boldest Green Party MP in a long time, as well as one of the lowest profile leaders, he is going for something far harder than singing tenor to his own audience.
He is going for nothing less than uniting business and Government together to fund against climate change. He is using the climate change groups that he has set up, plus the $100m seed money, to pull in their partnership.
Now, that seems like something a centrist would do. But to be honest, it’s the only way to pull the rug out from National. Shaw knows now that he will never get cross-Parliamentary support for his legislation. But he can undercut National’s support from business and co-opt them to the cause.
The two biggest forces in the world right now are climate change and finance. Nothing like an audacious goal, and Shaw is going for it.
These are essential reading links on PPP’s (in UK called PFI’s)
“UK PFI debt now stands at over £300bn for projects with an original capital cost of £55bn”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/30/pfi-britain-hospital-trust-debt-burden-tax
https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-files/Society/documents/2004/11/24/PFI.pdf
Probably not.
They’re a bloody stupid idea based upon the failed ideology of the private sector always being better. History shows that PPPs are a waste of public money.
Why do politicians always refuse to believe reality when it comes to this BS?
The slightly less contentious arrangements are called Alliances, and there are going to be a blizzard of those rolling out.
Ad darling. I’ve heard a number of labels applied to my todger. Dick, penis, John Thomas, shafter, and a raft of others.
As far as I know, it’s basically the same member of my anatomy ‘going forward’.
and it has the same capability it always had darling (allowing for age of course).
Call ’em whatever you like
You are not useful to commenting on any arrangement the state has with capital.
here we go @CG and @ Grey
That little panel on the right is quite usefull.
As I made my previous comment, I said to someone that was watching…….Ad will pop up next with some words of wisdom.
Sure enough he has and you can all see for yourselves. Truly fucking inspiring!
But ekshully, as I was writing, I’d forgotten that I was at TS rather than TDB, and there are obviously different “Standards” at play.
I think not so long ago, I came close to a ban for contesting the absolute jewels that a poster such as AD possesses, AND for wondering (i.e. WONDERING) whether he, yes HE might not be a public servant, or some such other political sage that thinks he’s in tune with the peeps)
I still wonder whether TS uses Ad as a contributor in the same way Fox News uses an occasional token black as proof they’re ‘fair and balanced’
Doesn’t a PPP toll road make heavy road users pay the full cost of the externalities of thief behaviour? Or would rather just tax the shit out of all trucks?
No.
The one under construction for SH1 north of Auckland is a simple availability model. No toll. Yes private finance.
Commercial operators will merely pass the cost on.
An interesting comment in a linked article in yesterday’s Open Mike: re climate change.
“Without hope, goes the truism, we will give up. And yet optimism about the future is wishful thinking, says Hillman. He believes that accepting that our civilisation is doomed could make humanity rather like an individual who recognises he is terminally ill. Such people rarely go on a disastrous binge; instead, they do all they can to prolong their lives.”
I don’t think many people quite realise we, the human race, are entering, or maybe are in the middle of, the fight for our very existence, a struggle which will more than likely end in our defeat.
We still live in that rosy world – the perpetual present.
What we need is radical action, action that almost certainly doesn’t include any sort of accommodation with the present economic system, which got us into this mess in the first place. Yes, some people are going to have to make big sacrifices, but these people should be those who have the most to give up, not the ordinary people.
We’ve got to do all we can to prolong our lives! And ensure there is a future for our grandchildren!
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/26/were-doomed-mayer-hillman-on-the-climate-reality-no-one-else-will-dare-mention
“What we need is radical action, action that almost certainly doesn’t include any sort of accommodation with the present economic system, which got us into this mess in the first place. ”
This sentence sums it up.
Further to my post above, what might ‘radical action’ look like in practice?”
Well, first of all, I think we need to set this country on a war footing, very like we did during the Second Wold War. This would entail giving the government rather draconian powers to get things done. For instance, to name just a few:
• Nationalise all the banks. Money must work in the interests of NZ, not foreign owners.
• Stop industrial farming immediately. What good are exports if our environment is ruined.
• Immediately stop all sales of land and buildings to non-citizens. Seize houses which remain unoccupied for more than half the year.
“Nobody should be permitted to own two houses until everyone has one.”
• Stop all immigration immediately. We need to look after the people here already.
• Severely restrict imports to absolutely essentials. Cut the crap importing. Go back to the ‘number eight wire’ days during WWII.
• Government emphasis on essentials such as 100% sustainable energy and public transport for everybody. Turn Auckland Airport into a market garden.
As, no doubt many will point out, such actions, and other similar moves, will result in massive disruption – in the short term, counter this outcome by instituting a UBI, so that everyone has the ability to buy food. Pay for this by stripping the rich of their assets.
None of the above will happen, of course, or not at least until human extinction is slapping us in the face, when it will be far too late.
Excellent ideas.
Your comment / ideas are so stupid I dont know where to begin.
But fair to say that not a single person in government will ever take them up – for reasons that will be obvious to rational thinkers.
An idea may seem silly or stupid, until suddenly it isn’t.
My fear is that we shall be overtaken by events and will react far too late, like now we are reacting too little!
As you said.
George Monbiot is a ray of hope in a bleak world.
Massive amount of capital flight would occur and the economy would be ruined within a matter of months as the country’s income tanked, we would have little ability to purchase goods to maintain our health system or infrastructure. With the combined ban on industrial farming there would be widespread malnutrition and starvation.
In short many if not most of your suggestions would lead to very significant harm and hardship to the population apart from that it is a great debate starter.
Not to mention our best and brightest will simply leave the ed Viectchy dystopia ( doctors scientist; engineers. Entrepreneurs teachers etc), nz would just become a basket case
No need to give any government draconian powers over our every day lives.
The government can shoulder barge its way back into the economy if it wants (and should).
It already has an army it can re-purpose for the sake of desperately needed physical works around “known to be imminent” impacts of global warming.
Strict efficiency regulations on cars, appliances etc, that tighten year on year combined with an onerous carbon tariff at the border could work wonders.
The problem is that no-one in parliament is actually facing up to things. “Everyone” keeps on with this line that we can carry on as we are with a few fiddles here and a couple of adjustments there. We can’t. (Well, we can, but there’s an expiry date that’s coming into focus)
I don’t think it’s crazy to ask whether civilisation as we know it will survive into much of the next century. Given the path we’re on, I’d be saying that 2150 is looking like a very long shot.
But in the interim, if we want Auckland airport to be a market garden, then we can shut it down today and get started on it. No government required. Just arses on tarmac and some picks and shovels 🙂
I look forward to you, Ed and Tony trying to get onto the tarmac at Auckland airport with picks and shovels..it might even knock Korea off top spot on the news.
And therein (implied) lies a large part of the problem. Why is it we think our actions need be legitimised through the medium of the state and its institutions?
The day we drop that attitude/belief, is the day we can get started. And unlike as was the case in the USSR when people dumped their believes, there will likely be no external entity in a position to impose any new, restrictive political paradigm on us.
Yeah cool anarchy..right on man.
meh. You say anarchy, and I say democracy.
If we don’t engage – if we don’t build it and participate fully in our own lives, then we wind up where we are right now, or somewhere worse.
Actually, probably always somewhere worse seeing as how representative parliamentary forms of governance normalise thoughtless abeyance.
Why do I have the feeling that the particular form of democracy that the likes of yourself, Dtb, Ed and others would be served with a side order of jackboot for those who disagreed with your particular world view ?
With all the faults of our current system of the state and its institutions I’ll take it every time over those that chant ‘vive la revolution’.
The only reason I can think as to why you have that feeling, is that you’re failing to grasp some very basic characteristics and features of democracy.
Unlike with representative parliamentary governance or more authoritarian forms of governance, with democracy there simply can’t be any particular world view being forced on people.
Take a moment to think it through for yourself.
In that case I look forward to the vote on the digging up of the tarmac at Auckland airport pending the planting of a market garden along with the vote on
• Nationalise all the banks.
• Stop industrial farming immediately.
• Immediately stop all sales of land and buildings to non-citizens.
• Stop all immigration immediately.
• Severely restrict imports to absolutely essentials.
• Government emphasis on essentials such as 100% sustainable energy and public transport for everybody.
Although I must admit to suspecting I know the results …
You didn’t even try to think it through, did you?
If you had, you’d realise there’s no place for “the market” because it embodies and promotes deeply anti-democratic dynamics. Trade in a democratic setting does not unfold through market mechanisms.
Auckland airport? Any decision would surely be around allowing for the continuation of air travel? And those decisions (and it would be plural) aren’t based on some simple yes/no binary.
As for what might be done with the place should space be freed up due to the demise of air travel, well, I live a long way away and the establishment of market garden or whatever else (and unlike air travel) is very unlikely to have any impact on me. So I wouldn’t be party to that decision or process.
“But in the interim, if we want Auckland airport to be a market garden, then we can shut it down today and get started on it. No government required. Just arses on tarmac and some picks and shovels 🙂”
Is that meant to be highlighting a contradiction?
Direct action in the present isn’t incongruent with democracy. It by-passes undemocratic processes and systems associated with representative forms of governance. (Y’know, the whole “Why is it we think our actions need be legitimised through the medium of the state and its institutions” bit?)
I can’t see the point continuing with this conversation Bill.
The problem is that no-one in parliament is actually facing up to things.
That is hardly true. The problem is with the voters. The voters are not voting for this level of intervention, otherwise we would have the Greens leading the government.
If the government enacts policies that do not have the general consent of the masses (or at least the majority of those who vote) then that fucking well is giving the “government draconian powers over our every day lives”. The economy is part of our everyday lives.
James Shaw views AGW as a great business opportunity. That’s where the “no-one in parliament” comment comes from – on the assumption that the Green Party represents the edge of the parliamentary envelope on AGW.
This chrematistic economy is part of our every day lives, true. And the government seeks the approval of those already controlling and gaining from that economy – not us, the voting public. Government directed economic development would be bringing economic agency a step closer to us than it is at present. (That said, a quick look to the ME and N. Africa offers instructive examples of what can happen when countries go down that path)
James knows that under our current power structure, combatting AGW requires the consent of the wealthy.
As we are not a democracy, but a rotating dictatorship voters hardly come into it.
Yeah, okay. Let’s go with that. So Shaw is stepping up to the plate re AGW, how?
It’s like saying the Fabians are right enough because they ‘understand’ that redistribution requires the “consent” of the wealthy.
It does, obviously. Or Helen Clark would have done it.
Remember the “winter of discontent”.
When big business got all petulant, and “held the country to random”.
You’ve kind of lost me here KJT.
The “winter of discontent” was an episode of naked class warfare that the working class lost, and that ushered in a resurgent liberal political/economic agenda.
If we want action on AGW, but also want to mollify the wealthy, then there will be no adequate action taken around AGW.
Under our current rotating dictatorship any change can onle be made with “the consent of the wealthy”. Which is, of course, the point.
It depends entirely on whether we have any Wilberforce’s or Roosevelt’s amongst them.
I think KJT is referring to The NZ “Winter of Discontent” in 2002, whereas I think you are referencing the UK’s 1978-79 Thacherism Winter.
Rod Oram sums up NZ’s WoD here:
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/11/04/58244/rod-oram-another-winter-of-discontent#
Both however do exibit the underlying problem of class warfare, which is a war that the poor are always going to loose within our current system of corporatocracy* – even though they may win some battles on the way.
* I wouldn’t say it’s a dictatorship – we do get to choose whether our government will have a more human face or not.
Didn’t stop them in the 80’s and 90’s.
“Without hope, goes the truism, we will give up.”
What horseshit.
Why?
Plenty of people do not give up, and have no hope.
Nor does that mean they are having a miserable time of it either.
Hope is largely an advertising and marketing construct.
There is however a danger that having no hope will lead to giving up.
It ends up with the philosophy best described by the saying.
“Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die”
Climate breakdown and the erasure of non-human life from the land by farming and the sea by industrial fishing are crises we cannot afford to give up on.
In the current circumstances the most useful thing is to plan and mitigate. Even if that includes our decline.
The foolish and the immature simply reach for the extremes of apocalypse or heaven, because it’s the religious approach to engaging with power.
The problem with even using the trope of crisis is that it’s been played so often by all kinds of leader and all kinds of political persuasion for the last century that it’s lost most of its ability to shock anyone into action.
Pay real close attention to Shaw’s approach to climate change.
He doesn’t have to use any of the feeble old fear routines, and doesn’t need to.
Agreed.
Conforming to reality really isn’t a radical action. It’s our present socio-economic system that’s radical.
How worse will the Government allow this to get?
Jacinda, this needs fixing now!
That’s the result of nine years of mismanagement by National which is, unfortunately, going to take more than a few months to fix.
While it was compounded by nine years of mismanagement by National, I think we both know it is the result of neo-liberal changes both National and Labour have implemented over the last few decades.
While Labour are saying some of the right things, they are far from offering what is required and what little they do plan to do is coming in at snail pace.
Seems Labour are trying to stockpile policy deemed to be popular by holding back implementation till after the next election to help counter the unpopular ones and get them over the line.
Don’t you love the leisurely pace of the old cheese ad ‘good things take time’? We lose much in our compulsively accelerating world.
Match highlights? I hate them, – little burst of canned action. All the tension, excitement and build up of atmosphere of each unique encounter are lost.
Surfing clips are shockers, rarely longer than three seconds of a surfer already on the wave. Surfers watch, ponder and judge the oncoming swell before committing to the vigorous paddle. A 6 second sequence would at least capture some of this vital aspect of the sport.
“Hurry while stocks last” has the opposite effect reminding me that good shopping also ‘takes time.’ I like to compare products, research their features and come to a choice with inner conviction.
“It’s easy!” is another overworked assurance in the barrage of commercials rammed at us daily. I suppose in an increasingly complex world ‘easy’ is altogether a relief for some but we run the risk of equating ease of execution with quality of product.
When a movie promises non stop action I’ll certainly avoid it. Endless car chases, cops bursting in on scenes with guns in the ready become ‘non-action’ when grinded out time after time. We run the risk of becoming a species bent on ceaseless stimulation via the hyper-priming of our excitable cognitive natures.
Many are aware of this and turn to holistic pursuits that appeal to our deeper selves and sense of integration. “Inwardness” which probes untapped regions of consciousness reveals areas of quality and quietness as counters to our strident world. Sure meditation, New Agey stuff, incense, mindfulness etc initially overran themselves attracting many in search of cloud nine rather disciplined re-orientation.
But those who persist and take time discover less not more is the way to go and that
there is an element within self that responds favourably, contributing thereby to the lessening of our footprint both carbon and otherwise.
Hi, Ant..
That is a very enjoyable commemt…nice to read…
Sounds like you’re on a reflective journey in this life…
Go well…
There’s a reason why I don’t watch TV. I get to avoid all the push from advertisers and the MSM about going fast and how they think I should be and thus have time to make up my own mind.
I don’t watch TV I just get the highlights on YouTube 😂
According to John Campbell it has been dubbed the war on the poor (about 4.40 into last nights episode of Checkpoint) and unfortunately for the Greens it is being led by James Shaw.
So the party that was renowned for fighting for the poor is now perceived to be leading the attack on them. Talk about tarnishing your branding, what’s that James Shaw up too? Is it incompetence or intentional?
You are such a penis. Of course it was National who have dubbed it a war on the poor. Hard to know of course when they are being completely divorced from reality or simply bullshitting:
“You would see the poorest of New Zealanders who are purchasing second hand Japanese imports..” (Jami-Lee Ross, National’s Transport spokesperson)
Of course the “poorest New Zealanders” are far more concerned about purchasing their next meal and could only dream about having the many thousands of dollars required to buy a directly imported car.
The imported over a decade ago second hand petrol cars that the next to poorest New Zealanders buy will soon be worthless.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018642543/nats-petrol-car-levy-will-hurt-the-poor
It may have been National that dubbed it but they are right on this occasion. It doesn’t do the poor any favours. Hence, one has to ask what is that James Shaw up too?
Who would have thought National would have to defend the poor from James Shaw? Within seven months the Greens have gone from the party fighting for the poor to leading the attack on them. Seems Shaw is that right within some feared he would be. This will renew calls for him to go.
Of course the “poorest New Zealanders” are far more concerned about purchasing their next meal and could only dream about having the many thousands of dollars required to buy a directly imported car.
Where have you been? Some of the poorest New Zealanders live in their cars.
“Where have you been? Some of the poorest New Zealanders live in their cars.”
Boom!
I was going to drop the mike, lol.
You’ve really revealed yourself as the troll you are with this one.
Yeah, that’s your form, roll out the old troll line. That will appeal to the ignorant.
It’s James Shaw that is revealing himself.
Your defense of his stance is rather revealing as well. You come across as either a cheerleader or blue/green.
Lol, you called me a blue-green. That’s nearly as funny as when Ed claimed i was a neo-liberal.
solkta, our esteemed but self-titled Chairman is a concern troll who has for ages been masquerading as a true leftie, but who constantly looks for issues which he thinks will make either Labour or the Greens less popular with the general public if he can con other lefties into supporting leftie policies on those issues.. (He does this for Labour as well as the Greens.) He has blown his own cover so often that I have generally given up responding to him. Like rust, he persists, but unlike rust, he achieves little. McFlock is, I think, another who has no confidence in our Chairman. See his response at 5.1.1.2.1.1
Two hundred dollar wrecks. Not new imports.
“Two hundred dollar wrecks.”
Not all of them.
They’re not. They’re trying to make it so that they can get into power and attack the poor again.
And you’re helping them.
Correction, Draco.
It’s Shaw that has made them vulnerable to attack, presenting National with the opportunity. I’m just highlighting how bad it has become that National can now attack the Greens for burdening the poor.
This is all due to the stance the Greens have taken, and I personally had no role in that.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Butter wouldn’t melt in your pustulent mouth.
derision and insults …as unsurprising as it is tedious
Of course. You don’t think that TC deserves a serious response, do you? That it’s somehow Shaw’s fault that the nats are making up complete bullshit about this government and Greens (National using the expression “war on the poor”, no less, the fucking hypocrites), and that TC is merely reporting their totally genuine concern at this perilous state of affairs? The concept is hilarious!
It’s not hilarious, it’s outrageous.
Following up on the Greens gifting questions away, Shaw has put the Greens in a position where National can now attack the Greens for burdening the poor. And a number of Green supporters I’ve talked to are outraged.
And it’s not bullshit. The Greens publicly announcing they are considering such a move has left them vulnerable to this form of attack.
The Greens existing provides ammunition for the nats to make shit up about them. Same with Labour existing.
National can attack the government for anything. Just as you trawl through the list of labgrn interviews to find something you can invent a concern about, a petrol levy won’t hurt the poor, at absolute worst it’ll shift them onto public transport. But then the nats don’t care about the poor (or truth) any more than you care about the issues you and the imaginary greens you talk to are genuinely concerned about your despondency of the day.
Maybe you’re not really a tory liar. Maybe your concern filter is just broken, and you’re so self important you believe you’re genuinely raising highly important issues that (despite their importance) nobody else has noticed. Either way, you’re a joke.
While the Greens and Labour’s existence provides National with opposition thus makes them a target, their mere existence doesn’t provide ammunition for them. It’s their actions, policy and proposals that can do.
Moreover, it’s not made up shit. The Greens did publicly announce they are considering such a move. And this has made the Greens far more vulnerable to this form of attack.
How National decide to attack the Government is their prerogative. And sure, their concern for the poor may well be disingenuous, but thanks to the Greens considering this proposal (of benefiting the well to do at the expense of the less well off) it has given the Nat’s attack strength.
In many cases, there isn’t sufficient public transport for people to turn too.
The concerns and feedback I present are real, not invented. And as you know, although anecdotal, the feedback has been inline with a number of polls.
How national and you attack the government is indeed your prerogative. You get to choose your concerns of the day.
If the government does something good for the environment or fiscally responsible, your guys suddenly have concern for the poor.
If the government does something good for the poor, you get to worry about efficacy or whether it’s fiscally responsible.
If the government does something that’s good for the environment, the poor, and it’s fiscally responsible, you get concerned about whether taxes are too high, or maybe businesses are feeling a little bit unconfident (the poor dears).
But your concerns are indeed made up, transient conveniences merely invented to attack the government in lieu of any genuine problems to date.
I voted Green due to their dual commitment of social justice and improving the environment.
Hence, when they make a move like this that would not only overlook their commitment of social justice but goes against it, of course I’m going to be critical. I want them to hold true to their commitment.
Whereas, the Nat’s are unlikely to want to genuinely see the Greens uphold their commitment of social justice and are more likely to see a divide being created, thus are utilizing that opportunity to pry the party apart.
We all know that Nats would prefer to see the Greens drop their social justice stance, whereas I’m critical because I want them to uphold it.
And that is the difference between my criticism and the Nats.
Gotcha. You repeat and amplify National party talking points because you really mean it, whereas they develop those talking points because they’re just hypocritical liars.
That’s not what I said. Hence, you got nothing.
Care to try again?
You honestly “want them to hold true to their commitment.”
The nats “are utilizing that opportunity to pry the party apart.”
And you started this thread with the nat line that the government has launched a “war on the poor”.
So how does that not meet the description “You repeat and amplify National party talking points because you really mean it, whereas they develop those talking points because they’re just hypocritical liars.”?
I started this thread highlighting John Campbell reporting it as being dubbed the war on the poor.
And while the criticism may be similar (which isn’t surprising as National and I are both discussing the flaws of the same issue) the difference is the end goal. I want the Greens to uphold their commitment to social justice, the Nat’s have a different agenda. As explained above.
Something for readers to ponder:
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/04/30/106833/help-the-old-bomb-owners-this-time
Who dubbed it so?
That’s what I said. You repeat tory lines, but you really mean it, while they’re just hypocritical liars.
Correction, McFlock.
John Campbell repeated the tory line, I highlighted it.
And as I said to solkta, it may have been National that dubbed it but they are right on this occasion. It doesn’t do the poor any favours. If you haven’t already, see the link: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/04/30/106833/help-the-old-bomb-owners-this-time
So while National may be hypocritical, they’re not lying in this instance (dubbing it the war on the poor). But we clearly have different end goals, as explained above.
So it was originally a tory line, and you “highlighted” it. But you are genuinely concerned, whereas they are not. Gotcha.
You still haven’t told us how many of the poorest New Zealanders you think purchase newly imported second hand Japanese cars.
You’ve really revealed yourself as the troll you are with this one.
Placing a levy on all fossil fuel vehicles will have a flow on effect as vehicles are traded on. So those struggling to afford to buy a car now will find it even harder going forward if this proposal is implemented.
Moreover, it’s not just the poorest New Zealanders that will be impacted, this will negatively impact many lower income households looking to buy a vehicle.
National didn’t seem too worried about the poor when they decided that their ACC rego levy reductions would be weighted heavily to newer cars.
You’re right, they didn’t. But I don’t think too many of their supporters were concerned about that.
Whereas, what’s happening here is the Greens have made themselves vulnerable to attack (as a lot of their supporters will be disappointed such as myself) thus National are seizing the opportunity presented.
Well I guess it’s true National absolutely love the poor – they must as they spent 9 years creating more of them.
Yes, and this coalition seems to be carrying on (albeit a bit softer around the edges) where National left off. Soaring food parcel demand, TPP, PPPs, regressive taxes etc…
Its early days the winter heating allowance is a pretty good help for a lot …and I’m certain the government knows a large portion of recipients will use it to simply reduce their suffering. The government avoided an enormous amount of political capital attrition in choosing this method…
Think about it!
The winter heating allowance is vastly insufficient. More so when one considers this link below:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/102708888/way-to-be-cleared-for-big-electricity-players-to-prey-on-lowincome-households
So ponder that.
Wow what a firebrand and it gets me right where I live. I think another special post needed to discuss this interview on RadioNZ.
It otherwise could overwhelm Open Mike.
8:10 Camille Paglia – Free Women, Free Men
Camille Paglia
Feminist author and academic Camille Paglia joins Kim to talk about her latest book – a collection of her essays on modern feminism called Free Women, Free Men: Sex, Gender, Feminism.
Paglia is the University Professor of Humanities and Media Studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia. She is the author of Glittering Images; Break, Blow, Burn; The Birds; Vamps & Tramps; Sex, Art, and American Culture and Sexual Personae.
“I,I,I,I,I,I,I,I. Me,me,me,me,me,me,me. First, first, first, first.”
I was running back and forth in my usual morning busy-ness and not giving the interview 100% but did she say very much more than I quoted above?
Audio for Camille Paglia – Free Women
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018642586/camille-paglia-free-women-free-men
Dear Rosemary
Before she can state her opinions she has to give her background, her study, her professional expertise, her research – what she bases her opinions on. This is necessary because they are very different than what is currently being spouted in society and she meets a barrage of negative responses by affronted people who can’t lever their minds open even fractionally.
And, when you are being thoughtful and honest and thinking deeply about this blog, aren’t most of the comments all about one individual’s opinion, which usually is aired as the only reasonable approach and without any attempt at explaining the background and experience and expertise of the person giving that opinion. This is what pisses me off with people at present, too much of TS reads like the understanding of children or cult members spouting what they have been taught to think. So it’s all I, me, first from people here. And mostly just repeated from month to month without any new views being considered.
“… too much of TS reads like the understanding of children or cult members spouting what they have been taught to think.”
I am becoming increasingly frustrated with this too. Ostensibly spontaneous outbursts of flag waving and positivity at the merest hint that the current government are doing just great….
Case in point was the post yesterday about the launch (with much fanfare) of the pilot of the Enabling Good Lives/DSS System Transformation in Palmerston North.
You bet your boots I have strong opinions about disability support issues, but I would not for a second expect anyone to respect or accept merely my word or my experience or my opinion.
When able I’ll provide links to documents that hopefully folk will read if they want the true history behind the headlines.
But, alas, superficiality rules.
Back to Camille….I did find myself agreeing with some of what she was saying…but I also find myself repelled somewhat by rampant egocentrics.
Busy day today….but I will try to listen to the podcast….
A number of sharp insights mixed with complete lunacy such as AGW denial.
All underpinned by massive egotism. Closer inspection by someone brighter than me might bring out the internal inconsistencies in what she is saying – Kim pushed a little way down this line of questioning.
Always a good listen Prof Paglia.
She’s a smart lady with some original ideas – but not all of them are wise. They do tend to be better informed than most academic superstitions though. It really takes a bunch of folk like her with differing views to shake down the failed assumptions of contemporary society and social policy into a new synthesis.
What a difference a day makes… maybe DPRK isn’t an insane tyranny… the path New Zealand could have taken a socialist green paradise like DPRK.
😆 a socialist green paradise 😆
Yes, because our 1080 riddled, cow shit and nitrate soaked landscape is a much better example of “clean and green” – well said.
And our poor are homeless.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/355962/our-homeless-community-is-going-to-be-bigger-than-ever
And our poor lack food.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/356160/the-auckland-city-mission-has-almost-run-out-of-canned-food
And our poor die young.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/356024/children-in-poorest-areas-three-times-more-likely-to-die
And, despite these ghastly statistics, some New Zealanders don’t care about our poor. Because they themselves are alright.
+1 Ed. NZ can’t exactly point fingers given the shabby truth behind the shiny PR.
According to the interview North Korea has ample free housing. While New Zealand has the worst homeless rate in the developed world (OECD).
Sorry Maui I honestly thought you were taking the Michael with your comment and YouTube post.
Amazing that isnt it – you are happy to see that North Korea has tons of free housing – yet its population is starving to death.
Any idea why they are starving? That would be amazing if you find out and share it with us.
Bit like the wrong side of Chicago, then!
Always a little skeptical of tapes with a looped video in the background. An “independent journalist” wanting a reputation for honesty would look for both sides – there are plenty of North Korean emigres/refugees in South Korea (and China) who could have filled in the gaps in her story.
Sure Kim Jong Un is a lovely fellow – poisoning one’s brother in Macao with VX gas is perfectly consistent with good governance – under his kind of monarchy.
Saw this on Robin Westenra’s excellent blog.
Trouble brewing between Russia and the Ukraine
http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2018/04/ukraine-threatens-russia.html
What the hell happened here? This needs exposure so the manager involved can’t continue
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12040773
A government employee died in a suspected suicide just ten days after complaining to management he was the victim of sustained, unresolved workplace bullying.
However, the Housing New Zealand staff member’s death was not notified to health and safety authorities for six months – despite new regulations requiring agencies to report any death “arising out of the conduct of a business” to WorkSafe immediately.
Concerned colleagues, who claim the man was so stressed he was pulling out his hair, say they fear the death will be “swept under the carpet”.
“I was there when he died, and that’s when I decided to leave too. I didn’t want to become a statistic,” a former co-worker said. “They knew he was unwell. And they should have referred it to WorkSafe to be investigated.”
Is that a link to the herild?
Did not click.
Deeply disturbing.
“Five people gave accounts of the months before the man’s death, saying his decline from a bubbly, confident team member began when a new manager was appointed in late 2016.”
Definitely needs to be investigated as that’s indicative of the manager purposefully making life hell for the guy.
A brave person indeed to link to an article in the Herald when the Peoples’ Front of The Standard have declared a ban on anything from that particular publication.
However this is an article by the very able and capable Kirsty Johnston…a journalist whose fine work will be overlooked by those seemingly unable to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I guarantee Kirsty will continue to write articles that will force light into darkened places.
Why is New Zealand’s media ignoring what the UN has described as the “the world’s largest food security emergency” on earth?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/saudi-arabia-no-amount-of-flattering-pr-can-hide-human-rights-crackdown-under-reformer-crown-prince/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/23/world/middleeast/yemen-cholera-humanitarian-crisis.html
https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2018/04/26/faith-based-groups-say-fighting-created-humanitarian-crisis-in-yemen/
Maybe because it would mean challenging our best mate, Saudi Arabia.
Some countries get missiles fired at them.
Others not.
https://www.rt.com/news/424847-saudis-blamed-yemen-strike/
It is disgusting and meanwhile everyone is wanking on about Syria. The WWE (great friends of Trump) recently held a huge event in Saudi, called “the greatest royal rumble”, as if it is a civilised nation. No women were allowed to participate.
One step forward with the proposal for Grey Lynn cohousing, and one step back in Hastings with neighbours concerns with social cohesion and property values.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natioanal/356160/the-auckland-city-mission-has-almost-run-out-of-canned-food
“This time last year we were averaging between 750 and 800 food parcels given out each month. This year we’ve given out over 1000 for January, February and March and this last month we gave out 1150.”
Canned food such as spaghetti, tuna, tomatoes, and vegetables will go a long way to feeding those in need, Ms Sawyers said.
Food can be dropped off at the mission on Hobson street, or at the New World supermarkets at Victoria Park and Devonport.
About time the government declared an emergency.
This country has clearly been allowed to go to rack and ruin by Key’s Vichy regime.
Time to take on the banks, finance institutions and global corporations.
Yes, martial law and the Dictatorship of the Greenetariat is now the only solution.
I would highly recommend you read Tony Veitch (not etc)’s policies to solve the world’s most pressing issues.
The bit you should see is this.
Tony Veitch (not etc) then lists these policies ( all highly sensible given the crises we are facing ) and ends with this…..
Ummm, AsleepWhileWalking linked to a radionz article about the demand on foodbanks. That particular problem is really easy to fix.
Yes it is.
But not in a neoliberal straight-jacket.
There are more alternatives than Neo-liberalism and the Dictatorship of the Greenetariat.
‘Greenetariat.’
We are discussing the following ecological crises.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/20/insectageddon-farming-catastrophe-climate-breakdown-insect-populations
And you resort to name calling……
No, i’m describing the type of authoritarian state that you want to create.
Would you have called New Zealand or Britain an authoritarian state during World War 2?
I am proposing, like ‘Tony Veitch (not etc)’ that we put the country ( and the world) on a war footing to mitigate the effects of the climate catastrophe coming our way.
Your concerns about your freedom to consume crap comes a poor second to preserving ecosystems on this planet.
When there actually is a war then people are more likely to give general consent to a more authoritarian state, and this is what happened to a large extent during WW2. You keep saying “the government should [insert authoritarian act]” where there is no mandate from the public for this to happen.
If the current government were to implement just one of your ideas they would then have no chance of re-election. What you must be saying then is that the government should suspend democracy and become a dictatorship (how you think they would get the army to cooperate i don’t know).
Yes, and all the rich pricks should give up all their money to this government and give it away to the poorer people.
That will make everyone poorer then and nothing to grizzle about.
They were made to in China. Now everyone there is richer, according to the right wing comments on here.
NZ is a wealthy country.
Each year the wealthiest 10% of NZers could ‘gift’ 1% of their true wealth for (re)distribution to the least wealthy 40% of NZers.
Given the current magnitude of wealth inequality in NZ, where the top 10% control at least 60% of the total wealth, this redistribution would hugely improve the standard of living of the poorest 40% in just a few years, while having a minimal impact on the top 10% whose wealth would continue to grow, albeit more slowly than before.
The twin strangleholds of neo-liberalism and wealth addiction, however, make meaningful, progressive redistribution all but impossible.
Of course especially Britatin was totalitarian during WW2 (dunno about NZ, but they’d dug air raid trenches in Dunedin’s Octagon, so there was a bit of a worry on here, too).
They locked a woman up for witchcraft, had checkpoints, everyone had to carry their papers, and almost all food was strictly rationed.
But it was a temporary state of affairs, not a permanent one.
It’s only a crisis when the majority thinks and votes that way. That’s a basic problem with all human systems: there are always disenfranchised people, and always externalised (environmental) costs resulting from human activity. I don’t think martial law is gonna solve the inherent flaws of the human condition, that is an ideal offered only by religious faith.
(I’m not saying we should do nothing though)
Is it?
The problem is caused by the structure of our society and the fact that a few people have control over almost all of it and those people aren’t the government.
So, how would fix it given this structural problem?
Raise the minimum wage and benefit levels plus all the work being done on housing. No need for an authoritarian state to do those things.
But Ed likes to conflate every issue and come back to the same solution for everything. And that solution involves ditching our democratic and human rights.
Raise the minimum wage and benefit levels plus all the work being done on housing.
And the rich simply put the prices up and grab all that extra money for themselves.
So, not a fix. Just a papering over the problem of private ownership of the nations wealth.
So why then did we not have such a need for foodbanks in the 1950/60/70s?
60% top income tax rate and child support.
We weren’t competing in a global economy
Wasn’t that supposed to make us more prosperous?
Because we had governments running a full employment policy?
Because we had compulsory unionism and people actually engaged in the political process?
Because the majority of women spent the majority of their time at home instead of going to work decreasing the workforce? (No, I don’t want to remove women from the workforce).
Because the state actually owned a hell of a lot more instead of selling it off to the rich and foreigners?
Because we didn’t have foreign ownership?
Because of 60% or higher taxes on the well off?
Because we didn’t have GST.
There are many reasons why we were better off then than we are now and there’s been a lot of changes.
The question is which ones do we need to change back and which new ones we need to dump and which ones just need changes? Hell, a sovereign monetary system may be all that’s needed (It’s not – we really do need to get rid of foreign ownership and permanent residents).
Change has to be structural and radical .
Change the economic model – from one that prioritises people, not business and the rich.
Adopt policies that are socialist and ecological.
Stop the growth model.
Build local trade networks. Stop import of all unnecessary goods. Learn to live on our land base.
Change the business model ( ban corporations and set up cooperatives And other democratic workplace arrangements )
Change the tax structure so the rich cannot evade or avoid tax. Introduce a distributive tax system.
Warning: Auckland people, more outages are happening with this storm. Stay warm, and safe, stay off the roads if you can.
4 days without the Herald.
Feeling happier,calmer and more peaceful without its pollution in my life.
Excellent Ed – I am sure you will soon be entering a Higher Plane of consciousness.
I do advise against visiting cafes in the Auckland region where copies of the Herald can be see lying around, looking increasingly dishevelled by mid-afternoon, like a degenerate toff in a smoking jacket who started too early on the port.
I make a point of lifting the offending object from in front of me between thumb and forefinger and dropping it on a vacant table with a loud comment to the family – “just removing this toxic right-wing rag” – and then wiping my hands on a serviette. Great fun.
Sort of sad people get so carried away or fixated on politics they close thier mind to anything perecived to be outside thier world view Even worse when you hear of people ending friendships or relationships simply because a significant other may have a different political view From observation seems to be more of a left wing thing where intersectional politics takes precedent over the right and respect of an individual to hold a different view Becomes even more toxic if you are part of a left appointed victim class, minority,arts or cultural class and you even contemplate sharing a differing non left view ie Kanye West, Shania Twayne been two most recent examples
If you think it is a left wing thing ,you have never been to a Chamber of Commerce or Federated Farmers, meeting.
Agreed it is mostly toxic waste comprising daily regurgitations from Hosking, Hooton, HDPA, Soper, et al.(and the usual endless spruiking of Auckland property) But there are still a few real journalists there so I’ll read it for that.
Yep understand Hoskins Hooton hate club but what about when some one other than a journalist does not tow the leftist line, more so thinking of the viterol that Kanya west and shania Twain got when they did not follow the leftist playbook, ie s black man and an artist broke ranks with identity politics, that’s what I found interesting, Hooton, Hoskin, yep I get it, but what about others,?
The Herald: a general rule of thumb is that it’s pro Establishment propaganda
I don’t go for that, no nooo, no can do
viterol WTF is that?
Sorry barfly most people have the cognitive ability to pick up a word irrespective of 100pc correct spelling, but especially for you “vitriol” by the way what’s WTF, is it another wrestling federation 😊
Glad to see you are thinking you are 100% politically correct but unfortunately your comment is still nonsense.
How so, I take that you can’t or as you don’t seem to be devoid of thinking there is some truth in what I say and this disturbs you, looking in mirror and all that
I do advise against visiting cafes in the Auckland region where copies of the Herald can be see lying around…
😳
An amused and gentle piss-take is much more civilised than just insulting someone.
Unfortunately, there are so many fragile thin-skinned egos who cannot take a hint or joke and who feel personally insulted at the slightest. We need more satire in NZ MSM.
I will have you know I have not bought a NZ Herald in years. Must go, its time for my daily trim flat white fix from the local cafe. 😉
Edit: oh, and a savoury muffin.
Yet Another story about a lack of workers for a particular industy, that does not include a single mention of the pay and conditions on offer.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/countrylife/audio/2018642486/perfect-storm-hits-nz-fruit-industry
The power is out AGAIN in West Auckland. Seriously, Vector are a complete bunch of clowns.they don’t have the severity of the storm to hide behind this time. Thousands of Aucklanders can’t cook dinner on a Saturday night because of Vectors spectacular failure to plan or invest. Vector needs to be re-nationalised.
It was never “Nationalised” previously. True?
I heard James said he would put on a barbeque for anyone without power in remmers or had kids at a decile 10 school…
Vector is an SOE.
“Run like a business, of course”!
Wasn’t that supposed to make power cheaper and stop all those power cuts we had under State control. When Engineers, not accountants, were in charge.
Repeal the Andarko Amendment
“Govt drops charges against Greenpeace”
Greenpeace Friday, 27 April 2018, 9:16 am
Press Release: Greenpeace
Govt drops charges against Greenpeace following Amazon Warrior action
Source: Greenpeace
The Andarko Amendment made it illegal to “protest against oil ships at sea.”
Even Muldoon never went this far….
If Muldoon had made it illegal to protest nuclear ships, or Springbok games, tens of thousands of New Zealanders would have been detained and put on trial.
This law cannot, and must not stand.
It is an affront to our democracy.
Related Posts and comments:
Defeat the Andarko Ammendment, and build the protests on the water against deep sea oil drilling.
Greenpeace v Simon Bridges
This is not what democracy looks like.
This is not what democracy looks like. II
Demand the Acquittal of the Andarko Two
If democracy means anything at all, it means more than having the right to vote, it means having the right right to speak out, it means having the right to protest.
That right is only afforded to farmers. With tractors.
Because it’s Saturday night.
The apologists for the Assad regime, are no friend of the Palestinians.
http://www.actionpal.org.uk/en/post/7019
The destruction of Yarmouk Palestininian refugee camp, repeats the destruction of The Palestinian refugee camp in Latakia, A place I know well.
http://www.actionpal.org.uk/en/post/7007/news-and-reports/palestinian-and-syrian-journalists-and-figures-the-destruction-of-yarmouk-camp-has-killed-a-witness-of-the-nakba-and-is-the-liquidation-of-the-right-of-return
“On The Allies We’re Not Proud Of: A Palestinian Response to Troubling Discourse on Syria
Joey Ayoub
The Hui I have lived in the King Country and the power bills were shocking expensive the power price in Te tairawhiti are just as bad to $500 a month I want to teach the tangata about how cheap I could build a solar power battery storage system for less than a years power Ka kite ano
The Hui as my eyes widen and I see more of the reality of Maori culture tangata I realise that I have to change my views and now I am backing Te reo to be compulsory for all Maori Mokopunas as OUR culture is being suppress and if we lose Te REO we will lose Maori culture. The Mokopunas needs to learn all the fabulous traditions to. Kia kaha Maori culture tangata. Ka kite ano
Here you go a shonky cover up and what a mess they have left behind in the oyster aquculture.
If the Kiwi fruit industry stuck there head in the sand they would be stuck in a mess because they alerted everyone they are pumping now here’s the link
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/04/25/106218/culture-of-silence-or-a-cover-up Ka kite ano
Is it a coincidence that 3 locations that have the highest prices for power are the 3 places with high Maori populations high unemployment.
The pay 500 a month for power and only have a TV fridge and freezer going thats reduclise.
ECO MAORI does not believe in coincidences Ana to kai Kia kaha Maori culture tangata Ka kite ano
Tairawhiti North land and Te kuiti
Good evening Newshub I just got back to Rotorua from the farm the sandflys don’t like ECO MAORI education the people about the symptoms of the system in NZ.
Sailing is in the Kiwi DNA Ka pai Lady’s
Jordan is a big guy Ka pai I wish him all the best in his journey up his ladder of life.
That was a big tackle is that Benje Bro he handled THAT. P.S I Hope its fine tomorrow
Ka kite ano
Dancing With The Stars Jesse Quni and Johnny you go for it Ka pai.
Rodger you got more rhythm than me m8 I got no rhythm I will back you Ka pai Ka kite ano
Sharon is Bryce baby sitting you should have got him to dance Ka kite ano