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Open mike 28/04/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 28th, 2021 - 46 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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46 comments on “Open mike 28/04/2021 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Today Act is going to push a debate about the New Zealand government's position on the Uighurs in China.


    This is going to be interesting.

    • Sanctuary 1.1

      Presumably they'll be demanding to know why the government doesn't amend our employment law to align with China in this matter?

    • Tiger Mountain 1.2

      The usual obsequious political posturing and toadying from Mr Seymour.

      If he ever called for such a discussion on say West Papua, Saudi women’s rights, or Israel’s Apartheid like treatment of Palestinians then it might be interesting.

      • Brigid 1.2.1

        True that.

        One wonders what Seymour is offering as evidence of this so called genocide.

      • Herodotus 1.2.2

        So it is ok that our labour govt doesn’t do a bloody thing about any of these that you have mentioned. so you call out someone who raises above the parapet for no other reason than it’s all ONLY political and we cannot stand on principles. Ffs many here have lost their way wanting a better place to live.

        from daily reading here I get the strong impression that most have lost there way here in their undivided support for this govt and overlooking any short comings.

      • greywarshark 1.2.3

        ACT and Seymour are so caring about people in vulnerable situations!

        His face is particularly suited to have a clown mask painted on it. Actually he brings a grinning faun to mind, just give him horns on his head.

    • Stuart Munro 1.3

      One of those rare moments of functional opposition.

    • Incognito 1.4

      A genuine debate or an attempt to embarrass Government and score political points?

      • KSaysHi 1.4.1

        It doens't matter which it is since it will boost ACT either way.

        • Incognito

          With 10 MPs in Parliament, you’d expect them to boost ACT every now and then.

      • Herodotus 1.4.2

        So do I read it right you complain that Act has not addressed all the genocide issues within the world ? Then why does the same not follow regarding this govt in their announcements to issues like homelessness, poor etc are incremental. And not addressing the full solution ?

        and even it it is an attempt to embarrass this govt will not further the attention of this issue? I am sure that the Uighurs suffering will be thankful and those who’s lives may be saved will not care of some political posturing and is not the govt posturing over this matter? Acts posturing may save lives what is labour’s posturing going to achieve and would any Uighurs life be any better because of it ? I think not

      • Stuart Munro 1.4.3

        The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason.

        Murder in the Cathedral

    • Subliminal 1.5

      It's interesting how easy it has been to attach genocide to the Uighur debate. The West owns all the narrative creation tools and therefore gets to decide how most people are exposed to any tale told. Genocide is a big call and needs some serious backing. Relying on a right wing religious fruit case for your evidence is not good enough. And as Tiger Montain says, if we are seriously to oppose genocide then we dont get to just cherry pick the genocide de jour. Palestinians and West Papuans have been at the front of the queue for many years. Or does rules based world only apply to countries that become independent and powerful enough to be percieved as a threat to Anglo American hegemony?

      • KSaysHi 1.5.1

        It's been well established from multiple credible sources, and how offensive that you would call it "easy" to attach genocide to what is very obviously a genocide. That was a hard won fight for Uighurs over many years and at great risk to the safety of those speaking out, their family, and friends.

        • Subliminal

          I would say that it is impossible to make the case for mass extermination of Uighurs as per the definition of genocide. You may disagree and I would be interested to read anything that you may reccomend reading to support that accusation. I think that at this stage it is fair to discount anything that is based on the research of Adrian Zenz since his public statements of being on a mission from god to destroy China discredit him and none of his research holds up when subjected to serious analysis. That leaves the accusation of active suppression of Uighur births to support claims of genocide. Unsurprisingly, the analysis that purports to show this is also supplied by Adrian Zenz. He does so using data supplied by the Chinese government so it isn't hard to dig into and refute because there is plenty of population statistics supplied by the Chinese govt. Also, since Zenz made his claim using govt data, it cant be claimed that govt data used in refuting his claims is suspect. In the 70s the US govt was accused of genocide against African Americans. Long story short is that the defence of an increasing population was held to be proof that genocide was not occurring. Discrimination, oppression and racism may all be present but not genocide. So what of the Uighurs? Well, their population is also increasing and is expected to continue to do so. For a more in depth look at the rather shoddy use of statistics by Zenz, you can read here

          • greywarshark

            All this discussion about the precise nature of genocide has a flavour of deflection from the tragic like throwing dice for his robe at Christ's feet at his crucification.

            • Subliminal

              On the contrary, I would say it is extremely important. Is the accusation of genocide of any importance? If not, why use it except to whip up hysteria? China is being confronted in many places. Another post on this site tells of the moves being generated towards a war over Taiwan. The emotive content of the word genocide could be enough to tip the scales into accepting war. A crime on the scale of genocide should therefore be carefully defined and accusations meticulously examined. Or do you think that accusations are as good as guilt? That because some religous nutter has made the accusation we dont need to trouble our feeble minds about the detail?

              • Incognito

                Nah, outrageous words and accusations are enough for the trigger-happy; it worked with WMDs. The MSM are willingly complicit or unwitting pawns in these cynical war-games.

              • McFlock

                Genocide is adequately defined.

                The accusations aren't "as good as guilt" (well, unless you're in a jurisdiction with no presumption of innocence), but they are serious.

                I'm sure that if the allegations don't represent reality in any way, the Chinese government would allow external observers to wander around the autonomous zone unsupervised and see how happy everyone is…

                • Subliminal

                  Except that if you click far enough through all your stuff articles you end up at the Newlines Institute which is far from independent and relies almost entirely on the analysis of the idiot, Adrian Zenz:​

                  The reliance on the voluminous but demonstrably fraudulent work of Zenz is not surprising, given that the report was financed by the Newlines Institute’s parent organization, the Fairfax University of America (FXUA). FXUA is a disgraced institution that state regulators moved to shut down in 2019 after finding that its “teachers weren’t qualified to teach their assigned courses”, academic quality was “patently deficient,” and plagiarism was “rampant” and ignored.

                  • McFlock


                    Weasel word, that.

                    Especially as clicking through the Stuff link seems to lead to reporting by Stuff journalists based on investigations they conducted in NZ.

                    So there does seem to be something for the international community to investigate, even if we exclude some dude you have a hard-on for.

                    • Subliminal

                      Seems like a weasel reply. If the claim is genocide then where does stuff get its evidence? The only source that I can find is clicking on "declaring China's oppression" which leads to a Stuff article "Why turning a blind eye is no longer an option and the incediary equivalence to the holocaust and a link to cnn and the Newsline report, I guess to back up the holocaust claim.

                      I assume that if a link is used then its function is to back up the claims made otherwise why use it?

                    • McFlock

                      Impressive. Two clicks got me to an entire Stuff/NZonair 40 minute documentary that consisted largely of stuff-conducted interviews with Uyghurs in NZ.

                      And a corresponding text article, if you don't want to watch TV. Stuff aren't exactly trying to hide their work.

                      And yet you only saw links to CNN and Newsline? Seems unlikely.

              • greywarshark

                Subliminal – Perhaps you personally can make it easier for others to decide whether something is genocide or whether it's just a bad case of violent hysteria that continues beyond some set point – a day, a week, a year?

                You should devise a scale indicating the level of turpitude from raping a girl by a mob of men who also kill her in India, or shooting a bunch of young politicals in Scandinavia, all the way to genocide and beyond if there is worse. We get so brutalised that we can't cope in the way that one should expect,; and in NZ it is even hard to get proper coverage of world events where English isn't commonly spoken, and the protagonists are not the favourite actors on the centre stage of our world.

                If one is trying to be objective about the size and intensity of the attack then perhaps it would be more sensitive to have a scale so one can know when to stop feeling:

                • that one can't bother with that now, or
                • should be unhappy,
                • should feel obliged to speak out,
                • should go on the streets to demonstrate or conduct vigils.

                There is such good reporting of trivia, eg whether Prince Harry has been seen with spinach stuck to his teeth, or what Hosking has said lately, that many of us don't have time to think beyond the surface of events outside the chosen magic circle, after hearing and watching the latest shooting tragedy in the USA covered in depth, width and height.

          • Perhaps we should use the compound term: creeping genocide.

            Surely, what is happening in Xinjiang is nowhere as dramatic as, for instance, Pol Pot in Cambodia or the massacres in Ruanda.

            But the intention of the CCP is quite clear – the submersion of the Uyghur population in the greater sea of the Han majority. Their aim is transparent – erasing the Uyghur culture and religion. Uyghur children are forbidden to speak their language in school, where all instruction is in Mandarin. The number of mosques throughout Xinjiang has been steadily reduced and restrictions placed on religious expression – such as wearing beards or head coverings.

            Creeping genocide is still genocide!

            • satty

              What you describe is "cultural assimilation" not "genocide".
              The Chinese treat Uyghur abhorrently, no doubt (I’ve seen it in person in Kashgar). Genocide is another level. It is systematically eradicating the population.

              • Ah, semantics!

                If the Uyghurs are 'culturally assimilated' to the point of disappearing, how is that not the same as genocide? Not as dramatic, of course, but the results are the same.

                I too know how badly the Uyghurs are treated. I lived in Urumqi for over 3 years.

                • Nic the NZer

                  As far as I am aware the Uyghur population has been growing faster than the Han population and has been more gradually brought into the official family size policies? Is that understanding not correct?

                • greywarshark

                  Tony you are applying the semantics. Genocide is death. Not having your culture mucked around with and your rituals made illegal. Please don't spread meanings wide, keep them sharp so we know what is being talked about.

                  In NZ I think that touching someone on the arm is legally classed as assault. That is stretching the meaning. In the end people can't get an understanding of the nature and seriousness of the crime.

  2. Sabine 2


    Immigration New Zealand is looking into allegations that migrant sex workers were operating out of a central Wellington motel that was also being used for emergency housing.

    The allegations add to ongoing concerns about the safety of residents and the public, as well as the suitability of some accommodation providers.

    Immigration NZ received three complaints between July 2018 and January 2020 alleging migrant sex workers were operating out of Harbour City Motor Inn on Webb St.

    not a slum, a totally respectable business with totally respectable clients, living totally respectable lives.

    Spokeswoman for Harbour City “absolutely refuted” the allegations, stating she’d never received any complaints from guests, nor was she aware of the activity.

    “This is an unfair attack on our business,” she said, declining to be named.

    Harbour City has been paid $2.5m by the Ministry of Social Development since June 2017, according to official data. Last month it was raided by police, who seized methamphetamine, cannabis and stolen property. Detective Sergeant Charlie Munro said no arrests were made………………….

    Two people – a former resident of the motel and a client who claimed he used the escort services – raised concerns with Stuff about the legality of the services and the welfare of the women involved.

    Both said they believed the women were young, Asian and had poor English skills.

    The former resident, who declined to be named due to concerns for her safety, said she moved in to the motel towards the end of last year and lived there for six months. While there, she had conversations with men who told her they were visiting escorts.

    She became concerned when told about the prices being offered for services.

    Not slums, not hotels, not housing, just endless money pits made from the misery of the homeless people by business people who would otherwise have already gone bust, and the government who does not care a lot. I guess its the Kiwi way of life now for some.

  3. greywarshark 3

    India is having big troubles. But they have been building for some time under the leadership they have elected.

    https://theprint.in/opinion/why-modi-government-gets-away-with-lies/422211/ 2020

    https://www.gzeromedia.com/modis-covid-apocalypse Apr.26/2021

    Politics first. Opponents of Prime Minister Narendra Modi say he jumped the gun by declaring early victory over the pandemic. Emboldened by his initial success in keeping (reported) deaths low, Modi allowed huge crowds to gather for state election campaign rallies and mass religious festivals like Kumbh Mela, which became super-spreader events.

    But somewhat surprisingly for the PM, who took COVID seriously from the start, this time he chose to score political points instead of heeding public health warnings.

    2019 https://theconversation.com/narendra-modis-performance-on-the-indian-economy-five-key-policies-assessed-116485

  4. greywarshark 4

    Important points about our film subsidies made by Gordon Campbell on Werewolf via Scoop.


    How come we continue to succeed, regardless? Put it down to our track record. New Zealand has created a reasonable but not fulsome rate of subsidies, has expert crews, offers stellar post-production and props facilities, and can point to a variety of striking locations within easy reach. So would major productions come here without the subsidies? No, they wouldn’t. Moreover, the OIA discoveries initiated by Stuff’s Thomas Coughlan suggest that New Zealand has driven a hard bargain with Amazon on the Lord of the Rings television series. For example :in order to secure the maximum tourism benefits, we have pressed Amazon to concede that New Zealand will provide the only locations used by the production to represent Middle Earth:

    There would effectively be two deals: one for the series as a whole, and one for each season that was produced in New Zealand. A decision paper….shows officials were worried about losing New Zealand’s “exclusivity”. If other countries were used as locations for the series, could New Zealand lose its claim to be the real world Middle-Earth?

    For those who have complained in the past that these major film production deals have unduly favoured Wellington, this one looks geographically diverse, and will be offering regional benefits to our struggling tourism sector:

  5. greywarshark 5

    Terry Pratchett seems to make the world a nicer place even after he's dead.
    Message from his link: https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwLtkSCmFxRvPclWWBncQFJzMQZ

    To mark Terry’s birthday tomorrow-today, we are celebrating April 28 as Terry Pratchett Day! cheekyWe’ll be raising a glass of his

    favourite cocktail and we hope you'll join us. Banana daquiri anyone?angel

    ~~~~'If you don’t look after knowledge, it goes away.'~~~~

    His effontery approach to diplomacy:

    Snibril took each of them by the shoulder.
    'Anyway,' he said, 'just because you're sworn enemies doesn't mean you can't be friends, does it?'

  6. Sabine 6

    This article might be of interest to Weka.

    The possibility of the Greens being King maker in the next coalition government in Germany with Annalena Baerbock as a potential Vice Chancellor.

    Good analysis on what options the different parties have in order to form a government. The most stable option i believe could actually be the CDU/CSU with the Greens.

    Intersting times.


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